1 12 50 http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/609e25e75f46abe6bf73d92e7e88d24b.pdf 752fbfb8cb48ae41b8f42bf1915d3a52 PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer interviewing Mr. Ronald Grimmell at the library on September 3rd, 1985. t' S.R: Hello Mr. Grimmell, and how are you today? R.G: I'm just fine. S.R: What is your date of birth? R.G: January 26, 19 13. S.R: Where were you born? R.G: I was born in the town of Bridgeburg. S.R: So you've lived in the area all your life then? R.G: Yes, I've lived here all my life except for four years when I lived in Neranda, Quebec. S.R: -Were your family originally from Bridgeburg? R.G: No, my family originated in Buffalo, New York. S.R: Could you tell me a bit about the history of your family? What brought them to Fort Erie, their reasons, and what they did here? R.G: Well, my father was a sheet metal man in Buffalo, and through a mutual friend that he had met in Buffalo, he found out that a man by the name of Joel Smith was looking for a sheet metal man to install hot-air furnaces. So dad came over here in 1908 to work for Joel Smith, who was a plumber. His place was located on Jarvis Street. S.R: Where on Jarvis Street would that be? R.G: That would be, oh, Joel Smith's place was.. .I'd say, right about where the Post Office is now. Dad worked for him for about three years until 1911, and then he married my mother, Jessie Alice Stumpf. Then he brought her over to Bridgeburg. They lived at the corner of Central and Jarvis. The building now ...well it wasn't the same building...the building that was there where Glenny's Insurance is now. They lived there about a year or two. Then he...a man by the name of Mr. Sizer from Buffalo, who was a pharmacist, and having quite a bit of money, he invested in property in Fort Erie on Bowen Road. Now on this property he built a bunch of huge houses, of which dad bought one at 213 Bowen. S.R: Did he ever mention the price? R.G: He mentioned a price. I think he said about $3,000 . . . $3,000 or $3,500, something like that. Now, this is a three storey house. It has a (1) �downstairs, upstairs, and a huge attic. You could actually have ( an apartment up there, a great big place. It would cost you a fortune to heat. But anyway, I brought mother over •.• in the back of this house he built a barn, and he also had a shop built there. In the barn he had a horse, he had a buggy, and he had some chickens. In the shop, why-he had his sheet metal tools, and carried on a sheet metal and also plumbing business. How he got around, he did most of his by foot, his travelling by foot. He had a big ! .•. can remember he had a metal box. Oh, it would be about 3' long, and m aybe 1811 in diameter. He would fill this up with tools and go out on a job .•• swing this across his shoulders. This is the way he would do the work with his tools. If he had any deliveries to make .•. most of the meat of his m aterial come in by train and they'd deliver the bathtubs and toilets and basins and whatever to the . . . wherever dad wanted them, you know. They put them right on the job for him. So, he worked at this for, oh, 'til about 1 9 1 6 I believe it was, yeah, 1 9 1 6 . There was a man living up the street who was a foreman down at the shipyards where they were building ocean going steamers, and ( they built four in total. S.R: What would his name be? R.G: I can't remember what his name was. Whether it was Barnett, say Barnett. Mr. Barnett saw dad working out in the back in his little shop and he liked his work. He said, "Well Chester" he said, "Why don't you apply for a job at the Shipyard ? " He said, "They need a sheet metal man". He said, "They can't get anybody down there that's satisfactory". And he said, "I don't know how many men they've fired", but he says, "You go down and apply for the job". So dad went down, he applied for the job, and he and another man built the duct work, the funnels, and any of the sheet metal work that had to be done on that boat. This job lasted 'til, oh, around 1 920, and they built the last boat. I can remember it coming up the river and dad had mother and the four of us boys out on the front porch up on the second landing. There was no houses across the street from where we lived. We could look right down the river and we ( saw this big boat coming up the river being towed by tugs with the whistle blowing. (2) �( S.R: How did it get past the bridges? Well, there was only one bridge then. R.G: There was a swing bridge. There was two swing bridges. There was one over the canal like, on the Black Rock side, then there was another one out on the river. The boat was too big to take up the canal, they had to take it up the river. So, they swung the bridge open and the tugs pulled the freighter through. So, that was quite a thrill for us to see. It's something to remember. I was about four years old I imagine. Well then, when I was six, he decided the house was too big for my mother to look after •.• there were four children. S.R: That would be a really big house then if it was too big with four kids. R.G: I was four and Earl was three, and then the twins were been born. They were just babies. they'd just ••• So there was four children and this huge place to look after and she couldn't handle it, she had to have help. She had a woman coming in by day to help her. Well, dad figured, well what. . . I've got to have a smaller place . . . what to do. So, he bought a lot over on Highland Avenue, 204, and he put ( a foundation under there, cinder blocks, and they laid the basement floor, and got the thing already. They they moved the barn over on rollers, pulled by two teams of horses, and they rolled this bar over to the .•• they had to go up a little hill . . . and over to 204, and then over to put the barn onto this foundation. Well, he did most of the blockwork himself, and the carpenter work, and did the . . . of course he could do the plumbing and the heating, and had that all done. He had a fellow by the name of Charlie Davis do the finishing. All the woodwork inside is done in white birch, which Charlie Davis installed for him. Then he had the electrical work done by a fellow by the name of Art Nolan. Well Art Nolan, he said, "Chet" he said, "What kind of electrical ••• what kind of wiring do you want in this place?". He said, "Put the very best in". So, believe it or not, that place was built when I was six years old, no, I was younger, I was about five. He built it when I was about five, that was 67 years ago, and just two years ago I had the place rewired. So it lasted ( that long. S.R: That's really good. (3) �( R.G: It's a wonder we didn't have a fire. But anyway, he built dad this shop out at the back, by a man by the name of Chester Taylor, and he started the plumbing and heating, sheet metal business in the back. He worked by himself for awhile. Well, then he hired a man by the name of Charles Tubb who had had some experience in plumbing and pipe fitting. He bought an old car I think it was a Buick •.• an ••• old Buick, from a fellow by the name of Climenhage. Now, Climenhage had a garage right down next to the Post Office, where the Post Office is now, right next, just above it coming up Jarvis Street. So, anyway, they finally got this old car going and he drove it home. We w ere all tickled to death to see this car coming in, and the driveway was just mud. Anyway, he made it into a truck and that's how he carted his material around, his bathtubs and so on. So, that was the start, and he went so that he . . . he worked it up until he had eight men working for him. S.R: R.G: You had mentioned James Frazer before. Who was he? James Frazer was a railroad man. He was the one who bought dad's place on Bowen Road. I missed his railroad experience, but it doesn't ( matter. He finally, when the Depression came, he had to get rid of, he had to lay off. keep laying off men as things went down. •. S.R: R.G: As times got tougher? Things got tougher. In 1 9 3 0 he built a small garage, service station, at 1 Courtwright. He had a Shell franchise, and operated there for a while. Then about 1 9 . . . after the war ..• 1946. He bought the place across the street whieh was owned by Herbert Guess. Then this place he wanted to use for doing garage work. He had started a front-end alignment business at 1 Courtwright and he found the place wasn't big enough, so he bought this place across the street ••• much against my mother's she was worried sick having all the debts ••• of that place. So anyway, we finally got a Chrysler franchise. We were selling Chrysler cars there until 1 9 5 3 when he died. My brother Jerry was the m anager. Jerry had been a car mechanic, C?r was a car mechanic, and Jerry operated the place for him. Well, then when he died, mother continued on with Jerry running the place. ( Jerry ran it for about two or three years then things got tough had ••• a depression ••• Diefenbaker years. (4) �S.R: ( R.G: The what years? Diefenbaker. Don't you remember him ...in 1959? S.R: Oh, he's a politician righ t ? R.G: Yeah. But anyway, things were tough and he gave up the business. So in the meantime, we had people living in... there was an apartment upstairs ... we had people living upstairs. They m ore or less helped pay the taxes and the heating. In the meantime, we had people rent the place for one thing or another. One time we had Edge Ford Motors, a used car dealer. They were in there for two or three years selling used cars. And in the meantime, we were still trying to sell the place. Well, eventually we sold it to Dave Spear, who is now occupying the place. S.R: When your dad was still doing his plumbing, do you recall any of the big places around that he did? R.G: Yes, the . . .he worked on the Yeo Block, he did the Post Office, plumbing and heating, and he also worked on the Briggs Block, which is there, � right up by, next to the Glenny, Glenny's Insurance on Jarvis Street. S.R: ( This Yeo's Block, is that where they have a craft and wool store, and the jewellery store? R.G: Yeah. S.R: You had menticned Howard Thompson to me before. Who is he? R.G: Oh, well that started in my history. I started school when I was six years old. They were rebuilding the school on Phipps Street, the Rose Seaton School. There was only a couple rooms there and they wanted to put more rooms on it. It was becoming too small because the Town was growing. There was at least 500 people in the Town, so they had to have more room. So they decided to put four rooms on the back of this school. In the meantime they had to find places for the kids to go to school while they were doing the work. So we went to school in the basement of the Disciple Church, which is right where Don Dean's garage is now, right on the corner. We went to school in the basement there. Our teacher was Miss Robb. She's probably dead now. She'd be in her 90s I imagine. But anyway, we went there for one year and then they opened up the school, and we went to s:thool on Phipps Street there until 1927. ( I had the honour, my last year at Rose Seaton, to have Miss Seaton ,. ( 5) �as my school teacher. S.R: ( That's what changed the name from Phipps Street to Rose Seaton School? R.G: Yeah, that was in Rose Seaton School. Then I graduated from there, and from there I went over to Wintemute Street High School, which is now the Secondary •.. Senior . . . S.R: Senior Elementary. R.G: . . . Senior Elementary School. We went to school there one year, in 1 927, while they were building the new high school. Then we went down to the high school that had everything of course, the swim ming pool, the gym, the big assembly hall. I went there for five years, cleared my grade 13, but I didn't go on to college because I felt I wouldn't get all my subjects. I was 19 years old. So, one of the biggest mistakes I made in my life was not to continue to get the •.. as m any subjects as I needed to get my senior m atriculation. But·anyway;· after working for my dad in the service station, and I was there for about one year, and I got m arried . . . no, I was there . . • I think I was there longer than that. I was there 'til 1 934, and I went ( to Toronto, and I worked for Shell for two years in Toronto in their service stations. Then I came back to Fort Erie and worked for my dad until 1 940 when I got married. I married a girl by the name of Muriel Walker from Toronto. We lived at Hogg's residence which is on the Boulevard. That was our first place of residence. We lived there for about a year 'til I finally got a job at Fleet. This was during the War years. We were able to afford a little wartime house up on Aberdeen C ourt and we moved up there. So we were there all during the War, at 7 Aberdeen Court. Then after the War.there was no work, and I am waiting for a job and wondering what to do. I worked for my dad for awhile. That didn't seem to work out because we were too much alike and we'd have some great fights and so on. S.R: While the War was on you worked at Fleet. What jobs did you do? R.G: Oh, the jobs at Fleet. I started out on the Fleet Finch and the Model 16, assembling Fleet Finches for, oh, about a year and a half I would say, and then they made ••• a fellow by the name of Dick Young, who was an engineer at Fleet, designed the Model 60, which was a oh, ••• (6) �about the same as Harvard, the Harvard Trainer. He was going ( to compete with the Harvard Trainer, and we were going to build this plane at Fleet. So I transferred over to the Model 60. They were kind of. the Fleet Finch was kind of. . . we'd reached our limit •• on that in orders. They were still building a few of them. I installed the motors on the Model 60 with two other fellows. S.R: Do you remember the foreman's names? R.G: Yes, the foreman. The day foreman was Harry Sawyer, and the night foreman was Stan Hagans, and Elliot was the foreman of the Fleet Finch. S.R: And Jack Edgeworth? R.G: Jack Edgeworth, he was the leadhand, and George Wallace was the leadhand. S.R: Do you recall your wages? R.G: I was working for about 60¢ an hour. That was about the only people .•. that made more money than we did were the m achinists. They were making 90¢, which was an unheard of wage in those days. ( S.R: When you started out , was that when you were only m aking 35¢? R.G: When I first st arted at Fleet I was making 35¢ an hour, worked 10 hours a day for 6 days a week ... 60 hours a week. We worked three months at 35¢ and hour, and then we were raised to . . . you were on probabtion for the first three months. Then if you passed probation they raised your wages up to 50¢ an hour. S.R: Did they have a union then? R.G: Yeah, they had a company union then. It was run by the company. I was one of the stewards. It was really a joke you know. They couldn't stand up to the company for anything. S.R: It was just in there for say and for looks? R.G: Yeah, just for looks. But Fleet at that time was working under. . . they couldn't lose money. The more money they spent, the more they made. They were working under cost percent. So that ••• all the money they spent, their profit was 1 0% of that. So, they ended up with quite a few million, you know, in the end when the war was over. S.R: ( What about female employees? When a lot of men went away to war, who worked? R.G: At the time I was there, there was about 28 hundred people working, ((7) �and I'd say that about 80% of them were women. The men were ( definitely in the minority. The women, they worked for just about the same wages as the men. S.R: Oh, they paid them a little bit less? R.G: They might of, I can't remember now. I can't remember that for sure. I'd have to talk to one of the girls that worked there, if there's any around yet. But anyway, the girls stayed at this hostel down on Central Avenue, which is where St. Michaels Catholic Church is now. There was about 600-800 of them living there. Of course, they were on two shifts so they could handle a lot of women, you know. They'd get their board and their ...bed and board there. S.R: You worked there 'til 1945? R.G: In 1945 the War was over. I came back, I came back to the gasoline business and I worked there for a year. Then I heard about this job up North through a lady who lived next door to us who had a brother up there. I heard there was lots of work up in Noranda, Quebec and there wasn't that much around Fort Erie at the time. I applied to different places and I couldn't get in. So anyway, I went to work fI up there for Girard-MacLean, and I was there four years. Well, after four years.. .! was doing sheet metal work, flashing, air-conditioning, installing the hot-air furnaces, you name it, all kinds of sheet metal work. So... making air-conditioning for the mines, that was a big item. The mines were really buzzing at that time there. They were really busy. S.R: What mines? R.G: Oh, Noranda... S.R: What did they mine? R.G: Gold. I even worked on the Dalvour. They had sent me down to Dalvour to work down there on the mines. S.R: You mentioned Lenny Moyer, Chick Jack and Kay's, who were they? R.G: Oh yeah, Lenny Moyer, he and I, went up . . . when we first went North, Lenny Moyer didn't have a job, and he was a brother-in-law of the lady who lived next door. So, her brother told Lenny to come up to work up there. So, Lenny didn't have a car, and I drove them up. That's how I came to go up there. Lenny didn't get a job, unluckily, but I didn't either, at the time. I think we worked one day for Noranda (8) �Mines, just doing labour work. Then, we came back home, money was running out and we came back home. I had gone to see Girard-MacLean, and they said that there would be work. They were getting very busy and they might have a job for me later on. So, I just got home and I got a phone call, Girard-MacLean wanted me to come back, they had a job waiting for me. So, I went back there and I worked for four years. At that time the place was just so busy you wouldn't believe. The mines were all going full tilt. You couldn't get an S.R: apartment. We lived in one room for a year. . Did you have any kids yet? R.G: We had one girl and she was three when we went up there. She spoke no French at all. She started playing with French kids and in less than a year she could speak perfect F rench. The lady next door thought it was a big joke. She was a dentists wife, and she'd get Francis over there... she just liked to listen to F rancis talking French with an English accent. My wife would meet one of my buddies... they were all French, the guys I worked with. ( S.R: Did you understand French or did they speak English? R.G: I knew a little high school French, but a very little. So I said, "You guys have got to teach me how to speak French." He said, "No way, we want to learn English so we can go over to Ontario where the big money is". So anyway, Muriel, my wife, would go downtown with Francis my daughter, she'd meet one of the F rench guys wives, and they couldn't speak any English so F rancis was the interpretor. S.R: She would only be four if she was three when you moved there? R.G: She was three, and when I left there she was six years old. She had started school. There was an English speaking school there in Noranda. She went to t he English school. They were sending me out of town on different jobs, but they'd be just a short distance away. The furthest was Valdour, about 50 miles away, and I'd be home week-ends you know. This went on all one summer. Well, then in the fall that job was finished. So, after about the fourth year they had got a job with the building of... doing the plumbing and the heating of the high school in Ottawa. Well, it was a case of either moving to Ottawa ( or leaving the family in Noranda. Well, I went to Ottawa which wouldn't have worked out, so we decided to come back to Fort Erie. (9) �We were in touch with a friend of mine from the Falls by the name of Harry Woram. Harry said that there was a man in the Falls who was looking for a sheet metal man. So, I worked for this Norval ( Chown for one year doing sheet metal work, furnaces and so on, and stove pipes. Business kind of slacked off and he laid me off, so I got a job out at the Cyanamid, and I worked at the Cyanamid for eight years doing sheet metal work, you know. I was out there for eight years and then I was laid off out there. I came back to Fort Erie, sold insurance for two years, the Confederation Life, but that didn't work too good. S.R: Now I know why you said you wanted...you said you should have went on with your education. R.G: Yeah, but you know it's funny, after I quit the business the darn phone was ringing off the hook about this insurance ... "Well, we'd like to talk to him about a policy"... well, not quite that bad, but I was getting the odd call you know about insurance. So anyway... let's see, where was I... the insurance business. I worked there for two years and then we heard about a job in Buffalo ...or no... this other chap and I were talking and he said' " Yeah, I'm going to try to get over in Buffalo", he said, "And why don't you try?" And I ( said, " Well, you know, I should look, my brother lives over there". S.R: Did you have to have a Visa then or did you have to be sponsored? R.G: Yes, I had to be sponsored and a Visa. So, I got in touch with Edward Becker, and Edward, my cousin said ·"Why sure, I'll sponsor you". So I went ahead with my Visa and I finally got my Visa, and this other chap and I went over the river. We worked for A.M.&.A's for...oh, I was only there about six months...! wasn't a salesman. You know where they had me? Up in draperies selling drapes, curtains and stuff like that. I don't know anything about drapes and curtains. So anyway, I heard about this job at the Liberty Bank as a guard, you know, kind of a night watchman deal. So I went over there and applied for the job. It was about three times as much as I was making at A.M.&.A's. I believe it was around $90 a week. Well, that was unheard of back in 1960. That was terrific wages. So, I started to work there and I was there for five years, I worked there for five years. Well then, they kept changing bosses there...like ( (10) �you know, the super of the maintenance, that's who we worked under. ( He was miserable, oh brother was he miserable. So finally he fired me. I came back to Fort Erie and I was only back here about ...oh, I think I drew about four unemployment cheques over there... then I heard about this job at Fleet, that they were hiring.. I went out there and I saw this man that was the personnel director...the man before Hagen...but anyway, he hired me.. .! got on the assembly. I was working on the assembly and that didn't work out too good, l made a couple of boo-boos, you know ...we were talking about those rivets. So anyway, there was about six of us that the foreman had to get rid of. I think they got a little bit slack too, they didn't need us there. They were busy in the sheet metal, so we went down to sheet metal and worked on the hydro-press, a... metal bashers they called us. They'd take the sheet metal. .. they'd cut the shape and everything ...cut it out...then they'd put it on a form, and they brought it through the hydro-press. Well, it come out a rough part. So we had the job of refinishing those parts. We'd get a block out of the crib that was the exact replica of the part we wanted. We put this ( part that came out of the hydrolicpress, the sheet metal part, on the block, and then formed it to a certain degree and a certain angle and so on. But that was my job for about... how many years was I there? Oh, I was there for about 12 years altogether. I was laid off about three or four times. But anyway, I retired after in 1978. So that's the whole bit on my employment. S.R: Now talking about the community itself, could you go through explaining some of the changes? R.G: Oh yeah, when...other than Bowen Road, the roads were mud. In the sum mertime it wasn't too bad, but in the wintertime they got awfully sticky, and only horse and wagon could get around. There were very few cars in Fort Erie at that time. But, they'd take and throw cinders in these mudholes you know, try to level them out so people can...for summer...horses and wagons could get through. At that time, it would be about 500-600 people when I was about six. Well, when I. ..at the Amalgamation of Fort Erie, 1927, the ( ...it went up to the big total of 1,200, then there was 1,200. In 1927, they decided they were going to have some more roads paved, so (11) �the Williams Dock, they were handling the sand and gravel, you ( know. They used an awful lot of sand in making asphalt. So this Mac Williams, he was Mayor of Fort Erie at the time, so he got this Godsen Company to come in... it passed through Council...they were going to pave three or four roads in Fort Erie. Well, they started out on Jarvis Street ... they paved Jarvis Street. Then I think they paved Phipps Street, and then the Highland Avenue, and then Bowen, and Emerick, Courtwright then Wintemute, you know. This took three or four years before this was all done. It was all done by hand. Like, they'd ...you'd come in with a load of this... They didn't have the big machines that they have now. They'd come in with truck loads of this asphalt. They had an asphalt plant. They'd make the asphalt, cart it in trucks, dump it on the road in a big pile, then these men would... had these big rakes you know...and they would spread the stuff out and then they'd go over it with a roller. S.R: ( You had to do it quick enough before it would cool. Isn't asphalt warm? R.G: Yeah, well the men's feet would have four to five inches of asphalt on them from walking over it. You'd wonder how they could even walk with the weight, and of course the rakes were . . .they would ... they'd have to keep dipping it in something hot. I don't know how they kept them clear. So, what else can I tell you? Oh, the fire, the first fire engine in Fort Erie that I can remember, was hauled by a team of horses. That was back in the '20s. A fellow by the name of Frank Benner had a team of horses, and when they rang the fire bell, which was a... just an ordinary church bell in the steeple, in the Fire Hall. S.R: Where was that? R.G: Right about where the old Fire Hall was. Do you know where that is? S.R: The old Fire Hall was by the Police Station. . .the Town Hall, across from the Avondale Store. R.G: ( Yeah, the old Police Station, it was right there, there was a building there. They would ring the bell there ...he just lived around the corner on Duff erin Street, he'd bring a team over and he'd hook onto this (12) �wagon and away they'd go to this fire. Well, that lasted until 1927 ( when they got their first firetruck. S.R: Do you recall any of the Fire Chiefs? R.G: Yeah, oh, wait a minute now... Ule, Bob Ule was one, Robert Nolan. Who else was one? If given some time I could probably come up with some more. S.R: Well, what about this pump that Frank Benner's horses pulled, how did it work actually ? Were there motors in it? R.G: Actually, they'd... no, they'd hook onto the fire hydrant. There was no motor on them. They'd just hook onto the fire truck. This is where they'd carry the ladders, hoses, and that's just about all. Then they'd hook onto the fire hydrants and that's where they got the pressure. S.R: What about Police Departments? R.G: The Police Department had one policeman. S.R: Was this just for Bridgeburg or all of Fort Erie ? R.G: This was for Bridgeburg. As a child, a kid of say six years 'til I was . about 12 .. no, younger than that ...up 'til the time I was about 10, ( a fellow by the name of Dowd, he was the only Constable in the Town of Bridgeburg. Well, then a man by the name of Griffin, Andrew Griffin, he became the Chief of Fort Erie, and he had two policemen working for him. One was a motorcycle policeman, and they bought him a nice motorcycle, and he used to ride around, up and down the streets. He eventually became Police Chief himself. Then...oh god, what's his name? Cripes, he used to live right up the street from me... Matthews, Chirp Matthews...that's a nickname. S.R: He was eventually Police Chief too, right? R.G: Yeah, he eventually became Chief. He and Griffin ran it for awhile, and they kept hiring more and more. Some of the others were oh, •.. Tommy Warry, he was one. He's still living, and Walter Kent...one of the old timer's. He just died about a year ago. S.R: What about the sports in Fort Erie? R.G: Very good. About the time I was about 10 years old, they had a baseball team called the Mentholatums. They were sponsored by ( the Mentholatum Company in Fort Erie. They...this man that ran it, a man by the name of George Stratton, he was the manager. He was a boss at the Mentholatum Company, and he ran the baseball (1 � \ �team. He was the manager. At one time when they were playing ( Intermediate Baseball, and one year they went all the way to the top and they got beat out in the final game for the championship of Ontario. Leamington beat them out. Well, then they tried senior ball, but they didn't do too well at it. They had a pretty good team but they never got into the play-offs. But, Fort Erie has always had a baseball team, you know, from the time I was just a kid until grown up. Then of course we had to have softball. All the different . companies in town would have teams, sponsor a team. The Lions Club had one, I played on the Lions Club one year. The Michigan...New York Central had a team, the Canadian National had a team, Horton, Mentholatum, all these different companies had teams. Then of_ course they had play-offs at the end of the year. S.R: Were they Town sponsored? R.G: No, they were sponsored by the companies. The companies bought all the... they bought the sweaters and the bats and the balls. ( S.R: Who bought the trophies and stuff for the play-offs? R.G: I think the Town did, but I'm not sure of that. I'm not sure of that. S.R: Was that Fort Erie's big sport, baseball? R.G: Yeah, that was the big sport, until the arena was built. S.R: Do you know around when that was built? R.G: The arena was built in...let's see, about 19... S.R: There was a cave-in too, do you remember that? R.G: Yeah, I remember that in '36... 1930 I think they built the arena. S.R: Oh, so it was relatively new when it caved in. R.G: Yeah, they called it the Peace Bridge Arena. It was a ...it had an odd roof. It was called a Llamala roof, the first one in Canada. It was a criss-cross method of putting 2" by 16"s I'd �ay they were...maybe thicker then 2". Let's say 4" by 16"s, all the way across the roof. The roof was curved, and then covered of course with wood and whatever...tar paper or whatever they used in those days on top of that. And they had...inside they had turnbuckles, and they...this thing would work; you know, with the heat in summer it would expand, and then it would shrink, and you'd have to take the turnbuckles ( up, you know, to keep it tight. So the reason that when it collapsed after a terrific snow storm in 1936. -We had about 30" of snow on (14) �the level, a real wet snow. The snow built up on top of the arena and nobody had shovelled it off, and nobody tightened up the turnbuckle. ( The Buffalo Bisons had just finished practicing. They were only out of there about 20 minutes, and down came the roof. S.R: That was close then. R.G: Yep, and the fellow who sharpenned the skates, he was off to the side part of the arena...skate sharpenning you know. He used to keep all the Buffalo hockey players skates sharpenned. He'd sharpen your skates and mine too. He heard the crack, there was a big crack, and he started to run. He just made it outside, he and his son. Their car was parked right in front, and the building went right over top on their car... smashed the car down. S.R: Do you know what their names were? R.G: Gosh, what was it? I went to shcool with the guy. He was only about that high, short, but could he ever skate and play hockey. He'd only be about 5'1". ( S.R: That is short for a man. R.G: What else can I tell you? S.R: Could you describe what Fort Erie had to offer in the line of stores? R.G: In stores? Yes, there was Hannis Groceteria, a little grocery store on Central Avenue. It's an apartment building now. It's between Phipps Street and Emerick, about halfway, on the east side. That was built by the Hannis'. We used to buy our groceries there. They had the cheese you know, in one of these big long pieces, and you'd go in for a pound of cheese and they'd cut it out for you, and they'd weigh out the coffee for you, a pound of coffee... well, do you want it ground? How do you want it ground, coarse, you know, fine or what? ...pickles in the pickle barrel. S.R: You couldn't pick out your own food. You gave them your list then and they'd package everything up. R.G: Oh yeah, yeah, they did the waiting, there was no self-serve. The first self-serve was A&P about 1927. That was the first self serve store on Jarvis Street. That's where Brunton is now. Some other stores...a fellow by the name of Mullett, he had a small grocery, but mostly fresh fruits and vegetables ( ..• Walter Mullett. VaHey, he was the hardware store. You've heard that name before. Then ( 1 5) �we had . . . they sold hardware. That was a hardware store ... until ( Holsworth's came. Holsworth was now where ... on Jarvis Street where the present hardware store is. S.R: Babcock's ... it's Elrick's Hardware? R.G: Elrick's. . I couldn't think of the name. S.R: Do you recall any other stores in the area? R.G: Yes, a drygoods store by the name of John T. James, which was . located where the Masonic building is now, at the corner of Jarvis and Central. S.R: Is that above the bank there, or beside the bank on Jarvis Street? R.G: No, it's right across from the Town Hall. No, just across . .. like, if you're going up Jarvis, the Town Hall's here and you just cut straight across, it's right on the corner. S.R: I thought the Fort Erie Credit Union was there, or is the Masonic Hall upstairs? ( R.G: Yeah, the M asonic, yeah. The Masons own it. They own the building. S.R: Oh, so the Credit Union just rents from them. R.G: They just rent it from them. S.R: John T. James . . . do you rememper any others? R.G: Yes, and . . . he was a Methodist, and he could . . . there's quite a hist ory with him that he could get up and preach just as well as a minister could. They said he was a lay preacher. Down the street, down about where Bruntons is now, was White's Meatmarket ... Dick White . . . Richard White, and he had a meatmarket there. He would deliver meat, he had a horse and wagon. You'd phone your order in and he'd deliver your meat. S.R: Did he just get it then from local farmers around? R.G: Oh yes, yeah. I imagine that's where it camefrom, because there was no ... I don't think Canada Packers had anything to do with him, you know. It was all done ... probably he made his own sausage and everything, right there in the butchershop. He was one of the old original but chers in Fort Erie. Another fellow by the name of Willick, he was up, right near the top of Jarvis Street, right about where Ruskin's Store was. Right where Bernie Ruskin was. ( S.R: Around the bakery somewhere? R.G: Yeah, they had an appliance store. He also had a meatmarket, (16) �but he didn't have any delivery. You just go in and buy meat. ( There was sawdust on the floor. He had a regular old meatmarket. S.R: Why sawdust on the floor? R.G: To soak up the blood! S.R: Oh, okay. R.G: I don't know. I don't know, really. S.R: They used to do it in the saloons too, so I was just curious why. R.G: Oh, it's a cleanser like. I used to use it for sweeping you know, sweeping the cellar. S.R: Oh, it helped to pick stuff up? R.G: Oh gosh, did it ever. That's one of the greatest things there is for cleaning up dust and that, to hold the dust down. Just dampen it a· bit and throw it on the floor and then sweep it with one of those push brooms. . S.R: Any other stores that you can recall? R.G: We had a couple Chinese Restaurants on the . . . on J arvis Street. It would be on the bottom. It would be right near Klauck Street, on Jarvis, on the corner. ( S.R: Was that later owned by Skippy Wong? R.G: No, the Skippy Wong was right across and he was on the corner of Jarvis and Klauck Street and he was there for years and years. S.R: Is that the place that had the sign that had the little red hen? Something used to move on it or something. R.G: No, I don't think it was ever called the Little Red Hen. That was just Skippy's. There was a restaurant called the Little Red Hen, but it was only four or five years ago. Anyway, what I wanted to tell you about the Chinese restaurant was, next door to it there was a huge hole there. It would be, oh, about 100 feet long by, oh 100, going toward the next street, toward Dufferin Street. It would be, oh, about 3 0 feet deep. I don't know what had been there. I can't remember just what was there before, but there was a hole and when it would rain the water would collect at the bottom. In the wintertime it would freeze, so the kids would be out on it. We'd take our sleds and slide down that hill out onto the ice, you know , at the bottom. ( S.R: Speaking of holes, here at the library the park goes down, it's (17) �almost like it was dug out. Is that natural or was it dug out for ( something? R.G: No, it was dug out, yeah. S.R: Do you know what for? R.G: Well yeah, the Oakes did that. S.R: Oakes? R.G: J. Oakes, yeah. S.R: Why was it dug out or what did he use the dirt for? R.G: I don't know what happened to the dirt, but he dug that all out to make a . . . Harry Oakes dug it out to help the Town of Fort Erie. He was a great . . . oh, what's the word . . . philanthropist? What is the word where a fellow does good, you know, for .•• I can't think of that. But anyway, he decided he yvas going to help Fort Erie so he built Oakes Park. You know, where you play ball. And he dug out that place down there and that was for the kids. He was going to put swings, and I guess there are swings there now, slides and everything. ( S.R: And the baseball diamond? R.G: And the baseball diamond. He did all that, and he also built the Rio Vista. He was going to have an 18 hole golf course out there. He finished nine holes, which is there now, and that's all. I joined right after he finished it. It was just like a cow pasture. The greens were •.• oh, your lawns would be better than the greens. Well anyway, that's where we used to play. It was 50¢ a round back in the Depression days. We had a lot of fun, we weren't trying to be Arnold Palmers, but we really enjoyed ourselves. But, as I say, he was going to . . . really, he was going to build nine holes right where the course is now there, at the top of Bowen Road and Crooks Street, and then on the other side of Bowen Road ... old Bowen Road goes right straight through there. It's still a mud road, you know. On the other side he was going to have the other nine, but he never completed it. He died before ••• I think he went to the Bahamas, Harry Oakes did, .. before he had a chance to complete it. S.R: ( We were talking about stores, are there any else that you'd like to mention before we move on? (18) �( R.G: Oh Cornell's, Cornell's Drugstore ... I've got to mention that. The old original •.• S.R: And that was by the Town Hall? R.G: Right. That's where the offices of the Town Hall are now, right now. That's the old Cornell's. It was called Land's, actually. No, Land was the original owner and he was a pharmacist, and Erle Cornell used to work for him. He'd come down in the summertime he was going to university, and he'd work his summer's there with Land. Then when Land .•• when Erle finished his course in pharmacy, he came and worked for Land, and then when Land retired he took it over. So, that's about all I can tell you about that. Oh, Land was, he was related to Lindbergh, you know the flier, a cousin to Charles Lindbergh. ( S.R: So, did anybody ever come to visit him? R.G: Charles Lindbergh's mothers name was Land. S.R: Did Lindbergh ever come to Fort Erie? R.G: No, not here, no. S.R: I was just wondering if Fort Erie had a famous person come to visit. R.G: Dick Rohmer was the only one we ever had. S.R: Dick who? R.G: Rohmer, the author, he's written about six books. S.R: Oh, and he's visited Fort Erie? R.G: He used to live here. S.R: Where? R.G: Gee, I don't remember where they lived. But, his father was in the oil business ••• gasoline. He used to import gasoline from Buffalo and he had a number of service stations up in Hamilton. That's Dick Rohmer's father, Ernie Rohmer••• Ernest Rohmer. He'd import this gasoline from Buffalo. They'd bring it in by boatload in Buffalo and store it there. A fellow by the name of Hambleton would bring it in. He imported this gasoline from Texas or wherever, in the States, and he had a number of service stations in Buffalo. Well, Rohmer went over and made a deal with him to buy gas ( from him. He had two big trucks, and cart the gas over ••• it over. He stored it at our ••• bring we had a 20,000 gallon tank, and (19) ••• �he used to store it in this 20,000 gallon tank, then the trucks would ( take it from there up to Hamilton to the service stations. So young Dick, he went to school there, Fort Erie High School, and went to college. Then about that time the War broke out and he joined the Air Force. He finally ended up as a Wing Commander. He still is a Brigadier General in the Air Force, in the Reserves. S.R: When he was writing... R.G: He wrote all about Canada, you know, different phases in Canada life. S.R: Did he do it while he lived in Fort Erie? R.G: No, no, after he got out of the Air Force he come back to Toronto. And I believe he ... he also took... he was a lawyer. He finished his university course and went to Osgood Hall and became a lawyer. Well, then he started to write these stories, and he became so successful that the law was just like a second occupation for him, you know... profession. You see, his writing· was his #1 profession. He isn't ° doing very much now, he's probabiy, oh, 65 years old. He and I used ( to go swimming together. S.R: Down in the river? R.G: He wouldn't even know me now, of course. S.R: What about Fort Erie and it's amalgamation? What could you tell me about that? R.G: Well, there was Fort Erie South and Bridgeburg and they wanted to get together. They thought they could ... instead of having two different Councils... S.R: What about the West End, Amigari? R.G: And Amigari, only that wasn't that big. Amigari consisted of Jennet Street, Russell Street, and you know, just that part up there around the Racetrack, that was Amigari. That was like the West End, what is the West End of Fort Erie now. But, they had no Council or anything, they went along with us, with the Bridgeburg Council. Then when Fort Erie amalgamated with Bridgeburg, why-Amigari came in with it too. So it all come.;. you know, all one. ( S.R: Do you remember when this took place? R.G: It was S.R: So it was during the start of the Depression? ..• when was that? It was the early '30s, say 1932. (20) �( S.R: Did you have to grow vegetable gardens then? R.G: Yeah, we had a little garden, yes. S.R: What did you do for entertainment, like if you were on a date? R.G: Oh, the show. S.R: What show? R.G: Right across from the . . . Don Deans. I don't know who is in there now. That was the old Bellard, what they called the old Bellard Theatre, which was built by the Ziffs, the Ziff family. The Ziffs built this, and everybody in the family worked. When they first started, it was silent pictures. The one girl played the piano for the pictures. The old lady, the mother, she sold tickets. The dad, he was on the floor taking the ticket stubs.· One of the other daughters was the usher . .. I think they had two in there, ushers. The show held about 450 people. And then Barney, the oldest boythe operator. He operated the camera. S.R: Was it full? You said it held about 450 people. Did 450 people used to go? ( R.G: Oh, did they ever. That place was jammed, especially on week-ends. Not so much during the week, but during, say, Friday and Saturday nights. S.R: Because it was a nice cheap entertainment? R.G: . . . 25¢. S.R: Nice and cheap compared to now. R.G: What does it cost now? Around $5.50, isn't it? S.R: Can you recall doing other things for entertainment? R.G: Oh, swimming. Our swimming hole was down at ••• right at the end of Central Avenue where Central runs into the Boulevard, there's a place called the rock. Yeah, now there's a huge rock there about six feet in diameter, red in colour. Now, this was before they put that weir out at Niagara Falls. The water was quite shallow and this rock would sit right up, you know, in the water. There might be three or four inches of water on it. Sometimes when you had a heavier rain it would get about that deep. I can remember as a little kid about five or six, diving off the rock. I learned to swim ( there with an innertube ... and the rest of the kids. The men from the railroad ••• some of the fathers of the kids that were going down (22) �( R.G: Yeah, it was during the Depression that they amalgamated. They thought they could run the Town a lot cheaper by combining, you know, instead of having two road gangs w orking one road line ••• gang looking after the water and sewers, you know •.. two of everything. They thought it was a lot cheaper to just have the one. S.R: What about the Depression? What are your memories on the Depression? R.G: The Depression was tough. S.R: How tough? R.G: In town, very, very tough. Houses . . • well, you couldn't give a house . . away . . . you couldn't sell a house. You could buy a brick house for $2,500 and a frame house went for about $ 1,500. Most of the people who were living there were paying very little rent. They were on the Town, and they were getting the dole. They'd get so much a week and then the Town would buy coal, or . . . most of them had coal furnaces, and they'd supply them with, say, a ton of coal a m onth to keep the houses warm, and then gave them a certain amount of money. Well, for that m oney they'd have to go out on what they called the road gang. You could see a bunch of them going down, ( and they'd shovel sidewalks, and cut weeds, and do any of that type of work, you know, that the Town required. For that they received . . . I don't know, $ 1 0-$ 1 5 a week... very, very low. S.R: Just enough so you got by. R.G: Just enough to carry them through. But, oh, you'd see them coming down the street and they'd be laughing and singing. S.R: Was it very common to have to go on the dole? R.G: We'd have been on it . . . yes, it was. They laid off people of the railroad, and you couldn't get a job anywhere. Horton laid a bunch of people off, Fleet laid a bunch off. S.R: What kept your family from going on it? R.G: Our family ••• that gas station I told you about, at the corner of Courtwright. That was just barely enough and then with my dad's plumbing. . . you know, he'd get the odd job plumbing and make a few dollars there . . . and my mother was a real good operator. Cripes; she'd run that house on about $7 a week, and there was four of us boys. We didn't have any of the luxuries, I can tell you that, but we ate good. We were never hungry. (21) �there swimming, built a diving platform. We used to use the diving ( platform, come out of the water and lay on the shore there or on the road. S.R: On the road? R.G: Yeah, and have the Yankees yelling at us .•. "Get off the road you kids. Do you want to get killed? What's wrong with you? " Well, you'd come out and you'd be shivering you know, it's cold, and the road would be hot .•. it was asphalt. You'd lay on the road. When the cars come we'd jump back. But they didn't . • . the speed limit on the Boulevard was only 25 m.p.h. in those days. I don't think half on the cars were going 20 m.p.h., you know, just taking it real easy. The road was quite narrow. S.R: Oh, it's not as wide as it is now? R.G: Oh, no, no. Part of it was brick, built of bricks, a brick road. S.R: Was that very common? R.G: It was then, yeah. In Buffalo, Buffalo had quite a lot of brick roads. It wasn't cobblestone, it was bricks. I can remember . . . ( S.R: Would you go bump, bump, bump, all the way? R.G: Well no, they were quite smooth, although the tires would make quite a noise, you know, running over the . . . you know . . . S.R: The gaps? R.G: The gaps in the . . . And right from where Williams live . . . the Williams homestead is, at the foot of Bowen Road there .•. right down to the South End, that was all brick. S.R: When did they pave that? R.G: Ah, about the time that this Godson 19 ••• I think it was '27 I said, or '30 ••• ••• when he started paving in when they had him come to town and he started paving Jarvis Street and the other streets in town, he paved the Boulevard too. He put asphalt on top of the brick. S.R: Did the Niagara Parks own it then? Was there such a thing as the Niagara Parks Commission? R.G: No, no they didn't. I mean, we all thought it was part of Fort Erie, you know. ( S.R: So there was no N iagara Parks Commission? R.G: No, I don't believe there was. If there was, it was just more or (23) �or less concentrated around Niagara Falls there. But there . . . we ( never saw trucks the way you see them now, you know, coming up and picking up papers. You'd go ••• drive along that river •.. the beautiful view that the river. . . the roadway at the side of the road, covered with newspapers, cigarettes, just garbage and everything you can imagine. S.R: Now it's all well cut and everything's all nice and clean. R.G: Oh yes, there's a truck going up there all the time picking up •.. you'd throw . anything out the window and they're right there to pick it up. S.R: R.G: Did you ever visit the Bertie Fair? . Yes I did. S.R: Could you tell me what you remember about it? R.G: Yes, they used to have ••• they'd have horse races, like pacers and trotters. And the farmers . . . a lot of the farmers had horses, you know, that they raced, and they'd have contests going amongst themselves. There wouldn't be any betting or anything, and they'd get prizes... the winners. There would be a lot of needlepoint, knitting, and ( quilt work there, all kinds of vegetables, flowers, you name it and they had it there. S.R: Was it all for show or did people buy things too? R.G: Oh, they bought things, yeah, people bought things. S.R: So it wasn't all just for show and for pri zes? R.G: No, not just for show. I never saw anybody buying anything, but you could buy .it if- you wanted to. S.R: Is that all you'd care to mention about the Bertie Fair? R.G: Oh, they used to have a Merry-Go-Round, and they'd have a few little rides, and then they had races for the school kids there. They'd start at the five and six year olds and go right up to the men. S.R: Oh, running races and stuff? R.G: Yeah, out on a track. What else can I tell you? Oh yes, the dancing at night. They danced out in front of the grandstand there, and they'd have Clarence Berger's Orchestra. S.R: How long was this Fair opened then, every year? R.G: Ah, the Fair would be open about, just about a week altogether and everybody went. They came from miles around, all around the district. (24) ••• �( S.R: Do you know why it finished? R.G: Well, I guess they just outgrew it, you know, the races started coming in, and you know, with the . . . there was more racing going on there, and they just didn't bother anymore. So, anybody that had anything to show, why-they'd take it to Welland, to the Welland Fair. I don't know if that's still going on now, is it? S.R: I haven't got a clue. S.R: What about Erie Beach for entertainment? Erie Beach and Crystal Beach? R.G: Oh, Erie Beach had a Dance Hall, a very nice Dance Hall. They used to go in there and dance and they danced to real good orchestras. S.R: Such as? R.G: Oh, I don't know. I can't remember . . . see, I was pretty young. I was 17 when they closed it, and they had been going downhill for, oh, about six or seven years. S.R: So, when you were 1 0, you were too young to dance? R.G: I was too young, and Mr. Bardol died. That's the owner. The kids were running it. When the kids got a hold of it they were fighting ( among themselves. It just zoomed down. But, they had rides of all kinds there. They had a Ferris Wheel, and they had a Merry-Go-Round, and the airplanes would go out over the water, you know. They had a ride like that where you'd swing right out over the water. That was fun to go on. And, what else did they have? Oh, all kinds of games, you know the way the midway is. S.R: How did you get there? R.G: They had a little train. There was a train that would meet the ferry in the South End at the ferry dock there. The people would get on this little jitney train. It was just a small engine and then small cars, and it would run right up to Erie Beach, right along the lake there. S.R: Did it have a name? R.G: I can't remember one. I think they called it the Erie Railway, or the Erie Beach Railway. That ran for years until Mr. Bardo! died. But, they had a real good Dance Hall where the dancing was really enjoyed. You could dance upstairs or downstairs. They had two floors, and two orchestras. (25) �S.R: Oh, I didn't know that. R.G: Yeah, yeah. S.R: How did it work? Did you have to pay to get in, or so much a dance? R.G: You bought tickets at the D ance Hall. That's how you got in. S.R: Oh, so it was so much a dance then? R.G: I think they paid so much a dance, yeah, if I remember right. You'd get a ticket for every dance. S.R: Did you ever go swimming there? R.G: . Yes, they had • • • at one time, they had the biggest outdoor pool in North America. You could still see it if you wanted to go down there sometime. You could still see the outlines of that pool. It was the biggest outdoor pool in North America. And they had •.. I can remember one Sunday going, when I was about 11 years old, and dad took us up and . . . took the family up there. And they had the champion swimmer of the United States there, and divers of all kinds, men and women. ( S.R: Because it was such a well-known pool? R.G: Oh yeah, a well-known pool. And then they had a boat that would go across the lake and pick up people from Buffalo, right at the Buffalo Harbour, and that was running back and forth. Now, I don't remember the name of that boat, but. .. it used to be called the Erie Beach Boat. S.R: What about the Americana and the Canadiana? Were they at Crystal Beach then? R.G: They were at Crystal Beach, yeah. S.R: Did you ever go on those? R.G: Yes, many times. We used to go across. . . especially, we used to go when they had the the moonlight rides. Every Sunday night they had what they called the moonlight ride. You would go over to Buffalo and down to the Harbour, and you'd get the boat there. It would take you up the lake, and the orchestra would be playing and you'd be dancing on the boat. They had a bar on the boat, and we'd get drinks.' ( S.R: So, it was a good entertainment then, for young couples? R.G: Oh, it was great, until the black people started, they discovered. When the blacks got on the boat they got mixed up with the whites (Z6) I ••• �a white element in Buffalo, and the Poles and the Italians, and ( there was a great . . . oh, they had some real wingdingers of fights. S.R: On the boats? R.G: Oh yeah. The last fight they had, one guy just about got killed, he got knifed or something. That finished it. •• no m ore rides. S.R: Do you remember approximately what year that was? R.G: Well, that would be in the '3 0s, I'd say, about 1 9 3 5-3 6. S.R: Could you describe Crystal Beach for me? R.G: Well, Crystal Beach is bigger than . . . is much bigger than Erie Beach. They had more rides and more things to do. It was a much better run beach than Erie Beach. It had a beautiful place to swim there, you know, all sand. But Erie Beach didn't have that, they had, just rocks. S.R: That's why they built the pool then, right? R.G: That's why they had the pool. A lot of people used to go up there to swim. They had bathhouses where you could change your clothes, and a beautiful Dance Hall. ( S.R: How would you compare the two, Erie Beach and Crystal Beach? R.G: Oh, they're . . . the Dance Hall in Crystal Beach is far superior. It's a beautiful big dance hall with . . • it was open on all sides, and on a summer evening . . . I can still see it . . . this band would be playing there at the bandstand at the back of the Hall. They had some of the big bands, you know, like Harry Jam es and . . • Harry Jam es. I think Glenn Miller was here one time . . . who else? . . . Guy Lombardo. These were all guest bands. Then they had their own regular band from Buffalo. S.R: Do you remember the band's name? R.G: I'm trying to think of it. The fellow just died about nine years ago. It was run by a man from Buffalo, most of them were Americans . . . t h e musicians. The breeze would be floating i n there, you know , from the • • • and you could hear these rides going and the music and they'd always have a singer, a man and a woman singing a beautiful hardwood floor, and a great big ••. I and In the centre of the floor, strung from the ceiling, was this huge light ( ••• • • • ••• small glass. don't know what they call it, but there's a name for it. Glass••• small pieces of glass ••• made up of little pieces of glass, big and round. (27) �( S.R: Oh, the crystal ball thing? R.G: The big crystal ball, yeah, and they'd have a light shining on that. S.R: So everything else sparkled around it then? R.G: Everything was just, you know •.• it would be coloured, like coloured lights as it went around. It would revolve, and these coloured lights from the reflection, you know, from the light on the crystal. S.R: Is there anything else you'd like to mention about Crystal Beach? R.G: Oh, up at Bay Beach, that would be about a half a mile above Crystal Beach, they had a very small dance hall there. When they played we'd go from one to the other. They had a boardwalk right along the beach, and you'd walk up there and see what was going on there. It was a little bit cheaper to dance there. We had fun. S.R: They didn't have all the other stuff? R.G: Oh no, nowhere .•. you couldn't compare the two. But the only thing that I can remember about the Beach is the beautiful swim ming there, the sand you know, the sandy beach. That and the Dance Hall. ( S.R: What were the most common ways from getting from Buffalo to Fort Erie, or from Fort Erie to Buffalo? R.G: Well, by ferry to start with. S.R: And that was at the South End? R.G: Yeah, the South End. S.R: And the North End had the Dummy? R.G: It had the Dummy. S.R: Could you please tell me your recollections on those? R.G: Well, the Dummy, I can remember going when I was just a little guy, and my mother would take me over to Black Rock. There was no shoe stores in Fort Erie. She'd take m e over there and buy me shoes. I'd wear an old pair of shoes over and then I had the new pair coming back. S.R: Did the Customs charge very much? R.G: No, they didn't. S.R: But every penny helped, right? R.G: Well, they never • • • they did it themselves. So, this Dummy ran about once every hour. I think it ran like, say it left Fort Erie, or Bridgeburg on the hour, and then it came back on the half hour (28) �from Buffalo... from Black Rock back to Fort Erie. S.R: So it made a trip... every half hour it left a port? R.G: Yeah. S.R: You had mentioned an accident on the Dummy? R.G: Oh yes. Back in about 18 .. I think it was about 1 895 or 1898 ... S.R: Did your father tell you this? R.G: Well, it was a well known fact, you know. My dad wouldn't remember . it because he was born in 1886, but maybe his mother told him about it, I don't know. But anyway, this Dummy was going across, and whether there was fog or what, the motorman that was running the Dummy didn't realize that the bridge had swung open, and he went right off the... over the edge, and I don't know how many people lost their lives. It is probably still down there at the bottom. S.R: What about the ferry travel? R.G: Ferry.... they had four ferries. They started out with the New Orleans, and it was just a normal ferry with a propeller at the back. Then business got so good that they bought the New Town, and the Jamaica, because they couldn't handle a lot of traffic that was coming over. ( It was the only way of getting over, you see, outside of the boats ... the Crystal Beach boat and the Erie Beach boat. People wanted to bring their cars over here because ... you know, to travel, to see relatives, go on picnics. We had a much better place over here for picnics, as you yourself know. S.R: It's still that way. R.G: Yeah, it's still that way. They never did fix up their parkway. S.R: And the fourth ferry's name was? R.G: The fourth ferry's name was City of Toledo, which was much larger than the New Town and Jamaica, and carried a total of about 120 cars. All that they would do ... they had the Jamaica, say, on the Canadian side, and the New Town on the other side, the American side, and in the middle would be this City of Toledo. Well, the City of Toledo... let's say it just loaded up from the American side. The City of Toledp would wait . until the Jamaica got filled on the Fort Erie side. As soon as he pulled away from the dock, he ducked ( in. S.R: It was like an assembly line almost. (29) �R.G: ( Oh, it was tricky the way they did it. And then the other boat would go down the river, and he'd wait for the New Town to get off the American . . . out of the American docking facility, and then he'd duck in there, unload his load and then come up. That's the only way they had to do it. They had no_ Peace Bridge at the time. It's the only way that the cars had of getting over. S.R: Once the Peace Bridge was open, did the ferry business stay there at all? R.G: Oh yeah, yeah, they kept ... I think they kept one ferry ... I think they had the New Town and the New Orleans. Then the business dropped off so bad that they just had the one, and they kept the New Orleans. S.R: That was the first one right? R.G: Yeah, that was the first ferry that they had. Then finally it got ... they were losing money right and left, and the Fix brothers ... they're the ones that owned the ferries in Buffalo... and they closed down the operation. I think you also had the story in the paper about ( the ferry going down the river in the ice. Do you want that story? S.R: Sure. R.G: Alright, I'll tell you about it. In the wintertime the only ferry they could run ... that's when all of them run ... was the New Orleans, because it had the propellor at the back. The others were all side-wheelers. The ice coming down the river would just tear these side-wheelers right out, you know, the damage would be too great so they used the New Orleans. So, this one time, my dad was working at the service station... this is in another winter... and he was working at the service station down, right at the foot of the bridge, where the bridge comes off the river there and onto the land. He was looking out across the river and all of a sudden he sees this ferry coming down. Well, what had happened, the ferry got caught in the ice and he couldn't make it through to get over to Fort Erie, and the ice carried it down. The guy in the car said, "Gee Chet", . he said, "That ferry's going to hit the bridge". (The International Bridge) And it hit the bridge, and it tipped, almost tipped over, and they just took the cabin right off. But luckily the Captain saw ( it coming, and he yelled for all the passengers to get below. Nobody was hurt. (30) �( S.R: Is that the International Bridge? R.G: It was the International Bridge that they hit. Well, then they had what they call the International Tug, which was owned by the Bridge Company, just to stop things like this ... in case any of the ferries... if anything ever happened and they started going down the river, to protect their bridge. So, it went out and it got the New Orleans and hauled it back up the river to the dock up at... the dock on the American side. S.R: . So, then after that if you wanted to go to Buffalo you had to use the Dummy, for a while, right? R.G: There was no Dummy then. This was . . . I was up north then. This was ... I guess it was in the '40s. S.R: Oh, so the Peace Bridge was open then already. R.G: Yeah. S.R: Could you tell me about the Peace Bridge opening, when it was, and what you remember about it? R.G: In 1927. King Edward VIII came over and his brother George, who was later, you know, Geroge VI. They came over to open the Bridge. ( The American ... I'm trying to think who the American authority was. It wasn't a President, it was somebody very near him, a Vice President I think, of the United States, he was there when they opened the Bridge in 1927. S.R: The King, was he just the Prince at the time, or was he the King? R.G: No, they were both Princes at the time. S.R: So, that's where they got the Prince of Wales? R.G: Yes. He was the Prince of Wales, and I think George was the Duke of York. They were there. I wasn't there because we just happened to have a family reunion that day, so we had to go to the family reunion ... we missed the openi�g. Oh, it was a big day in Fort Erie. They met right at the middle of the Bridge, and they cut the ribbon and ... you know the way they do it. ( S.R: ls there anything else that you can remember about it? R.G: No, that's all. S.R: What about the smuggling that went on during Prohibition? R.G: Oh, the smuggling. Well, they started out... when they passed the 1 8th Ammendment in the States, they closed all the bars and they (3 1 ) �couldn't sell any more beer over there ... so, they had to have beer. ( The only way they could get it is to import it from Canada... but, how to get it over? So, the only way they could get it over was by boat. A lot of these enterprising young guys, why-they opened up operations all the way along the river. It started right at the foot of Highland Avenue, and it went right up to the ferry dock. There was bootleggers all the way along there. They all had fleets of boats, row boats, which would carry, oh, 50-60 cases of beer, and you got $ 1 00 for taking a rowboat over. Also, they had launches, and finally it ended up that one fellow had a tugboat, which would carry 1 , 200 cases of beer. He only had that for two years, I guess, before they... it went wet over in the States again, you know, they brought their beer back in. But, he made quite a fe w trips with _ that 1 , 200 cases. He ended up a millionaire. There was one bootlegger who owned a fleet of rowboats and launches, and finally, he thought · in order to get a greater amount of beer across the river he would use a tug. So he bought a gasoline powered tug, which held about 1 , 200 cases of beer. He'd run that across the river at night, after ( dark, unload it and then come back. Well, he ran that for about two years until they recalled the 18th Amendment in the States, and they had beer again. There was another man... he bought one of the boats that was in the Miss America Races, the Gold Cup Races in Detroit. It was called the Miss America, I believe. This boat would do ... oh, maybe 75 miles an hour. And he said, "Well, the Coast Guard won't catch me with this". And he'd dart over, he'd be over there in about a minute, unload his boat and come back again. He could make numerous runs in an evening. The Coast Guard boat was pretty fast, and it had a one pounder up on the deck. S.R: What's that? R.G: A one pound cannon. So, this one night, he was chasing this one fellow, who's dead now... he was a real character... he was driving this launch which was pretty fast. He said the darn thing was catching up to him, and here it was the Coast Guard right behind him. He was standing inside the cabin at the wheel of this boat and all of a sudden he heard something go by his head. This Coast Guard (32) . �had shot off his cannon, and the ball had gone right through it. I saw the boat... right through it and through the back window, and out through the windshield. It was only about a foot from his head. S.R: Did very many people get hurt during this? R.G: Oh, there was the odd person that disappeared, and stuff like that. But what would happen... if you went to take a load ... say you went by rowboat, it's the slowest... and it had whiskey... about 50 cases . of whiskey on board ...that's where they made the big money ... and you saw that the Coast Guard was coming, well, what you'd do, you'd just throw everything overboard as fast as you could. There was usually one or two men in the boat, usually two, and they'd heave this stuff over, and then row for the Canadian shore. Well, they had nothing, they had nothing on them. ( S.R: So they couldn't do anything. R.G: There was lots of whiskey at the bottom there. S.R: Did people dive trying to find it? R.G: Oh yes. This one fellow in town, he was quite a diver, and he worked on the railroad, and his sport was swimming. So, he'd start up, start about the International Bridge, he'd swim out and he'd start to dive. He'd have a clothespin on his nose and have his ears plugged up, goggles ... down he'd go... and he'd have a pair of swimming trunks. He'd locate these boats. Some of the boats were sunk, and the guys have swam to shore. Sometimes there was boatloads right there. And he'd tear open these cases. This is darn good liquor, you know, that had been aged for about 15-20 years before he got to it. So, he'd shove the bottles in his shorts, in his swimming trunks, and he'd swim to shore. He'd hide these bottles along the edge and then he'd walk back at night after everything was dark and things had quietened down, he'd go down with his car and pick up the whiskey. He had enough whiskey for his friends and himself. S.R: What about gambling? You had mentioned before about a gambling house. R.G: ( Well, this gambling place, it was an old warehouse about... just about across from Built... what is it? You know, on upper Courtwright there, right... (33) �( S.R: Buildall? R.G: Buildall, just across from Buildall. It had been a factory, and they had closed it up... taken it back to Buffalo or whatever ... so this is during the Depression. So this guy got the idea that he'd open up a bookmaking joint there. He fixed it all up. He put a board up, he got phones in and everything. You'd go in there and you made your bet ... there was a wicket there. You could bet 50¢, 25¢, $ 1 , $2, whatever you wanted. And then you'd get the results. . He could get the results and put them up on the board. I was in there a c·ouple of times. S.R: Was it very popular for the Canadians or was it Americans? R.G: Oh yeah, very popular. Oh no, no Americans, mostly Canadians. S.R: Were there very many of these places in town? R.G: Well, I know of two. There was another one. You know when my dad had the garage? There was one down there. S.R: And that was at the bottom of Courtwright? R.G: The bottom of Courtwright in that garage. That was a big operation too. ( S.R: Is that when you guys were renting it? R.G: No, no, this was before we were ever near the place. This was long before. See, dad didn't buy that until '46. S.R: You had mentioned that there used to be an industry across from Buildall...? R.G: Yes, I can't remember whether it was... it seemed to me that it was Liquid Veneer, which was a polish, a furniture polish they manufactured there. There old place on Lewis Street, it burned down, so they moved the operation over onto Courtwright there. He only operated for a few years and then closed up and took it back to Buffalo. Most of these... all the industries came from Buffalo. The Arner Company, that's an American company, it closed up and went back. And Jello, they sold out to General Foods. S.R: Where did Jello used to be? R.G: Jello was right at the corner of Lewis and the Boulevard. That great big apartment buiding. ( S.R: So, where the Arner was, first it was Jello? R.G: Yeah, the Arner, that was called the Jello. That was run by a man (34) �by the name of Woodward. He was a very good friend of my fathers. ( S.R: Do you recall any other industries ? R.G: Other industries at the time? S.R: Ones that aren't here anymore. R.G: Oh yes, Toddy. S.R: What was that and where was it located? R.G: The Toddy Company was... you know where the station is now, the railroad station, well, if you just stood at the railroad station and . walked straight across ... the great big building. Do you know where the Markel Electric was? Do you remember when they closed the Markel? S.R: What railroad station? R.G: The only railroad station we have in Fort Erie. S.R: I only know the C.N., if you go down Wood Street... R.G: We used to cut across to go to the high school, right by the railroad station. Just ... do you know where Williams Go Id is? ( S.R: Right on the corner of Jennet and Wintemute, in that area? R.G: You stand at Williams Go ld, you walk toward the railroad track, well, that's the station. If you keep going right straight across the tracks, and you'd run into this big building, and that was the Toddy Company, which was simular to ... although it was a hot drink, and it was really good. It's a shame that it ever went out of business, because it was better than any chocolate drink that I ever had, and it was delicious. They were open for... oh, I'd say about ten years. Well then they closed up. Now, I don't know if they went back to Buffalo or they went broke or just what happened. I can't remember. And then Markel Electric took over that. You'd probably... have you heard anything about Markel? Markel made small, small appliances, toasters, fans, you know, electirc fans. I think they made air-condisitoners too, at one time, all these things. That was opened for about 15 years, and then closed up and went back to the States. So that's as many... I can't think of anymore. Oh, wait a minute, yes I can... Hart & Cooley. Hart & Cooley was up on Wood Street. Now Wood Street is just up... you go up Gilmore... you come to the railroad tracks there, you know where the railroad tracks are? (35) �( S.R: Yes, right where the G.T.R. is. R.G: You make a right turn just after the railroad tracks. S.R: On Dunlop Street. R.G: Yeah, you know that? S.R: I live on Dunlop Street. R.G: Well, you knew Hart S.R: Yes. R.G: I worked there one time for & Cooley then? •.• oh, just for that time, 'til I could get back to Fleet. They were in the air-conditioning, registers, and all kinds of heating things. S.R: Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you can recall? R.G: Yes, the street dances we had every summer. These street dances took place right on Central A venue, right by the Town Hall. Clarence Berger used to build the stand for the orchestra, right in the street. They'd throw cornmeal on the street, and then the people would dance. ( S.R: You had mentioned Clarence Berger before . . . ? R.G: Yes, he was our S.R: Oh, he was the orchestra? R.G: He was the orchestra man in Fort Erie. He lived up on Upper Courtwright. S.R: Who was the first political representative from the area that you .•. he played at all the dances. can r emem ber? R.G: Bill Willson, William F. Willson from Ridgeway, Ontario. S.R: What was his job? R.G: He was a member of Parliament in . . . a member of Provincial Parliament. S.R: M.P.P.? R.G: M.P.P., and a very good representative, a plain speaker, a very good man. Everybody liked him. I believe he was a Conservative. S.R: Do you recall any good he did? R.G: I can't remember anything he brought to Fort Erie. I can remember dad saying though, that, you know, Bill's a real good man. If you wanted anything done, you know . . . like, if you were havi1).g trouble getting different things done, you'd just go to him and he'd see that it got done. Bµt . . . he was the first one. Then the big one that we had, he didn't live in Fort Erie, he was from the Falls. That was ( Houck, William Houck. He was the Energy Minister, he was the (36) �head of the Niagara Hydro, he was the . . . what do you call them ? l the Commissioner ..• .•• the Commissioner of Hydro in the Falls there, yeah. That was a pretty big job ••• another fine speaker. He was American born and came to Canada with his father, and they built a farm down on the . . . this huge farm as you drive along the River Road. It's up for sale now. It has a great big barn. S.R: Is it around Black Creek? R.G: Yeah, around in there, you'll see it on the left ..• a big house and _this huge barn and a lot of fields around. There was three brothers, Bill, Jack, and Chris. Chris Houck, he was a minister, and Jack and Bill ran the farm. S.R: And Jack was the C aptain of the Mentholatum Baseball team? R.G: He was one of the Captains, yeah, and the third baseman. They ran this farm and they were all educated at Cornell, so they called the farm Llenroc. It's Cornell spelled backwards . . . Llenroc Farms. They were very big in dairy herds, you know , he had these registered stocks. They really made a lot of money on it. ( S.R: Why would they call it Cornell spelled backwards? R.G: Oh, I guess . . . just a . . . I don't know why. S.R: Were they friends with the Cornells, or anything like that? R.G: Oh, I im agine he knew them. I met the Houcks when I was running for Parliament one time . . . Boy's Parliament. S.R: Boy's Parliament, is that something here in Fort Erie? R.G: Yeah, and the whole district and all of Ontario. S.R: What does Boy's Parliament do? R.G: It came from the Tuxis, where the youth of the Christian . . . it is a society of Christian youngsters. They range anywhere from 1 6 , right down to about 1 2. . You started out a s a Trail Ranger when you were 12, and then you got to be about 14 or 1 5 , you became a Tuxis. What Tuxis means, is training for service, you and I on either side and no-one but Christ between us. The X is Christ. So I ran for Parliament, and that's how I got to know the Houcks. I went down there and spoke at their church. . . they voted for me. S.R: Where was this Parliament held, in the church? Is it something to do with the churches? R.G: With all the churches in the district, like Port Colborne, Ridgeway, (37) �Fort Erie. We had an election. This fellow by the name of Doc ( ••• I can't remember his name, last name. Anyway, we ran against each other. . . had an election and I was elected and went to Toronto for a week, like, in our Christ mans Holidays, you know, we were both going to school. I was 1 8 . S.R: Where was the headquarters for this? R.G: The headquarters is in Toronto. It's kind of phased out now. S.R: I never heard of it at all. R.G: It's something... Oh, I don't think half the people in Fort Erie know have never heard of it, just the ones that were connected with it. It was a good thing, you know, it kept the kids off the street. We'd meet once a week down at the church. I belonged to the Central Avenue United Chruch. We'd play basketball, have m.eetings, have a little get-together .•. like a Christian get-together, you know, and have talks. It was really good. Everybody really enjoyed it. It was something to do in the Depression. ( S.R: Thank you for the interview Mr. Grimmell.' R.G: Well, thank you for interviewing me. (38) •.• � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Grimmell, Ronald Description An account of the resource Topics include: Life in Bridgeburg 1920s-70s Basball Bertie Fair Ferry Various people, places, and work Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 3, 1985 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Interview conducted at the Centennial Library by Shelly Richer 1980s 1985 Bertie fair Bridgeburg Oral history transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/046e1d553790325b4a291978e400cf2b.pdf 88be6b81a4abe803ff9946aab470b0f4 PDF Text Text This is Rose Hearn interviewing Mr. Milford Zimmerman in his home at 3550 Main Street East, Stevensville, Ontario, and the date is September 19, 1985 . < .• R.H: Good evening Mr. Zimmerman. M.Z: Good evening. R.H: Could you please tell me your date of birth? M.Z: 19 16, July 18th, 19 16. R.H: Where were you born? M.Z: I was born in Bertie Township about halfway between Fort Erie and Stevensville. R.H: What street would that be? M.Z: It would be like College Road now, College Road. It runs from Niagara Christian College to Stevensville. R.H: What school did you attend? M.Z: I went to S. S. No. 7. R.H: Where was that? Was that far from where you lived? M.Z: It was about three miles. R.H: And you had to walk that far? M.Z: Yes. R.H: There was no bussing of course? M.Z: No. R.H: Do you remerpber who some of your teachers were at that time? M.Z: Oh, Miss Reddy was one of my teachers, and Miss Stevens. I think that was the only two teachers I had then when I went to school there. I went to Fort Erie then in 19 ... R.H: You moved to Fort Erie with your family? M.Z: Yeah, we moved to Fort Erie in 1928, I think it was. I went to Douglas School then. R.H: What area did you live in then? M.Z: High Street, two blocks from Douglas School. R.H: Was that the South End? M.Z: That was the South End. R.H: Of course they didn't have the Central Avenue Bridge to connect the ... ? M.Z: No, no, it was Fort Erie and Bridgeburg then. R.H: That was Fort Erie, the South End, and Bridgeburg was the North End, right? ( 1) �M.Z: R.H: ( That's right. Was the South End busy then? M.Z: Yes, but it... In 1927 when they opened the Peace Bridge then things were... It was quite busy before that. You see, the only way you could get into Canada from the States in this area was by ferry. They had three ferries running between Fort Erie and Buffalo. The Racetrack traffic and stuff from Buffalo came across on the ferries, from Buffalo to the Racetrack. That was before the Bridge was opened. So it was quite busy, yes. R.H: Did you ever go on the ferryboats? M.Z: Oh yes, lots of times. R.H: Can you remember what they looked like? M.Z: Well, one time traffic was so heavy that they had three ferries running at a time. There was one tied up on the American side, one tied up on the Canadian side, and one in the middle of the river. One for unloading and loading at the docks. As soon as one pulled out, the other one pulled in. There was three ferries running at a time. The City of Toledo was one of the ferries and the New Orleans was another one. They were the two common ones, and then they had ( other ones. They run... their peak season was the summertime. The only problem with the trip that the ferries had, was in the spring when the ice started. The ice would cause some problems. If the ice was too heavy, then they'd have to stop service for a while. I remember one time the ice was pretty heavy and one of the ferries got caught in the ice. It took her down the river to the International Bridge, hit the Bridge and just took the top deck off the ferry. R.H: Was that the New Orleans? M.Z: No. Oh yes, it would be the New Orleans, and not the City of Toledo. The City of Toledo was a bigger. . . was the biggest one. R.H: That's what I was going to ask you, were they different sizes? M.Z: Well, two of them were about the same size, but the City of Toledo was the largest one of the three. The other were pretty well the same size. I can't recall the name of the third one now. R.H: But it was the New Orleans of course that hit the International Bridge, was anyone hurt? M..Z: No. R.H: You don't know anyone who worked on the ferrboats, do you? Did (2) �they employ Canadians? Were they American ferryboats? M.Z: { Well, it was something like the Bridge Company. I don't really know who owned the ferries but I don't know if it was an American company or Canadian company, I couldn't tell you that. R.H: But they did employ Canadians? M.Z: Oh sure, Paddy Fix was one of the pursers. I can't remember the names of them all. At that time we were just kids. We used to ride the ferry and go over to Ferry Street and Grant Street, to the show on Ferry Street. R.H: You mean the movie theatre? M.Z: Yeah, they had a movie theatre just at the top of Ferry Street before you got to Grant Street. At that time you never got uptown because there was no way of gettin' uptown unless you went over and took a streetcar uptown. There was no other way of going uptown. R.H: So you just went to the movie theatre on a Saturday? M.Z: Well, a lot of the kids did, but I never went very often because I always had plenty to do. I was out playing ball in the summertime and playing hockey in the wintertime. There was always swimming and stuff, and we always had plenty of recreation. ( R.H: So Fort Erie offered a lot of sports to kids, did they? M.Z: Oh yes, there was a lot of sports in Fort Erie. You had baseball, hockey, lacrosse, softball, pretty near any sport that you'd find in any small town. R.H: Did you play for a team, and was it sponsered by anyone? M.Z: When I first started playing ball, I played for the Fort Erie Juniors Baseball Team. Jimmy Farrell and Scotty Reid, they started the junior ball team. That's the first junior ball team that I can remember in Fort Erie. R.H: They started it? M.Z: Yeah, that's right. They organized it. We played in the Niagara District Junior League then. We played in Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Port Robinson, Port Colborne, Merrittown, and Thorold. We were in that league, and that was under 20, the age, when we were kids. R.H: Was that a travelling team then? M.Z: That's right. That was the only team that we had. Actually, there was no local junior leagues. There was other leagues, but not junior { leagues. There was like an industrial league for the older fellows. (3) �R.H: ( Were these for companies that they worked for, like the Mentholatum Company? M.Z: Well, they were a senior team. the Mentholatum too. They were older, they were men, not kids teams. After the Mentholatum team, we played ball for intermediate teams and they were pretty much the same places or towns that were in the juniors. McMorran's, that used to be a clothing store in Fort Erie, they sponsored an intermediate ball team. Horton Steel had sponsored an intermediate team for years. We won the Ontario Championship in 1950. R.H: Who did you play against, do you remember? M.Z: We played off the finals with Listowel. In the game a piece, the third game was played in Brantford. We had a real good crowd following at that time. There was 2,SOO;people from Fort Erie in Brantford for the third game on a Saturday afternoon. We had a really good following. R.H: That was practically the whole town of Fort Erie out there, right? M.Z: They pretty well were. Everybody was there. In the wintertime... One time they had a local industrial league in hockey which took in Fort Erie and ... Spears Garage, they had a team in Fort Erie, that was the local garage. Ridgeway had a team which was Willson's ( Garage in Ridgeway. Then there was a team from Stevensville and Chippawa, and there were two teams from Buffalo. They played three games every Monday night. R.H: Who was the coach? M.Z: We were fortunate at that time because the Buffalo Bisons professional team played hockey in Fort Erie, and all of the players that played for Buffalo, lived in this area. They lived in Crescent Park and Fort Erie, so they lived in this area. The coaches for these teams were professional hockey players also. We had different coaches. Bill Tougher coached the Spears team at one time and Lederman coached the team. There was a number of them over a period of years. R.H: M.Z: That's right. R.H: What about baseball, who were the coaches for that? M.Z: ( They just coached the hockey team, right? Jimmy Farrell and... R.H: Yeah! they did coaching as well as organizing? M.Z: That's right, then when we got intermediate.. . Why-after we had (4) �Butler, Cecil Butler... He used to be the barber on Jarvis Street. He was interested in the ball. Skip Howe who used to be an insurance ( man in Fort Erie, he coached the first intermediate team that I played for. Then after ... Jimmy Farrell, he still coached intermediate afterwards too. When I quit, I managed to coach the team for Horton Steel, the baseball team for Horton Steel, the one we won the championship with. I managed to coach that team. R.H: Who were some of the players in that team? M.Z: Oh, there was Al Spear, Casey Jones, Ray, my brother, and Al Reid. R.H: Did your brother ever get to the big league? M.Z: No. R.H: Didn't a Zimmerman make it to the big leagues? M.Z: My son went to play hockey. He played professional hockey. He never played baseball. R.H: Well, getting back to the baseball team...? M.Z: Well, there was Ray Busby, Jack McKeough, and Tip Logan. Tip went to Hamilton, he played football for the Hamilton Tiger Cats. R.H: Did he really? M.Z: That's right. He also played... he signed a contract with the Brooklyn ( Dodgers to play ball. He played one year, I think, professional baseball. R.H: Did these players work at Horton Steel or did Horton Steel just sponsor them? M.Z: Some of them did. Horton Steel sponsored them, and if some of the players didn't have a job, why-they would give them jobs. R.H: What was the average age of these guys then? M.Z: Oh, they'd be from 20 to 35. They'd be anywheres from 20 to 35 years of age. R.H: Where did you practice? M.Z: At Oakes Park. R.H: You still went to Oakes Park then? M.Z: When I first started playing ball, junior team, we played down at the river diamond. The diamond that's around the river now. It's on the Bowen Road. We played there first and that's where the old Menthulatum team had their home diamond there. Oakes Park, Oakes donated the land over there on Gilmore Road, and some ( of the money to build the park there on Gilmore. (5 ) �R.H: M.Z: Harry Oakes. R.H: That's the Harry Oakes, the millionaire? M.Z: That's right. He owned a lot of property in Fort Erie at one time. R.H: I see, so he donated that land on Gilmore Road? M.Z: ( When you say Oakes... ? So he donated that property on Gilmore Road, for a park. That's where we have the ball diamond, the sugar bowl, and the library. All that property was donated by him. R.H: Did quite a few of the players make it to the big league, like Tip Logan to football? M.Z: Well, he went to play football. A couple of them signed to play minor ball. They were professional, but in the minor leagues, they never made it to the American International League. R.H: When did you go to play for the Buffalo Bisons? M.Z: I never played for the Buffalo Bisons. R.H: You never played for them? M.Z: No, in 1929 I started working in the clubhouse and then later as assistant trainer. In 1933 the trainer that we had, he was also a trainer for the Buffalo Bisons Baseball Team, well, they went south ( for spring training. It was about the time when the hockey playoffs would start, so he went south with the ball team and I took over as trainer for the hockey team, for the playoffs. The last few years I was the trainer for the Buffalo Bisons before the Arena Collapsed. When the Arena Collapsed, then of course, they moved to Niagara Falls to play in Niagara Falls, but the crowds and finances were bad, and they finally folded up in 1936. R.H: That was the hockey team? M.Z: That's right. That was the Buffalo Bisons Hockey Team. R.H: Weren't they a Canadian team? M.Z: They were all Canadians. R.H: Were the players from around this area too, or were they from all over? M.Z: They were like most professional teams, they were from all over. Lederman, he was from Kitchener, Lloyd Groves, he was from Kitchener. Bill Tougher, he was a goal-tender from Kingston. Of course that carried over about four or five years, and there was probably 30 ( or 40 players coming and going, so I couldn't name all of them. (6) �I could if I sat down and... but it would take some time to name them all. Frank Nighbor from Ottawa was the coach and general ( manager of the hockey club. R.H: Did you say they played over here a lot? M.Z: Well, they played all their games in Fort Erie. They never played in Buffalo. R.H: Was this at the Fort Erie Arena? M.Z: In Fort Erie. The old Peace Bridge Arena. R.H: Is that what it was called then? M.Z: Yes, because it was owned by William Baird from Buffalo. He was the one that owned the Peace Bridge, so it was called the Peace Bridge Arena. At that time, a lot of those people from Buffalo were given a special rate on the bridge, on game nights. They used to give them a special rate on the bridge, on game nights. A carload could come over from 6 to 10:30 p.m. and it only cost them 25 cents on the Bridge, return, for a carload. He cut the prices for the people coming across. R.H: Was the fee to get over, was it normally for each person in a car? M.Z: That's right. They used to pay 25 cents... R.H: For each person? M.Z: No, 25 cents for the car and then 10 cents a head. During hockey game nights from 6 until 10:30 p.m. they used to pay a flat rate. It didn't matter how many people were in the car. R.H: You say that Bill Baird was responsible for the...? M.Z: That's right. R.H: Was he the owner of the Peace Bridge Company? M.Z: He was one of the ones who was instrumental in getting it. There was different directors and so on. You see, William C. Baird, I think he owned the majority of shares. Mr. Baird... His son owns a lot of property in Point Albino now. He owns about a 100 acres across the point there. That's the younger Bill Baird that owns that, but he was also involved in the Arena at that time. It was actually his father who was the one that got it started. It reverted to him then. R.H: I thought the money for the Arena came from the toll on the Peace Bridge, did it? ( M.Z: No. When the Peace Bridge was built they said that when the Peace (7) �Bridge was paid for why-it would become free. They always keep spending enough now that it's never gonna be paid for. It has to ( be improved, it's like everything else the price of stuff goes up. So, actually, the Peace Bridge will never be free because of the fact of the cost and stuff, the maintenance of it. R.H: Have you any idea when the Arena was built? M.Z: It was built in 1927, '28. R.H: The Peace Bridge was in '27, so was it just after the Peace Bridge opening, that it was built? M.Z: That's right. I think it was opened in 1929. [The Peace Bridge was officially opened in 1927] The first hockey that they had, they used to call it the Niagara District Industrial League, and Tabor was instrumental in starting that. R.H: Starting that league? M.Z: Starting the league, the team, yes that's right. They had two teams from Buffalo and like I said before, Fort Erie, Ridgeway, Crystal Beach, and Chippawa. Those games were played, three games on a monday night. Six teams played on a monday night, one right after the other. They drew good crowds there... Well, he was quite ( a promoter, and he'd take 250 or 300 tickets over to some of the big companies in Buffalo and distribute them. We played to 2 , 500, 3,000 people on a monday night, quite often. They weren't always paid attendance, but they were good crowds. It was well attended. R.H: Did you have good ice? M.Z: Oh yeah. It was really good ice. R.H: I imagine they had someone to bring in the ice from outside, or did they have artificial ice? M.Z: Oh no, the ice plant was there even after the rink collapsed, they still had made ice there. He got his ice for iceboxes and stuff like that. R.H: So the ice plant brought the ice in? M.Z: Well, it was just the same as it is now, exactly the same as it is now. There was a refrigerating plant the same as they've got now, with pipes under the floor. Maybe now they have made a lot of improvements, but at that time the ice machines that they had here, wouldn't have made ice in the middle of the summer like ( they do now. It was good ice. They had to have good ice because you (8) �see the, the Buffalo Bisons played in the league with Detroit, Cleveland, Syracuse, Windsor, and Hamilton. The Arena here was as good ( as these big city rinks. In 1929 they had three professional teams playing here. They had the Chicago Black Hawks, and N.H.L. played their home games here. R.H: M.Z: At this Arena? At the Arena in Fort Erie. There was another Buffalo Team, the Buffalo Majors that played in the American Association. They played their home games in the Arena in Fort Erie. The Buffalo Bisons that played in the International League with London, Windsor, like I said before, they played their home games here. There was three different leagues playing in Fort Erie every week. R.H: That was really quite a place, wasn't it? M.Z: Some of the farmer stars of the National League like Charlie Gardner who was the goal-tender for Chicago, and Taffy Abel, Johnny Gottliegh, Doc Romnes, Red Horner, Charlie Conacher, Joe Primeau, Andy Blair... Some of the players who played for Toronto Maple Leafs, they played here. Bucko McDonald who was with the leafs, he also played for Buffalo at one time. ( R.H: The Buffalo Bisons? M.Z: Bisons, that's right. R.H: You mentioned why they collapsed, not the Arena, but the Buffalo Bisons, can you tell me again why they folded? .. M.Z: Well, the rink collapsed here from the weight of the snow in 19 . R.H: Yeah, the Arena collapsed in...? M.Z: It collapsed in 1936, March 17, 1936. The weight of the snow collapsed the roof and after that why... I said before they went to Niagara Falls to play, and after having drawn all these crowds from Buffalo, why-they just didn't travel to Niagara Falls to see hockey, so the fans support wasn't good. Fans support didn't continue. R.H: They weren't incorporated into any other league, were they? M.Z: No, they were in the same league, and they were still the Buffalo Bisons. R.H: But when they folded, did they go elsewhere? M.Z: No, no. They just folded and then there was no more Buffalo team until they built the Memorial Auditorium in Buffalo, and then they started a Buffalo Bisons there, that's Pepsi. (9) �R.H: So you really didn't have any competition with the Memorial Auditorium not being there, did you? ( M.Z: No. After one year I think they had the Buffalo Majors... They played some hockey in Buffalo, but they played in the old Broadway Auditorium. It wasn't suitable for hockey, it was just kind of a barn, so they didn't last too long either. R.H: What was hockey like then, was there a lot of fights then, like there is now? M.Z: No, it was a much different game. R.H: Has it changed then? M.Z: Oh yes. You had to be... Now all you have is to be able to skate fast and be tough. It was more of a finesse game and stick handling then, and positional play, but now it's just... it's nothing. I really don't appreciate hockey nearly... The hockey they play now is nothing the same as they played in those days. At that time they only had 12 players on a team when we played. Another thing, at that time you see, your rinks weren't heated. I mean it was cold, and It was much more adaptable to hockey than to have the warm arenas that they have today. So of course players lasted longer. I mean they ( had years of hockey, they didn't wear out like they do in those hot rinks. All that smoke and stuff... R.H: How long did they last, what was the average age? M.Z: Well, they would run into ... You see, now every year your players now are getting younger. At that time if a... it wasn't very often that you went right from juniors into professional hockey. You had to spend some time in the minors, but now they sign them at 18, 17 to 18 years old. Of course they probably won't last that long, they'll be through, a lot of them, when they are 30, or maybe before that. At that time playing in the colder rinks, and there was no smoking in the rinks, which was hard on the respiratory system, so they would last, and still play good hockey at 35 or 36 years old. Some of them went longer than that, but now it has just cut the life span for hockey players. R.H: You were saying the Arena collapsed on St. Patrick's Day, what year was it? M.Z: ( It was 1936, the 17th of March, 1936. R.H: Was there anyone in there at the time? (IO) �M.Z: Yeah, I was in there. There was thirteen in it when it collapsed. I wasn't in it when it went down, but I was the first one that noticed it was going down 'cause I was working for the Buffalo Club at ( that time, and it was just time for them to practice. I was the last person on the ice. R.H: You mean the Buffalo Bisons were in there? M.Z: No, they weren't in there either yet 'cause I always went early. I went up early and I had a bunch of small hockey sticks to be autographed for Wheaties. Wheaties were the... sponsored the broadcasts for hockey. They had a bunch of sticks that they had brought over for me to get autographed for them. I took them in and layed them out in the dressing room, and I was there a little early and it was snowing pretty heavy, , so I just put my skates on and went out for a skate before they came in. I was on the ice probably for 20 minutes or so, and then I went into the dressing room. A couple of the players came in, Bud Jarvis was one of them. Bud Jarvis and Cliff Barton came in, and while we were in the dressing room, they were autographing sticks. I heard a... it sounded like somebody dropping planks in the rink, so I walked out from the dressing room ( to the edge of the ice. They used to have two big Texaco signs, that were probably 8' high and 30' long that used to sit up on the tie-rods. Just as I walked on to the ice, I saw these signs fall over, off the tie-rods. So I went back to the dressing room and I told the fellows in the dressing room "You better get out of here, because the rink is going to cave in". They kinda laughed at me but they just had their T-shirts on. They got their hockey shirts on, and I said "Well, you stay here if you want to,1but I'm going, I'm leaving". So I went out and on my way out, Mrs. Anderson was working in the office, and I told her "That she'd better get out". Bill Warner, he was working in the rink. He was one of the maintenance men in the rink, and I told him. I didn't stay around to see them out, 'cause I knew the rink could cave in. I went out the front door and by the time I got across the Street, I turned around and looked, there was a pile of bricks in front of the door where I came out, about 6' high. The engineer had his car parked in front of the rink, and the skate-sharpener had his car parked in front of the rink. Croucher, he came out and looked around and he said "Boy, I'm ( 1 1) �glad somebody moved my car", and I said "Well, you'd better look again because you can see a little bit of your car there". It was ( underneath the bricks, you couldn't even see it. My dad was working in the back of the Arena. They were getting ready for the Buffalo Skating Club Carnival the next night. Dad was putting up the props and his car was parked on the street, and the bricks went and fell and tore the side off of his car. As soon as I got out and things had quietened down, I knew my dad was in the building, so I turned around and went back in looking for him. He came out around the outside looking for me. He'd gone out the back door and I went out the front door. Nobbdy was hurt, out of the thirteen of us. R.H: Was the snow that bad, that year? M.Z: It was a heavy wet snow and it was a northeast wind. The roof of the building was built like a half circle, like a hoop and if you put weight on one side of the hoop the other side goes up. So, when the wind blew the wet snow over the top of the roof, it packed it all in one corner, on the back. That caused the other side to come up. That's what caused the collapse. If it would have been evenly distributed over the whole roof, it would have never collapsed. ( It was so wet and heavy, you see it was in the spring, in early spring, like in March, and it was real wet snow and that's what caused the collapse. It was the weight of that wet snow. Buffalo, the hockey team, had two games left in the regular season, and they were in Cleveland, so we left the next day. I was the trainer at that time, and we went to Cleveland. The first two games of the playoffs were going to be in Cleveland so we spent a week in Cleveland at that time. By the time we came home from Cleveland, why-the snow was pretty well all gone already. R.H: What day of the week was it? Were you going to be playing a game that night? M.Z: We had played the night before. It was a Monday night, and we had a crowd of about 3,00 people in there. The Arena collapsed on Tuesday, I'm sure it was Tuesday, and then the next night was supposed to be the Buffalo Skating Club Carnival, and they would have had probably, 8,000 people in there. So, if it had collapsed, then it would have been a catastrophe. ( R.H: Did the whole building actually collapse? ( 12) �M.Z: No, just the roof. The roof just collapsed and fell in on the ice and down across the seats. It didn't hurt the seats and it didn't ( hurt the outside side walls, it just crashed on to the ice. It could have been repaired, put back up... At that time Mr. Baird offered to give it to the Town if they would put a roof back on it and it would have cost them probably $25, 000 to put a new roof on it, but they didn't feel that they could spend the $25, 000. R.H: That was the Town Council? M.Z: Yeah, that's right, the Fort Erie Town Council. Mr. Vasey demolished the rink and just kept the icehouse open for a few years. R.H: So they demolished it then? M.Z: Oh yes. R.H: Who was Mr. Vasey? M.Z: Mr. Vasey? He was one of the owners of the ice... he run the rink for Mr. Baird. He was the Arena manager and when it collapsed, he leased the ice plant from Mr. Baird for to make ice. They supplied a lot of ice in the fall, this time of the year. They hauled a lot of ice down to Bright's Winery for making wine. In the summer, at that time, there wasn't very many refrigerators around. Most people had ice boxes, so they would deliver ice. He kept the ice business going for quite a while after that. R.H: So they demolished the A rena, but when did they build the new one? M.Z: Well, the new one was built by the Lions Club. The Town built the one before that. They gave them money and they built the one before that. It was condemned later, and then the one that is on the present site was built by the Fort Erie Lions Club. R.H: So there has been three then? M.Z: That's right, this is the third rink. R.H: So the Town finally did build one? M.Z: Well, the Lions Club, the service clubs in town, built it and turned it over to the Town. R.H: Yeah, they built this one, right? M.Z: That's right. The second one, the money was financed by service clubs, but the building of it wasn't supervised too well, and it left a lot to be desired in construction. ( R.H: Was that built soon after the collapse or was there a lot of time between? ( 13) �M.Z: Yes, there was quite a... That wasn't built until... let me see, I guess that would have been in the late '40s when that first rink ( was built after that. R.H: And the structure wasn't very good then? M.Z: No. R.H: So then they tore that one down, right? M.Z: That was condemned, and then they had to tear it down. The building that is there now was financed by the service clubs in Fort Erie. R.H: So the collapse was caused by the snow, it wasn't caused by anything faulty in the structure? M.Z: No, no. R.H: Who was the mayor of this town when all this happened? M.Z: Well, when it collapsed, Malkin was the mayor. He used to have a store over in Amigari, over in the West End there, just across form the Racetrack. I think he was the mayor at that time. R.H: Do you know anything about the Town wanting part of the revenue that came from the Peace Bridge? M.Z: The only thing the Town could get from the Peace Bridge would be taxes, that's the only thing the Town could get. It was a private ( concern then. Property taxes is the only thing the Town could get from the Peace Bridge. R.H: Did you ever hear anything about the Town taking the Peace Bridge to court over this? M.Z: I don't know anything about that. R.H: Do you know anything about the Bertie Fair? M.Z: Yeah, we used to get a half-day holiday to attend the Bertie Fair. R.H: Did you really? M.Z: Oh yeah, school kids always got a half-day to go to the fair. R.H: Did they have racing there, like trotters or something? M.Z: Well, they used to have that but I don't think they were bet on. I don't think they ever had mutuals, farm mutuals or not. R.H: When you went to the Bertie Fair, did you notice what they had there? M.Z: In the afternoons they used to have marching bands for the school kids, and they had... It was just like an agricultural fair, something similiar to the Welland Fair. At that time, for kids it was quite ( an event. At least it was a half-day holiday for everybody. ( 14) �R.H: M.Z: Oh yeah, for races and they had all kinds of things. R.H: So it was mostly an agricultural fair? M.Z: Agriculrural fair, yes, that's right. R.H: Did they have competitions and things like that? M.Z: ( I was told they gave out prizes for different things, is that right? That's right, flower shows and stuff like that, and livestock. It was like a... If you go out in the country to these fairs, it was similiar to that. R.H: I'd like to ask you again about the sports. When you went to play hockey when you were a kid, how was the equipment? Did you get any equipment given to you at all? M.Z: No, you furnished your own equipment and you furnished your own transportation. When we played ball, Jimmy Farrell... when we played junior ball and travelled, he had a car. I had a Model T Ford truck and we all went in Jimmy Farrell's car or my Model T truck. R.H: What were the roads like then? M.Z: Well, they weren't paved like they are now, but they were good. They weren't mud roads or anything, but they were nothing to like they are now. The cars didn't drive 60 or 70 miles an hour either ( so there wasn't that problem. Our parents didn't take us to the Arena either, and we weren't furnished with a lot of equipment. We had to supply our own equipment. , · R.H: Did you have the kind of equipment like they have now? M.Z: We didn't have face guards and we didn't have helmets and a lot of things. I think maybe a lot of this equipment that they've got now has caused hockey to deteriorate. It has caused it to be much rougher than it was before. With the equipment they've got now, they get brave and they start swinging the sticks and stuff. Before they wouldn't do that. I got nothing against a good hard body check, but when they start using sticks as soon as somebody bumps them, then they want to fight, I mean, that's part of the game, body contact. Now they've got so that it's hardly safe for you to get along the boards, they'll run you into it, and hit you with a stick. That's why they have all these problems. At that time, you very seldom... oh, you might get a cut, a few stitches, but nobody did it intentionally. The thing that I can't understand is, why referees and owners don't ( ( 15) �insist upon the rules being more strictly enforced. These players that they have, are paid so much money and when they are out for a few games, and have to be paid, it's costing the owner a lot ( of money. It's also costing the players a lot of discomfort. They could control a lot of this by just enforcing the rules. The rules are there, but they relax them and it's the owners that... The referees try to satisfy the owners. R.H: And the crowds? M.Z: The crowds, that's right, and that's why hockey is deteriorating. That's only my own opinion. R.H: What position did you play in hockey? M.Z: I played the wing, I played right wing in hockey and I pitched when I played ball. R.H: So were the rules really strict then? M.Z: Oh yeah, when you were called... when high sticking penalties and stuff were called, they didn't let you get away with what they get away with now. Another thing right now... the standards, they're not consistent. One referee calls one way, and another referee calls another way. At the start of a game they will follow everything, ( and then the next thing you know they'll relax, and they get into trouble, and then they start getting strict again. That's what causes the problems in your sports. R.H: Did you have any problem getting ice time? M.Z: No. No, we never had problems with ice time. R.H: Did you ever go to Erie Beach? M.Z: Oh yeah. R.H: So that was the big attraction then? M.Z: That was the main Beach here. They had the dance hall there, and the swimming pool, and a zoo. The ferries brought people over and one was called the Sandfly Express. R.H: Oh yeah, I've heard about that. M.Z: It went along the Lakeshore Road to Erie Beach, and they had a boat that came over from Buffalo. They used come over on the ferry to Fort Erie. They could come over from Commercial Street on a boat. From what I can remember of the Beach it was nicer and much more larger than Crystal Beach. The dance hall was beautiful, downstairs was the bowling alley, and they had a big ( 16) �swimming pool with dressing rooms downstairs, and the second floor was the dance hall. R.H: That was frequented a lot wasn't it? M.Z: Oh yeah. R.H: What about the Bardol family, were they Canadians? M.Z: No, no, he was American. R.H: ( So they were Americans, when did Erie Beach close down? M.Z: When the stock market crashed, when was that '29? R.H: Is that when it closed? M.Z: I'm not sure, I wouldn't be sure about that. It might have been later than that. R.H: M.Z: R.H: M.Z: Did they have a lot of rides too? Yeah. Did they sell a lot of food? Yeah, there was stands the same as there are at Crystal Beach. It was similiar, what I can remember of it. Part of the zoo was ... they had a lot of live animals there. The walk along the beach was nice. R.H: ( M.Z: Did they have a boardwalk? No, I don't think so. I think it was all concrete as you walked along there. When we came down to Fort Erie, we came to Fort Erie in 1927, oh pardon me, '28, and I was 12 years old then so I can't remember too much detail. R.H: Did you go to Crystal Beach? M.Z: I don't remember going to Crystal Beach at that time. R.H: What about later on? M.Z: Later on! Oh yes. We used to go to Crystal Beach every Saturday night. R.H: M.Z: You went to the dance hall? Yeah, we always had one corner that was Fort Erie. We'd borrow somebodys car, if we didn't have a car we'd borrow one, and we'd go to Crystal Beach on a Saturday night. We always knew were to find the Fort Erie crowd. They were always in one area. R.H: M.Z: R.H: ( M.Z: They say that was a nice dance hall, was it? Oh yeah, it was nice. That was the Starlight Ballroom. They had some big bands there, didn't they? Yes, they did. ( 17) �R.H: Do you know who any of the bands were? M.Z: Bill Austin played there. He was from Buffalo, he wasn't one of ( the big bands. He was just a Buffalo band, I dont remember big bands. The only time I remember the big bands, is when we used to go... after the Bridge was opened, we used to go over to Shea's Buffalo that had the orchestra pit, and see the big bands. We went over there when Sinatra was first starting, and the bobby soxers... he was with Tommy Dorsey, he sang with Tommy Dorsey, I remember him being in Buffalo that time. Jeff Fields, Ted Lewis, Eddie Duchin. There was a different band in there every week, at Shea's Buffalo. R.H: M.Z: Did you have to buy tickets to the Crystal Ballroom to dance? Well, we had it both ways at one time that I can remember. We used to get three dances for a quarter, you'd buy the tickets, three tickets for a quarter. When the dance was over, they just pulled the rope, and then they'd come in the other gate, the other side, and the group behind the rope would go out. If I remember right, it was three dances for a quarter. R.H: M.Z: ( Do you know who built Crystal Beach or managed it? The Hall's had that, didn't they Mom? (Mr. Zimmerman is addressing his wife) I don't know if they built it or not but Hall's... R.H: Were they managers? M.Z: I think they were the owners. R.H: M.Z: R.H: M.Z: They were the owners? Yeah. Was your dad in the volunteer Fire Department? Yeah, when we were kids in public school. My brother and I used to carry... when they went away to these parades that they always went to, outside of Buffalo and around. The Fire Company had parades, and Ray and I used to carry the banner when we were in the parades with the Fire Department. R.H: M.Z: Was this Bertie Township? No, it was Fort Erie Fire Department. There was only one then, affd the other-one was Bddgeburg Fife Department. The fireball used to be right next to where the legion is now, that used to be the Town Hall. It is the legion hall now. R.H: ( M.Z: You mean the one on Queen Street? Queen Street. That used to be the Fort Erie Town Hall where the ( 18) �legion is, and the fireball was right next door to it. It was the little building next door. Fort Erie No. 1 Fire department. It wasn't ( No. 1, there was only one, and the other was Bridgeburg at that time. R.H: So this was all volunteer of course, right? M.Z: That's right, it was always volunteer. There has never been any pay for firemen. R.H: Was there any fires that he told you about? M.Z: No, I don't remember anything, not during the time dad was a fireman. I remember when Von Zuban's Lumber Company burned down. R.H: Did you say Zimmerman's? M.Z: No, Von Zuban's. It was on the Boulevard, I remember when it burned. R.H: That was on the Boulevard? M.Z: Yeah, right near... just south of the A nglican church. R.H: Oh yeah. Was the equipment good at that time? M.Z: Oh yeah, they always had good equipment. the equipment was always... for the size of the... We didn't have any need for hook and ladders 'cause there was never any problem with big buildings. Fort Erie always had good equipment. R.H: What about the water though, were did they get the water from? M.Z: Oh, out of the pumping stations and they were sufficient at that time. I never remember any fires or anything in Fort Erie with any complaints that the water supply wasn't sufficient. R.H: How did they get the guys together when there was a fire? M.Z: With the siren. R.H: They still had the siren then? M.Z: Oh yeah, the siren used to be on the top of the tower there on Queen Street hill. Now it's on the fireball, but at that time it was on the top of the tower there. R.H: Did you work at Fleet? M.Z: Yeah, I started there in 1940, and when I started there, my clock number was 240. There was 240 employees at that time. I worked in the woodworking department. Charlie Jacobs was my foreman and I worked at the big plant for two months, and then they moved the woodworking department to Lewis Street. I went down there to work and I was down there for as long as they had it open down ( there, and then they moved it back up to the big plant. I was in ( 19) �charge of the wood mill on one shift. My foreman at that time was Bert Wyatt. I stayed there 'til after the war and when the war ( was over and the first layoff came up, I asked to be laid off because I wanted to go back outside to work. My dad was in construction in Fort Erie, and I had worked with him before. My brother and I both worked for dad and then when war started, material started getting hard to get, so in September dad says, "Maybe you fellows better see if you can get yourself a job, because we don't know if we are going to be able to get material, and we may not have anymore work". Ray, he went to Horton Steel, he got a job in the carpenters shop at Horton Steel. I went to work at Fleet, that's where you went, into a factory at that time. As soon as the war was over, and I could get out of Fleet, they laid me off... R.H: What was your dad's name? M.Z: Elmer. R.H: Elmer? M.Z: Yeah. I went back to work for him. I worked for him 'til he died, and when died, I carried on for a couple of years then I went to work for the Niagara South Board of Eduction as maintenance supervisor. ( I was there for the last 20 years before I retired. I've been retired for four years. R.H: When you were working at Fleet, were you working on parts for airplanes? M.Z: That's right. R.H: Do you know what kind of parts, and were they building any airplanes, the whole plane? M.Z: Oh yes, they were building the Fleet Finch and the Fleet Canuck and they were building the complete aircraft. Tommy Williams, the pilot who just died a few months ago, was the test pilot at Fleet. He just died a couple of months ago and in a month or so he would have had his lOOth birthday. He was the test pilot. I knew Tommy, he was quite a character and he was the oldest test pilot, I think at that time. His pilot's license, he just turned it in 'cause he though it was better for him. They didn't take it away from him, he just turned it in on his own because he was<ijust to old to fly. R.H: He would have been a 100 years old soon? M.Z: He died about a month... he would have been a 100 years old in a month. That was only two or three months ago that he died. (20) �R.H: M.Z: Oh yeah, R.H: Didn't they have some kind of bus service to get them to work? M.Z: Yes, they had a bus service. R.H: To bring them into Fleet, right? M.Z: ( Didn't they have women working there during the war? Well, they had a... Where the Catholic Church is now on Central Avenue, there used to be a hostel. A lot of the girls, ladies, lived there and they would have bus service from there up to Fleet. R.H: It was a privately owned bus service though, wasn't it? M.Z: I don't really know what it was, I couldn't say. R.H: How long did you work at Fleet then? M.Z: I was there until 1945. R.H: And then you went into construction with your dad, did you build houses? M.Z: We did everything, we did a lot of industrial work. We did a lot of work for Horton Steel, Hart and Cooley's, and we did work for Fleet too, and the Niagara School Board. We built a number of buildings. We did work for every church in Fort Erie, except the the Lutheran Church and the New Baptist Church. ( R.H: Did you do work like additions or... ? M.Z: Well, some were additions, and we worked on the Senior Citizens Hall on Queen Street, we remodelled that. We built the one on the corner of North and Bertie Street, we built that church. We did remodelling work on the Central Avenue United Church. We worked on pretty near every church in Fort Erie. R.H: You didn't have anything to with the building of the Cherry Hill Clubhouse, did you? M.Z: No. R.H: So, you and your dad built quite a few buildings then? M.Z: Yes, we did, my dad was in business for quite long time. A lot of our work was industrial, commercial. R.H: (Mr. Zimmerman is showing the family tree, and his wife starts to read from it) Harmonious Zimmerman born in Germany in 1778, and came to Humbersone, Canada in 185 1. It was that far back. R.H: So your family came from Alsac, Lorraine, is that in Germany? M.Z: That's right, in 1778. R.H: Where did they go from there? (2 1) �M.Z: Well, they came to Humberstone •.• no they went to the States, to Pennsylvania, and in 1851 they came to Canada. In January 1851 ( they came to Canada, Humberstone, and that was Harmonious. R.H: Were they given Crown Land then? M.Z: I think so. R.H: So the Crown Grant was given to Harmonious Zimmerman, what date was that? M.Z: 1799, July 6th. Neville, Crown Guarantee to Harmonious Zimmerman the elder, blacksmith, all 200 acres. This deed is too fragile to photo copy. In 1808, July 9th, from Harmonious the Elder to George Augustine Sr., the south 100 acres. 1845, June 24th, Anne Cooper, a widow, to Abraham Zimmerman 35 acres of the above land the deed refers to. An Indenture made by Harmonious Zimmerman the elder, to Anne Cooper, but there is no registration of this accepted above. The above 35 acres are described as the north part of the north half. In 1827, June 8th, Harmonious Zimmerman to Henry Stone, 12� acres of southeast part of the north half. In 1827, July 3rd, Harmonious Zimmerman to Henry Zimmerman, 87 acres of the north half. There is no registration of Abraham Zimmerman ( transferring his 35 acres back to his father Harmonious the elder. However, he must have, because the Indenture of July 3rd, 1847 above, would leave Harmonious Zimmerman 3/4 of an acre of which his home was located, lot 20, section No. 4 in Humberstone. R.H: Is that in Port Colborne? M.Z: Yeah, Port Colborne. R.H: So actually your family had Crown Land given to them, right? M.Z: Yeah, way back. R.H: Can you tell me the names of the players that were on the Horton Steel Intermediate B Baseball Team of 1950? M.Z: I think I can, we played the third game against Listowel, and Brantford and we won the Championship at Brantford. Henry Hamil was superintendent of the company, he was kind of a go-between the ball team and the company. Wray Dunn was the catcher, Al Spear, Mickey McDermott, Norm Plato, Les Banatti, Fred Plato, Casey Jones were some of the players. I coached and managed the team. There was Marvin McReynolds, Dave Bannati, Haddy Johnson, Ray Zimmerman, Dutch ( Sahli, Jack McKeough, and Allan Jones who were also on the team. (22) �Lynne Zimmerman was the bat boy. R.H: ( Was he any relation to you? M.Z: Yeah, he's my oldest son. R.H: Is he the one that was the hockey player? M.Z: That's right. R.H: And that's all of the players then? M.Z: That's all of the players that were •.. that's right, that's the full team. R.H: Do you know any of the hockey players from Fort Erie who turned professional? M.Z: Yes, there was a number of them played N.H.L. hockey, pro hockey. Pierre Pilate was one, Tom Reid, Johnny Brenman, Lorne Rombough, and Lynne Zimmerman who played pro hockey for Houston in the W.H.A. There was Doug Rombough, and Doug Reid who played minor pro hockey. They never made the N.H.L. but they made the minor hockey in the international league. Mickey McMann also was born in Fort Erie, he played for Minnesotta and he played in Buffalo for a little while. He made the N.H.L. I think that's pretty well all of them who made the pro hockey from Fort Erie. R.H: That's quite a list, isn't it? M.Z: Fort Erie's had a hockey ••• There was a time lapse when they had no rink here, so there was quite a few came from here that was able to play pro hockey. R.H: Thank you so much for the interview Mr. Zimmerman, I really appreciate it, thank you. M.Z: Well, I appreciate you asking me. It was a pleasure to help out with the information I had. R.H: Oh, you've helped out a lot believe me, especially with the sports end of it, it's great. M.Z: Well, thank you very much. (23) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Milford Zimmerman Location The location of the interview. Mr. Zimmerman's home at 350 Main Street East, Stevensville Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Zimmerman, Milford Description An account of the resource Provided here is Milford Zimmerman's interview. He discusses such topics as: Schools Bridgeburg North end Ferries Sports Buffalo Factories and industry Peace Bridge Arena Politics and Government Crystal Beach Amusement Park Fire Department Fleet Factories and industry Churches Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 19, 1985 1980s 1985 Bridgeburg Buffalo churches Crystal Beach amusement park factories and industry ferries Fleet Fort Erie north end Oral history peace bridge politics and government schools sports stevensville transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/dbe3012e6f4fa1eef0e446eab1958f35.pdf d8ff7ce07ae471ad217299a5c5231c80 PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer interviewing Miss Loretta Willick in her home at 3255 Stevensville Road on August 22, 1985. } S.R: Hello Miss Willick, and how are you? L.W: Well, pretty good for a lady of 81. S.R: So you were born in 1904 then. Were you born in the Stevensville area? L.W: Buffalo. S.R: When did you come to Fort Erie then? L.W: We moved into Snyder the next year, 1905. S.R: And you've stayed living in the area all your life? L.W: I've lived in three houses in this area. S.R: Could you tell me what school you attended and where it was located? L.W: S. S. # 5 on Sodom Road. S.R: How far from your home would that be? L.W: One mile, and I walked it. S.R: How was it through the wintertime? L.W: Well, my father used to once in a while take the sleigh or horses f arid turn us over and turn in the snowbank and laugh. �;_;.V S.R: Could you describe your school, the way it was and any changes that might have taken place? Is it still there? L.W: Oh, it's all changed. It's made into a beautiful home. It had been sold and made into a home. But it was the old fashioned desks with the ink-wells in the front of them. And they had the big, the big bellied wood stoves. I don't know what you called them, and the outhouses, no water, and that was about all. It was a one room school and it accomodated eight grades. S.R: How many students were there? L.W: Oh, it could, sometimes it would go up to fifty. S.R: One teacher for fifty students? L.W: One teacher, one teacher. S.R: Would you remember your teachers name? L.W: Well, the last teacher we had was Cathleen Swinton. In fact, she was there a number ofyears. S.R: ,( Was that the only teacher you had? L. W: I don't remember who it was before that. I think that Cathleen ·' (1) �Swinton was there the whole eight years. S.R: Is there any interesting stories that you can remember from the school days? L.W: Well, I can go back quite a few days. There was a woods right next door, right behind us and I know we used to go in the bush and hide, and play Hide And Seek in the bush. in the yard. We had the old pump We used to get our drinking water there. to play, we used to have happy days at school ••• they were happy days. went on. very few fights, I don't know too much else. We were pretty busy but we used to ••• attended the fairs then. We used Not too much I don't think we But when she went to school (her younger sister) we attended the fairs. S.R: The Bertie Fair? L.W: Yes, I always went to the Bertie Fair. S.R: Could you tell me what the Bertie Fair was like and where it was? L.W: Up at the race track. S.R: At the race track on Gilmore? And what did they do at the Bertie Fair, what attractions? L.W: Well, there was horse races ••. because my father owned horse racers, and I at nine, I used to drive the horses on a surrey. S.R: Was it just regular wagons that the horses used to pull? L.W: Yeah, like that with a top on it (pointing to a picture), a carriage. We used to call it carriages in those days. I used to drive. My father used to get two race horses, and the one he would drive with his sulky, and go ahead, and I would follow him with the carriage and my mother and family and take any of the kids around town with us to get in. in the races. for sale. Of course at the fair, well, we were interested And of course they used to have hot dogs in booths They used to have displays of fruits and vegetables, and prizes were given for those things. S.R: L.W: Of the church? S.R: What church is that? L.W: ( Are you or have you been a member of a church? St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church. S.R: Where is it located? L.W: On Netherby Road, Netherby and Snyder Road there, right across All my life. (2) �( from us. S.R: Did you always attend that same church? L.W: Always. S.R: Could you tell me a little of it's history, the building itself? L.W: Yes, it's a it's over a hundred years ..• and twenty-fifth . •. ! think it was .•• 184 7, we celebrated our hundred and we've celebrated our hundredth and our hundred and twenty-fifth. I think last year it was a hundred and thirty-five years old. S.R: Has there been any changes in the church since it's original structure? L.W: Well not it's been renovated, and yes there has been some changes, •.. but I mean there's been new pews. There's been new lights put in and things like that. S.R: L.W: Not to the church, but there has been a rectory built since. S.R: What's a rectory? L.W: Where the priest lives right next door. S.R: ( There was no additions to the church? So the church built that then for the priest to stay in? L.W: Yes. S.R: What about the church grounds itself? Did there used to be stables for the horses or anything like that for the horses in the wintertime? L.W: There used to be long sheds for the horses. But they've been removed and there's been a parking space put in where they use it for cars. The sheds have been removed, and there's a cememtery right next door. A huge cememtery. S.R: Do you recall any special events that the church has had? L.W: Many of them. We have a carnival each year. for fifty years. I did all the purchasing and the planning. And I ran the carnivals S.R: What other kind of events did the church have for the family? L.W: Oh, they have family gatherings. They have a Holy Name Society, they have a Catholic Women's League and they have a ••. have another committee. oh, they They have several committees you might say. S.R: I know you've been very active in the church. Do you recall any other people that have really had a lot to contribute to the church, ( a certain Priest that's really been exceptional or L.W: Oh yes. ••• ? We had the Carmelite Priest for thirty-five years ••• (3) for �sixty-five years. ( and we've had •. . Carmelite Fathers and we've had Diocesan Priests oh, what do you call them. name was now. I can't think what his The Diocesan, sixty-five and then there was a Diocesan, and then we had the think of what it is. .•. um, there was another one in there. I can't And now we have the Holy Cross Fathers. There's another one that should go in there. He was here five years. S.R: Why are they different? L.W: Well S.R: Is it a di fferent grading? L.W: Well, some of them are like an order Priest, like the Carmelites ••. and the Holy Cross, they're order Priests. seminaries. They have their own The Holy Cross Fathers, they teach in the whole community and all our children from St. Joseph's School attend the ••• after the eighth grade, they go to Notre Dame School, and they used to go to Loretta Academy. a school. Of course Loretta Academy is no longer Our priest here now is ••• would you like his name? S.R: ( Sure. L.W: It's Father Joseph Ingroa and he also serves the Redemptress Nuns at the convent on the Niagara Boulevard. S.R: Where would that be? L.W: The Niagara Boulevard, right down by the Christian College. S.R: Oh that's where it is, down by the college? L.W: Yeah. S.R: You mentioned this Loretta School, where and what was that? L.W: Loretta Academy, well that was the He also serves there every day. .•• He goes there every day. the nuns have been there that's ••• over a hundred years old and the nuns used to have high school there. In fact, they used to have elementary too, but then they just had the high school. S.R: Where was that? L.W: Niagara Falls. And then there's Mount Carmel College right next door to it where the Carmelite Fathers reside. S.R: Could you •. . ! know you have been involved in many things the church has had, could you tell me what some of them are? The different organizations that you've been involved with. L.W: ( Well, I've . •. ! was the founder of the Catholic Women's League there, I was organist for twenty-five years, I assisted the Sacrasten and (4 ) �organized many social events. They used to have dances, and bingos ( and card parties. S.R: L.W: What other organizations have you been involved with? Daughters of Isabella. S.R: What is that? L.W: That is a Catholic Women's Organization offiliated with the Knight's of Columbus. S.R: What does the organization do? L.W: They do, like...oh they get...I don't know how to say it now...missionary work and give donations in the area to help out in the community. They have Meals On Wheels. S.R: The Daughters of Isabella, how long has that been operating? L.W: I couldn't tell you but that's been for years, many years, in Niagara Falls here. It's been for thirty-four years in Niagara Falls, but it has been operating in different communities much longer than that. S.R: L.W: ( Is it in the Stevensville - Fort Erie area at all? Well, there's just four people from Fort Erie and there's no Catholics in the Stevensville area. Niagara Falls is the headquarters for that. S.R: What other organizations? L.W: What have I told you? S.R: Okay, you said the Catholic Women's League, you were an organist, and the Sacristan, and Daughters of Isabella. L.W: And, well I guess for the church that's probably... S.R: Other than the church now. What organizations outside of the church have you been involved in? L.W: Children's Aid for twenty-five years. I was on the board of the Children's Aid, and I organized an auxiliary, clothing auxiliary. We had a depot in Welland, and I used to have all the women from the community come and sew and give the clothes to the Children's Aid so they wouldn't have to buy new clothes. I organized this auxiliary to the Children's Board, affiliated with the boards I guess, or however you want to place it. I can't put it just right. S.R: L.W: ( What other activities were the Children's Aid involved in? Well, placing children. S.R: Oh, was it an adoption facility? L. W: Adoption, oh yes. I conducted an adoption campaign in the whole (5) �diocese, where I called on 37 parishes and put on a film and an adoption program for adoptions. S.R: Is this located in Niagara Falls too? L.W: It was associated with the St. Catharines Children's Aid Society. S.R: I know for adoption now, it's really hard to get children. What was it like before? Was it very hard to get a child? L.W: There were times when it was easy, but it has the last few years ...of course I haven't been too active, but it has been harder to get a child. S.R: What about separate schools? I heard you were involved in something to do with separate schools. L.W: Well, we have a school right here at St. Joseph's. And then I was with the retarded, the secretary-treasurer. I was on the board of the Elsie English School for the retarded, and I was secretary-treasurer there. S.R: Where is that? L.W: That's right down in Fort Erie there... Elsie English School. S.R: Would you know what street? L.W: Um...I used to go all the time but I can't tell ya. S.R: Where abouts... what's it close to? L.W: Pretty near into Fort Erie. On...the Elsie English School, anybody could tell you where that is. I don't know if it's in the book or not. S.R: What does this Elsie English School do? L.W: I beg your pardon. S.R: What does the Elsie English... is it a girls school, is it a school for the retarded? L.W: It's for the retarded, for both boys and girls. S.R: And you were involved with it, or involved in setting it up? L.W: I was secretary-treasurer. S.R: Do you know when the school came about? L.W: No, I can't tell you dates. S.R: Has it been for a long time? L.W: Oh yes, it's been for a long time. Well you could find that. .. l'm sure there'd be some history on that in your library, something about the Elsie English School. I'm sure there would be. Buffalo Road, Buffalo Road wasn't it. (6) �S.R: L.W: Yeah, it's the Crescent Park area. S.R: Have you been involved in anything else? L.W: ( That's in Crescent Park. Did you put down that I was a graduate of the Lewis Hotel Training Course? S.R: No. L.W: I graduated from the Lewis Hotel Training School in Washington D.C., and I've been on the Hotel Association. I was secretary-treasurer for the local Hotel Association and I always attended all conventions in Toronto, New York and many other places. Any time there was a convention, I always went to the convention. S.R: This Hotel Association, your parents owned the Commercial Hotel. Is that what it was called then? It didn't have any other name, it was just the Commercial Hotel? L.W: S.R: When did your parents purchase it and who did they buy it from? L.W: From Joseph Bauer in 1910. S.R: ( Commercial Hotel yeah. Willicks... it was called mostly Willicks. Could you please tell me a little o;f the history of the hotel? L.W: Well that... I did mention about the. . . when we went in, there was a beer license, but in 1916, as a war measure, they closed up, they didn't let us sell beer any longer. But my mother would serve meals all the time, and we took care of people such as Bell Telephone or anybody like that that had groups of men that had to have dinner, you know, they had to have food. Then in 1916 when she closed, she still continued giving rooms and giving the meals at the hotel. Then we got the hotel back in 1934. S.R: The license? L.W: The license came back then in 1934 and we opened... Well in the meantime we put in a grocery store. And my father took a meat route. He started out with horses and then he wound up with a little truck. But he delivered meat along the Niagara Boulevard and all the way into Fort Erie, well almost to Fort Erie, around... and then he'd come back this way. Well see, he started out with the horses and then he went into a car, he went into a truck. A meat truck he called it. And he had the meat route, and we put ( a grocery store in where the hotel was. But then we continued (7) �on with the grocery store as well as the hotel when the license was returned to us in 1934. S.R: So then even after it was used as a hotel again the grocery store was still in the building itself? L.W: We took our kitchen and made a store out of it. My mother says, they took our license away from us once and I'm not going to be without another business. She put a store in the back and put a kitchen on the back and still continued the hotel and we still accomodated you know. And we used to have everybody coming, like members of Parliament, and we used to have policemen from Buffalo, anybody going to and from the Fort Erie Race Track. Many horse owners were in there. E. P. Taylor, plenty of them, many of them. I. .. what else was I going to say now? Well I don't know. Of course, we sold. . . we didn't get to the part yet where we sold then did we? S.R: No. L.W: What else did you want to ask me? S.R: We're still in the hotel part of it. In the 30's when they gave your license back, then your mother put a store into it and she built a ( new kitchen onto it, and then what happened next? L.W: Well then, and then I mentioned the prominent people that used to call on us, such as Humphrej Mitchell and who else did I say. We used to have people such as Humphre� Mitchell and who was .. .I was trying to get the Conservative member on there too. S.R: You had a little story about, something about the elections. You used to be involved in the elections. L.W: I worked on the elections from the time I had a vote for fifty years. I was either D.R.O. or clerk. S.R: What was D.R.O.? L.W: Deputy Returning Officer. I was always for enumeration, whether I say, whether it was on a local election, provincial or federal, or whatever the election was, I was always called because I like doing it. And then when I, after fifty years I refused to go on any longer and they told me that my records, when they would open my box, my records were always in order. S.R: ( That was a very good compliment then, right? L.W: Well, I thought maybe that was worth putting on. And then also (8) �that I took part when the Peace Bridge was opened that the Prince, ( when the Prince of Wales was here, myself and two of my cousins danced in wooden shoes and sang a German song. S.R: For the Prince of Wales? L.W: For the Prince of Wales, Eddy. S.R: I'd like to talk more about the Peace Bridge opening a little bit later. When did you get rid. ..when did you sell the Commercial Hotel and why? L.W: In 1948. Well, because as I say, my mother was seventy-five and I didn't think that she should carry on working any longer. Then I remodelled an old place which was a hotel...did you put in the part where there was three hotels here? S.R: No, you haven't said that part yet. L. W: Well, I remodelled one place, it was an old hotel, and made living quarters, and my mother wasn't satisfied to just sit and sew and knit. She wanted to be working. So we put in the store. And up until '59 when she passed away, the night before, she was in there serving pop. She got old folks pnetnonia and she was in the hospital ( for one week, and I used to go down and sit with her every night. I'd be in the store here in the daytime and I used to go and sit with her every night 'til she passed away. That was in '59. S.R: And how old was she? L.W: 84. S.R: Who did you sell the hotel to then? L.W: To Andrew Zuba. S.R: You had menitoned there were three hotels. L.W: There were three hotels. This was a hotel, that hotel and the one where the parking lot is, where the parking lot is burnt down. But there were three churches and three hotels, but the two churches survived, and two of the hotels are gone. Of course the new hotel has been remodelled, which you saw the picture of there. And then there have been four generations of Andrews in the hotel. Andrew Bauer, Andrew Willick, Andrew Zuba, and Andrew ...oh what's their name.. . Warbuck. Four...it just seems kind of odd, but Andrew Bauer ( was one of the oldest sons and he was home working in the hotel, and then my father was Andrew, and then there was Andrew Zuba (9) �and Andrew War...you know, that's a coincidence. ( S.R: Do you recall the other two hotel's names.? L.W: No, I don't, no I don't. S.R: The churches...? L.W: St. Josephs Roman Catholic Church, and St. Johns Lutheran Church and this was St. Johns Presbyterian. Of course they are united now. They switched to, the United and Presbyterians are United Church, but the Lutheran is still St. Johns Lutheran Church. S.R: The house you're living in right now on Snyder Road used to be a hotel, and then there was the Commercial Hotel and then... ? L.W: I don't know the name of the other ones. S.R: The other one... what is it that Nigh's Sweet Shop used to be? L.W: Oh, no that, that was, that used to be the old Critz home. The family that... then they built this house right next door here. But then Mr. Critz died, Joseph Critz died years and years ago, but then it was just a home and then Mr. John Willick...no Nicholas Critz had the first post office there and a grocery store. They had a grocery store. He had a grocery store and the post office ( and Mr. John Willick used to carry the mail every morning at six o'clock. He'd meet the train, the T.H.&:B. Train [Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo], and carry the mail back and put it in the post office, then people would go to the post office. When I was a little girl...I don't know whether you'd want this to go on there or not...when I was a little girl, I had two Great Dane dogs, and I was just so I could see over the dogs, and I used to walk from there up to the post office and get the mail. I've always been a lover of dogs. You can see I've got one out there now. But I mean, that doesn't have to go on there, it's just another part of my life. But I can just see. .. I can still remember, what I mean, I used to walk with these two Great Danes, hang on by the collars, and go down the road with them. As I say, I've had dogs and horses every since. S.R: Speaking of horses, you said your dad had race horses and things, he also...it would be a chauffeur now, but there was a different name for it then when he used to drive people around. L.W: Hackman. That's what my father was on that picture. S.R: Could you please...you said he had a big experience one time when (IO) �he was a hackman. Could you please tell about it? ( L.W: Well, in 190 I, when the Pan American Exposition was in Buffalo, President McKinley and the Shelcoff Family owned these horses that my father was hackman for. He had just driven Mrs. McKinley to the exposition, and let her out of the carriage when a young man came along and went to shake hands with the President, and pulled his hand out from under his coat and shot him right there. Then they took this man and. . . people were going to tear him limb from limb, so my father and a couple policemen got him into this hack and drove him down to the police station. And then he went over to the railroad station and met Teddy Roosevelt who at the time was Vice President, and my father saw Teddy Roosevelt installed as President of the United States. S.R: What was this man's family, what the man's name that murdered the President? L.W: Saulgaush. S.R: Are there any other stories that you can remember your father telling you, p e.rt aining to history? ( L.W: I don't, I forget what we've covered. We've talked about a lot of things but I don't know just what's on there. About the Beach, about us dancing at the Beach. Have you got that on? S.R: No, I haven't asked those questions yet. Is there anything you can remember that your father used to tell you, like from before you were born, that has to do with history, any stories? L.W: Not especially. He worked in Buffalo. My mother was from Ohio. Her name was Rose Friedman if that's of any interest. And we were Alsace Lorraine, we weren't Jewish. Not that it makes any difference. S.R: You were Alsace Lorraine? L.W: Well yeah. In the time period of the French or the Germans, I'm not sure which. I think maybe it was moreso Germans rather than... S.R: Talking more about the community, could you take me down a little memory walk down the main street in Stevensville, telling the stores that were on it, and how things have changed, any prominent people, things like that? ( L.W: Well, to tell you the truth, things have changed in Stevensville so (11) �much I don't know. And do you know, there used to be, in this town, ( there used to be a cider mill owned by Mr. John Morningstar, and there used to be a saw mill where he used to saw lumber. And there used to be a butcher shop owned by Willick brothers, many, many long years ago. That was before my time but I've heard of it. Now speaking of the post office there, I did make a little mistake. Mr. Johnny Willick used to have a little post office on his own residence and he lived on Sodom Road. Then the post office was moved up to the Critz Store. S.R: That is now Nigh's Sweet Shop? L.W: Yeah. S.R: And then it moved.. . ? L.W: It moved from the Sodom Road, from there up. It was between the church and that road here. And of course the change was made here, this was just a few years ago. This was just since we've been here. This road used to be, that road didn't used to be in there, that's Stevensville Road. This was all Stevensville Road and they came here and came to the cemetery and turned. This road has ( just been in, oh, maybe ten years. S.R: Oh, so you had, you always had a little right-hand turn here on Stevensville Road instead of going straight. L.W: Yeah. S.R: Are there very many industries in Stevensville, were there? L.W: Really not. The saw mill that's burnt down, and there was...the grist mill is still there, and the feed mill, and there's two or three garages, the bank, the hotel, and I don't know how many churches.. . two or three churches, and the United and Brethren, and then there's the United, and I don't know, I guess maybe that's all the churches. And then Brethren in Christ, of course that's further on up the road. S.R: Fire Departments? L.W: Well now, I couldn't tell you very much about them. They had a fire hall just right across the railroad track in Stevensville. I'm sure somebody in Stevensville could tell you more about that. S.R: L.W: { Who was the earliest fire chief that you can recall? I wouldn't want to say that I'm exactly correct, but I know of Edgar Heximer, but there could have been somebody else ahead of him, (la) �I wouldn't be too sure. He's passed away, Edgar Heximer has. Oh ( and then Frank Shear used to have a seed mill in Stevensville. S.R: Frank Shear? L.W: Yes, he used to have a seed mill where he sep rated seed and sold it and one thing and another. I may be missing something. Oh, there used to be a printer in Stevensville. Oh, there still is a print shop in Stevensville, but you know, I wouldn't want to be.. . and there used to be a shoe maker, Mr. Schwartz. But I mean, now they have changed. There's things out there that I don't even know about. There's hair dressers out there. There's the bank, restaurants, the hotel right on that corner, and there's the plumbers, an insurance agency ...what I mean, there might be some other little things, I wouldn't want to be quoted on this Stevensville. S.R: It's the way you remember things in stuff like that. Nothing, everything that's said isn't always necessarily fact because a lot of things were so long ago that it's hard to remember things as actual fact. So it's the way you remember things. ( L.W: Yeah, well that's the things that were. As I say, if I'm missing somebody why, it's something new. S.R: Were you ever around any major fires to see... before there were fire hydrants and things like that, how did they put the fires out? L.W: They used to haul the water in trucks and just spray . . . S.R: Oh then, with the pump? L.W: Pump like yeah. S.R: And where did they get the water? L.W: Well they had to go around to the creek and get it. Either Black Creek , the creek in Stevensville, the nearest water facility that there was I guess. I know when the water came in, they were only going to bring it to Stevensville and I was on my high-horse then. I went down to the council and I went around to everybody and I took up a petition that we would get the water in this area. We were only half a mile, or a mile from Stevensville and they were bringing the water out there and weren't going to bring it out here. Well, and we should have sewers now. If I were capable I'd go up ( there now and raise cain and we'd have sewers in this town instead of just.. .we're using septic tanks. But I took up a petition in order (13) �to get the water into this area. S.R: Did you have to use cisterns before that? L.W: Yes. S.R: Buying water by the truckload? L.W: You'd buy it by the truckload and what came off the roof. S.R: Oh, from eavetroughs. L.W: Rain water. But I took up a petition to have the water brought into Snyder. I didn't think about that. S.R: Would you recall the major effects of the; Depression time on your family or in the area, or were you better off because you had the hotel and store? Did that really help? L.W: We personally didn't feel the Depression too much. S.R: You had what your needs were and things like that. And I recall you saying that your dad had a meat route, did you have a farm? L.W: No, he used to kill his own cattle. He had a slaughter house in back. S.R: Oh, so he had to buy cows from people, full grown cows from people. L.W: He'd buy the cattle and slaughter them. And many's a night that I'd go out with him and hold the lantern while he was killing a calf ( or a lamb or something. I was kind of hard hearted. Chickens, he used to kill chickens. I used to help clean chickens... pulled the feathers off. S.R: Did you sell any of the stuff in the store or was it all on this meat route? L.W: Well, if somebody wanted something in the store we'd sell it, you know. S.R: What was there to do for entertainment when you were on a date back then? L.W: Well, we used to have dances, and. we used to have house parties and things like that. ..go from one anothers house and have sandwiches and lunch and entertain. It would seem that we had better days then than we do now. And we used to, we used to have a lot more dances. We used to have a dance a week over here in this hall. But of course that's all petered out when the bigger places got going. S.R: ( What about Erie Beach or Crystal Beach for entertainment? L. W: Oh well, there used ... I don't know anything about the entertainment (14 ) �( out there, you know what I mean. S.R: Entertainment is just going and doing things. Did you go to Erie Beach or Crystal Beach? L.W: Oh, I used to love the... oh those horses that would go up... the Merry-Go-Round, and the. ..what do you call the, that high ride like what they have now. They're much higher these days. S.R: The Roller Coaster? L.W: The Roller Coaster and all those things. We got to Crystal Beach maybe twice a year or something like that. And we used to go to the beach and...we couldn't swim and my mother would let us wade into the water up to our knees. But they'd watch us. We didn't dare, we'd go into the water but didn't dare get wet. S.R: Oh, there weren't places around for you to learn how to swim? Is that why? L.W: Oh, she never would let us swim, anyway, some people used to swim but we didn't. We didn't get to the beach too much. S.R: Did you ever visit the dance hall there, Hke the ballroom? L.W: Oh yes, I've been to the dance hall there, yes. The roller skating ( rink. Yeah, the roller skating rink and the dance hall. That was about all that was there then. There wasn't ...they've got so many new things now. All these new games and that, you know, that I wouldn't ... S.R: Do you recall any of the famous bands? L.W: Bands? S.R: In the ballroom. L.W: George Hirsch, he used to live in Chippawa and he had a violin and he would play, play, play, play, and then.. . he used to play over here at the hall. And then we had Mrs. Finns Orchestra. That's at this hall, not at Crystal Beach. I don't know any of the names over there at Crystal Beach. Mrs. Finn, Mary Finn, she's still living in Niagara Falls. She's way up in her eighties, but she's.. .once in a while the senior citizens have a do and she's on the job. S.R: How did you get to Crystal Beach, the Am usement Park, just by horse and buggy or were there any public transportations? L.W: Well, there used to be, years and years ago there used to be a bus but we used to go as a family with our old surrey. Or else, after (1 5) �( we got to the cars naturally we had the car. S.R: What about Erie Beach? L.W: We didn't go to Erie Beach too much. We didn't get to Erie Beach too much. It was a little far off. I don't remember being at Erie Beach more than about three or four time in my life. I remember as I say, this night that we danced, and I think maybe once or twice we went up there. We had some friends from Buffalo that had a cottage there and we would visit her or something, you know. S.R: What about doctors and dentists? L.W: Well, we had dear old Dr. J. B. Buell in Stevensville 'til he passed away. And then my dentist was always Dr. Chapman in Fort Erie. He's gone. Then there were doctors in Ridgeway, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Stackhouse, but I never had anything to do with them. We had Dr. Buell here, he was...he was always here if you wanted. He'd come out all hours of the night to do anything for you. S.R: What were the payments back then that you can remember? L.W: Payments, like what? S.R: Doctors bills. There wasn't any insurance was there? Was there any medical insurance? L.W: No, there was no medical plan, no. But I couldn't tell you... S.R: What about hospitals, were there any home hospitals, maternity hospitals, anything like that, do you remember, or did you have to go to Niagara Falls to the hospital? L.W: Yes, Niagara Falls, or Fort Erie would be the closest hospital, Welland. S.R: Before Douglas Memorial was built. L.W: There was nothing that I know of. I remember when that was built. But there was nothing. I don't know if there was any buildings there before or not. But I remember when the Douglas Memorial was built. S.R: Going back to when you owned the Commercial Hotel, there was a Mr. George House. It was his job to see that the hotel was run properly... L.W: That it was properly licensed, and that the proper ... they had regular prices for things those days...the prices was right, and they had hours that...I think that you'd have to close up at ten o'clock or something, and they weren't to be open on Sundays. But sometimes (16) �they would, after church was out if the people would like a beer 1 ( they'd go into the hotel and have a beer. And then when Mr. House was in Chippawa they used to always phone up and say George was on his wa�. And George would come up and he'd come in our back door. My mother would have a bunch of sandwiches there and she'd say, George do you want a sandwich and a cup of coffee. He'd visit with us, and I think I used to even sit on his lap. S.R: So you would get the phone call and then everybody would quick clear out, right? L. W: And all the other hotels the same, you know. Well there weren't, we were the only hotel when we were there, we were the only one. This one was closed and so was the other one so there was just the one. S.R: Do you remember any other stories involved in the hotel days? L.W: Well, there was an awful lot of them, but I don't know what... anything that would be too interesting. I think I've told you most of it. S.R: ( Were there any...was it always a nice quiet bunch in there or did you ever have problems where you had to call the police in? L.W: Not really bad no. It wasn't like it is today. I think today they have more... it isn't always the drink that makes them what they are today. I think those days they had their little old beers and a drink of liquor if they wanted. But in those days I think beer was a great big super ten cents, and they used to have liquor. They'd give you the bottle and you could pour you own liquor and it was ten cents a shof or three shots for a quarter. S.R: A big difference from now. L.W: Oh, I should say so. You'd pour your own. Things were much more peaceful and orderly. S.R: Was it just a family project or did you have to hire somebody to help? L.W: Well, we used to have to have some help. My mother was so fussy about her cooking that I'd see the help standing there and she'd be doing the work herself. We used to maybe employ one or two people, you know, and the family. S.R: ( What about bartenders, did you have to be eighteen then to serve booze or twenty-one, or was there an age? (17) �L.W: Yes, they had to be twenty-one to have a drink. S.R: What about to serve alcohol, to be a barmaid? L.W: It was the same thing. S.R: You still had to be twenty-one then too? L.W: Yep. S.R: Do you recall any of your employees from back then? L.W: To tell you the truth ...well they're all passed on. They're all gone. Mrs. Morningstar that used to live next door here, Lucinda Morningstar, and of course my sisters husband. He used to tend bar. S.R: What was your sisters husband's name? L.W: Albert Sterry. Vincent Willick of course, he was my brother, he was a bartender. That was after '34, and before that of course there was my father, you know, Andrew Willick. S.R: How did you get your liquor during Prohibition? Or were you very good and you didn't sell during Prohibition or anything like that? You know how a lot of the hotels, they have their stories. L.W: To tell you the truth, I don't remember. They called it bootlegging in those days. But I don't remember where, I don't remember where ( dad used to get it. But we didn't sell too much during Prohibition. We didn't sell too much during Prohibition. S.R: It was just to your really regular customers that used to come in. Or would you just sell a bottle of it instead. L.W: Yes. It was... we didn't sell too much during Prohibition. Prohibition was like from '16 to '34. S.R: Do you recall any stories from the bootlegging, rumrunning days.? L.W: Well, I know that down here at Black Creek there used to be plenty of it down there. What I mean is, they used to go across to the island in boats. S.R: To Grand Island? L.W: Yes. In boats, and there used to be quite a few of them. When they thought they were going to be caught they would just dump the whole thing right into the river. But what I mean, I knew several of them down there that did it. S.R: ( Do you recall anything about hijacking? I heard that numerous times trucks that had the booze in it that were going to the boats, they were hijacked. Then somebody else could sell the booze across (18) �to the States and they wouldn't have to buy it, they had ( stolen it from somebody else. L.W: Yeah, well that could be. I remember the hijacking but I couldn't tell you anything definite on it. But I know right down here at Black Creek there was plenty of hijacking done, oh, and across the island there, you know. There was ... I don't want to mention any names. S.R: What kind of employment was there for the women that needed to work? L.W: The women that what? S.R: The women that needed to work. Say their husband died or something like that, or he was sick, and she had to support them. What kind of employment was there to do for those kind of women? L.W: Nothing here in New Germany. S.R: It was just men that worked? L.W: Yeah. And most of them were farmers around, you know. Most of them worked on the farm. In those days everyone ( was farmers. S.R: Back when you were younger, there's always been different men's groups like the Lions and the Masons and different groups, were there women's groups back then? L.W: Oh yes, the Masons have somebody, and I guess there's the Lioness, I wouldn't know... there's a Lioness in Stevensville. I don't know whether they had them years back, I don't know how long they've been, you know. There aren't no Lions here in New Germany. You're probably going to be surveying somebody in Stevensville which will be able to tell you a little bit more about .. will be able to tell you a little bit more about what's going on in Stevensville now because I don't know...a lot of the people that I used to work with like Mrs. Heximer and the different ones, they're not here anymore, you know. Other people have taken over so.. .I could tell you somebody's name and I might be wrong, you know. S.R: Did you know J. L.Kraft when he used to live in Stevensville? �( L. W: I've heard of him but I don't know...he's connected with the Kraft Cheese people and he's related to the Sid Tripp family which aren't very many of them left anymore. And the Kraft Cheese people, they originated in Fort Erie. S.R: But he went to school in Stevensville. L.W: He may have, yes. S.R: And that's why I was just curious if you knew about him. But oh, you went to school more outside of Stevensville because you never had a chance to go to high school. L.W: Yeah, down here in Willoughby, yeah. My sisters and them went to Stevensville to the high school because that was the only high school...when I wanted to go to high school I was cheated out of the high school. I was... they had Bertie and Willoughby Township were separated, and at that time when it came up that if a teacher had more than I think 38 pupils or something, and I had had permission from the inspector and from three trustees, my father, that I could go to Stevensville and go to high school there. Miss Lawson ( was there at the time and she had more than her 38 pupils and she sent me home. And I remember crying. My father drove me out...I remember crying and walking in the ditch all the way home, and I didn't get to high school. S.R: There was nothing you could do about changing it then? L.W: Well after feeling like that I didn't even want to go. Well, then within the meantime things changed in the home and I had to take over there, being the eldest you see. My father passing away and one thing and another, so... S.R: Is there anything you could think of that we haven't talked about that you would like to discuss? L.W: I don't know, I don't think so. I think I've had a pretty full life. I can't at the moment think of anything that... we've talked about a lot of things. I don't know... I've done so many things that I don't even remember what I've told you. And as I say, I have quite a few of these awards from the Mental ( Health. I really enjoyed that very, very much. I met a lot of awfully nice people. (U)) �{ S.R: What did you do there? L.W: Well, they took people that weren't just up to par and they had a. .. oh what did they call her, Mrs. Strange, she... S.R: Mrs. Strange? L.W: Mrs. Joy Strange, yeah. Mrs. Arthur Strange from Niagara Falls. She was the supervisor there for a long time. And they had classes and tried to help these people if they weren't exactly retarded, but they were just a little bit, you know. They just needed a little counselling. And then I always attended the meetings. I'd go down with, I used to go down with Gama Chapman. .. oh he was in Fort Erie. But he was one of the head chief dentists down there for years and years and years. There's a young man that has his office down there now. I can't think of what his name is, but, and somebody else. He's a great big tall man from Fort Erie that you might know. I know him and his brother...names seem to be getting away from me, I noticed that. That's ( one of my weaknesses now. S.R: When did the... what's it called? When did the mentally retard ed organization start? Do you know how long it's been around? L.W: Oh, that's been around for a long time. You mean the one down in Fort Erie? Oh, that's. ..the Elsie English School, anybody could tell you that down there from Fort Erie. I'm sure you'd get that at the library. And the council appointed me. . . Bruce Finch at the time was Reeve of Bertie Township, and he called me up and he asked me if I'd go on the board of the mentally retarded. And they put me on as secretary-treasurer. I used to pay the teachers and you know, different things, take the minutes and one thing and another. Oh, I was on there for quite a few years. I'm trying to think of. . . names just seem to be passing away from me. I used to enjoy it. Meetings was my hobby. Others would be out having fun doing this or that and I'd be going to a meeting of some kind. { They're always teasing me. And I had a hobby of wearing (21) �hats. It was much easier because I was always on the heavy side which you can see, and I used to have a hobby... it was easier for me to go and buy a hat then it was a dress. And there's more people remember me by my hats. In fact, we had a Priest over here at the church who hadn't been here for about twenty years, and I was coming out to the door and he was saying good-bye to me, he said, well were's some of those beautiful hats you used to be wearing? S.R: Hats used to really be in style then. L.W: Yes. I spent an awful lot of money on hats. I used to go to Buffalo to that store right next door to the Statler Hotel, and I used to buy my clothes. They were expensive but I always had good clothes. I always felt well dressed. I used to get hats there, when I couldn't buy a dress I'd buy a hat. At a meeting one time a Priest said to the other Priest, well listen he says, why do you always have to get up there and make some silly remark? One day I had a beautiful big black hat on with a water lily, he said, Loretta, well ( when are you going to water your lily? So this other Priest said to him, I didn't hear it but he told me after, why do you always tease Loretta about her hats? He says, well, by the time I get through talking about her silly hats they don't care what I say. So, hats have always been my hobby. But of course, they're not wearing them now very much. But I think they're coming back. I think they're coming back. S.R: Is there anything else you'd like to comment on before I close? L.W: Well, there's nothing that I really can think of. I can't think .. of anyth ing. We've discussed so much that I don't . ! don't think I've had time to do much else. S.R: L.W: Well, I'm glad that's you've enjoyed it. S.R: ( It's been a very good interview Miss Willick. Thank you very much for the interview. L.W: Well, that's fine. (22.) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Shelley Richer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Loretta Willick Location The location of the interview. 3255 Stevensville Road, Stevensville Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Willick, Loretta Description An account of the resource Provided here is Loretta Willick's interview. She discusses such topics as: Schools Churches Bertie Fair Race Track Peace Bridge Hotels and taverns Buffalo Stevensville Fire Department The Depression Erie Beach Crystal Beach Amusement Park Douglas Memorial Hospital Bootlegging Politics and Government Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 22, 1985 1980s 1985 Bertie fair Buffalo churches Crystal Beach amusement park Douglas Memorial hospital Erie Beach Fort Erie Great Depression hotels and taverns Oral history peace bridge politics and government race track schools stevensville transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/fabb9899a911c92ffa19e3cd7cd0ba76.pdf 19eb7ae087f0633b88bba8f961c2b080 PDF Text Text This is Charlotte Nielsen interviewing Mrs. Carrie Wallace at nineteen High Street on April sixteenth, nineteen eighty-five. C.N. What is your full name? C.W. Carrie Louise Wallace C.N. When were you born? C.W. Eighteen ninety-five. C.N. You just had a birthday a little while ago. Your picture was in the paper. How old are you now? C.W. Ninety years old. C.N. Did you have a big birthday celebration? C.W. There were what I call two large parties at the Duplicate Bridge Club entertained at a dinner bridge and my son entertained at a dinner party for twenty six family members at Leo's restaurant. C.N. Did you enjoy yourself? c.w. I did but it was quite nerve wracking. It took quite a lot out of me. You know what I mean. It was ... C.N., l, Did everyone make a big fuss of you? c.w. Oh yes. They gave me beautiful presents. C.N. You've lived a long time. c.w. No. I think not. I have been a very busy person most of my life. Do you have a secret to long life? I grew up on a farm and I used to milk cows, clean out stables. C.N. Where was this farm? c.w. On the corner of Ridge and Bertie road, two miles from Ridgeway. C.N. Did you get into Ridgeway very often? c.w. You sure � went to town a couple of times a week in a horse and buggy. C.N. Now, were you born on this farm? c.w. Yes. C.N. Did your parents call a doctor when you were born? c.w. No it was a midwife, two women who did that sort of thing� C.N. Did you have any brothers and sisters? c.w. Yes, I was one of ten. C.N. Were you the youngest, the oldest? c.w. There were five younger than I was. C.N. Did you help raise your younger brothers and sisters? (1) �C.W. I always had to rock the era die. C.N. And how many girls and how many boys were in your family? C.W. There were five girls and five boys. C.N. That must have made life confusing. How did your mother cope with having that many children? C.W. When we were very young mother had a woman who helped and lived at our house and worked at that time and my father had a hired man on the farm. It was at that time my grandmother's farm. We lived with her. C.N. Did your father and the hired man run the farm? C.W. Yes. C.N. You mentioned cows. C.W. We always had at least three horses, one team for farm work and What else did they do besides raise cows? one driving horse, one kind of fancy stepper. C.N. Did you know how to ... I don't know how to ask this question because I'm not familiar with horses. Did you know how to handle that horse? c.w. Oh yes. C.N. Is that difficult to ride bareback? c.w. Well, I thought I was doing something when I did that. C.N. I imagine it would hurt. Does it? c.w. Well, it's scary,you know, but we were youngsters and full of life. c.w. Did your brother and sisters all ride? c.w. Not all of them. C.N. ( I used to drive that horse. I used to ride that horse bareback. Did your father use a lot of the food he grew or produced to feed Some did. the family? C.W. Oh yes. trees. We always had a large garden. We had wonderful fruit My grandfather had planted them and we had everything, all kinds of plums, different types, Crawford peaches: Early Crawford and Late Crawford.I believe those are about the only two people grew then. We had all kinds of pears and apples, a large apple orchard. C.N. C.W. Oh, yes. C.N. ( Did your mother do alot of canning? Did you help with this? C.W. Sometimes. (2) �( C.N. The cows you had ... Were they raised for milk or for meat? c.w. To sell the milk and mother also churned; made wonderful butter: It had so much flavour that the store butter doesn't have now: C.N. Did you churn the butter at all? c.w. I helped. C.N.. What things did you buy from the store in the way of food? c.w. Sugar and tea and coffee. C.N. So you did produce a lot of your own groceries. c.w. Yes, they didn't have green grocer stores in Ridgeway We'd all get sometimes tired churning, at that time or even Fort Erie. C.N. Did you ever go into Fort Erie at that time? c.w. Yes, we used to drive to Fort Erie: C.N. What did you do that for? c.w. My father used to go down to the Bridgeburg market to sell cucumbers. Bridgeburg. They used to grow many cucumbers and we children used to pick them. And cucumber season he went down to the market nearly every day: ( the Bridgeburg market. C.N. What was your father's name? C.W. Athoe, A.T.H.O. E. C.N. Did he inherit his farm? C.W. Yes, from his parents: C.N. They would have the same name. C.W. Y es. C.N. And what was your mother's name? C.W. Heatherington. C. W. Where did you go to school? C.N., Where did you go to school? C.W. The Garrison Road number ten Bertie. C.N. What kind of school was it? C.W. A one room red brick school house. C.N. Do you remember C.W. Yes, I remember some of my teachers. his mother. your teacher? I remember Miss Murphey very well who later became Mrs. Oscar Teal of Fort Erie� C.N. What was she like? The teacher. C.W. She was very energitic, Irish background� very active� had to work. (3) We really �C.N. Did you like school? c.w. Yes. C.N. What subjects did you study? c.w. ( We took most of the usual studies in public school that they have today. C.N. Did you have a lot of homework? c.w. Yes we had homework. C.N. Ho w much time would you spend doing homework as a child? c.w. Usually, an hour every night. C.N. Did you do well in school? c.w. Fairly well. C.N. Did you go to high school? c.w. I went to Ridgeway High School for two years and that's all you could get in Ridgeway at that time. Those who got more had to go Welland but most of us didn't have ways to get to Welland. C.N. I imagine it would have been expensive and inconvenient to go to Welland. c.w. Yes. C.N. What did you do when you finished high school? c.w. I went to Buffalo and lived with my aunt and uncle in Buffalo. C.N. What did your aunt and uncle do in Buffalo? c.w. ' He was, my uncle was a railroad man. He was the division passenger agent for the Pennsylvania Railroad. C.N. What does that mean? c.w. He was in charge of all passenger going trains between Buffalo and Philadelphia. C.N. What did you do while you were living with your aunt and uncle? c.w. I worked in a gift shop and later for the Western Union. C.N. What did you do for the Western Union? c.w. I used to receive telegrams at the old Exchange Street Station and code them into the main office. C.N., Did you know how to read morse code? c.w. It was a telephone code, tela, a telegraph company. special code. ( It was their We telephoned the messages in from the station. Most of them would be from salesmen who had been, who would be calling their main office. It was at night to let them know what kind of a day they had had in the business world and they . . . (4) �( C.N. Were these messages interesting to you? J.H. Mostly business messages. They weren't really interesting to me. It was telling what kind of a day they had had. C.N. Was this a difficult job? c.w. No it was •.• I enjoyed it. But it was on Exchange Street in Buffalo. I guess I wouldn't dare go down there now alone. C.N. c.w. Yes. I didn't think anything of it. C.N. Did you walk there at night? c.w. Sometimes. C.N. You weren't afraid then? c.w. No. C.N. Was there any violence happening at that time in Buffalo? c.w. Not that I remember of C.N. How long did you live in Buffalo? C.W. Until I was married in nineteen twenty-nine. C.N. It seems to me that's the year of the depression. C.W. I'm sorry. It was C.N. Oh! c.w. My husband's name was Wilfred William Wallace. C.N. And how old were you when you got married? c.w. Twenty-nine. C.N. Did you stop working or did you find a job here? c.w. No I didn't work. C.N. What did you do? c.w. I just lived at home, kepthouse. C.N. Did you have children? c.w. I have one son. C.N. Was he born soon after you were married? c.w. ( Did you go down there then alone? No he wasn't. ••• .•• I was married in nineteen twenty-four. Who did you marry? We were married six years before he was born. He was born in nineteen thirty-one. C.N. c.w. Yes. C.N. ( So you had six years of keeping house before you had children. What did you do with your time? C.W. I used to sew and I used to garden and grow flowers. I had many flowers. I belonged to the Horticulture Society at that time. (5) �That sounds lovely. C.W. No it wasn't large but I managed to grow quite a few things in it. Did you and your husband have your own house? c.w. Yes we bought our house when we were married. C.N. And what kind of things did you sew? c.w. I used to make my clothes. C.N. How did you go about this? c.w. Yes. C.N. What kind of clothes did you used to make? c.w. Just dresses. C.N. Where did you get your patterns? c.w. There's a question. C.N. Did you keep up with the latest fashions? c.w. Quite well. C.N. What kind of sewing machine did you use? c.w. A singer. C.N. Was it electric? C.W. No. C.N. Was it a treadle machine? c.w. Yes. C.N. When did you ... c.w. Yes. C.N. But not for your sewing machine? c.w. No. C.N. Tell me about your son. c.w. Donald James Wallace. C.N. Was he an easy child to raise? c.w. He was C.N. Did he do well in school? c.w. Yes. C.N. What kind of things did he like doing? c.w. ( C.N. C.N. ( He was ... wasn't very active, athletic boy. ... Did you have a big garden? Did you have patterns? I can't remember. I think mostly Buffalo. Sorry. Did you have electricity at that time? What was his name? I guess he was normal. He wasn't very well when he was born and he had several illnesses and so he wasn't athletic but he was a good student. ( is now a judge. (6) He became a lawyer and he �C.N. And where is he working as a judge? C.W. At Niagara Falls Ontario. C.N. ( He's had a good career then. Did you encourage him to go into law? C.W. No. He always wanted that. He used to listen to all about law and lawyers and court cases on tele a ••• programme and I believe it was radio before we had television and he used to have a certain programme that he listened to every week when it came on because he was so interested in it. C.N. And did he work hard at school so he could become a lawyer? C.W. Yes he did. C.N. And did he finance his own education or did you help him? C.W. He mostly financed it himself. He used to work, at first, as a guide at the old fort for some years and as he was growing up he decided he would like to be a grass cutter and then he used to cut grass, sometimes with a hand mower, sometimes riding on a larger mower along the boulevards cutting the grass, sometimes pushing a hand ( mower or riding, walking behind a power mower. C.N. Did he do thisin the summers? C.W. Yes. C.N. What university did he go to? C.W. He had an Honour B. A. from McMaster University, Hamilton in history and political economy and then he went to Osgood Law School. C.N. Did he get married? c.w. Yes. C.N. Who did he marry? c.w. He married Glenda Tennysson who is now a high school teacher at Niagara Falls. C.N. How old was he when he got married? Approximate.\.y. Did he finish law school first? c.w. Oh yes. I think he was thirty-two when he got married. C.N. Do they have any children? c.w. They have two children. They have a son Bill Wallace and they have an adopted daughter Kim Wallace: C.N. Do you know why they decided to adopt? (7) Kimberly. �( c.w. Yes, because the doctor didn't advise his wife to have any more children. C.N. And how old are your son's children now? c.w. Nineteen and fourteen. C.N. What are their career plans? c.w. Bill didn1t graduate from high school. He is working at the boys club. C.N. What does he do there? c.w. He instructs the young boys who come in. C.N. And you have another child, a daughter did you say? c.w. Yes. C.N. What does she want to do? c.w. I'm not sure just what she's ... She's in her first year high schoot C.N. Now you must have seen alot of changes� have you lived under: c.w. He teaches them -­ How many monarchs British monarchs. I remember very well when Queen Victoria died because my grandmother who came from Wales had seen Queen Victoria and I remembered seeing my grandmother cry when Queen Victoria died in ( my grandmother died in 1901 and 1903. C.N. And do you remember any of the other monarchs you1ve lived under? c.w. I remember King George very well and King Edward the seventh and Queen Elizabeth of course our queen now. C.N. What about the prime ministers? c.w. No I ... Did you follow politics at all? We were mostly not republicans but conservatives and I've usually been most interested in the conservative party. C.N. Do you remember when you first heard a radio? c.w. I couldn't tell you what year, C.N. Could you describe the experience? c.w. It was really ••• I certainly remember it. especially when we had the radio where we could hear, sit in the room and listen to it without earphones, It was very wonderful we thought. C.N. What did you listen to? C.W. Oh, we liked ... My husband had a nice singing voice and he liked music and Inever could sing but I liked it and we used to like having ( Shumen Heinz and the Caruso records. I remember giving them to one of our church rummage sales and I wish I had them now because they're re.Cll ly good records. (8) �C.N. They would be antiques now. c.w. Yes. C.N. What did you play the records on? c.w. On a Victro]O,a Victor VictrolaJater C.N. That was a turntable of some sort? c.w. It was a regular C.N. Would you call it a record player? c.w. I think we called it a Victrolain those days. C.N. Oh. c.w. ( Yes, we had a television in my home. .•• .•. Victor Victroa.. It was a square mahogany. And do you remember when you first saw television? My husband was ill. He was a war veteran in the first world war and he was wounded very badly. One wound was an injury to the spinal cord: a shrapnel wound, on the side of the spinal cord and he went to the old Christy Street Hospital in Toronto and they gave him a spinal anaesthetic and he never walked the same after that. anaesthetics now, I don't believe. They don't even use spinal But at that time they apparently were using them at Christy Street Hospital. ( And it was an old factory turned into a hospital for the men who returned from war. C.N. Do you feel the spinal anaesthetic harmed your husband? C.W. Oh yes. C.N. How long was your husband in the war? C.W. From early nineteen fifteen until nineteen seventeen, I don't remember .•• He never walked the same afterwards. I guess he was hospitalized for nine months at Guys Hospital England before he could come home. C.N. Did you know this? C.W. No. C.N. Oh you didn't know him at this time! C.W. No, we weren't married then. C.N. How old was he when he went off to war, approximately? C.W. I can't tell you the exact age that he went but he had had two years I didn't know him then. of study in engineering, civil engineering, at Toronto University before going to war. But when he came back he was shell shocked and not able to go back to university. C.N. How soon after coming back did he meet you? C.W. Possibly a year. C.N. Did you help him get over his shock? (9) �( c.w. I hope I did. C.N. Did he tell you about his war experiences? c.w. He didn't talk about it very much. I have heard about some of them but he didn't like to talk about it. C.N. How did the war affect you personally? c.w. My husband's last illness. He could have gone to a veteran's hospital but he said he wouldn't go and our good doctor, Dr. O'Mulliveny said if I know Wally and if I send him against his wishes he won't try to get better to live- He ••• When he became quite crippled, he said he won't try to live he'll just quit if he has to leave home so I said I would take care of him as long as I could. I took care of him flat on his back with paralysis for six years. C.N. When was this? C.W. He died in nineteen fifty C.N. So it was some time ago. C.W. Yes. C.N. Did you feel that this spinal anaesthetic had something to do with ••• November nineteen fifty-seven. his death? C.W. Our doctor insisted it did hurry it. It was sort of inactive, it had been for awhile, you know, but this paralysis became worse soon after that, right after that. C.N. Was he ever able to claim any compensation? C.W. Yes. He got a pension, war pension, at first very small. It kept increasing and now I receive a widow's war pension. C.N. How did the second world war affect your lives? C.W. Not much really. C.N. He didn't have to go to that one then. C.W. Oh no he couldn't go. C.N. Did you know anyone who did go? C.W. Yes I knew people who were in the second world war. C.N. Did they come back? C.W. Some did and some didn't. C.W. [I used to] walk in Fort &ieat Rung's Store on Jarvis Street and that was about a half mile walk from where Hived. I carried groceries home. C.N. Was this when you were married? (10) �C.W. Yes. C.N. What did you buy besides groceries in Fort Erie? C.W. We used to buy ice and buy clothes in Fort Erie My husband had had his suits made at ••• Mr. Cohen used to make his suits, a tailor on Jarvis Street. C.N. Were they custom made? c.w. Yes. No it is. ••• he used to make them. Is that custom made? I guess He was a tailor, Mr. Cohen. C.N. Did he do a good job of making suits? c.w. Yes, we liked him very much. C.N. Did he ever make anything for you? c.w. Yes, one coat. C.N. What kind of coat was it? c.w. A woolen tailored coat. C.N. Were you pleased with the kind of clothes you were able to buy in Fort Erie ? c.w. ( Yes, but we used to take the train to Toronto a couple of times a year to shop. C.N. What did you buy in Toronto? c.w. Clothes, furniture. C.N. How did Toronto compare to Fort Erie in your mind? c.w. Toronto was a large city then and Fort Erie was a small town. C.N. Did you enjoy being in Toronto? c.w. No, I don't think so. I've enjoyed living in Fort Erie very much. C.N. Why? c.w. Nice people, friendly people and I prefer a smaller place. C.N. Is there anything else you would like to talk about or say? c.w. We used to like to go to Buffalo. C.N. Why? c.w. Good shows. Would you have liked to live there? They had some wonderful theatres: The Teck Theatre, the old Star Theatre, wonderful plays and wonderful good vaudeville and vaudeville, ••• C.N. What was vaudeville? C.W. It was on Court Street in Buffalo. C.N. ( ••• What was it like? C.W. A mixture of shows. They had good performers (11) �C.N. What kind of shows? c.w. Some musical, some dancing, some C.N. Was there any entertainment for you in Fort Erie? c.w. ( Later they had Ziff's. ••• a lot of music Mrs. Ziff ran the moving picture house. It was on Dufferin Street. We used to like to go down to the movies. C.N. Were these silent movies? c.w. Yes. C.N. Do you remember any of them? c.w. I can't really think of them right now. C.N. Do you remember when they first got the talking movies in Fort Erie? c.w. No I wouldn't remember that change. C.N. Is there anything else you'd like to say? c.w. I can't really think of anything else. C.N. On behalf of the Fort Erie Oral History Project you for talking to me. C.W. ( Thank you C.N. Thank you. • { (12) I'd like to thank � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Charlotte Nielsen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Carrie Wallace Location The location of the interview. 19 High Street Apartments Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Wallace, Carrie Description An account of the resource Provided here is Charlotte Nielsen's interview. She discusses such topics as: Farming Ridgeway Bridgeburg Schools Buffalo Technology World War I North end Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 16, 1985 1980s 1985 Bridgeburg Buffalo Fort Erie north end Oral history ridgeway schools technology transcripts world war I http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/505af6f128328d15dd9654f525740cc4.pdf 9817b777232f82991a88b399356f6d3b PDF Text Text Beverly Branton interviewing Mr. Percy Teal at his home at 1219 Ridge Road, Ridgeway, Ontario. The date if June 10, 1985. B.B.: Hello, Mr. Teal. P.T.: Hello. B.B.: Could you give me your date of birth please? P.T.: October the 9th, 1904. B.B.: And your place of birth? P.T.: Bertie Township. B.B.: And your occupation? P.T.: Carpenter. B.B.: Now you said your place of birth was Bertie Township. Where abouts in the "fownship? P.T.: Well, it would be onwhat they call the Teal Road now. B.B.: Was that named after your family? P.T.: Well, there was all Teals lived on that road so that's the reason they named it Teal Road, after I moved away. B.B.: Teal is quite a popular name in this area. P.T.: It sure is, there's a lot of Teals. B.B.: Do you come from a direct descendant of P.T.: ..• ? Right, right. B.B.: Could you explain that a bit? P.T.: Well, Zechariah Teal, I think he's the one that arrived here in Bertie Township and all the Teals originated from that tiine on. B.B.: I see. What time of year what year would that have been? .• P.T.: Oh, it must have been early 19, 18, 18 hundred anyway. B.B.: Do you know where he came from? P.T.: Well, they say they came from Pennsylvania but before that I don't know where they came from. But some says Holland, some Germany and some English so. B.B.: Do you know why they came to this area why he came to this area? •• P.T.: Well I imagine when, in Pennsylvania they kind of, I don't know, whether it was because of religion or what but they were persecuted there and they c�me over here to a new country I suppose. B.B.: So you are direct descendant of that Teal family? P.T.: Right;right. B.B.: How long did you live on Teal Road for? P.T.: Well I lived on Teal Roaduntil I was twenty-one and then I went on my own. B.B.: Did you live on a family farm? �P.T.: Farm, right, a hundred acre farm. B.B.: What type of farming did you do? P.T.: Oh, just the regular, mixed farming and .. mostly mixed. B.B.: Has it changed much out in that area? P.T.: Well it's sold to the quarry's now, Ridgemount Quarries, that whole block through there, about, I think about. five hundred acres. B.B.: That use to be farm land? P.T.: Ya. They still farm it,but the Q..tarry owns it,you see. B.B.: Is the Quarry using the property? P.T.: Well, they I imagine they lease it out to different farmers. You know they put in crops there but a lot of its bush too. B.B.: Do you remember when Ridgemount Quarry started or how it came about? P.T.: I can't tell you the exact date of that. It's been there quite awhile. B.B.: What do you remember as a child out in that area.. how, what was it like? P.T.: Well it was all farmland. B.B.: What were the roads like? P.T.: Mud roads. That Bertie Road was all mud and the Teal Road was all mud too. We use to get stuck in the spring. You know the frost would come out of the ground you'd sink right in. Lots of fun then. B.B.: How would you travel what mode of transportation? •• P.T.: Well, at first we use to drive a horse and wagon or buggy. And then in 19 16 we had a car and then in the summer time, that was about the only time you could drive because they didn't plough the roads then. B.B.: Where would you go shopping? P.T.: Mostly Ridgeway. We didn't go far. Just all local stores in Ridgeway. B.B.: Has that changed much? P.T.: I guess it has. B.B.: Tell us how? P.T.: Well it's all a big shopping plaza now, two this year. And one storekeeper will close up and then other people open up and There's pretty good shopping •. there now. It's coming back. B.B.: What type of shopping did they have, in the earlier days? P.T.: Oh, you could go in like a store and buy pretty near most anything, dry goods. A lot of the stores had groceries in bulk. Stevensville they had a big dry good store one time and a grocery store on the other side. B.B.: Do you remember the name of that store? P.T.: Oh, ••• I'm bad at names. B.B.: Do you remember any of the merchants from Ridgeway ? 2 �P.T.: Well there use to be Harry Benner, he ran a grocery store for quite awhile. B.B.: Where was his store located? P.T.: Just by the railroad tracks, south of the railroad tracks on the south side or east side of the road. And then Hansen Bream and he use to have a grocery store there too. Then a Dominion store they were there I guess when they first started. B.B.: What about in Stevensville, what stores do you remember there? P.T.: That was that one where the dry goods and the grocery store together and there was grist mills and saw mills and cider mill. B.B.: Where were they all located? P.T.: Cider mill and the grist mill and that on West Main Street. We'd take a wagon full of apples there and get three or four barrels of cider bring it home and make apple sauce took the whole day. Boil down about forty gallons of cider to about half and then you'd put the apples in and stir it with a.. Did you ever see them make cider? B.B.: No, I haven't. P.T.: Well they .. down at the Heritage Day down to that Boulevard there they use to make it there. But I guess last year was the last year. ( And he was there going around and around. B.B.: The same gentleman that use to have the cider mill? P.T.: No, no different one. Johnny, Johnny Ruegg he would make the cider and he use to have a store in Ridgeway too, a meat and grocery store. B.B.: Did you use to go to the grist mill? P.T.: Ya witha bob sleigh, loaded with oats and corn. Take it over and grind it up !_o feed the cattle, milk cattle. B.B.: Was farming one of the major occupations around here? P.T.: Around here, ya, right. I guess at first at Windmill Point they use to have a mill they ground out there before they had like ah horse •. and buggy, like the Indians and all that, a big windmill. That's all disappeared, the stone there is. all gone. B.B.: Where was that located? P.T.: On Windmill Point Road, right on the lake. There's kind of a point there. Have you ever seen a picture of it. B.B.: No I haven't. P.T.: You should go up to the Museum up here in Ridgeway and ask them I think they have pictures of it. Lot of old, real old, back, history 3 �and up here to the Battle of Battle museum up here, just up off •. the Number 3 Highway, there's a lot of old stuff and that. B.B.: You lived on Teal Road until you were about 21. Where did you move to from there? P.T.: Well, I got married a couple of years after that and then lived in Crystal Beach, took care of apartments for my wife and I for a couple of years. Then we liv �d down on the Dominion Road for a couple of years. Then I built this house in '19, we moved here in 1940, April of 1940. When we moved in here we had the kitchen, dining room and bedroom. This was all just studs around here. Hard times Hten. B.B.: This was farmland also? P.T.: Ya, it was. B.B.: What type of farming did you do here? P.T.: Well, corn, oats and wheat mostly. B.B.: Did you have the same neighbours .. as many neighbours. No, John Lichtenberger use to live here next door and my brother lives at 1943. My dad moved off the farm over and he built this house next door here and my brother lives there now. ( B.B.: Has this road is this road more populated now than it was? P.T.: More populated? Oh, ya, ya. There's houses up this way, there .• was hardly any. I guess one, the one house here, what they called the 'hospital' when that Fenian Raid. You've heard of that? They moved that up there in that park off of the Number 3 Highway and made it into a museum. B.B.: Snake Road as this road is sometimes known for P.T.: An old Indian trail that went right out to Fort Erie. B.B.: Tell me about that what, 'cause this road has history in itself. P.T.: Ya, there was a big battle, right up in here during the Fenain Raid. B.B.: And then the Indian trail, was this noted as being the home of a •• number of Indians or ••• P.T.: . .• ? Well, I don't know so much of that. Could have been, up on the hill there they found a lot of, they started gravelling and they found a lot of Indian relics and stuff up in there. There was a burying ground, there could have been you know an old Indian •• B.B.: Where did this trail supposedly come from? P.T.: Well, it goes as far as the Bowen Road. You know where the Bowen Road is? Ya, well that's the beginning of it. Whether it come out 4 �from before that I don't know, 'cause there's a house right out at the end of this road, goes all along the ridge and it's just on the edge of the hill there. B.B.: Now you also lived in Crystal Beach? P.T.: Ya, for a couple of years. B.B.: What was that like? That would have been in the late twenties approximately? P.T.: 1934 and 35, around in that time. We lived right up in the sand hill there, we had an apartment there. Right by the Giant Coaster they use to call it. Boy, the Cyclone days! B.B.: Tell me about the Beach, the amusement park .. some of the rides you remember, if you lived right next door. P.T.: Well there use to be the bumpity-bumps now that's gone and the roller skating rink use to be way up on the big sand hill. And then the old boats use to bring the people to Crystal Beach before they had cars. B.B.: Was Crystal Beach Amusement Park a very popular place at that time? P.T.: Oh, down in, after like in the thirties, in the late thirties, forties and fifties it was real popular but now it's kind of there's been •. so many around, people you know don't go there. It use to about the only one around here. Have you ever been to Crystal Beach? B.B.: Oh yes. P.T.: Beautiful sand beach out there. B.B.: How else has that changed, has Crystal Beach changed? P.T.: Well you use to go and just walk in but now you have to pay to get in. That's a big change. Ya, I guess there was a lot of rowdies and you know everybody would go in there. Now you know it's more selective. B.B.: Were you ever to Erie Beach? P.T.: Ya, ya. B.B.: What do you remember about that? P.T.: Well they Wad a beautiful dance hall there. We use to go up on the balcony, the balcony all the way around. You'd look down on the dancers. They had a swimming pool right next to it. And all around there there was,midway was all different rides. Beautiful place. " 5 �B.B.: Do you remember some of the rides, some of the names? P.T.: Oh, no I couldn't tell you. I suppose it was the same that they've got now in Crystal Beach but I don't remember the names of them. But they had a fun house there. I know that was really something. You use to, I think, lean just remember when you'd walk downhill � you could hardly walk, it'd kind of ho d you back. I don'tknow what it was it was just an optical illusion I guess. I was only there three or four times and then it closed. I guess Crystal Beach bought them out so there wasn't so much competition. I can't remember when they closed it. They use to have a boat running from Buffalo to it, they had a dock out there. And there use to be a little trolley running from the ferry boat in Fort Erie, running up to Erie Beach. B.B.: How would you get there from this area? P.T.: Well, go down Dominion Road and then you had to cross there at Cresent Road. That Dominion Road didn't go all the way to Fort Erie. B.B.: Where did it stop? P.T.: It stopped at Cresent Park there, Cresent Road. You had to go across the track and then a winding road back in there. I don't know { where the road ran in from the other way too but that's the way we use to come. B.B.: If you wanted to go into the Town of Fort Erie at that time and you went up the Dominion how would you go over? P.T.: Well you couldn't,come up the Dominion. There was no Dominion Road, that was the end of it at this end. I don't know what it was like at the other end. But it wouldn't go all the way through there. B.B.: Ho.v would you go to Fort Erie? P.T.: Well we'd go down Number 3 Highway. B.B.: What was the Number 3 like? P.T.: Well, in the '30's, early 30's, 20 and 30's it was just a dusty stone road. Cars use to go down there and there'd be just a cloud of dust. People from Buffalo and around five o'clock in the evening, boy. Some of them young guys with lots of money and they'd go out in ··� their sports car and they'd go up there about 60 miles per hour and there was just a cloud of dust. They use to come up the Bertie Road too and that was just a mud road but in the summertimes there'd { be dust, just a cloud of dust all the way up. They wouldn't put any 6 �salt or anything to lower the dust in. B.B.: When did they pave it? P.T.: Must have been around 1920's I think some time. But I use to team, drive my dads team, he use to have a team..draw stone, I'd draw stone with the team from Law's Quarries over by Dominion Road. To fill in along side of the Regional Road to make it wider. That's wh�" t-hey must have been in the early 20's. B.B.: A nd you did this for your father? P.T.: Ya. B.B.: Was this a business of your fathers? P.T.: No it's just to make a little extra money. Eleven children you know and you had to do something besides farming to feed everybody. B.B.: What was Law's Quarry like? P.T.: Well one thing it was deep and they had to keep pumping all the time to keep water from coming in. And now it's right full level with the lake ..pumping all the time. And so he abandoned that and went to Port Colborne. He had a quarry up here just on the Ridge Road just on the other side of Number 3 Highway. they built the, widen the Garrison Road here. That's when They use to call it Garrison Road now it's Number 3. B.B.: Who owned that quarry? P.T.: L aw , Harry Law. B.B.: Did the quarries all employ many men in those days? P.T.: Oh there was quite a few, quite a few. They then they had men down in the quarry. They didn't have all the n1a.C!. the crusher and machinery that they have now to load up the stone on the.. take it up to the crusher. They use to have the quarry there by the school and they use to have a bucket and a big dairy cup and they use to swing it around and put it up on the crusher and weighed ..loaded it all by hand. B.B.: Your occupation was a carpenter? P.T.: Right. B.B.: Who did you work for? P.T.: Oscar Teal & Son. Worked for him from 1940.. when the war was over, 1945 to '75, somewhere around that. B.B.: Where did you use to work out of? l>.T.: Well, Port Colborne Hospital first and they built a clinic up there and we built a, in Dunnville we built a big addition on an Old Folks Home. And we built quite of few houses around and mos t ly construction 7 �of the Nickle there was a big change house there and that was about •• a million dollar job, that was a big job. B.B.: What about in.the Greater Fort Erie area? P.T.: Worked on Hart & Cooley when they put a big addition on there. We built where the Custom Pharmaceutical, we done that. B.B.: Do you remember the dates on these? P.T.: Oh, no I couldn't tell you, dates. B.B.: Where else did you build? P.T.: Well a few houses along the lake. I couldn't name them all because so .• many of them I forget them. B.B.: Any other major jobs? P.T.: Leon's store in Fort Erie. We built that. It's still a furniture store. B.B.: Is that on Jarvis Street? P.T.: On Jarvis Street. In Welland we built a furniture store, I forget who that was for. And we remodelled Leon's in Welland. I should have wrote all this down for you. B.B.: What would you do for entertainment? P.T.: You mean when we were kids. Well during the war we had twelve acres of beans. And for entertainment after supper we would clear ( the table off and sort of the mud and clean them. Then we use to make tops out of the spools that thread came on and we use to race tops on the table, sit around on the table. That was before radio came. B.B.: Do you remember when the telephone came in? P.T.: We had the telephone in our house as long as I can remember, must have been here before I was born. We use to have the old party lines, just call up and ask for the person you want. They had parties on there that could listen in to your conversation. Here all the gossip. B.B.: So as you got older what would you do for entertainment, where were place in the area? P.T.: Well they had a show in Fort Erie, we use to go there and Crystal Beach before we were married. And we had radio. We use to listen to radio the by that time.. And then until you got television and then you got lots of entertainment. B.B.: What else is there anything as you look back that maybe isn't here •• anymore that you can come up with? P.T.: No . when they built the Crystal Beach Dance Hall ther � we used ••• 8 �to draw the gravel from up the other side of Point Abina for concrete. B.B.: You helped build the Crystal Beach Ballroom? P.T.: Ya. With a team we shovelled the gravel for it. We had about ten or twelve teams� We'd load the gravel in-the wagon, shovel it on by hand. B.B.: Was that you and your father was the business your fathers? P.T.: My dad didn't do too much. My brother and I had a couple of teams •. with other people around the area. And one of the sand hills, big sand hills we worked one summer there, all summer there, with a team scraper taking all that out. I had a picture when they were building the dance hall and I can't find it. A big one about that long. It showed all the team. There was about a dozen teams there with scrapers •. B.B.: Were you ever at the dance hall when it opened? P.T.: Oh ya, ya. B.B.: What did that look like? P.T.: Oh it was a beautiful dance hall. Did you ever see that big ball, glass ball? The light would shine on it and why ..there use to be a lot of dancers there. All the big bands would come over from Buffalo. B.B.: Can you remember some of the names of the bands? P.T.: I think Jimmy Dorsey was there was he a band leader? Dorsey .• I know was his last name, he use to be there. I can't remember the others. Tommy Dorsey Tommy Dorsey's Band •. ••• you don't remember that. You're not quite as old as I am. B.B.: So what else can you remember? P.T.: I can remember when they had no traffic cops. B.B.: Is that right. P.T.: Ya, Joe Tripp he was the first traffic cop, witln ::: a motorcycle around here, around this area. B.B.: Would that have been it wouldn't have been the Regional Police •• at that time what would it have been then? •• P.T.: No, just a local, like a, it would be I imagine the Township or ! •• don't know what they would have called them then. And after him there was Vern Detenbeck. They were both motorcycle cops. B.B.: Where did they have a station? P.T.: Oh, no. Not until the Provincial Police had their statio� in Ridgeway. •• 9 �No. I don't know when they come in. Must have been when they got cars on the road. B.B.: Do you remember when the first cars came into the area? P.T.: First one I can remember is when I was going to sc;hool. That was maybe when I was about twelve or thirteen years old. But oh high wheelers with hard rubber tires and .they'd crank them up on the side. I remember going up from school, there was a team of horses corning up and this car was going the other way putt, put, puti.the •• team of horses went right in the ditch they were so scared of it. So that must have been ! was born 1904and I was 12, 10 years old . • so it must have been around 19 13 I guess. We had our first car in 19 16, my dad bought a car. B.B.: Who P.T.: Ed Spears in Stevensville, Ed Spears. B.B.: Where was that lot? P.T.: In Stevensville, right next to Black Creek there. did he buy it off of? Was there a dealership? Where was that car lot? He was the first Chev. car dealer around here. Ya, I remember my brother wanting to clean the distributor and he took all the wires out of the distributor cap and then when he put them back in he got them mixed up. ( And there was a bang and blow up and oh... B.B.: Where did you attend school? P.T.: Number 10 School on what they call the Garrison Road. When I was six years old I started and I guess I quit when I was fourteen, to help farm. B.B.: What was the schoolhouse like? P.T.: In the winter time you froze to death and a big long stove with gas. They got free gas then. But you had to put wood in, big chunks of wood you know to heat the school. We use to, real cold mornings we had a bench on each side of the stove and we'd sit there for a couple of hours until we got warmed up. No lights in the school. B.B.: What were your desks like? P.T.: The first desk, two pupils would sit in it, side by side. When I went to school I sat with Joe Athoe. the Bertie and the ridge. than I was. The Athoes use to live here on -� He was maybe seven or eight years older He was, a lot of those big guys they went 'til they were about eighteen years old. I don't know how long they had those desks and then they got the single ones. B.B.: How would you get to school? 10 �P.T.: We walked a good two miles each way. Walk. I always remember my sister was two years young than I was .. my mother use to curl her hair with the you know ringlets and when she got to school in the winter time they'd be all frozen stiff. She'd use water on them B.B.: and they were wet snow drifts up to our knees no ploughs then. ' Do you remember any of your teachers names? P.T.: Yes, one was Harry Bowen. B.B.: What was he like? P.T.: He was a good teacher. •• •• He was ared head. He was a good teacher as long as you didn't cross him or anything. I remember once somebody was doing something there and he had a ruler and he smashed it down across the desk and the ruler just went all to pieces. Right at the corner there use to be a, Norm House had an orchard and he use to have all kinds of apples in there and I guess somebody was going in there getting apples and Norm House must have told the teacher. And the teacher forbid any of us to go in the orchard and get apples. So a whole gang of us went in and he found out about it and he lined us up all the way across the school .. bamm with the strap. B.B.: How many would be in your class? P.T.: Oh, it wouldn't be over 25 or 3 0 in the whole school so maybe four or five B.B.: Do you remember some of your fellow classmates? P.T.: Ya, Walter Reinhardt and, well I can remember Walter 'cause him�.: and I use to chum around together. B.B.: Can you think of any stories? P.T.: Yes they use to, at the quarry, they use to drill with a steam drill and when they'd blast the stones they'd fly up and down on the metal roof and banging on your roof putting holes in it. B.B.: Of the school house? P.T.: Yep. Ya and there was a big thorn apple trees right next to the school there and we use to get them and throw them around and eat them in school. B.B.: Do you remember the fire in Ridgeway? There was a couple of main fires in the downtown of Rdigeway. P.T.: Ya, that was in, that was around must have been in the fifties wasn't it? B.B.: There was two of them. Do you recall either one? 11 �P.T.: I know the last one. Must have been in the fifties, I was, we were working in Fort Erie and we came home and they said there was a fire in Ridgeway. B.B.: Was there a fire station 1n Ridgeway at the time? P.T.: No, it wasn't in Ridgeway then no. I can recall some guy told me, I don't know whether I should tell this story .•• it might get back to somebody. B.B.: Do you remember the opening of the Peace Bridge? P.T.: Ya, I was down there at the opening. B.B.: Tell me what you recall of it. P.T.: Well it was the Prince of Wales who opened it. I can't recall too much but!· he give a speech, I don't know if I was close enough to ·hear it.or not. I can't remember too much. B.B.: What was the feeling of people when it opened up? P.T.: Well to those who had summer homes over here it was a big relief. because down at the ferry they use to Hine up for miles. When you know I guess on a Sunday people going home fr.am Crystal Beach, they'd line up for miles the cars. to wait to get across. They had the two big ferries:tkere at one time maybe hold a hundred cars. ( Ya it was a big relief for the traffic, it was terrible then. B.B.: Do you you would remember when Ridgeway and Stevensville •• amalgamated with Fort Erie, where now it is considered Greater Fort Erie. P.T.: I can remember things way back better than recent. B.B.: So you don't remember any feelings you had about that, about Ridgeway nOW\'.being considered as part of Greater Fort Erie? P.T.: No. It must have been about the time that the Region took over too. The Region started about that same time. But the date I don't remember. B.B.: Do you remember anything about the Shipyards?along the Niagara Boulevard? P.T.: I was down there when they launched the five hundred foot freighter. '!:hey slipped it down into the water. when the inee was going down the And that was in the spring it pushed the ice right up on •• • the shore. B.B.: Do you know approximately when this would have been? P.T.: Well I imagine it must have been around 19M or something like that. I can just remember riding down there with horse and wagon, , 12 �my brother and I. I had one brother older than I and he's still alive. B.B.: Has the Parkway changed, the Niagara Boulevard changed? P.T.: I guess it has! B.B.: Tell me how? P.T.: Well I don't think they cut the grass and had it as nice as it is now. It's just I suppose, just all grass and weeds all the way down there. Of course I didn't take much notice then 'cause you wouldn't the way they keep the lawns and things now. It makes a big difference. B.B.: What was the roadway like? P.T.: Oh, well I couldn't tell you about nothing like that because we came down this back way and I don't think we was even on the Boulevard like •. B.B.: What would the back way be? Which roads would you take? P.T.: Well I went down the Ridge Road and the Bowen and then I forget the name of the road. It's just on the otherside of the Queen Elizabeth on the Bowen Road. I forget the name of it. B.B.: What was the Bowen Road like? P.T.: Mud.. stone, I guess it was stone then too probably 'cause it was the main road to Fort Erie. I know we use to buy wood, my dad use to buy wood up Netherby and we'd, in the winter time, we'd take it and sell it in Fort Erie. We'd drive up to Netherby in the morning and we'd take it down to Fort Erie and when we got home at night it was suppertime. B.B.: Who would you sell the wood to in Fort Erie? P.T.: Oh, different ones that would burn wood you know. B.B.: You took it right to their home? P.T.: Right, ya. I remember we use to the Bowen Road didn't have the •• subway, it use to go out and cross about six or eight tracks and there was a lot of trains then. And I remember we were going down once and there was a team of horses on a milk wagon and the horses run away and they were running up here. Millers horses they run, they come home here to the farm. They got away from them delivering milk, and they got away from them, they were just a running like, just a galloping all the way home. B.B.: So where would the Bowen Road join up then? Would it joing up at Phipp Street or the other Bowen Road? P.T.: That other Bowen Road, that there was joined right straight throughl1 there. B.B.: So old Bowen Road, we say, would have been joined out with the Bowen 13 �Road that's in town? P.T.: Right, ya. It use to go right across the tracks at an angle. B.B.: Would that cut across what is now Rio Vista Golf Course? P.T.: Ya, that road is just on the other side of that. Is that Rio Vista •• maybe that roads all closed down now I suppose. That was really a dangerous place there because in them days the trains were going all the time, not like now. B.B.: No stearµ engines. Did yo u have a certain route you use to take, every time you brought the wood into Fort Erie? P.T.: Mostly we went down the Bowen Road. B.B.: But once you go into Fort Erie? P.T.: Oh, delivered anywheres, you know, anywheres they needed wood. B.B.: Do you remember changes that happened in Fort Erie? P.T.: If so many people could come back now and see all the different changes around here they wouldn't know it. B.B.: As you look back try to describewaht it looked like. P.T.: Well I can't hardly remember. But I don't thi:D.k we went down in the main part, mostly out in the, like Amigari and the Fort Erie and Bridgeburg. I remember my dad use to do a lot of pedalling in went to a peach orchard once, got a load of peaches and took •• them down to Fort Erie and pedalled them around. We stayed, I think we stayed down there all night in a hotel, one of the hotels down there. B.B.: Do you remember where the horel was located? P.T.: Seems to me it was on the Boulevard there, on the end of Jarvis Street, I wouldn't be sure. I think it was a Hoffman that use to own it. B.B.: Did you ever eat in any of the restaurants at that time •• • • What about the south end business, you know where the Chinese Restaurants are now? P.T.: Well there was all stores then, a lot of stores. been one restaurant but I can't remember it. to eat in the restaurants like they do now. B.B.: There might have No we didn't go out Couldn't afford it. If you happened, when you were younger, if you happened to get ·�. sick, who was your doctor or? •• P.T.: Dr. Buehl. B�B.: Where was he located? P.T.: Stevensville. All, everyone of us children were born over there on Teal Road in the family home. He was a rough doctor but he 14 �was a good doctor. He'd swear like a ••• B.B.: Was he from Fort Erie originally or ? P.T.: As long as I can remember he lived in Stevensville. Then he died •• and then Dr. Stackhouse was our doctor. I can remember when we went to the Welland Fair in October and we had an old touring car and I was sitting on the side and it was cold and the wind was blowing in and I got pleurisy. And everytime I'd laugh I just felt somebody was jabbing a knife in me. And when I came home that night we called Dr. Stackhouse and he come down and taped me up and I was in bed for a couple of days. Boy that was awful! B.B.: Well can you think of anything else, any changes? P.T.: Well, this Stevensville Road, Gorham Road, they call it now. That ended on the Bertie Road from Stevensville. And cars use to come all the way up around here . B.B.: Up through the Snake Road? P.T.: Then they put that through, it must have been in from Bertie Road •• to oh where's that.., Nigh Road. That was no road there it was just farm. And they put that through, it must have been in 1940 something. I can remember the cars from Crystal Beach would come from Niagara Falls and at night they'd go home they come around here and go around this curve down here and they'd when they'd slow up for •• th<i--S' :::urve here they'd backfire and boy until 1 o'clock you couldn't get to sleep. Then there was one thing I could tell you there was •. a, must have been about seven o'clock in the summer time. A car came up here, stopped up here and the guy driving got out. The engine was racing like anything. The guy dringing got out and the passenger on the passenger side, guy told him to pull the lever back to open the hood. Instead of that he pulled it in gear and nobooy behind the wheel and the motor racing wide open. It come around in a little circle there and came right, bang into that fireplace. Two women in the back seat there pretty near went over in the front seat and the guy broke the windshield. Had a front entrance there, hit part of that and it just shoved in sideways. house about two inches back off the foundation. Moved the Knocked everything off the mantle. B.B.: Not as safe as horse and buggies, eh? P.T.: I guess not. B.B.: Well is there anything else Mr. Teal that you can think about? P.T.: I guess that's about all. I suppose after I could think about a lot 15 �of things I forgot to tell you. ( B.B.: Okay, well thank you very much. I've appreciated it. P.T.: Oh, your welcome. ( 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Beverly Branton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Percy Teal Location The location of the interview. Mr. Teal's home at 1219 Ridge Road, Ridgeway Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Teal, Percy Description An account of the resource Provided here is Percy Teal's interview. He discusses such topics as: Farming Stores Stevensville Crystal Beach Erie Beach Crystal Beach Amusement Park South end Recreation Transportation Schools Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection 1980s 1985 Crystal Beach Crystal Beach amusement park Erie Beach Fort Erie Oral history recreation restaurants and bars ridgeway schools south end stevensville transcripts transportation http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/f8a9177bbddb4531a3cd889ec83867da.pdf 66bcf04c2626864976e6ae7c16265d4b PDF Text Text This is Rose Hearn interviewing Mr. Ken Stouffer 224 Stanton Street, Fort Erie, Ontario, and the date is September 24, 1985. R.H: Good morning Mr. Stouffer. K.S: Good morning Mrs. Hearn. R.H: Could please tell me when you were born? K.S: July 3rd, 1919. R.H: And where were you born? K.S: Alsask, Saskatchewan. That's not a true statement exactly because Alsask, Saskatchewan is where my brother is registered but I was actually born across the border in Alberta in our home there, our "farmhouse. Strangely enough when my older brother and I applied for our old age pension, it was registered in Alsask, Saskatchewan ' but on a Province of Aiberta birth certificate. Of course they questioned it, they said, "Well, make up your mind, where were you born? " So, when I applied for mine, what it was and I I just wrote a little note explaining never had any problems with it. R.H: So, you went to school there and everything? K.S: No, we moved to Northern Ontario, near Dryden and that was when I was five years old. Of course there was not many schools there, and part of my education was correspondence courses the government ran up in that area. The school guard came through on the railroad every so often, and they gave you your assignments that you had to do at home and you had school work occasionally to get .•• R.H: There weren't too many people living up there, right? K.S: No, in fact where I was, there was very few. I was actually north of Dryden, about five miles on the C. N .R. near Ainsdale actually, which is no more. There was about 90 to a 100 people living there when I lived there,, now there is about 15. R.H: When did you finally come to Fort Erie? K.S: Just before the war, I wasn't here very long. I came down and I worked ••• R.H: You are talking about when you were an adult of course? K.S: Yeah, well, I was 18 actually, when I came down to Fort Erie. I was handy with making things and that and I decided I was going to be a carpenter. I went to work, I forget the contractor's name now but I worked on unit no. 3 that they built at Fleet, at the start of the war. They built that unit onto Fleet. Then I went down (1) �to Niagara Falls, I worked on the Cyanamid in Port Robinson. R.H: The what? K.S: The Cyanamid Building, it was a chemical plant for making explosives. They were building all new buildings there and of course I worked on construction there for a while. I joined the air-force the following spring and went in as an air engineer mechanic and trained at St. Thomas, I was there for six months. I thought how unfortunate I was, I was shipped directly overseas. From there, overseas, I remustered to flight engineer. I flew Lancasters for a while, I was four years overseas. R.H: The make of the plane you flew, was it called the Lancaster? K.S: Yeah. R.H: Were they made at Fleet? K.S: Some of the wings and the tail sections were made at Fleet, yeah. R.H: When you came back, what did K.S: When I came back I .•. ? went to work for W.P. Troupe who was a building contractor. R.H: He seems to be quite well known? K.S: Yeah, he was quite a large building contractor. I worked for him 'til... oh, 1945 'til 1952. Then an architect who had a summer cottage { over here, we used to do a lot of work for Americans along the beach, and I got to know him pretty well and he used to draw plans for some of these houses that he built along the beach. R.H: What beach would that be? K.S: Well, it would be all along, right up to Port Colborne. We built a house up on Lorrain, up on the sandhills there, this side of Port Colborne. We built them along Bertie Bay Road, right along, right down to Erie Beach. Part of the work was remodelling and building the houses. So, anyway this architect talked me into going over to Buffalo to work. I tried for my visa and that took me about three months to get it at that time. R.H: Were you working as a carpenter for him? K.S: Yeah. R.H: Could you tell me the name of the architect? K.S: Oh, Gordie Hayes, he's dead now. He was a real nice guy and of course when ( I did finally go to Buffalo, he gave me two names to contact. He recommended these two names for me to go to work (2) �for. So, I went to see one of them and I didn't really like the work I would be doing, it would be only one thing. It was a big outfit and I would be like, nailing on casings, that would be all that I would ( be doing, so, I didn't like that too much. I went up to see the other ..• Gus Arvidson was his name, he was a small contractor, building residential houses. R.H: Was he over here in Fort Erie? K.S: No, he was in Buffalo but I went to work for him. I could have worked for either one, they would have hired me and things were booming. You could get a job just about any place. I worked for... Well, Gus Arvidson, he retired after about five years after I came over, he was quite old and Hugh Perry took over. I worked for him for 29 years 'til I retired. You couldn't get a better boss, he was great. I was foreman, I guess for the last 15, 20 years, I had a great job. R.H: When did you get involved with the Fire Department? K.S: In about 1952 I think it was, that Ijoined the Fire Department. I enjoyed it and I guess the second or third year I was in, I got elected to Fire Officer. R.H: ( What did you get elected to? K.S: A Fire Officer, I got elected to a Fire Officer. I was a Fire Officer continuously up until the time I... I was Chief for 12 years, the last 12 years that I was involved as a Fire Officer. I was Chief 'til 197 ... I guess it was '7 5. I really enjoyed it, I wouldn't have missed it for anything. R.H: Did you need special qualifications to get in the Fire Department? K.S: Not to get in, no, but if you were smart and valued your own safety, it was to your advantage to learn all you could. R.H: Was there a training period in the Fire Department? K.S: Not really, but of course you didn't do too much when you first went to the first few fires. You didn't put on a hot air mask and go into the building or ••• all you did was help with the nozzle and help with the hose ... There was always people who knew what they were doing that would tell you what to do, and you need people to help. R.H: K.S: ( So, it was more-or-less on the job training? Yes, and of course there was practice every month, at that time (3) �it was once a month. Then, of course I was only in there t w o years and I got involv e d in the Niaga r a D is t r ict F ir e T r a in ing Prog r a m ( wh ich w a s v e r y g o o d t h e n a n d i t ' s s t ill going o n . I was on t h e e d u c a t ion c o m m it t e e f ive years after I got on the F ir e Depart m e n t and o f c o u r s e , I a t t e n d e d fire school e v e r y y e a r , even the first year. R.H: Where was f ire school ? K.S: Well, fire school... the first o n e I attended w as in M e r r it t o w n, they used t o m ov e it arou nd. They were in Po r t C olborne, M e r r it t o w n, anywhere in the Niagara D is t r ict th ey'd t ake c h a r g e and h old fire sch ool e ve r y spr ing for one w e ek e n d , just teach ing the basics o f t h e F ir e Depa r t m e n t . I got o n t h e educat ion c o m m it t e e about five years after I j o ined and from t h en on I s t a r t e d ins t r u c t ing. rh ey w o u l d go t o c lasses e ither in Niagara F alls, m o s tly in Niaga r a F alls, all w inter. Y ou' d t ake these c o u r s e s w ith the o t h e r f e l l o w s and t r a in t h e m and as a rule s o m e o f the paid d e pa r t m ent m e m be r s f r o m Niag a r a F alls w o u l d b e t h e re. t h e ins t r u c t e rs, m o r e-or-le ss. It was ins t r u c t e r s t o teach D u r ing that 20 years that I was involved o n the e d u c a t ion c o m m it t e e, I got to kno w th e m and I w as teaching j u s t about every s u bje c t on f i r e f igh t ing. ( I was c h a i r m a n fo r three years, of t h e education c o m m it t e e and I l e a rne d an a w f u l lot about f i r e figh t ing and o f course th is is bound t o h e l p you in y o u r own d e p a r t m e nt. Ruch w a s c h ie f w h e n I was in and h e w as a v e r y g o o d ch ief, I think he was in t h e r e n ine y e a r s . Whe n h e d e c i d e d t h a t h e ' d h a d enough of it . . . It w a s k ind of a t o u g h j o b I gue s s , H e n de rson t o o k o v e r for, I th ink he w as t h e r edor five y e a r s and then h e l e f t . H is j o b took h i m t o Bu r l ington, h i m and h is b r o t h e r star t e d a b u s i n e s s up there. S o , I w as ele c t e d c h ie f and I was involve d w ith the Niaga r a D is t r ic t for 2 0 years, I guess. R.H: Whe n you say you were - i n t h e F ire D epa r t m e nt, w h ich c o mpany did you belong t o ? K.S: Well , at that t i m e there were t w o F or t E r ie F ire Compa n ies. w h e n I first got involve d. We got along well and... R.H: Wh ich one were you w it h ? K.S: F ire C o m pany No.I and of course Alf Wh ite was chief fo r qu ite a w h ile when I was c h ief... R.H: ( He was c h ie f fo F ire C o mpany No. 2 ? K.S: No. 2 , yeah. We got along w ell, the two depa r t m ents. There was a little r ivalry natu r a lly, but w e w o r k e d together on fire prevent ion (4) �and a number of things and still do as a matter of fact. But of course then Regional Government came along and there was a lot of distruptions as far as the Police Department and the Fire Department but they left the Fire Department thank goodness, more-or-less the way they were. R.H: When did Regional Government come in? K.S: I'm not sure, around 1970 or '71 or R.H: It didn't interfere with the Fire Department then? K.S: No, it didn't change the operation of the Fire Department too much. ••. The Fort Erie Police Department used to handle all our fire calls 'til Regional Government took over. It worked very good, we got along great with the Police Department. Of course back in the old days, there were no radios. When I first got in the Fire Department there were no radios on the trucks or... R.H: How did you get the calls? K.S: The police used to get the calls and I'd blow the sirens and they'd tell us where the fire was and that's the only contact we had. Of course the police cruiser would come around as a rule, be there, and tell us... they had radios then. Of course now we are. radio equipped. When Regional Government took over, the police were ( regionalized and they didn't want to handle fire calls any more, so we got the alarm centre set up. It actually works better than it did through the Police Department. With all the radio contact you have, it's great. R.H: Was Chris Wren responsible for setting this up? K.S: Yeah, the alarm centre. I forget what the name of it was but it's the one that's there now, Bomar Alarms. Of course that wasn't the name of it then. Chris Wren was the guy that started it up. He was a pretty smart guy. R.H: How does that work in connection with the Fire Department? K.S: Well, there's a fire number in Fort Erie, greater Fort Erie, which includes Crystal Beach, Stevensville, and others and of course it's 871-1200. If you dial that number, you get through to Bomar. They've got charts down there of all the different areas, and who ever calls in, has to give their name and phone number. They can look it up on the chart, tell what street it's near, where the hydrants are that are close to it, and they can blow the siren in each hall. That isn't (5) �the main thing now, everybody has these monitors, little radio receivers. They carry them on their belt and they just push a button and alerts what ever station the fire is in and they tell them where the fire ( is. Of course, they can blow the siren too but they don't do it at night anymore. R.H: As you went to the fire, did they keep in touch with you? K.S: Oh yeah, you can call them. There was radios in all the trucks and you could call them. Of course the first person the driver answers and gets the call, starts out, calls the alarm and says, " We're on the way" and maybe confirm the location. R.H: Do they relay the information about where the fire hydrants are or K.S: .•• ? Yeah, when the driver first calls in to say they are on the way, they'll tell them where the cross street is or the location of the nearest fire hydrant, stuff like that. R.H: Did you have to take any life saving training? K.S: Yes, first aid. We were fortunate that over the... Years ago, we got to know this Dick Stoll who was a first aid instructor, in charge of first aid for the American Red Cross and he was a great guy. He used to train all the Fire Departments in Erie County and further afield than that. He'd go to any fireball, he'd give instructions on any phase of first aid and actually, I don't know when it was, he came over and gave us the first training in mouth to mouth resuscitation. We got it first of any department in the Niagara area. There may have been others in Toronto or somewhere that got it sooner or the same time we did, but I know we got it first in the Niagara area. He was a good friend and when this came out, he came over and gave us the training on it. We had water rescue training, we had a demonstration right here, out here on the river years ago which he put on, which was not too common in those days. When I was chief, he brought over a big steamer trunk full of first aid stuff, gave it to us, made a presentation. R.H: So, you had to have this training after you got in? K.S: Well, you had to know the basics of first aid, we didn't have to know too much. Of course after this mouth to mouth resuscitation was introduced, we all learned it. I don't know whether it's a good thing or not, no doubt it saves lives but it does have it's pros and cons. (6) �If you save a life and they are going to be a vegetable the rest of their life .•. you know, this is something I've always been afraid that this might happen. It's good training and of course C.P .R. now, ( Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation or .• . I got into that a little bit but that's something that's a little newer and of course the Fire Department is really involved in it. They teach it at the fireball every winter, classes go on and they teach this C.P. R. R.H: Did you ever hear anyone talking about a fire on the ship, the M.T. Green? K.S: No, I never heard anything about that, if I did, it didn't stay with m_e. R.H: What about equipment, did you have good equipment? K.S: Not that great. No. 1 Fire Company had an old Bickle, now I don't know what year it was but I think it was a 1927 Bickle. R.H: Was this the fire truck? K.S: That's a fire truck. Now, you can still see this Bickle because the Racetrack has it. If you watch the parades, Jack Kellar who was and old time member, he urives it .· as � . a rule. . .::. . . � He drives it in the � :. . � .- .. '• parades and of course they fixed it all up, chromed all the parts that show and fixed it up and it's worth a mint. We gave it to the ( Jockey Club, sold it to them for a dollar actually, because we didn't have room for it. We got the new truck, we had to put the new truck in of course and we just didn't have the room to put this old Bickle in, so we just gave it up. I think there's a stipulation that if they ever get rid of it, we have the first bid, crack at it. We had that truck and we had the 1951 Lafrance and they were both... neither one of them were class A pumpers. The old Bickle was an old gear type pump that's just outdated, they never use that kind anymore, but the Lafrance was a centrifugal pump, the same as they have now but it didn't have much capacity, it was only a five speed pump. It would pump, I guess it was a five pound gallon per minute but not at much pressure. I think it was in 196 1 or '62, Doug McClary who passed away a few years ago, we lost him when he was quite young. He was chief driver and he started saying, "This is ridiculous, we need a new pumper" . Freddy Henderson was the chief at that time and he went down to Council and told them. You didn't get money too easily out of Council in them days for (7) �anything, but anyway they okayed it. I was chairman of this committee for to get a new pumper so we drew up specifications, put it out for bids and Thibault submitted the low bid, so we got a Thibault ( pumper. I think it was a 195 1 '52 or '5 1, I'm pretty sure it was and that was a good pumper. It was a class A pumper and it really did the job. We also specified that it should carry 600 gallons of water which at that time was quite a bit. Nobody had ever carried 600 gallons, they always had 400 or 500, 500 was about the highest. We said we wanted it and we got it anyway. That truck is still in service and it does a reasonably good job because it has most of the connections and parts that they have today. Of course the trucks today, not only do they cost five or six times as much, but they have a few more things on them, more modern. R.H: What would be the water capacity on these new trucks? K.S: Well, the aerial. .. we got a new aerial, the T own bought an aerial truck and that's placed iit our hall. It's an 840 gallon per minute pump which pumps a lot of water. Now we have, No. 2 Company, all the companies in Fort Erie have got modernized equipment over the years, it's in very good shape really for equipment now. The Rotary Club has been very good over the years, they supplied us ( with a rescue rig way back in... well, shortly after I got in. Of course that sort of went out of date, it was a small, I think it was a Chev van or something, but you couldn't stand up in it. Then they bought us the one that was ••. like the big bread trucks, something like that. You could walk in it and there's quite a bit of equipment on it and they supplied that. It was around 1960 that they replaced the original. They bought a new one two years ago, really a good one. It has dual wheels and it has all the equipment on it and there was a couple of service clubs involved,. supplying this thing. The service clubs have been very good to us in helping out. R.H: If you really wanted something, you had to submit your request to Council, right? KoS: Yeah. Well, you know as well as I do, how things go. Years ago when there was just the two Fire Departments, No. 1 and No. 2, before Regional Government took over, our cost for fire equipment was ridiculously low in Fort Erie. One year, I noticed that the cost per capita, of course this includes women and children and everybody, (8) �was a dollar fifty one per person which was terribly cheap. Of course they didn't have any major expenditures in that year for equipment ( and we didn't have a lot of big fires that can run your cost up too. So, that was an unbelievably low cost. I don't know what it is today, but that was just one example of one year that we had such a low cost for operating the Fire Department. When Regional took over, of course everybody... The Fire Department in Bertie Township were getting more money than we were 'cause they had a paid chief and a paid deputy. Those guys, they were always having to spend more money than the volunteers just to make their •. • well, how would you put it? They wanted to justify their existence, that's what I felt anyway. So, they would say, " We need this and we'll do this" and the volunteers of course felt, well, these guys are getting paid, maybe we should get a little more for our services and they did get more. Of course when Regional Government took over, naturally they were going to take a cut in pay, we were put up to their level. We got twice as much or more than what we had been getting. When you start getting into a whole lot better alarm system, because they had to reach all these outlaying areas with their radio ( signals, the cost went up, which is natural. It didn't go up near as much as it would have, if we'd been regionalized, like the Police Department but that's another story. R.H: So you do get some kind of payment? K.S: Well, our company... now different companies do it different but we have a point system. You get so many points for attending a· fire, you get so many points for attending a practice, so many points for attending a parade,. of course for the parade you don't get many points. The practices and the fires give you the most. There's points for different things and you get a grant from the Town for fire pay and I don't know what it is now. It used to be, way back in the olden days, it used to be a couple of thousand dollars but it's a lot more now. This all divided up, the total number of points is divided into this grant. Whatever each point is worth, you get that for the number of points you have accumulated over the year, so this is always the way we have done it. It has worked very good and so far as getting paid, you don't get paid, you get some renumeration ( for what you do. R.H: What about uniforms, do you have to go to the Council for them too? (9) �KeS: Yes, there was another big deal which was a big expense when Regional took over. We suddenly ended up with six departments instead of ( two in Fort Erie. Of course when we had two, No. 1 Company and No. 2 Company had uniforms that were basically the same, but they weren't exactly the same. I think we had a red stripe on our trousers and they had a black stripe, or something like that. Their badges were different but basically they were the same, the blue serge. Of course East Bertie, they had a tunic sort of affair that was a sort of a marching parade uniform. It looked real nice but it didn't look like a fireman's uniform to me. Ridgeway had another one altogether and Stevensville had Beach was different. a different one too, Crystal So, we all got together and we had a c·ommittee formed and we used to have meetings and we decided to buy newuniforms. The ones that had just been approved, were the Canadian Fire Service Men ... The Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, they set up a committee then to come up with a uniform that could be standard across Canada. You wouldn't believe the different uniforms that every department had across the country. I used to go to these fire chief's conventions all over Canada and I'd see them and it was really funny. But anyway, we decided to get the uniforms, so now we've all got the same uniforms, ( the standard uniform which... not every department has got, in Canada or Ontario, the same ones, you'll still see some that are different. Niagara Falls still doesn't have the standard uniform but it's so close, you can't tell the difference. I think their hats are a little different and standard badges but I I guess their badges are, they aren't the think they are using the standard badges now. Of course this committee that the fire chiefs set up years ago, came out with it, so, it's really good that way. Of course, these uniforms cost us a mint, we had to buy all of them at once. R.H: So, who paid for them? K.S: The Town paid for them. Regional Government realized they had to come up with some money if they wanted this thing to work. I still don't know whether we were better off with Regional Government than we were when we were on our own. I think that ••• like, I was involved with the police in a lot of things. They used to co-operate, they used to handle our alarms and everything. I found that you ( knew everybody on a first name basis, everybody didn't but I did. ( 10) �I knew everybody in the Police Department, the sergeants and the chief, like Trevor Mathews, I knew him real well. I thought it was a lot better because they knew so many intimate details of the people and the operation of everything. I thought it was better than this Regional Government. They are so aloof and you call the police and you get the operator in some cabinet and he don't know what the hell is going on. Unless you know what you want, tell him, "I want the Fort Erie dispatcher" but half the time they're all ..• The cost, of course, for police protection has gone sky high. There are some things I guess that probably are better, that's supposed to be progress I guess, but they are paying for it. I look at my tax bill and I see just about as much for Regional Government as I do for our own government, you know, local government, and what does it mean? R.H: Was the station house always there on Bertie Street? K.S: No, that was built in 1948. Before that, you know where the old Town Hall is, the Legion building? There was a garage apparently on the west side of the Town Hall that would house the fire equipmenL It was a small garage and it housed the fire apparatus and back in the old days when the horses pulled the apparatus, there was ( two guys that had teams of horses, now I don't remember their names; but I think one of them was Ted Hawkins but I'm not sure, When the old alarm would go, whoever got there first, their horses used to pull the fire apparatus and they used to get a dollar and a half, something, for digging out the apparatus. That's how it used to operate and in 1948 they moved into the one that's up on Bertie Street. R.H: That was a brand new building I assume? K.S: Oh yeah, they built it. It was quite adequate at the time but of course when I was chief, we built an addition on. R.H: I was just going to ask, did you add to that building? K.S: Yeah, we put another bay and we built the rooms upstairs. We've got a meeting room, a lounge, and a sort of games room, upstairs over that new part there. Of course, me being in the construction business, I took it upon myself to draw the plans and oversee the work. We did all the work ourselves, like, I would call four or five ( guys each night and then come up and meet there. Of course, we didn't do the brick work, Guy Vfolino, that was the· mason contractor, ( 1 1) �a building contractor, he did the mason work, the brick work and stuff like that. But as far as finishing a lot of the bull work, we finished that ourselves. I think it cost the Town just under $20,000 and if we'd have had it done by contractors ( ••• we did get a price on it, I think it was $46,000 it was going to cost us. R.H: So, you saved them quite a bit of money, right? K.S: Yeah, we saved them quite a bit. R.H: Did they appreciate it? K.S: Well, yes, I think they did and Jack Teal was mayor then. He put it in the press and that and... R.H: I _know that it is all volunteer and you all had full-time jobs as well, so did they have to carry a beeper with them? K.S: Oh yeah. It's a lot better now than it was, because we didn't have those beepers. They would hear the siren or someone would call them maybe, their wives or whatever, just call them at work. If they worked too far away to hear the siren, then, they would call them at work, providing their employer would agree to let them go. A lot of employers won't let them off, a lot of them do, like, Fleet lets them off. Most of them are pretty good that way. Where our company was always fortunate, we've always had a number ( of men that worked on the Customs, on the Bridge and they are shift work of course. A lot of them are around in the daytime and of course, there are other jobs too, that are shift work. Take for instance, Red Thompson, he was his own boss and he lived right there on Bertie and he would answer the alarm. he was generally the first one there to find out where the fire was. Now, if he happened to be real busy and couldn't go and if they had enough guys, he would go back over to his store, but he was always there. I would say we always had more than three guys on Customs who were off, which made a big difference. R.H: How many men did you actually need to go out on a fire call? K.S: Well, the minimum ••• you could take the pumper out with three men if you had to. It has happened many times but they respond and .•• R.H: Does it depend on the fire? K.S: No, not really because you don't know how the fire is 'til you go on the call. If there are three guys there, they will go with the (12) �pumper and of course as the guys come in, there is always other people showing up. They might have to ·come a little farther and ( they'll come to the fire directly with their car or bring the other apparatus . They'll take the pumper first and they'll bring the rescue unit and before they get there, if they need the aerial, they ' ll get people to bring that. R.H: So, you can go with three people? K.S: Yeah, I've gone often with three and as matter of fact, when I firs t got into the department, we went to a parade over in Buffalo and when we came back, we weren't home too... well, two of us came back together and the siren went, we went over, there was only two of us. Of course, they were all still at the parade and hadn't got back yet. So, the police said, "It's Pierce and Stevens". Well, the last place you want to go for a fire. We waited, well, it seemed like an hour but it was probably only two minutes to see if anyone else was coming. This other fellow was the driver and I wasn't even an officer, I was just a rookie in the Fire Department. I knew how to use the nozzle so we said, "Well, we are going" and we told the police. When they call, the police of course, they naturally would notify No. 2 Company when it's a bad deal, a school, that's the rule ( of the call, .both companies. The two of us, we got over there, turned the pump on and I got off the booster line and I broke the windows. I could see the fire inside the window so I pushed the nozzle in and I was spraying in there and I was never so scared in my life because if there had been an explosion it would have came right down on top of me. We had quite a lot of damage there, No. 2 came eventually and of course our fellows started coming back. We had enough to operate, but it was a bad fire. R.H: Where was Pierce and Stevens? K.S: Same place as it is today. R.H: I don't know where it is. K.S: Oh, you don't know where it is? A big outfit like that. Well, let's see, you know where the Racetrack is? Well, when you come out of the main gate of the Racetrack, it's right on your left as you come out. There's a number of buildings there and that big block building is Pierce and Stevens. ( R.H: Was there a lot of damage down there? (13) �K.S: Well, not really to the main building, it was just where the fire did the most damage. There was quite a bit in there. I shouldn't ( say there was a lot of damage because it didn't affect the place where they make the paint, just the warehouse. R.H: Do you know when this happened? K.S: It would be about '63 or '64, somewhere in there. Of course they've had other fires in there since that. They had one in the office area about '70, around 1970. It did quite a bit of damage to the office area, it didn't gut it or anything, just a lot of smoke, fire damage, and water damage. R.H: Was there any other buildings, such as historical buildings that were burned down? K.S: Well, Knox Church of course. Do you remember when that burned down? R.H: Knox Church? Is that on... ? K.S: Knox Presbyterian Church. That would be No. 2 Company's area. It wasn't our fire but of course we went down and helped them. That was quite a historical place. It burned right to the ground. Niagara Hardware and Lumber is another big fire we had too ... ( that was real bad and of course that was set and the wind was just blowing... R.H: Where was the Niagara Hardware and Lumber Company? K.S: Where the ••• at the foot of Bertie Street. That Marina place there, that was Niagara Hardware and Lumber. Of course as you come down Bertie Street there was a lot more buildings on the left that went down along that road by the river there. They were just storage buildings and real firetraps. Of course somebody threw-.a match in there, the east wind was blowing real strong and we had no chance of saving it. We had four fire companies there then. The only thing that we could save was the office area and the main hardware. Well, that part that's standing there now was all we could save. But there was water and smoke damage in that even. This terrific wind blew everything up through the building. I guess we were lucky to save any of it. R.H: [Mr. Stouffer has some notes with him] Have you got anything in your notes you'd like to men Hon? K.S: Well, I've just got some dates down here that might interest you. ( 14 ) �We've got a banner in our hall that says .•. you can teU:it's a real old banner, it's got the old chiefs trumpet on it. It says, organized 1857, now this is before the Fort Erie Department started. It says, ( organized 1857, Fort Erie Fire Department, Fort Erie, Ontario. As I say, this must have been Amigari or something because I also found a clipping put in there about 1964. It states that the Fire Department of Fort Erie is presently organized, which would be after Bridgeburg and Fort Erie amalgamated, I assume. It came into being on January 1, 1932, so, that sounds about right to me. One thing that we've never mentioned is the fact that our Fire Company always entered this fire prevention contest that was organized and run by the National Fire Protection Association. This is .an American outfit, this association. We've... Harold Ruch started it when.he was chief, entering it. We've received... I think we've ran third place on two occasions in the Province of Ontario in this contest. Every year... we got an honourable mention back in 195 1 which has to have been about the first entry, maybe not the first but it was near the first, when Harold Ruch was chief. I noticed in one of the clippings that was in the book in that Times thing, , [I think Mr. Stouffer means the Times Review] that William O. ( Sullivan who was the representative from the Fire Marshall's Office in Ontario, came down to present this certificate to the Fire Departments at a Council meeting. He stated that, "In the 15 years he'd been with the Fire Marshall's Office, he had been down here 15 times to present some sort of certificate. Either a certificate of,merit or an honourable mention, or a second or third place finish, something like this". I know that we were right up there, tops in the Prcwince of Ontario contest. Now, what this contest is about ••• R.H: Could you tell me where they held this contest? K.S: Well, this contest, I'll just expain to you what it was. It was organized by this Fire Protection Association. They had forms that you filled in and they expected you to do certain things in your municipality, to better your fire protection. Some of the things were, you inspected all the factories, businesses, looked for fire hazards, pointed it out to ••• gave them a written slip that stated what the hazards were. There were different things that would help them as far ( as fire protection goes. Like, some of them needed extinguishers ( 15) �in different areas, the types of extinguishers they needed. We'd tell them anything that would improve their ability to handle fires. This contest was about anything connected with fire safety. What ( ever you done, you put down in this form and of course depending on how extensive you covered all the subjects, that would determine what rating you got in the contest. Of course the contest, although it was judged in the States, it was a... They had different categories like, I think we won in the class B category which would be a population of 10,000 to 15,000. You competed with people in your own Province. So, you would be placed in this contest, in your population category in the Province of Ontario. They also had it Canada wide. We did win an honourable mention on three or four occasions, Canada wide. We've still got all the old books that we sent in. They tell you if you want them back, to check here and we always got them back. We've still got a number of the books that we submitted in this contest. This just wasn't No. 1 Company, this was the two companies that cooperated on this and submitted this entry. So, it was a joint No. 1 and No. 2 Company venture. Another note that I've got here, the worst fire we ever had in Fort Erie, was ( in 1962, the Walpole fire. R.H: Walpole? K.S: That was a family that lost, they lost six children and the father. This fire killed seven people and of course, that's something that I'll never forget because I was one of the very first ones there. There was a lot of dolls, the kids had a lot of dolls and you didn't know whether you were picking up a doll or child when you went upstairs. It was just terrible and that sort of made me aware of how dangerous fire is. When they first came out with these smoke detectors, I don't know when this was but I bought the first one that I heard of, in Buffalo. It cost me $49 and it wasn't really that great, I think after a year it was no good. Well, they guaranteed them and I think it went before the guarantee was up. I took it back and they gave me another one, a different brand and that one lasted me a year. That was a lot of money in those days and back then, $49 was a lot more than it is now. But, I bought one and I've had a smoke detector in my house since. I've got three of them in there right now. ( 16) �. R H: So, you firmly believe in smoke detectors? K.S: Oh, certainly, anybody that doesn't have a smoke detector in their home, there's got to be something wrong. I don't care who it is, ( I'm as conscious of what fire can do as anybody but I know if a fire started and I'm sleeping, the toxic gases could kill me before it'd wake me up. I'm aware, I smell something like that, I'd be awake like that but I still think it could do it to me. Anybody that doesn't have a smoke detector, there's got to be something wrong with him. R.H: Is it the toxic gases then that overcomes people? K.S: Yeah, that's what it is. You see, in this modern environment that we live in, there are so many things that are made of plastic and acrylics. Even the paints on the walls have got things in them now that creates these gases. You only have to take a couple of lungs, full and you're done. This is different than it was 40 years ago because things that burnt then .•. well, you got a lot of smoke but they weren't going to kill you. Oh, it would kill you eventually, but you could take quite a bit of it and survive. But there's so many things today that combustion starts with this thing, and you get these toxic gases coming off them. You don't need to take too ( many lungs full and you're done. That's why I think smoke detectors are so important. R.H: Did they bring some kind of law that every home should... ? K.S: They have it in Fort Erie now. They just brought it out but it's not very effective. R.H: Is there a law saying how many you have to have? K.S: Well, you should have one for each floor but even one in the house near your area where you sleep will at least save you. You might get a lot more damage if you don't have one down in the basement or the first floor, if you're sleeping on the second floor. You'd get more damage if you don't have one down there, but at least the one up by your sleeping area could save your life. R.H: Are these smoke alarms better now than they used to be? K.S: I don't think there's too much difference. There's two types, there's the ionization type and there's a photo-electric type. I don't have a photo-electric type, I should have, I guess. But they recommend ( now that you should have one of each because they operate on different principals. One, the ionization type picks up any product in combustion. ( 17) �You don't have to see it, it can be in the air, just fumes or whatever can set it off. The photo-electric type, it's got to be something you can see, to s et it off. In other words, particles of smoke have ( to enter the detector. So, one will operate better in certain circumstances than the other and vice versa, you know. The only thing about the photo-electric detector, it is quite a bit more expensive and there's not too many of them around. Everytime you see one advertised, it's always the ionization type. R.H: What else have you got in your notes for me? K.S: Well, we've had a great social relationship with Seneca Hose which is in West Seneca, for the past 30 years. It's no big deal, I mean. I guess a lot of Fire Companies have these different relationships with other companies but this goes back 30 years. We go over there . for their installation of. .. well, not all of us but I've been going to their Commissioner's Inspections and their installations since I became chief. I don't go to their Fire Commissioner's Inspections anymore but I do get an invitation to their installation of officers because I'm an honoury life member. There's about six or seven of us in our company that are honoury life members. We presented ( them with a large Canadian flag years ago. When I was chief, I don't know what year it was, their fireball burned down, maybe two years ago, I guess. They just rebuilt it, a beautiful building. They got really a super fireball there now. They have rooms upstairs and all the facilities you could want for training and everything else. We are going to present them with a Canadian flag 'cause everything burned. We have international night every year. The one year, we go over there. The next year, they come over to our hall but this year we go over there, sometime in October, I think it is. So, this is just something that has really been a plus for ••• it's a bond through the Fire Departments. It's something your wives take part in too 'cause it's a social thing. Another thing, I think I did mention before, was that we were always very active in the Niagara District Firefighter Association, education wise. It might be interesting to note that we've supported Muscular Dystrophy for a number of years. We have walk-a-thons and we have a Muscular Dystrophy Ball. In 1970, we had a walk-a-thon for Muscular Dystrophy ( in a blinding snowstorm. By the time we finished, we walked 20 ( 18) �miles, I was on that one too but I didn't walk in later years. We walked 20 miles and by the time we were finished there was six ( inches of snow on the ground. R.H: Was it in the spring? K.S: No, it was in the fall, November, I think it was. On that walk we raised $3,914 for Muscular Dystrophy. In 1972... of course, we got the Muscular Dystrophy Ball and the walk-a-thon but there was some other thing that they raised money on. I can't think what it is now but in 1972 ••• Ken Raynor was the chairman that year, we raised $6,000 for Muscular Dystrophy and that was the highest per capita for a community in Canada. So, we were really proud of that. In 1972, they also had the Canadian Open here at Cherry Hill. This wasn't just our department but the six Fire Departments supplied all the drivers for that� I think Ceneral Motors supplied the cars, the courtesy cars to take the people around and the Fire Departments supplied all the drivers. I drove myself bu.t I didn't get any big name golfer in my car but I enjoyed it, it was good. R.H: K.S: ( So, the Fire Department does a lot of good for the community then? Well, we do a lot of things for the community, yeah. Of course our jamborees supply the funds for a lot of things. R.H: Is this the jamborees you have over at Oakes Park? K.S: Yeah, it's been going on every year since... it hasn't been called a jamboree since I've been in the company but I think it's about the 29th or the 30th jamboree that we've had this year. Before that, it was a band tatoo that we had at Oakes Park. Ever since I got in the company, it has been called one or the other. But the funds raised from that ••• like, we've started scholarships for high school students. Oh, I don't know when but it was during my time as chief they started it. So, it would be back in the '60s, the late '60s, somewhere around there. We give $500 to the high school for different scholarships. I think there is three or two ••• what is it? I just forget how it's divided but anyway that's been going on for years. We purchased a boat and a motor for in the river for rescue work out of these funds. They support minor hockey and minor baseball with some of these funds. Of course, although we don't like to mention this too much, but some of this money goes to Muscular Dystrophy indirectly. Like, we pay for food for ( 19) �this walk-a-than, that comes out of these funds too, then all the profit goes to Muscular Dystrophy. R.H: So, you take in quite a bit of money from these jamborees then? K.S: ( Oh yeah, they do fairly well with the jamborees. They are a lot better in the last ten years than they used to be. Years ago, if you made a $1,000 or $ 1, 500 back then, you were really doing pretty good. But now of course, it's up in the thousands, what you make. R.H: Is there an age limit for joining the Fire Department? K.S: Well, you got to be... it used to be 2 1 when I joined it. You h ad to be 2 1 before you could join it, now I think it's 18. 65 is the Town bylaw for retirement which is a good thing. Anybody that is 65 or older shouldn't be chasing fires, it's too strenuous. R.H: Do they still chase fires when they are in their 60s? K.S: Generally most of them get on the trucks now. The odd one goes by car but there is still a lot of people who chase fire trucks that shouldn't be chasing fire trucks. R.H: Are they really active during the fire or are they mostly directing operations? K.S: R.H: Well, for instance the fire chief, he's got to be in his 60s, right? K.S: Why? R.H: Can you get a young fire chief? K.S: Why not? R.H: Don't you have to work up to something like that? K.S: ( Who, the ones that are.. . ? If you can do the job. All in all, there's not many of them in their 60s. Not in the volunteer department, in the paid department, yeah. Ruch, he quit when he was 40, I guess, 42 or something like that. At the time I was chief, I was 56 when I got out of it. Of course, Frank Bremner was in his 40s, he was chief for five years after I was there. Then Tim Morin, he was in his 40s, I don't know how long he was . •• two years, he was chief. The present chief, Torn Reid, I'd say he's in his 40s too. R.H: So, they don't really stay in the volunteer Fire Department 'til they're in their 60s? K.S: Well, they stay but maybe not as the chief. They won't be the chief but they will still be a volunteer fireman. ( R.H: So, you are more-or-less telling me that if your are chief, you have to be at every fire? (�o) �K.S: Well, anyone who is chief, wants to be. They're going to be there if they can possibly get there. That doesn't only apply to the chief, ( h applies to any volunteer fireman. I would say, if there is an alarm, they're going to go. Of course, if they can't leave work or somebody can't go R.H: • • • but they are all going to answer that alarm. So, when these guys retire as fire chief, do they stay in the Fire Department? K.S: Well, he did for a few years. [Mr. Stouffer means Harold Ruch] For example, if you're in the Fire Department for 15 years as an active member in our company, you can apply to go exempt which means, that you have the privileges of attending their social functions, attending meetings and you get these privileges. The only thing you don't have to do is attend these practices. Of course, there is an election every two years of the fire officers and they elect the president and vice president, secretary, treasurer and so on down the line. They elect the chief, the deputy chief, the captains, and chief driver. Th is is every two years, they do that. R.H: K.S: ( You were a member of the board for Douglas Hospital, right? Well, I got interested in the hospital first of all through a member of the Fire Department who was •.. Bill Carpenter, he was a member of the Fire Department and his wife was a secretary and the administrat or. Of course they used to .•• me and Bill Thompson got to know him, not only through being the fire chief but... He was very good on fire regulations and rules of the hospital and during the time I was chief, we just sort of took over the drills and the inspections for fire prevention in the hospital, which we didn't do before that. They more-or-less done it on their own. We'd give them demonstrations on how to use fire extinguishers, and fire hoses in the boxes and all that stuff. So, he said, this is Bill Thompson, the administrator, he said to me •• • I used to go to the annual meeting· of the association, which you probably know is a Hospital Association who elects members for the board. So, after one of these meetings I think we went to the Queens Hotel or something and had a couple of drinks and he said, " Why don't you run for the hospital board. You'll do a good job and we need people on there like you ". So, I did run and I got elected. That's how it started and I guess I was interested. It's ( a funny thing about the hospital board, you can be on there for a (2f ) �couple of years a n d unless y o u ' ve had the background, h o s p it al care and s o o n , you really don't know nothing about it . nothing about how a hospital operates . ( You know absolutely So, it took a couple o f years t o sort of get into the s w ing o f the th ing and the feel of the th ing . Then of course . . . w e l l , after shar ing for a nu m b e r of years, I got onto the manage m e n t c o m m ittee and from there, I was elected v ice chair man. I was vice chairman for three years dur ing the last fund and bu ild ing d r ive that w e had there at the E m e rgency and Outpatient s . R.H: S o , that was what the dr ive w as f o r , the E m e rgency and Outpatients C l inic ? K.S: Y e ah , and o f c o u r s e t h e d r ive w e n t r igh t o v e r t h e t o p . a m a z ing t o me that people r e s po n d e d so g e n e r ously . I t was r e ally I t h ink we g o t a pre tty n i c e l ittle h o s p it al u p t h e r e . R .H: H o w long w e r e you t h e r e ? K.S: A bout 1 6 y e a r s , I' m not s u r e . R.H: A n d you' r e s t il l on it ? K.S: Y e ah , I' m s t ill on it but I think p r o bably . . . I j u s t g o t e l e c t e d t h i s past m e e t ing o f t h e as sociation for anot h e r t w o year t e r m . p r obably when I get that t h r o u gh , I'll g iv e it u p . ( I th ink W e d o go t o F l o r ida now f o r a couple o f months and if I ' m g o ing t o b e on anything, I l ike to do the j o b . I don' t want to be s i t t ing back and let s o m e b o d y e l s e do s o m e t h ing that I s h o u l d be doing. R .H: D i d you say you got v o t e d in ? K.S: Y eah , t h e r e ' s a n o m ination c o m m it t e e wh ich cons ists o f b o a r d m e m be r s , a t least three boar d m e m bers a n d they present t h e list of no m in e e s b e f o r e the b o a r d and t h e y . . . what they gene rally d o , like this p a s t year , John Glenny, h e ' s got s o m e j o b w ith the Travellers A s s o c iation, he's t ie d u p pretty well s o he wanted t o get off the boa r d . H e wanted t o get off the board t h is year s o the no m inat ing c o m m it t e e presented two names when there was one vacancy . Th is is what they generally do, they present an e x t r a name m o re-or-less so that you' ve got an elect ion anyway. S o , P aul F ell was elected to the Douglas M e mor ial Hospital Board this year. So, th is is how it goes but they generally rec o m mend all the people that are on the Douglas M e m o r ial H o s p ital Board for re-ele c t i o n . They always have s ince I've been t h e r e . I g u e s s if they got s o meone who was j u s t d r i ft ing along o r d i s r u p t ing ( (22) �the board in anyway, they probably w o u l d n ' t reco m m e n d them for re-ele c t io n . R.H: ( S o , thank-you very m u ch for the int e r v i e w Mr. S t ou ffe r , I really apprec iate it , it was a lot of h e l p . K.S: I ' m g l a d t o d o it . much b u t !f A n y info r mation I've given you , I' m s u r e it isn' t i t helps, th a t ' s fine. ( ( (23 ) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ken Stouffer Location The location of the interview. Mr. Stouffer's home at 224 Stanton St, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Stouffer, Ken Description An account of the resource Provided here is Ken Stouffer's interview. He discusses such topics as: Fire Department Churches Douglas Memorial Hospital Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 24, 1981 1980s 1985 churches Douglas Memorial hospital Fort Erie Oral history transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/a5ac6017c3be9ec8bd76b99a446dd755.pdf 8a46f3f603541da9ccb341c17abb1f67 PDF Text Text Beverly Branton interviewing Mr. John Stickles in his home at 37 56 Dominion Road in Ridgeway, Ontario. The date is June 17, 198 5. B.B.: Hello Mr. Stickles. J.S.: How are you today? B.B.: Fine thank you. Could you give me your date of birth� J.S.: March 3, 1890. B.B.: And your place of birth? J.S.: · Stevensville. B.B.: And your occupation before you were retired? J.S.: Painter, housepainter , decorator. B.B.: How long was your family living in this area before you were born? J.S.: Oh my . . my mother was a Baker, she was born in Stevensville too. B.B.: So your family ... ? J.S.: They've always lived right around here, in the Township of Bertie. B.B.: What was your mothers' maiden name? J.S.: Baker . B.B.: So you've seen Stevensville go through a few changes? J.S.: No I never . . I moved out of Stevensville .. ! don't ever re member being there at all. B.B.: How old were you when you left Stevensville? J.S.: Oh, I don't know .. I just don't remember at all. I was just maybe about six months old or something. B.B.: Where did you move to from Stevensville? Did you move into the Ridgeway area? J.S.: Into the Ridgeway area, ya. And I've been around here ��my life . B.B.: Could you tell me some of the different places you lived in Ridgewa.y .. the different areas .. do you remember? J.S.: Well, let's see .I tell you I lived down along the river one time. B.B.: Did you. J.S.: Where the shipyard, where the shipyard was built there, before .• the Boulevard was there or anything. B.B.: Tell me about that. J.S.: Well they were just starting to build the Shipyard down there and we moved down along the river between Frenchman's Creek and the Shipyard. .along in there. It was all mud roads, road was awfuill narrow, could hardly walk along it. The water would wash up you know .. the Boulevard wasn't there or anything. B.B.: Did your property go right down to the river? J.S.: Well there was just a road in front and a little lawn and the house l �in the back. B.B.: ( Were you living there when the Parks Commission wanted to ? J.S.: The Park Commissioner when they talked about, when they bought •. the Boulevard, they bought our property through . . •. moved our house. What use to be the back of the house and when the Parks bought it, theymoved the house back and the pump was way out ' here in the front yard..they moved the foot of the basement under the house and everything and picked it up from where it was when ' they bought it. And they gave my dad so much a foot for the frontage. But when they built that Boulevard that was built for a trolley line and a bridle saddle was to be built between the Boulevard and that.. that's the reason it's so wide you see. They bought all that property in back and that was surveyed out from Niagara Falls, Port Colborne down through Crystal Beach and Ridgeway, there'd be a trolley line around. B.B.: Is that right! What ever happened to those plans? J.5.: Well things changed before they got it built and everything. They didn't..automobiles begin to come and they ..there was no use for a trolley line. But that's the reason they bought so much property, you know all that land..all that nice .. but it's nice, it's beautiful..it's a good thing they did. B.B.: But that's the reason they bought so much land. So did the Niagara Parks..did they buy that other land by Port Colborne also? J.S.: I don't think..it wasn't bought, that's where they took a surveyal out through Crystal Beach but they bought, like they took the river front, from Lake Ontario to the Old Fort. B.B.: Do you remember when the Shipyards was starting to be built? When they started bringing ships in? J.S.: Well I think they started, they really started to build the Shipyard before they started to build ship..it took them a year or two to get it ready. I lived up between the Shipyard and Fort Erie on this side of Frenchman's Creek. Do you know where Frenchmen's Creek is? Well do you know where Pleasant's Point use to be do you .•• know where the old morgue use to be? Do you know where that old home is, that Catholic..or something, they've got it setting up there in the field. In Fort Erie along the Boulevard. B.B.: No I don't know about it. Tell me about it. J.S.: Well there wasn't any homes..there was nobody between our house 2 �and Fort Erie at all, along the river. There was no houses along there at all. I wouldn't have given you 10¢ for the whole thing, it was so damn muddy and the clay...you know! B.B.: So they started to build the Shipyards...? J.S.: Ya but that was before, I think that was before 190 1, anyway that was before the Pan American because I think we went from there to the Pan American in Buffalo�.my dad and my mother and I. They built the E.B. Osler there. Then it was iron works there for awhile and..and then it was shut down and lay dormant and they tore all the building down and mJ1ed them away, it's all gone. B.B.: Do you remember the mill that use to be down that way? The old mill down by the Shipyards? J.S.: Well the house we bought, they tell me one time out in front along the river there, there use to be a mill there and they called it the Decew Mill. But it wasn't there when I was there. But the house we bought..you know where that home is, that old school, that private school? B.B.: Yes, right. J.S.: Well that's where we was..that white house then was Charlie Millers and that next house was where we lived in, it was the second house between that and the Townline Road. B.B.: When did you move from there? Do you remember arproximately what year? J.S.: Oh I got out of there when I was a kid..couldn't take any more. I came up here and I went to work for a man by the name of Wilson down here. He had the bus line between Ridgeway and Crystal Beach, horse • .. ! went to work for him and I've been working ever since. B.B.: He had a bus line of horses? J.S.: Oh ya. B.B.: And where did that run from? J.S.: From Ridgeway to Crystal Beach. The trains use to come in here, there was excursion trains and the station use to be over here instead of down there. That station that's in Fort Erie now, you know that one use to be here in Ridgeway. Set right there on the Main Street. But the old station use to sit right across here. You got off the train and you had to w alk down to the Main Street. 3 �B.B.: It sat right across the Dominion? J.S.: Right here, right across the track over here. Then when they built the new one they built it downtown. B.B.: Do you know approximately when that was built? J.S.: Well it was around eighty some years ago. I can't just tell you the ..but I know what, Mr. Tom use to be the operator over here and he was never in the new operator..Jack Cameron took that over and he was the first operator here that I remember being in there. But he, they had living quarters in the old station over here. The operators lived right in the station. Then when they shut the railroad down they took it down to Fort Erie, they moved it down. B.B.: So the bus service you were talking about now how often would he stop to pick people up. .at every...? J.S.: Well he use to come as far as the Hotels and then to Crystal Beach just in the summertime when the boats was running. The excursion trains use to come in here loaded with. .maybe sometimes the excursion train would 9:00 o'clock, the first half .. and the second half would come in. Use to come from London, Toronto, Hamilton, my god they came. ! Two sections of trains you know. There would be . two or three excursions and all the excursion trains from the American side would come to the foot of Main Street in Buffalo and they'd get on the boat and they'd come to Crystal Beach. And here they'd come by train right in here. They use to have..these guys running all over the country making arrangements for tickets you know, giving them big deals and all that kind of stuff. B.B.: Do you remember what the fair use to be on the buses? J.S.: Well when I first started it was 10¢, round trip. B.B.: Round trip! J.S.: Ya, then it got up to 15 and then it was 20¢ a round trip when I left ....I stopped up here at the Hotel and I got a load of people all that I could get in and I got across the track and there was a gang another gang standing there and they wanted to go to the Beach. And they wanted me to put these people out and take them and I told them to go fishin'. And I started up the street and they caught me up about a block or so up there and held me up and throwed rocks at me. B.B.: Did they catch them ..did the police catch them? J.S.: Oh, they got three of them here ..read the whole thing there ..ya �they only got three out of the gang, got fined $50 a piece. Were they local fellows? J.S. : Oh, no all from Buffalo. I think they were all American fellows. B.B.: So the police at that time were out of Crystal Beach? J.S.: Ya. B.B.: ( B.B.: Would that have been Provincial Police or was there another office in there? J.S.: Well there was, they always had one Frovincial man out there. Then the Company had hired a lot of men I think, you know uniforms around the Park and everything. B.B.: Was there ever a time that you remember that there wasn't police in this area? J.S.: Well up here, around here in Ridgeway we never had any police. Use to hire some guy stand around, an old guard standing around the street in the summertime but we never had Provincial Police here. They most always had one in Crystal Beach though. Anything went wrong we had to go and get them. B.B.: ( Do you remember the Peg Leg Railroad? J.S.: Oh, yes. That was over here by the old station, right across over in here. You'd stop over there with the train, you'd get off and go along the old station and back there was the Peg Leg Station. B.B.: Did many people ride on it? J.S.: Not very many people. That's the reason it didn't last very long. You was up there in the air you know, one wheel in the middle, one track. And then it had, the track was up there and then they had guard rails on the side, little wheels that would balance it you see were along the side with the main wheel in the middle and it would carry it along. The motor was driven in the one car and there was four seats in front of him and two seats that would carry four people there and four people ahead and then they had a trailer car in the back of it carry maybe twenty people or something like that. B.B.: Were there any accidents ever any accidents? J.S.: No I never heard of any accidents but you know whenever they had •. to keep it on a level it went straight out to Crystal Beach and turned •. ( and came out through the, went through the road out there by the cemetery they dug out you know, they put a stone wall up and put a top over it and the Peg Leg use to go on it. If it was going down, 5 �a hill ...well they clipped it pretty level until they got out by Brackbill Orchard and you was right up as high as the trees you know. They had to keep it on a level. B.B.: Do you think people were fearful of it? J.S.: I think that was the trouble. I didn't really pay any attention. It didn't run so long. B.B.: Did you ever ride on it yourself? J.S.: Oh I rode on it ya. B.B.: Wha t was it like to ride on it? J.S.: Oh, it wasn't a bad ride, it was slow and everthing. It wasn't very fast but it went right along. B.B.: And it would take you into Crystal Beach? J.S.: It wou ld take you from the Ridgeway Statism to the Crystal Beach Station on the Erie Road there. Let you off from Derby Road to Erie Road and thenit went all around. B.B.: Did you ever go to the Park, the Amusement Park? J.S.: Did I ever go? Why I worked there for sixteen years, I was with the buses, that's where we use to go, drive in there. ( B.B.: What do you remember of Crystal Beach Amusement Park? What changes did you see it go through? J.S.: Oh, my gosh it's changed awful! Put up these big rides and ... B.B.: It never usedto have the big rides? J.S.: When Crystal Beach first opened there was a cut, cut through the sandhill, maybe thirty feet wide, planks up on a ..and up on top of that hill was a skating rink, a great big sand bank all there. And when it was sold out to the Lake Erie Excursion Co. they took all that sand bank down and put up a concrete wall out there in the lake and they put all that and back of it and theymade i+ acres of land by moving that sandhill out. Now it's all..use to be cottages all up on that hill. Do you remember that hill, that big hill up in there Mary? Down at this end, you go down to the hill is up there . • yet you know with cottages way up on the hill, there's two tiers of cottages ..one way up and then half way down there's ano.'ther tier on the Erie Road side. But on this side wl=iere that big ride is and everything that use to be a great sandhill. You had to walk through this cut to go out on the dock, you know the boat. B.B.: Do you rem�mber Mr. Rebstock? R.'B� Do you remember when he first started up? J.S.: Oh ya. 6 �J.S.: Yes. B.B.: You have a book on Mr. Rebstock? J.S.: ( I knew his children, all of his children. He was, he opened Crystal Beach the year I was born, 95 years ago. That's when Crystal Beach first opened. He was a wonderful man J. Rebstock. B.B.: What do you remember of him? J.S.: He was a goer. B.B.: He had quite the dream to start up Crystal Beach. J.S.: Oh, ya and then he went to Florida you know. He opened up a Crystal Beach down there, in Florida. Oh, I knew his family all real well, the boys. He was just an ordinary farmer around here I guess before he took it in his head to go to this area. B.B.: Do you know what made him to start up the amusement park? J.S.: No, well it tells pretty well in that book, his whole life. He worked back here on this farm where Cherry Hill is, golf course. His son wrote that since his father died, George. He come in one day and he said, 'John I want to give you one of these books.' B.B.: Were you ever in the dance hall at Crystal Beach? J.S.: Oh I was there lots of times. That was a dandy dance hall. B.B.: Tell me about it..can you describe it? J.S.: Well how would you describe it..it was such a big thing. It use to have a balcony up along there and you could go up and sit down and look at the dance and listen to the orchestra. They had seats all around it. You ever been to Crystal Beach..you ever seen that dance hall? B.B.: Inever sawthat one, no. J.S.: Oh, gee that's a beautiful one. They had an orchestra out there this spring already one of the old time orchestras and had an old time dance out there. Oh who was that big band out there, they use to have Guy Lombardo and Paul White..all them fellows out there. They would come and play for a week ... • And the boats that ran from Buffalo to Crystal Beach, they had an orchestra on the boat. You could get on that boat and you could dance all the way to Crystal Beach and get off the boat and go in the Park. It didn't ( cost anything to dance on the boat. Those boats use to carry 3500 people. In the second deck on the back end they had that orchestra 7 �there and that deck over there was all for dancing. But on the outside of the boat there was all seats, people sat all around and then you could get up and dance. And then you could downstairs and you could go to the bar and get a drink if you wanted ..it'd make you dance. B.B.: Were you ever to Erie Beach Amusement Park? J.S.: Yes, I'd been down there lots of times. B.B.: What was that one like? J.S.: Well it was something like Crystal Beach. They had nice rides there. Use to go down there, they use to have Eddie Cantor down there singing "We've Got No Bananas Today" and all that kind of stuff..that was quite a place Erie Beach was. . real nice! B.B.: Can you remember some of the names of the rides? J.S.: Well I don't know, they had the Figure-Eight, I don't know what all rides they had in Erie Beach. They had a Cyclone and they had a Figure-Eight they use to call it, ferris wheels and oh, I don't know. I haven't been out to Crystal Beach. . I don't know what they've got out there now. I don't go out there anymore. I haven't been out there in I don't know how many years.. Now they've got it all fenced in you know. You have to pay to go in, you never use to have to pay you walked right in. Only thing you had to pay was to park your car. B.B.: Did you have to pay to go into Erie Beach? J.S.: No that was free too, you'd park your car and go right in. They use to have a concert down there every Sunday night you know, singing. They had these people like Eddie Cantor and some more of those big guys, singers would come in. B.B.: Did they have good food stands? J.S.: Oh, ya. B.B.: Were you ever in the restaurant at Erie Beach? J.S.: I don't..not at Erie Beach but I've been down at that Hotel, that fish fry, I've quite often eaten. I never eat at Erie Beach .. Crystal Beach I use to eat around there a lot. B.B.: Do you remember when Erie Beach closed down? J.S.: Yes. B.B.: Why do you think..looking back is there..? J.S.: \Vell I'll tell you, I think that peoplP you know, they use to come in on them boats, they use to run a boat at Erie Beach you know as well as Crystal Beach and they use to run a train from the ferry 8 �dock up to Erie Beach, along the lake there and along the river. Two coaches, I think, and an engine use to carry all of them. ( Well they use to come down to Ferry Street and come across on that ferry boat like by the hundreds and the boat use to land about Main Street over there someplace and they'd run across. And I think the reason the boats, the people. .the automobiles began to come. People would rlde the automobiles. They'd come in and if they wanted to stay all day they stayed and if they got tired they'd go out and get in their car and go away. When they use to come in boats, they got in boats and come off..they had to stay there until the next boat went back. So I think the automobile was the one that put that place in.. it wasn't Crystal Beach. Now you see people drive a car out there and they stay for a hour or two and they've got enough they go a way but when they come by boat they had to stay. But the boat, there use to be a boat in there pretty near every hour. the Americana and the Canadiana. They had two boats They carried 3500 people, each of them . B.B.: ( Do you think the Peace Bridge.. the opening of the Peace Bridge . stopped .. ? J.S.: Well that helped out too. That made traffic a lot better. The ferry boats you know, they use to run three ferry boats there. One would be loading, one would be unloading and one waiting by the river to get into it. Oh, it use to be awful going back Sunday night or a holiday .. you'd hardly be able to get up the Garrison Road, waiting to get on the boat. A lot of them would go down to the Falls and go across the Bridge. B.B.: Did the Garrison Road look the same as it does now? J.S.: Oh, no, no, no! B.B.: How did it look? J.S.: Well just like any other country road. It was stone, but it was rough you know. It wasn't wide like it is now either. B.B.: What about the Dominion Road? J.S.: Well the Dominion Road use to, didn't go only half way to Fort Erie, wasn't opened down through there at all. B.B.: Do you remember where it stopped? J.S.: It stopped at Windmill Point Road. . what do they call it? . . Stonemill Road. That's as far down as it went. 9 �B.B.: ( How would you.. was there anyway of getting across to the Garrison or. . . ? J.S.: Went down the Ridge Road here. We could go down to Windmill Point Road and go out to the Garrison Road. was opened too. thr ough. And the Nigh Road You got to the Nigh Road and you could go But that wasn't opened..only until the Rosehill Road and then you had to go the Number 3 Highway and go down. B.B.: The roads have changed quite a bit? J.S.: Oh.. we use to say you could shake you teeth out riding in a car going down there. ... . ..down the Windmill Point Road. [half-way house] go that way... B.B.: And what is that? J.S.: Why it's a Hotel. That's why they use to You could stop there and water your horses and go in and water yourself if you wanted. B.B.: And that was on. . . ? J.S.: Well that was on the rnain road, the Nigh Road .. Nigh and Bill's Stonemill Road down there, right on the corner. ( B.B.: Do you remember who ran that? J.S.: Ya, man by the name of Jake Weis..he run it one time. Hoffman run it one time. Walt Ted Ha wkins, he run it for two or three years and Charlie Hawkins he run it when it burnt down. B.B.: And what all could you do there.. you watered your horses ..? J.S.: You watered your horses, and well you could take a party down there and they'd have a big time. They had a long shed on the end of it.. up over the shed was what we use to call it the ballroom. They had a piano and you could take a gang and if anybody could play a fiddle . . you'd have atime down there. Take hay ride parties or something down there you know. B.B.: Do you remember when that burnt down, approximately? J.S.: I don't remember when that burnt down, but it hasn't been, it isn't that so many years ago. There's a house built right on the corner there where the Hotel use to stand. it now I don't know. But who lives in Oh; I don't know, time goes so fast I don't want to say how long ago it was that that burnt down but it don't seem to me it was an awful long while ago. I think Charlie Hawkins . . you know Hawkins in Fort Erie? Well there use to be Charlie and Harry and Ted and a whole gang of them fellows around there. 10 �And Ted run that Hotel there, the half-way house.. and they moved and bought in Stevensville and his brother took this place down here. B.B.: You had mentioned you were at the opening of the Peace Bridge. J .S.: I wasn't down there, I didn't go down..oh, ya I was down in the summertime. . ! didn't take time'off. I think, wasn't the big doing . on a Sunday though. I never knew when I was working .! was with Law's Construction Co. at that time. B.B.: So you were into Fort Erie.. Bridgeburg, and old Fort Erie, Amigari. . J.S.: Old Fort Erie, Amigari, Victoria... B.B.: You remember it as Victoria ? J.S.: Oh, ya. Victoria Yard. and a Hotel. All they had up there was a roundhouse They use to call it the Railroad Hotel. And from the Railroad pretty near up to .. what's that street coming through from the Bridge out there, by the back of Horton Steele, over the Bridge there you know, the main bridge coming through . B.B.: Lewis, Lewi .s Street ? J.S.: No, no. ( The one that comes across the railroad tracks, comes past the Catholic Church. B.B.: You mean Central Avenue. J.S.: Central Avenue, yes. There wasn't very many houses on the other side of Central Avenue. That was all commons in there. B.B.: What do you mean by commons ? J.S.: Bare land. People had their cow and chickens and what ever tied out there in them fields. B.B.: Over there..would that be the north end of Fort Erie they consider now .. is that what you mean? J.S.: Ya, out west of Fort, Brdigeburg now, along the railroad tracks. You know where that subway goes out under the track out there, well from that on in there wasn't any houses at all until you got up pretty near to Central Avenue. All that along there was all.. you could go down there with horse and buggy and drive right across the fields from one street to the other. B.B.: Whendid it start to get built up? J.S.: Well, it's been building and building and building all the time. B.B.: What do you think was part of the reason? J.S.: Well they started to get more factories and all that stuff in 11 �and the railroad was the big thing down there. You see there was the Grand Trun k one time and the Michigan Central and the Wabash and the T H&:B, they all had yards..big railroad yards. My god, they had that roundhouse up there and they had two down farther, three or four of them big roundhouses up there..when you went up to that subway, that subway under the track. B.B.: Do you remember when Victoria Yard took on the name Bridgeburg? J.S.: No, I don't but the railroad always called it Victoria Yard. They had a little place up there, up in Victoria Yard but when they took it over I don't know. B.B.: Do you remember old Jarvis Street ? J.S.: Oh, yes. B.B.: How has that changed or what did that look like ? J.S.: How it changed..well you know where the post office is, Cutlers had a butcher shop there. On this side of the butcher shop there was a man by the name of Bill Brown lived in there. to that Jack Anchor had a blacksmith's shop. And next And then there was a fellow in there, people use to call him Green Kelly, old ( Green Kelly. B.B.: Why did they call him Green Kelly? J.S.: Well his name was Kelly and he sold vegetables and stuff. And then there was..one-armed, Scotty, Scotty Jackson..he had a place in there, he sold pipes and tobacco and papers and all such stuff as that. And I think there was a fellow up a bit farther, his name was Tom Naggs, he had a barber shop. And I don't think there was anything on that 'til you got up to Central Avenue and you know that far corner where the Telephone is in ther now, Telephone place..that's where John T. James use to have a grocery store and he built that building there. B.B.: Do you remember John T. James? J.S.: Oh, yes! Now on this side, on the north side of Jarvis Street, the Bank was on that side. The Post Office was on that side and Dicky Whites bake shop was on that side. a big grocery store up there. And L'Hayes had And then down towards the river there was a place in there they called it the Liquid Veneer. And there wasn't anything from there down to the river, that was all vacant land. And that street, Jarvis Street, when it was 12 �raining it was just like pancake batier, it was just mud and clay. B.B.: J.S.: Ya, I think it was. B.B.: What was it? J.S.: ( That place..it was called the Liquiti Veneer? Why something you put on furniturL'. polish it, the furniture. You'd go like that and you'd Same as th is here..what do they call it now, what's this stuff you spr'ay on, they call it..put on your furniture. It came in kind of a botr!e, square bottle about that wide. mayor at that time? B.B.: Who was the..did Bridgeburg have J.S.: Yes they did. B.B.: What about the business section in \)ld Fort Erie, down in the a They had a mayor..oh, I can't tell you.... south end? J.S.: Well there wasn't any ..all along the river there from the ferry boat up and down, a lot of shacks.. it's all built up wonderful. And going from there down to the Bridge you know, the Niagara, from the ferry down to the railroad bridge, well that was nothing but shacks and boat houses and stulf like that. That's all built up now. B.B.: ( Did Amigari have a business section at am J.S.: Oh, ya. Up in there they had a hotd and a store.. Jacksons had a store up in there, Tommy Jackson. No not Tommy, his brother, Frank Jackson run a grocery store 11p there. B.B.: Do you remember what street that would have been on? J.S.: I don't know what street it was but it was the main street when you went around, going up by the race track up there that way. But it was just before you crossed the track, right down there. B.B.: Gilmore Road? J.S.: Bertie Street, right there on the corner. B.B.: Did you use to come into Fort Erie quite a bit? J.S.: Oh, ya. B.B.: What about Ridgeway..how's Ridgeway changed? J.S.: When I moved here I guess there was about 300 people. When they started to make the breakwall in Buffalo...it br-0Jl-ght in lot of people here. B.B.: J.S.: ( Why is that? Well they had to have some place to live and board. was a lot of people moved in. 'Cause there They had two or three..men working down there you know getting stone out and sending it over, when 13 �they built the Buffalo breakwall out in the lake. before That was built 19 ..that was built between 1900 and 1908 or 1909. . B.B.: Where did they get the stone from? J.S.: Well Windmill Point Quarry down there. that is? Do you know where Well right out of that..that's how that hole got in there. The one this way not, the one the other way is where Law got but the one on this side. They use to call it the Burger Quarry. That's where they got the stone. . there was two holes down there, one this side and one on the other side. B.B.: Why was it called the Burger Quarry? J.S.: Well Burgers lived down around there. And the other one over there was where Law use to, Arty Law got stone out of. He use to build a lot of roads around. . . B.B.: So that's why a lot of people started coming u p into this area? J.S.: Well they did you know. They got in here but Ridgeway use to be quite a bit more .. there was saw mills and planing mills, flour mills and everything. mill in Fort Erie. You know they never use to have a planing And they use to grind and make flour here and they use to draw all the flour from here to Fort Erie and Niagara Falls and Chippawa and Crystal Beach, down here in the mill. There was no high school in Fort Erie, there was none in Ridgeway there was none in Port Colborne. If you wanted to go to high school you had to go to Welland. And if you didn't have any money you got a kick in the ..and that was all you got. That was me in public school. B.B.: What grade did you..you were unable to go on? J.S.: I went all through public school and that's all about anybody got around to in them days. Unless you were a millionaire and you could send your kid to Buffalo. I know some of them use to go over to Bryant & Stratton in Buffalo. And some of them use to go to Welland but there wasn't very many. B.B.: Where was the school that you went to? J.S.: The old school is up .. you know where Bickells store is..that building this side of it. That's when it was a four room school. four rooms and there wasn't enough kids to fill them. It was They only 14 �used three rooms and that took in Crystal Beach, Ridgeway, all the surrounding country around here, everybody went1 school then and there wasn't enough to fill three rooms. to The fourth room upstairs they used of a library. B.B.: Why wasn't there enough children.. was it because they didn't come? J.S.: Wasn't populated enough. B.B.: Just not enough children. J.S.: It was yes. Was it compulsory to go to school? I don't think they started kids to school 'til they was seven years old and then you had to go until you was fourteen. If you wasn't through public school you could quit if you wanted to but you had to go 'til you was fourteen. sidewalks here. And there was no Only sidewalk in Ridgeway was from this corner here up to the railroad track, on both side of the street. Rest of these streets all around..well this street wasn't here at all, it's only been here about..well it's been here about because I've been here lived in that next house. last house on here. 73 years. TJ years that I know But this was.. my dad Ya I built down here and he was the There was no houses over on that street. There was a maple sugar bush over there. We use to go out maple syruping..see those big maple trees. B.B.: You could go buy your maple syrup right there? J.S.: Oh, yes, sure. it's about $20 You could get it for about a gallon. 75¢ a gallon. Now Also they had to boil sap. This street up here.. well this street wasn't very many because there was no sidewalk or anything down here when I built down here. No gas, no lights. B.B.: Do you remember when the telephone came in? J.S.: Ya. B.B.: Where was your telephone office? J.S.: Well it was down on South Mill there. It was Welland County they called it. B.B.: Do you remember who the operator was? J.S.: Ya. B.B.: What was her name? J.S.: Kennedys. They bought a house and they put a, they operated a telephone business in the front of the house there. That's when 15 �they had to sit there and shove thoseplugs in you know .. They had a telephone hanging up there on the wall and if you wanted anybbay you..three shorts and two longs maybe or two longs and a short or one short and three longs or.. that's the way you got your telephone, anybody hear that ring and they'd answer it. Well the Bell Telephone they bought out the Welland County and made it all one. Then Bell moved in here. But you couldn't call, like if you wanted the Welland County, all around the country everybody had it but the Bell if you wanted to call to Buffalo or Toronto or anyplace you had to go through Bell Telephone but you could call Fort Erie, .• Bridgeburg, Stevensville and Port Colborne and everthing in Welland County. Then Bell bought out the Welland County you know. Did you know Glenny's in Fort Erie.. Glenny's, well Charlie Glenny was one of the first ones, him and a man by the name of Tait that use to live in Ridgeway and Fort Erie and a couple of other farmers down there, there the ones that started the Welland County Telephone. Charlie Glenny he was a farmer that lived down in there then. He use to live in Bridgeburg. Do you know where the Anglican Church is just off the Bowen Road there? Well Charlie Glenny ( use to live way off down that road. That's how it developed then •. they kept stretching oLtand stretching out and taking, buying people was taking stock in it and one thing and another and first thing they had they were in Stevensville and Ridgeway, had a regular telephone. They had a good central.. between everything but you couldn't get into the States here, you couldn't get to Toronto. B.B.: So they started just with lines? J.S.: Ya. B.B.: Do you remember the fires in Ridgeway? J.S.: Oh, ya..ya I was here. I lived up on Elm Street then. B.B.: For the first or second one or for both of them. J.S.: Both of them. First one, I say 19 12 but there's a fellow in here this morning that was trying to tell me 1913. It was April the lst I know that, April Fools Day. B.B.: J.S.: ( How did it start or I don't know w .. • ? t started it but it burnt through Cutler Street up that, to Anthony's store through that whole block. •• B.B. : was there a fire station around here at that time? J.S.: No, no no! . • 16 �B.B.: How did they f � ght the fire? J.S.: With a bucket, pail of water wherever you could get it. B.B.: So the men would just go down.. was it all volunteer or. ..? J.S.: Oh, all sure. Use to go around to somebody's cistern or pump or if you could get water to a pump, run dry and then you'd quit. Let's see there hasn't been firemen in here.Jet's see, how long ago, 2 0's sometime I think before they had a fire department. B.B.: Do you remember the second fire? J.S.: Oh, ya ....was that 19 16 or what year was that? Ya, that didn't burn so much. That was from the Harris Street, up that way. And the first one was from this block .•. Hibbard's had a store there. The first house that burnt was Fred Hanns, a beautiful big house there right at the Oddfellows Hall. And the next one.vas Dell Sietz, a 5¢ store .. the Hibbards had a store there and that hadn't been built so very long. It was the nicest store in town, big birch store and nice front lawn and everything. Then Wally Wilson had a barber shop, that burnt. And Dr. Brewster, they had a drug store, that burnt. And old man Hibbard he had a little office between Brewster's drug store and Anthony's store. Then they tore that building out to keep the fire ( away from the other buildings ..and it got scorched but it didn't burn. All the block around there. And then the second fire was over on the other side of Anthony Street, that was from Cutler's store down toward the railroad track. That didn't burn but got burnt, t he store on the corner and I don't think there was anything else there. Just ..the biggest one was the second. Well the second one I think it was when they brought the water up from Fort Erie by the railroad. They run the engines down and fill the tanks up and run up to the crossing there and they had pumps and they'd pump a lot of that and the engine would run back and pick up another load. Then the firemen from Buffalo came up, the Peace Bridge was opened then, they come across the Peace Bridge. Oh, I don't know how many firemen from Buffalo they had over here. The Salvation Army brought th�ir lunch wagon over here. B.B.: Where were they located the Salvation Army? J.S.: They came from Buffalo with the firemen. They use to furnish .• coffee and everything, set it up for the firefighters. B.B.: Do you remember some pretty bad winters around here? Are the winters getting better or worse? 17 �J.S.: They didn't plough the roads or anything like they do now or sidewalks. Horses are the way you got through it you know. When I first lived here there was no houses or anything. When the saw mills moved down here that's seventy-three years ago when I moved in here. .• I use to see them come in here at night with six, seven teams of horses. They'd all be coming into the saw mill down here. Great big logs on those big logging sleighs and there'd be two teams all on one log, you know, taking it through. B.B.: Where were they bringing them from? J.S.: Up here in the country. They use to cut a lot of timber up here. They use to saw it up down here and load it on the ties and carry it away. B.B.: What about Point Abino..do you know much about that area? Do remember much about that? J.S.: Well, I've been up around there a lot but I don't remember the old timers or anything. But that's built up so now. B.B.: But you wouldn't go up there much? J.S.: Oh, I'd go up there every once in awhile to. the light house and what they've got is all fenced off. If you don't know somebody out on the point you can't get back there. They have a watchman there and the gate is shut. It's all private. They do their own work there. I know the guy and he let's me go through..... But I don't blame them people because up there people use to go in there and they'd picnic out in front of their houses along the lake and they'd leave a lot of stuff and they put a gate up to keep them out. .• B.B.: Have you noticed a build up of homes along the lake? Was it always so, so many homes along the lake? J.S.: Oh, no, no..no, no. It use to be all grass along the lake. B.B.: Did people want the property at that time? Did they think it was worth much? IJ..S�: Well a lot of people wanted it but the people that owned it they were holding it for a big price. They knew they was going to get it. So they put tax on it. They finally taxed them so much for lakefront property, they payed more taxes than we did back in the country because they were'nt going to sell it off:.=:. _Bt.it I know down throu �h here there wasn't well from here down to Six Mile Creek .• there was only a couple of houses. All the way 'til you got down 18 �Erie Beach pretty near, there wasn't ..farmhouses, just farmhouses along. ( B.B.: Where's Six Mile Creek? J.S.: B.B.: Down here about a mile. Right straight down oomnion Road. . It's just...? J.S.: It's just a little creek down there, this side of Stonemill Pt. Road, Windmill Point Road. Clause's down here, they owned clear.. they owned the whole thing down there. B.B.: So there was major property owners in here. People ... J.S.: Well you know we owned from here down to the .. 1st property land, down to the lake and then the next was the Rebstock farm and the next was the Haun's. And then there was Schooley's and so on..Ebsels, Ed Baxters, Haun .. all the way 'til you got to Point Abino, oh there was a lot of them. B.B.: How many acreages approximately would each own? Were they quite large? J.S.: Oh, ya they were good size farms B.B.: Your father, stepfather, he.. how much did he own..what type of, how much property did he take in or area did he take in? ( J.S.: Oh I suppose he had maybe ..let's see there was 28 acres in that golf course. B.B.: Where would it start and where would it end? J.S.: It started up in the main road here and went down through to the Crystal Beach ... B.B.: And then down to the lake? J.S.: Well it did one time but I don't know who got that, how they ..but Crystal Beach got some of that too. But I think my stepfather, his father owned it to the lake at one time. B.B.: And then Rebstock he owned from the other side of J.S.: He owned from Rebstock Road right straight down to the lake. .•• ? And then he bought the next farm up there, what was the Ed Baxter farm Schooley farm, then the Ed Baxter farm. He bought both •. of them farms. And then the American pe ople bought all them .like • Baxter he bought a lot of farms up there and Coatsworth and oh •.• bought them farms from Gordie Haun oh, there's so many of them I can't •. think •.. ( B.B.: Then as this place started to become more populated they would sell off different sections? 19 �J.S.: Oh, yes. You go up there now, go up the Erie Road to Point Abino, that's all built up on both sides. These farms I was telling you about ' that Rebstock bought..he opened that up all up. And there's houses ( along the lake so thick, you know all the way from here clear up, all along the shore of Lake Erie. You go all up Point Abino and Sherkston and all up them places, you can't hardly get out there anywheres. B.B.: It's gone through some changes. J.S.: Oh, I know because I worked all along them places. B.B.: Can you think of any other changes as you look back that you would like to tell us about? J.S.: I don't know... Walt Brackbill and his son-in-law, Rizely had the pop factory. They use to make all the pop for Crystal Beach and Fort Erie and they use to pedal it all around, all over. B.B.: Where was it located.. the factory? J.S.: Right out, not very far, down there on the Rebstock Road. B.B.: And they use to pedal it to the different amusement parks and ... ? J.S.: Oh, ya. They went around to the different stores and hotels and out there they use to sell them in the park. They use to sell an awful lot. B.B.: What was the name of their factory? J.S.: Northern Springs. They use to take it down all over..Fort Erie, and..a lot of people use to go right to the factory to get it. But they had an awful business there. 'Til these bigger firms like Coke, Pepsi..all them got driving in, cutting prices. Well they..you know the smaller ones they got, these bigger firms like ginger ale, Niagara Ginger Ale..all that kind of stuff, soft drinks and they got taming into the B·=ach. It's the same way with the milk wagon, the bake wagons and everything else. They all come in and cut the small fellow out. No more 5¢ bread and 5¢ milk. You can't get any of that stuff anymore. B.B.: You had a golf course during the Depression? J.S.: Ya. B.B.: Where was it located? J.S.: Between here and Crystal Beach. B.B.: How did that get started? J.S.: Well there was a fellow from Buffalo come over and put in a driving range out there. And my grandfather made it a nine-hole golf course. 20 �And of course my grandfather got rid of him and he wanted me to run it for him. So I went out there and run it for two or three years for him. Now it's all sold off, all built up with cottages. You know where the Catholic Church is in Crystal Beach well that was a nine hole golf course we use to have along there. ....stepfather... B.B.: So it wasn't your grandfather who owned it, it was your father who owned it? J.S.: My stepfather. .... When that fire was..down the street here there was a house dance. And we went out to go home and we looked up the street and we seen the fire. We went back in the house to tell the gang and they wouldn't believe me. They thought I was April fooling them. And they wouldn't come out. And Geneva Clark, she went in and got them out and we all run up the street. B.B.: And they finally believed you. It wasn't an April Fools joke. Well can you think of anything else Mr. Stickles? J.S.: Changes, no. B.B.: Well you've done fantastic Mr. Stickles. You've given us some really good information and we appreciate it. J.S.: I don't know..I'd hate to tell you some of the tricks we done around here. I'll leave that up to somebody else. B.B.: Okay. Thank you. 21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Beverly Branton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. John Sickles Location The location of the interview. Mr. Sickles home at 3756 Dominion Road, Ridgeway Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Sickles, John Description An account of the resource Provided here is John Sickles interview. He discusses such topics as: Stevensville Ridgeway Crystal Beach Transportation Law enforcement Railroad Crystal Beach Amusement Park Erie Beach Ferries North end Amigari Fire Department Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 17, 1985 1980s 1985 Amigari Crystal Beach Crystal Beach amusement park Erie Beach ferries Fort Erie north end Oral history railroad ridgeway stevensville transcripts transportation http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/24d18c47ec78e78e0f1c963597c580c7.pdf a6ed90c0b197f8847b40196fd37ab93b PDF Text Text This is Rose Hearn interviewing Mrs. Annie Staddon, 333 Central Avenue, Fort Erie, Ontario, and the date is September 20, 1985. R.H: Good morning Mrs. Staddon, how are you? A.S: Oh, I see, you are recording it. R.H: Could you please tell me where you were born? A.S: I Well, I was born in Liverpool, England and then I married a Londoner I'm fine thank-you. and I moved to London. R.H: What is your date of birth? A.S: The 3rd of February, R.H: When did you come to Canada? A.S: 1927, R.H: Oh yeah, that was the date of the Peace Bridge Opening, did you 1898. the day the Prince of Wales opened the Peace Bridge. arrive on that exact date? A.S: Yes. R.H: So, you came right to Fort Erie then? A.S: Yes. When we got out of the train at Fort Erie, it had to go around and down Courtwright Street and along the Boulevard to go up to the West End. So, the taxi driver said "Hurry up, hurry up". I had three youngsters, I said, "What's the hurry?" and my hubby was with me. i "What's the hurry?" "Oh," he says, "The Prince is opening the Peace Bridge and they're going to close the road up". have got out to come around, you see. He couldn't I wasn't too interested because just coming from London, in fact, I was a mear 15 minutes from Hyde Park and I used to push the kiddies through there and I remember seeing the Queen married. R.H: So, was there a lot of people around that day when you arrived? A.S: No. R.H: To see the... A.S: To see the Queen? R.H: No, to see the Peace Bridge Opening? A.S: Peace Bridge Opening! I didn't even go down but there were a lot. I bought the newspapers, I think I told you that, didn't I? I bought the newspapers and I used to do Christmas baskets here, I did them for 23 years and... R.H: Who did you do that for? A.S: I did them through the Red Cross. now for 45 I've been with the Red Cross years and I'm still with them. (1) But anyway, I... So, then �when Regional came in, they decided it was a minister's job, after me doing it all these years. ( Well, anyway I didn't mind, I was getting older and. .. one winter it was so bad, the police came out and helped me deliver. Yeah, they were very good. Reverand McLarnon of the Presbyterian Church, well, he took over and asked all the ministers for a meeting. There was only two of them turned up, so they called back on me and asked me to help them,'which I didn't. Anyway, in a way I was pleased because it was getting to be a bit too much, but anyway that was through Regional that happened. There's a lot of things happened since we went Regional, believe you me. R.H: So, you were involved with the Red Cross for a long time then? A.S: Ever since it started. I was one of the originals with Mrs. Teal, Mrs. Oscar Teal, I mean the old lady. I knew John and all of them when they were kids, they used to live. . . R.H: When you delivered these Christmas baskets, who were they given to? A.S: I used to have a meeting at the Town Hall and I used to call all the different organizations to send up a representative. My daughter acted as my secretary and I would say further more, people on welfare, ( you could not get their names, only through the Town Hall. So, this is the reason they cooperated with me because I got the names. I would say for instance, "I have Mr. and Mrs. Jones and two children", and someone would say, "I'll take them". So, my daughter would put that down, which ones had be�n taken care of. So, I had all this about the Prince coming, in the paper, the newspaper and of course, I bought one. Reverand McLarnon came down and he happened to call at the house one day to see me, although I didn't go to his church, but he called at the house and he was going up to Colonel Weir's, by the river. He got talking and I... we got talking about when I came and when the Prince opened up the Peace Bridge and I said, "I've got some papers on it". He said, "Oh, have you". So, I showed them to him and he went away, visited, and I had a phone call about half an hour later, Colonel Weir wanted to know if I would give him the newspaper with all this proceedings in it. I said, "Sure". So, Reverand McLarnon came down and picked them up and took them up to him. ( I was weeks and weeks getting it back and when I did, he had cut it all up in pieces. (2) I was so darned annoyed, I've �never forgiven him for it. Well, I think he did that to make copies and I imagine they're in the Peace Bridge now, I don't know but ( I imagine they are. But it annoyed me to think he did that, that's the same as a piece of music. I used to have a store here you know. R.H: Oh, you did, you had a store? A.S: Yeah, and there was a man came in, I knew him slightly. His name was Asia Hike and he said, "Would you like this Mrs. Staddon". I said, "what's that?" he said, "A piece of music on Fort Erie". I said, "Who wrote it?" It's a piece of music on Fort Erie and I loaned it to. .. Bert Jepson wanted it, he was the Town Clerk you know. I loaned it to Bert and damn me if they didn't cut some of it off so that they could get it in the.. . make a copy of it. I'll think twice before I loan anything like that again. Further more, I've got this picture of when the library opened, I wonder if they've got one here? I would give it to them but I just could not find it, I know I have it. I was here at the opening but I'll bring it over for them to. . . if they haven't got one. R.H: A.S: ( What kind of store did you have? Well, I was brought up in the bakery business in England and when we came out here... I don't want you putting anything of this down... R.H: So, you were saying Fleet called you up one day and... ? A.S: Fleet called me up one day and wanted to know if I would go and see them. So, I went up and he said, "I wonder if you'd go around and find accomodation for some of the girls and men that are coming from Toronto and different places". They had no accomodation, you see. I said, "Sure" so, they gave me a little office up there and they gave me anything. $20 a week but they never paid for my gas or They built the place over where the Catholic Church is. R.H: Are you talking about Winston Hall, the hostel? A.S: Well, it isn't there now. R.H: I know, but wasn't it on Central Avenue? A.S: Yes, it was on Central and the girls were boarding there. Then after a time when they got them, they told me that was it. mind anyway. R.H: ( How long did you do that for? A.S: I just can't recollect but I think about six months. (3) I didn't �R.H: You said that you had a bus running to Buffalo, was that a local bus? A.S: It was a local bus and Tom Bright drove it, ten cents. R.H: The cost was ten cents. A.S: ( It was at the North End. Where did that pick the people up? It used to come up Lewis Street to Jennet Street, down Gilmore and down Central to the Peace Bridge. R.H: How often did it do this? A.S: It was two or three times a day. R.H: Was this your idea? A.S: Oh no, it wasn't my idea. R.H: What year would that be, approximately what year? A.S: Oh, that would be in the early '30s. It was a local transit bus, their idea. man, very nice man though. Tom Bright was a coloured The Bright family are an old family here. R.H: When did you start organizing the Senior Citizens? A.S: When did I start doing that? That was 24 years ago. I started off with 12 women and now there's four clubs and there's about 500. R.H: What kind of functions do you run for these clubs? A.S: What do I do? What do all the seniors do? ( Oh, they have trips and in the winter they play cards and they have entertainment and so on. R.H: You say you worked for the Red Cross, during the war, did you do anything for the soldiers that went overseas? I know the Red Cross did, but was there anything that was done in Fort Erie? A.S: In Fort Erie for the soldiers? Yes. I myself was the only one, I don't think anybody else did anything. .. apart from knitting socks and things like that, I went around to the homes of the local soldiers and I got their addresses and we filled ditty bags... R.H: What was a ditty bag? A.S: Well, it was a bag about so big and we put pens, notepaper and all that kind of thing in and sent them to our local soldiers. When the war was over, they used to call me from the station and I used to meet the trains coming from Buffalo and oh boy! did they ever shout, the boys. There was only one fellow that got off the train and he rushed at me, threw his arms around me and kissed me, you should have heard the fellows on the train. ( . It was funny. Some of them asked me to make telephone calls for them, to say they were coming home. The train was there for about 15 or 20 minutes. (4) �R.H: So, the soldiers asked ybu to make phone calls for them? A.S: Yeah, l made some phone calls to their homes to say that they were ( on their way. R.H: You mean you were talking to them at the station and they asked you to make the phone calls and you got the phone numbers right there? A.S: Yes, they gave me their phone numbers at the train station. R.H: Didn't you drive a truck or something during the war? A.S: I drove a Red Cross truck. of it. Yes, I should have brought a picture I drove that all during the war and I had a funny experience. Mrs. Chiswell, her husband was boss at Fleet, well, she came with me and the two of us went out. We used to pick up anything that was saleable and we used to take it down to Jarvis Street to a Mrs. Dawson, she had a store there and they used to sell all these things and the money went to the Red Cross. I went out on the truck this day and we went up near the Old Fort. came out, I forget what she gave us. There was a woman She said to Mrs. Chiswell, "I've got a mattress here", and she said, "I don't need it". "Would you care to take it". ( She said, Well, Herb Guess was mayor at that time and Herb Guess owned the place across the street. . . R.H: Was that the place on Courtwright? A.S: No, on the Boulevard, the river side. He loaned us this building and we used to keep all our stuff in there. R.H: I thought it was on Courtwright and the Niagara Boulevard, is that the place? A.S: That's where he lived, on the other side but he had this. .. oh, no, he lived on the other side, Herb did. But he used to loan us this building and we kept all our goods in there. said, "Certainly". So, she goes inside and I said, "Do you want any help", 'cause it was a big mattress. feathers". Anyway, Mrs. Chiswell So, she said, "No, it's full of So, she came out with it and I'm still sitting in the truck, she came out and she threw it over the truck and I heard such a scream. I got out of the truck and I went around and looked, I thought it was some animal from some weird place. She was covered in feathers, she'd caught it on the top of the truck and I can see her now. ( There was a wind came up and all the feathers started flying and I thought she was taking off. (5) Oh, we had some funny �funny things happen. It's like William and... oh, the Chinese man. . . oh, I know him s o well. . . Skippy Wong. Well, Skippy and George had a restaurant just 'round the corner from Courtwright on Jarvis ( Street, just 'round the corner. I was on the Board of Health also, I was on the Board of Health with Dr. Mulvaney for we never got any pay either. 17 years and Anyway, Dr. Mulvaney, he used to have the truck come up, once a month, they had to come to the stores, take a blood sample and he would exam them and they would get a thing to put in the stores, one two or three. We'd have people from the hotel and he used to go down there and he would find lipstick on the glasses, they'd never been properly washed. He went into Skippy's and George's and he found out that George had T.B. He said, "If I ever see you in a kitchen again, I'll be closing you up the same day". They moved soon after that, down to Queen Street, not Queen Street, across from the Peace Bridge there. R.H: A.S: So, anyway they moved down there. R.H: So, they were quite strict then, the Board of Health? A.S: { Behind the Peace Bridge? Oh yes, absolutely. Do you mean George's Chinese Restuarant? Dr. Mulvaney was wonderful, he used to go around and see that everything was okay. R.H: Didn't they have to have their hair covered and everything in restaurants? A.S: Not always, some of them did. R.H: Did the Board of Health give them a sticker if everything was alright? A.S: Yes. R.H: So, each place was inspected? A.S: Yes, the sticker was one, two or three. R.H: What was the best? A.S: Number one, number one was perfect. R.H: But with three you could still stay open? A.S: Yes, well, he told them that they had to fix this or do that. Oh, he was very strict in those days. months. I worked at the hospital for six Mrs. Chiswell and I, she used to live down on Bertie Street right across from where Dr. Mulvaney lived. Well, anyway, she lived across there and I only lived across the street here. . . R.H: A.S: ( O n Central? Yes, at the corner of Idylwylde and she called me to say, "I'm ready". She'd walk up Bertie Street, I'd walk along Central and we used (6) �to meet each other and then walk up. We used to empty bedpans and make beds and... ( R.H: Was this volunteer work? A.S: They had no volunteers. R.H: A.S: R.H: A.S: We worked there for six months. Were you volunteers though? We were volunteers. Is that when the hospital first opened? No, it was after that, it was after that. I went up one day ... I sang in the choir down here for R.H: A.S: 35 years and.. . Where? St. Paul's Anglican Church. Mrs. Fitzgibbon, you wouldn't remember her, it's quite a few years since she died. Her sister-in-law was our organist so, I knew her quite well but she had a maid, Jessie Webb, and Jessie was putting curtains up one day and she fell down and broke her leg. So, I used to visit her in the hospital. After she got out of bed, I went up one day and she was pushing two chairs to get around. So, I looked at her and I said, "Haven't you got walker here?" She said, "I've never seen anything like that, what's a it like?" The nurse came in and I said, "Haven't you got any walkers?" She said, "No, we haven't". Well, I had a walker that was given { to me by an American gentleman. So, I took my walker up there and when Jessie went home the hospital wanted to keep it. Well, I was in the hospital auxiliary at the time and I was one of the first to be on the auxiliary 'til Mrs.... I can't think of her name now, she started it. She lived at the bottom of ... I can't remember her name but anyway, Jessie took this home with her, I allowed her to, knowing her. So, when we had our auxiliary meeting, I happened to mention this. I explained about Jessie, how she had used two chairs and so, they said, "Well, where did you get it?" I said, "I . got it from a gentleman in Buffalo, he gave it to me". So, they said, "Well, we're willing to pay for half a dozen, where can we get them?" So, I knew Blair Harbour, he worked at the Fleet before he started his business, and I spoke to him and Blair said, "Bring it down". He just started then, he'd just started in business. I took the walker down to Blair .. . R.H: A.S: What kind of business was he in? He makes boats. He's got a place on Lewis Street as well as at (7) �the back here. these boats. ( Well, he worked at Fleet and Fleet used to make Well, they didn't think it paid them so they quit making them and Blair took it over. Well, he left Fleet and started on his own with the boats and he's done alright. Well, anyway, I took it down and Blair Harbour made the first six for the hospital, the first six walkers. R.H: How did the axiliary raise the money for this? A.S: The hospital paid for them, oh yes, the hospital paid for all of them. R.H: A.S: Did the auxiliary ever raise money themselves to get things? The hospital? In those days we didn't very much. But I remember before the hospital was built. .. Dr. Douglas lived at the bottom of Bertie Street, he wasn't operating as a doctor because he was past it. When he died, he left it in his will, all his money had to go to a hospital to be built here and he left the ground. He left the ground at the bottom of Bertie Street on the right hand side on a bit of a hill. to Dr. Douglas. That's where Dr. Mulvaney lived but that belonged When they looked at it, they said, "It wasn't appropriate for a hospital to be built there," which it wasn't. So, they went around looking and they bought this sight, Mr. Sherk owned it, they ( bought the ground off him where the hospital is now. It was a much better sight. R.H: A.S: Did they sell the other property then? Oh yes, they sold it. recorded. R.H: A.S: Then there's things. . . but I don't want that They needed a home for the nurses. . . Did the hospital want a home for the nurses? A residence for the nurses. the hospital". So, I said, "Why not build one outside Well, they left that. . . later they bought this one up on Central Avenue just past Bertie Street on the right hand side. It's got a big fire escape on the outside. all the nurses were local. Well, it didn't pay off because They had to pay for a housekeeper, they had to keep the nurses and that and it didn't work out at all, so they sold it. R.H: A.S: But the hospital was a good thing for this Town, wasn't it? Oh, absolutely, because everybody had to go to the Falls and there wasn't the transportation around in those days. You figure, there wasn't the cars that there are today and the roads. . . oh gosh, when ( I came here the roads were. . . Jarvis Street wasn't paved. (8) Jarvis �Street was not paved when I came here and they had hitching posts up for the horses. ( Mrs. Dawson, the same lady that had used our store for us afterwards, she had a kind of store there where she sold buns and things like that. You could go for a cup of coffee and a bun and things like that and I thought, my gosh, what have I come to? I could have swam back. R.H: A.S: Did it look like the 'Wild Wild West' to you? It did, I'd seen it on pictures, you know the old-fashioned pictures: Then, they had a parade afterwards, after the road was finished and Mrs Wintemute won first prize, I always remember that. think Wintemute Street was called after her family. I She only had a car with a few paper flowers on it and she won the first prize. R.H: Do you mean for the car being decorated, like a float type thing? A.S: Yes, so you can tell what kind of parade it was. I do citizenship and.. . R.H: A.S: What do you mean, you do citizenship? Well, I'm doing it right now. People call me up and then I arrange for the Town Hall and they come down from St. Catharines 'cause that office is closed now ... they just closed it and Judge Wong was ( the judge and she's left her job. I'm not quite sure what it is. I Joelieve she's got another job but ' But Hamilton is running it now and they come down or send somebody down, and they question them. You have to pay a fee, it used to be five dollars when I first started it, it's R.H: A.S: $40 now. When did you start doing that? Oh, some years ago. And then, after they have been questioned, then Judge Wong came down and they used to take the oath. The I.O.D. E. used to ... well, they only started coming the last two or three years. The I.0.D.E. started coming and giving them a certificate: R.H: I know you're not a member but do you know anything about that organization, like the background for instance? A.S: No, no. There was no I.O.D.E. when I came here, in fact, there weren't many organizations when I came. R.H: So, you mentioned that you held your meetings at the Town Hall . when you were organizing this.. ? A.S: Citizenship? Well, they won't come unless I have at least so, I have more than half of them at the present moment. (9) 20 names When �I get 20 them. ( names, I'll call Hamilton and they will come down and interview When the Judge comes, of course I have to arrange for the Council Chambers . . . so, when the Judge comes, we have a mountie there with the Judge. They all come in and you can bring your ... say you were getting your citizenship ... you can bring your family with you and we supply refreshments for the families and that. R.H: A.S: Have you ever been involved in politics? Politics? Oh, one time. . . we had Dr. Hays living here, he was a dentist in the South End and he and his wife. .. his wife and I were very friendly, so she called me up one day and she was a great conservative, so, she said, "Anne", she said, "We're having a bash, we will go to the arena in Welland. is coming to speak to us". make it Florrie". my best". Diefenbaker So, I said, "Oh gee, I don't know if I can "Oh, come on," she said. I said, "Well, I'll do So, I got dinner ready and I got the bus at the corner here and the women were already in it. We go to Welland, we hear Diefenbaker and he. .. but anyway coming out after listening to him, they had a tarpaulin over the ice, well I wasn't .. . they should have mentioned the fact, you know. ( But coming out, I wasn't on the main floor, on the central floor and the tarpaulin was puckering like that, you know. I stood on it and down I went, on my hip. I broke my hip and they took me to the hospital, they took me in the ambulance to Welland. The doctor said, "Oh, I can fix it for you but it might be a little short". I said, "No, thank-you, I'm going back to Fort Erie". So, they sent me back here and Dr. Mulvaney of course came immediately and took me over to Buffalo. only in there about a week and they put a pin in so about I was 12 later. . . when they shipped meback here to Fort Erie, about months 12 months later I was in bed and you know how you put your hand down? and, I thought, what's this? I felt this little lump, I thought surely that's not the pin coming out. So, I called Dr. Mulvaney, "No, it's very seldom they come out". He said, "Anyway, come down". So, I went down and he says, "Your right, the only thing we can do, is take it out". So, back in the hospital I went to get this pin out, I should've sued them at the time. the arena. ( I would've done, today they would you know, But anyway, they paid my hospital expenses, for Buffalo 'cause there was no O. H.I. P. then you know, and I was incapacitated (IO) �a few weeks but anyway it's never bothered me since. R.H: A.S: Did you ever get involved in local politics? No. I used to be involved in England and my hubby was interested, it was through him that I got interested. So, we had the three children and he'd go one week and I'd go the next week. Darn me, the week I went, there was so much shouting. Oh, they were shouting and hollering, ready to fight each other. So, they locked the doors, a fellow stood up and he spoke and he said, "I hereby call Marshall Law". So, they sent for the Militia and let all the women out, they arrested those that were in the disturbance. But they have to read it out when they are having Marshall Law and so, I never went again after that. R.H: A.S: When you drove this Red Cross truck, where did they keep that? Well, Herb Guess. . . oh no, who was it? We kept it on Lewis Street, some house, but we kept it on Lewis Street and different women drove it, I wasn't the only one. We had a garage next door, just where what's his name is now? You know the one that's making the boats? R.H: A.S: Yeah, Harbour? Blair Harbour, and of course the garage isn't there any more. We used to keep it there and one day I went to turn the motor on and it wouldn't work. So, I went into him and I said, "What's wrong with the motor, I can't get the truck going". It turned out somebody had stolen the engine. R.H: Who paid for the gas? A.S: We didn't, that came out of the money that we took into Mrs. Dawson, that had the store. R.H: And of course, gas was rationed then during the war, was it rationed for you? A.S: No, no. R.H: Of gas? A.S: No. R.H: A.S: R.H: I don't recollect any rationing. Were you ever involved with the Salvation Army? Oh, the Sally Army, no I never was really. Can you remember what Douglas Hospital was like when it first opened? Was the area built up? { A.S: Oh, no. It was quite small, it was small, you know for a hospital. (11) �It's been built terrifically since. R.H: ( So, there's been a lot of additions added on since it was built? A.S: Absolutely. R.H: A.S: Was there many homes around there? No, there wasn't and there was no wartime houses when I came here. It was all vacant ground and when I came here, Oakes Park was just a piece of ground and then when Harry Oakes was knighted; Sir Harry Oakes, he gave the ground to the Town, for Town use so that they couldn't build houses or anything on it. To go to the other end of town, you had to go up Gilmore Road, through Jennet Street and down Lewis Street. Most people used to cross over the railroad tracks and then they built Central Avenue right through, otherwise that wasn't there. R.H: A.S: From here to the North End ... From Gilmore? From Gilmore to the South End rather, to the South End was not called Central Avenue. R.H: Do you know what it was called? A.S: R.H: { Yes, I lived on it. Did you ever live anywhere else? Is this your first house? A.S: No, we lived in the house right across from Catherine Street: It was Kincardine Street and I still live on it: It was the first house we came to and my sister-in-law rented it for me, rented it for us rather. So, we lived there and then we moved to Gilmore Road to open the store. R.H: A.S: We built where we are ... That was the bakery on Gilmore Road? Yes, we only rented that and we wanted our own so we built where we are now. Of course it was much bigger and that's why I'm so near the corner. on the corner. I don't know if you know my house but it's right There were no sidewalks or anything so it took quite a bit from me walls. R.H: So, you had that house built? A.S: Of course it was much bigger than it is. It had the bakery around the side, but that's all been pulled down. When we lived upstairs, we had the store all downstairs. R.H: A.S: How long were you in business? Oh, quite a few years, all during the Depression. they came and asked my hubby to go up there. I couldn't manage on my own. When Fleet started; Soi I soon learned So, we did without the bakery and (12) �I managed the store and he went up to Fleet. After he got working at Fleet and after all this cruddy business, you know. . . so, we closed. ( R.H: Getting back to the hospital, do you remember some of the doctors who were there? A.S: Well, there was Dr. Streets, Dr. Mulvaney and Dr. Derbyshire .. . I can't think of any others. R.H: Have you any idea where the money came from for the additions that were built on to the hospital? Did it come from any private organizations or clubs? A.S: Well, at the time the auxiliary started, we started a little coffee shop. I used to serve there. We didn't make much money really but otherwise, I don't know who paid for it. R.H: A.S: When did the little coffee shop start at the hospital? Oh, that was started some years ago, I wouldn't really remember. I was the chairman. . . we had started to show the women first aid and nursing and things like that. So, we used to meet over here where the women used to board. They had all left, it didn't pay off after things got going. They all moved here or something. So, we used to meet there, well, they had a fire and we had a Judy, ( what we call a Judy. . . R.H: A.S: What's a Judy? That's a full size women, a figure. know. R.H: A.S: They called them Judy's, you So, we had her in bed, do you know what I mean? Oh yeah, you were using this for your training, right? Yeah, training. They called them Judy's. Well, anyway, we had Judy in bed and I only live across the street and when the fire started, I ran over there. I was running inside and the fireman tried to grab me but I got past him. He said, "Where the h--- are you going?" I didn't answer him, I hauled Judy out of the bed and came home with her. I carried her home in my arms, she was as big as you. Anyway, I took it up to the hospital and it disappeared. I think that it was sold to one of the salesman, in fact, I'm almost sure it was. R.H: Was this Judy used for first aid then? A.S: R.H: ( Yes, to show them what to do. This was a mannequin you used? A.S: Yes, a mannequin but we called it a Judy. (13) �R.H: A.S: ( So, this fire was in Winston Hall then, the hostel? Yes, over here. R.H: A.S: R.H: A.S: Did it burn down? Well, it didn't burn down but they pulled it down afterwards. Did the Fire Department have a lot of e quipment then? No, they didn't. When we first came here, the Town had no e quipment. My hubby, somebody had offered him... to sell him, he wouldn't get it for nothing, a billiard table. The Town came along with a bit of a machine to clear the snow and I'm telling you, we had snow in those days when I first came here. When they knew about him having this billiard table, they said, "Could they come in and play billiards". My gosh, instead of doing their work, they were playing billiards all day. R.H: There was nobody to watch them, the Town employees. Well, I think I've just about covered everything, is there anything else you would like to tell me? Do you know who started the Red Cross? A.S: The Red Cross? It was started by Mrs. Oscar Teal and Mrs. Tyrrell, Ted Tyrrell's wife and myself and Mrs. Tyrrell was.. . I'm an awful one for names lately. ( R.H: The Red Cross went way back and it was around for a long time wasn't it, during the First World War? A.S: Yes, I worked in the 'munitions during the First World War. It was in Aintree in Liverpool, where the racetrack is. during the war. They closed it They said, "All young women should either go in the Land Army or go in 'munitions". I had rather a strict father and he said, "You're not going in the Land Army," so, my sister and I went in 'munitions. and cordite. R.H: A.S: We were filling 6 pounders with T. N. T. We used to see the German planes. . . not planes. . . What kind of things were they, what did they do? They were planes, well, they weren't planes, they were bigger. . . o h gosh. . . what were they? W e used t o see them, I could have shot them down. over. They used to sound the alarm when these were coming They used to sound the alarm and then we'd all go in the shelters. R.H: Did they have the Red Cross then? A.S: No. R.H: So, you didn't get involved with it 'til you came to Canada? (14) �A.S: Not until I came here to Fort Erie. I was doing some work for Ramsey MacDonald in his baby clinic and I was telling you... ( R.H: Did you have any medical background for working there at the baby clinic? A.S: Well, not at that time. R.H: Where was this baby clinic? A.S: I'll tell you. Before I was married, I worked for a doctor on Wimpole Street, a heart specialist. While working there, I gained a little experience but nothing to speak of. I'm not going to boast about that but all the notables used to come there and all we had to do was go outside and blow a whistle for a taxi. It would be there in a couple of minutes and Bob Hope lived across the street. was born there, Wimpole Street, London. He I wish I could meet him now. R.H: You mentioned working for some doctor and he had to do an operation on the kitchen table, where was that? A.S: Oh, that was in England. Yes, that was the Ramsey MacDonald who bought this old hotel and then they used to take tonsils and adenoids from the children on a Monday. ( On Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and even Friday, we had four different schools come and we used to cut off their lousy hair. R.H: When you say lousy hair, you mean the children had lice in their hair? A.S: Yes. We used to cut off their hair, honestly it used to sicken me really, although we did it. You'd see nits on the hair, all down the hair and we used to send a note home with them, telling what to do. They-were fold- to wash their hair in hot vinegar water and that used to kill them. You never hear of that today but that's what we used to tell them. We used to cut their hair off, real short, when they came in. R.H: I didn't know this happened in England, I though you were talking about Dr. Derbyshire and how you worked for him. A.S: Did I guess wrong? Well, I was telling you about the lady when I first came here. She had appendicitis and I called Dr. Derbyshire and he came across at night and he said to me, "Could you go over and see her," and I said to him... you know, she was telling me about the pain she ( had and I said, "You might have appendicitis," and so I said, "I'll (15) �"I haven't got one," she said. That's how I got to know Dr. Derbyshire, he had just come here and he always sent me a card every Christmas. R.H: So, you sent for him that night to help that lady? A.S: Yes, I called him and we were always friends after that. his second wife you know and of course he's dead now. This is Did I tell you I worked for Dr. Collins? R.H: A.S: You worked for Dr. Collins? As secretary for a time, a short time. He had a wife too, a very nice person and he got in with this other woman and he put his wife in a home. I don't think she needed that, I think it was through him that she got a little upset but anyway she died and he married this other one. R.H: A.S: Was Dr. Streets a good doctor? Yes, Dr. Streets was a good doctor. He lived on Central Avenue on the corner house. R.H: You mentioned someone named Andy Benner who owned a store, can you tell me about him? A.S: He owned a store across the railway tracks in Ridgeway. He told me when he was a boy, he used to hide in the ditches when the Fenians came. They came over from Buffalo. He also told me, that Fort Erie when he lived in it, was bigger than Buffalo, when he was a youngster. They used to bring the grain over from Buffalo to the mills to be ground. When I first came here, old Mr. Barnhart had lived here for years and he told me that they took all our topsoil from 'round here, over the Peace Bridge to make the park on the right hand side of the Peace Bridge. R.H: What about this Andy Benner, did he tell you any more about the Fenian Raid? A.S: No, he was only a boy when it happened and they used to hide in the ditches 'til they all went by. They were only youngsters and they heard them coming. R.H: What kind of store did he have? A.S: I think he had a grocery store. as you cross over the tracks. It was on the left hand side just He had it there when I first came here. R.H: Now, you got an invitation to attend the Queen's Tea Party or.. . was it a luncheon? (16) �A.S: Yes. We had to wear hats and gloves and no cameras. I have a niece who lives very close, Henley on the Thames and so she called ( me up ••• I went to my sisters first and stayed there for two nights and then my niece called me up and said, "Auntie, I want you to come down here and stay, you'd be near the palace". "Yes, we are coming down". So, I said, She had a very large home, I'm the poor one in the family but they had sold it and I'd never been to her new home. So, we went down there to stay and when we got to Paddington Station, she said, "Call me and I'll drive down there and pick you up". Well, there were two phone booths together ..• I was allowed to take somebody, I took my daughter. said, "I'll call •.. ". So, my daughter She was going to call my niece, you see. she put the money in and it kept coming out all the time. there was a man on the other phone talking. So, Well, So, I said, "We'll wait 'til he's finished, maybe there's something wrong with it". Well, just then a girl came up with a big bag and she said, "I'm sorry, that phone's out of order, "she said, "I'm just going to fix it". I've never known of a woman going out fixing phones before. So anyway, we stood there and when this fellow came out, he said, "I'm sorry ( I've kept you". I said, "Oh, that's alright, but she can use the phone". So, he said, "What number do you want?" number, I had given it to my daughter. and he couldn't get any answer. So, she told him the She told him the number So he said, "Where are you going?" and we told him where we were going and he said, "Come on, I'll take you". His wife was with him and they were the nicest couple you could wish to meet. He took us right up to the darn door. I said, "Listen, I don't want to put you out," and he said, "I've just been talking with my sister, she's supposed to come here and meet us. We've got to wait two and a half hours for her at the station". She'd missed the train or something and was getting a later train. Well anyway, when we went all dressed up, our hats on, to the party, my niece took us down to the station at Henley. We went on the train at Paddington and when we got out at Paddington Statin, I put me hand up and called a taxi. So he came up and he said, "Where to madam?" and my daughter said, "Buckingham Palace". { up. He said, "I didn't need to ask;" 'cause we were all dressed So anyway, he said, "I hate going there like the plague". (17) So �I said, "For what reason," and he said, "You can never drive up there-there's so many people". "Oh, don't worry about that," I said, '"Cause we got this to give you". ( [It was a special pass] When we got there, he drove right into the front of the palace you see. R.H: A.S: So, did you go right in the front gates? Yes, and we had to show our pass, our invitation. We got two invitations, that one and another one to go in and we had to show our invitations. R.H: A.S: What was the party like? It was lovely, I enjoyed every minute of it. The day was beautiful, the weather was so hot, unusual for England. All the guards were there and the guard walked up with us and showed us where to go. We went into the palace and we weren't allowed through the main rooms but we went through all the corridors. as wide as rooms. They had beautiful full length pictures, lovely paintings, portraits and different things. and out the other side, down about all carpeted. at the back. They were 15 We went through there big steps, big long steps, The band was playing all afternoon in the bandshell They had a big place for all the eats. They had chairs and tables out, lovely wide table with four chairs 'round each table. And you helped yourself to the food and you brought it back to ( the table. R.H: A.S: What kind of food did they have? Everything, you mention it and it was there. great. It was absolutely The Queen and them, they had a little place on their own where we could see them eating at the side. It was really lovely 'cause before they came out the band struck up 'God save the Queen' and the Queen Mother came out and then the Queen and Phillip, the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and ten other celebrities, I don't know who they were. them. But Phillip, did he ever laugh with Oh, he was having big laughs, I don't know what they were talking about. R.H: A.S: Was the Queen Mother as beautiful as ever? Yes, she was lovely dressed, beautifully dressed. good. She looked very Everything went well and we toured all the gardens and they have a lake there at the back. and one of the •.. We were sitting on a seat I was tired from walking around and one of the security men came up, they all had tailcoats on and tall hats, came (18) �up and he said, "Excuse me madam but time is up". We were about the last ones there, although there were two or three others I could see around. ( Oh, I said, "Thank-you," and we came out and we had to go back through the palace again to get out. When we went out he said, "Where is your car madam?" and I said, "Oh, we had a taxi, and we'll have to have a taxi back". He said, "Just a minute," he goes outside and he raised his hand, and up came a taxi. We got in the taxi and went back home. R.H: A.S: That was quite an experience for you, wasn't it? It certainly was. Many a time I only lived 15 minutes from Buckingham Palace and I never ever thought I'd be inside of it. Then we got to my niece's, she had a big home where my sister lives, up north, and they had sold it and moved down there. They had only lived in this new house three years and I'd never been there. Anyway, I'd been up to the other one but when I got to this one, I was amazed, they had the biggest home. They had two maids, live-in maids and they had a big mercedes car at our dis posal. in Buckingham Palace again. It was like being We were going to stay two or three days but she insisted and we were there for nine days 'til the finish. ( They went golfing every day, her and her husband and they had another car there and they had a station wagon. use that for their golf clubs and that. mercedes if we wanted to go out. just say, "We'll be ready for 10 They used to The maid could use the If we wanted to go out, we'd o'clock or 11, pick us up at 6 o'clock," and so forth. R.H: (Mrs. Staddon is showing me some photographs) Is that Princess Margaret in the photograph? A.S: Yes, and that's my nephew. R.H: (Her nephew is in the photograph with Princess Margaret) What's his name? A.S: R.H: Peter, Peter Kline. I want to thank you so much for doing the interview Mrs. Staddon, it's been a pleasure to meet you. A.S: It's my pleasure. (19) I really enjoyed it, thank-you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Annie Staddon Location The location of the interview. Mrs. Staddon's home at 333 Central Ave, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Staddon, Anne Description An account of the resource Provided here is Annie Staddon's interview. She discusses such topics as: Peace Bridge Stores North end Churches St. Paul's Anglican Church Fleet Factories and industry Douglas Memorial Hospital Politics and government Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 20, 1985 1980s 1985 churches Douglas Memorial hospital factories and industry Fleet Fort Erie north end Oral history peace bridge politics and government restaurants and bars st. paul's anglican church transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/f9a5dc5077da69b8c81ac938bb9dfea2.pdf 5c53bb628812ec45231ae539a61c084f PDF Text Text ������������ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Diana Matthews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Al Spear Location The location of the interview. Fort Erie Public Library Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Spear, Al Description An account of the resource Provided here is Al Spear's interview. He discusses such topic as: Farming Schools North end The Depresion Ferries Churches Buffalo Fleet Factories and industry Horton Steel Bootlegging Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 1985 1980s 1985 Buffalo churches factories and industry ferries Fleet Fort Erie Great Depression Horton Steel north end Oral history schools transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/7aa019dd6b01f512de565f23a32cc56a.pdf 49630fc3c6dc7f9ef77b196cd469148b PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer interviewing Mr. Jesse Sider in his home at 3626 Bowen Road on August 12, 1985. S.R: Hellow Mr. Sider and how are you? J.S: Oh, I'm fine. S.R: What is your date of birth? J.S: January the 7th, 1909. S.R: Where were you born? J.S: � was born in Bertie Township, east of Stevensville. S.R: And what would the street be? J.S: It would be on Acadia now, where my brothers still live, on the Sider farm. S.R: Have you lived in the area all your life then? J.S: Yes. As I have told you previously, I was fifteen months old when I went to live with my grandmother who was on a farm west of Stevensville. That farm was bought in 1834, and was in the family, the same family until I sold it in 1972. So it was in the family for all those years and it was bought for a hundred and twenty-five ( pounds. Apparently we had ... we didn't have dollars in those days. S.R: Would you know how much a hundred and twenty-five pounds was? J.S: Well, we used to say when I was a boy, about five dollars a pound, but it isn't that much now. But I think that's what we used to figure, five dollars a pound. S.R: Would you know who your family bought it from? J.S: From a Haun. His name was Haun. Someone had got it from the Crown and had cleared eleven acres and that gave him the right to have the title to it. You could get land from the Crown and you had to improve it, every year clear so much, for two or three years and then you could get a deed for it. As soon as he got his deed, then he wanted to sell it. He sold it to my great, great grandfather, who bought it for my great grandfather. There were no buildings on it and just eleven acres cleared. The rest was all bush. S.R: How large was it? J.S: The original one was a hundred acres. About two years later they bought another ten acres, and a few years later another twenty-five. So that made it up to about a hundred and thirty-five acres. And ( 1) �then some years later another ten acres was bought. That was my ( uncle that bought that. S.R: What kind of farming was done on it? J.S: Oh, we had mixed farming, wheat and hay and cattle. We had some cows, made butter, and had a route in Fort Erie and sold... we had about three hundred hens usually, and sold eggs, and sold butter. We had som.e sheep, and we'd slaughter the lambs in the fall and sell them on the route in Fort Erie, and we had some pigs. We had a little bit of everything. S.R: What about the sheep, did you make your own wool? J.S: They used to. Later on, one time I had three hundred sheep myself, and we sold the wool. As far back as I can remember most of the wool was sold, but there would be some saved for ... to take away and get carded and what not, to use either for ourselves or the neighbours. But, by in large ... we used to wash the sheep before we clipped them. We used to take them into a pond and... it was quite an ordeal. We would go in the pond and the sheep were forced into the water, and then they worked the wool with their hands and washed it and got it clean. Then it would take about a week for the wool to dry, right on the sheeps back, before you clipped them. Then you got rid of a lot of the dirt and chaff and stuff from the wool. When we started selling it to... we usually sold it to the Wool Growers. We never washed it or anything, just throw it in. They bought it as raw wool, just the way it was clipped off the sheep. S.R: Was it a family project or, for things like that, and when it came plowing time, or harvesting time, did you have to hire peop_le in? J.S: Well, my uncle wasn't a very strong man. He only weighed about 1 10, 125-30 pounds and he would... until I was old enough; he would sometimes have a Bernardo Boy and sometimes he would hire neighbour, young fellows who were... when they were eighteen, to come and plow for him or something, with the horses, until I was old enough to do it myself. Then, we didn't keep sometimes we had a hired ••• man anyway, but not as a rule. I usually done the plowing with the horses... ( S.R: What kind of equipment was there? J.S: Oh, a binder, and the hay we cut with a mower, raked it and had ( 2) �a hay loader. We'd throw ( it into the barn •.. loose, took it off the wagon with a hay fork, then put it in the mow, off the ground. The wheat, we would usually haul it in in machines and put it in the mow, and we'd get a threshing machine in and thresh it out in the barn. We had a big shed in the back of the barn and you could throw it inside. With the oats we would do the same. S.R: What do you mean by threshing? J.S: Well, we got an old steam engine and one of these big threshing machines. We'd set that up in the barn running on a pully •.. S.R: I don't know what threshing is. J.S: You don't know what threshing is. Oh, separating the wheat from the, the grain from the straw. The grain came out of the spout. You pitched it in at the front of the machine and then the straw would come out the back and the grain come out an elevator at the side... S.R: Do you remember who operated this threshing machine? J.S: Oh yeah, there was different ones. We used to get, there was a Mr. Cable we used to get sometimes, a Mr. Barnhart, Ethan Barnhart ( and later Leroy Winger took it over from him. Then Leroy Minor had a machine. He threshed a few years for us. Mr. Montegue threshed for us for a number of years. There were several others around. S.R: Montegue. Yeah. He's still living. He has a home down in St. Catharines someplace. Leroy... is still living. Leroy Winger's still living too, I guess. S.R: You mentioned these other machines, were they hand powered, horse powered, steam powered? J.S: ·The binder was when I was a boy S.R: What did the binder do? J.S: Cuts the grain and ties it in sheaves ••• was pulled by horses. ••• then later we got a new one and we used the tractor and pulled it with the tractor. It was driven by the pullwheel of the binder on the ground. It drove the machine and you just pulled it. S.R: ( What years did tractors come in? J.S: What years? Oh, I think I got my first one in the late '30s sometime. I'm not sure which. (3) �S.R: You mentioned about the plow. Did you have to use the hand plow? J.S: I used a one furrow walking plow... two horses to it. S.R: A one furrow walking plow? J.S: Yes, with the handles so you could go and walk behind. S.R: The ones that are shaped like a J.S: ( Yeah, a one furrow plow. I started when I was 15, plowing. We V, like a wishbone? farmed, I thought, quite a bit for those days. I used to figure on plowing at least 40 or 50 acres every fall. S.R: How long did it take to do an acre? J.S: Well, I figured if I didn't, wasn't in too big of a hurry, I usually did about an acre a day. S.R: So it took a month and a half or so? J.S: To do the plowing, yeah. Then in the spring we'd put most of that to oats and maybe have a field for corn. S.R: So, did you have your own feed then, for your animals? J.S: Pretty much, we tried to. We had to sometimes buy some extra to suppliment it, but by in large we had our own. ( S.R: Where would you have got the extra? J.S: Oh, from different places. The Maple Leaf Milling Company, Mr. Cooper run that in Welland. He used to bring it if you'd buy a three ton load, over right to your farm, of course. But, every once in a while we'd get a little bit in, but mostly we got it from the mills in town. It was Chester Beam at that time and his son, we just called him Daddy. I don't know really what his name was, It was always Daddy Beam. We usually worked through him. We never bought too much from Morningstar. They come in a little later. S.R: Who did you sell your produce, your meat, your wool too? J.S: Well, the wool went to Canadian Co8perative Wool Growers in my day. Our other produce we sold retail. S.R: That means straight to the people? J.S: Yes ••• meat, eggs, butter ••• we never sold cream to the creamery. Later on then we started selling milk. We sold milk to Lichtenberger's Dairy in Fort Erie, but in their home up until that time. When the Second World War came along and they demanded coupons to buy your meat and your ••• your butter maybe too. That kind of bothered us a little. We kind of give up the meat business at that time. (4) �S.R: J.S: . Why would coupons bother you? Well, you could only have so much, it was rationed, and they'd give you coupon books and we'd have to collect the coupons for the produce we sold. You could do it but we didn't like that, so we quit. Then Roy Fretz bought our beef, Girve's father. Before that we used to sell •.• our beef, it was mostly pork and lamb and chicken that we sold on the route, and we had many beef. We usually sold it to the butcher. It used to be Harve Fretz and then Roy Fretz, they were brothers. Harve, when he quit he sold it to Roy, and later when Noyse took it over we sold to him too... Noyse, ReulJQ,n Noyse. Harve Fretz was there first, then when he quit he went into car sales, in the selling business in Port Colborne, and his brother Roy took it over. Then when Roy quit Reuben Noyse took it over. It was all the same shop. S.R: Where was this? J.S: Up the road here about a mile. He had trucks... he would sell it then, off to the people. He'd run around through Stevensville and Fort Erie, and sell off of the back of the truck. S.R: You had mentioned Lichtenberger's Dairy, where was that? J.S: Well, it started on the farm on Sunset Drive. Then later they built that on Jarvis Street, that dairy. Then I guess that closed up. S.R: What effects did the Depression have on the farm and the family? J.S: Well, I was married in '3 1, just the beginning of the Depression. Since it was a family farm, and ••• I started ..• after I quit school I worked for my uncle for wages. I guess you'd call it wages. I got $200 a year for the first ••• that's seven years. Then when I got married, we farmed on a half and half basis. We worked together and divided everything half and half. Then a little later I got two thirds, then finally when he was ready to quit, I took over. That made it that I didn't have ••• never got in debt for the farm. I didn't make much money but we always had ••• we always got aiong. S.R: So you never found it that difficult during the Depression years? J.S: Well, it was rough, but it was ••• like I say, it was a man that had debts was the ones that were in trouble. Since we didn't have any interest to pay, we never had much money but we had our own produce and did well with what we had. (5) �S.R: Did many people lose their farms? J.S: I don't know as too many of them lost their farms in those days. They didn't ... they farmed different than now. Like I said, today if a man wants to farm he has to borrow probably $ 100,000 to $ 150,000 or $200,000 to start. Well, then he's got interest overhead, and if he don't make it he loses it. But we worked on a cash system. We got along with what we had, and if we had money to buy then we bought it and if we didn't then we didn't buy it. S.R: _D o you remember the prices of your produce? J.S: Yes, they varied down through the years. S.R: The youngest you can remember, like when you were 10, around there. J.S: Well, my grandfather, I think my grandfather always used to say, it he could have wheat in the bin and kept it 'til spring, he figured he could get a dollar a bushel for it, for wheat. That was years and years ago. I think there was a time when you couldn't get a dollar a bushel for it, but then again, it would get up to over two dollars a bushel. The thing that helped us through the Depression as much as anything was that we sold our produce to the retail trade. If... that was quite a bit better than selling it to a wholesaler. S.R: Or bartering with it at a store? J.S: Yeah. It helped us during this Depression that we got the retail price for our produce that we sold. S.R: Do you remember the price of milk, eggs, butter, say during the Depression or before? J.S: Eggs were, lots of times 40¢ a dozen, and butter the same. I used to say if eggs got up to 70¢ a dozen, that was too dear and people wouldn't buy them . S. R: Now it's twice that. J.S: If we ••• I had a neighbour who in later years sold his, sold their eggs to consumers for 50¢ a dozen year 'round, it never changed. But we changed. We sometimes would have to borrow a few eggs to meet our customers needs. So we tried to stay pretty much with the market price. But like I say, if it got up to 80¢, I usually stopped at about 70¢. Then if it got down to 30¢, I kept them maybe up 5 or 10¢ a dozen. I just knocked the highest off and the lowest (6) �off occasionally. I don't know how cheap butter was. It was around ( 40¢ I remember quite right. S.R: You had mentioned Bernardo Boys, could you explain what a Bernardo Boy is? J.S: Well, they were... the Bernardo Home is in England. They picked up boys off the street, or boys whose parents weren't capable of providing for them, or... a lot of them seemed to be from a mother whose husband died and she remarried. A lot of them were drinking men, the second ones, and they didn't want them around, and Dr. Bernardo would take these boys in and then he brought them out to Canada by the boatload. They were treated quite pathetic with some of them and if they got in a good home it wasn't so bad. If they got in with a man that abused them it was terrible. S.R: Some people might want them just for the labour, right? J.S: Yes, that's what they were. They had to work three years for $ 100. They would come when they were, oh, eight or ten years old. You had to send them to school for a certain number of months out of the year. Uncle Andrew used to get them and. .. One was Fred ( Massey who died just a few years ago in Port Colborne. He was at our farm awhile, and he left awhile, and he came back again. Then they had... Alfred Davis was there for one year and an Arthur Beaumont, whose still living, was there for one year. And I was quite a small boy, I just... I remember them. Alfred Davis was there in 19 15, and I think maybe Arthur Beaumont was there in, say ' 17, and maybe Davis in between. They weren't paid a lot of money but they had a home and they... if the people treated them nice, why-it wasn't so bad, but some of them got pretty bad beatings I understand. S.R: Could you tell me what school you attended and where it was located? J.S: I went to No. S.R: Where is that? J.S: The corner of our farm up there, the corner of Fox Road and Point 8 Bertie. Abino. S.R: Is it still there? J.S: Yes, it's not used as a school of course. The building was sold and there's someone living in it now. (7) �( S.R: Would you know approximately when it was built and when it was sold, or closed? J.S: Well, it, it, I can't... I think the date was on the school. S.R: Did your father or grandfather go to that school? J.S: My grandfather went there what little he went. He didn't go very much. My mother went there, and my children went there. S.R: About what year did it close? Would you know that? J.S: In the '50s I suppose. Abby (his wife) was there in the '40s. S.R: .So, most likely it was in the '50s then? J.S: Yeah, I suppose in the late '50s maybe. S.R: Would you know who bought it? J.S: Oh, Howard Bertran had it for awhile. I guess he sold it again. I don't know whose got it now. S.R: Could you describe your school, from your earliest recollections, what it was like, and were there any changes made into it, or. .. ? J.S: No, the school was much the same as long as I can remember. It was a one room brick, red brick school, and about ... when I went there was between 20 and 30 students, grades 1-8, and all in one ( room with one teacher. It was heated with natural gas most of the time. There was an arrangement I understand between the Provincial Gas Company and the ... when they came in there and started drilling for gas, that they would supply the school houses with gas free... until the gas got a little scarce, they then kind of made it sometimes that you could hardly get enough to keep it warm. But, as a whole they done pretty good. We had free gas. We didn't have very good heaters. We just had log burners and box stove type of things. S.R: So then the fire just kept the logs burning then? J.S: A log burner is a pipe, about that long these were, with holes that... little holes all along, and you turned it on outside and lit it and it would burn out those holes. They were not used in later years, but they used to use them. They had one of these on each side of the stove. Well, I don't think it was very economical. They didn't get the full benefit of the gas I don't think. S.R: Would you remember your teachers? J.S: Yes. I don't have much recollection of the first one. There was (8) �Miss Ball. I don't know what her first name was. I had a Miss Swenton. .. ( Mr. McNiece was the inspector. The one that really was . I think I had this one for, in grade 5 and 6, a Miss Brown. She was really a wonderful teacher. As far as I know she is living yet. She married a Mr. Webber. The last I knew she lived up near Kitchener, Waterloo. But, she was a very good teacher. Then I had Miss Staples after her . S.R: What made Miss Brown so special? J.S: Well, she was just a good teacher. S.R: What kinds of things did they use for dicipline? J.S: Discipline? It depended on the teacher. S.R: Some examples. J.S: The strap was always available. S.R: And the parents condoned it then? J.S: Yeah, sure. I was told at home that if I got the strap at school then I'd get another one when I got home. S.R: If you got the strap you never told your parents then, right? J.S: Yeah. I tried to keep it from them. Now, a strap should always ( be in the schools. S.R: What kinds of things were taught in the schools? J.S: 'Reading and 'riting and 'rithmetic, grammar, hygiene. I guess that's .. . spelling, which I didn't appreciate. S.R: You were never a good speller? J.S: No... history, geography. We had a full line I think. S.R: So more or less what's taught today? J.S: Yeah, more or less. Not quite... It was junior and senior at that time, you didn't stay... you had primer first, and junior first, and senior first and junior second and senior second, junior third and senior third, junior fourth and senior fourth. That's what they were called when I went to school. Coming back to these teachers, some of them kept good order and some of them didn't. This Miss Brown, she always had good order in the schoolroom and never used the strap very much. I wouldn't say she never did, but very rarely. But, she knew how to motivate the kids and they all liked her. S.R: Can you remember any interesting stories from when you went to school? Something that might have happened at school with you and your classmates or something... most people have a few (9) �stories that they can remember from their school days. J.S: I can tell you a better one from when my children went there. S.R: Like what? J.S: They hung a boy one day. S.R: And he died? J.S: No, he didn't die, but they had him off the ground up in a tree. S.R: What was the reasoning for this? J.S: Oh, he was a tartar and he was bugging the kids all of the time and they ganged up on him and they strung him up. S.R: But he was okay? J.S: Well, the teacher found out quick enough and got him down, it didn't kill him, but he.. . I don't suppose they'd have left him die either. They had him hung up. No, I never liked school very good myself. S.R: So you only went as far as that school, you never went to high school? J.S: I went to Messiah College for six months after I was through school here. S.R: ( Then that was enough? J.S: Yep. S.R: Are you or have you been a member of a church? J.S: Yes, I'm a member since I was a boy, and still am. S.R: What church would that be? J.S: Brethren in Christ S.R: Which Brethren in Christ? J.S: Bertie, the one on the Church Road. S.R: Would you know any of the history of the church or any changes . in the actual building itself and property? J.S: That church is 110 years old, the building. It was built in 1875. We have no pictures of the original church. In 1911 there was a wing put on each side, out. We have pictures that were taken after the new wings were put on, but we don't have any pictures of the original. We have had an artist use her imagination and how part of the church was not changed at that time, but the wings were put on. Some think that this isn't a good, that it isn't the way it was, but I think it is pretty much. Some said, "There had to be a chimney on it though", and it probably did. I don't know where it was. At 1911 there was a wing put on each side, and then several (10) �times we've made... they built on the back, and they've built on the front. There is plans I guess in the shaping now to again do some remodelling and changing on the building. First it was designed for horses and carriages, the first one, and the platform along the church was high enough that people could step into the buildings from the platform on the front porch or the side porch. There were porches on the side, narrow ones about four feet wide, and all across the front. S.R: .Were there any other buildings around the church, like for the horses? J.S: There were sheds. They had a row of sheds that went on three sides of the church all the way around. Those were for horses. They of course are all torn down now for the parking lot there. But they had mangers in them and the horses could be tied up and be blanketed and fed there. S.R: Do you remember any little tricks you had in keeping warm in the horse and buggy in the wintertime? J.S: Oh yeah, take bricks along, heat bricks in the oven, and put them in the sleigh box with straw on the bottom of the box. Only in the winters of course because summers you didn't need any heat to keep warm. Then you could ... if you got cold riding you could jump off and run along behind. You'd get warm. S.R: Do you recall any special events that the church had to offer for the family? J.S: Oh, your annual Evangelistic meetings which run for two weeks and sometimes longer. On one occasion I think it went for six weeks. It has a service every night. S.R: Were people able to attend that every night? J.S: Yeah, they packed the place out. S.R: That's surprising considering the distance and the farming and all that kind of stuff. J.S: Well, in winters you didnt' have all ... S.R: Oh, they were only in the wintertime? J.S: Yeah, we always had them in the winter, and the young fellows in the home, they would come there for a place to go and something to do. There wouldn't be all these other things to do. The young fellows would line the inside braces here. They didn't want to come (11) �in and hear the service too much, but they wanted to be there and ( they'd peek in t he windows here. S.R: Why would they want to be there? Was there food served afterward or to meet girls or...? J.S: No, no, no... well probably. One fellow said they could always take their girls there and there was no charge. It was entertainment to take their girls there. If they wanted to take their girls out someplace they'd go to revival meetings. S.R: Would you remember any prominent members of the church or past pastors? J.S: Yeah, I can remember all of them from my time. S.R: Could you tell me their names? J.S: The oldest one I can remember was Asa Bearss and Nicholas Michael. Then following them was Asa's son Girvin who was elected to the ministry, and he is grandfather of Ross Bearss. Do you know him in Ridgeway, and Leo? Then Albert Riegle, he run the feedmill. They weren't salaried, they had another occupation which they did along with their preaching. Then Warren Winger, Jess Winger, ( Alvin Winger, and Will Charleton later on then, James Sider. Bert Sherk come in after Girvin Bearss. Him and Girvin were together. S.R: Could you tell me some changes in the Brethren in Christ that have happened over the years? I heard at one time you weren't even allowed to wear a tie because it was considered an unnecessary adornment. You didn't need it to keep warm, or you didn't need it to hold your clothes up or anything like that, it was just there for decoration. J.S: I never wore a tie in my life. I am not happy with all the changes that have come, but they have come. We now.. . our ministers are no longer elected by ballot vote. If we have a young fellow who feels he wants to become a minister he then goes to school and studies for the ministry. S.R: How would he become a minister of that church? J.S: Well, he's then out on the market and he's available for. .. anyone can offer them a position, and if they take it why-... if the congregation ( accepts them for five years ... They used to be in for life, but now it's ... at the end of five years the congregation has the privilege (12) �of if they wanted his services continued or not. If we want to change ( a minister then we invite a minister that we think we would like and then it's up to him if he accepts or rejects. If he is satisfied where he is and doesn't want to change, you just say, no he's not interested. If he is interested then he has to turn in his resignation where he is and then he can work out a suitable deal. S.R: Is there anything more you'd like to add about your church? J.S: No, I think I'm very healthy with my church. I mean, the church has a lot to offer people. The changes have come which have come I suppose in every church, maybe not as markedly as in ours, but there has been changes in all forms of life and institutions. Over the last 50, 60 or 70 years there has been quite a drastic change. It's affecting the church. I think the church is still my life. S.R: So there is nothing else you would like to mention on tape then about the church before I go onto another topic? J.S: S.R: ( I don't think so? Who is the first political representative that you remember? J.S: German... a lawyer in Welland by the name of German, that's all I know. He's the Dominion man for as far back as I can remember. S.R: What did a Dominion man do? J.S: Well, he was in Ottawa. S.R: Oh, representing the area here? J.S: Yeah. We didn't have as many representatives at that time I suppose as they do now. S.R: What about reeves? J.S: Charlie Berger was the Deputy Reeve. Gorham was Reeve for a long time. I don't know how long ago that is, time gets away from me. Sometimes you don't even know what time it is. But here again this comes in. Our church in the early days did not vote. I have never voted in my life, not to this day. S.R: J.S: Yeah. S.R: Why would that be? J.S: ( Just because of religion? Our forefathers came to this country for religious reasons. One reason was that they didn't want to take up arms. We were always told in the early days that that was part of the deal. You did ( 13) �have exemption notice of military service as long as you didn't vote. ( The young fellows say now that that isn't right, and they still have exemption of military service even if they do vote. I'm from the school that thinks that if we don't want to fight for our government, we shouldn't have any part of it. I would lean towards the Liberals but it doesn't make any difference to me if it's Conservative or Liberal or what it is that's in power, I'm just as happy with one as the other. S.R: What are some of the changes that have taken place around Stevensville? J.S: The roads are the most changed I think, of anything. S.R: Please exlain. J.S: When I was a boy, when we wanted to attend our, to run our route in Fort Erie, I remember when we put chains on our cars and from our place went north to the Netherby Road, through the mud. You'd get out there and then take the chains off. From there there was a stone road. Now, my uncle could tell the time when that wasn't stoned... because all I can remember is that Netherby Road was ( stone, Stevensville and New Germany were stone. But I remember when these other roads were Mud. The farmers had the privilege of working off their road tax. We would take our team of horses with a dump wagon, dump box on the wagon, and go down to, with the horses, go down to one of the stone quarries, which were in the same place practically as they are now. We would make about two trips a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, and bring a load of stone and dump it on the road. We had, they'd maybe have, oh, 15 or 18 or 20 teams hauling stone and a couple men there levelling it. They'd try to dump it so they didn't have to shovel it much. We made a narrow road just wide enough for one car down the center. We put coarse stone on the bottom, and they'd level that, and then put a little finer stone on top of that, and then a little finer yet, then dust, we called it, on top. Building these country roads... that was the way they were stoned first. We all, most farmers I think, tried to draw enough to pay their taxes. They were given so much road tax and they could work it off with their horses, take ( their horses and draw stone so many days to pay your road tax. As a boy I drew stone for the roads up and down the street from the quarry down on Ridge there. I made two trips a day, one in (14) �( the morning and one in the afternoon. S.R: Were there any newspapers in Stevensville or Ridgeway? J.S: Yeah, when I was a boy of course we had the telephone, the Welland County Telephone, and we either took the Welland paper which was once a week, I think, the Welland Tribune, we had theRural Mail. We took farm papers too, the Farmers Advocate, and we had the Canadian Countryman, and several of them like that. The Family Herald was a little later one that hung on a little longer, but most of them died out. S.R: There were no papers produced in Stevensville or Ridgeway? J.S: Not to my knowledge. S.R: What about the Times Review, did it come this far? J.S: I don't even know whether it was issued then or not, I don't think so. S.R: I think it started in the early 1900s I think. J.S: Well no, we never got that, we got the Welland paper. There may have been one down there then apparently. There may have been ( down there,but we never took it. S.R: Would you remember some of the changes in the stores? When you had to buy clothes where did you go, or staples for the house? J.S: The store in Stevensville was Pat Robinson. He was right on the corner in the building that the bank is in now. The bank was there then, it was the Sterling Bank at that time. The rest of the store, which is now a restaurant, was Pat Robinson's Store. He sold... you could buy a suit of clothes there, ladies, I guess, could buy dresses there. I don't know what they had... the yard goods and groceries and, you name it. S.R: Were there insurances back then? J.S: Yeah, yeah. S.R: Could you get them through Stevensville, or did you have to go elsewhere? J.S: We had one that was called the Bertie and Willoughby Fire Insurance Company. I don't know the particulars on where they were. Later we joined in with the church insurance, the Mer.Aonite Mutual Aid, ( which is what we carry yet today. This house is insured through that. You have to be a member of the Brethren in Christ Men11onite (15) �( Church in order to get it. It is an insurance but they don't call it an insurance, they call it mutual aid. It's supposed to be a bit more brotherly than the insurance companies. S.R: Have you ever had to use it? J.S: Oh yeah. That's what's good about it. They're very... in some cases they'll pay things that aren't even covered. They'll pay ... S.R: Necessities? J.S: Yeah,. if it was from a brotherly viewpoint. I. .. our... I had a tractor that burnt at one time and they paid.. . S.R: Were there many sports in Stevensville? J.S: I didn't participate in any sports .. . S.R: How old were you when you remember your first car, either yours, your parents or your grandparents, or uncle? J.S: My grandparents never had a car. My uncle bought one, I think in 1918. That was the first car that we had on the farm. I done pretty good, when I was 17 and I wanted a car I got one, so... S.R: ( Were they expensive? J.S: Oh, I got one about a year old and it cost $675. S.R: So that was over three years work then? J.S: Yeah, if that's the way you figure. S.R: Well, you said that at that time you got $200 a year. J.S: Yeah, I got $200 a year, but I had a good grandmother that... you know. S.R: This car that your uncle bought in 1918, what kind of car would it have been? J.S: It was a 490 Chev. It was a second-hand one. S.R: Would you know about how much he had to pay for it? J.S: I think $400. S.R: How second-hand was it then? J.S: Oh, I don't know how old it was. But he kept that a few years, and then he got a car you've probably never heard of, a Baby Grand Chevrolet. It was a big Chev., and that, I know at that time was $1,600. I think at that time the ordinary Chev. was $1,200. S.R: About what year would this be, with the Baby Grand Chevrolet? J.S: Oh, about '24. S.R: What was so different about it that it was more money, and it had (16) �( such an elaborate name? J.S: Oh, it was big for a Chev. It was a pretty good sized car, bigger than the ordinary Chev., quite a bit bigger. I don't know why they quit making them, but they quit making them I know. S.R: Did you travel by ferry very often? J.S: Well, we didn't go to Buffalo very often but that's the way you went if you went to Buffalo. S.R: Why would you want to go to Buffalo? J.S: This time I'm telling you about, there was no hospital in Fort Erie. If anybody got sick the doctor took them to the hospital in Buffalo. If... I had a few friends in Buffalo. We used to go over there to the dentist some. Some things like that. S.R: There weren't any dentists around here? J.S: Well, I surmize there was one. I never went to a dentist in Buffalo, but they did in my day, some people. I went to Welland first to the dentist, then went to Fort Erie. S.R: ( Would you remember the first dentist in the area? J.S: Well, the first one that I ever knew of was a Beam. My grandparents went to him. He made dentures, pulled your teeth out and made dentures. For about $1 5 or $20 you could get a new set of teeth. You'd get your old ones out and new ones in. You didn't need any anesthetic in your teeth, you just pulled them out. S.R: Nobody passed out from the pain or anything? J.S: Oh no, not ... my mother-in-law said that that was better than freezing it. Freezing it, you have all the trouble afterwards when the freezing comes out. She didn't have any trouble, she had them pulled out just as they were. That's not me, I wanted them froze. S.R: Did you ever use the Dummy? J.S: Yeah. S.R: Could you describe what you knew about that? J.S: The Dummy was more like a streetcar actually. It was ... you could get that back at Netherby I told you, just a mile from our house. It would stop, if you went back there and pulled the board up. S.R: ( Oh, you're talking about the Dummy. It came up all the way back here? J.S: Oh yeah, it went from... (17) �( S.R: I thought that the Dummy just crossed the International Bridge. J.S: Oh, that was when it was petering' out. It used to go right on up, took you up to Wainfleet. In the later years it just went across the river there. It used to go right on up to... it would go up in the morning and come back at night. S.R: Could you remember any other railroad activities? J.S: Well, the passenger service was so nice in Stevensville. That was one thing that. .. in those days you could get a train from Stevensville, you didn't have to go to Fort Erie or Welland to get a train, you'd just go to Stevensville. Some of them would stop regardless, and some you would have to pull the board up. There was a station master there, and he'd, he'd lift the board for you. Up at Netherby there wasn't, you had to pull the board yourself. S.R: Did you know J. L. Kraft? He was raised in Stevensville. J.S: No. I didn't know him. It was a little before my time, I guess. He may have been here when I was a boy, but I mean, when I got big enough to come to know these fellows he would have been gone. ( S.R: Were there any big accidents in Stevensville, big fires, anything that would have really hit the papers, that you can remember? J.S: Well, the one outstanding one was when the Fretz family was killed. This Fretz family lived about a mile from our farm, and they decided to go to Colorado. They just left their house sit, closed it up, and left. This man lived in Colorado and he had a wife and four children I believe, and he decided that he'd bring them back to see the old place that they came from. Jim Baker, you would know all about him I suppose. Jim was ... he lived right around :the railroad track, north of, around by Graces, across the railroad tracks, that big square brick house right along the railroad track. S.R: On Main Street East? J.S: Yeah, well they lived off East. Their lane came in right beside the railway track from the east. M.rs. Fretz, I think, was a sister of either Mr. Baker or Mr. Baker's wife, I'm not sure which. They came in to visit, they came into the Bakers and Mrs. Baker went with them, and Thelma. Thelma is... she's married to Claudus Sherk. ( She was a little girl, and her mother went, her and her mother went with this Fretz family. They drove out the lane and drove right (18) �in the front of one of these passenger trains. Everybody was killed, ( but this little girl, she's alive. So there were five, I believe, caskets. They had the funeral in our church up there, for the Fretz's. They never sent them back home. They're buried in our cemetery. The father and the mother and the three children. They had one big grave, and they all went right beside each other in the caskets. Of course Mrs. Baker was killed too, but she had a sep rate funeral. They had a funeral in some other church. But that was some funeral. . People from miles around came to that. S.R: Do you remember approximately what year? J.S: I think in the '20s, probably, in the '20s sometime. S.R: I don't remember if it was in the '20s or the '30s, there was a blizzard like the blizzard we had in '77. There was a big snow blizzard. Would you remember anything about that, how it affected people out here? J.S: S.R: ( I remember in '45. It could have been in '45. J.S: In 1945 we were blocked up, the back roads were blocked up all winter. My wife had been in the hospital for a number of years, psychiatric hospital. My wife's sister lived in Pennsylvania. She invited me to bring the children out, I had two girls. I left home on the day after Christmas. I got out with the car. I drove the car to Buffalo. Gasoline was rationed, so I decided to go down on the train. I drove my car, my sister lived in Buffalo, and I parked it at her house. Then I took the train from Buffalo to Harrisburg. . I guess it was. . I was down there for New Years, and the day after New Years I was coming home, and when we got to Buffalo, it was that bad. The train was supposed to be into Buffalo at 8 o'clock in the morning and when they changed crews... they changed train crews once, between... and Buffalo, and when they did, the conductor came on and he said, "I don't know how we're going to get into Buffalo, they're having a terrible storm up there". But, they hooked two passenger trains together, so we had an engine ahead and an engine in the middle and they put an engine behind. These are the steamers. They succeeded in getting down to the foot of Main. There was an old Lehigh Valley Station down there. They couldn't get up to (19) �the new station. When they got in the station they advised us not ( to leave the station because of the conditions and the snow in the city. My sister lived down in Buffalo, so I left my girls in the station and I told them I was going out to see what I could do. So, I found there were some streetcars working and I took them and we went by the streetcar and I got to my sisters place alright. The next morning I took this Dummy you talked about, from Black Rock, Buffalo, to Stevensville, then I walked from Stevensville up home. . We were selling milk at that time and it was quite urgent that I get home. I went home and my car was in Buffalo. After a week I succeeded in getting my car, and this road was opened and I got it to Stevensville here because I had a brother in Stevensville. I got it to his house. All winter then I would drive the horses to Stevensville and take the car from there to the market. I'd take the car from there and then bring it back and drive a horse and buggy. We were selling milk that winter and I drove to town every day, it was still, it was almost impossible for the horses to get through. There were certain roads you could get through and some places ( weren't cleared too good. Well, I delivered my milk to Stevensville and Lichtenberger's picked it up in Stevensville. They could get up here. So I waited, I didn't get my car home then until March. Boy it was rough. S.R: From Christmas? J.S: Yeah, you wouldn't believe how deep that snow was. They had it plowed out and the sides. .. you go up the top and you could touch the telephone wires, it was way up. Then in March it started to break up and they hired the men, farmers and others, that would work for one dollar an hour, to go ahead of the plow and they'd ram into the snowbank and they'd push it out. Then a man would come in and shovel it out, the pile out, while the trucks backed up again and took another run at it and got the movement required. S.R: Do you remember any stories about things that happened that your parents or grandparents would have told you, pertaining to history? J.S: ( Oh, I heard things but I guess it wasn't too much. S.R: Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven't covered that you'd like to mention? (20) �J.S: They, the people lived those days on the little that they had, and were happy. They didn't have to have so much money and they grew their produce for their living and they made a lot of their own clothes, and they seemed to get along as well without having as much money. S.R: People didn't seem to have the money but most people owned their own homes, where now it's changed. J.S: Yeah, you see, when our forefathers came here they got their farms almost for a song. The first home settlers got them free for clearing part of it for three years, or whatever it was, and like I said, the farms were only about 125 pounds, which would be about $500, which was ... and after all, wheat was a dollar a bushel under the best times then, maybe down to 50¢ sometimes. But, you see today. .. I don't even know what wheat's worth now. I think about the best · I ever got was a little over two dollars a bushel. The price the farms are now, I don't know what you'd have to have wheat for now, for that many bushels to pay for a farm. My grandfather always thought you shouldn't buy cows, you should raise them. When they ( got a dollar they had it. Today they blow it and look for another one. My grandfather always had the theory that it didn't make any difference on what you made, it depends on what you save. That's different today. Today if you don't have enough to make ends meet you ask for more. Their theory was that you lived with what you got and if you didn't get enough you lived for less. S.R: Is there anything else? J.S: I don't think so. S.R: Thank you for the interview Mr. Sider. ( (21) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Shelley Richer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Jesse Sider Location The location of the interview. Mr. Sider's residence at 3626 Bowen Road, August 12, 1985 Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Sider, Jesse Description An account of the resource Provided here is Jesse Sider's interview. He discusses such topics as: Farming The Depression Schools Churches Politics and government Stevensville Transportation Ferries Buffalo Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 12, 1985 1980s 1985 Buffalo churches ferries Fort Erie Great Depression Oral history politics and government schools stevensville transcripts transportation http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/4f0c341d60fb4f09a6a24f46add6b7b1.pdf e0fcf1f64ee4b8be2503a13bd6214e49 PDF Text Text Diana Matthews interviewing Elsie Seil at 333 Rose Ave. Fort Erie. Monday, April 15th, 1985. ( D.M: E.S: D.M: E.S: Hi Elsie, can you tell me your full name? My full name is Elsie Seil. How long have you lived in Fort Erie? Since fifty... well, I came over in 1925, but I really became an immigrant in '54. D.M: E.S: Where did you come from? Buffalo. D.M: So are you an American still? E.S: I'm an American citizen, but I'm just an immigrant! D.M: How old are you now? E.S: I'm 88 years old now. D.M: Did you go to school in Fort Erie at all? E.S: No. D.M: Just Buffalo? E.S: Just Buffalo. D.M: I understand you worked at Erie Beach when it was open, when was that? When did you work there? That was when.... in 1927 and '28. D.M: You worked there two years? E.S: Two summers. D.M: What kind of job did you have? E.S: I operated the frozen custard machine. D.M: How much did a frozen custard cost then? E.S: Oh, my word! I don't even remember, I think about three tickets. D.M: Did you have to buy everything with tickets? E.S: Oh, people had to buy tickets D.M: They didn't spend money to buy things? E.S: No, everybody .... they had booths selling tickets D.M: What kinds of rides and attractions did they have there at the park? E.S: ( E.S: Well, they had the Verners Ginger Ale stand and they had a potato chip place, I can't say it was fish and chips because they didn't serve fish, but they served the regular English potato chips with a vinegar, The first time I knew about vinegar! The two fellows that run the place were really English. And then they had the eating stand, a ( couple from.... came down from Rochester, New York. Their name I �( was Schleigel, and they operated the food stand and served meals. D.M: What kind of rides did they have? E.S: Well, they had the regular...... they're rides were..... too many rides. They had the animals, they had sort of little donkeys like, or small horses that the children used to ride on. but the main..... what I used to think was so wonderful was the way they had their swiMming pools. They had a beautiful dance hall and they had a swimming pool on either side of the dance hall, one was for children and one was for grown-ups. But they were heated to a certain temperature in the pools. D.M: Was the water from the lake? E.S: Yeah, from the lake. But they were heated. They had a beautiful dance hall. And another thing that was very nice, everv Sunday afternoon they used to have a sort of a religious service. People would gather from ..... on the side of a... like a hill almost. They woulrl congregate and they'd have a singer from Buffalo and a speaker from Buffalo. And every Sunday afternoon that created and got crowds. That ¥ras one thing that I thought was verv lovely. I know . my folks and everybodies when they'd come visiting, the first thing they'd do would go down Sunday after noon and sit and wait for the service to come along. D.M: Most of the people that came to the park, they were Americans, weren't they? E.S: Oh yes. And the dummy train that used to bring the people from the ferryboat.... and I think alot of people used to. .... the youngsters used to love to get on the dummy train, we used to call it the dummy train. D.M: Where did it run? E.S: Along from Fort Erie, where the boat would come in from across the river, it would meet the people and the dummy train would meet them and bring them up along the waterfront up to the beach. And they'd have certain hours to bring the people and certain hours to take them back. D.M: ( Why was it called the dummy train? E.S: I don't know, but it was called the dummy train! 2 �D.M: The Americans that came to the park, they came across on the ferry? Yeah. D.M: What was that called? E.S: ( E.S: Well, they had a couple of boats that used to even carry the automobiles across on the cars. D.M: What was the park like then? In pictures it looks so nice and now it's so run down. E.S: It was a beautiful natural park, it was a natural park. Everybody felt terrible when they had to ..... when they gave it up. D.M: Why did it close? E.S: Well, I know that when the Bardols sold, they sold it to a man Buffalo and whether he wasn't able to make a go of it or�.,. maybe he got a better price when Crystal Beach started from anyway, dickering, and one by one, one piece at a time would go up to Crystal Beach; when they sold in , when this one closed in 1929. I've been here ... we've had the house open..... of course I was working back and forth, living in Buffalo and Niagra Falls and I'd come weekends until I came here to stay. As I say I came as an Immigrant in '54. But I've been coming over here since '25, 1925, when I was young and ( in my prime! D.M: You mentioned the religious ceremony at Erie Beach, did you go to church in Fort Erie? E.S: No, I don't. I used to go down to the church down on the Boulevard, but I'm not able to go without help. D.M: Which church is that? E.S: Well, they're all alike to me! It's not Catholic. D.M: Anglican? E.S: Yes, the one up on the knoll there, down in Fort Erie. D.M: Did you're husband work at the park with you too? E.S: Yeah. D.M: What did he do? E.S: He run the Verners Ginger stand, he made all the ginger ale; Lifting and things, got himself a hernia! Took that to his grave! D.M: What was Fort Erie like at that time, was it any different than it is now, has the population changed quite a bit? ( E.S: Well, I can't say for the better! Honestly! I shouldn't say that because 3 �I'm here in my little corner here, but the things that you hear that's going on all the time, it's all over. People aren't the way they used to be I don't think. They're not as friendly, they're not as courteous, ( they don't know enough to say thank-you. I don't know, people are different. I think so. Do you know people are just so by the1:1selves, if I can't live like my neighbor next door, why there's gonna be a way I'm gonna get it! They want to be..... live up like the Jone'ses: We're getting too many foreigners coming into the countries, Canada and the United States, one is as bad as the other D.M: In the 1920's, was there alot of cars then? E.S: Oh, yeah, people that would come over from Buffalo and you know, everybody that ...... Well, practically all of these people this house next door, when I came over here, it was a ..... now pre-fabricated house and well, the lady that lived in there then, she didn't have a car, but she came ..... she was a Canadian but she worked baby specialists, doctors. And she always had worked in Buffalo, but she used this for her a for good case, she headquarters, and then finally she sold this and then there was some people that bought it frow Buffalo and they had a car, or in fact a couple of cars because tha family was growing and so outside of that all of the people ( that had lived on this street have all had cars. D.M: Was there any horses and buggies around? E.S: Oh, no, I've never seen that! D.M: Well, thanks for talking to me Elsie, thanks very wuch. E.S: You're welcome. SUPPLEMENT TO INTER VIEW [After the conclusion of our interview, Elsie talked some more about Erie Beach, so I have included it here.] D.M: What about the Erie Beach Hotel, was it there? E.S: Oh, the Erie Beach Hotel, it was just a building and they rented rooms out and they had a dining room, but I don't even remember whether they had a liquor license. It was on the waterfront, at this end and practically opposite where the grocery store is. D.M: ( Did they have entertainment there? E.S: No, no entertainment or anything. They rented rooms out and a couple of times on Sundays, Lou and I used to go and have our dinner there, but outside of that I don't even remember whether they had a liquor license or not. 4 �D.M: E.S: ( Where in the park did they have entertainment, at the dance hall? That's the only place. D.M: There was music and a bowling alley, right? E.S: Yeah. It was a nice park. Anybody will tell you that. Nice park. And it's too bad that they had to close it. Believe me. D.M: Were you here when it closed? E.S: Oh yes. D.M: It was on Labour Day, wasn't it? E.S: Yes, end of the year in ' 29, D.M: Were you working there when it closed? E.S: Yeah. D.M: So you lost your job? E.S: Yup. D.M: That was during the Depression, wasn't it? E.S: Well, maybe that's what closed it. D.M: What did you do after you lost your job? E.S: I stayed home here. D.M: Your husband worked? E.S: Yeah. 1929. ' 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Diana Matthews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Elsie Siel Location The location of the interview. Mrs. Siel's home at 333 Rose Ave, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History -- Seil, Elsie Description An account of the resource Provided here is Elsie Siel's interview. She discusses such topic as: Erie Beach South end Buffalo Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 1985 1980s 1985 Buffalo Erie Beach Fort Erie Oral history south end transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/dd72c4009969915e49a69758ed95a154.pdf e327ff40caba7c218c84bf2d92dc202f PDF Text Text ���������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Patrick Ryan Location The location of the interview. The Barnea, 28 Courtwright Street, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Ryan, Patrick Description An account of the resource Provided here is Patrick Ryan's interview. He discusses such topics as: Hotels and taverns The Barnea Bootlegging North end Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 22, 1985 1980s 1985 Barnea Fort Erie hotels and taverns north end Oral history transcripts