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This is Shelley Richer interviewing Mrs. Esther Kent in her home
at 115 Lavinia Street, on September 20, 1985.
S.R:
Hello Mrs. Kent and how are you?
E.K:
Oh, I'm quite well thank you.
S.R:
What is 'your date of birth?
E.K:
September the 18th, 1899.
S.R:
Where were you born?
E.K: . In Fort Erie, Amigari as it was called then, where I was born.
S.R:
Where in Amigari?
E.K:
On the corner of Catherine and Concession.
S.R:
Have you lived in the area all your life?
E.K:
All my life, within a mile of that place.
S.R:
Could you tell me what school you attended and where it is located?
E.K:
Well, first it was a little Amigari schoolhouse. Then when
I
was
10 years old, I went down to what was Phipps Street School at that
time, later called Rose Seaton School.
S.R:
Where was the Amigari Schoolhouse?
E.K:
On the . . . what did I say ... on the Gilmore. When you cross over
the railroad track it was a little short distance from there, about
six places. There was the hotel, and then the little store, and a
couple houses, a store, and then three little houses, and the schoolhouse.
That was the end until you got a ways out into the country.
S.R:
ls that building still there now?
E.K:
No, they moved that down near the Horton Steel, and they used
it for an annex for the school at one time, and then later for a Boy
Scout hall, but it's gone now. I wish I had a picture of it.
S.R:
Do you remember your teacher?
E.K:
Yes, I remember my first teacher when I went to school. Her name
was Miss Mossip, and I liked her, and I think everybody did.
S.R:
Do you know when that school closed?
E.K:
Well now, really I don't know that. Oh, it must have been. . . I imagine
'25 anyway, 1925 or maybe later, because they used it for a little
annex school for the Wintemute School.
(
S.R:
What's an annex school?
E.K:
Oh, just a . . . they moved it down there, this little Amigari schoolhouse,
(1)
�(
and they used it for the overflow, like.
S.R:
Then you went to Phipps Street School?
E.K:
Yeah.
S.R:
Do you recall who your teacher or principal was there?
E.K:
Yes, when I first went it was Mr. Hansel.
S.R:
That was the principal?
E.K:
That was the principal, but he also taught, you know.
S.R:
Could you describe... starting with the first school, could you describe
.what it looked like?
E.K:
Who ?
S.R:
The A migari School.
E.K:
Oh, one room, one room for all the classes.
S.R:
What did you do for heat and water and stuff?
E.K:
Well, there was a sink in one corner. It was just a sink with a tap
on it, just cold water, you know. Heat did you say?
S.R:
Yes.
E.K:
It
was a gas stove. There were two, one in... like, this way, you
know, one in the front there, and one in the back there. It was
{
gas heaters.
S.R:
Coal for gas, or natural gas or ... ?
E.K:
Natural gas.
I
can't remember coal in the stove really. It might
have been.
S.R:
What about desks and things like that? Was it benches or did you
have little desks ?
E.K:
Oh, they were nice little desks, you know, joined like they used
to be years ago. .They were all in a row, you know, your desk and
your seat, and then the desk was on the back, and all the rows.
There was about... I i magine there were five rows in that, because
they were all grades, you know.
S.R:
E.K:
Gee, I don't know. I'll bet there were 30 in there.
S.R:
All for one teacher to handle ?
E.K:
Yes.
S.R:
(
How many children were at that school?
No wonder it only went up to age 10. Then at the Phipps Street
School, could you describe to me what that school was like?
E.K:
Well, that was a . .. we thought that was wonderful, you know, then.
(2)
�Let's see, there must have been ... there was two, four, three . . .
(
there was six rooms in it, six big rooms.
S.R:
Is that the way it was originally, would you know?
E.K:
When I went there it was like that, but it hadn't been enlarged,
well, maybe a few years before
S.R:
I
went.
Do you recall what it was like before you went then, before it was
enlarged?
E.K:
Well, there was four rooms, but then they put one . . . it was, two
·like here, and then one in the back, and then it was the same way
below, u p and down, up and down.
S.R:
Oh, so there was an upstairs and a downstairs?
E.K:
Yes, and a basement where you played when it was raining.
S.R:
Did the school have very many sports?
E.K:
Only what you made yourself. No one came in and guided us, you
know, just what you ... played ball. Maybe some teacher would be
interested enough to go out and play with you and instruct you,
like that, you know. Ball seemed to be the most common thing.
(
S.R:
Do you recall any funny stories or things that happened during your
school days?
E.K:
Oh gee, I don't know. I couldn't tell you that offhand." I bet there
were lots though.
S.R:
Was M r . Hansel your only teacher at Phipps Street School, or did
you have others?
E.K:
There was a teacher for every room. Each room had a teacher.
S.R:
Do you recall any of their names?
E.K:
Oh golly, yes I would. Let's see, the first teacher I had when I went
down there was Miss Anthes. Oh, there was a Miss . . . I don't know,
a Miss... I can't remem ber the different names. I can't . . . you know,
I would, but just asking me now I wouldn't. Through the years I
often thought of the different teachers. Miss Seaton, Miss Seaton,
oh yes, Miss Seaton, and two Miss Gerrards, Jane Gerrard and Helen
Gerrard. Gosh, you know, these are all our own ages. These were
all old women to us kids, but they couldn't have been. Miss Mossip
finally went down there, but
(
I
had gone by that time. I had left
school, you know ... Miss Mossip, she went down there teaching.
S.R:
Did you go to the high school here?
(3 )
�(
E.K:
This school that is here now? No, it wasn't there when I went.
S.R:
No, but did you continue your education after Phipps Street School?
E.K:
Well, when we were in Phipps Street School, they had what they
called a high school, but it was really only a continuation of the
public school, but it was considered a high school, you know. Oh,
it was Anderson, his name was. There was another teacher Miss
Johns, and Mr. Huey Henderson. You see how they come back to
me? Yeah, Henderson was the principal when I left. I was like,
·in the second gr ade of high school, the second form. They called
.
them forms at that time, first form, second form, you know. It
would be like, what is it, 10, 11, 12 ... 9, 10, 11, 12 now, isn't it?
Well, that would have been, like, 9 would have been the first grade
of high school, the first form of high school.
S.R:
When did the high school come? The Wintemute School, was that
just a regular school too, or did that have a high school in it?
E.K:
I. .. that must have been... well, first it was up where the school
is now, they built a nice Wintemute School there. Then they tore
(
it all down and put that one up. But,
I
never got to that one. That
was just built when I went over to Buffalo to school and took a
business course.
S.R:
Oh, so if you wanted to continue your education you had to go out
of town then.
E.K:
Unless you finished, like, the forms in high school, you know, if
you wanted to go on for a teacher, or something like that, you know.
S.R:
But you would still have to go out of town to get any kind of degree
though, right?
E.K:
Oh yeah.
S.R:
Where would you go? Would most people go to Buffalo?
E.K:
No, they went to Ha milton from here, mostly I think. But Buffalo,
I just . . . that was a separate· school like, you know, business college.
S.R:
Oh, and since your mother was A merican, it was easy for you to
go over there then?
B.K:
S.R:
(
No, no, everybody just had to pay the same.
What about church? Have you been a member of a church?
E.K:
Always.
S.R:
Could you tell me where you started out going to church?
(4)
�(
E.K:
St. Pauls ... when I started?
S.R:
Yes, when you started going to church, could you tell me where
you went?
always went.
E.K:
I
S.R:
Okay, when you were little, where did you go to church first?
E.K:
That was it. There, we went to Sunday school in the morning, and
church after.
S.R:
Where was the Methodist Church that you had mentioned to me
.before?
E.K:
Well, this little Methodist one was up in the west end and we only
went there when we were children. Then it petered out, you know.
S.R:
It was like a Sunday school church?
E.K:
Yeah, but they were good. They were very good to us.
S.R:
Do you know where in the west end?
E.K:
Yeah, it's on the Gilmore R oad. People by the name of James own
it now, and they turned it into a lovely home on the corner of...
oh, I don't know. That would be the corner of what? I could tell
(
you what street that would be on, on the corner. It isn't Ellen.
S.R:
There's Torrence.
E.K:
Kingsmill would it be?
S.R:
Kingsmill is the dead-end street.
E.K:
Is it?
S.R:
It's a little dead-end street.
E.K:
I'll look in the telephone directory I suppose, and that will tell you
where James is. [279 Gilmore Road]
S.R:
E.K:
Down the Boulevard there.
S.R:
Oh, the church that they just did an addition to a while ago?
E.K:
Yes.
S.R:
Has that changed much?
E.K:
Oh yes.
S.R:
And how has it changed then?
E.K:
Oh, that big new addition was just put on a year ago, you know.
S.R:
(
You said you went to St. Pauls Church, and where's St. Pauls Church?
What about before then, from . . . ?
E.K:
Well, it was like that ever since I can remember. I was baptized,
and confirmed, and married there, and my grandparents were all
(5 )
�(
buried there, and my family and all. It's part of my life.
S.R:
Do you know what year it was built, or the approximate year?
E.K:
The church ?
S.R:
Yeah.
E.K:
You know, I have all that in books here.
S.R:
Off the.top of your head, was it built before 1900, do you know ?
E.K:
When my mother came here to live, she was married in 1893, and
she said when she came here they-were just . . . well, that was rebuilding
.it bec<>use it had been burnt down. Well, it was burnt, I won't say
it was burned down, becuse it was all stone, but they rebuilt.
S.R:
Oh, so it burned before 1900 then?
E.K:
Oh yeah. There was a little one in the back first.
S.R:
Do you recall any special events that the church had to offer the
family?
E.K:
I suppose my own wedding was the most important one, wasn't i t ?
My aunt was married there, but she was married before i t was rebuilt,
my father's sister. You know, I have a whole portfolio of church,
and
(
I
have another one of town that I have saved through the years.
I was a great one to save that stuff, and
I
suppose I kind of enjoyed
it myself. This is stuff I love looking through, old stuff, but
I
haven't
it here.
S.R:
Did they have any special group meetings, or . . . ?
E.K:
What, the church ?
S.R:
Yeah. What kind of events did they have that people could go to
and enjoy themselves, as an outing ?
E.K:
When we ... before we were married, and even after, they had what
they called the A.Y.P.A., and that was the young people's group,
the Anglican Young People's Association, that we all took a wonderful
interest in.
S.R:
What did they do?
E.K:
Oh, they had parties and dances, and everything like that, you know.
S.R:
Then what was there for when you got older?
E.K:
Well, I suppose then you got your family and they went to Sunday
school and you got interested in the Sunday school work, you know,
(
and the church work. I don't do a great deal of it anymore, now
(6)
�I just belong to the church group, the A.C. W.
S.R:
What does A. C. W. mean?
E.K:
Anglican Church Women. They are all Anglicans, my father's people.
My cousin, well my cousin's husband said that you had to be an Anglican
to get in that family. That's the way he put it when he married
my cousin who was an Anglican.
S.R:
Do you remember any prominent people of the church or somebody
that really did a lot to help people out, or anyting like that?
E.K:
. Oh, there's been lots of them through the years I think though, but . . .
yeah, I can remember when I was a kid, M r . Hurrell. H e had the
little store in Amigari there, right where you lived [on Dunlop Street],
but he was a great church worker. They're all buried in the church
yard there. He was one of the supporters of the church really.
Oh yeah, there was ... who was I just going to say? You know, I'm
not as good at thinking of names quick enough anymore. Who was
it I was going to ... Eliott, M r. Elliot, he was a good church worker.
Oh, there was lots of them, Land and... I can think of a dozen any
other time. The Hersheys and the Curtis' and the R icelys and . . .
{
I don't know who did any more help than my own grandparents did,
and their name was Bown. That was my grandparents, you know,
that was my grandparents.
S.R:
Well, speaking of your grandparents, could you tell me a little bit
of their history and what brought them to Fort Erie?
E.K:
The railroad. They came to Canada, my grandfather did, the railroad
sent him over here to work ... not to Fort Erie. He came from London,
England to London, Canada, and then he went to, after that he
went to Brantford, because my father was born there, and then
they sent him down here.
S.R:
Did he ever tell any stories about the way things used to be around
here, like when he came, or anything that happened?
E.K:
He lived in Fort Erie then, and then they moved u p to A migari,
later you know, they built a home u p there. That was, I suppose,
near the shops. You know, my father worked seven nights a week.
He worked nights most of the time, always as far as I could remember,
(
and seven nights a week, and he worked 13 hours a night.
S.R:
Was it a very good paying job for all those hours?
(7)
�(
E.K:
A dollar a day. That's what he used to... I can remember him getting
a dollar a day.
S.R:
Why so many hours?
E.K:
Well, I don't know that.
S.R:
And all the days? Or is that just before unions and different things
started coming in and they started going fairer to the employees?
E.K:
Yeah, but that was in 1900, you know, when my father was working
like that. My father was an engineer on the railroad, a locomotive
.engineer.
S.R:
Was he often gone overnight then?
E.K:
Well no, not then, but if he was on the road, when he was on the
road he would be. My husband was too. He'd be gone... he was
gone a week sometimes.
S.R:
Where did the trains go to?
E.K:
Well, I don't ... I couldn't tell you. Stratford was, I know, always
a place where they were going. Sarnia, oh gosh... yes, they could
tell stories on the railroad. All
(
I
got was railroad all my life.
S.R:
Yes, between your husband, and your grandfather, and your father.
E.K:
Yeah, but my son worked for the railroad like that too, but then
my husband went on the police and he never ... then they called
him back on the railroad when they picked up, you know, but he
was on the police and he stayed there. It was better, you know,
the hours were better. The hours weren't much better but he was
in town all the time.
S.R:
What Police Force did he go into? Was there a Fort Erie, or a Bridgeburg,
or were they all one?
E.K:
No, it was all one when he went, I guess, because it was Fort Erie.
But they didn't amalgamate 'til after he was on the Police Force.
What year did they amalgamate? I don't remember.
S.R:
So there could have been Fort Erie for Fort Erie South and Bridgeburg
for Fort Erie North?
E.K:
I think it was all together though, the police, because he went to
the same station, at the North End. The Police Station was at the
North End, so it was.
(
S.R:
The same place where they just moved it from?
E.K:
On Jarvis Street? That's where it was then.
(8)
�S.R:
It was on Jarvis and not Central?
E.K:
Jarvis and Central, the corner of Jarvis and Central.
S.R:
Do you remember what it was like then, what the building was like?
E.K:
(
Gee, I can remember when it was a little building when I was a
kid, you know, because a friend of mine, her grandfather was, he
worked for the Town and he used to take us in and show us the jails,
you know, down there. We thought it was terrible, you know. We
were little kids 10-12 years old.
S.R:
.Where was the Town Hall then?
E.K:
That was right there.
S.R:
All the same building?
E.K:
Well, it isn't the same building, because it was only a little one
then, see. It's a nice one, well, it's a nice looking one now, I mean,
but it was just a little one then.
S.R:
E.K:
Oh there.
S.R:
(
What was the Bertie Hall? It's now the doll house.
What was that for?
E.K:
People by the name of Patterson, they were great church workers
too, when you asked before
Pattersons lived there, a man and
.••
a woman. I can't remember before, anyone before them, but I had
heard there was people before them, you know. There was just
a man and a woman, they had no family when they lived there.
S.R:
So why was it called the Bertie Hall then?
E.K:
I don't know.
S.R:
Could you tell me any changes, anything you remember your husband
talking about about the Police Department, and the changes that
occured?
E.K:
Well, it was quite different. It was just the Town when he was
there then. After then it was
•••
what do you call it?
S.R:
Regional?
E.K:
Regional, I couldn't get it out of me. It was Regional after that.
It wasn't Regional 'til after he retired.
S.R:
What years did he work for the Police Force?
E.K:
Was it 27 years, I guess
S.R:
From 1933 then 'til
E.K:
What did I say, 27 years.
S.R:
•••
from '33.
•••
•••
'til 1960.
(9)
�E.K:
He had worked 'til 1960, yeah.
S.R:
So that's 27 years, yes.
S.R:
(
What about Fire Departments, do you recall the Fire Departments
at all?
E.K:
Yeah, he was in the Fire Department too. But when he was on
the Fire Department he couldn't be on the Police Department, so
he had to give the Fire Department up. He didn't get paid on the
Fire Department, you know, but you got paid on the Police Department,
.so he had to go to that. You know, when he went on the Police
Department to work, he made $100 a month. Gee, we thought that
was wonderful, a $100 a month. When he quit... then he got a $100
a year increase. He was making, I don't know how it worked now,
he was making $3,700 when he retired at 60, and now they start
at $37,000 a year.
S.R:
That's a big difference.
E.K:
It is, it's really funny. I don't know what he would think if he was
here.
(
S.R:
Where was the Fire Department when your husband was a member?
E.K:
It used to be down on Queen Street, the old Town Hall. Do you
know which is the old Town Hall? It's the Legion Hall now. Do
you know which is the Legion on Queen Street? It's a big old building,
but they keep it nice.
S.R:
Oh, and that was the major Fire Department?
E.K:
That was the Fire Department, that there. No, they had a little
one next to it, but it was right
•••
isn't that... I don't know if that's
there or not anymore. I never go down the street anymore. It was
just... it can't be there anymore, no, because they have the nice
one up here now.
S.R:
On Bertie Street?
E.K:
Yeah.
S.R:
What about the Amigari Fire Department?
E.K:
That?
S.R:
Yes, you had mentioned before about it. Could you tell me where
that is?
E.K:
Well, that was on... what did I say, Russell
S.R:
There's Russell and Jennet.
•••
(10)
no that's not Russell.
�E.K:
Russell, then it's Russell, isn't it. I get twisted now with the streets.
I have to
•••
in my mind, you know.
S.R:
Did it have any special name or was it just the Amigari Fire Department?
E.K:
Yes, the Amigari Fire Department.
S.R:
Did they have the uniforms?
E.K:
No, they didn't have the uniforms.
S.R:
They didn't have the hats
E.K:
They wore the rubber boots.
S.R:
.Just the rubber boots. Do you recall your husband going to any
•••
?
big fires?
E.K:
Ah, I remember one time when he went and it was all night. I thought
that was a big one. That was on Lewis Street nearly down to the
river, up a little ways. What was it? Laclead I think it was there
that burnt.
S.R:
What was Laclead?
E.K:
It was something to do... I don't know just what it was, what they
did there. It was something about paint. Or was it
(
.•.
? I don't really
know what it was.
S.R:
Was it any of the Liquid Veneer fires?
E.K:
Golly yes. He was to that one to. I remember my husband went
to that one.
S.R:
There was a church too at the bottom of Courtwright Street, and
that church burned down.
E.K:
That was the Presbyterian Church, and the Oddfellows Hall was
beside it. Which burnt, the church or the hall? No the Oddfellows
Hall... did the church burn or the Oddfellows Hall, or both?
S.R:
I've just heard about a church burning.
E.K:
Just the church was it. I don't remember. I remember the fire,
yes, but
S.R:
I
don't remember...?
Was your husband involved in that one at all, or would that have
been the Bridgeburg Fire Department?
E.K:
No, they would have been there too maybe. I don't remember the
year or that. It seems to me that I was still in school when that
burnt. So he would have been, my husband wouldn't have been here
(
then. He didn't come to Fort Erie 'til about 1917
he came to the Shipyard to work.
(11)
I
don't think, and
�(
S.R:
Is that how you met him then, at the Shipyards?
E.K:
Yeah, that picture there that I showed you, the one man was his
father, and he was the electrical engineer, and he brought my husband
down to work with him there because he was a boy and he didn't
want to go to school anymore, so he brought him down to work.
S.R:
You and your husband met at the Shipyards, what year would that
have been?
E.K:
1917, I think. Let's see
•••
1918, because I went to work in '17 down
.there.
S.R:
You both worked at the Shipyards then. Could you tell me what
you did there? What was your job?
E.K:
I was in the office, a stenographer, bookkeeper. I did everything
in the beginning, but then when they got busier they had to get
more in, you know.
S.R:
Could you tell me anything about the Shipyards, what they did,
peoples names that you can remember that worked there... ?
E.K:
Well, all those men there [in this picture], I can remember all of
them.
S.R:
Were they just the workers or were they the bosses?
E.K:
Oh, they were the bosses. I think my husband has on the back here
the different ones... bookkeeper, storekeeper, superintendent, office
manager, like that, he has put them down. He had charge of it
at that time, Mr. Lovejoy, when they opened up. Bigger ones came
in then after that, you know, but he was the general superintendent.
S.R:
Could you tell me who operated it or owned it?
E.K:
Well, they called it the Allis Chalmers, Canadian Allis Chalmers.
S.R:
And they operated it and owned it?
E.K:
Well, I don't know, I suppose
•••
I don't know if you would say owned
it, but operated it. It was quite a big concern. You know who Allis
Chalmers is, even today.
S.R:
E.K:
I sure do. I watched the christening of all of them.
S.R:
Do you remember their names?
E.K:
(
Do you recall the boats that were built there?
Yep, War Magic, War Vixen
•••
I did. I can't recall the other two
of them right off hand now. I was looking through it Sunday and
I did. I have the christenings of them here. [Then she shows me
(12)
�the picture of the Amigari Station where the trains stopped] Imagine,
(
it wasn't any bigger than this room, I don't suppose. But the trains
stopped there because they brought the mail and dropped off the
mail, you know, from the store, from Malcolm's Store... Mr. HurrelJ,
it was in the first place. He'd bring the bag of mail to the station
for the train when it was time for it to come in you see, and then
he'd take the one off.
S.R:
So, then the post office was right in the store?
E.K:
't eah. Later years it was moved over to the other store, at the
corner of Gilmore and Concession, but in early years that's where
it was.
S.R:
Is there anythipg else that you can remember about your days at
the Shipyards? Did you ever visit the community that they had
there?
E.K:
Well, across the road there was a building... oh, a lot of... well,
there were big buildings where they stayed, the workers from the
Shipyard... boarding houses and rooms. I could go over there any
time and eat but I didn't like to go because I was only a girl. I used
(
to take my lunch to work with me. But I went over... I had been
over different times if I just didn't happen to have my lunch, or
maybe they'd want me to work in the evening, you know, and I'd
go over and have my supper there before I could work in the evening.
S.R:
Did they have a store or anything there?
E.K:
Yes they did. They had a store... who had the store? I can't remember
now the name offhand who had the store. This was the first book
I ever had. It is pretty well in pieces. Here is a picture of the
first police car at that time.
S.R:
Do you know who was driving it?
E.K:
Well, that was my husband there. There was only the chief and
Walter [her husband Walter Kent]. There was Andy Griffen and
Walter and Howie, Mr. Howie was one of them, and Sam Brown.
Well, there were four of them before... then, you know, they had
one and then another one
•••
and Chirp Matthews, he was made chief.
S.R:
(
When your husband started was it just Mr. Griffen?
E.K:
Yep. There's the launching of one of the boats, [showing a picture
in her album] at the Shipyard. That's when she splashed into the
(13)
�(
water, and I was standing over there watching it.
S.R:
Was that something really special for all the people?
E.K:
Oh yeah, it sure was. Shipyard 1919, I didn't have marked down
which boat that was though [reading the back of one of the launching
pictures].
S.R:
Who was the first political representative that you can remember?
E.K:
I'd be... oh, gee wiz, I'm a poor Canadian. I'd be better telling you
the first President of the United States.
S.R:
·no you know your first reeve?
E.K:
I wonder who was? You know, I never thought of that. I don't know.
I don't know just who I'd say. [looking at more Shipyard pictures]
You know there's a little train that used to run down. What did
they call it? ... the Paddy Miles. It used to run from the Bridge burg
Station down to the Shipyard and take them into work.
S.R:
Did people travel from other places like Niagara Falls?
E.K:
I imagine they came from Niagara Falls too. They came from Welland
and all around to work. There were cars by that time.
(
S.R:
Could you tell me some changes that have taken place in the Town,
like with the amalgamation of the three villages, or other things
that you can think of from the areas?
E.K:
No, I don't know. I know, like now, when we came up here to live,
we came up here in '24, the 24th of May, 1924 to live in this house,
and we've lived here every since. There was no sewer, and they
were only mud roads. In the next year, the fall of '25, they put
the sewer through, and that was a big improvement. That was really
something, you can imagine.
S.R:
Was it outhouses before then?
E.K:
Yes, when we come up here, yes, unless you had a septic tank, yeah.
The house next door had a septic tank, my brother lived next door,
and that was something.
S.R:
E.K:
Yes. So, we knew the sewer was coming through
S.R:
So you just had to wait instead of putting in a septic tank.
E.K:
(
Oh, so that was very rare then, having a spetic tank.
Yeah. They said it was coming through then anyway, you know.
•••
That was... I think that was, maybe the biggest... well, it was nice
to have these roads too. First they put this one through. Well,
(14)
�then they put the one on High through. We had lights... they had
(
electric lights when we came here.
S.R:
Were you young when you got your first telephone, or was it...?
E.K:
Oh, we had ... no, my mother and father, they lived on Wintemute
Street, my father and mother did. They lived up in the West End
there, on the corner as I say, on Catherine and Concession, and
before I was married... in 1921.
••
in 1923 they moved down on Wintemute
Street and they built that home a couple of doors from the funeral
home, going towards the river. I lived there a year with them after
we were married, then we bought this one here. That was in '24,
we come up here then. That was in '24, we come up here then,
got married in '23 and come up here in '24.
S.R:
You started out living in Amigari, other than the railroad, did Amigari
have any other kind of jobs available?
E.K:
Just the railroad.
S.R:
It was just the railroad in Amigari and then the two stores?
E.K:
That's what most everyone worked at. A few may have... now,
I know our next door neighbour, he went to Buffalo to work, but
(
that was unusual. There wasn't many that did that, you know, you
had to walk. That's like from the Racetrack, you know, then down
to the ferry, either there and go across the boat. f<ble�1b::.f' you
...
don't remember, but I mean, hearing about it, the ferry boats they
had. Or else you went down to the station. There's no station now,
but where it was. I guess the one station was Michigan Central,
was there yet, going across on the International Bridge on what
they called the little Dummy.
S.R:
Could you describe it for me?
E.K:
The little Dummy? Well, it was just like one coach with the engine
room, or whatever you call it, would be in one end of it, you know,
and it went back and forth on schedule.
S.R:
Was that the swing bridge? Did the International Bridge used to
swing or lift then?
E.K:
Not that one
•••
well, that one does, yes, but then there was another
little one going over the canal, you know. It went as far as the
island, and then there was another bridge going
•••
well, it was all
a continuation really, and then that went over the canal to Black
(15)
�Rock.
S.R:
So, then the International Bridge doesn't swing, just the other one
does?
E.K:
Oh, yes it did.
S.R:
It did? That's how they got the lakers through that they built at
the bottom of
•••
Queen Street was it, that Horton built boats?
E.K:
Oh yeah, just one.
S.R:
Just one, and then they had to use the swing bridge, or the lift bridge,
·to get it through?
E.K:
Well, it didn't have to go through there because it went right into
the lake from the
.••
where they built it there, you know. But when
they built the ships at the Shipyards they had to come up. I had
a picture of the International Bridge here a minute ago. There's
another of the boats. I wonder what one that one was. Oh, what
was the name of the other two. The War Magic and War Vixen...
it seemed ·to me that they were going to call them something and
then they changed it to North America and South America. Gee,
I should know that. I did all the bookwork then. See, there's the
(
two other boats there and there, at the Shipyard. Oh, I used to
take lots of the pictures. My husband did too, down there. We
were pretty dedicated to the Shipyard. When they closed I stayed ...
I was there after they closed, and they wanted me to go to Toronto
and work, but I didn't want to go away from home.
S.R:
Were you married yet?
E.K:
No, we went together, my husband and I, four years before we were
married.
S.R:
At the Fort Erie Racetrack, they used to hold the Bertie Fair there,
how many days was it opened every year?
E.K:
It was just two days I think. Yeah, I think it was two days, like
all these country fairs, you know.
S.R:
Could you tell me a little bit about the Bertie Fair, what your memories
are about that?
E.K:
Well, we went to them when we were kids, but they were really
an attraction. Well, what did they have? They did have a baby
(
show, always. I know, because we'd have our... when we got married
and had babies, we'd have them in the baby show.
(16)
�But as a kid
(
•..
I don't know, it just seemed to me that we went for
a good time. There was nothing like there is today, you know.
S.R:
Oh, entertainment?
E.K:
No. I always took an interest in seeing the animals at it, you know,
and the fancy work and all that stuff. My daughter who had been
with me this week, she just left before you came, she lives north
of Toronto, up near Barrie at a place called Tottenham, and their
fair is on. That's why she had to go home, because their fair is
.on just now, and they have a business, a nursery business, and he
has one of the stalls there. We got a kick out of that.
S.R:
Did they have anything else other than just the exhibitions?
E.K:
No.
S.R:
Do you remember any races or anything there, horse races?
E.K:
Oh, the horse races, oh, at the racetrack, yes, I should say so. From
the time I was a kid I can remember it, yeah, because we lived
right there. You had to go up our street to it when we lived on
the corner there. Buses used to go up with the people. They'd
(
meet them at the boat, you know, coming across.
S.R:
Were there car buses then?
E.K:
No, horse and bus.
S.R:
What were they like?
E.K:
Well, it was a big bus. I imagine it would seat about 12 each time...
oh no, it must have been more than that, 14 maybe, seven could
sit on each side of it, you know. Two horses it would have usually,
you know.
S.R:
Was it like a hay wagon type of bus?
E.K:
No, they had tops on them and they were nice. They were really
nice buses. Then they charged so much
•••
I can't remember what
they charged, maybe a quarter, you know. I imagine it would have
been to come up the track, you know.
S.R:
Where it was only a nickel or something for the ferry, and they
charged you a quarter for the bus. What was it for the ferry, do
you remember?
E.K:
(
No, I really don't
•••
the ferry? ••• a nickel. Unless you bought tickets,
then you'd buy a lot of tickets and then you'd have them. I imagine
we bought them cheaper then.
(17)
�(
S.R:
It cost a nickel to use the ferry and a quarter to use the bus ?
E.K:
Oh, maybe . . . I don't know, maybe it wasn't a quarter on the bus,
because I . . . we didn't have any horses and carriages for that. Different
ones had them. Sherks and Shislers had them, and . . . hmm, somebody
else I'm trying to think of and I can't think of the name now. They
owned a lot of property around here too. Yeah, but Sherks and
Shisle rs had, because we used to love to get a ride. You know,
the roads were all mud roads then; and you can imagine how dusty
they got in the summer. I can remember the dust that used to come,
and we used to have to get the hose and water down the streets,
you know, so we wouldn't get so much dust in our house.
S.R:
Then what did you do in the wintertime, in the slushy time?
E.K:
Oh, that was nice. That was the big sleighs you know , the farmers
would come in with their big sleigh and we'd hitch a ride with our
little sleighs on the back of those. They'd let us hang onto it, you
know, hook onto rather, and hitch a ride. It was lots of fun when
they used to take you out into the country and you had to get back
though, because they weren't coming back at that time of night,
(
you had to walk back. No, I think we had lots of fun for kids, you
know, without all the things they have today to entertain them,
where ours was just like that.
S.R:
Erie Beach and Crystal Beach, did you visit either of them?
E.K:
Oh yes, yeah we did that Erie Beach a lot.
S.R:
Could you describe Erie Beach for me then?
E.K:
Erie Beach was an . . . I always thought Erie Beach was a nice place.
It was a quieter place than Crystal Beach. They had a wonderful
Dance Hall, they had bowling downstairs, you know, and they had
lots of amusements, of course, the Merry-Go-Round, Ferris Wheels . . .
what was the other one I'm trying t o think of? . . . Roller Coaster
and things like that, you know.
S.R:
Did you ever go swim ming in the pool there?
E.K:
Yes, we did. We didn't have the swimsuits as they have today though.
S.R:
Were they the kind that went down to your knees, those type of
bathing suits?
(
E.K:
Gee, I think it did.
S.R:
Could you describe the pool for me?
(18)
�(
E.K:
Well, it seemed big to me, but
I
suppose it wasn't, you know.
seemed awfully big when you're little like that, but
I
It
suppose it
would be . . . Erie Beach had a lovely one. I don't remember a swimming
pool at Crystal Beach, it was all nice sandy, white beach there.
S.R:
So they probably didn't need a swim ming pool then?
E.K:
They didn't need it. They had a nice big pier where the boats came
in. Crystal Beach was nice, well they were both nice.
S.R:
What about the athletic field at Erie Beach, did you ever go on
picnics there?
E.K:
Oh yeah, the Sunday school picnics would always go, and we had
family picnics, and we had group picnics.
S.R:
Everybody held their things at Erie Beach, like they do now at the
Old Fort?
E.K:
No, Erie Beach.
S.R:
No, now people have family picnics at the Old Fort.
E.K:
Yeah we did. We had them for a long time. We had the family
picnic here for years, in my own home here. Since they all died
(
off we didn't have them anymore.
S.R:
Could you tell me about Crystal Beach?
E.K:
Well, Crystal Beach as
It
I
say, was on a larger scale than Erie Beach.
was sunny and sandy and nice, you know, nice white sand. They
had all the same amusements but a bigger scale. They had a big
Dance Hall there, they had roller skating. That's what I liked, was
roller skating.
S.R:
Oh, and Erie Beach didn't have roller skating?
E.K:
I
S.R:
Did Fort Erie have roller skating at all?
E.K:
Not that I know of.
S.R:
Oh, so the only place you could roller skate then was to either go
don't remember it if they did.
I
don't think they had.
to Erie Beach or probably Buffalo?
E.K:
You did it on the street. We did it on the street always, yeah
•..
the sidewalks.
S.R:
E.K:
(
Were the sidewalks cement sidewalks?
Yes, well they . . .
but then they . . .
I
I
can remember when they had just wooden planks,
remember them . . . maybe when
years old, they were ... well, before
I
(19)
I
was about 10
was 10, they put the concrete
�(
ones down, because I remember I was roller skating then, and we
had the nice roads.
S.R:
Nice sidewalks.
E.K:
Nice sidewalks, not roads.
S.R:
How did you get to Erie Beach and Crystal Beach ?
E.K:
Erie Beach, we walked down to the ferry, what we called the ferry,
and then we took this little train up to Erie Beach. I imagine it
would take about 15-20 minutes, it didn't go very fast. There was
an engine and then there were, maybe three or four little coaches,
you know, onto it.
S.R:
E.K:
Is that the Peanut or the . . . ?
Yeah.
S.R:
It was that one ?
E.K:
Or they called it . . . what did I say before? Well, they called it the
Peanut too, I remember that.
S.R:
E.K:
(
The Snakehill
Yeah, something like that. Snakehill . . . I don't remember.
S.R:
How did you get to Crystal Beach ?
E.K:
Crystal Beach I had to . .. someone had to take us, unless we went
&
Pacific?
to Buffalo. We had to go to Buffalo and then we had to take the
streetcars then, up town, then go to the dock where you'd have
to . . . what's the ferry? I don't think many people did it. See, I only
did it when I went to stay with my cousins in Buffalo, and they
would go over on the Americana or the Canadiana.
S.R:
Could you describe the Americana and the Canadiana?
E.K:
Oh, they were big boats. They seemed awfully big to me then.
But, they were big boats, yes. They were lovely too. When you
come home at night, when I was young, they had music on them,
you know. That was a treat.
S.R:
Was it someplace where you would take your dates and stuff like
that?
E.K:
To Erie Beach mostly. Then we used to walk down and get the
train, as I say, to get there. That was a mile from my home down
to the train anyway, and then you'd take the train and go up there.
(
We did it lots though.
S.R:
You were just used to walking and never thought anything of that
(20)
�(
part of it, righ t ?
E.K:
No. As I say, I would walk so fast, and ... actually, I had to walk
fast because you had to walk fast if you wanted to get there, where
you were going, you know.
S.R:
Did you use the ferries much, or the Dummy?
E.K:
Yes, an awful lot, yeah.
S.R:
Do you recall any of the m ?
E.K:
I went to Buffalo an awful lot because my mother came from there
�nd she came from a large family, and we went over a lot, so I've
often went over three times in one day. You wouldn't think anything
of it. That was in later years though.
S.R:
Was that still when you had to use the ferry, or the Peace Bridge?
E.K:
Well, more so after we had the car, we went over on the Peace
Bridge. One of my sons would say, "Come on ma, let's go over to
Buffalo and do some shopping, grocery shopping". In the afternoon
the other son would say, "Come on, let's go over and do a little
grocery shopping". And maybe in the evening we would go over,
my husband and I, with somebody, or we would go over to see someone,
our cousins or something.
S.R:
The Peace Bridge, do you recall anything about the building or the
opening of the Peace Bridge?
E.K:
Well, yes I do. Edwin was a . . . or, Gary was a baby then, so that
.
was in . . '29 was it that the Peace Bridge opened?
S.R:
I think it was opened in 1927. You had told me before that your
worked on the Peace Bridge, when.they:. wentbuUding it.:-,�_:::-:::-:.
E.K:
Yes he did. He had been laid off of the railroad, and it was between
times, when he went on the Police Force, and he'd do anything to
get a job so we had a little something coming in.
S.R:
What did he do building the Peace Bridge?
E.K:
I don't remember anymore in construction work. He worked at
the hospital too, I know, when they were building that, because
that was at the same time.
S.R:
E.K:
(
Were you at the Peace Bridge Opening ?
No more than to go down to see the parade.
S.R:
Oh, right along the Boulevard?
E.K:
Yes, when they came along the Boulevard, because we waited and
(21)
�waited and waited. I had three little youngsters, and I waited.
(
They were so tired, you know, because it didn't mean anything to
them. And then it just went through like that (a snap of the finger) .
We didn't know who was who, it went through so fast, but I remember
that. I can remember it all though, you know.
S.R:
You said your husband also worked at building the hospital?
E.K:
He did, yeah.
S.R:
Do you remember anything about that?
E.K:
Oh yeah, because he wasn't working at that time, you see, and I
had rented my rooms to men working up there, you know. So he
had no work and they said come on up. One of them had him working
for him and he worked . . . well, I don't know what his job was. It
was the construction of it, you know, inside.
S.R:
Carpentry work?
E.K:
Yeah, like that and the plastering and all that. I can remember
him telling about the plastering, and all that work, you know.
S.R:
(
Yeah, that's carpentry.
E.K:
Yeah, it would come under that I suppose.
S.R:
Do you know why they built the hospital there, or any of the politics
involved with the hospital?
E.K:
Oh, that was Doc Douglas, he donated the property . . . well, he donated
.
the property, but he didn't . . I don't know . . . he donated at the top
of the hill where that big house is, right over here on Bertie, yeah .
Then it wasn't big enough . . . it wasn't big enough. You know, it's
big enough for the hospital maybe, but not big enough for any parking
or anything, so then they got that property up here. I don't know
who owned that, or how they got that, but Doc Douglas . . . well,
he was the instigator of it anyway, of the Douglas Hospital, so it's
named after him of course. He ushered me into this world, Doc
Douglas, and
I
had him, I remember I had him until my first baby
was . . . before our first baby was born, then we didn't have him.
He was getting pretty old and feeble.
S.R:
Is there anything else good that Doc Douglas did for the Town that
you can recall?
(
E.K:
He was a good man all the way around, I don't know, I don't know . . .
Douglas School,
I
wonder i f h e donated that land then. I imagine
(22)
�he must have. I don't know how come he owned so much property.
(
He did a lot of good though.
S.R:
He was just a good doctor. Was he the only doctor that Fort Erie
had ?
E.K:
Yes, he was the only one they had for a long time, then Doc Mencke
came, we had him.
S.R:
What about Dr. Streets, when was that or was that years later?
E.K:
That was years later when the hospital was built. He went to school
_when I did.
S.R:
When you were younger you-worked, you mentioned that you worked
at the Shipyards. . . ?
E.K:
I worked from the time they opened . . . before they opened I was
there, until they closed. I was there after they closed, that was
three years. Then I went to the Shipyards . . . or the Horton Steel,
and worked for two years before I was married.
S.R:
E.K:
(
Back then, after people were married did very many ladies work ?
Not many.
S.R:
Was it frowned upon ?
E.K:
Well it was, yes, because men should have the work then, you know.
I think maybe that if they had some of that today they wouldn't
have so much unemployment, would they? But I think it's a shame
when a woman has a good . . . something, you know, she's gifted with
something, which a good many are, to give it up . . . school teachers,
or whatever it happens to be. I didn't work, but I don't frown on
it. I have no objection to women working, whatever, I think it's
wonderful.
S.R:
When you look at the prices of housing and stuff like that, and what
it is to raise a family now.H.
E.K:
And there isn't that much work to do at home like there was in
those days. A woman needed to be home then to do that work.
Now she presses a button for everything and here we are.
S.R:
How were working women treated when they worked, with respect?
B.K:
At work you mean, or at home . . . or otherwise?
S.R:
Both.
B.K:
Well, at work I think they were always respected very much, you
know. I don't think they treated you as an equal, I think they treated
(23)
�(
you as a . . . oh, what would I say. I don't know.
S.R:
Like a little pet?
E.K:
Yeah, I think that's what they did with me at the Shipyard, yeah.
S.R:
What were the wages like?
E.K:
Well, I started at $15 a week, and that was good pay, that was really
good pay, that was, in 1 917.
S.R:
Was it because it was the Shipyards that it paid so good, or were
women just paid well?
E.K:
Oh, I don't know. I really don't know that. I know from what others
had said where they worked, I was getting more then they were.
S.R:
I heard that different people went to the Shipyards because they
were paying so good, t.h e men's jobs, that was why I asked.
E.K:
Gee,
I
worked on the payroll and I knew all their pays. That was
one of my many jobs, at first.
S.R:
Is there anything else that you could think of that you ¥{ould like
to talk about?
E.K:
(
I don't know.
S.R:
You have something more that you would like to say about the Racetrack?
E.K:
Well, that's . . . you know with the houses there, and how we remember
the races, .and they'd go past with the buses, you know, all the people.
The women were all dressed up so, you know.
S.R:
You said you lived on the corner of Concession and Catherine, and
there were how many houses there?
E.K:
Nine.
S.R:
And none of them are there anymore?
E.K:
No, not a one. Some were moved and some torn down.
S.R:
Could you explain why?
E.K:
Only that they wanted the
. • .
the Racetrack bought all that property
up, and behind it, you know, they did have that. It was Madigan,
he was a . . . whatever he would have been on the Racetrack at the
time, M r. M adigan. He had a nice house up there, behind us then.
S.R:
Then they needed that for parking ·space.
E.K:
Oh, what have they there now. They have some kind of a house
there yet, in there, but not on the row of houses where I'm at, you
know, that was on Bertie. Then they used to bring the horses, some
of the jockeys would bring the horses down to our yard to graze,
(24)
�(
you know. Gee, I thought that was great when they'd bring them
down.
S.R:
What did you do at the Racetrack? What was there to see ?
E.K:
Horses, and more horses.
S.R:
Now they have a beautiful grounds, they have the grandstand, and
the restaurants and everything?
E.K:
There wasn't all that there then. It burnt, and then they rebuilt
it, you know. Well, they rebuilt it, but not like it is today. That's
been done since again, you know, several times.
S.R:
When did it burn?
E.K:
Oh, it must have been around 1900, 19 . . . they were rebuilding it
ih 1905 I know. I can remember that because a man, one of the
bosses stayed with us, and his wife, and he had a little boy, and
that's why
I
can remember them. It was a little boy about my own
age, you know, and we would play. But that wasn't when the races
were on, that was before the races were coming, and he was so
anxious to get it done on time. That was the spring of 1905.
{
S.R:
Is there anything else that you can remember about the Racetrack
that you'd like to mention?
E.K:
No, I don't really know.
S.R:
Thank you for the interview Mrs. Kent.
E.K:
It was very enjoyable.
S.R:
Thank you.
(25)
�
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Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
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FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
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Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Shelley Richer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Esther Kent
Location
The location of the interview.
Mrs. Kent's home at 115 Lavinia Street, Fort Erie
Original Format
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Cassette tape
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Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Kent, Esther
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Esther Kent's interview. She discusses such topics as:
Amigari
Schools
North End
Churches
Buffalo
Recreation
St. Paul's Anglican Church
Law Enforcement
Politics and government
Technology
Stores
Railroad
Racetrack
Erie Beach
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Ractrack
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
September 20, 1985
1980s
1985
Amigari
Buffalo
churches
Erie Beach
Fort Erie
north end
Oral history
politics and government
racetrack
railroad
recreation
restaurants and bars
schools
st. paul's anglican church
technology
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/69f783a21ededabe845c42018ddaa282.pdf
83c8ed66d68b7e6faf26dac423215a7b
PDF Text
Text
This is Rose Hearn interviewing Mrs. Gladys Jewson in her home
at
1918
Nigh Road, Ridgeway, Ontario, and the date is July
29,
1985.
R.H:
Good morning Mrs. Jewson.
G.J:
Good morning.
R.H:
Could you please tell me when you were born?
G.J:
Yes,
R.H:
Do you remember what month?
G.J:
June
R.H:
And could you tell me where you were born?
G.J:
In Fort Erie. Well it's Fort Erie now but it was Bridgeburg then.
R.H:
What was it like then?
1900.
14, 1900.
What was the neighbourhood like then, the
streets?
G.J:
I can't tell you about that, but it was it was different than now,
as far as that goes.
R.H:
Were the streets paved?
G.J:
Oh no, they were dirt roads, and no sewers or anything.
R.H:
What kind of stores were there?
G.J:
Oh yes) there was stores, Hays, the Hays Store was there, the grocery
{
store, and Mitchell's was the bakery. My mother used to send me
down there for a loaf of bread and we got it for 5 cents. Five cents
for a loaf of bread and it would be warm, fresh baked.
R.H:
Was that Jarvis Street?
G.J:
Yeah, that was Jarvis Street.
R.H:
And as you say the roads were all dirt roads, but was there sidewalks?
G.J:
Yes there was other kind, wood sidewalks. I don't know an awful
lot about that.
R.H:
What school did you go to?
G.J:
Rose Seaton. I passed the entrance, then my father sold out and
moved up here, around here.
R.H:
Do you remember how old you were when you moved up to the farm?
G.J:
Yes I was twelve years old. I passed the entrance that year, and
I went to high school from then on.
R.H:
Was Rose Seaton called Phipps Street School when you went there?
G.J:
Yes.
R.H:
Do you remember any of your teachers?
G.J:
Well the Gerrards.
One was called Jane Gerrard.
(1)
�R.H:
G.J:
(
What was the other name?
Helen.
R.H:
Do you remember what the school was like, was it a large or a small
school?
G.J:
We considered it then quite large, but of course they got larger
after that.
R.H:
Did you live far from the school, did you have to walk a long way?
G.J:
No, my father bought the lot right straight across from the school,
and we built a home there, we built us a new home.
I just had to
cross the road to go to school.
R.H:
So you lived right on Phipps Street?
G.J:
Right on Phipps Street all the time, and I was born on Phipps Street
by the river and then we moved up, farther up north.
was the principal of the school.
Mr. Hansel
It was a continuation school, no
high school then at all, just in the one room, and when you passed
the entrance why you went into this room that was...
R.H:
G.J:
No, no, no.
R.H:
(
Did you have uniforms when you went to school?
So you moved to the farm when you were twelve?
G.J:
Yes we moved here and right just across the road I still own 45
acres. Mr. Tribble bought it, and he was going to move from Buffalo
over here you know. . .
R.H:
Mr. Tribble?
G.J:
The real estate man.
He bought the farm and my parents moved
back to Fort Erie. They lived on Lavinia Street then.
We moved
back there.
R.H:
So there was �o electricity in this farm when you came here, was
there?
G.J:
No, there was no electricity'till it came, but oh dear I don't remember
what year.
R.H:
Was that in the twenties?
G.J:
I imagine it would be. Beverly probably has it in there.
(Mrs. Jewson
is referring to her daughter-in-law's family history book),
R.H:
Before you had electricity, did you have gas?
G.J:
We had gas.
R.H:
Gas lights?
G.J:
Gas lights, yes.
(2)
�R.H:
Were they like filters or mantles, did you use filters?
G.J:
Well, they had mantles.
R.H:
And you had to light them with a match?
G.J:
The gas lights, yes.
R.H:
And then the electricity came in?
G.J:
Yes we got the electricity through... Beverly may have it in there.
(Mrs.
Jewson is again referring to the family history book)
Just
show me the book for a minute or two. Now that's Grandpa Jewson,
he came out here as a young man in 1880, and his father followed
him out here.
R.H:
Where did they come from?
G.J:
England.
R.H:
They were English, were they?
G.J:
English yes, and his father followed him out here, and this land
was a Crown Grant to the town of Fort Erie at the time of the
war between the States and...
R.H:
G.J:
1812 yeah.
R.H:
Did they tell you anything about the Fenian raids or anything?
G.J:
No, I don't know.
R.H:
So they got this land?
G.J:
(
The Civil War or was it the War of 1812?
It was a Crown Grant to one of the captains that was in Fort Erie
when the war was on, and he sold it to...Grandpa Jewson bought
it.
Grandpa Jewson came out and bought the farm here then.
R.H:
And was this the farm that you came to live at then.
G.J:
Yes, I came here in 1919 and I was married in 1919.
R.H:
How old were you when you got married?
G.J:
I was nineteen.... my oldest son was born in 1919 and my other son
was born in 1921.
R.H:
G.J:
A Dr. Mencke.
R.H:
Dr. Mencke?
G.J:
He came out here from Fort Erie 'cause I had no...
R.H:
So your child was born at home?
G.J:
(
Did you have a doctor then, and did you go to a doctor?
Oh all my children were born at home.
R.H:
And they were all born in this house, and how many children did
Oh yeah I've heard his name, was he your doctor?
you have?
(3)
�G.J:
Four, three boys and a girl. The oldest boy was... he went to college
that year my daughter was born so he was eighteen years old.
(
R.H:
That was quite a difference in age, right?
G.J:
She is the
R.H:
She is the youngest?
G.J:
Yes.
•••
Ted is the youngest son, and Joanne is six years younger than
Ted.
R.H:
You went to square dances did you when you were
G.J:
Yeah, we went to square dances.
R.H:
Where did they hold them?
•..
?
Do you know the place where they held
them?
G.J:
R.H:
Did they have them in the house, in the homes, oh did they?
G.J:
Yes we did.
R.H:
Oh did they, in the Iiving room?
G.J:
If you had a big room.
R.H:
Did you hire fiddlers?
G.J:
Yes, there was always somebody to fiddle, and somebody to chord.
R.H:
And somebody to do the calling?
G.J:
Yes.
R.H:
Were they every Saturday, every weekend, or almost
G.J:
(
We used to have them around the homes.
No, no, mostly in the winter 'round in the different homes, we'd
.•.
?
just have it.
R.H:
Do you remember any of the names of the fiddlers or the callers?
G.J:
No I don't.
R.H:
Do you remember any bad storms during the winter?
G.J:
Yes we had snow, and we were snowed in for quite a long time
during the winter.
R.H:
Was that way back?
were bad?
Was that when you were younger the winters
Did you find when you were younger that they were
worse?
G.J:
Well I don't know whether they were or not.
Of course we didn't
drive cars in the winter then.
R.H:
You drove horse and buggy?
G.J:
Yeah, horses. My husband had a young team, small team, small
horses you know and he used to drive them
•••
(
agent, he sold insurance on farms.
(4)
he was an insurance
�R.H:.
Was his office at home?
G.J:
Yes, he just worked out of his home, and Ted is doing the same
(
thing.
R.H:
What is the name of his insurance
G.J:
Fort Erie Insurance.
R.H:
Is that in Fort Erie?
G.J:
He does all kinds of insurance, he does fire, and he does all kinds
of insurance, hospital, car
his father didn't
•••
..•
•••
?
car insurance, Ted does all kinds, but
his father just did fire insurance. Bertie and
Willoughby it was called at that time.
R.H:
This was called Bertie?
And what was the main road then, do you
remember what the main road was when you were young at that
time?
Was Nigh Road the main road?
G.J:
Nigh Road and Garrison Road.
R.H:
Was Garrison Road built up then?
G.J:
Not like it is now.
R.H:
Did you sell any of your farm produce?
G.J:
Yeah the milk truck used to come, and we sold milk 'cause we had
jersey cattle.
(
R.H:
You had jersey cattle, did you?
G.J:
We had jersey cattle and they liked the jersey milk, the customers
did.
The holstein mirk wasn't so rich.
R.H:
So the milk truck used to come here and pick up the milk?
G.J:
We used to set the milk out on the standout at the bottom of the
road, and they'd come and pick it up every morning.
R.H:
Do you remember the name of that dairy?
Was that a dairy you
sold it to?
G.J:
R.H:
The Ridge Dairy?
G.J:
That was Ridgeway, and this was Bridgeburg.
R.H:
So that would be the Fort Erie Dairy?
G.J:
Yeah.
R.H:
Did you ever go on the ferry-boats?
G.J:
Oh yes, I used to drive the car over there.
R.H:
You had a car?
G.J:
(
Fort Erie Dairy, or it was the Ridge Dairy, I don't know what.
Oh yeah we had a Ford, a Model T, and I used to take the kids to
Buffalo and I never thought anything of it, now I'd be surprised
'cause now I probably wouldn't touch it.
(5)
�R.H:
What did you pay to get on the ferry-boats, can you remember
how much you paid to get on?
(
G.J:
No, I don't remember that.
R.H:
Do you remember the names of any of the ferry-boats?
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
The Toledo, I can remember that.
Did you go to Erie Beach?
Oh yeah, Erie Beach was the thing, they built that dancehall there.
We'd go up to the swimming pool.
R.H:
Did you go dancing there?
G.J:
Oh yeah, we used to go dancing at Erie Beach.
R.H:
What was it like?
Tell me about it, can you tell me what it was
like there?
G.J:
R.H:
What do you mean, at Erie Beach or. . .
No, the dancehall.
What was i t like?
O r what i t was like at the
beach, whatever you want to do?
G.J:
Oh I don't know, I didn't think much about it really.
G.J:
Do you remember any of the bands, the names of the bands?
G.J:
Crystal Beach used to get the big name bands, and they used to
go to Crystal Beach.
(
R.H:
Did you go on any of the trains, the little trains that ran. . . ?
G.J:
I went to high school by train you know, and the train that ran right
along the lake front, it would drive to Ridgeway High School, and
there was a little bus . . . a little station, and it stopped at all the
crossroads like, and it went all the way up to school.
That's how
I went to high school.
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
.
Do you know how long it took you to get there?
Not very long.
I just had to be out there at half past eight.
And the little train picked you up?
Yeah.
Do you remember what Ridgeway High School was like then?
Yes, it was just a continuation school 'cause it just started in
R H:
Do you remember any of the teachers there?
G.J:
No.
R.H:
Or the principal, do you know who the principal was?
G.J:
No I don't remember.
R.H:
How about the Bertie Fair, do you remember the Bertie Fair?
(
(6)
.• .
�G.J:
Yes I do.
We used to go to the Bertie Fair, and as a matter of fact
we used to have a bed around the old Townhall.
(
R.H:
Did you sell anything there at all, or what did they do there?
did they have there?
Do you know what it was like there?
What
Did they
have contests?
G.J:
At the Bertie Fair?
No I don't remember much about that.
R.H:
How did you get there, was it by car?
G.J:
Oh yeah we got a car at that time.
R.H:
And you used to drive that to the Bertie Fair?
G.J:
We had a Model T.
Yes.
R.H:
Was it on for a week, do you remember how long it was on for?
G.J:
Oh the Bertie Fair was only on for one day.
R.H:
G.J:
Oh!
It was only one day?
And was it in the Fall?
Yeah, school fairs, they used to have school fairs.
The government
supplied seeds for the kids to plant, and then they showed them
at the school fairs.
R.H:
And when you were living in the farmhouse, did you have a telephone?
G.J:
Yes we had Bertie Telephone.
R.H:
(
G.J:
Did you have a telephone in the house?
Yes, but as I said if you wanted to phone out of town, a distance,
you had to go to Sexsmith's.
He had Bell.
This was Welland County
Telephone that we had.
R.H:
Oh you had Welland County, I didn't know that, and was the phone
just for local calls?
G.J:
Yes, it was all party lines and it had rings. So many rings for each
person.
R.H:
And when you'd dial, did you have to get the operator?
G.J:
No, they just rang you.
You knew the rings for the neighbours you
know, to call.
R.H:
So if you wanted to make a long-distance call you had to go to Sexsmith's,
and where did he live?
G.J:
Yes.
He lived south of the creek.
R.H:
Was that far from where you lived?
G.J:
No, no,. just at six mile creek.
R.H:
Could you tell me about some of the chores you did on the farm,
like what did you make?
(
G.J:
Oh I always smoked the meat, and you know we butchered our own
(7)
�beef and pigs.
R.H:
(
Did you have a smokehouse?
G.J:
Yes, and we still got 1t l think.
I don't know, I think it's still out
the back, but I don't get out anymore.
R.H:
G.J:
You had an ice-house I believe?
Yeah it was part of the house, a room that became the wood-house
after that.
R.H:
G.J:
Is that where you kept the milk and things like that?
The ice-house?
No I had an ice-box, and the ice man came around
and put ice under there.
R.H:
Do you remember the name of the ice company that came and delivered
the ice?
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
Do you remember the name of the man who used to ...?
Gorham used to bring the ice to us.
Do you remember when the Peace Bridge opened?
Yes I do.
R.H:
G.J:
Yes that was quite a day when we got the Peace Bridge.
R.H:
Can you tell me about that day, did you see the Prince of Wales?
G.J:
Oh I imagine I did, but I can't remember anything about that.
R.H:
Was it a big celebration?
G.J:
(
So you remember the Peace Bridge, when that opened?
Oh yes, I would say there was a lot of people.
Was there a lot of people?
R.H:
Did they have marching bands?
G.J:
No, I don't know that.
R.H:
How long have you lived here Mrs. Jewson?
G.J:
Since 1919. I just came across the road.
We lived on the farm across
the road there, and then after I was married my father sold out
to Mr. Tribble the real-estate man, and he subdivided that farm
and that's Buffalo Heights now.
R.H:
Did you have many neighbours around you?
G.J:
Oh yes our neighbour who died last sunday Lawrence Rohe, their
farm ran the same as my husbands.
R.H:
G.J:
Who else was your neighbours, who did you go square dancing with?
Oh yeah there was family down the road, the McGaw's, they had
quite a big family and we used to like to go to the McGaw's.
R.H:
(
Was there anyone else you liked to visit?
G.J:
Oh we went around the farms, and different places around.
R.H:
And what about card parties, did you have card parties?
(8)
�G.J:
R.H:
What kind of card games did you play?
G.J:
Euchre.
R.H:
So you went to a lot of card parties?
G.J:
(
Oh yeah we used to go and play cards.
Oh yeah in the winter, the neighbours used to come in and they'd
.
I wasn't much on bridge, I didn't care much for that.
play cards.
R.H:
You didn't have tractors then, did you?
G.J:
Our first tractor had steel wheels, they didn't have rubber.
R.H:
What did you use before that?
G .J:
R.H:
Horses.
What other chores did you do, tell me about the chores you did?
What you did?
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
Well I used to do lots of things around the farm.
Did you do a lot of canning too?
Yes I canned...
( Mrs.
Jewson is looking at the family history book again) . Is this
the horses your husband had?
G.J:
Yes this was our team, they were Sorrels with a light mane you
know.
(
R.H:
How long would a team of horses last?
G.J:
Oh we had a team for a long time until we got tractors and then. . .
R.H:
And did they cost a lot of money, the horses?
G.J:
No they didn't.
R.H:
G.J:
They didn't cost too much?
Well not so much as they do nowadays.
R.H:
No, but have you any idea?
G.J:
I can't tell you.
R.H:
Was it hundreds?
G.J:
Oh yes I suppose it would be a hundred dollars.
R.H:
One hundred dollars for a horse?
G.J:
I imagine so...
R.H:
When you moved in here, did two families live in here?
G.J:
Yes we put a partition across our living room.
They had the kitchen,
and that's my bedroom now.
R.H:
G.J:
(
So you had two families here and was that your husband's parents?
My husbands parents, and then they moved to Ridgeway and we
had the whole house, and our family was growing then you see.
(9)
�R.H:
G.J:
(
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
Your parents still lived in Fort Erie?
Yes Fort Erie on Lavinia Street.
Did you go visit them a lot?
Well they visited us a lot.
Did you see the changes in the N orthend?
Oh yes some.
Once the Peace Bridge opened why Fort Erie changed.
Bridgeburg changed.
R.H:
Did you stop using the ferry-boats then, and start using the bridge
then to go to Buffalo?
G.J:
Yeah we used to use the bridge, but as long as the ferry-boats run
we'd use that too.
R.H:
What were the ferry-boats like, do you remember?
G.J:
They were just ferry-boats that's all.
R.H:
I've never seen one.
G.J:
Well they would just load the cars in on them.
R.H:
Where did you pick it up?
Do you know the name of the dock where
you picked it up, where you went to get the ferry-boat?
G.J:
R.H:
(
Yeah it was right at the end of the . . . oh I can't tell you now.
Was it Niagara Boulevard?
G.J:
Yeah.
R.H:
Do you remember what Niagara Boulevard was like, do you remember
what it was like there?
The streets?
(Mrs. is looking at the family history book)
G.J:
No I don't.
R.H:
Your husband was in politics?
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
Yes he was . . . oh what do you call that . . .
Council, on the Council?
On the Council, yeah.
The Town Council?
Yeah.
R.H:
For Bridgeburg?
G.J:
No for Bertie.
R.H:
Oh for Bertie Township?
G.J:
He was a Councilman but never for Bridgeburg.
R.H:
Who was the Mayor when he was the Councilman?
G.J:
Hersh·ey. The Hershey's lived out here on Rosehill Road.
R.H:
(
Did you get involved with his politics?
G.J:
No, not particularly...(Mrs. Jewson is looking at the book)
(10)
She should
�have some pictures of some snow
•••
R.H:
(
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
What is that? ·(Pointing to photograph of an antique washer)
A wooden washer.
Is that what you used?
Yes that was mine.
It was the one used in the home in
1919.
R.H:
So you used a wooden washer?
G.J:
It wasn't electric you see, I had to work it by hand. There's the
cream separater. We used to put the milk through that every time
and take the cream out.
R.H:
You took the cream out with that, you separated the cream from
·
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
(Mrs. Jewson is looking at objects in book)
the milk, did you?
Yeah...and that old stove is still up the back stairs up in the storeroom.
Is that what you did your cooking on?
No, no, no, that was our heater... (Mrs. Jewson is looking at photographs
of various objects in book)
gaslight fixtures.
See there's a lot of gaslights, original
There's an electric meter on the outside pantry
wall, yeah that's just a meter.
telephone.
R.H:
(
G.J:
R.H:
G.J:
(Still looking at book) That's the
The attic stairs going up toward the hired hand's room.
You had a hired man working for you?
We always had a hired man.
So you had hired men to do the chores?
Yeah they helped with the chores, and they worked for a dollar
a day then and with their meals.
R.H:
G.J:
And they lived right here?
Well some of them did.
We paid twenty dollars a month for a hired
·man that lived in.
R.H:
G.J:
R.H:
How many did you have at a time?
We just had one.
You just had one at a time, and were they local people, or did they
come from out of town?
G.J:
R.H:
Usually they were local.
Did you have any girls working for you?
G.J:
Yeah, I used to have some come in.
R.H:
What did they do?
G.J:
Whatever you asked them to do.
R.H:
(
G.J:
I mean, what kind of work did they do?
They did everything, they helped with the house...
(11)
�R.H:
G.J:
(
R.H:
(Looking at the book again)
This is a Crown Grant?
Yes.
From King George
1 1 1,
fascinating.
What's the log house, (pointing
to photograph in book)
do you know anything about the log house?
G.J:
Where do you see that?
(Looking at book)
R.H:
It says the site of the original log house.
G.J:
This is the site of original log house.
that was
•..
Was this a log house before...?
Oh yeah that's the old cellar
where the garden is now down along the orchard.
R.H:
There was a log house there, was there?
G.J:
Yes that's all I ever saw of the log house, was the cellar that was
there. The old cellar...
R.H:
What did you keep in the ice-house?
G.J:
Out the back door there
R.H:
And that's where you kept...
G.J:
They cut the ice out of the quarries or out of the lake in the winter
Where was the ice-house?
•..
and brought it in and packed it in sawdust, and then that's the way
we used to get our ice then, until we had the ice man come out
later.
R.H:
(
Oh that was an improvement over the other.
lake and get the ice?
Who had to go to the
Your husband, did he have to go and get it
himself?
G.J:
Yes, and the neighbours.
so they would help.
Everybody helped. Each one had an ice-house
Each one helped the other.
R.H:
They brought it back on the buggy, the horse and buggy?
G.J:
Sleighs.
R.H:
Sleighs!
G.J:
Oh, big sleighs we had.
R.H:
Yes I guess you would have to, wouldn't you?
G.J:
We sure did.
R.H:
Yeah, and you went out on the sleighs to get what you needed?
G.J:
Yes.
R.H:
Did you use them also for fun times?
G.J:
Yes.
R.H:
Did you use them for going visiting too?
G.J:
Oh yes sometimes
R.H:
Did you have an outhouse?
G.J:
Oh yes.
Oh you had sleighs for the wintertime, did you?
•••
(U)
�R.H:
G.J:
No, no, no, we had an outhouse out the back
R.H:
When did you get the plumbing in?
G.J:
Oh dear I can't remember that.
R.H:
Maybe in the 40's?
G.J:
(
Did you have indoor plumbing here when you moved in?
Probably, has she got it in there that it was in the 40's when we
•••
got the plumbing. (Mrs. Jewson is referring to the book again).
R.H:
It says (in the book) 1945,1950, when the water came into the sink.
You got the water into the sink in the kitchen in 1950, and before
that you had no indoor plumbing. That must have been tough.
How
did you get your water, from a pump?
G.J:
Right there, (Mrs. J ewson is pointing to an old water pump outside
the house) and it still works.
R.H:
Yeah, and that's where you got your water?
G.J:
That's where we got the water, from a cistern. There's a cistern
underneath the house.
R.H:
G.J:
I'd heat it for washing, and bathing.
R.H:
'
And you'd have to heat it on the stove for... ?
Did you have a big tub for the baths?
G.J:
Yes...
R.H:
Thank-you very much for the interview Mrs. Jewson.
(13:)
�
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Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
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Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Rose Hearn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Gladys Jewson
Location
The location of the interview.
Mrs. Jewson's home at 1918 Nigh Road, Ridgeway.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Jewson, Gladys
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Gladys Jewson's interview.She discusses such topics as:
Bridgeburg
Schools
Stores
Technology
Farming
Ferries
Erie Beach
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Peace Bridge
Recreation
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Times
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
July 29, 1985
1980s
1985
Bridgeburg
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
ferries
north end
Oral history
peace bridge
recreation
ridgeway
schools
stores and businesses
technology
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/5cce50d4cbb1e9d153789514fd2249dd.pdf
6bdc7fdcd11a5701a5502c737a7e2f14
PDF Text
Text
This is Neil Flindall intervie w ing Mrs. Rtta Honey, in her home at the Senior
Citizen's Building, on Albany Road, Fort Erie, May 29, 1985.
N.F:
Mrs. Honey, when did you first arrive in Fort Erie?
R.H:
We arrived in Canada, from Scotland on August ll, 1925.
N.F:
That is a little bit of time ago.
R.H:
It will soon be sixty years, yes.
N.F:
Did you stay in this area, Fort Erie?
R.H:
Yes I've always lived here.
N.F:
What did you think when you first arrived?
R.H:
I was more or less shocked, because I had come from a city, you
know , and coming here at that time they w ere just paving the boulevard
and there were no other paved streets.
N .F:
And you took the "Ferry" across?
R.H:
Yes, oh yes.
N.F:
Was it well operated and well run?
R.H:
Oh, yes, it was great, there was no problem at all. And then you
just walk up to Niagara Street, in Buffalo, land take the bus, no,
the streetcar then.
N.F:
They had full transportation over there that you could use?
R.H:
Oh, yes sure, and I worked in Buffalo from October 1925 till 1929.
N.F:
(
Did you have any problems crossing the bridge, because you were
an American Citizen?
R.H:
.
Not at that time, but in, I think it was 1927 . . I'm not too sure, they
started fussing a bit. You had to ... go, to make a "Formal Entry",
and pay a head tax.
N.F:
A head tax?
R.H:
Yes a ten dollar head tax, _a ncl�hen they gave you a card with your
.
picture on'it; and t he inform atibn, and we carried that with us all
the time.
N.F:
How much would a head tax be?
R.H:
Ten dollars, just for, just the one time.
N.F:
Then that was a one time payment, and after it was done?
R.H:
And then after
•••
when people were going over there, I think still
they pay a head tax.
N.F:
(
"a tax on every head".
That is an interesting idea. Were there always the same people
who worked for Customs and Immigration that you would get to
know ?
1
�R.H:
Yes we did get to know the Custom and Immigration Officers then.
N.F:
I can imagine there would be a difference; I would think they'd be
(
more relaxed in their job then in comparision to now.
R.H:
Yes, that's right, and one reason I think was, there weren't that
many stores here, you couldn't shop here really,for anything. ..there
was a furniture store here, Atwood's on Jarvis Street ...and grocery
stores, but there wasn't much in the way of clothing stores. So
we shopped quite a bit in Buffalo in those days, and so, they didn't
mind, you know, they seemed to understand.
Everyone didn't have
a car and it wasn't easy to go to Hamilton or someplace.
N.F:
Who were the major storekeepers jn Fort Erie, like Fort Erie South?
R.H:
Well. . . Rubels had a grocery store... and I presume it was their nephew
had the Rubel's Store in Ridgeway just recently, yes, they had a
store where...oh there is a restraunt there now, but it used to be
Carom's Drug Store, on the east side of Niagara Boulevard, that
was a double store, you know, a door in the centre and enter both
ways.
And John Charles had a clothing store where the 'Salvation
Army' is now. Oh, and then Scotty Miller had a little paper store,
abour where, let's see, where the Dutch Shop is now, in there somewhere.
(
He was the father of John Miller, who plays the bagpipes in the
Scotch Band, and those are the same bagpipes his father had at
the time you know, way back then, and he used to ... when he closed
his store late at night, he would play the bagpipes ... walk up and
down the riverside playing his bagpipes. Well this was lovely because
it was far enough away ... out of doors. . . so it was very nice. And
John... the Pipe Band...was here playing for us a year or so ago.. . and
John told me that those were.hls Jather's pipes.
N.F:
R.H:
N.F:
R.H:
.
•;;.
f
Did you travel to-Bridgeburg -
-
... ·-�,
.
Oh, yes.
By the International Bridge.
You mean across?
No the International Bridge went across to Black
Rock.
N.F:
R.H:
Yes I mean did you go up and shop in that area.
Yes, sometimes we went to the North End, but well by the time
I wasn't working in Buffalo anymore, we had a car then and we'd
drive down.
(
2
�N.F:
Was there more shopping---or larger stores?
R.H:
Let's see now. . . there was a man had a tailor shop up there but he
did tailoring, you know, he used to make suits for my father. There
(
was an old Dominion Store there run by, did you remember, Wilfred
Kline--his mother --it was just a small store, you know, but it was
a Dominion Store.
Mrs Kline ran that, Wilfred used to help her,
they didn't have any other help, so you can imagine the size of it,
the store.
Let's see now, there was the Gas Company, and ... the
Chinese Restruant was where, Rossman's was until recently, thats
where it was...I can't remember the Chinaman's name.
N.F:
Would that have been "Skippy"?
R.H:
I believe it was, yes and then he moved across the street, yes and
then lots came down to this end.
N.F:
Do you remember a sign of his place?
R.H:
There was a sign I'm sure, but I don't really remember.
N.F:
Where did you live in Fort Erie?
R.H:
We lived right opposite the Peace Bridge entrance, in fact we watched
the Peace Bridge go up. You know, up on the hill, Agnew's store
was down on Goderich Street, and we lived up above that. In a house
right on the hill, it was a lovely place, but they took that property
(
all away, took that hill down when they put the "Queen E" through.
N.F:
Oh, that's right yes.
R.H:
And there was a restraunt built there about the time that they
were building the Peace Bridge, it was built by a man in Buffalo,
it was a big brick building that finally the Artillery used it, after
a while, do yo.u . rem.ember that?
N.F:
That is what they started to use·Jpr the Militia.
R.H:
Yes,
N.F:
That stood for a long time.
R.H:
Y
es, it was there for a long time.
..�r
r
It was interesting here then, it
was a small town, but we had access to Buffalo, and you know, that
made it ... Buffalo was a nice city then we were able to go over to
shows, and things like that.
N.F:
Would most of your recreation or entertainment come from Buffalo
instead of the local area?
(
3
�R.H:
I believe at one time, not in my memory, no it was at the North
End. They did have one there, but I don't think they held anyone
there...more than twenty-four hours, and then they were sent to
Welland.
N.F:
Was the Police Office located in that building, or what was there
for a Police Station?
R.H:
Yes, I remember.
. .
! don't remember where the Police Station was
at that time, I remember it as always being on Jarvis Street, but
I don't remember where it was... that was a long time ago.
I remember
the Chief of Police, Andy Griffin, ·yes he was the Chief that I remember.
That's a long time ago too, it wasn't long after I came here that
they started paving, after they finished with the Boulevard, they
paved Bertie Street, I remember them doing that, I remember them
paving Queen Street, gradually, you know, they got the streets all
paved ... but of course up to that point there wasn't that much traffic,
the milkman came with his horse and cart, and the baker came,
with a horse and buggy. . .and I remember a Miss McKenna, she had
beautiful stuff, and she used to come around once a week, you know,
with her vegetables.
She had the best strawberries I've ever been
able to get, any like them since, I think the soil up around that area
in Fonthill is very good and they grow good things up there.
The
little church on Queen Street was very active in those days, too,
you know, we had a good congregation, lots of things going on, young
people's groups, Oh, there was something for everyone.
N.F:
R.H:
Where would their outings go?
.
..:
We had picnics at the Old For.t, even then, and that was before it
..
�
.
was fixed over, even then they did quite a bit of work up there,
it didn't look like the picture I showed you.
Then when they did
have the place all done over to what it was like originally, I'm sure
it wasn't like it is now, but that's what they say anyway. Yes that's
where we had all our Picnics at that time, later on when people
began to get cars, then we went to Queenston sometimes, you know,
(
4
�for our Picnics, we had some of our Picnics down there. That was
(
a long way to go in those days. Yes I remember starting out to
go t o Toronto, and even with a car then, I don't think we drove more
than thirty miles an hour. And you can imagine how long it took
to go to Toronto.
N.F:
Would you "travel" often ?
R.H:
We went quite often, yes we had relatives my husband had relatives
in Toronto, you know, so we went up there.
.
. ... .
..
N.F:
And that was not by the Q.E. W.?
R.H:
Oh, no, you had tci�go the Bo ulevard, and then up the old highway,
the "Queen E" was built to the Falls quite a long time ago, my husband
was in hospital in Toronto in 1936, and the "Queen E" was open then
to the Falls, and then they opened one lane to Fort Erie, and it was
years before they finally put the second lane in, you know. But
there wasn't the same amount of traffic you know. I can remember
the first time I drove on the "Queen E", when my husband was in
hospital up there in Toronto, and that was in 1936.
(
N.F:
Quite a trip.
R.H:
Yes it was. We used to go up to the Bruce Peninsula, in the summertime
and I often wonder now how we ever got up those hills, they have
up there, in those old cars, you know. Somehow we made it. They
have cut them down now.
N.F:
And the cars are that much more powerful now too.
R.H:
Yes they are.
Yes it's a different world now. It's funny how we
got to go into different things here, and enjoyed it and we never
had any notion of moving anywh�re else. We always enjoyed it here
. ,.
•
My father worked at the high;·si::hool you know, he worked there
for twenty-seven years I think it was.
N.F:
R.H:
When was the High School built?
That school was built, lets see
..•
about the same time the Peace
Bridge opened, in around those years. I think they used to use
Wintemute part of Wintemute Public School, they used until the
new High School. I don't remember, I didn't have any connection
with the High School, you know, at that time...no I'm not sure when
the High School was built.
N.F:
And there were other Public S chool in different areas.
R.H:
Yes, well there was Douglas School in this area (Queen Street ),
all the kids went there, and then Mather School was built ... lets see
now when would that be
•••
they had their fiftieth anniversary about
5
�ten years ago so that would be about sixty years ago, and now they've
(
torn that down now, that's a shame because that was a good building.
My eldest daughter went to Mather School for a couple of years.
It was a nice school. And then there was Rose Seaton School, of
course, it was just Phipps Street School, in those days, but then
after Miss Se aton became principal they named it after her.
N.F:
Did children walk to school?
R.H:
Oh, everyone walked to school, and my children walked to High
School too, well they rode their bicycles in the good weather, you
never thought of doing anything else.
N.F:
Do you remember worse weather than we have now?
R.H:
I do yes, but I don't think the weather was really worse, I think we
didn't have the equipment to clear it up, you know.
When we were
living on that hill right opposite the Peace Bridge there ... just plowing
down with snow right up to here, to get down to go to work in the
m orning. It was really something, but, you see it took them ages
to go around, with the plows, they had then. nothing like they have
now. I think that's why we remember it, it seemed a lot of snow,
(
and it just had to stay till it melted mostly. They cleared off the
main street and that was all.
N.F:
Did the "Ferry" operate in the winter?
R.H:
Yes, but they had some rough times, I was on it once when it started
down the river, the ice was coming down, the spring was the worst
time, when the ice was coming down, and they had to get a tug,
you know, the tug boat came and rescued us, and pulled us out of
the way of the ice. Quite ofte�,l.had to stay over in Buffalo overnight
because of the ice on the river. In the winter they didn't have trouble
it was clear in the winter t�me. The ferries were very good, they
ran very regularly and I can remember on a Sunday night in the
sum mertime and the traffic, would be from the ferry right along
the Front Street and up Walnut, and right way up Garrison Road,
for several miles, they were lined up and they just had to wait till
the ferry was
•••
and in the summer time they usually had two ferries
running. The ferries held quite a few cars, you know, but Crystal
Beach was such a nice place then and they went up along the lake
6
�(
you know, a lot of people came over from the States.
N.F:
Did you go to Crystal Beach?
R.H:
Yes, we used to go to Erie Beach though, you know .. Erie Beach
up here was open then, there was a little train, which you probably
remember, a little train, no you wouldn;t remember that
the ferry right up to . . . along the front there
•..
ran from
•••
up to Erie Beach,
it was great. I've got a picture of it somewhere.
N.F:
R.H:
What was it called?
I don't remember what it wa5_j.called, I think they called it the "Dinky"
.
or something, something like that, didn't have a"real" name. I don't
think it had an "offical" name. Mr. Barnhardt, Harry Barnhardt's
father, his name was, I can't remember his first name . . . anyway
he was the engineer, and Harry was the fireman, and old Harry McLure
was the conductor, he used to take the tickets, you know, Harry
McLure. He lived up on the corner of Albert Street and Lakeshore,
in that house that's still there, he boarded with the lady who owned
it, that house, he was never married, he worked that job for years
(
and years.
N.F:
How far did the train go; did it enter the Erie Beach grounds?
R.H:
No, j ust right up to the entrance, where they've built that house
now. Did you notice that new house that was just built?
N.F:
Yes.
R.H:
Well right up in there the train went.
N.F:
Did you go to the dances in Erie Beach?
R.H:
Oh, yes, we did all the time, in fact when I was working in Buffalo
;
we used to on Saturday nigl)t ;� f there was a good band on up there
we'd get on this little train vi.hen we got off the ferry, you know,
and ride up, and Lobby's, Old Spain Restraunt, they had a cafetaria
up there, wonderful food. And we used to have our dinner there
and then go to the dance. It was lovely there then.
N.F:
They had large attendances there?
R.H:
Oh, yes they were always crowded.
N.F:
How was Erie Beach layed out?
(
7
�R.H:
I have two pictures, I don't have them here, I had to give them to
my son when I moved in here, I didn't have a place to hang them,
e{ e long, about that long,
two old pictures, th
Lou has them in his
family room if you'd like to stop there sometime and see them.
And there of two views, of Erie Beach.
and it was a lovely place.
It was very well laid out,
I don't know why decided to close that
and keep Crystal Beach running.
N.F:
Where there rides at Erie Beach?
R.H:
Oh yes good rides,the cyclone, it was one, they called the cyclone.
Oh yes they had all kinds of rides.
All kinds of side shows, selling
things, you know, all sorts of stuff to eat, "junk food' as we call
it now.
N.F:
When Crystal Beach opened was it much the same idea as Erie Beach?
R.H:
Yes, Crystal Beach was there before we caMe, so it must have
been there, and Erie Beach was too, it was here when we first came
here.
N.F:
(
Did they both operate at the same time?
R.H:
Yes they both operated, yes, and I don't remember when, perhaps
it was the beginning of the Second World War, wasn't it that they
decided that they couldn't make money at both places.
But things
were not so good then, you know, finances and everything.
N.F:
Would that still be in the depression era?
R.H:
Yes, in the late thirties, I'm not sure if that's when they closed,
but I know it was a long time ago.
Although it may not be that
long, because... let me see. . .no I don't really remember, it seems
a long time since they closed up. You.aon't remember it being open?
N.F:
No. And you enjoyed Crystal Beach also?
R.H:
Yes, we used to go up there occasionally, but not that often, because
I think we liked Erie Beach better, really.
N.F:
Did they have the same type of entertainment that Crystal Beach
has now?
R.H:
Pretty well, yes pretty well, they had other things like roller skating
.
and bowling too, things like that. Th e trying to bring Crystal
ej
Beach back, diet you notice trying?
{
N.F:
Yes.
8
�N.F:
Did you go to shows in Fort Erie?
R.H:
Oh, yes we went to the Bellard Theatre on Dufferin Street. The Ziff's
ran that; Mr. Ziff he took tickets at the door, Mrs.. Ziff sat in the booth
.
and sold the tickets, one of the other boys did the odd jobs around
they were al ways around you know, and then the two girls showed
you to your seats, with a flashlight you know, and then the oldest
girl the one who married a man from England--She has lived in England
for years--she played the piano.
Right in the beginning when I came
here there were no, there was no sound, they played a piano.
�
that was really somethin .
Yes
Stop in at the Chinese Restraunt and
have...that, pie they used to make, you know the cream, what did
they call that pie and coffee. Either that or a milkshake, I remember
having the milkshakes.
N.F:
Remember where the fire companies were; was there a fire company
for what was called Fort Erie South?
R.H:
Yes, they each (area) had a fire company, yes I think they've always
had, because it was the Fort Erie one, and the Bridgeburg, you know.
I was amazed that our place here (Albany Apartments), we have
to call the Fire Company the one up on Dominion Road.
Were out
of the juristiction of the Fort Erie Unit.
N.F:
Yes, your just over the edge.
R.H:
Yes, I guess so. Yes I'm trying to think where the local one was
(Fort Erie, South), where it is now is a new building, on Bertie Street
isn't that funny I can"t remember where that fire, no I don't remember,
where the old fire, maybe it was on the same property, I don't think
so, I think it was somewhere else, and yet I can't remember. You'd
think you'd remember those things--I believe that it was down on
near the Town Hall, there on Queen Street.
there--when we first came here. Yes.
I think it was down
In those days you could call
the operator and ask her where the fire was, and she'd tell you.
And everyone ran to the fire, you know.
It was an occasion when
there was a fire.
N.F:
R.H:
l
Do you remember any "big" fires?
No, nothing really spectatular, no I don't remember anything different.
Houses burned, but I don't remember any big fires. They had lots
9
�o f fires in houses then, because most people had the old stoves, you
(
know, they had lots of trouble with those.
N.F:
Did you heat by coal?
R.H:
Yes.
We used wood in the spring and fall, and coal any other time.
I often sort of worry about people with those stoves now, and using
wood, you know, I
don't think they have proper chimneys on them,
of course I think they have to have them inspected now, because of
insurance. But I often think, you know, that they are not too
safe
••.
especially the wood.
N.F:
Who was the Mayor, or Reeve, when you first came?
R.H:
I think it was Peter Gordon, his daughter-in-law lives in this building
Marion Gordon, her father was Mr. Wright, who worked on the Peace
Bridge, and they had a house on Albert Street, that's where she just
moved from, she gave that house to her son and moved up here...
she's a very nice person.
N.F:
Back in that time, would you "know" the people who were running the
Town, representing the Town?
R.H:
(
After I got m arried, I did because my husband was the Town Solicitor,
before that yes, we knew them pretty well, you know, everyone, it was
small enough then that "you got to know everyone". There was a time
when you could hardly go down the street, but, we knew everybody . . .its
not like that anymore.
N.F:
No it doesn't seem like that at all.
R.H:
No, it was a quiet place, and there was a lot of fishing then along the
river, you know, all those fishing places that they've just taken down,
well there were a lot more of those then, than there were recently.
A lot of fishing went on down there.
N.F:
If you went out to eat, where would you go?
R.H:
There was nothing much in those days other than the Chinese restraunts,
that was about it... then the hotel was built on the Garrison Road, the
Fort Erie Hotel, it was right there on the corner; it burned didn't it?
But that's not so long ago, yes I remember going there often. But there
really wasn't much in the way of restraunts. But people didn't go out
to eat so m uch then. Not nearly as much as they do now; but when we
used to go over to Shea's Buffalo, to see a movie, we wo uld go to
_
(
Lobby's Old Spain, for dinner first. Of course the Queen's
10
�..
'"'i.�
Hotel was, and the Hotel at the corner of Jarvis, the Royal Hotel
(
you could go there, but they were, more places to drink, than to eat
you know, so w e didn't go there much.
N.F:
Fort Erie has always had a number of Hotels.
R.H:
Oh, yes, it's a changed place, that's for sure, but we have always enjoyed
it here, and we've had a good life here.
N.F:
It has been friendly?
R.H:
Yes oh, yes in those days Doctor Douglas was the only Doctor, when
w e came here, the man who gave them the money to build the Hospital,
you know , and his house is down on the Front Street right next to
the building that's a bow ling alley• now, used to be a movie theatre,
he had a lovely little white house, oh, beautiful lines, with dormers,
you know , just a lovely little house. When they took that down I was
so provoked
.•.
that should have been left there.
N.F:
For all that he did for the town.
R.H:
Yes, that's right... I remember my Mother taking me in there for some
reason, I don't remember what was wrong with me, but he had a big rolltop
desk, a huge one, I don't think I've ever seen one so big, it had all little
(
drawers
he had everything on that desk
.••
and he gave me some pills
.•.
..•
it was open and it was full
..•
and I re member wondering if he really knew
what he was doing, you know , he was a smart man apparently and he
did know all right. But this desk was just full of all kinds of medications,
you know, it was really strange.
N.F:
When was the hospital begun?
R.H:
Well my daughter was born in 1930, my oldest daughter, 1930, when she
was about seven months old, she was born in October, that w ould be in
1931 the Hospital was opened. Because I can remember going to the
opening of it, and I had her, you know , she was just a baby.
N.F:
Was that a big ceremony?
R.H:
Yes, oh yes, the whole Town went, and trooped through the Hospital,
you know, and it was wonderful to have that because up to that point
we had to go either to the Falls or to Buffalo.
N.F:
How big was the building when it was first opened?
R.H:
Well it
•••
there's a picture of it in one of those books. . . almost the length
that it is now, it's been added to but not the length, just the front part.
(
N.F:
There was just one floor then?
R.H:
No there were two floors, yes because they had the nurse's residence
upstairs too. See, girls in those days didn't have apartments and things
11
�you know , girls lived in residence there, and the one end of the
(
upstairs was the nurses residence ...my sister-in-law was the night
supervisor there then. And the other end was obstretrics, that's
where my other three children were born, but since then it has been
extended, it was just the one corridor and there was a men's w ard
at one end, and a women's w ard at the other end, and then the private
rooms in between, you kno w , and the offices in the front there . . .
that was it. But o f course at that time it was adequate.
N.F:
Do you remember the effect that the Second World War had on
the community?
R.H:
Yes. I think ... you know they had a lot of girls come in from all
over to work at Fleet, and they had . . . where the Catholic Church
is now they had places for them, temporary buildings they put up,
where they lived and they served meals to the
m
, that was something
different but those were all taken down when the Catholic School,
when they took over that property. See when we first came here
they had a Catholic Church on Gilmore Road, and one up on Highway
Three where it is now, by the mall, that's where that was, and there
(
was a little one at the foot of Gilmore Road. That property where
the Catholic Church is now is where they had all these . . . it was frame
buildings . . . temporary things, you know , that they put up to house
those girls. And a lot of those girls have stayed here, you know ,
there is quite a few o f �them that I knew who married and stayed
here.
N.F:
It ( World War Two ) must have helped the town in some w ays.
R.H:
I think it did, yes. And then they built . . . all the war time houses,
were built at that time too. This old Mr. King that I spoke about
he was an architect. . . he was the one who worked ... was the architect
on those. Yes, he worked there for quite a long time, he was English
really a very nice person. He came to our house every Thursday
night for years until he died. We played cards on Thursday.
N.F:
A lot of people played cards then.
R.H:
Yes that was one of the . . . we haven't the time to play cards now
we never sit down long enough.
(
12
�N.F:
What kind of cards would they be?
R.H:
Bridge, we played bridge. Those houses they were supposed to be
demolished too after the war, but they never were, they are still all
there.
N.F:
Yes they are.
R.H:
Because that was all vacant property; where those houses are, that
did make quite an impact.
N.F:
Fort Erie has filled in quite a bit.
R.H:
Yes oh yes.
Well those were more for people working at Fleet. I
don't remember how many employees they had but it was a goodly
number in those days.
N.F:
And the Peace Bridge helped the town too?
R.H:
Well I think to a certain extent, you know,
but the population has
never increased all that much, you know, I think it was, it was only
three or four thousand I think when we came here, gradually it came
up to about seven thousand, anct now when they include all the surrounding
areas... twenty-four thousand now I guess. Now it goes all the way
out to Ridgeway and Stevensville.
(
N.F:
Did you ever do any shopping in Ridgeway, or the outside areas?
R.H:
Yes, yes we used to go up to Ridgeway occasionally, you know, not
that much, you know, they always had that nice China Shop, the China
Shop that's still there, but we had a nice one here until they took
that property down, you know, for the highway. But Agnew's China
Store was a lovely place way back. I don't know what else I can tell
you about the Town back then.
N.F:
Did the Town have before a "bus" service?
R.H:
There was nothing way back. . . there was-·a little help with the busses ...
when the Peace Bridge opened, and they started running the busses
to Buffalo, then you could take the bus to the North End, or back,
you know, because those busses ran more regularly then than they
do now. Because people drive now, and yes we used to take the bus
to the North End, or back, we could do that.
But no they didn't have
a local bus service at all.
N.F:
Did you ever go to the Fort Erie Race Track?
R.H:
I've been there a few times, usually on Fort Erie Day, we always got
an invitation to go on that day, when my Husband was alive.
N.F:
It's· grown a lot too.
13
�R.H:
Oh it's lovely now yes, one of the nicest Race Tracks I've been ta
I think the Canadian Race Tracks are really, they keep them so
(
nice
I've been to
••.
•.•
one year .•• before my Husband died we were
in Florida, and we went to Florida Downs, and that was really just
a dumpy looking place, you know com pared to our tracks, oh yes
that was just about
•.•
sixteen, seventeen years ago, you know , that
we were down there. And I thought how much nicer our track was.
N.F:
R.H:
Did the Track itself bring in a lot of people to Fort Erie?
Oh, yes, it used to more than now I think, and in those days a lot
of people came and stayed, it was good for . . . a lot of people rented
rooms and things just for the races, they'd come in for a week or
something like that. But now days they just drive in .and drive out.
N.F:
They certainly do, yes. Durring the Centennial Year 19 57, what
did the Town do to celebrate?
R.H:
Well, they had a . . . a sort of a
.•.
pageant day up at the Old Fort when
they had . . . well it was a pageant like of the former times, you know,
and then they had a parade, I remember watching the parade, they
went right past our house, you know, on Queen Street, and things
like that. Yes it was quite an event, but we had another affair here
(
when this townhad, you mean Centennial Year, for the whole country,
(No, for the Town), yes that's what I'm talking about too
•••
the two
things were sort of the same, they did the same sort of things, you
know for both.
N.F:
Do you remember when Bridgeburg and Fort Erie, everything, was
amalgamated into one; was there a special ceremonies at that time?
R.H:
Yes, they had a thing down at the North End
•••
when they were sworn
in, the officials, you kno w , see my husband was the Solicitor for
the South End of Fort Erie. Yes there was a ceremony at the North
End, I don't remember it in detail, but I know there was something.
N.F:
Did it really change Fort Erie, a great deal to have everything
brought into one.
R.H:
I think it has been better, yes, although the Town is so spread out
it has never sort of got together, has it.
N.F:
R.H:
(
No i t hasn't.
It really hasn't. Because it's about four-and-a-half-miles from one
end to the other and that's quite a bit really for a small Town. I
14
�think it probably helped in some w ays you know, sort of consolidated
all the work, that had to be done, like there was a duplication, you
(
know, you had to have two clerks, and two of everything. Yes I
can remember when we first bought that house on Queen Street
the taxes were eighty dollars a year, eighty dollars, yes, I can just
barely imagine what they are now.·
N.F:
Was there a water bill then?
R.H: Oh, yes, but a very small one, very small, paid it every three months
seems to me it was just four dollars, or so for three months. We
have always been very fortunate here, we have never had the w ater
bills like they have in other places.
N.F:
This is true.
R.H: And it's the same with our electricity, the people who are on Hydro,
pay mush more than we do on Niagara Power.
N.F:
There was hydro already in homes when you came to Fort Erie?
R.H:
Yes.
N.F:
And street lights?
R.H:
Yes, just on the main street, not many no not many street lights
it was dark as all get out. I remember w alking when we lived in
(
that �ouse up on the hill, before the Peace Bridge was built. . . w alking
down there, going down to our Church, it wasn't that far, but there
was woods, trees, all the way.
Right down to the Power Company
you know, across from the Power Company,it was all woods.
N.F:
R.H:
Was the 'mill race' in place when you first came here?
I don't think so, I can't remember. I think it probably was here
.
then. There were houses all along the riverside there, you know,
.
.
where the Peace Bridge is, where the entrance is. There w ere
quite a few houses moved from there, up onto Walnut Street, in
fact most of those houses that were on the south side of Walnut
Street were from the river front there, but they were all taken
down for the Peace Bridge parking, you know, they didn't have
that when the Peace Bridge was first opened. No there have been
a lot of changes in the last ten years even. I have a daughter who
lives out west, she notices, well she's been out there about fourteen
(
15
�years, and she notices so many different things when she comes
home, you kno w . But it was a very small town, but I think before
(
we came here there were a lot of things that went on here, that
had sort of slowed up like smuggling the Chinese into the States;
in boats and things like that, that happened a bit before we came
here ... but we heard lots of stories.
N.F:
I imagine you did.
R.H:
Another thing that brought a lot of people here was when they
had prohibition, in the States, and we had 'bootleggers' all over
the place here.
N.F:
Would they be in private homes?
R.H:
Yes, oh absolutely yes and I knew one lady who had a place up on
the Garrison there, and do you remember ... what was his name . . .
his name was Claire Burger, and he had a n orchestra and long before
that he was just a young chap, in High School when this 'bootlegging'
was going on, and this lady hired him every night to play the piano
at her house all evening while these people were coming, and she
served them meals and drinks, of course.
(
N.F:
Meals and drinks?
R.H:
Meals and drinks, yes, she's still alive, I know her . . . and he played
the piano for two dollars, he got two dollars, that was pretty good
then, you know, yes.
And he often used to laugh, he's dead now
Claire, he used to laugh so hard, he said he could tell you lots of
things that went on in that place, but that was something that happened.
There was another one down at the foot of Murray Street ;there
a lady who had a place where she served drinks there, the cars were
lined up there all the time, it was really something.
N.F:
Canadians and Americans would go in?
R.H:
Well mostly Americans, because they provided it here you know ,
people came over in droves then.
N.F:
Did you ever notice them moving, they called it "rum running".
R.H:
Oh, yes there was quite a bit of that went on too, yes. They did
that in the middle of the night ... because they were afraid of the ...
they had the rum running boats that chased them , you know, if they
found them ... but ... yes there was a lot of that.
(
N.F:
How long did that last?
16
�It wasn't very long, well it might have been
(
•..
let's see now
•..
I really
don't know how long it did last, but I can't remember how long they
had prohibition over there it wasn't that long, because I think just
the next election they voted it out. Couldn't have been very long
I don't think.
N.F:
Was it a pretty common topic of discussion on the street.
R.H:
Yes, oh yes.
N.F:
Do you ever remember anyone being hurt or getting in serious trouble
over this?
R.H:
No, not really, I think the police sort of closed their eyes to that
••.
most of the time.
N.F:
Would there have been anyone local that made money from it or
was really that well involved?
R.H:
Well this lady that I know has oodles of money and I'm sure that's
where she made it because she never worked any other place that
I know of, and she must have made a lot of money off it.
N.F:
(
It must have been very convenient to be a border town at that time.
R.H:
Of course you were taking a chance, you know , because your not
supposed to do it, it went on . . . and oh when we were first married
in nineteen twenty-nine it was on then. . . because we lived in the
Riverview Apartments, when we were first married, and there
were several people in there who did that too.
N.F:
Were they organized?
R.H:
Oh no it was just a private thing, you know, if you had one person
·
..
come over and then they would tell their friends the next night
you would have six and then it would grow, you know.
N.F:
It must have been very interesting.
R.H:
Yes, there was a man who was quite high up in the Government
in New York State, he had an apartment there and he just used it
for that; he'd come over and bring his friends, you know, and they'd
go and get their liquor and so on. He wasn't exactly bootlegging,
but that's why he had that apartment, you know
•••
I remember that
Kelly was his name. He had a ... I forget what he was ... I don't remember
what position, he was in the New York State Government anyway...
(
that went on all over town.
17
�N.F:
When you say all over town; a lot of people were involved?
R.H:
Oh, yes a lot of people were doing
•••
well you can imagine one person
with a house, you couldn't have too m any, you know, so there were
a lot of people doing it.
N.F:
It must have helped the economy in some w ays?
R.H:
Oh, I supposed it did. Talking about a fire when we lived in the
Riverview Apartments there was a fire in there, bah, hah. . .but it
didn't do too much damage, you know, just one apartment but you
know how the smoke got all over ... it travels. Well I can't really
remember any other outstanding thing, you know, that happened
here, but I think the smuggling of people over was very prevelant
then, you know, they did a lot of that. And there are thousands
of people in the States now who are not supposed to be there
•••
they
never registered, and they give them a chance to do that every
once in a while, you know, but it just amazes me w hen I hear them
tell that . . .andf I know there were people went over the Peace Bridge
who were working on the Peace Bridge but they just dissappeared
into the night, you know, an d didn't go through the normal channels
to get over. But living where we did we wat ched the Peace Bridge
from .. right well they started it at each end, you know, and we always . . .
well i t w a s a sort o f a joke . . . w e hoped that they'd meet--when they
got to the centre of the river, you know.
N.F:
Did it take a long time?
R.H:
About two years, I think it was.
N.F:
Did a lot of people come in from out of the area to work on the
project?
R.H:
Yes, yes there were a lot of people... a lot of men boarded around...
there weren't places to live so much just one hotel, you know, but
they'd boarded around at different places you know. Quite a lot
of men, in those days there wasn't the machinery there is now, you
know they hired more men ... yes that did something for the area
too I suppose. Yes I remember the day it opened when Baldwin
was it ...Prime Minister he was here from Britian you know, and
well the present Queen's Father, he was Prince George (it tells in
(
one of those books), it was ... yes I remember all of them; somebody
18
�(
wrote a peom entitle d "Bridge of Peace" for lthe back of the Program
Frank Baird was the President of the Bridge Com pany, you remember
he was the man from Buffalo. Here's the people who were present
the Right Honourable Prime Minister of Canada, that was Mackenzie
King at that time; and the Premier of Ontario; the Secretary of
State for the United States and the Right Honourable Prime Minister
of Britain, he was Stanley Baldwin; His Royal Highness The Prince
of Wales will be present and speak; and the Vice-President of the
United States--doesn't give his naqi.e, isn't that funny you'd think
they would--must be here somewhere . . . they had thousands of people
there for the opening. . . it was quite an event.
N.F:
I hear the local school chGildren took part in that also.
R.H:
Yes. Oh, and Mayor Schwab, Charles M.Schwab, the head of the
Bethlehem Steel Company in Buffalo, he wasn't the Mayor than
but he was appointed Mayor after that ...you know those things that
we used to have on the road in Buffalo, those round things. . . dividing,
they were terrible things ... they called them 'Schwab' s Boils', he
(
was the one who started that, you know, so I think of that. Yes
and Alfred Smith was the Govenor o f the State of New York, he
was another one from the States; and the Vice-President of the
United States and Mrs. Dawes ... must have been Henry Dawes; the
Secretary of State and Mrs. Kellogg; there were quite a lot of really
important people.
Yes Schwab was the Mayor then, the Mayor of
Buffalo and Mrs. Schwab, yes I'll always remember Schwab's Boils.
Yes it was an interesting time.
N.F:
The Peace Bridge opened just before the 'Depression' really hit;
did the depression really affect the town that much.
R.H:
Yes, nineteen t wenty-seven it was opened it was t wenty-five t o
t wenty-seven they started w : orking, clearing the land and s o on just
after we came here, and it opened in t wenty-seven . . . Sunday afternoon
August the Seventh, Nineteen Twenty-Seven. And they had the
ceremony on this side and then they
it was like a procession ... the
•••
cars with all these dignitaries went ahead and then, the people followed
walking ... and they had another ceremony on the other side.
N.F:
It was very, very nice.
R.H:
Well apparently there are more cars pass over here coming from
the United States t han �ny other place in Canada.
19
�N.F:
(
And a lot of truck freight too.
R.H:
Yes, oh there's a lot of trucks. I thought perhaps Windsor and Detriot
would have a larger volume but apparently not, I was suprised to
read that in the paper that this was
had the most traffic here,
•••
but I don't think we have the traffic that we used to have on the
Peace Bridge do we
no.
•••
N.F:
And it's more updated to hold the traffic.
R.H:
Yes, that's true.
N.F:
When was the Fort re-done, and the Parks put in, was that all done
at one time?
R.H:
No it was always . . . from when we came it was always a nice park
•..
had all that property
they
but no they took over the part, you know
•••
that they have up on the Dominion farther, well that•.•they took
that over not too long ago, but the other part it was all park land,
you know, we used to go there for picnics all the time. But there
weren't the buildings that w ere there now. But that monument
there
..•
it has been there for years. Yes they had a•••yes they had
a big affair when that was opened too, after they redid that, you
know . . . bands and all sorts of things. I remember Marg Dougal, she
(
was in the Pageant they had there and she used to tell about that.
I miss her, you know, she was such a lively person, and she had
lived here all her life, she was born here and she lived in the same
house, she never lived anyplace else. She was eighty:--seven when
she died, she's been dead two years now . . . she was one of the 'old'
_
residents here. And her Father I remember him so well, he was
a tall tall man very thin about that wide, you know, very tall and
he wore one of those
bowler hats, you know the black hard hats,
•••
he was a great old gentleman. I don't know that there is anything
more that I can tell you.
N.F:
Well you've told me quite a bit. And very nicely.
R.H:
And there was nothing up this w ay in those days. . . this is all new.
N.F:
It used to be scrub, with lots of anthills, huge anthills.
R.H:
Yes, that's right, yes this was all filled in here, because this was
ah, was like swamp land back here you know. But it's made a nice
place for us, it's very com fortable here, very nice.
{
20
�N.F:
Has Central Avenue as it is now, has that always been a central
part of the town?
R.H:
Pretty well
..•
although it was always
..•
before they put that bridge
up you know, it was always divided there at
••.
you couldn't get across
you had to go down to the boulevard to get up to Jarvis. Until
'}
they built that bridge, and that's not too long ago••• yes there was
always
•..
but years ago we always crossed the tracks and went right
over any way when you were w alking, you know, and the kids always
went across there to go to school, to Phipps Street School, you know.
N.F:
Was there rationing here?
R.H:
N.F:
Durring the war, durring the Second World War.
'
What did that ·cover?
R.H:
Let's see now, Sugar I remember and meat, you know I remember
the rationing in theold country durring the First World War, yes
I remember going with a book of stamps, when I'd shop for m y Mother,
you know, durring the First World War.
N.F:
Is that what they used here too?
R.H:
Yes, we had a book with stamps, so many for a week or whatever,
you know, and they'd t ake them
•..
when you got rid of your stamps
you couldn't get any more for whenever it was
! think there were
•••
quite a few things rationed. W e weren't badly off, in fact some
of the rationing amounts were more than you w ould normally use
•••
it wasn't really bad.
N.F:
So it w asn't so strict then?
R.H:
No, it wasn't really bad at all. But in the old country durring the
First World War, that was another story, it was entirely different.
A terrible time then
•••
but here I don't know why they even had that,
it was just to probably
have it m ore equally divided, you know
•••
the food. At first there was a shortage of men to w ork to run the
farms and places where they grew it, that's probably what startedo
it.
N.F:
Did they have 'War Drives'I and 'War Bonds'?
R.H:
War Bonds yes, and they had
sold
•••
•••
durring the Second World War they
what was it they called them
••.
War Savings Certificates to
the kids at school, don't you remember that? No I guess you weren't
21
�that old, no you w ouldn't be. You're the same age as Kathy? Yes
that's what I thought. No that was be fore then, my oldest daughter
she, I remember her buying them, but she's up in her fifties now.
N.F:
That w ould be important to get the children involved.
R.H:
Yes,.
N.F:
And that w ould involve the whole family too.
R.H:
We did a lot of work for the Red Cross. . . we had the main place
where we did our sewing and knitting and everything on Jarvis Street
upstairs over, you know where Dr. Chapman office was at one time
there was a big room up there, th�t's w here we had the Red Cross
Rooms and then we had that back room in the place that's now the
Legion on Queen Street, yes we took care of the South End, I looked
after all the knitting and that. .. yes , we did a lot of work then, you
know. It's the limit what people can do when they set their minds
to it; when there's a specific thing like a war happening or something.
We turned out a lot of stuff.
N.F:
I bet you did, yes. Do you feel that the Town has changed greatly
now?
{
R.H:
Oh, yes, I think so.
N.F:
Does it still seem as friendly as it was?
R.H:
No, the older people are friendly, you know, and I have good friends
here, but
•••
the younger people now, there's a lot of.
••
well I guess
it's my idea the younger people are not the same, you know they
do a lot of things that we know are not right.
N.F:
When you first came from Buffalo and saw Fort Erie, actually came
from a thriving city
•••
R.H:
Oh, I didn"t live in Buffalo, no.
N.F:
Well what would you think now if you were in a major city and came
into this area, would it seem like it was built up or would it just
seem small.
R.H:
No it would still seem small, in fact it's not as nice as it was, but
dlilTing the war, we had far more stores here
dU1Ting the w ar,
•••
didn't we and since then too, look at the places that have closed
down, down on the front street, it looks dreadful there now, I'm
22
�just sort of ashamed to have people drive through there it looks
so bad . . . so m any empty places
.••
it's not in good shape at all really.
But there weren't m any when I first came here, but then they did
build up, and there were quite a few nice
.•.
Jarvis Street had quite
a few nice stores and that's b�ginning to go down too, it's too bad.
You see a lot of young people w alking around; not working and you
know , that makes it w orse.
N.F:
When Fort Erie was a small place in the thirties or so I imagine
it w ould have been easier at that time.
R.H:
Yes, of course durring the war it �as too. You know I think
.••
in
a way it's going down in general.
N.F:
Well thank you very much for doing the interview for us.
R.H:
You're very welcome.
N.F:
I've enjoyed it very much.
R.H:
If there's anything else I can help you with, or anything you think
of to ask m e , you know, I may not have just thought of everything;
it's hard to remember just what went on. You can give me a call
i f you need to.
<
N.F:
I will, and thank you very much.
R.H:
You're very welcome.
,·
... . .
-·
.,
'
23
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Neil Findall
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Reta Honey
Location
The location of the interview.
Mrs. Honey's home at Senior Citizen's center, Albany Street, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Honey, Reta
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Reta Honey's interview. She discusses such topics as:
Ferries
Stores and restaurants
North end
Bridgeburg
Erie Beach
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
North end
World War II
Douglas Memorial Hospital
Medicine
Recreation
Peace Bridge
Racetrack
Bootlegging
Old Fort
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985
1980s
1985
Bridgeburg
Crystal Beach amusement park
Douglas Memorial hospital
Erie Beach
ferries
Fort Erie
north end
old fort
Oral history
peace bridge
race track
recreation
restaurants and bars
transcripts
world war II
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/3e21683f9bf20cfd4e4c043058f2102d.pdf
3e3fa94daf01b1bd4c49ff6e6107cf5a
PDF Text
Text
This is Shelley Richer interviewing Mr. Harvey Holzworth in his
home on Point Abino Road, September 25th, 1985.
S.R:
Hello Mr. Holzworth, and how are you today?
H.H:
Alright Shelley, it's a beautiful day today.
S.R:
What is your date of birth?
H.H:
October 3 lst, Halloween.
S.R:
What year?
H.H:
1924.
S.R:
Where were you born?
H.H:
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I've always lived in Buffalo.
S.R:
When did you come to Fort Erie?
H.H:
I came to Crystal Beach in 1924. My father... as I said, I was just
born in Pittsburgh, but the family moved immediately to Buffalo,
and dad right away decided to buy a summer home. That was, I
think it was cottage #71 on the\waterfront on top of the hill at
Crystal Beach. I can remember back then, when I was still a baby
in a wicker baby buggy, and I know which room in the house it was,
(
in the front, and I know which way I was facing in the buggy, and
I could listen to the bands coming off the Crystal Beach boat, and
the people, and I loved the noises of the people down on the beach.
Of course, this is before there was any fence down at the beach.
There used to be a... I can remember a cement walk, you know,
a sidewalk like, going down in front of the homes, down on the beach.
In fact, it's still ther�. If the stone washes the sand away ... it's
still there, parts .of it, you know.
S.R:
And that's at Crystal Beach?
H.H:
That's right in Crystal Beach, going along the lakefront there.
At that time the Canadiana and the Americana were the two boats
that came in, and
I
remember the old ballroom when the Dance
Hall... the band stand was in the middle of the Dance Hall. I remember
the Royal Ballroom, which is,
I
.
used to. .
I
I
believe, the old Royal Hotel, and
remember the Royal Ballroom, that was at the Bay
Beach end of Crystal Beach, right on the beach. That building is
still there. Mr. Rebstock owns it and he uses it for apartments,
you know, summer apartments. That used to be the old Royal Ballroom.
(1)
�I
(
can remember Honey Teal delivering ice to us.
S.R:
This is still in the first house?
H.H:
This is still in the first house.
I
can remember a ride that used
to be located in the shallow water, right near the dock, and it would
twirl around and the swimmers would grab a hold of it and swing
out in the air and let go and splash in the water. I can remember
that ride.
S.R:
That was at Crystal Beach right?
H.H:
That was all at Crystal Beach. Then in 1928 my father was sold
on building... buying some property at Point Abina and building
our present summer home that I live in now, in 1928, at Point Abino.
Now, this house is just two doors north of the Buffalo Yacht Club,
Point Abino Station.
S.R:
Did your father build this house himself or were there...?
H.H:
Oh no, he had . . . ·I think Mr. Poor built it, I believe it was Mr. Poor.
I know that Logden Page built the stone wall in front of the house,
and I know that Logden Page built the big stone fireplace here,
and it's all a fieldstone fireplace that we have in here. Logden
(
Page built that, and he built the house... he built the fireplace first. . .
S.R:
And then built the house around it?
H.H:
And then he built the house around it. Then, the fireplace is designed
so in case of bad times or something, why-you could ... if somebody
was living here, they could heat. If you keep a steady fire in there
and heat all the stones up, and you could heat the house with radiant
heat with just the heat of the stones.
S.R:
So it never needed a furnace then?
H.H:
No, but I have a furnace in it, but
I
mean, if things really were
bad.
S.R:
What was the area like when you moved here, your neighbours?
Do you remember who your neighbours were?
H.H:
Yeah, Mrs. Watson was just north of us, and she was also our neighbour
in Buffalo, .and she was the one that talked my father into buying
this property here and building next door to her here at Point Abino.
That was Mrs. Watson. Just to the south of us was the M atham
(
House, M atham owned that house. That house was here. Then
right behind that, which is a house that we've added to and everything
(2)
�else... my sister lives in there now and Adams used to live in that
(
house way back, and that house is one of the oldest houses on the
Point, and that house was also used where the crew for the Marion L
used to stay. Ike Adams was the skipper of the M arion L, and this
was before there was any sand roads, any roads coming out on the
Point. They used to go back and forth to Crystal Beach by boat.
One of those boats was the Marion L. The life preservers of the
Marion L are still in the attic of that house. They're all hanging
on a mast from an old sailboat, perfectly preserved, so we'll leave
them there. Now, before the Marion L there was the M ertle, and
M itch . . . let's see. . .
I
don't know if it was Bragg or M itchener... M itchener
used to skipper that boat I think, the M ertle, and that was built
right up at, well, M itchener, Jimmy Braggs location. It was built,
I
think, by Mitchener and old Jack Sinclair. Jack Sinclair was the
last of the clipper-ship sailors. There's a whole history on him.
That's something else to talk about. I have a lot of information
on Jack Sinclair.
(
S.R:
Jack Sinclair was a resident here?
H.H:
Oh yeah, he was a resident. When he retired from his sailing days
he used to work around as a gardener, and in the wintertime he
would carve ships that he used to sail on, you know, carve them
and rig them. He'd carve them with the sea around them and then
he'd give them to whoever he worked for. Now, he's given me some
stuff but I never got one of his ships. And then, actually, we bought
his property when he died and my father ended up giving it to Tony,
who was our gardener at the time, he gave him the property.
S.R:
Do you know what Tony's last name was?
H.H:
I don't know, it's hard to... Mitch... it's hard to pronounce. Just
Tony, big Tony. But, that's the way Jack Sinclair lived, the same
house. I have some other things that he. . . the other thing he used
to do was carve different things out of twigs, you know, furniture
and things like that out of the twigs and branches in the woods,
and the vines and stuff like that. I have some of that stuff. Now,
getting back to our location here, the back part of our property
(
is where the Indian burial ground is. The archaeologist from the
University of Toronto... and I have a whole write-up. They've been
(3)
�back here for the last three years and I let them dig on my property.
(
They... right at the end on my property they ran into some pottery,
three pieces of pottery which has the designs, the rim, and two
different designs, and fairly large but it's broken, the big vase...
and perfectly clear the designs, and they estimate that it's around
2,000
years old. They found some cutting knives. They estimated
their age around
800 B.C.,
and they've also found some spearheads
and arrowheads and other things, but all this will be written up
�nd there �ill be booklets on this stuff too. Right now a lot of
these are going through carbon tests to verify their age and everything
at the University of Toronto, I believe.
S.R:
This used to be an Indian settlement then?
H.H:
Oh yeah, this was originally settled in... there used to be all black
walnut trees here. The Point was loaded with black walnut trees,
and there was a .peaceful tribe of Indians that settled here. They
were known as the Fishing Tribe, but there was an escartment here
of shale, or what they use for tools, arrowheads, spearheads. They
always stayed peaceful because they were traders. They made
(
these arrowheads and spearheads and cutting tools and that stuff,
and traded it all throughout the Continent. Some has been found
down in southwestern parts of the United States. Eventually all
this tribe was wiped out by the Iriquois. There's a lot more history
I can go into on that.
S.R:
Like what? From around here?
H.H:
Well, there is also an Indian garden here. That's up at the Point.
That would be on Brown Road, I think, down at the end of Brown
Road where Carroll used to live. It's close, it's in that area. It
would be south of ... I know where it is. It's back in the woods.
That has been written up in some article in the Museum of Science
in Buffalo. There's an article on that. It's an Indian garden, is what
it is, the burial ground.
S.R:
H.H:
Just by the weeds, the growth ... by the growth.
S.R:
(
How could they tell that it was an Indian garden?
That's how they can tell this was a burial ground too?
H.H:
Well, there are certain ways that. . . if I'm walking through the woods
and I run across certain weeds, you only find them in Indian burial
(4)
�grounds or Indian gardens, or something like that. The terrain is
just your low evergreens, certain type of evergreens, and then they
(
have these weeds, I forget what you call them. They're very thin
and you can pull them apart and put them back together again.
There again I could elaborate on all that. I'm just having a fast
interview and all these names and everything, I haven't got at the
tip of my tongue. Then they had the little yellow flowers. It's
just the vegetation and stuff. Then of course there's certain other
histories that have been referred to, like, Pierre Abino, who was
a priest, used to... that's where Point Abina got it's name, from
a priest, Pierre Abina. There's other people that have more history
on him than what I have.
S.R:
What history do you have ·On him? What would Pierre Abino have
to do with around here?
H.H:
Well, he came down to work with the Indians here.
S.R:
Would you know the approximate year, or anything like that?
H.H:
Right off hand at this interview I don't have any of those years.
I have all the information available, but you'd have to fill it in.
(
S.R:
Do you know who one of the first white settlers were to build one
of their cottages, well, summer homes, they're not exactly cottages,
along here were? One of the oldest homes here.
H.H:
Well, you have the Holloway and Page, which are both Canadian,
and Holloway had the Point Abina Sand Company. Then you had
the Pages, there's several brothers. The Pages, one of them was
John, Logden, and... I forget all of them, you know. The Holloways
owned the southern half of the tip of Point Abino, and the Pages
owned the northern half of Point Abino, so to speak. Holloway
had a sand company, I guess they called it the Point Abino Sand
Company. They had a sand dock that went out just... which is the
present pier of the Buffalo Yacht Club. Holloway had that sand
dock there. They also had another sand dock over on the west shore
of Point Abino, right where the... the cribs are still there in the
water. You'll see where it is. I know where they are. The... it's
right where the shale rock on the Point meets the sand beach.
Now, from there, there used to be a log road going across the Point
over to the eastern shore of the Point, and there's a log road going
(5 )
�through the sandhills there, and then that road continues through
what we used to call Patterson's Cut. Now, of course you've got...
right in that area you have Bragg, Jimmy Bragg, and that's,
I
don't
know, they used to have an ice house and fishing boats, and... they
still have a boat livery there. They've been... one of the oldest
on the Point, but it goes before t� at. Bragg was Mitchener... was
it Mitchener? That's ... that location is where the Mertie was built,
one of the first boats, and it went back and forth. Now also there,
there's two big white houses, they were owned by the Pattersons.
Both those homes now owned by Bob Rich Senior and Bob Rich Junior.
They used to be owned by the Pattersons. A little further up on
the Point is the ... on the corner, the first road going back in, it's
a ground road, is the old Pan-American House, and I believe it was
the Wisconsin House in the Pan-Am Exposition in
1901,
in Buffalo,
and that was brought over here over the ice.
S.R:
The house was?
H.H:
Yes. There's even a postcard of that house. I forget... I don't know
who lived in it at that time.
(
I
can remember some of the older
names out on the Point. I can remember Carrolls used to live up
there, way back. Of course the Fairburns, you've got the Sharps.
They've been there a long time. Leapoles, he used to be up there.
There's a whole list of the names that I could probably give you.
S.R:
You said that the Holloways and the Pages basically owned all the
property on the Point at one time.
H.H:
Right.
S.R:
Would you know approximately when they settled, or the reasons
for having it all divided up into... for them starting to sell off their
property to have a settlement...?
H.H:
You'd have to go talk to Earl Page about all that. You'd get a better
history than what I can give you. He lives right down the road here
on Point Abino Road here, not too far away.
S.R:
All along the lakefront here, there is the Bertie Boat Club, I think
it's the Buffalo Canoe Club, and the Buffalo... no, the something
Canoe Club and the Buffalo Yacht Club.
(
H.H:
On the Point itself you've got the... the first boat that was out
on the Point is Braggs. That's the oldest. It's a boat livery. He
(6) .
�still has a
(
..•
he still keeps one fishing boat there and he still has
his commercial fishing license because he keeps the boat there,
but it's basically a boat livery. Now, that used to be an ice house
and everything. Now, just north of that, coming in from the lighthouse,
is the Bertie Boat Club, then right next to it is the Buffalo Yacht
Club station. Now, I have pictlll'es of some of the old Yacht Club
buildings back in 1902. Now, I believe that was a King's Grant
at the time, that property, to the Buffalo Yacht Club. They got
some kind of a King's Grant and I think they accquired some of
it through Holloway at the time. And there again, I'd have to go
back to the Yacht Club history on that which I have a write-up
on. They used to have a sand dock that went -out into the lake
along there, and
•.•
oh, back in the '50s
no, it was the early '60s
..•
•••
wait a minute... '50..
'59, '60, '61. But, then
I
.
dredged a new
channel in for the big channel, the present channel in for the Yacht
Club. At that time Bob Tripp came up to me and asked if himself
and maybe folll' or five, half a dozen other fellows could tie up
on the north side of the berm that we built to drive the cars out
(
on. I said, "Sure, go ahead". And that was the beginning of the
Bertie Boat Club. Of course, they accquired the land there and
everything else, and it's turned into quite a boat club.
Why did people ask you? What did you have to do with all this
S.R:
that people would ask you if they could tie up their boats?
H.H:
Well, I belonged to the Yacht Club, and
_
I
had helped.. I was one
.
of the active promoters of getting this Point Abino station reactivat�d.
I promoted it and dredged the new channel, the big one they're
using now.
S.R:
How did you do that and who helped?
H.H:
How did I dredge it?
S.R:
Yes.
H.H:
That's a long story, and I have a whole write-up on that. It's available
if you want it. Basically we had a strong north east
•••
I mean,
after promoting and trying to get the money. We had a Vice Commodore
that was interested in getting this channel dug, and then a certain
(
group got together and they said, "Well, we'll put the money in",
because we had a strong three day north east wind blowing. At
(7)
�(
that time the lake level was very low, very low.
S.R:
Because of the north east wind or just at that time?
H.H:
No, just, just
.•.
there was a cycle, you know, certain years it's
higher and certain years it's lower. You always get your cycles.
I don't care what anybody says, you always have your cycles, and
they'll vary by 10 years apart, you know. But, this strong north
east wind that was blowing, and it held off for three days, we had
dry land way out to the end of where the weir is now. That was
all dry land, all dry. Now, there used to be other channels dredged
in there for other docks and stuff, and old man, old Al Storm used
to dredge all those channels in. His son Mike knew them and Mike
redredged them. So he knew all the channel beds and where all
the hard and soft spots were. So, with the water so low I had Mike
on standby with his drag line, and
I
said, "I've got the go ahead",
and I says, "Mike, come on up and start digging". So, he just walked
up his drag line all the way up there to the beginning of the channel.
He had the floor boards of his, the cabin of the drag line with about
(
an inch of water over them. And he says, "This is how far I can
take it out", and then he didn't even use his mast to walk it out
there. He says, "I can throw the bucket out another 30 feet, and
I
says, "Start digging". Well, what he did is, he had to dig real
fast before the wind let up, and built an island behind him, shorewise,
and he got this island, and he dredged right into the dock that
whole day. He just kept building this island behind him and kept
digging. He just kept throwing the dirt back and building an island.
Then it was draining off, he had to build it high enough to drain
off. Then he took his mast and he just moved his crane up on top
of this island so that when the wind let up and the water came
back down the lake, you know, it rose a little bit, that he'd be
out of the water. Now, he was sitting on an island, so the only
way he was going to get that drag line ashore was to keep digging,
and keep throwing the dirt back. Now, the end results were that,
before we were through, I had two drag lines going and three euclids
from Campbells Quarry moving dirt. In front of the homes here...
(
of course when we first built here, for many years this was all
a sand road going up here, and...
(8)
�(
S.R:
You said before, that there wasn't a road.
H.H:
Well, there was no road. I don't know when they first
•••
it was
just a sand road going up when we moved here.
S.R:
Oh, so you could always come here without taking the ferry across
and take the Marion L.
H.H:
Oh, no, no, that's all before my time.
my time.
No, we could drive up then.
Oh yeah, that's all before
Well, it was just a sand
road along the shore.
S.R:
Was it a private road?
H.H:
It was private then. In fact, we used to have old Gordie Haun,
and he used to be an old
.••
h� was a gate keeper, and there's an
old stone column down as you come, as you hit the lake, you know,
right where you hit the lake there, there's a stone column there,
and that's where they used to, we used to have a guard there.
Then there's another gate up there further on up the Point, up
by the Pan-Am House.
Then of course they had another road here,
that's a private road. It was all private at one time.
(
S.R:
Why can it be private?
H.H:
Well, a lot of these homes along here had Reparian Rights at the
time... water rights. The original road between Holloway and
Page, Page finally gave in the right of way, the road right of way
across his part of the property. He gave Holloway the right of
way and that's probably how they got the... decided where they
were going to put the road.
S.R:
You said you knew a lot about the history of the Yacht Club.
Would
you know when it started, who started it, any of the backing, or
.••
what's the history of the Club?
H.H:
To get into that I'll have to
•••
we can get into that later in the
interview on the history of the Yacht Club because I have to go
pull out some more information here.
When you start asking me
names and you're going way back, I don't remember all these names.
S.R:
Well, what do you remember about it?
Do you remember the approximate
year that it opened?
H.H:
What, the Point Abino station?
S.R:
So, that question there on the Yacht Club was a little bit too big
to answer on this type ef interview.
(9)
�(
H.H:
What are you asking?
S.R:
Oh, I asked i f you could explain the history
•••
Before I shut the
tape o f f I asked if you could explain the history o f the Yacht Club,
and that question was a little bit too big.
H.H:
The history of the Yacht Club would take hours to tell you. I mean,
I could go on for four or five hours and talk about the history o f
the Yacht Cl ub. How long could you read through all those books,
and those are all the history of the Yacht Club step by step.
You
wouldn't read it all in one night.
S.R:
No.
H.H:
So how can I answer the history of the Yacht Club in...?
S.R:
Yes, but that was just the question I asked before I shut o f f the
tape.
H.H:
.
At Point Abino they built one club house .. I mean... I can go on
and on in
1860
and then it was around
1902,
or before that, that
they got a... it's the only Yacht Club that has a station in two
different countries, one in the United States and one in Canada.
(
There's no other yacht club that has it.
Now, the only other Yacht
Club that's any older in the Great Lakes is The Royal Canadian
Yacht Club in Toronto.
Then the Buffalo Yacht Club is the fourth
oldest in the continent.
S.R:
What are some other memories that you have of the areas around
here?
H.H:
Yeah, I mentioned the dairy trucks.
S.R:
You had said something about, there was an ice cream man around
and... what you had just said before the tape was on... and Silverwood
and Bordens were on Point Abino Road.
H.H:
Actually, the old sand road ... well right now, the sand hill used
to ... it's just south o f the Yacht Club... the sand hill used to come
right down out to the road.
They used it
•••
All that sand has been taken away.
most of that sand they used to pave the Queen E.from
Niagara Falls to Fort Erie.
A lot of that sand was invaded,
S.R:
H.H:
(
Was that part of the Point Abino Sand Company owned by ... ?
No, that was owned by the Yacht Club when that was taken, the
Yacht Club sold it.
S.R:
Where was the Point Abino Sand Company located?
(10)
�(
H.H:
All through there, the whole Point.
I
mean, their actual buildings.I
don't know where their actual buildings are. I think one of them
is down in Patterson's Cut there. Some of the old buildings where
the men used to ... boarding houses or whatever you want to call
them, by the Patterson's Cut there. I know where they are, or where
they were.
S.R:
Would you know why it's called Patterson's Cut?
H.H:
Well, that's what we used to call it, because Pattersons used to
own the homes along there. They owned the homes there and that
was a cut by their homes that went over to the west shore. But
it was also Sand Company Road, is what it was.
S.R:
Yes, to get all the sand out to .wherever they had to take it to.
H.H:
They'd go take the sand ... go out here and go up and then they'd
take that cut to go over to the west shore. That was the cut. We
used to call it, in my days when I was a kid, we called it Patterson's
Cut. Then, just on the sand hill that's next to the Yacht Club, just
on the other side of that toward the lighthouse, there is another
(
path, it was a path just then. I know all the. . . a lot of these were
just paths. There is also a path on top of the sand hill and there
is another path right behind the Yacht Club that went over to the
other shore, the west shore. Later on, the path on the lighthouse
side became... when the Township, Bertie Township wanted the
water intake, they built the water intake over on the west shore
there, so that became Pumphouse Road. But that's all part of Bill
Bairds property now.
S.R:
What about the lighthouse? What can you tell me about the lighthouse?
H.H:
Oh, I used to love the old fog horn a lot better than the new one.
That old fog horn used... you loved to listen to it. The new screech
owl that you listen to
.•.
S.R:
Why did they change it then?
H.H:
Well,,! wish they never would have because I don't like the sound
of this one and we loved the sound of the old one and it was powerful.
You ask the people in charge why they changed it, I don't know.
They're changing them all I guess. What that has to do with... that
(
doesn't have anything to do with the history of the Point here though.
We used to love the sound of that old fog horn. It would just echo
through all these hills. It was beautiful.
(11)
�Do you know how long the lighthouse has been there?
H.H:
Well, now you've started to ask me dates off the cuff here.
S.R:
N o I mean
H.H:
(
S.R:
I
100
years,
200 years?
don't have all these figures, dates, at the tip of my tongue. It's
right on the lighthouse, I can find it quick enough but I can't answer
it over an oral interview. I could write it up better for you.
S.R:
Then, going back down the lake to ...
H.H:
They got the date right on the lighthouse. It's right there, you can
�ee it. I forget all these dates.
S.R:
Going back then to Crystal Beach, Crystal Beach used to have boats
going back and forth ... you have a lot of pictures of boats ... were
you ever on the Canadiana and the Americana?
H.H:
Oh yeah, the Canadian.a and the Americana, many a time.
S.R:
Were there any other boats other than the two of those, to go to
Crystal Beach?
H.H:
Oh, there was a lot of boats before them. You had your State of
New York used to pull in there. There again,
(
I
have a whole list
of boats, but I... then I. .. I can't ... without pulling out my files...
S.R:
That's why it's oral history, it's what you remember.
H.H:
Yeah, but I don't remember those. I mean, you asked me a question
and I can answer it, but I can't answer it in two seconds here, I have
to go pull out ... I know the State of New York, the State of Ohio,
that used to pull into the docks but there was a lot more than that
that pulled into those docks. That dock that's out there now is not
the original dock. They had two docks before that that· were out
there.
S.R:
What were they like? Were they jµst wooden?
H.H:
They're wooden docks on wooden columns.
S.R:
Isn't it a cement one now?
H.H:
Yeah.
S.R:
So that's why? The wooden ones just gradually rotted away and
then they had to replace them.
H.H:
Well, they kept rebuilding docks. The ice storms, the ice would
do their damage and storms would do their damage. Well, you look
(
at the shape of this dock now, the cement dock.
S.R:
Do you know ...?
(12)
�H.H:
Look at your Erie Beach dock, it's still there, only the ice does it's
damage unless you're using them and maintaining them all the time.
S.R:
Could you tell me what the Americana and the Canadiana were
like?
H.H:
Hmm, they were very gracious boats, beautiful.
S.R:
How many people would they hold?
H.H:
Oh,
3,000 people.
But there again you're asking me for figures and
I don't want to give a lot of misleading information, because I don't
have the exact figures. I'm saying approximately. These kind of
questions, you know, I like to answer them correctly. Just off the
cuff I don't know what the figures are.
figures. I never paid attention to them.
was approximately
3,000 people,
I
don't remember all the
I
know that, around ... there
maybe more.
S.R:
Could you explain why you said they were gracious, describe them?
H.H:
You've got to be a yachtsman or somebody that appreciates boats
to understand what I'm talking about. They were just beautiful
and that's what everybody still says about the boats, and to see
(
them glide through the water and to see them coming in, to see
them passing, just the way they were built, the shape and the lines
they had. Then you'd hear the bands playing on them and everything
else. That was part of Crystal Beach, just the same as the old Cyclone
was part of Crystal Beach, just the same as the Dance Hall, the
big Ballroom was... that was Crystal Beach. It was a family park
then, no gates around it.
S.R:
Who started Crystal Beach? Would you know how it started? Was
it Rebstock?
H.H:
Well, originally Erie Beach and Crystal Beach, they were more campgrounds.
A lot of these parks were religious campgrounds, you know, they
started out as groves. Crystal Beach was the same way. Now, Rebstock
was... Rebstocks were very active in the beginning there. Then
George Hall got in there ... and there again I'd have to double check
when you're asking for names, but I know that Rebstock and Hall...
S.R:
So when Rebstock owned it it was religious campgrounds and they
would have their summer meetings and group meetings and stuff
(
there in the summertime. Did Rebstock start to put rides in for
attractions?
( 13)
�(
H.H:
That part of it I can't,right off the cuff ... to get it correctly I. ..
I have pictures of the grove and postcards. I have all t he postcards
that were the old boats that used to pull in there and the old rides,
what it used to look like. As to the... and I even probably have it
written up here someplace as to who started the park, whether it
was Rebstock, when they started to build the rides. I'm not sure
when they started to build the rides. It's the same thing as... I have
pictures of the old Peg Leg Railroad.
S.R:
Could you tell me what that is?
H.H:
It was an elevated railroad. It ran from Crystal Beach to Fort Erie,
and not too many people have ever heard of it, the Peg Leg Railroad,
but I have the pictures.
S.R:
Could you describe how it operated?
H.H:
Well, it was just a car... it was electric.
S.R:
Describing how the posts were and how it...?
H.H:
Well, it was elevated. It was an elevated railroad. It was a one
track railroad, and it was elevated on stilts. How many years it
(
operated I don't know. I'm still looking into that myself. But I've
got pictures of it and there's more history on it but it's awful hard
to find. I showed you the two pictures of it and the best way to
do it is for you to describe it or I can look at it. It's elevated on
columns... a trestle, just like a big long trestle.
S.R:
And it had an open coach.
H.H:
Yeah, it had an open car, on top, and it just worked by electric.
S.R:
Living in Point Abino, where did you do your shopping? Do they
have any stores, corner stores, post office, any Fire Department,
Police Department, or anything?
H.H:
We used to shop, do a lot of our grocery shopping right in Crystal
Beach. Kimberly's was on the corner of Derby Road and Erie Road,
the grocery store... big ... Kimberly's. In Crystal Beach you had
Kimberly's, you also had Smith's. That was on Erie Road. That
building's still there.
S.R:
H.H:
(
Point Abino didn't have any stores at all?
For fresh vegetables we used to go up to Welland to the open air
market up there. I can remember going up there for fresh vegetables
then. Then you had stands all over the place for fresh vegetables.
( 14)
�(
S.R:
But there wasn't just a corner store around or anything like that?
H.H:
There used to be a little store right up here on Point Abino Road.
What's Bob's last name again?
Bob owns the house where the store
was. I'm just trying to think of Bob's last name. I know it as well
as I know my own'but I just can't think of it.
S.R:
Where are the cabins that you mentioned?
H.H:
That's where Tiffneys is now. That there was there a long time.
S.R:
Tiffneys is the little store?
H.H:
Well, it's just a little store.
There's a lot of little stores around.
There's... Sherkston used to have a general store going down Sherkston
Road there.
Right by where the railroad tracks cross Sherkston
Road, a store .and a post office and the train went right there, in
Sherkston.
S.R:
Speaking of trains, what kind of train service did Point Abino have,
or didn't they?
H.H:
Actually there was a ... in one of these houses up there in Point
Abino, I think it's next to the Pan-Am House,
(
I
think it used to
be a post office for the old Grand Trunk Line or whatever went
through here.
S.R:
think that house was moved up there.
Where is the old Grand Trunk Line?
go through?
H.H:
I
Well,
I
Where in Point Abino did it
Was there a station?
think that there's... the only ones that I know of... I mean,
you're asking me way back originally, I can't answer that.
But,
right where it goes through now, right up Point Abino �oad.
You've
still got a railroad track there. It crosses Sherkston Road and it
goes through Ridgeway.
S.R:
Was there a train depot or anything that you could get on and off
or did you have to go to Ridgeway to use the train service?
H.H:
Well, I think we went to... yeah... no, I think you could get on and
off at Sherkston.
I don't know whether you �ould get on and off
at Point Abino Road, but a lot of these trains, milk trains and stuff,
they'd ... you could probably flag them down.
Whether there was
a station on Point Abino Road or not, I don't know.
(
There was one
on Sherkston Road up there where the tracks cross and there is
also your Ridgeway station.
That's all
I know
of.
But on the Peg
Leg Railroad there used to be a train station right in Crystal Beach,
(15)
�(
about where the bus stop is, right across from the original drugstore,
the old main entrance to the park, right at the foot of Derby Road
and Erie Road.
There used to be a train station right in there.
S.R:
Is there anything else you can recall about the train system?
H.H:
Well, there's a
•.•
I have pictures of a lot of the train wrecks that
happened up here, in the area. There was one just ea�t of Ridgeway,
there was a train wreck, and we have pictures of the train wreck
right up here on the ... when a train hit one of Jackson's trucks on
·Point Abino Road, we have pictures of that wreck.
That was the latest one.
That was later.
Well, that's just the train wrecks in the
area, different ones.
S.R:
Going on to smuggling, you said you knew things about smuggling
in the area.
H.H:
I don't know too much about smuggling in the area, except that
old Gordie Haun always said that he us.ed to be a rum runner, or
whatever you want to call it, you know, but it was all booze mostly ...
nothing about the Chinese in this area that I know of.
(
S.R :
Was it a very big thing, the rum running around here?
H.H:
In those days sure it was, I mean, in those days.
S.R:
During the Prohibition?
H.H:
Yeah.
They used to have all kinds of things down in Fort Erie,
there's all kinds of stories. In fact, we were just talking about,
I don't know, recently, about some of the rigs they used to have
to smuggle across the Niagara River, in the Fort Erie area.
S.R:
What kinds of rigs?
H.H:
Oh, they'd have underwater rigs, rigs for Chinamen, and oh, I forget
now.
That's something else I'd have to go into, to talk to you about.
S.R:
What did Point Abino do for a Police Department or a Fire Department?
H.H:
Crystal Beach,
S.R:
Crystal Beach had a Police station and a Fire Station?
H.H:
Yeah, we always ... everything was Crystal Beach.
Then later on
Crystal Beach would just service Crystal Beach property and if
there's a fire up here, I think a lot of it came out of Ridgeway,
but this is mostly Crystal Beach would service this.
(
S.R:
You had mentioned something about the Town of Ridgeway starting
in a different spot than it is right now?
(16)
�(
H.H:
Well, let me put it this way, the main part of the Town of Ridgeway
and the general store, is now Smokey Trider's house, which is on
the south east corner where Nigh and Ridge meet.
That house
used to be the old general store and I don't know, there used to
be a horse livery.
You'd have to talk to them about the history,
but it was his wife's family.
That used to be the general store and
the main part of the beginning of Ridgeway.
S.R:
Would you know what his wife's family name was?
H.H:
No.
S.R:
Do you recall what other industry _Ridgewp.y had, changes ... ?
Did
you know anything about the fires in Ridgeway?
H.H:
No, I didn't kn9w anything about the fires, at least I never saw
them. A lot of things h�ven't changed that much in th area, you
_
know. You had Stewart's Drug· Store, you had Beeshy's, you had
�
the sweater shop that used to be there in Ridgeway.
S.R:
What did you do around Point Abina for entertainment ... dances,
on. a date, the closest movie theatre, things like that?
You'd go to Crystal Beach.
S.R:
Did Crystal Beach have a cinema?
H.H:
(
H.H:
We didn't go to movies that much over here. If I go to a movie...
oh yeah, Crystal Beach had a cinema.
S.R:
In the park itself?
H.H:
No, not in the park, right on Ridge Road.
S.R:
Was it owned by the Ziffs?
H.H:
Who?
S.R:
The Ziffs had two movie theatres in Fort Erie, and they used to...
H.H:
I don't know who it was owned by, I mean, I don't remember who
it was owned by.
But there is a movie theatre there.
think it had an explosion and burned down.
In fact, I
It was right next to
where the Fire Hall, right in that area there, where the Crystal
Beach Fire Hall was.
was a fire.
That's where the movie theatre was. There
That's not too long ago.
But, in my days, you asked
me where we went out, when we went out and there was no place
to go we went to the
(
Canoe Club.
We used to have dances there.
They had dances out in the boat house.
They still do.
active, teenage dances and stuff like that.
(17)
It was very
You'd go to the Canoe
�(
Club or you'd go to Crystal Beach, or you'd go down to the Royal
Ballroom.
S.R:
What was that?
H.H:
That's right at Crystal Beach... right where Bay Beach meets Crystal
Beach, at the west end.
S.R:
Is it still there?
H.H:
The building's still there. It's owned by Rebstock. It's used for
summer homes, or apartments.
S.R:
H.H:
·Oh, that place.
Yeah, it's right on the shore. It's where the old Royal Hotel used
to be. There used to be a hotel there, way back.
S.R:
Is that before you were here?
H.H:
It was before my time, yeah.
.
You're going back a little while, I'm
not that old.
S R:
They have all these boating facilities here, where there any big...?
H.H:
Yeah, and in Crystal Beach there used to be another hotel just
up from the Brewers there, the Bon-Air.
(
That was right in on top
of the hill there. It was the Bon-Air. I've got postcards showing
that.
S.R:
That's not there anymore?
H.H:
No, no, no, it's all gone. Now, you had Dexters Rolling Rink there
in Crystal Beach. That was one .of the original main attractions.
S.R:
Was that in the park?
H.H:
In the park.
Then you also had the Old Mill there. That was an
old attraction.
They had the Fun House, that was a main attraction.
S.R:
What was the Old Mill?
H.H:
Where you take a boat through...
S.R:
Lover's Lane type thing.
H.H:
Yeah, you know, it was all enclosed.
all dark and you come onto a scene.
You come out of... it was
The Old Mill. Then there
was the Fun House, the Cyclone, the Dance Hall, and the Fen-is
Wheel.
S.R:
H.H:
(
Were you ever on the Cyclone?
Oh yeah, lots of times.
The Merry-Go-Round, the train. I liked
the Cyclone. I thought it was a great one, they gave you a good
ride.
(18)
�(
S.R:
It got your stomach real good, did it?
H.H:
Nope, it didn't bother me at all. Not like these twirly things they
have. It was just a good thrill ride. I liked the Cyclone.
S.R:
Have you ever been on the Comet?
H.H:
Oh yeah, I've been on that.
S.R:
How would it compare to the Comet?
H.H:
Tame. I mean, the Comet's tame compared to the Cyclone.
S.R:
Would you know why the Cyclone isn't there anymore?
H.H:
Why the Cyclone isn't there?
Well, that's a question you had better
ask the Crystal Beach Company, not me. I would say that it was
probably due to the insurance company and whatever.
S.R.:
Was anybody ever hurt on it?
H.H:
Oh yeah, there's been people killed on it, by falling out, but I'm
not saying that it's the fault of the ride, it's probably the fault
of the person riding it, you know, acting up, standing up and doing
things they shouldn't do.
(
S.R:
Like on the Comet people have been killed by the same things,
falling out.
H.H:
Well, I mean, that happens on any of these things when there's somebody
out there doing things they shouldn't do.
S.R:
With all these boating facilities around were there ever any big
races, or famous things like that here?
H.H:
Well, the Canoe Club, you have all your
••.
of races, always has been.
well, there's all kinds
Now, right back when the Canoe Club
used to have the old war c.anoe.
The old war canoe's still hanging
in the top of the boat house there, one of the old war canoes.
You
can see it.
big
old war
•••
They used to have canoe races at the canoe club
Indian war canoes.
S.R:
Why were they war canoes?
H.H:
That's what they were.
S.R:
Oh, they were just canoes used during the war?
H.H:
No, they're big canoes.
You'd have to see them. I mean, you're
asking things that you can't even
•••
you've never heard of and you
can't visualize. They are super big canoes.
(
••.
S.R:
How many people would they hold?
H.H:
A whole bunch .
(19)
�(
S.R:
Oh, big.
H.H:
Now do you know what I'm talking about?
S.R:
Yes.
Was it just local races or races that brought in a lot of people
from other cities?
H.H:
It would be whatever yacht clubs were around.
It could be Erie
Yacht Club, Buffalo Yacht Club, Buffalo Canoe Club, maybe it'd
be Dover Yacht Club
••.
I don't know when they were formed. I
don't know if they were formed that early or not, but whenever
·these other yacht clubs were formed, the other yacht clubs would
participate. Plus you have your own races among the clubs.
have their own races within the clubs
.•.
within the clubs. Then
later on, you know, in more recent years, you get into the
••.
I can go back in the Canoe Club, they had the Knockabouts.
about the size of a
21
foot sailboat.
They
well,
That's
You had the Knockabouts,
you had the Snipes, which is a smaller, a little smaller boat, about
a
16
foot sailboat.
You had classes of those.
You had
•••
and then
the Knockabout fleet got burned out by fire at the Canoe Club
and it was replaced by the Lightning fleet, which is about a
(
21
foot boat, a sailboat. The Lightning fleet, now you're talking about
a... well, it ended up, the Lightning fleet, they ended up having
World championship, let alone North American and all the others.
We have a lot of World championship in a lot of different class
races right here in this bay now.
S.R:
Still?
H.H:
Right now. It has been going on for quite a few years. I mean,
you don't, you probably don't realize all the boating activity that's
out here. On some days there's thousands of boats out there. There's
you have the Sharks, you have all
•••
There's a lot of different classes,
I mean, I don't know what all went on this year.
of races out here.
from Buffalo.
They had all kinds
You'll have a Mayor's Cup Regada going in here
You have the Erie Dover Races, the Maitland Erie
Dover Races, Dunkirk Races
•••
these are all bigger boats, cruising
class sailboats. Oh, there's all types of class racing.
You have
all types. There's all types of fleets out there. I mean new ones,
(
all new boats.
S.R:
Would you know why the Americans settled this part?
(20)
•.•
�(
H.H:
Why-it's a
15
minute drive from downtown Buffalo.
They used
it for summer homes.
S.R:
Well, why didn't Canadians buy it?
H.H:
Well, because the Canadians living in the area at the time had their
homes. They would live where they worked or farmed, by the grocery
store, in around the town, so why-five minutes away would they
build a summer home.
S.R:
Well, why didn't the Canadians build their winter homes here?
H.H:
Because it's too far away from the centre part of town.
S.R:
Those towns started someplace.
. H.H:
What?
S.R:
The Canadian towns started someplace...
H.H:
Crystal Beach.
S.R:
Yeah.
Well, you know, I can't understand why-it was that the Americans
had to settle this.
H.H:
(
Why would they come out into the woods in Point Abina?
There's
a few, yeah, there's a few.
S.R:
Well, they had to clear the other places.
Everything was woods
at one time.
H.H:
Well, alright, so it started in Crystal Beach, in Ridgeway. That's
where it started.
I mean, you asked me a question, why wouldn't
the Canadians build where?
Fort Erie?
so they settled along Fort Erie.
They started Fort Erie
They settled around where there's
water or there's this and that and...
S.R:
So Point Abino didn't have any industry or anything like that to
attract the Canadians so then the rich Americans liked the looks
of it.
H.H:
No.
Well, Point Abino was just strictly a summer resort area, strictly
a resort area, but there were industries.
S.R:
H.H:
Okay, so it didn't really have anything to offer.
H.H:
\
Point Abino is just a point of land going out into Lake Erie.
S.R:
(
But the other towns had to start someplace.
Well, the only thing out here was, they had some lumbering on the
Point and they had sand, the sand company... Point Abino, and Sherkston
had a quarry.
You get all of the stone out of these, and Windmill
Point had a quarry.
We had three quarries. They get all the rock
(21)
�(
out of there . They take it and they built the Buffalo breakwater
with a lot of that rock, plus other things. That's where they got
a lot of that rock.
No, Point Abino isn't an industrial area.
It's
strictly a ... there's no industry out here.
S.R:
Well, that's why I say, like Crystal Beach and Fort Erie, they all
had to start at some point, you know, some focal point, and I was
just ... that point could have easily been put around Point Abino,
as around Fort Erie and Crystal Beach or Ridgeway, to have the
.Canadians in the settlement.
H.H:
Well, a lot of that has to do with your... where do your roads go,
and where do you get crossroads, and where does your train decide
to go through?
So, wherever the trains start going through, then
that's where you get your main roads going through and that's where
you get your crossroads, and that's where they'll start a settlement.
S.R:
Okay, so yes, Fort Erie was started through the trains then, so you
had all the Canadian settlements around the trains, okay, so then,
Point Abino had really nothing to offer for the Canadians.
H.H:
Point Abino was just out in the country.
S.R:
That's what I was just saying.
H.H:
(
That's all, Point Abino is just out in the country.
You can go out
and fish, and then there's ... as I say, except for the sand company
and the lumber, that's all the Point was. It was just a bunch of
sand hills. As a matter of fact, years ago it used to be just sand
hills and a bunch of little lakes, like ... our backyard here was, that
was all lake. Our backyard, the water level right now is only about
two foot below the grass ... you know, about two foot down was
water level.
S.R:
So, the lake's shrunk this much then?
H.H:
Well, I think that the lakes used to be higher.
way back.
Is that what you mean?
Now, you're going
You're going back several hundreds of years. I don't
know just when ... that's way way back. It was when the Indians
where here.
The sand hills shift too, they move. I've seen this
big sand hill, over here, I've seen it move a lot. I can remember
when certain trees... I can go back and show you where all of a
(
sudden that tree used to be, you know, no sand hill, and all of a
sudden the sand hill is half way up these big trees.
(22)
�(
S.R:
From ground shift or from the wind?
H.H:
The wind blowing.
S.R:
You recalled a couple more Crystal Beach businesses?
H.H:
Yeah, Woolover was your photographer there. He used to have
It just keeps moving it, erosion, they move them.
his o ffice on Derby Road, where the old post o ffice used to be.
A fire burnt his store of operation out, and all his negatives and
pictures and everything else went with that.
that had
•••
I
know another one
mostly it was very big down in the park, were your ·novelties
·and things, that was Sherrif's. They had their stands down in there,
in the park itself.
I remember the old Park Hotel on DerbyRoad.
In fact the, i f you go down there now
•••
that's on Derby Road
•••
it's a vacant lot and you can still see some tile from the floors.
It's still there.
S.R:
Who was the first political representative that you can remember
from around here, a reeve, mayor?
Did Point Abina ever have it's
own Council or was it Crystal Beach?
H.H:
(
No, it was Crystal Beach. Point Abina didn't have anything that
I know of, or remember.
S.R:
So who was the first reeve then that you can remember?
H.H:
I
really forget.
there.
I
remember Jack Milligan was Mayor for a while
When it comes to names of all these mayors and politicians,
I forget names.
S.R:
· Yau had mentioned to me that Milligan was the ice cream man,
and through hearsay and stories that he was a bookiQ. or something
but none of that was said on tape.
H.H:
Yeah, I think I know where he operated out of too.
S.R:
Where would that be?
H.H:
On Derby Road.
S.R:
Where was his little ice cream operation run from?
H.H:
I'm trying to remember where he kept his ice cream trucks.
S.R:
Did he peddle it around?
H.H:
Oh yeah.
The ice cream truck ringing the bell.
ice cream trucks.
He'd ring the bell, yeah.
best ice cream call there was.
(
He had several
He'd call.
He had the
We used to ride the trucks.
You
had Northern Springs. Now, Northern Springs had pop, Northern
Springs pop, soda water.
Northern Springs also manufactured coca
(23)
�cola here in Crystal Beach. There's a Northern Springs coke bottle,
(
and that's a rare find. Now, I have a lot of Crystal Beach midway
bottles.
S.R:
H.H:
Oh, that's just the bottles of pop that were sold in the park?
Yeah, midway, and I think it was put out by Northern Springs though,
but Northern Springs was a big
had no water out here.
• • •
and they used to deliver.
It was mostly
�.11
sulphur.
We
We· had to drill
our own wells, and Northern Springs would deliver your water for
.you, your drinking water.
S.R:
For a boy, if he wanted a summer job while he was over here, what
would he do to make a few dollars spending money?
. H,H:
Work in the park or, I don't know, clean boats.
You're ... as far
as the summer residents is concerned, most o f them weren't looking
for summer jobs then, you know, you go back in those days.
Another
business that was very popular was Kinsmans in Ridgeway.
S.R:
H.H:
(
What was that?
Oh, you'd get all your sweaters and. china.
S.R:
Something like Beeshy's?
H.H:
No, Beeshy's was always china. Hers was more of a sweater shop
and woolens and, you know, things like that, and she had both.
She had some china too.
S.R:
More crafts?
H.H:
No, not crafts, not crafts.
S.R:
H.H:
Already made.
China. China, good woolens, no crafts. I'm talking about Braemars
and, I mean, the good stuff, Braemar · sweaters. I'm talking about
your good, good woolen store, your good Canadian woolens. I mean
everything... you're looking at modernized where everything is
made in Taiwan, Hong Kong, or so on and so forth.
Your good stuf f
was all, I mean, your Canadic woolens were the best.
m
.
S.R:
Yes.
H.H:
They were.
You had the sweater shop and you had Kinsmans, and
they were the two big ones.
You had Beeshy's which was your expensive
china. You could go in and you could buy wool material by the
(
yards in either one of them.
But Kinsman also had, she also had
china, good china. I remember when Crystal Beach had it's own
(24)
�post office, Fire Department, Police Department, you had Brodie's
(
Drug Store, you had Kimberly's Food Market, they had Smith's Food
Market, you had Woolovers photographer, you had Borden's Dairy,
Northern Springs, of course you had Crystal Beach Planing Mill...
S.R:
So why doesn't Crystal Beach have all these things anymore?
Was
it from the amalgamation?
H.H:
You're asking an embarassing question.
S.R:
Why would it be embarassing?
H.H:
.Because I don't want to get into politics.
S.R:
Was it from the amalgamation then
H.H:
As far as I'm concerned it is.
S.R:
You have a little story about the Point?
H.H:
•••
regional?
Well, we can talk about the Point and some of the wrecks around
here. I can remember the Britain, a grain freighter ... it was a grain
freighter or flax seed or something, but it was basically a grain
freighter... ran aground off the lighthouse off of Point Abino, and
I can remember when it was above water.
(
S.R:
H.H:
It's below water now?
Well, they blasted it to level it so many feet below the water.
That's navigation rules with any of the wrecks.
But, then I can
also remember some sand suckers out there trying to pull it off
the rocks.
They would get on the rocks themselves.
lighthouse there used to
•.•
Before the
I have the anchor off the Britain and
.
all the chain, and the anchor is standing right on the front wall
out here, next to it. I also... I'm also a deep sea diver and marine
salvage, and I also have the ships bell off the Britain.
Nobody's
seen that. It's a big brass bell and I found it down in the wreckage
off the Britain. The old
•••
it would be before the lighthouse, they
used to have a light ship off the Point, and it went down in a storm,
and I have the years and dates and everything like that. I can't
just come up with them right now, and there's a whole story about
it, and everybody thinks that light ship is still out there.
Well,
they'd found it and they salvaged it and they turned it into a training
ship.
I have the name of the ship, what the ship was when it was
restored and converted and I have the whole story of the ship going
down, the old light ship off of Point Abino, and the number and
(25)
�the whole story on it.
(
S.R:
Were there any other wrecks that you would know about?
H.H:
I found, off the Point about a mile out, now I recovered and old
Spanish windlass in the bay here. I had old Jack Sinclair, who was
the last of the clipper ship sailors, go up and look at it. He is the
one that said that it was an old Spanish Windlass.
Now, I have pictures
of it. It was very large. It must have been, oh, eight foot long
anyway, and the cogs, you know, the gears, the cogs, they were
.carved into wood. It was just a plate, a steel plate on them, and
Jack Sinclair looked at it and he said that that's an old Spanish
windlass. He's the one that called it a Spanish windlass. And he
said that that must be
S.R:
H.H:
250
years old.
And that's still there?
No, it's not st�ll there.
I salvaged it out of the bay.
It's not still
out there, I brought it in.
S.R:
H.H:
(
What would you do with something like that?
I had it in the yard here. I tried to find some museum that would
be interested in it and no museum had room for it.
I went to the
Buffalo Historical Museum and asked them if they wanted it and
they had no place to put it.
So finally, our gardener got out here
and he burnt it and I was sick
..•
I was down in Florida at the time,
and I was sick when I found that out. So, the metal that was on
it, the cogs and everything, I took it up to Port Colborne, to the
marine museum, and the pictures of it and I don't even know whether
they have it on display.
If they don't I'm going up and get it back.
I still have one part of it. I still have... but in the meantime, a
mile off the Point, when I was diving one time, I ran across
•••
this
is strictly by accident ... the remains of an old wreck, an old sailing
ship. It's in about
65
foot of water. Going out from the lighthouse
you have a lot of shelf rock, and then about a mile out you've got
about, you run into
of water,
40
•••
it goes into about
•••
it runs about
35
foot
foot of water, and then you run into a lot of broken
rock, and then it drops right off to about
65
foot of water.
Right
in that area there is where I ran into this little wreck, the remains
(
of it. I can remember that the bowsprit's still down there.
I'll
go out and look for it again some day. The bowsprit's still down
(26)
�(
there and I saw what looked like a big chunk of marble, I mean,
maybe 10-12 foot long, and maybe two foot square, or a foot and
a half square, and I says, "That's not normal rock down here". I
said, "That looks like a chunk of marble". The only way I can figure
that is that they used it for ballast. So ... but I did bring up a lot
of... and I'll show you one of them so I'm not lying. I'll show it to
you. I brought up a lot of block and tackle, you know, old wooden
blocks and old ironwood blocks, everything was wood on it. . . old
· ironwood blocks. They were so amazing. I knew Scott Misener
very well at the time... I had a foundry up in Port Col borne. . . and ·
I
showed some of them to him, some of this block and tackle. Boy,
he'd just love to have some as conversation pieces, so I gave him
most of them and he put them in the fireplace in his office up in
Port Colborne. Of course that's Scott Misener who owns Misener
Steamship of Canada. But I have one here and I'll show it to you.
Now, there's supposed to be a rum runner that sunk off the Pan-Am
House out here in about
(
30-40
foot of water. I never located it.
There's a whole out there. But there's lot of anchors out in the
bay. I've salvaged a lot of big, big anchors. There's one sitting
right out here. There's two of them sitting right outside the door
here. One. . . three of them I gave to the Canoe Club for decoration,
one I have sitting right out here and then there's another one that's
about a 191 2 anchor. Now that's a big one. That's off an old sailing
ship, that black one, painted black out there. There's ... right now
I know where there's an old lumber schooner from Tonawanda that
was brought over here by the Sll)ith boys. They were going to do
something . . . use it for docking facilities for the Buffalo Yacht Club.
I know where that's sunk out there. I also know where there's some
rudders, but I've never brought them up yet because when you bring
them up I like to preserve them, they make a good cocktail table
or something, and they1re big, they're big. I might bring it up and
donate it to the Crystal Beach ... the Canadiana, or somebody. But
I've got to find somebody that's going to use it.
S.R:
Oh, it has to be preserved right away?
H.H:
Yeah.
I
have a lot of stuff I keep... I just. . . I know it's out in the
lake and I keep it there. It's the best place for it, because once
(27)
�(
you bring it up then you've got to preserve it or do something with
it, so as long as it's underwater it stays in good shape. So, there's
a lot of stuff that I have out there that I know where it is and I
just leave it there.
S.R:
That wreck ...?
H.H:
But the one off the Point, I'd love to find that. That could be a
real historical find. When I have time I'll go back out and look for
it again.
S.R: · The one w ith the marble on it?
H.H:
Yeah, that has the marble. Now, they used to use marble ballast.
If you read on this convict ship Success that came through the Great
Lakes, it had Marble ballast. Ballast is what you put to weigh the
boat down, you know, it's down in the bilge of the boat, down in
the bottom of the boat, the inside on the bottom and it gives the
boat weight. It holds them down in the water so it doesn't flip all
over in the waves. But they were marble... that ship there, if I
could ever find it, find out where it is, it could be one of the old
(
fighting ships, you know, the War of
1 812,
or even before.
S.R:
So, are you going to look next summer?
H.H:
I went out this summer with my footometer and found the drop-off
but I... I don't have my diving equipment rigged up.
S.R:
Well, thank you for the interview Mr. Holzworth.
H.H:
You're welcome.
(28)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Shelley Richer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Harvey Holzworth
Location
The location of the interview.
Mr. Holzworth's home on Point Abino Road.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Holzworth, Harvey
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Harvey Holzworth's interview. He discusses such topics as:
Crystal Beach
Point Abino
Ferries
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Erie Beach
Bootlegging
Recreation
Politics and government
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
September 25, 1985
1980s
1985
Crystal Beach
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
ferries
Fort Erie
Oral history
point abino
politics and government
recreation
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/7dc5fd3e8a5e2061afe11102d8a69548.pdf
aa843b88bb3ca60887e6b9acf732bc64
PDF Text
Text
This is Charlotte Nielsen interviewing Miss Everingham at two sixteen High
Street, Fort Erie, April twenty-third, nineteen eighty-five.
C.N.
Tell me your full name.
A.E.
Augusta Louise Everingham.
C.N.
When were you born ?
A.E.
October the twenty-eighth, nineteen hundred.
C.N.
Tell me about your family's business.
A.E.
When I was very small my family had a grocery store down on Niagara
Street.
C.N.
Where abouts on Niagara Street?
A.E.
At the corner of Niagara and Forsythe Street. The building is still
there but it has been remodelled.
C.N.
Could you describe this store?
A.E.
Well, I was a very little person and I can't remember too much about
it except it was a grocery store and vegetables. And the other half
my mother had a millinery shop with all the supplies that you would
use in making hats .
{
C.N.
Did your mother make hats?
A.E.
Yes. She made hats for different people in town and had the supplies
there: material for making hats; some flowers and birds that they
used in those days; ribbons.
C.N.
What kind of hats did she make?
A.E.
Well, most of them were made on a buckram frame as I remember.
A buckram frame was sort of a foundation on which to sew the material.
C.N.
What is buckram?
A.E.
Well it was a stiffened material, almost, I would imagine, some type
of cotton. It was stiffened some way. I don't know. But she bought
the frame: the buckram hats: the frames. And I guess people chose
the style they wanted
•
C.N.
Do you remember any of her customers?
A.E.
No, I just remember
..•
I don't remember any of her customers.
No,
I wouldn't at that time. But in later years a lady had shown me a hat
that was made for her mother that was tied on her head with a ribbon
under her chin as the elderly women wore them in those days.
{
C.N.
And what about your father's business? Do you remember the grocery
store?
(1)
�(
A.E.
Yes. I just vaguely remember the grocery store.
C.N.
What kinds of things did your father sell?
A.E.
Canned goods and smoked meats and cheeses, crackers and biscuits
and I guess bread and buns and things like that that they had in those
days.
C.N.
Do you remember how much any of these items cost?
A.E.
No. I've no idea.
C.N.
Were they sold loose or by the package.
A.E.
Mostly things were loose. Not very many were packaged in those days.
C.N.
Did your father have any kind of delivery service?
A.E.
Yes. I think that he had a horse and wagon. And I believe that for
people who were out of town aways he would drive and get their orders.
And then the next day they'd be delivered.
C.N.
Who would deliver them?
A.E.
I guess he would. Or else maybe somebody ... I don't remember if
he had anybody working for him or not.
C.N.
A.E.
The other side of the store.
C.N.
Did she help your father with his business?
A.E.
Oh I think so. I think so.
C.N.
So it was a joint family enterprise.
A.E.
Yes, I believe so.
C.N.
Now your father had another store later on. How did this come about?
A.E.
(
Now where was your mother's business?
Well. He sold this store and we moved to Toronto where he worked
with my uncle who was in the
•••
had a bakery. And we lived there I
think, for maybe three or four years. I can't remember. And then
there was an opening in Fort Erie of a bakery for sale. And so my
father
.••
We moved back, bought the bakery. We moved back to two
forty-five, High street where the bakery was on the back of the home.
We lived in the house. The shop was in the back.
C.N.
A.E.
Well, bread, buns, loaves, cakes, and pies, and cookies.
C.N.
How much did these things cost?
A.E.
(
What kinds of things did your father sell in the bakery?
Well. I think bread was ten cents a loaf at that time. And I think maybe
the buns were probably twelve cents a dozen. And the cakes I can't
(2)
�(
remember too much. I think maybe pies were twenty-five or thirty
cents. Probably a cake was fifty cents because it had eggs and things
in it and icing. That would make it more expensive. The things were
baked at two forty-five High Street and then we had a store down
on Niagara Street: a confectionery store where the baked goods were
sold. There was an ice cream parlor there and candy.
C.N.
So he would be baking in one place and selling in another?
A.E.
Yes.
C.N.
Did he ever deliver anything?
A.E.
Oh yes. There were two wagons went out every day to deliver. And
I think twice a week
.•.
I think they went up around Erie Beach and
Crescent Beach with the wagon load of such. And the people came
out to the wagon to buy what they wanted.
C.N.
You mentioned Erie Beach. Did he sell to the amusement park or just
to residents in the area?
A.E.
No. I think he sold rolls to the
••.
rolls and finger rolls: Parker House
they were called in those days, to the different concessions that used
(
them.
C.N.
Did you ever go with him when he was delivering things?
A.E.
Oh, maybe once or twice but I can't remember very much about that.
C.N.
You say he sold to the residents along Crescent Beach. Would he go
along the beach or was there a road?
A.E.
No. There'd be a road behind the beach.
C.N.
Were these people dependent on his service?
A.E.
Well, most of them were American people that came over from Buffalo
by ferry. And if they didn't bring their food with them they would
depend upon buying from my father.
C.N.
You say they came over on the ferry. Would they come over without
transportation? Would they be on foot?
A.E.
Well, some of them might have had horse and buggy in the earlier days.
Then I think when cars became more prevalent they came by car.
C.N.
A.E.
I think so.
C.N.
(
Did they bring the horse and buggy on the ferry?
Did you ever go on this ferry yourself?
A.E.
Oh yes, quite often. It was the only way to get across the river: by
ferry.
(3)
�(
C.N.
Could you describe this ferry?
A.E.
Well, there several of them. There was
•••
The first one that I remember
was the Hope, I think. And then there was the Newton. I've kind of
forgotten some of them.
C.N.
What were they like?
A.E.
Just a ferry boat that ran back and forth across the river. You went
on board. It took about
••.
probably about ten minutes to cross by
the time you got on the ferry and got going. And it went up and then
down a bit to the dock on the other side
C.N.
Were these large ferry boats?
A.E.
Oh yes.
C.N.
Would you stand up when you got on? Would there be places to sit?
A.E.
Oh yes and an upstairs in them. There'd be an upstairs in them. Sometimes
when we were little we'd be allowed to go up in the captain's place.
C.N.
What was that like?
A.E.
Well it was
•••
It's where the wheel was, I guess: the steering wheel.
My uncle was the captain on one of the boats.
(
C.N.
Do you remember which one?
A.E.
On the Hope.
C.N.
Do you know very much about his job? Did he work long hours? Was
it difficult?
A.E.
I don't know. He was a marine engineer and captain. I don't know what
to
•••
I think the boat would run
•••
I don't know how many hours he
would work. But it would leave quite early in the morning because
quite a few of the Fort Erie people worked in Buffalo. And they came
went across and up the ferry hill and by streetcar to wherever they
were going to work.
C.N.
This ferry hill
A.E.
Yes.
C.N.
Were there any lineups to get on the ferry? Was it crowded?
A.E.
Well
•••
•••
Was that on the American side?
There would be lineups after automobiles became prevalent.
And during the races
•••
At the race track in Fort Erie
•••
There were
a lot of people that came by ferry to the race track. There wasn't
anyway of getting across the river at that time. And I think returning
(
there would be lineups. And also later in years there would be lineups
(4)
•••
�along Niagara Street, waiting to get on the ferry. Sometimes in the
(
summer there'd be two ferries running: one going across and one returning
to take care of the traffic. And I imagine that's what come out of
the idea of building
a
bridge across the river, hence the present Peace
Bridge.
C.N.
Now you were telling me that there was a bridge built before the Peace
Bridge was built. Could you tell me something about that?
A.E.
Well, it was just a skeleton bridge. I can't tell you too much about
it. But it was across from the King Edward Hotel to the entrance to
the ferry dock. And there were tags
•••
We had a tag day. And I was
one of the taggers and I was very lucky. I happened to approach a car
belonging to Daniel Good who was a wealthy American and lived up
along Crescent Beach. And he put five dollars in my container and
I was quite thrilled with that. Usually I got ten cents or a quarter maybe,
if you were lucky. I don't know what they used the money for afterwards.
I don't remember anything about that.
C.N.
(
Was this skeleton bridge ever used?
A.E.
Oh no. No, no. It wasn't. It was just
•••
It was just a make believe
bridge that was put up for a promotion. I can't remember
•••
C.N.
Do you remember the opening of the Peace Bridge?
A.E.
Yes. The Peace Bridge was opened in August of nineteen twenty-seven.
And my brother was on the customs then
•••
came and said that they
were selling seats in front of the speaker's stand and if we'd come right
away we'd have a place to sit. So I had a lot of company, of course,
for the event. And we were having lunch but we left everything and
hurried down the hill and got a front seat. And it was very interesting
because The Prince of Wales and his brother, The Duke of Kent, Prince
George were there with the Prime Minister Baldwin from England and
some of the dignitaries on this side, a Mr. German, I think, who was
part instigator on this side of organizing the bridge, and the Reeve,
Mr. Douglas. And of course, the soldiers were lined up. And I believe
The Prince of Wales inspected the unit. I think, it was from the Lincoln
Welland Regiment.
C.N.
(
Who was The Prince of Wales?
A.E.
He was the oldest son of The King George and Queen Elizabeth, Queen
Mary.
(5)
�(
C.N.
And that would be?
A.E.
Who was later the Duke of Windsor.
C.N.
Do you remember what they did at this opening besides inspect the
troops? Did they cut a ribbon or anything like that?
A.E.
Yes, they went across the bridge and met with the U. S. group and cut
the ribbon in the middle of the bridge. And then I believe there was
another ceremony over there.
C.N.
How did the first world war affect your family?
A.E.
Well, I was fourteen, of course, when the war broke out. And I can't
remember too much about it excepting that we were rationed. And
we had to have coupons for that. Now my father's business
•••
He had
to have a permit to buy sugar and shortening. And the flour, I believe
was a low grade flour and it didn't make the best bread. But we all
lived through it. In nineteen seventeen my brother joined the expeditionary
force and was sent to Siberia to Valadostok. He was stationed in New
West Minister in British Columbia. And they were shipped overseas.
He said it was a filthy place to be in. But they were there until quite
awhile after the war. And he had his twenty-first birthday coming
back
• ••
ship. And I was at normal school when he returned to Fort
Erie. And so I came home to help in the celebration. The returned
men were given gold watches by the town of Fort Erie, with his name
on it and the insignia which
•••
I think, the watch is still useable.
C.N.
Do you remember the celebration?
A.E.
No. I can't remember very much about what went on. I just don't
remember about that.
C.N.
How did you feel when the war was over?
A.E.
A great relief thinking that it was going to be the end of wars. But
of course, we found out that it wasn't.
C.N.
Did the rationing stop as soon as the war ended?
A.E.
Can't remember too much about that but we were given booklets with
stamps in. And you could have just so much butter and so much sugar
a month.
C.N.
Do you remember whether you had enough or were you missing these
things.
A.E.
No. I think we had sufficient. And I think we learned to manage very
well. And we've all survived. So I guess
(6)
•••
I guess it wasn't too difficult.
�(
C.N.
And after you finished normal school?
A.E.
After I finished normal school I accepted a position at the Wintemute
Street School. It has since been torn down and the senior elementary
school was built. I taught three grades the first year I taught. And
then I took a summer course in kindergarten and primary work for two
summers. And kindergarten, primary was part kindergarten and part
primary work. And in those days the children had to be five by the
end of September. So they were ready for quite a bit of primary work.
And we taught them their numbers and number facts and very easy
addition questions. And we taught them reading, word recognition,
phonics, phonograms. And they were
•••
The better of
•••
I shouldn't
say better. But the more mature ones went on into a senior grade one.
And the others were in a junior grade one and needed more extra work.
C.N.
When you talk about senior grade one and junior grade one are you
talking about what they did the following year?
A.E.
C.N.
(
Yes.
Did you feel the children were in any way better prepared for school
back then thanthey are today?
A.E.
Yes. Well they were five by the end of the year, by the end of September.
And they were much more mature than children who were taken in
who won't be five until up in December. It makes quite a difference
in their ability to learn.
C.N.
So you're saying the children spent more time at home before starting
school.
A.E.
Yes.
C.N.
You speak of going back to get further qualifications. Did you change
schools after you got your kindergarten qualifications?
A.E.
No. I was at Wintemute Street for about twelve years and then there
was an opening in the Douglas School which was next door to where
we lived which was much easier for me because my mother had passed
away in nineteen twenty-seven.
C.N.
What was her name?
A.E.
Harriet. And my father
•••
It was easier for me to get
more time in the home because I was nearer of course.
(
C.N.
Could you describe Douglas School?
(7)
• ••
to spend
�A.E.
Douglas School. It's a brick building.
There's ten rooms in it.
And
it sits on the brow of a hill with a terraced front, with steps to get
up and down.
And so1'!e of the children came from the lower part
of Fort Erie.
A large number came from those who live on top of
the hill.
Now I guess ...
When I came to the kindergarten room in
Douglas School I was asked to arrange for a class of thirty for supplies.
But on opening day I had forty-seven register.
And it was quite a
problem trying to find out how to work with forty-seven little children
who had never been in a building and disciplined before.
chairs and seats at the tables for just the thirty.
I had to figure out what could be done with them.
I had thirty
And the seventeen ...
So I had them work
at the blackboard with chalk. And I gave seatwork to the ones at
the table.
shifts.
And then I would have to change, alternating three different
And after a short tioe you'd find out the ones who could go
faster and divided them in groups one, two and three.
But after a
week of figuring that out, I tested the older ones and they were moved
into a junior grade one.
And then the rest of us were settled down
to our routines.
C.N.
Do you have any idea why the predicted number of children that year
was so far out?
A.E.
I have no idea. In later years I made the suggestion that children
should be brought in the ...
in the spring and brought into the classroom
to witness what was going on and to see the teacher, get used to co Ming
in a big brick building and then they should be registered at that tioe.
So that gave us an idea in later years to know how many to expect
and to arrange for supplies and such.
And at first it was turned down
by one of the principals in town but then she finally came around to
my way of thinking.
And since that it has carried on that children
are registered in the spring which is rnuch better really.
who they're going to see when they get there.
going to happen, what the others enjoy ...
C.N.
Now I believe they closed this school:
A.E.
Yes.
And they know what's
watching the other children.
Douglas School.
They closed one of the schools a couple of years ago:
School.
(
They know
the }father
Douglas School was to be closed in June nineteen eighty-four.
And they had an open house.
And a great many of the teacher's
...
Not a lot of them but quite a few of them that were available returned
for the reunion.
(8)
�(
C.N.
Vlho were these teacher's?
A.E.
Well, I'll try and remember some of them.
There was Miss Rose who
was Hrs. Smeall and she was from }·fississauga.
who was Candice Shisler fr o m Welland.
was Hrs. Fretz from Port Colborne;
Logan from Hamilton;
There was Hrs. Frame
There was Lotta lkNeil who
and Helen Batt who was Hrs.
Pat Hughes who
...
at least Pat
Kane who
and l:A:rs. Hastings
was Hrs. Hughes from up near Burlington area;
And there was
from up near Ridgeville who was Miss Van Patter.
Hiss Sumner who is now �frs. McDonald from Waterloo;
Mrs. Yelenik
v.;ho vrns Olga Suderman from St. Catharines.
C.N.
Did you ever take your students on school trips?
A.E.
Before the second war The Queen Elizabeth and King George were
coming to Canada.
Erie ...
Falls.
And it was arranged
all the schools in Fort Erie would be taken by train to Niagara
It was quite a chore.
the hill.
We got to th e falls and paraded down
And it was arranged that we line up in the park area near
where the Oneida Silver place is.
(
up
that the schools in both Fort
And we got all these children lined
and waiting patiently for the tour to come by.
Then the authorities
lined all the soldiers up in front of the children guarding the route
so thev couldn't see anything.
All they could see ...
All I could see,
and I was an adult, was the top of her beautiful blue hat.
And finally
The King and Queen came out on a balcony, up quite a few flights
at the General Brock and all you could see
savi ...
hat.
" ° '
and all the children
by pointing to theP.1, after standing all this tirne1 was her blue
It was badly arranged.
It seemed as though there were streets
where these children could have been lined along the route and had
a first hand glance at the beautiful Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother.
However, coming home on the train they ran out of water.
could imagine the problems with children.
So you
It was a bit of a nightmare.
But 2.nyhow ...
C.N.
Did you ever take the children anywhere else:
smaller trips, perhaps
the library?
A.E.
No.
They didn't have those trips.
in those days.
They didn't arrange trips like that
We probably had a little ...
Some of the teachers, I
think, took them on picnics up to the old fort but my children were
too young.
We had usually at the end of the year ...
We had a little
get together on the lawn and had an ice cream cone which made a
good picnic.
(9)
�(
C.N.
Did you ever go to the Erie Beach Amusement Park yourself?
A.E.
Oh yes, quite often even as a littel girl. There was a train. We called
it the dummy. Some people called it the Snake Hill Pacific. It ran
all along the lakeshore up to Erie Beach. And that was of course, before
the Peace Bridge was built and opened. And it would meet the ferry
and the people would come across from Buffalo on the ferry and ride
the train up to Erie Beach and whatever
•••
It was quite an amusement
park. And there was a beautiful dance pavilion there.
C.N.
A.E.
It was for transportation to get to the amusement park.
C.N.
Did you have to pay to go on it?
A.E.
Oh yes. I can't remember what it cost.
C.N.
Were there any rides at the park?
A.E.
Oh yes. It was quite a busy summer resort.
C.N.
Did you go on any of these rides.
A.E.
Oh. I imagine I did. I can't remember anything about that.
C.N.
(
Was this little train used for transportation or for amusement?
What did you do there?
A.E.
Wandered around the park, I guess and bought an ice cream cone which
was really something in those days; probably took a
maybe took
a lunch and something to eat. I just don't remember.
C.N.
Did you ever go to the dance hall?
A.E.
Yes, as I grew older.
C.N.
What was that like?
A.E.
Beautiful place
•••
just a beautiful place. But when the sandflies were
bad which Fort Erie's noted for it was terrible. When the lights were
on the sandflies were terrible. The next morning I guess they just swept
them up in droves. They only lived twenty-four hours.
C.N.
So, were these sandflies inside a building or outside?
A.E.
Oh, wherever there was a light. The pavilion was open you see
the windows
.• •
• ..
So, it was a beautiful dance hall. And they had lighting
and a lovely floor. But that building has since been torn down.
C.N.
Did they feature live bands?
A.E.
Oh yes.
C.N.
Do you remember any of these?
A.E.
No. I can't remember.
(10)
�(
C.N.
Where else did you go for entertainment besides Erie Beach?
A.E.
Well, we went to Buffalo, to the theatre. It was a live theatre and
moving pictures theatres there.
C.N.
Whereabouts?
A.E.
Down on Main Street: the Teck Theatre there. And then there were
• ••
There was a Victoria Movie House up on Ferry Street that you could
walk from the ferry up there in those days. And then later the Ziff
family opened the Bellard Movie Pictures on Dufferin Street in Fort
Erie, Bridgeburg at the time. And we sometimes went down there.
And then later on they built the one on Niagara Street opposite the
ferry dock called the Parkway. And they had good pictures. We went
there quite often.
C.N.
A.E.
Well, the up to date movie pictures, I think.
C.N.
I'm sorry. I don't know what time period we're talking about.
A.E.
I don't know. I can't either. It would be along in the thirties, I think.
C.N.
(
What kind of movies would you see at the Ziff's Movie House?
Were you watching silent movies at the Ziff's Theatre or talkies.
A.E.
I think, they were talkies. And one of the daughters played the piano.
And I think, Mrs. Ziff sold the tickets.
C.N.
I thought they just played the piano at the silent movies. Am I mistaken?
A.E.
Now I could be wrong. Yes, maybe some of them were silent. I really
can't remember. Oh dear!
C.N.
A.E.
On Niagara Street, opposite the ferry dock.
C.N.
What kind of movies did you watch there?
A.E.
They showed all the up to date movies as they were available.
C.N.
Do you know when this second movie house was opened?
A.E.
No. I really can't remember.
C.N.
You have a picture here of a rhythm band. This is one of your classes?
A.E.
Yes.
C.N.
Do you remember about what year this would be?
A.E.
I think that was ... Does it say nineteen forty on the back?
C.N.
Oh. Nineteen forty, forty-one.
A.E.
(
You mentioned a second movie house in Fort Erie. Where was that?
Yes.
C.N.
Could you tell me something about this rhythm band?
(11)
�(
A.E.
Well, part of a curriculum in later years
•••
we taught rhythm work
to the children. And the music teacher helped me to get started. And
we started the rhythm band. And it included a drum and sticks, bells,
clappers, triangles and sometimes we used ghords. The dried seeds
help make a sound. And we practised sort of once a week. And then
at the end of the year when time was dragging for all classes we put
on a concert and invited the other classes to come and enjoy it. Now
the home and school made capes of blue and yellow material for my
class. And I made the little blue hats out of construction paper. And
it was very colourful. And we built up sort of a platform with tables
and chairs. And maybe took two or three days and invited the different
classes in to come in and enjoy them
•••
the rhythm band.
C.N.
The children look as though they took it quite seriously.
A.E.
Oh yes. They were all very serious about it. It was alot of work but
it was a lot
•••
It was worth it.
C.N.
Was the home and school active in those days?
A.E.
Yes, in those days we had a very good home and school association.
But then I don't know what happened. It just seemed to die out.
C.N.
What kinds of things did home and school do?
A.E.
Well, I think they had speakers, very good speakers, come in at every
meeting. And they would arrange
the things that they arranged too
•••
. .•
The teachers, that was one of
that you would be in your classroom
and parents could come in and interview you and see how their children
were doing. And any work or and help that they could do
•••
Well you
would explain what you would like to have them do. And quite often
they would have
. .•
I was trying to think
• .•
some kind of special, special
events. And I think they had pamphlets and they really co-operated
in every way they could.
C.N.
What were the community standards like when you were teaching?
A.E.
As far as I can say I think they were average.
C.N.
Were the standards in Fort Erie affected at all by prohibition or by
the war?
A.E.
I guess I don't know too much about that.
C.N.
As a teacher were you expected to live a certain sort of life. Were
you expected for example to go to church regularly.
(12)
�(
A.E.
I don't thing there was any restrictions on things like that. But when
I first started out teaching I know that a couple of teacher's on our staff
were accused of smoking when they were out somewhere and it wasn't
the teachers at all. It was somebody else that had kind of reddish hair
like hers.
C.N.
Are you saying that teachers were not supposed to smoke in public?
A.E.
No. Yes that's right. You wouldn't be seen going into a beer parlor.
C.N.
What other things were teacher's not allowed to do?
A.E.
Well, you were sort of looked up to in those days. And you were expected
to set a model for your children.
C.N.
Was this difficult?
A.E.
No. I don't think so because morally, I think, most of us were from good
backgrounds and respected the position that we held in town.
C.N.
Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
A.E.
I can't think of anything more.
(
(13)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History Transcripts
Subject
The topic of the resource
oral history, Fort Erie
Description
An account of the resource
Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fort Erie Public Library
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL- LH - Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Charlotte Nielsen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Augusta Everingham
Location
The location of the interview.
Miss Everingham's home at 216 High Street, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Everingham, Augusta
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Charlotte Everingham's interview. She discusses topics such as:
Business and industry
Ferries
Peace Bridge
World War I
Erie Beach
North End
South End
Recreation
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
April 23, 1985
1980s
1985
Erie Beach
ferries
Fort Erie
north end
Oral history
peace bridge
recreation
south end
transcripts
world war I
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/c7c5c8de42975f41d23c5a4122130a87.pdf
c78d5d21a0b62b75a495877dbd83bcd3
PDF Text
Text
This is N e il F l indall in the h o m e of M r . Percy Detenbeck , 545 Central A venue
Fort Erie, Ontario , t h is the 12th day of August 1985.
N.F:
Where w ere you born M r. Detenbeck ?
P.D:
I w as born in the Townsh ip of Bertie, three m iles w est of the Bertie
Boundary.
N.F:
How big was Bertie Township at the t i m e ?
P.D:
Well it took in R idgeway, S tevensville, C rystal Beach and then out
to the subway on the outsk irts o f F ort E r ie .
N.F:
Where exactly was it that you l ived ?
P.D:
I
lived on
Sunset D r iv e , that's
name then . . . it
was just a
the name of
it now , but it had no
side road . .I went to school at Number
.
Six, up on Ridgemount Road...and then after school
I
worked par t
time o n the farm...and then I got myself a job a t the a g e o f sevenÂ
teen on the Michigan Central Railroad at that time...and in 1930
I star ted 1928 . .and in 1930 the New York Central leased it for
.
ninety-nine years.
N.F:
For ninety-nine years?
P.D:
Yes they were supposed to...and I wo rked for the New York Central
up until the Penn Centr al took it over...then after that...why it
was only a few years I took my pension ... that was in 1974 . and
. .
I've been on pension since 1974 ...I get an American pension because
I worked for the New York Central...so I've been retired ever since . ..
do in g nothing b u t g ar den ing and
s uch
.
N.F:
Th e M ich igan Central had
P.D:
Yes , that's when I first started . . . it ran between Detroit and Buffalo
a
roundhouse in
For t Erie?
the M ich igan C entral . . . then the New York Central took it over
and it was between Chicago and New York . . . which we thought
we were going t o work for a big railroad and everything was going
to be real prosperous . . . and in 1930 they cut the staff just about
fifty percent.
N.F:
That was in 1930.
P.D:
And then the Depression came and I was laid off . . . worked s o m e
t i m e i n t h e w inter a n d t h e n i n the s u m m e r I'd be o u t of a j o b . . .
and n o une mploym ent i n those days e ither , in those days the last
(1)
�(
cheque was it . . . you had t o go out and find a j o b s o m e place w ith
a p ick and shovel. .. and then I started back in 1936 . . . and
I
cont inued
r ight on through . . . steady.
N.F:
Did you travel w ith the railroad or were you always in F ort Erie ?
P.D:
It was the Fort Erie yard was w h ere I worked . . . and then in 1960
they give us n ine days notice that they were going to close the
yard up.
N.F:
Se r iously, that is what they did ?
P.D:
Nine
had
days . . . that w as all they
g av e us
j o int seniority with M o ntr os e
I went
to
an d all these m e n.. . well w e
.
and Welland . . so I left
here and
Welland after that and I w o rk e d in Welland until I
took
m y pension.
N.F:
That wouldn't be very easy either travelling back and forth.
P.D:
No, it wasn't and I'm on pension now on my twelfthyear ..I travelled
.
back and forth... well I must have travelled back an forth at least
ten years or so before I took my pension.
(
N.F:
That is difficult.
P.D:
In the winter time especially.
N.F:
There is no direct route into Welland.
P.D:
Well now it is wo rse than it used to be when I first went up. ..at
the time they put the new canal through and I saw that right from
the time it started until it was finished and the boats came
then
they moved
our
yard from
t h e C ity of .Welland out five
t h ro ugh
miles
w est of Welland, o u t on the h igh w ay along the Welland R iver . . . and
that's where it is today ... and the
T.H.&B
it is a j o int the
and the Central, and s ince that t ime they've the C .
N.
T.H.&B
R . they went
C onrail first and now t h e C onrail has sold out to the C . P. and the
east end you work for the T . H .& B--C . P.--C . P . and if you are on
the west end the C.
N.
k ind of took the west end over ... so the west
end now they have the tunnel. . . we had the tunnel so the C .N . uses
the tunnel at the west end and the C . P. uses a bridge to N iagara
F alls on this end.
N.F:
You've seen a lot of changes then , from the t i m e you started.
(
(2)
,
�(
,
P .D:
Well I've seen lot s of changes espec ially in the boxcars . .. the cars,
the boxcars they were only forty-e igh t foot, for ty-tw o foot , now
you have got cars that an-over a hundred foot in length.
N.F:
That is huge, really huge.
P.D:
So there have been a lot of changes in m y day espec ially in e qu ip m e n t
w e had the o l d s t e a m engines . .. n o w t h e y a r e a l l dieselized .
N.F:
When d id that beg in ?
P .D:
Well I can' t say right off.
N.F:
Was it a really a fast change over or did it take a number of years ?
P .D:
Oh,
it
ch ang ed
over quite
fast . ..the
first trains that came
,
o ver
here in our yards here in Fort Erie was the Penn syl van ia and that
was the first diesel
I
saw... they used to come over and bring their
trains over and drop them off and take a train back .. .well then
a little while after that the New York Central came out with a
few diesels ... and as the diesels came out, why they would get rid
of a steam engine ...so we've had six or seven steam engines up here
standing stored for a long time... before they took them away to
(
scrap them.
N.F:
They scrapped them.
P.D:
During that time a lot of those brass bells that a man couldn't lift,
they were stolen off them... so when they left here the bells were
pretty well gone .. . I think they even took the bell off the one over
in the museum . ..that there was supposed to be stolen ...they would
be worth a lot of money of a fellow had them today.
N.F:
There must have been
to keep at the
P .D:
a
lot
of
me morabil ia that people didn't th ink
ti m e .
Yes and the old roundhouse up here . .. they tore it down, and all
the car shops . . . and another th ing that happened just before they
closed the yard . . . they bu ilt us a new yard office, and repaired the
car shops and fixed all the repair tracks up and everything . .. and
then a year or so after that they closed her u p and all those new
buil d ings, they tore th e m down.
N.F:
(
They s i m ply tore t h e m down.
P.D:
They just tore t h e m down . . . well they were wrecked in the first
(3)
�(
year that they were vacant.
N.F:
Did they have cattle pens up on the tracks?
P.D:
Yes w e had stock pens up . . . they were on the top of Jarvis Street
yes they sat r ight at the top of Jarvis Street, if a train got delayed
or something ... and the cattle had to be fed ... we had to have a stock
thing to run the cattle through , down to feed them . . . and the section
man w ould chase them back up again, roll them up�
N.F:
When you were in school what was there in the area for recreat ion ?
P.D:
We had no r ecreation at that t i m e . . . only what w e made ourselves;
w e ' d make a football field at the sch ool yard of our own, and then
put u p s t icks and then that's all w e would ever have, or m ake a
l ittle baseball d iamond . ..but w e had no recreat ion at that
and the school
time . .
I went to out there on Ridgemount Road was
a
.
stone
school. .. and I can still remember the wooden emblem on the front
1865 when it was built...out of stone, and all we had fo r heat was
a g reat big box stove...and a woodshed in back of the school, and
we'd, each one would have to take turns car rying this three foot
(
s quar e block of wood in, to keep wood on the stove... to try to keep
her warm ... and the school was so drafty, there were lots of times
that we had to come home, you just couldn't keep her hot.
N.F:
I'll bet, winters were mor e severe then weren't they?
P.D:
Oh, yes, and then an outhouse way on the outside .. you had to
.
about f ive h undred yards to get to it
in
walk
i n the winter time... a ladies
one corner of the school yard and the man's on the oth e r corner,
and then walk ing back and forth to school a whole m ile ... we didn't
have any busses . . . we'd walk in snow right up to our bell ies . .. hoof
h e r back and forth to school everyday .
N.F:
It couldn't have been very easy .
P.D:
No, not l ike they have got it today . . . you had so many chores to
do in the morning before you went to school . . . and then when you
came h o m e from school you had chores to do at nighc;and no
television to s it u p and watch either . . . in later years w e wound up .. ;
well I used to start build ing crystal set radios . . . and then that was
(
(4)
�something
then it went from crystal set, why we'd build a one
••.
tube, that was really something.
N.F:
I bet it was yes.
P.Il
And sit up half the night and see how many stations you could log.
N.F:
That would be very interesting.
P.D:
It was sure different then and now.
N.F:
Was it a one room school house!
P.D:
One room
••.
all the whole classes right from premier class right
on up to your senior second and then you went and passed your entrance
to Fort Erie here to high school...you came down here when you
passed your entrance.
N.F:
How did you ever manage to get to high school in Fort Erie?
P.D:
Well t hat was t he only place t hat you could go you see, t hat was
t he arrangement .
N.F:
Just no choice about it .
P.D:
No, when you got t hrough t here, you went down to try your ... t hey
called it an entrance, and t here was no grades in t hem days ... t here
(
was ... you went to premier school, junior first, junior second, senior
second, junior fourt h, senior fourt h and t hen t hat was your end ...
that was as far as you went int o t hat , t hen you go t o high school
aft er t hat in Fort Erie which..
.
I went out and got a job for.
N.F:
Most people did.
P.D:
I didn't bother going no further...after t hat you had to self-educat e
yourself .
N.F:
Which is not such a bad idea.
P.D:
Yes, you got self-educated...and that you don't ever forget...selfÂ
education.
N.F:
Because if you don't do it right the first time, you automatically
do it right after, do it until it is right, when did you first move
into Fort Erie?
P.D:
Oh, well I moved in as soon as
about eighteen when I came down
•••
and I boarded
different places and I'd go back and forth
had a car, to ride back and forth
I always
.•.
I'd stay down a week or so
•••
was in and out of town all the time
I
•••
my father he worked for the
.••
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C. N. all his life
••.
and he used to run the farm and always worked
nights on the railroad, and worked the farm in the daytime
.•.
but
h e always commuted back and forth in a horse and buggy first,
and a horse and cutter...and then after he got the cars, why he
used cars.. .I could always go back and forth when I was working,
but then I came and let's see I was about thirty some years old before
I got married...but I didn't figure on getting married, and my wife
came from out west they brought her here to the Fleet Aircraft
during the war, and that's how I got married...she never went back
west...and we've done pretty good since, real good...since I took
my pension now we, we get along pretty well, making more money
now t han
I ever did while I was working.
N.F:
I can well imagine, yes.
P.D:
And
I st ill pay a lot of income t ax ...when I first worked on t he railÂ
road whatever
I made I got the whole full cheque, no deduct ions ...
no income t ax or anything t aken out ...t hat didn't st art unt il about
1935, when t hey st art ed t aking income t ax out ...t hen I didn't know
(
much about income t ax and t he boss come to me and t old me get
t hose income t ax papers filled out or we'll, you'll be garinsheed,
and you'll lo se your job.
N.F:
Well t hat 's one way to convince you.
P.D:
So I got a hold of a local lawyer Teddy Tyrill, used to be here in
t hem days, got him to fill it out, but he made a mistake so
I got
money back instead of more than I had to pay in, he made an error
so
••.
nobody knew too much about it in those days... and then they
started taking out hospitilization and all that stuff like that, and
they never...oh, it was quite a while later that it was before they
started taking income tax out of your cheque...we had to pay the
whole thing at the end of the year...and that's what make it tough
for us too.
N.F:
Would it ever, yes.
P.D:
Yes when I started, it was for
that time was getting about
56¢
30¢
an hour, and Horton Steel at
or
35¢ . . . so
(
(6)
I figured that I had
�a real good pay ing jo b .
N.F:
It is hard now to th ink about wages like that .
R.R:
Yes now the wages that you get today one hundred and twenty-five
or one hundred and th irty-five dollars a day, just an ord inary sw itchÂ
man.
N.F:
That's w ithout be ing on the roa d .
R.R:
It's a good pens ion plan , I get a very good pension . . . ou r pension
started in 1937 P res ident R oosevelt put ours th rough , it's an A m e r ican
pers ion, and w e got, well our pens ion was real good then acco r d ing
to the C . N . and the C . N . is real good now too, then the only th ing
about the C . N. l ike our A me r ican pens ion your w ife gets half of
what you get . . . b e t w e e n the t w o of us you see, we get A m e rican
pens ion now is d iscou n t e d and w e have to pay inco m e tax on that
too, and that is thirty-six, th irty-seven percent or it ' s been close
to fo rty ce nts on the dollar. .. but w e pay inco me tax on that , of
cou r s e you can gain a little bit th ough .
(
N.F:
They'll take that l ittle b it away as fast as they can too .
R.R:
O h , yes j u s t as fas t .
N.F:
W hen you first s t a r t e d work ing a t t h e railroad d id they have a lot
of people work ing there ?
R.R:
Oh it was b ig and it w a s a very busy yar d , me n , there w e re all k inds
. of m e n u n t il t h e b ig layoff in 1930 . . . that's when the N e w Y or k C entral
took it ove r , and the D epression hit at t h e sa me t ime . . . so
I
worked
even in the . . . W indsor s o m e times when men were going on vacation,
in the s u m m e r . . . and
I
was lucky enough to get a job at the E r ie
Downs Golf C ou rse . . . ! drove the t ractor up there, d id that for a
w h ile .
N.F:
C o m ing f r o m a far m that would be second natu re.
R.R:
A n d then, m aybe in the w inter t i m e and th ings got tough then I
m ight be called back on the railroad for the w inter . . . and just in
the s p r ing when the t rucks started t o run again I'd get laid off,
that's the way I had to start . . . for the first five or s ix years . . . t ill
1936 and then it got steady and I worked right on through .
(
(7)
�(
N.F:
That is a long t i m e .
P.D:
F orty-seven y e a r s , s a m e job.
N.F:
What were you doing ?
P.D:
I was a car inspector .
N.F:
That's the first job you started w ith so I guess you do know qu ite
a few of the changes in the cars, and equipment.
P.D:
Well I was off s ick in there for , and I was laid off, and I took a tu rn
as a sw itch m an and then I got laid off again and car ins pector was
a more secure job, m uch more secure in our depa r t m ent so . . . well
I had a chance to
i t was going
weeks
go
fir ing o r an yth ing but I wanted to be where
to be steady ,
and then you'd
be
because
the m
jobs
laid off a while s o
y ou
o n ly
in 1936,
work a few
you
had to have
a lot o f seniority to have a job then, s o I got one there and then
I was all set.
N.F:
That worked out well.
P.D:
So it worked out quite well for me
I
never ever killed myself. ..
and t he railr oad was a pleasu re in those days, it really was, and
(
you couldn't wait to go to work ... not today.
N.F:
You don't hear many people say that.
P.D:
You used to have more fun at work than you
d id
when you were
home.
you use to have a baseball team or any teams?
N.F:
Did
P.D:
No, they had a h oc k e y team for a
wh ile but not a ball t e a m . . . we
had a hockey team after they built the arena up here . . . and one of
the fello w s , I'll tell you how lax w e used to be on the railroa d , th is
guy is dead now so I can ment ion th is ... ! was a U n ion R epresentat ive ,
for twenty-five years and I travelled all over the U n ited States . . .
California, Texas and in Canada too, B . R . C . of A . Brotherhood of
R a ilway C ar m en of A me r ica, I represented that for t w enty-five
years, so that was another th ing I'd be on these conventions at Kansas
C ity or anyplac e , Montreal, and we were getting seventy-five dollars
or e ighty dollars a day when they were getting about fifteen dollars
a day for working home here, the w ife and I , she always t ravelled
(
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w ith me . . . we had the best of hotels and everyth ing ... oh, that was
really good . . .I made pretty near as much money in the union as
I d id working, and s o m e days well more, because I had to go to Detriot
to the Joint P rotec t ive Boards they called it, about every month ,
and that would take three days to go up there and back.:. and w e
g o t paid f o r travell ing time, same a s we do at t h e convent ion, and
w e'd go from here to Kansas C it y , I'd put three days to go to Kansas
C ity and three days to come back, six days there, just travell ing
and you'd get on the train here and it was always
on the tra in,
you'd
you'd
b e in Kansas
get
on at
free
t r an sport a t io n
ten at night and the next afte rnoon
C ity, but I'd
put in three
d a y s ... five
days
to California, each way, Longbeach was our last convention
going
in
C a l if o r n i a
you figure five days going and five days com ing back, .. that was
interesting too ...okay I was referring to this guy; he was working
four-to-twelve and he com e to me and told me the boss won't let
m e off, what are you going to do about it, so I explained that I couldn't
(
do nothing because we didn't have no m en, and he ar gue d and argued,
and he went to wor k t hat afternoon, for o'clock for the four
- to - twelve,
but in the m eanti m e when the things were all cleared up, without
per m ission or telling anybody he goes up and plays hockey, he was
a hockey player because he come from Elk Lake, up nor th, an d
t hey
he
were
really hockey fans, so he we n t u p
broke his
ankle ... well he
came
pla y in g h ockey and
back to work and h e called me
u p on the phone and h e said "I want you to c o m e up t o work'\ so
I went u p and he's got a broken ankle, he's got a rag wrapped around
it and h e wants to know how he can say how he has done it on the
j o b . . .I said that it's i m poss ible, because all the people u p there at
the arena saw you do it, how can you explain that .. :so he got fired.::an d
.
i t took m e about s ix m onths before I g o t him back . . I got him back�;J
got him back w ith h is full senio r ity but no back pay or anyth ing:
N.F:
That's amazing.
P.D:
How it happened . . .I went w ith the General C hair man t o Detroit,
o r rather the G eneral M anager was in Detroit, so the General
(
(9)
�-�
(
....
,.. ,,. .. -.�
Chairman was going to take h is pens ion at the end of the month
and so was the G e neral Manager ... so our General Chairman says
"what do you say , your tak ing your pens ion at the end of the month
and I'm taking m ine, what do you say w e put th is m an back to work
and we can leave a clean slate", so the G ene ral M anager okayed
it and that's how we got him bac k .
N.F:
Isn't t h a t great.
P.D:
Well I came back that n ight and he lived over here on Jar v is S t reet
in an apa r t m ent upstairs, so I went over and told him be ready to
be back at work anyt i m e
your
r ea dy
.
N.F:
Oh , I bet he w as happy .
P.D:
Yes,
N.F:
Jobs have never been that easy to find in this town.
P.D:
No not at all, but at one time the railroad was the only thing in
a
young fellow with a wife and family.
this town... the re was nothing much else ... that paid good money...
like t he Horton Steel was thi r t y-five cents an hour for years ...and
(
the Fleet started up but they didn't have too many men years ago.
N.F:
It didn't start off lar ge did it?
P.D:
No, no not unt il the war time, that's when t he Fleet really started
up, but before that Jack Sanderson and a gir l by the name of Emma
Sto rm was his secr etary, and that was all plus a few men ... so that's
all that consisted of...so the railroad was the only thing, and it
used to be always busy because
if
you
didn't like work ing on the
New York C entral, why you would j ust quit and go over the next
morning and work for C. N . or the C . N . would qu it and they would
come over here and work for the M ich igan C entral, and that's just
about how easy it w as in them days ... yes I started off w it h the first
old car I got was an old Modet T and I d rove it back and forth t o
work.
N.F:
What were the roads like ?
P.D:
Well they w e r e mostly o r d inarily s tone roads , and then they would
put oil down on the m .. . in the w inter t i m e it was bad , well j ust hook
up the h o rse and cutter slide the shafts over on one s ide so the
(
(10)
�pathway would be where the cutter marks run and you could see
the horse could run u p that . . . they would slide the shaft sideways,
<t-·- --1
and the cutter would stay in the two marks and you were com ing
back the same way.
N.F:
That m akes a lot of se nse.
P.D:
Yes well that is the way that they used to do it in them days .. . and
if you wanted a doctor l ike there was babies to be born o r anything
l ike that you called S tevensville , there was a doctor in S tevensville
and one in R idgeway, Doctor Buell in S tevensville , S tackhouse in
R idgeway and Doctor Douglas down here in the south end, and Doc
M enck , and they were the fou r old doctors, and say you w ife was
going t o have her baby or s o m e t h ing you would call them up the
day before ... s o he w ould hook u p h is horse and c u tter, and y ou w o u l d
horse back o u t to m e e t h i m if the weather was b a d a n d the roads
w e r e bad, b r ing h i m in and put h is horse away and everyth ing and
h e ' d s t ay ove r n igh t .
N.F:
(
Really , that is w h at they would do.
P.D:
The baby was bor n r ight in the h o m e , no hospitals , and then they
had t o s t ay in b e d it w as nine days , before they could even g e t out
of bed in those days.
N.F:
N ine days .
P.D:
N ine days and r ig h t in bed .. .I was jus t up t o the h o s p ital here a
c ouple of weeks ago w ith a cold here . . . and there was a young girl
had
a
baby there . .. and the next day she was up and walk ing aroun d ,
it w a s the s a m e w ay w ith an operation, my father h a d h is appendix
out in Buffalo and h e was a month before he was ever allowed to
get u p out of bed, just last year I had my gallbladder out and I was
seventy-four years old at the time I had my gallbladder out . . . and
they had me u p . . I had it out at e ight in the morning and they had
.
me u p and walking around at four o'clock in the afternoon . . . and
three days aft e r that they sent m e home w ith a bunch of tubes tape d
on my stomac h , a n d he told m e to c o m e back i n t e n days and
I'll look you over . . . so in ten days I went back and he pulled out
(11)
�(
the tubes and t h e s t itches . . . never touched it after, it was a perfe ct
job and I can eat anyth ing I want . . . that's someth ing . . . and that w as
a serious operatio n years :ago.
N.F:
Well it must have been a life threatening operat ion.
P.D:
Yes oh yes, even pne u m on ia o r b r onch itis were real bad . . . and then
if an old person , they broke any bones pneu monia w ould set in and
that is what they would d ie of is pneu monia, not from a break.
N.F:
Times really have changed that wa y .
P.D:
Y es, so that is about i t .
N.F:
How b ig w as the h o s p ital when it w a s first opene d ?
P.D:
Well it was j u s t about maybe half the s ize that it is now, that front
part w a s all o r iginal, t h e new part in the back and t h e e mergency
areas , they are t h e only parts that were put on . . . t h e front part
is all t h e old part of the h o s p ital.
N.F:
C o m ing from a far m d i d y ou ever g o to t h e B e r t ie F air ?
P.D:
All t h e t i m e , oh that w a s s o m e t h ing w e w ould never m is s . . . that
was a good day, a day when the sch ools w ould close and e v e r y t h ing
(
and w e used to have foot races up on the racetrack . . . they h a d this
up at t h e racetrack y ou k no w , they had foot races a n d all k inds
of shows and y ou1 .w ould take some of your farm produce d o w n there
for p r ize s .
N.F:
I t w as an agr icultural a n d s o c ial event as w ell ?
P .D:
Oh sur e , it used t o last a bout t h r e e days , then the fire men they ' d
have dances at nigh t , they'd run t h e dances t h e fire depart ment
would, and w e ' d dance under the g r andstand, that is when Maddigan
had it.
N.F:
It was a p r ivate enterp r ise at that t i m e ?
P.D:
Yes it was in those days . . . used to be a bush there where all the
barns are . . . and h e had g a m e hens all chicken coops through the
bush . . . and h e put a shotgun in h is buggy and he'd d r ive back t hrough
t o check h is chicken coops everyday . . . w ith a shotgun.
N.F:
Y es, no fooling a r ound .
P.D:
He'd see if anybody would steal ch ickens, and h e l ived way ove r
(12)
�(
on the c orner of what was it , C oncession and B e r t ie . . . way back
in the corner where thay pile the m anure and the g r ound stuff
that is w h e re h is h ouse was, h e had a cock pit in there where he
used t o collect and cockle the birds . . . my father worked on the
thrashing machine in them days and he used to thrash h is grain,
he w ent as far as Texas figh t ing cocks . . . he was outlawed around
here so h e w ould go down there because it was lawful down there
and h e had certain chauffers d r ive h i m down . . . different guys.
P .D:
I can i m agine it w ould have been an interest ing t r ip .
N.F:
Yes in those days they wouldn't have the h ighways .. . w ell my brother
has been down there for over thirty years .. . he left R idgeway and
s old h is bus iness w h en he ca me out of the air force and he moved
to Texas, and he made himself a fortu ne d o w n t h e r e, h e is w o r t h
over a m il l io n dolla r s in p r o p e r t y .. . he never had t o o m uch wh e n
he w e n t d o w n b u t he borrowed a l l the money f r om t h e banks dow n
t h e r e , it's easy t o bor row money f r o m the banks dow n t here, t h e r e
(
is a boa r d , a n d you s t e p in front of t h is b o a r d a n d t h ey l o a n you
ten thousand and you make good so the next t ime you get fifty
thousand dolla r s and that's how he built h i mself on other people's
money . . . well he w a s d o w n selling a irplanes for Flee t after, and
h e just got scout ing around t o see where was a good place t o s e ttle
s o Houston was really prosper ing, so w ith all the m o n ey h e had
h e bought property outs ide of the city . . . then he started t o build
apa r t ments and what they call warehouses down there, and I call
them fact o r ies but he used to build a warehouse, just w ith angle
iron, put on t in and s p ray it w ith a foa m su bstance on the ins ide
to keep the heat and the cold out, and then maybe he would make
fou r ... four l ittle factories there, just enough to start u p a l ittle
bus iness of some k in d , if you were in the plu m b ing bus iness you'd
have a little plu m b ing shop on one corner and on a nother corner
som eth ing else . . . h e used t o build them and rent them out . . . and then
t h e c it y built right out to him . . . that's where he m ade h is money . . . he
owns property in F reeport Texas, Marble F alls and on L y ndon Johnson
(
(13)
�(
Lake , and h e had got a daugh ter a son-in-la w in Dallas, a doct o r,
he bu ilt h i m a b ig clinic and then h e lives in Houston, r ight on the
outskirts of Houston.
N.F:
He made quite the dec is ion when he left d idn't he.
P.D:
Well h e had a lot o f ne rve, but m y father he neve r would ever ...
he never did have the nerve to do anyth ing , he wouldn't gam ble
on noth ing ... and I was just about the same way I could only be fooled
.
thirty-five years ago when I moved here . .! could have owned th is
whole corner here from M ark S m ith , he used to be a r ich bachelor
in F ort E r ie and h e owned all the m stores on Jar v is Street, and
h e owned all th is property ... and he wanted to sell it to m e w ith
noth ing down, it w as all rented, e ve ryth ing was rente d , yes
I
would
have been living h e r e . . . so noth ing down I coul d have made the payments,
I coul d have been a millionaire h e r e .. . th is whole cor ne r and then
h e offered me some place s in the south end there on Forsyth and
Waterloo, there are apertment houses on that s id e , no apartme n t
houses in front and t h e n a h ouse in t h e back . . . and h e offered i t
(
to m e f o r eleven thousand dollars , with noth ing down, a n d a l l r e n t e d ,
because he started to go t o Flo rida at t h a t t ime e v e r y w inter a n d
h e d id n't want the t r o u ble w ith o w n ing them . . . all h e want e d was
the interest coming in ... he d idn't care how much pricipal you paid
as long as that int e r e s t was coming in and it was paid u p and t h is
Jamie , that's Ja m ie's F oodland, well h is fath e r ca m e along and
paid fifteen thousand dollars fo r those apart m ents about three weeks
after he offered the m to m e and I could have sold it to him . . . so
I lost four thousand dollars r ight there in a matter of w eeks.
N.F:
A t one t i m e F ort E r ie was a bootlegging centre.
P.D:
Oh yes. they had both , bootlegging and rum running all along t h e
way from C osy Dell c l e a r down here to these docks, yes t h e y used
to load boats so they could take them to Cuba, oh yes and st raight
over to Buffalo.
N.F:
That's a very fast t r ip . .
P..D:
They s mu ggled C h inamen over and everyth ing.
(14)
�(
N.F:
When would that have been that they moved the C h inese, was that
before the rum running ?
P .D:
Well these were pretty well all going on around the same t ime.
N.F:
It was around the s a m e t i m e ?
P.D:
Yes , I don't know if it is to be believed o r not but from what I hear . ..
they tell m e they used to put the m in burlap bags t o take t h e m
over by boat , and then if the C oast Guard or anyone should c o m e
along . . . t h e y w o u l d j u s t du m p the m i n the r iver . . . just let the m go ...
then they used to have this . .. where the school is down here at the
.
sh ipyar d , the m a r ina is . .I never s a w it but they claim that they
have tunnels right unde rneath t o g o into that building . . . ! heard about
it but I never d id g e t to see it .
N.F:
That w ould have bee n the B il t m o r e C lub at that t i m e ?
P.D:
N o , it was s o m e k ind of a hotel, B il t m o r e certainly sounds l ike it ,
s o m e k ind of a c lu b , and then t h e y ' d tell m e that this place of F rank
P a t t ison, had tunnels , reme m b e r these k ids here a few years ago ,
d iscovered t h e open ing f o r a tunnel i n there . . . w e l l t h a t i s w h e r e
(
t h e y u s e d to store these C h ina m e n . . . and then t h e y w ould t a k e the m
out and b e off w it h t h e m.
N.F:
It w ouldn't be not iceable at all, so bootlegging w as popular ?
P.D:
All over town .. . espec ially in the w e s t end, up around H o r t on S t e el
there . . . pretty near e v e r y one of t h e m s ide streets was a bootlegger
one right after the o t h e r , on both s ides . . . w e w e r e just talking the
other day , Fish Thom pson is gone I guess, that seems to have cleaned
up all the bootleggers around here , in this part of Fort E r ie .
N.F:
For Fort E r ie itself it may have.
P.D:
Where was I up in the R idgeway Leg ion the other day and a girl
was saying yes there are bootlegger s around yet, because I know
three in C rystal Beach ... well that's just normal because that's a
su m me r resort ... s o m e th ings never change in C rystal Beach, that's
where they put the welfare in the w inter t ime.
N.F:
Did you go t o E r ie B e ach ?
P.D:
Oh , yes . .. that w as , mother used to hook up the horse and buggy
(15)
�(
and she had s o m e friends that were in the ice business out there
where w e used to t ie u p the horse, and then we'd walk from there
down the lake . . . a b ig w ide c e ment walk, and w alk all down through
the park . . . the b ig Dance Hall, they tore that down, but it used to
be a natu ral beac h , just a beaut iful beac h , and everyth ing w as
really natural then and p icnics . . . that is where we used to have all
the p icnics, l ike any women's outfit wanted a picnic why they used
to have their picnics there on a S unday or any day .
N.F:
I t m ust have been busy.
P .D:
O h , yes sure it w a s , well that was a real place ... they had the train
.
running from t h e F er ry B oat out to the.. F erry boat run ning to E r ie
Beach , and they h a d t h e boat g o ing over . . . and that was just f ifty
cents ... she and I used to r ide over and back just for the boat r ide ,
we never g o t off on the other s id e .
N.F:
P.D:
(
W e r e t h e r e m any bus inesses i n F or t E r ie ?
Oh yes, t h is here J a r v is S t reet was the m a in place in t h i s , the no rth
e n d.
N.F:
I t has always been l ike that ?
P.D:
Yes , J a r v is S t reet w as t h e m ai n t h ing, but there w e r e quite a few
cloth ing stores and th ings . . . you could buy anyth ing . . . today you can't
buy nothing h e r e , when they got down t o hav ing two b ig stores Loblaws
and t h e A&P , later on and that' s n o t too long ago, but then t h e
mall was built and then t h o s e p l a c e s d isappeare d , t h e LG . A. was
the next biggest one to c ome in, has to do okay it's the only store
left to buy anything in, and Brun tons they started down on Jarvis
S treet . . . ! suppose most of them are doing fair but now they have
got these b ig stores up in R idgeway and I th ink that they w ill hurt
someone .. . ! don't know why they would put two b ig stores like that
into one s mall area, and so close together . .. yes w e had three drug
stores here at this end at one time on Jarvis Street . . . now we are
lucky to have one, we d idn't have none for quite a wh ile.
N.F:
What were the drug stores ?
P.D:
There w as C ornell w as here . .. and C a m m was down below ... and in
(
(16)
�the m iddle one was Lons berry . . . three drug stores right the othe r
side of Jarvis S t reet, but then we didn't have anything for quit e
a wh ile until the I D A ca me in , well that's about all I know.
N.F:
Everyth ing helps , everyth ing adds g reatly, when did they take the
roundhouse down, from the M ich igan C entral Yard?
P.D:
Oh they tore that down . . . 1960 is when the yard closed, and then
they had one engine working here ... and I worked h e re for th ree
years after that, I worked till 1963, C la r ence Benne r and I.. .he
just died, he used to live over here on Jarvis Street .. �he and I worke d
alone u p here for about three yea rs after ... then that's when I went
to Welland and he took h is pens ion . .. a n d then they tore the rou ndhouse
dow n r i g h t a w a y, they t o r e every thing down.
N.F:
There is noth ing left there now at all?
P.D:
Noth ing, noth ing but we eds and the snow, I don't know if the snow
is gone t h e r e now o r not but there was some left there not too long
ago . . . the town backs rig h t up at the end of Jarvis Stre et and dumps
all t h e snow, oh h ell they dump it back way up h igh, it
(
it stays t h e r e .. . well t h ere is
a
s t ay s
cold ...
lot of snow there in June, lots of
t im e s .
N.F:
Th a t is diffe rent t oo.
P.D:
But th e G ra h am M a nufactur ing C ompa ny, t h a t is whe r e t h e r oun dh o u s e
was .
N.F:
It must have been a big phy s ica l structure .
P.D:
Oh it was hug e , it used t o hold abou t twelve o r th irteen steam engines
and then they had the tu rn table you see� .. it could turn th e m and
run them into any stall you w ished .. :well it went from Phipps S t reet
pretty near over t o Jarvis S treet, it's shape went around like that,
like a g reat big half moon.
N.F:
That is huge.
P.D:
It held a lot of engines .. . and there were a lot of men work ing there
and then those steam engines they had cinder p its�;�they were;-. .
they would run the engine over these pits and then use a shaker
bar and they would shake all the cinders out of the engines . ..
(
(17)
�'
·-�
(
and they would have t o shovel them out . .. and then towards the
end they had a . . . they could hump the engines and they and bucket s ,
w ith an elevator for them to go on, more automatic instead of doing
it by hand . .. that's when they started to do away w ith the men.. . then
they had to have men in the coal docks too, they worked there load ing
and such . . . but the coal docks weren't used for long aft e r that . . . it
led to a lot of unem ploy m ent.
N.F:
F o r t Erie has grow up qu ite a bit , and grown out from what it was?
P.D:
F ort E r ie never s e e m e d to populate too m u ch though , it went along
back in the old days there was th is fu r n itu r e store and old man
A t w ood owned it , he and th e m , they w e r e all the reeves and c oun c il m en
and the m ayor . . . and they never wanted nothing to come in . . . they
j u st w a nted the i r l ittle old tow n that th ey could r u n by th e m selves . . .
a n d t h e y w oul dn't allow an ything else i n h ere ... and that i s w h y it
d idn't build up.
N.F:
(
That is a sh a m e .
P.D:
A n d w h e n th e F le et c o m e in . . . well, that helped a lot a n d see durin g
th e war ti m e they brought in so many outsiders lik e form Que bec,
a n d all out th r ou gh th e w este rn provinces ... j u st th e s a m e a s my
w ife c a m e . . . well that is a lot of w h at helped populate F ort E rie .
N.F:
I s u p pose that a lot stayed afte rwar ds, yes .
P.D:
A lot of th e m afte r the war was ove r th ey l i k e d it here bette r th an
out in the w e s t s o m e plac e , or whereve r they had c o m e from . . . so
a lot of the m stayed h e r e . . . outs ide of that the populat ion would
never have e x panded.
N.F:
Was the a m alga m a t ion itself a popular idea ?
P.D:
Oh yes, well it started off in three sect ions . . Jike there was . . . they
took B ridgeburg away and they made it F ort Erie North . . . and they
called the other end, the original F ort E r ie , that was F ort E r ie
South ... and where A magari was they called it Fort E r ie West .. .
that is how it started ...and then eventually we all, named it all
Fort E r ie ... just l ike they merged it all the same way as they d id
when they brought in Reg ional Government. . . yes see all of a sudden
(
(18)
�(
here we are these three places and they are all merged together
l ike that .
N.F:
Wh en you were young a n d l iving out on Sunset, what is now S unset
would you have gone to S t evensville for any of your shoppi9g or
would you have c o m e into F ort Erie?
P.D:
Oh well at that t i m e th ere was the only pl �ce you could go to get
any feed was the feed m ill, and there was only one in Stevensville
and R idgeway, if you wanted to get anyth ing, say you r grain ground
up or anyth ing there w as noth ing in F o rt Erie so you went eith er
to S t eve ns v ille o r
R id g e way ;;
Stevensville an d our
. then there was hotels h a lfw ay between
p la ce: .. there
was one out here on R id gem o un t
Road, that used to be a hotel..:and
of
course
that was
the horse
and buggy days, why they c�Ued t hem half-way houses::. when the
far m ers would come home, there was a hotel in Stevensville
and
when they come hom e by the time an hour or so had passed they
would be at this half-way house, and they would stop over there
(
... and
then they could continue on hom e : .. if they come from Ridgeway,
there was another one up wher e I think
t hey
called that Stonemill
Road now, that used to be Windmill Point but t h e y call it Stonemill
Road now, and there was one up here right near the Dominion, the
corner of Do minion and Windmill, no w that was a half-way house,
there and then you
could
I'd hea r d that ter m before and I never knew exactly what t hey
were
if you come from Ridgeway you could stop
come on home.
N.F:
referring to.
P.D:
These people would have farms, and do their far ming too::. and they
would run their l ittle saloon, but you see they weren't crowde d
like they a r e today, they h a d t h e o l d spittoons; and liquor used to
be maybe ten cents a.:-: maybe two ounces for a dime:::nickel beers,
that's how the old t i m ers has their fun; they had fun out of it.;:
they had a lot of fun:;:and my mother when she wanted to go shopping
she went to F ort Erie, and she gathered up her eggs; and her butter,
which she w ould make in a roll; she had these wooden pound things,
(19)
�(
she could make it u p in pounds ... she would make some up in pounds
but that was just for a few odd customers she had, and the ones
that she took into the store , would be a round roll, these she would
take her wooden ladle and m ark the m , you know , make them look
good, then she would wrap it, or those, up into t issue paper and
one week or so she would come down Bowen Road, now it wasn't
under the subway, that subway was not built in those days... you
had to go slant ing across the tracks there out at, out at P e t it Road ...
where the U n ion C entre is , where M iller's Auto W reckers is ... there
is where you kept bear ing to the left, and that went r ight s t raigh t
d o w n and clea r ing across all those railroad tracks . . . u n t il you hit
beh in d t h e R io Vist a Golf C ourse, and that is where you would c o m e
d o w n i s right there, t h a t w a s t h e B o w e n R oad, a n d t h a t w a s the
only was that you could get into t o w n . . . on t h is side . . . then there
was a store u p here on Central A venue, Hanses S tore they calle d
it, t w o brothers they h a d it , and m y m o t h e r would take h e r but t e r
(
in t h e r e and h e r e g g s and s t u f f and she would get her groce ries,
and then they would w e igh u p the bu t t e r and stuff . . . well m aybe
t h is w e ek she m ight o w e f ifty cents or a dollar . . . well that would
be on the book . . . you never paid it, no cash handled . . . and the next
time she w ould c o m e d o w n and come around the other way on t h e
Gil m o r e R o a d , b y the F le e t there . . . and M alcol m 's S tore was over
t h ere, h e was a j u dge at one t ime, Judge M alcolm r ight across from
t h e Grand Trunk Hot e l now, o n t h e corner h e had a store, it has
b urned down now . .. and she would do the same thing there take in
her butter and her eggs and stuff ... and there would be a bill there
maybe when she got all through he would owe her a dollar, well
then they would let that go for the next week . . . and that is how
she worked both of these stores ... and then she had d ifferent houses
w h ere they m ight just w ant a pound or t w o or a dozen eggs , and
then she used to drop t h e m off at the house for the m .. . and I can
just r e m e m ber when I w as young maybe she would buy me a candy
and a pack of gum, that was a lot back then ... it was a lot d ifferent
(20)
�(
then, than it is now .
N.F:
Yes that is for sure.
P.D:
Oh yes, and then w e had the trip . . . to Crystal Beach . .. we always
went to Crystal Beach on F armer's P icnic . . . they always had a farmer's
picnic for the far m ing boys, so we would got a day out of school
for that . . . all us country ones . . . and we would all go u p to Crystal
Beach for t h e F arm er's P icnic, and you got cut rate prices on some
of the things and then you would meet these g irls fro m Buffalo
these A m ericans would come over here and they used to n ickname
us farmer boys, they used to k i d us about be ing farmer boys.. . and
then when w e could see them they used to have long dresses, well
they would kind of s h o r t e n their dresses, and they had what they
would call j azz g arte r s, and they wore the m below t h e ir knee . ..
they were a s ilk garter about two inches w ide and they would put
th e m on and boy we c o u l d see them these j azz garters and you really
thought you were look ing at s o m e t h ing ... we never r e m e mbe r too
much o f t h a t , any m o r e
(
the o t h e r d a y and
I
I
w as looking at an old class picture j u s t
realized t h a t pretty n e a r a l l of t h e m are dead
now, o f all t h e ones I w e n t to school w it h , s o m any of them are
dead.
N.F:
W hen you first m o v e d h e r e to C entral A v e n u e , who were y o u r n e ighbo u r s ?
P.D:
Oh ,
N.F:
Th is would have alw ay s been c o m m e rc ial then.
P.D:
Yes th is was always in the business section, the c o m m ercial d istrict
I
never had no n e ighbours here.
here . . . see t h is here building at one time was owned by John D . James
he owned where the C re d it Union is here , well that was h is general
store , that is where my mother used to c o m e shopping too, he had
a ge neral store here , and behind here where m y garde n is , well
that w as h is lu m ber m il l , he had a l ittle lum ber m ill there and this
was h is barn . . . so then after that the Ziff brothers come here, you
know Louis Ziff, they came here and they built it up a little b it
and they had a gas pu m p out front , one of those round c ircular ones,
that was right off the front here . . . well they d idn't run it very long
(21)
�(
and R oss S m it h bought it and he r e m odelled it and he m ade an apart m ent
upstairs, and this level h e fixed u p for the Junio r Chambe r . . . the
J u n io r Chamber had th is for, well they had it when I came here,
and they had it about a year after I came here, and they rented
it off from me until they got that golf cou rse u p there . . . so they
bu ilt a lit tle buil d ing of their own up there, a clubhouse like and
they left here . . . and after they left here I just put a few par t i t ions
in here for storage like I've got now some on the other side here
and I've got a pool table , and I've got a collect ion of hats here . . .
well once in a wh ile s o m e one moves away and b r ings m e another
hat . . . s o I don't know if w e get any older the guy next door that
bought F ickels why he is talk ing abo u t buy ing th is . . . so I don't know ,
I don' t lik e the thought of mov ing into an apa r t m e n t , i know I ' d
b e los t , I ' ve g o t a workshop h e r e a n d I garden a n d I t h r o w snow
around , sit u n d e r that big maple tree, it may be an old shack but
I th ink we would be los t .
N.F:
(
I bet you would be .
P .D:
A n apa r t ment is j u s t a place to live . . . the way I've got it f ig u r e d
every t i m e I got my vacat ion I w e n t t o T e x a s to see m y brother
and m y other brother is in F lo r ida, they stay there for s ix months,
and I can go e ither place and that is what an apart m ent would be
good for, you wouldn't have to look after a house, the sa m e way
that w e do now , wor rying abou t fre ezing pipes and whatnot , I could
just lock h e r u p and not have t o worry . . . we jus t came back from
W innipeg, we went out t o see the w ife's. sister she is s ic k , and I
j u s t d rove my car out there and back .
N.F:
You have been happy w i t h F or t E r ie then ?
P.D:
Oh yes , well I'd have t o be that's the only place that I ever worked,
well everyth ing was always home t o m e , I never had far to go t o
work, w h e n I w a s young c o u l d even walk u p t o the subway, so in
fact if the w eather was too bad I could always walk , just straight
up Jarvis S treet and I ' d be on the yard . . . so that wasn't too bad,
and the hotels in those days . . . the N e w York Central used to be
(22)
�pa id on the tenth and the twenty-fifth . . . and the C . N . used to get
paid on the f ifteenth a n d the th i r tieth , so the hotels always had
fou r good days .
N.F:
They certa inly would .
P.D:
They had fou r good days a m onth anyhow you know .. ;and then betw een
t i m es if you wanted a drink, and you d idn't have any m oney . . . why
then you would have to charge it, s i m ply put it on the books . . . all
these stores used to be pr ivate stores and you w ould go down and
buy you r grocerie s and ju s t charge it .. . it was all cha rges, there
was no cash and c a r ry . . . you charged
e ve r y th ing ,
you had y o u r own
book . . . the storekeeper w ould have a w h ole shelf o r shelves of boo ks ,
with your
I
got
what
i n i t ials o n ,
you
so
you w e n t in and y ou got you r m ea t ,
w a n t e d to eat during the
w ell then on payday, when
that c a m e
,
week, a n d
charge it
y ou
all. . .
you went down and you had
to pay these bills, by the t i m e you paid all
t h e bills and had th r e e
o r fou r dolla rs wor t h of bee r , you we re broke again .. . and you would
be back char ging again , and that is the way it w o r ked... but t oday
now with these big sto res now you can't cha r g e and that is t he only
t rouble.. . but all these sto res were all run on
cred it,
N.F:
Yes you would know everybody , but that is w h y
one.
And you would know eve r y body.
P.D:
every
and pa y day s used
to
be t wo
weeks,
and
som e
between
paydays
t im e s they w ou l d run
ove r , s ixteen day s before you got p a id . . . and the pay was s m all ,
so after you got your b il ls paid you d id n 't have noth ing left . . . well
you charged in cloth ing stores and butcher shops , and grocery s t o res
everyth ing was charge d ; well really a lot of them went brok e , s o m e
g u y s y o u k n o w wouldn't pay , they always cla imed that the best
paid on the railroad was the enginee r , and yet they were the hardest
m e n to get the m oney out oL: the hardest fam ilies to get the m oney
out of, it was always l ike that : . : a n d l ike you take the section men
they were the lowest paid, and they would pay up the i r b ills r ight
up, better than the engineer d i d :
N.F:
You would have known your politic ians back then;
(23)
�(
P.D:
Oh , yes, all of them , if you got into any t rouble in them days you
just called up your M e m be r of Parlia m e n t , and he'd tell you . . . oh
forget about it I'll have it fixed up for you t omor row .
N.F:
Is that r igh t i well that was good.
P.D:
S o m e of the names are Billy W illson in R idgeway , well he was a
conse rvative . . . and m y fathe r was r a is ed as a liberal. . . the wi:. m e n
didn't have no votes in t h e m days a n d I r e m e m be r when s h e got
her f irst vote . . . she told him that she was going to go out and k ill
you r vote . . . w h ich they w ouldn't d o , first they w ould talk it over
and dec ide . . . but that w as h o w she would t alk , she w as going to
do h is vote in now . . . then aft e r B illy W illson there was B ill H ouck ,
h e ran a big dairy far m on the N iagara Boulevard so he w as t h e
next m e mbe r of parlia m ent for around h e r e . . . s o everybo d y k n e w
h i m too, because he w as the s am e k in d of a fellow , o n l y they w e r e
m o r e t e m pe rance . . . B illy W illson h e al w ay s playe d g ol f at E r ie Downs . . .
and then you take l ike aft er they lost t h e be er license and the liquor
(
license years ago, then they h a d r o o m ing houses, like the Barnea
H ouse d o w n here, that w as j u s t a roo m ing house and the Bucket
I
call it , what is the real nam e , I've forgotten . . . well
I
call it the
Bucket anyway . . . a n d that was just a r oom ing h o u s e , everyth ing
w e nt d r y , the hotels and such they couldn't sell o r serve anything
alcoholic at all a t that time . . . and t h e n l ik e m y father if h e got sick
a n d h e wanted a bottle o f w h iskey o r anything . . . h e used t o g o t o
Doc Buell, go to Doc Buell o u r fam ily doctor in S tevensville . . . and
he had t o get a pres c r i p t ion, and then h e would have to sen d that
to M ontreal, oh yes, h e would get the w h iskey by the gallon . . . yes
h e would g iv e you a prescript ion for a gallon of w h iskey . . . send to
M ontreal . .. and then the mailman . . . he would be watc h ing for the
m a il ma n for days and days and days . . . until the mailman came along
and he would have the jug of w h iske y , all in a box . . . so it would
take maybe three weeks before he could get h is liquor . . . that's the
way they used to get their l iquor in them days you see in M ontreal
you could b u y w h iskey , but not in Ontario . . . and there is something
(
(24)
�(
else I've got to tell you about . . . you talk about bootleggers . . . there
used to be about e igh t or n ine book makers around town.
N.F:
You mean here in F ort E r ie ?
P.D:
Oh yes . . . if you go r ight on up t o this here place r ight behind my
place here . . . this long b u il d ing . . . and this was run by the Hawk ins
fa m ily, you know that is old Harry Hawk ins . . . and they would have
boards . . . big black boards l ike you would have in a school house . . .
all along these walls . . . and each blackboa r d would have a Racet rack
on it . . . Hialeah , P im l ic o , all d ifferent Racetracks . . and then there
was a guy walking on t h e platfo r m , all these blackboards were raised
up a bit . . . and t h is guy would have earphones on, and he w as getting
all t h e results . . . and they would have all these horses marked on
these black boards, d ifferent h orses for d iffe rent tracks . . . and they
had a regular w icket w h e r e you could go u p and make y o u r bets . . .
fifty cents, fifty cents was the lowest bet I th ink you could make . . .
fifty cents, dollar, t w o dollars , whatever you wanted t o bet, but
fifty cents was the lowest and w e ' d c h ip together a qua r t e r a p iece
(
and bet a horse . . . and t h is guy u p on the platfo r m he would tell you
as the horses w e r e r u n n ing . . . he'd call t h e m off j u s t the same as
Daryl W ells . . . and when the race was over h e would mark a ring
around the m and that was the w inne r . . . and then eventually h e would
get the p r ices, and h e would mark t h e p r ices d o w n . . . and you went
u p t o the w icket and you cashed your bet . . . you see there w as a book
here and there was one down at the foot of C ou r t w r ight S treet . . . and
then up to the south end there were three or four of the m . . . there
were a lot of the m u p there . . . but they w e re pract ically all f inanced
by the Hawkins , you see they w e re quite wealthy people in F or t
E r ie , a n d getting w e alth ier .
N.F:
That is the same fam ily then that owned the Queen's Hotel ?
P.D:
Yes . . . and that house on the corner, you know behind the Queen's
Hotel. . . r ight across fro m the Legion . . . well she used to run a book
room in the base m ent of that house . . . and then they had a n old
building that was on the north s ide . . . and you used to go upstairs
(
(25)
�(
and they had a w o m a n running a book there . . . l ike the h igher class
of people went down in t h e base m e n t , where it was n ic e , and she
used to run it herself . . . and then she had th is oth e r girl run it upstairs
at the other . . . and that was for the lower class of people . . . and then
behind, r ight bac k , across the street from the E r ie Lane, I call it
the E r ie Lane, it's G ra m my ' s now . . . right across from R obe's Gas
Station, there was an old build ing across th e alley th ere, F orsyth
S t reet runs th is w ay , east and west, on F orsyth S t reet there was
a b ig long building there was a book room there.
N.F:
I never realized that it was that b ig a business, they must have
had A m erican customers also .
P.D:
Oh y e s , it was a b ig bus iness and that is where a lot or most of the
custo m e r s come fro m , the A m e r icans . . . but it was always busy . . . and
they must have been mak ing m oney becau s e they never stopped . . .
and t h e c h ief of police h e never bothered the m .
N.F:
P.D:
(
Who was ch ief at that t i m e ?
A ndy G r iffin was t h e c h ie f when they were really w ide open . . .
and of course he was a good friend of the Hawk ins . . . but w e n e v e r
had too m any police
. . .
I r e m e m be r one police run the whole t o w n ,
d a y a n d n ig h t . . . old C a r t e r , he used a M odel A ca r , a n d he w o u l d
be police b o t h n ig h t a n d d a y . . . and t h e n t h e r e w e r e s o m e before
that .. . like I got arrested for rid ing a b icycle over here on Phipps
S t reet , on the s idewalk . . . on m y bicycle . . . we took a ride one S u n day
m e and another fello w , and we got u p on the sidew alk , boy that
was because the streets was all rough and stones, so we got u p on
the sidewalk, oh that was a nice s m ooth ride and we only rode about
a short d istance and he w aved a newspaper at us . . . s it t ing on the
veranda . . . old Dowd I th ink was h is name, he waved a newspaper
at us and he c o m e out and h e took ou r names and addresses, and
give us a su m mons . . . s o w e d idn't know , I took it home and Jezz
did I get a t r i m m ing . .. ! had to g ive this su m mons to m y father . . .
and the other fellow , a neighbou r who lived next door, h e had to
take his home to h is father . . . and the court house was right across
here someplace, over by the firehall here . . . and my mother c o m e
(
(26)
�(
down w ith m e in the horse and buggy , and we stopped at the railroad
and m y fathe r had told us to stop, and I guess he gave u s all the
money h e had in h is pocket . . . well we come down and theycharged
u s four dollars apiece . . . well my fathe r in the m days w as only g e t t ing
about two o r three dollars a day .
N.F:
Wow , that is a lot of money .
P.D:
Well you know what we had to do then . . . when we got back on the
far m was do a little work . . . and I do m ean a l it tle work .
N.F:
B r idgeburg always had a fire station, or c o m pany ?
P.D:
Yes, all horses and f ire wagons . . . over here r ight by Don Dean's . . .
Benners us ed to have t h e ir team . . . and they had the harnesses drop
right over the horses . . . that was it . . . horses would j ust go crazy when
they would hear the fire bell.
N.F:
It m u s t have been exc iting at that t i m e .
P.D:
But I was pretty young for t h e m days to know too much about th e m ,
I j u s t can re m e mbe r because I h a d a n uncle w h o lived on P h ipps
Street, a n d we u s e d to c o m e down and play cards at n ight at th is
uncle's . . . and I r e m e mbe r he belonged to the fire c o m pany when
that happened, and that is how I r e m e mbe r e d .
N.F:
D i d they m o v e the f ir e s tat ion when they got the trucks ?
P. D :
Y e s they put it in the town hall. . . that is where it was moved ove r
on the other s ide of the town hall, and they had j u s t a s m all plac e ,
i f y o u h a d a fire m e e t ing, t h e f ire m e n couldn't all g e t in i t , used
to have to back the trucks out . . . and m ake a lit tle spot to have
a meet ing . . . and then this used to be the town tool shanty r ight here,
that is when I moved h e r e , they used to make repa irs here, and
it was st ill a tool shanty . . . and then afte r they moved over on Lew is
Street, where they are now , well then they made a fire hall out
of this .
N.F:
So that is when that was done.
P.D:
Yes, so they put the front on first for the trucks . . . then G u y V iolino,
he put the extentions on it . . . he put the last one on . . . so we've got
{
(27)
�(
a n ice little hall over there now . . . we had a b ig s t reet dance here,
on Satu r day n ight . . . but it raine d at eleven o'clock at n igh t , neve r
rained at S tevens v ille , o r R idgeway , and it just s plashe d down h e r e
it s t a r t e d at eleven o'clock . . . j u s t s h e n everybody w a s gett ing p r i m ed
up . . . everybody was rar ing to go and get out and dance , just got
started, and the rain started, it just splashe d down and last e d about
an hou r , just enough that everybody went h o m e , and spoiled the
even ing , the whole thing, we lost a lot of money on that.
N.F:
F o r sure y e s , how long has the c o m pany in the north e n d here, and
all the c o m pan ies been having the ir parades and dances ?
P .D:
.
The street dance we h a d here . . th is is only about the second one
w e had recently . . . b u t w e intend to have one yearly n o w . . . and N u m be r
T w o C o m pany u s e d t o have dances a t t h e Racetrack, that w a s years
ago at the B e r t ie F a ir as I was tell ing you . . . but that had to be a
long t i m e ago because I was only a k i d .
N.F:
(
They've been do ing it f o r a long t i m e the n .
P.D:
N u m be r One C o m pany , they've been hav ing that J a m boree there
for quite a w h ile . . . number one handles it but we all alway s j o ined
in w ith w o r k ing w it h t h e m , all the c o m panies go in and then there
are a lot of c o m panies f r o m t h e s tates that come ove r . .. they have
quite a parade because w e are always on the front of t h e parade . . .
pretty well i n the front, and w e are back dr inking beer in the park
here and the parade is s t ill c o m ing out of the school grounds where
they fo r m u p . . . so it is a long parade, it goes clear down W in te r m u t e
across t h e N iagara Bouleva r d , and t h e n u p Gilmore a n d into the
g rounds . . . so it really is a long parade , and they have that every
year.
N.F:
They really had a good parade in 1 9 5 7 , the firemen really fit in
well for F o r t E r ie's Centennial Year, the firemen worked extra
hard that year.
P.D:
Oh hell, they were up o n top of my roof here, people were all over
everywhere when that w ent by . . . well that w as a b ig one . . . that w as
really a b ig parade .
(
N.F:
The bridge , C entral A v e nue b r idge was u p then wasn' t it ?
(28)
�{
P.D:
Yes . . . yes, that w as u p .
N.F:
I've heard that it was a hu ge, long, long parade .
P.D:
O h , yes it was . . . well yes they brought all those g irls from M c Van's
you know, M c Van's over in Buffalo at the corner of H ertel and
N iagara . . . M c Van's they have torn that building down now . ; -. but
that used t o be a real . . . all the m ovie stars from H ollywood used
to c o m e and stop there on their vacations . . . because Mr. M cV a n
had a r e a l good d r a g w ith a l o t of b i g shots . . . a n d I m e t R ochester
who used to be w ith and appear with Jack Benny . . . he came over
here j u s t to stop in for one weekend . . . and he ended u p s t a y ing the
whole w eek . . . he'd say " w h a t a good t i m e you fellows have around
here" and e v e r y body was buying h i m drinks . . . but I danced w ith the
K ing S is t e r s o v e r t h e r e , all three of t h e m . . . and
g ir l w h o u s e d t o s ing f o r C a m pbell's
Tomato
I
danced w ith
..
a
S o u p � oh it u s ed
to
b e q u i t e a t i m e . . . a n d t h e y would j u s t l e t their h a i r d o w n because
they w e r e really on a vacation . . . a n d Mr. M c V a n u s e d t o pay them . . .
h e place would b e j u s t j a m m e d pac ked . . . w e l l , pr o bably h e g av e
{
them
enough for t h e i r m eals a n d a few d r inks a n d s tuff like t ha t , t h ey
d id n ' t w a n t no b ig m on e y . . . they was j u s t h av i n g
of on vacation . . . and d id n ' t have t o pay
for
a
good t i m e ,
sort
it� .. so there w e re a bunch
of t he m , a couple of hay rack loads of t h e m that w e n t in t h a t p ar a de
,
that w e n t by here . . . and t h e m a s t e r of c e r e m on ies . : . h e was h e r e
.
and in on that too . . . bu t e v ery body kn e w one another . J ' d t ake s o m ebody
ove r , some of my rela t ives , maybe a d istant relat ive who lived far
from here and we'd go over there to M c V an's . . . and I' d get the master
of cere m onies behind s t age and I would tell h i m they w ere here
v is i ting from such and such, and he would get u p on t h e s t age . ; ;and
announce their names and they couldn't figure out how in the w o rld
he knew this , and h e would make them stand u p . : . oh , and that w as
the way t h e place worked, it was really interes t ing . . . everyone s i m ply
had a good t i m e .
N.F:
Yes I bet they di d, did F ort Erie go th rough a rat ioning period in
the Second W orld War ?
(
P.D:
Oh yes , everyth ing was ratione d .
(29)
�(
N.F:
D id it really get to a severe point in F ort E r ie ?
P.D:
Well nobody suffered too m u ch . . . because you was trad ing one coupon
off to somebody else for anoth e r c oupon . . . and gasoline, well you
could get some of these places they got the gasoline somehow or
other . . . you could even buy phony gasol ine t ickets .
N.F:
I never real ized F o r t E r ie got involved in those th ings.
P.D:
Oh yes, we had a fellow h e r e , right down at the end of the street
here . . . he had a gas stat ion and hell, he had to take those t ickets
and put them in the bank too, those t ickets after they took t h e m
b a c k in, y o u k n o w a f t e r t h e y bought g a s . . . b u t he h a d coupons they
would feel just l ike that plate, a th ick paper plate . . . but I wouldn't
take no chances by going t o a ny other gas station, I'd always g e t
m y g a s from h i m . . . and I guess m ay be t h a t was what h e want e d .
N.F:
I t sure could have been y e s .
P.D:
I ' d always take them back to h i m . . . and then I used to . . . when I was
w o r k ing the ra ilroad , n igh t s , I used to work for A rch ie M ac Glashen . . .
(
h e run the F ort E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . down at the foot o f J a r v is .
N.F:
That w as the name of i t , the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany ?
P.D:
Y e s the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . h e had p iles of coal in there . . .
stoker coal, h e used t o g e t it in there by the barge loads , th is stoker
coal. . . well then I used to run that big crane, that c rane had a n inety
foot b o o m on it . . . and I used to g o down and help him run that c rane . . .
m y brother ran it first . . . when the war broke out he had ju s t got
h is c o m m e r c ial license . . . s o they grabbed h i m and took h i m in the
A ir Force r ight away . . . so I used to go down there . . . this M ik e S t o r m
t h a t h a s this contract bus iness h e r e . . . w e l l he used t o r u n it , b u t
he h a d a business of h is own, a n d he j u s t couldn't p u t in a l l that
time . . . so between m y young brother and I , we used to run the c rane
fo r A rc h ie MacGlashen . . . and then he was selling stokers, and putting
them in . . . well, I used to go around putt ing in stokers, in people' s
furnaces i n m y spare t i m e . . . a n d then we were loading scrap iron,
we would push in a . . . the railroad would push in a whole bunch of
e m pty cars down there . . . and w e would have a barge load of scrap
(
(3 0)
�iron c o m e in . . . and we had a magnet, for the crane, and w e used
to p ick it u p . . . and load all these cars up, because it was always
shipped by rail . . . the scrap iron was during the war . . . oh that was
a . . . really a going concern down there . . . that was really s o meth ing . . . he
done a g reat business down there . . . and then h e used to have this
sand dock too . . . s i licate sand they called it, that's something else
they used t o ship out too . . . W illia m s , Bud W illia m s of the W illiams
G old R e f inery, they had a share into that, you s e e M ac G lashen h e
h a d I th ink fifty-one
percent or someth ing s o h e could h a v e control l ing
interest of it . . . and W illiams had the rest . . . but M acGlashen he operated
it all, and it was a l ittle extra spending money for me .. .I'd be working
n ights and oh, s o m e t i m e s you would get an extra two or three hours
sleep at n ight on t h e r a ilroad on those benc h e s , those h ar d benches . . .
that is w h e r e I got arthritis I th ink . . . sleeping o n t h e m benches . . . but
hell in t h e m days w h e n you w e r e young you only needed t w o or three
hours sle e p , and you were all s e t to go . . . as far as the m oney you
m ade down there , it didn't d o no good . . . you would spend it maybe
before you got h o m e . . . o r charged that much, whatever you made
you would have it p u t o n t h e book s o m e place . . . y e s there w e re a
lot of boats used t o c o m e in h e r e , and then they brought soft coal
in there, and it u s e d t o come f r om Toledo, Ohio, boats run ning
back and fo rth , that w a s the old coal dock they called it . s t ok e r s
.
.
e v e r y b o d y in t o w n that c o u l d affo rd one had a c o a l stoker . in t h e i r
furnace . . . a good i d e a . . . oh it w a s a l l r ight i n t h e m days unt il the
coal got bad, and then, see I was gett ing telephone calls all the
time to come and fix people ' s stokers . . . they got s tones , the stones
got m ixed u p in it, in the coal . . . MacG lashen had gravel and stuff
down there too . . . they used to get the gravel r ight across the r iver
here , y e s they could take gravel r ight out, just over across the r iver,
and h e w ould b r ing a scow load over there and h e was selling gravel
there then too . . . and then the k ids were throw ing the gravel around
these stone p iles and coal p iles . . . well, in the furnace then, the stones
would work their way against the stoker wor m and shear the p in
(3 1)
�(
off . . . then they w ould be calling me to come and help t h e m . . . they
have got no heat . . . and t h e k ids would freeze to death . . . if I was h o m e
a n d wasn't working I ' d h a v e to g e t u p i n the m iddle of the night
and go out and fix s o m e body's stoker .
N.F:
That would be a m is e rable job, yes.
P .D:
Well you know , you didn't m ind it then when you were young, and
working was s i m ply a w ay of life . . . if you weren' t doing someth ing
else . . . you were work ing . . . but th is A rc h ie M ac G lashen he was a real
n ice fellow though, yes anytime I needed any m oney, why, I'd j u s t
go down to h im.
N.F:
I hear that h e d id a lot for the com munity too.
P.D:
Yes h e was a great C h a m be r of C o m merce man t oo, F ort E r ie ' s
C h a m b e r of C o m m e r c e . . . h e was a g o o d man . . . h e c o u l d figure i n
h is h e a d a s f a s t as y o u c o u l d w ith a pencil . . . an d t h a t man could
re m e m be r anyth ing . . . h e had a good m e m o r y , h e w ould s c ratch h is
head when h e wanted to call . . . maybe call Ottawa, s o m ebody in
Ottawa about a boat load of s o m e th ing, and h e w ould j ust scratch
(
his head a l it tle w h ile a n d then he would dial t h e nu m b e r . .. that
is the m e m o ry h e had, yes h e was fine . . . well h e helped bu ild the
W indsor Tunnel, and how h e got t o F ort E r ie was t h e P eace B r idge . . .
see they built the W indsor Tunnel, and if you g o th rough that t r affic
tunne l , well t h e r e is a c u r v e in it . . . it goes around a c u r v e , and t h e n
int o the U n it e d S tates at D e t r o it . . . and they started from the o t h e r
end, a n d t h e y s t a r t e d f r o m th is e n d a n d he t o l d m e w h e n t h e y got
together they were only three inches out . . . work ing from both ends
underneath the water.
N.F:
To meet at a point l ike that.
P .D:
Yes sir, and they worked in com part men ts in that tunnel and all
com pressed air you know . . . them guys got well paid, b igger than
the ordinary salary, but they were rough , and he told me that there
would be men die pretty near every other day, they would clear
them out dead . . . they ' d d ie in there . . . and at the end of the week
when pay day was . . . that gang that was working that week, you
(
(3 2)
• . .
�(
would never have them the next week . . . s o you w ould have to have
anothe r gang , all ready to go in, and they would go in in the ir place
and t h is other gang would go out at the ir sh ift end and booze up,
s pend all the m oney they made, and when the alternate gang would
go out , they would do the same th ing . . . and that gang was ready
to come back in again . . . but he told m e he had run across a blacks m it h ,
he needed one of those f o r tools and everyth ing . . . and h e said "the
best black s m ith he had was an alcohol ic, he was continuously all
the t i m e d r inking, but he could really sharpen ch isels and th ing s ,
he r eally k n e w h is business about iron " , a n d he w a s a n alcoholic . . .
yet h e was one of the best blac k s m iths they ever had, s t r ictly an
alcoholic . . . well then aft e r they finished . . . that b ig c rane I was telling
you about . . . they moved that from D e t r o i t , they brought it d o w n
here a n d it w o r k e d on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . so h e , A rchie, w o r k e d
on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . a n d j u s t the day before he d ie d , h e d ie d o n
a S u n d a y , w a t c h i n g tele v is io n , h e l ived on t h e N iagara Boulev a r d ,
j u s t d o w n below F rench man's C re e k, he d rove out in f r o n t h e r e ,
(
in front of t h e h o u s e here on C e n t ral A venu e , a n d h e was tell ing
m y w ife, h e says " you tell that husband of yours to get that belly
off, or he ain't going to last long " , and he w en t home and d r op p e d
dead in h is chesterfield t h e next day .
N.F:
I s n ' t that s o m e t h ing .
P.D:
B u t h e was really , really good t o m e . . . well l used to help h i m ·out
...
wh enever h e wanted help . . . and he would loan me h is car, or t ruck
or anyth ing I wanted, I couldn't be w ithout wheels.
N.F:
It m u s t have been busy down at those dock s , I've never realized
how m uch they handled and did.
P.D:
Now you see that track ran right s traight through . . . r ight up in front
of the R oyal Hotel there . . . maybe at one t i m e they took the steel
off the tracks , tore it out , but the tracks used to run r ight back
in, right back to the end . . . and that wall, started to cave out . . .
because w e had that great big boom c rane must have w e ighed tons
and t ons . . . and b ig w ide caterp illar treads on it they were huge . . .
(
(3 3)
�(
well, you know , that wall started to sh ift out . . . so I helped h i m on
that . . . w e d ig the ground away from the ins ide of the wall . . . and we
drilled holes through that c e ment . . . oh the walls were about , two
feet thick . . . we d r illed holes th rough that c e m ent and put bolts in
and nuts and a cable . . . then w e dug a t rench oh halfway back t o
���·�
that dock , we dug m ay b e from here to across the s t r ee t , a good
fifty feet . . . dug a t rench about that w id e , maybe e ight inche s to
a foot w id e , and d e e p , and filled that w ith stones and rocks and
everyth ing and lay e d th is cable in, w ith clamps attached to it, you
see the r e were c la m ps on the cable . . . and they would lay it back
in, and fill that full o f c e m ent, and put them m aybe s ix feet apart . . .
all along the length o f that w hole wall, and then let it d r y , and f ill
it in . . . and that is w h a t is h o l d ing that wall today.
N.F:
That was a good idea.
P.D:
It is still s olid down t h e r e now . . . well that wall w ill never go u n t il
those cables d e t e r iorate . . . that is the only th ing that w ill let it g o ,
y o u k n o w a l o t o f people d o n ' t k n o w anyth ing about t h a t . . . person
(
I was going t o talk t o , I'll s e e h i m at lodge, t h e owner, U t iv i t c h ,
yes I'll tell h i m .
N.F:
The dock down there w as that a natural shape or m an- m ade ?
P.D:
Well, h o w it g o t s t a r t e d I don't know , it was all fille d , they j u s t
k e p t filling a n d f illing, t h e y got a l l the d irt t h a t t h e y c o u l d g e t ,
it was bu ilt w a y u p towards the International B r idge, b u t t h e r e w a s
another building at the s o u t h e n d of that dock t o o . . . w h e r e there
was a laundry put in there at the south end of the dock one t i m e ,
they r u n a laundry ther e , a n d t h e r e w a s a carpenter s h e d where
they made boxes for the Fleet A irc raft , and a carpenter shop in
there too , of course that has been all torn down.
N.F:
And that is where Her b G ue s s eventually moved into was down there.
P.D:
No, Herb G ue s s is down ac ross from the Ohio Hotel, down further
s till, that w as all filled in, there were two places down there . . . so
he got one . . . and different ones lived in the other one, it was M rs .
Bard o l that owned E r ie Beach a t one time, she lived i n a little
(
(3 4)
.•
��..;D%
�{
cottage down there, next to H e r b Guess . . . then r ight out here . . .
there was a water tank . . . stood r ight out behind t h e garden here,
j u s t a big round water tank . . . fifteen feet around maybe , and s e venty
feet h igh . . . and when they tore that dow n , to build the other water
tank . . . they dropped h e r down, and they cut h e r u p I th ink into three
s ilos, and that is what A rc h ie MacGlashen used t o store coal and
stuff in aft e r that . . . and that is about all that I can tell you s i r .
N.F:
Thank you very m u ch for the intervie w , and for all of the interest ing
information.
(35)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Neil Findall
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Percy Detenbeck
Location
The location of the interview.
Mr. Detenbeck's home at 545 Central Avenue, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette Tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Detenbeck, Percy
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Percy Detenbeck's interview. He discusses such topics as:
The Depression
Railroad
Recreaction
Schools
Bootlegging
Erie Beach
Business and industry
Fleet
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Politics
Hotels and taverns
Fire department
Fort Erie Centennial
World War II
Factories and industry
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
1980s
1985
Centennial
Erie Beach
factories and industry
Fleet
Fort Erie
Great Depression
hotels and taverns
Oral history
politics
railroad
recreation
schools
stores and businesses
transcripts
world war II
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http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/f72195c2cb187429ffd2b14b3d2017bf.pdf
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This is Shelley Richer interviewing Ross Brown in his home at
5 Jessie Street, on July 19,1985 .
S.R:
Hello Mr. Brown. How are you?
R.B:
Fine, thank you.
S.R:
What is your date of birth?
R.B:
January the 26th, 1905.
S.R:
Where were you born?
R.B:
On Dufferin Street in Fort Erie. It was Bridgeburg at the time.
S.R:
Have you lived in the area all of your life then?
R.B:
I have.
S.R:
Could you tell me what school you attended and where it is located?
R.B:
Rose Seaton, and it's not there any more. It's tore down. It
was on Phipps Street. The one they tore down and built it over
here on the other street.
S.R:
Do you know why they tore it down?
R.B:
Oh, I don't know.
S.R:
How far away from home would your school have been?
R.B:
Oh, two blocks at the most.
S.R:
How did you get to school then?
R.B:
Walk. Walked to school. Oh, we used to go to school bare footed.
S.R:
Could you describe your school and your teachers names and
the number of students?
R.B:
I remember we had a teacher Jane Gerrard. I think it was two
sisters. I think the other ones name was Hel en and she was
a wonderful teacher. She was very strict and she'd take a striap
and hit any kid in any seat. She'd just throw from that desk and
she should have been a ball player. Hughie Henderson was the
principal.
S.R:
Could you describe your school, like it was when you started?
R.B:
When I went there was two rooms downstairs and two rooms
upstairs. There was.. .in the hallway in the front there was stairways
went up this way and this way. And that side was the boys side
and this was the girls side. And we wasn't allowed on one anothers
side cttrecess. The girls stayed on their side and the boys stayed
on their side.
S.R:
Did the school change at all after that?
R.B:
Oh yeah. They built some on the back and there was more rooms.
(1)
�S.R:
R.B:
No. It was there when I went to school. That's all I know.
S.R:
(
Do you remember what year it was built?
Is there anything interesting you can remember about your school
days? Any little stories.
R.B:
Well the first coloured boy ever went to the school here, there
was fourteen of us got a whippin' for calling him chocolate drop.
In them days you got a whippin' on the hand with a strap. We
got it pretty good. That was Mr. Henderson, the teacher was
at school, the principal was. My grandfather donated part of
his property for a coloured grave yard there, way back, years
and years back. I can't tell ya...on, Ridgemount Road and...it's
near the grave yard...what do you call that grave yard...the Ridgemount
Grave Yard. He donated the property for the coloured people.
Now they're living at this end of the town. They had to go up
to the other end of the town, Old Fort Erie, and there was, up
on the hill there, and they used to have to live there. They didn't
belong in this end.
S.R:
R.B:
No.
S.R:
You were never a church attender or anything like that?
R.B:
(
Are you a member, or have you been a member of a church?
The wife and the kids are. My kids went to sunday school and
I believe they should go.
S.R:
What church was your family brought up in then?
R.B:
Presbyterian.
S.R:
And where is that church?
R.B:
Highland and Central. Saint Andrews Knox Church.
S.R:
Do you remember what year it was built?
R.B:
1930. Opened in 1930.
S.R:
Have you ever been in it to know any changes that took place
in it, or if there was any additions or anything like that?
R.B:
Yes,11 was in it when my kids got christened. One time I was
in uniform when I came. back. We had our boy christened because
he was born when I was over... when I was in Newfoundland. When
I come home we went to the church so he could be christened.
I took my daughter down the isle when she got married. That
(
church burnt down. The original Presbyterian Church was on
Courtwright Street. You know where the bowling alley is now
on Court.. . just around the corner on Courtwright Street there?
(2�)
�Well just around the corner towards the river, back of the garage
there was a big building. It was a Presbyterian Church. My mother
(
used to look after it, do the cleaning in it, and that's why I remember.
When I was a little boy she used to take us there when she did
it. This would be around, maybe 1910 or 11. That church burned
down.
S.R:
Do you remember about what year?
R.B:
I don't remember what year but it's a long time ago. It burnt
down in thirty-one.
S.R:
Some of the changes in the area. Could you describe the old boundaries?
R.B:
Well. Bowen Road. Gilmore Road was a boundary between Old
Fort Erie and Bridgeburg. And Bridgeburg was called International
before Bridgeburg, and before International it was called Victoria.
S.R:
Do you know why the names changed so much then?
R.B:
Well, International was changed on account of the bridge being
built, this railway bridge called International Bridge. So they
changed the name from Victoria to International. Yeah, International
Bridge. Then when it got changed to Bridgeburg... I don't know
when that happened. It's been Bridgeburg pretty well as long
(
as I remember. The other is history you know, what I've been
told in school.
S.R:
Then there was three areas in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Yeah, there was Amigari, Fort Erie and Bridgeburg.
S.R:
So then Amigari was the Thompson Road.
R.B:
Yeah, Amigari was the... that end of the...the top end of Gilmore,
right by the railway tracks there. You know where the hotel
is there across from the race track? That was Amigari. You
know where the...well there was a little store there on Gilmore
Road there. That was Amigari, pretty well Amigari. All from
the Horton Steel over was Amigari. Over that way. It used to
be Jackson's Store. It was right on the corner there where...the
first road from the railway tracks. There's all lumber across
from it now.
S.R:
Could you tell me who your neighbours were when you were growing
up?
(
R.B:
Yes. There was people by the name of Britnell lived next door
to us. And there was Flake's lived on the other side of us, Frank
Flake. There was people lived further down called Jones. I don't
(3)
�know, remember his first name. But I remember one time my
brother and I was in there when we was kids, and they had little
(
peach trees next to 'em, and we was in there taking the peaches
and we had our caps off. We had them full and she come and
we run and left the caps and all. It was some years afterwards
that we moved next door, next door to them, and she kept calling
us kids to give us a hat and we was scared because we was thinking
of the peaches, so finally she give them to my mother. Here's
the kids hats that had the peaches in.
S.R:
Back then, about how many neighbours, how many people lived
on a block?
R.B:
Well, where I am now, there was nothing here but bushes. Jarvis
Street is almost the same. There's a few differences. Jarvis
Street, back of the Pratt and Lambert, used to be the ball grounds.
Baseball. Then it was moved on this next corner down here.
The corner of Robinson, right on the corner, in that field over
there was baseball. Then over on Jarvis Street, back on the other
street, was behind the ball grounds, and there was people by the
name of Hannis's lived there. They were allowed to keep pigs
(
in Fort Erie. They had a pigpen there. Their son Charlie goes
up to bat and he hit a home run, and he hit it and it landed in
the pigpen. That's interesting isn't it?
S.R:
Could you describe Jarvis Street? Take me on a little memory
walk down Jarvis Street. What the street was like, store names
and owners.
R.B:
It seemed to be more hilly. It was just mud with some stone on
it. I had an uncle that lived on Jarvis Street, that had a livery
stable. In them days nothing come to the stores by truck, it come
to the station and it had to be walked from the station to the
stores, and that's why the livery men did a lot of that, as well
as delivered to homes. And he, right where the Royal Bank is
now, there home was. Back of it he had a barn because there
was an alley back there, and he kept his horses in the barn, and
he had his horse. Of course there was no automobiles in them
days. His name was William Brown, my father's brother.
(
S.R:
What about the other stores and store owner's name that you
can think of?
R.B:
Well there was a store right next to it that was called Ward Kraft
(4)
�Store. There is some of their ancestors are alive someplace yet.
(
That's about where the Canadian Tire is now. Well, where the
Canadian Tire used to be before they moved over there. And
I had another Uncle Pete who was a plumber in Fort Erie. He
was also the custodian to the town hall for years.
S.R:
What did Amigari have to offer?
R.B:
A railway run through there. The race track is there.
S.R:
Which railroad would that have been?
R.B:
It would be, at that time, the Grand Trunk. The CNR now. It
wasn't government owned. It was called Grand Trunk, and it run
through Amigari there. And there was a little yard over that
used to be cars stored into. On this side of the Royal Hotel there
was half a dozen tracks there. And the later years they had a
coal pile there. This would be during the J)epression years, the
thirties. They used to have a huge coal pile, oh there was hundreds,
and hundreds on tons. I didn't know why they stored it on the
ground there. Well when the Depression come along that was
really handy for a lot of the people. Almost any house in Amigari,
(
or even in this part of the town, you'd see black smoke coming
out of the chimneys. People not working, they'd carry the coal
away. Nobody bothered them.
S.R:
What, the Grand Trunk never ever said anything about people
taking their coal?
R.B:
No. They had detectives you know on the railways. We had one.
There's some of them living here today. But I think they, I don't
know they know but I think they did. They realized that people
was up against it. Oh, the Depression was bad. I was laid off
during the early thirties and we was on what they call the pogey,
they called it relief. We used to call it the pogey. I worked two
days a week for it. That's eight days a month for twenty-six dollars
a month. That's what I got.
S.R:
What did you have to do to work for it?
R.B:
Go down and report to the town shanty and dig a sewer or dig
a water line up or anything they had to do.
S.R:
(
Where is the town shanty?
R.B:
It was right where the fire hall is today across from the...on Jarvis
Street. You know where the fire hall is? That was a work shanty
before the fire hall was there.
(5)
�S.R:
(
Do you know when the three little villages became Fort Erie and
the reasons why?
R.B:
January the 1st, 1932, and the reason why was it... Fort Erie was
back in history, so they thought they'd take a name that had a
historical name to it. Where Bridge burg, you know, they was...they
had changed the names and Fort Erie does have an old history
on account of the Old Fort. That's why they took the name.
S.R:
ls there any other changes that you can... prominent changes that
have happened in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Well when they built the Fleet during the war, that caused a lot
of employment. Enough people worked there. At one time in
Fort Erie you was either railway men or customs officers. There
was no other jobs. They used to have a little mail car. Mail used
to come in by railway. The man had to go over to the station
to pick the mail up. He had a cart with two wheels, and he used
to bring it back over to the post office from there. And he'd
take all the outgoing mail.
S.R:
(
What did Fort Erie have to offer in sports?
R.B:
Baseball. We played a lot of it even way back then. It was local...and
they used to have the play-offs, they'd go to the other cities and
play them off. One year there was a special train out of Fort
Erie. With it being as small as it is. .. to go to a baseball game.
And if I remember right, I think it was up north. I think it was
a place called Deloro. They run a special train out even. To
give you some more information onto it, when you went down
town and went to the stores or to the barber shop...closed 'till
after ball game. We'll be open after ball game. We didn't go
to school either. That's right because nobody had cars. Oh, you'd
go down there and there would be two or three thousand people
sat around and watched the ball game. Now this is...this time
I told you the ball game was over here. They moved the ball ground
down by the river where... you know where it is today , at the
end of Bowen Road there. The first house as you was going down
Central, that big house there, there used to be people by the name
of Day moved there. When we were boys, he's older, he was called
Homer. So I seen him a while ago and I says, when they used
to hit a ball way up there, and it landed in your lawn it was a
home run. ls that why they call you Homer? He laughed
but I don't suppose that was it.
(6)
�S.R:
(
Was there any famous teams at all? Any really, really popular
teams in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Yes. They almost went to the championship...they went to the
championship one year but I can't remember what year. I think
they just got beat out by the last team. The championship of
Ontario. They were Bridgeburg Mentholatum's.
S.R:
Do you remember any of the players?
R.B:
Oh yes, yes. Ray Young, Williamson. He was almost a big leaguer
here. Jack Williamson was a pitcher. Hall was the catcher.
Tommy Frazer, first base. Wess Towers, Bruce Hogue, he was
well enough to be the post master a while back. R. Atwood, he
was the undertaker later on. Charlie Hannis, the fellow I told
you hit the ball in the pigpen.
S.R:
In the old arena in Fort Erie, what activities used to go on there?
R.B:
Hockey, hockey, hockey is all I know. The Bisons played there.
That was their home team, home arena. And during the Depression,
nobody had much money or anything, so what they used to do...they
didn't smoke in there, and between periods, you know the three
periods in hockey, they'd open the door and they'd go outside and
(
smoke. Then they'd come in for their next period. Well they
had pass out checks for when they come back in, so an old fellow
that worked in there, he give me the pass out checks. They had
different colours each week. Well he give me one of all the colours.
I'd go up between, after the first period and get in. He'd show
me which seats wasn't occupied. I was getting in for nothing
seeing the last two periods. Well, if you didn't have any money
you didn't ... ! realize it was cheap, but nobody had anything in
them days, and I walked from here up to there. You know where
the arena is. It's in the same place. Oh, you didn't mind it.
S.R:
Was the arena the same as it is now?
R.B:
No, they made some changes in it. The arena was...we had the
big snow in 1937 I think it was, or'36, '37 ...the arena caved in
because the snow got too heavy on the roof. It fell down March
17, 1936.
S.R:
Was anybody hurt or was it occupied at the time?
R.B:
No, nobody was hurt. It was in the early hours of the morning.
No, nobody was hurt. They rebuilt on the same spot now again.
That's in the same place, the one there now.
(7)
�S.R:
(
Were you involved in any sports?
R.B:
Oh yeah, I played softball. I played for the West Ends. We was
the champions of Fort Erie.
S.R:
What year was that?
R.B:
Several years.. !28, 129, 130. I can show you some pictures of them.
So anyway, I got laid off when the war was over. .. it was being
the first world war was on, and I went to work for the Pratt and
Lamberts. The players from the Falls sent pitchers to beat us.
Nobody could beat us in Fort Erie. At one time we was playing
a junior team, another team, I forget their name, but it was run
by the merchants of Fort Erie. And anyways it was three out
of five, the championship. We lost the first two games.
There
was a fellow betting on us, and we won the next three. He said,
oh you fellows did that on purpose. Well he don't know we had
a meeting after losing those two games and was sure we was done.
How we ever got out of it I don't know, but we won the next three.
S.R:
So you won the championship again?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah. Then I played for McMorrans. We, the West Ends
and McMorran, he first come to town and started his tailor shop
(
down here, sold men's clothes. And anyways, he backed us up
and made our sweaters. We used to... well we was a good smart
outfit. But I'll tell you what we used to do. We used to run card
parties in the winter, and everybody would donate their home.
Maisie's mother and father did. We'd go to a different home and
have tea and we'd pay a quarter, or whatever it was, then we
had enough money to buy our sweaters with. You know our organization
was...and Maisie's father used to take up a collection for us at
the games and that helped pay for things too. And boy when he
took up a collection, he'd walk a mile if someone was a mile away, with
a hat. Albert Keenan was her father. He was a boiler maker
on the railway.
S.R:
Do you remember when the fire department started in Fort Erie?
R.B:
I don't remember the exact day when it started, but I remember
the old tbwn half was; a wooden building and it had a little square
glass, about six inches square, you broke out and you reached
(
the rope and you pulled the bell. That's what let you know when
there was a fire. The bell rang. Frank Benner was just around
the corner, the fire hall was on Central near the back end where
(8)
�the town hall is today. Frank Benner was down there on the other
side of Spears Garage there, and he had a team of horses. He come
(
with his horses. He put them horses on that fire wagon. Them
horses would just go crazy. That was really something.
S.R:
How did they get the fire out? What is a fire wagon?
R.B:
They had hoses and big pumps. They had a fire wagon. He'd pull
the fire wagon, the horses, and they had the hoses wound down
there and then they'd unwind them.
S.R:
So there was already town water?
R.B:
Oh yeah, yeah, there was town water, yeah.
S.R:
Do you remember what you had to do before there was town water?
R.B:
Well, I don't remember us not having water but I remember them
not having sewer and there were outside, outside, what we called
the back house in them days. Outside toilets and pay birds. And
they used to...well the, it used to be a fellow out in the country
you used to hire him every year, you know. That's when Eaton's
catalogue was handy. You never had any toilet paper and you always
hauled the Eaton's Catalogue up in the toilet. You know... pages.
(
S.R:
What was there to do for entertainment, such as on a date?
R.B:
Oh entertainment. Play cards... play cards, play euchre and went
to the show three times a week.
S.R:
Where's the show?
R.B:
It was on Dufferin Street.
S.R:
Do you remember the name and where on Dufferin Street?
R.B:
Yeah, the Bellard. There used to be two fellows that run it. I forget
their names. The Regent then, and then they sold it to the Ziffs.
That's when the Ziffs first come here, the whole family. And the
Ziff family really had run that show wonderful. And all of them
was part of it. Barney, which you know. You know Barney don't
ya? Well he had the bowling alley up at the other end, he run the
picture machine. His sister played the piano up at the front. In
them days they played the piano up at the front because it was
silent pictures when they first started. One of his sisters sold the
tickets and...the mother. And one of the sisters took them as you
went in. The whole family and it was a hard...and I just said today
there was one of them from that family. They're really hard working,
wonderful...and they're Jewish people. Wonderful people.
S.R:
What was the name before it was the Bellard?
(9)
�R.B:
(
The Regent run by a Captain Highland. Yeah, Captain Highland,
yeah. And they'd get drunk and they wouldn't light the fire because
there was only two stoves and everybody would freeze and go home.
Well when the Ziffs came they rebuilt it, then it was called the
Bellard.
S.R:
Do you remember when the Bertie Fair at the Old Fort Erie Race
Track took place?
R.B:
Yes, I certainly do.
S.R:
Do you remember the years?
R.B:
Well one particular year my wife put peaches into it and won a
prize for her canned peaches. That was in 1935 , or somewhere
in there. So, that everybody used to get first prize for their canned
peaches and all, you know it was fun, more fun.
S.R:
Would you be able to guess when it started or when it finished?
R.B:
1897 the track was built because that's when my sister was born.
She always talked about it, that she was born when the Race Track
started.
S.R:
(
The Bertie Fair started at the same time?
R.B:
I can't tell you when it started. It's been there as long as
I
remember.
That's all I can say, because we used to get a quarter to go to the
Bertie Fair when we was kids, and that had to last you all day...well
you could buy a hot dog for a nickle, sure. But it had to last you
all day. That's all you got. Then we used to go to Crystal Beach...a
farmer's picnic. Every year, they called it, the farmers had a picnic.
My ancestors on both sides was farmers. You know way back.
We used to go down here and get on a train and go as far as Ridgeway.
We'd get off at Ridgeway and get on a horse bus with benches along
the sides, with two horses, and they'd take you into Crystal Beach.
S.R:
Into the Amusement Park?
RJH:
Yeah, you go into the park and everybody took a lunch you know...a
basket full of food. Oh there was all kinds of food. The farmers
had stuff and they was trying to give it to somebody else, you know?
It was a real, real picnic, real get-together... wonderful.
S.R:
Could you describe the Amusement Park, the way it was then?
What rides they had, attractions.
(
R.B:
Well, it was a...cars used to go around, used to whip around...what
did they call them on the floor there... Crack the Whip. And there
was a, the thing that goes up and down, you know the Cyclone,
(IO)
�or something they call it... Roller Coaster. And the Merry-go-Round,
and there was a Fun House there too. And then there was a Hupity
Dumps. It went like this. You get up at the top and you sit down
and you slid down. Bumpity-Bumps they called it. You slide all
the way...it was all made smooth you know, it wouldn't hurt you
or nothing. And we all just could stay on there for hours. Then
later on they brought in the skating rink. You could rent the skates
and skate in the skating rink.
S.R:
Ice skates or roller skates?
R.B:
Roller Skates.
S.R:
Oh, the one that's across from the Amusement Park right now,
or was it in the Amusement Park itself then?
R.B:
It was in the Amusement Park itself. I think it was about where
the dance hall is now, if I remember right. You know where the
dance hall is now at Crystal Beach?
S.R:
Could you describe the dance Hall?
R.B:
Yes I remember. .! never danced but I can remember looking into
.
it. I remember hearing the music. I can't tell you too much about
it. I know there was a place where you stand along the edges and
watch them dancers in there. It was kind of roped off like a railing
all the way around. You could stand here and here and here and
there was dancing in the centre. The orchestra set up, well they
had...
S.R:
Did any famous orchestras go there? Would you know that, or was
it just local bands?
R.B:
I think so, but not dancing I...it's not in my memory. See, I never
did dance. When we danced all we ever did was square dancing.
S.R:
On those farmers picnics?
S.R:
Do you remember the riot in 1969 at Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I remember hearing of it.
S.R:
But you don't know what it involved or what happened or anything?
R.B:
Well I think it involved mostly Americans wasn't it? Blacks and
whites from Buffalo. I'm not absolutely sure of that, but I think
that's it. I don't think there were Canadians involved in that as
I know of.
S.R:
Do you know why it started at all? Do you remember?
R.B:
The difference between the blacks and whites. Whatever their
differences was I don't know.
(11)
�S.R:
(
Do you know what the Sand Quarry was?
R.B:
The Sand Quarry, no. Oh, where they used to go swimming. They
used to go swimming in there.
S.R:
The Ontario Hotel, did you ever visit there?
R.B:
The Ontario Hotel. I can't remember.
S.R:
Do you remember anything about Ridge Dairy in Crystal Beach?
R.B:
Ah, yeah, I don't know whether it's in the same place as it is now.
I can't remember much about it. I remember going by it.
S.R:
Did the people from Fort Erie have very much to do with the people
from Ridgeway or Stevensville or Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I'd say no most of the time. Not unless it happened to be plumbers
or carpenters or someone that went back and forth like that. Being
on the railway, and most of the people I worked with, my friends
worked on the railway. They were all here. But a few come in
from the farm, but not too many.
S.R:
So there were no reasons why, political type reasons or anything,
why you didn't?
R.B:
Oh, no, no, no ... there was no hard feelings or anything like that.
It was generally, generally the whole area voted for the same person
(
anyway. See Crystal Beach and Ridgeway and everything else vote
for the same peole, don't they?
Well they used to be way back...ther:e
used to be a lawyer in Welland by the name of German. He was
elected the...continuous, all the time. He was always...but he was
Liberal. A fellow by the name of Willson used to sell Ford cars
in Ridgeway. He... I voted...he was a Conservative. I voted for
him once.
S.R:
Was that when it was mayor or what would there... ?
R.B:
Back in the 20's. Ridgeway at that time, I think it was called... Bertie
Township had their own police force then, you know, and Fort Erie had
their own police force. And what happened, see Ridgeway was a town
of their own... it wasn't the Fort Erie now. Stevensville was a town of
their own. Well they never had sewers there or anything else, so then
they became Bertie Township. They had their own police force. So when
the Fort Erie... it was declared Fort Erie1they repainted all the police cars.
A short time afterwards, I can't remember exactly, very short, they became
Regional and they repainted them again. The policemen was all Regional
Policemen...not the Fort Erie or Ridgeway or, they're just Regional now...all
the police force.
(12)
�S.R:
(
Do you remember the Peg-Leg Railroad going into Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I can't say I do. I worked on the Paddy Miles train. Paddy Miles
used to know all the Niagara Branch. He used to run right into
Niagara-on-the-Lake. There used to be a train run every day.
S.R:
It came to Fort Erie?
R.B:
It come to Fort Erie and it used to come out...and we used to tend
to the engine, because the engines had to be attended at the end
of the trip all the time.
S.R:
There were two railroad yards in Fort Erie. What railroad yard
would it have come to then?
R.B:
It come to the New York Central yard. Michigan Central at the
time. See that name changes over the years. That was Michigan
Central before it was New York Central.
S. R:
What yard ... where was it located?
R.B:
Right up here at the end of Phipps Street. You wouldn't remember.
You know that factory up at the end of Phipps Street, Graham
Manufacturing, well there was a round house there. I worked there
and
(
I
just lived across the road from it. I'd be to work in one minute.
It was what you call a round house. You know what a round house
is? That's what they keep locomotives in. Then when you went
into the round house, it was round like this, there was tracks in
for each engine. You come onto a turntable. A turntable was big
enough to hold the engines in. They had an electric motor and
you'd push it around until it come to the track you wanted to put
it onto. Why you put it into the round house? , ,It had pits underneath
between the tracks so the machines could get underneath and repair
what was underneath. They couldn't do it when they were on the
tracks down like that.
S. R:
What year did you start working on the railroad?
R.B:
1923. Oh I started on the CN in 1920.
S. R:
Was the CN in the same place?
R.B:
The CN, I worked in the yard office and I was call boy and then
I got to be a checker.
S. R:
The CN was in this place you were talking about with the round
house?
(
R.B:
No, no. Later on the round house was on... CN I worked at the yard
office. See that was in the checking department. Where they check
the cars. The round house was on Michigan Central. In 1923 I started
there.
(13)
�S.R:
(
Where was the CN yard?
R.B:
Where it is now. They had a round house too. They tore it down
on account of the diesels.
S.R:
Oh, so the CN was in the Amigari area?
R.B:
Yeah, oh yeah. Now...see the diesel engines, when the diesel engines
.
came in 1944.. by the way,a steam engine had to be renewed at
the end of each trip. You had to clean the fire, get the clinkers
out of it, you had to load the tank with coal, machines had to go
around and grease all of the rods.. .where a diesel is roller bearing.
They can go hundreds and hundreds of miles with nothing done to
them. But they laid off hundreds of men. That's what done away
with us. They closed the shop completely on account of the diesels.
S.R:
Just like computers are doing now?
R.B:
That's right, that's right. You explained it.
S.R:
How many tracks were there when you got started? The difference
between when you started and then when expansion came.
R.B:
Well, our...we always had double tracks, east bound and west bound.
On the trains you'd keep going. But the Grand Trunk which is CNR
they used to have single tracks. It means, with a single track, that
(
you have to have what they call sidings. If a train's going that
way and one's coming this way, he goes in the sidings to let it by.
That makes it longer going over the road. But the New York Central
used to call it the Americas Speedway because it run from Detroit
to Saint Thomas to Fort Erie. And you have divisions. From Fort
Erie to Saint Thomas in one division and Saint Thomas to Windsor
in another division. There's a tunnel underneath the river at Windsor
where they meet the train tunnel. It's been there for years. I don't
know when it was built. So the reasons why you had divisions is
this. There's about a hundred and sixteen miles from here to Saint
Thomas by railway, and about a hundred and eighteen from Saint
Thomas to Windsor. Well, an engineer, or fireman, or brakemen
working on a train, a hundred miles is eight hours pay.
S.R:
Did it take eight hours?
R.B:
No. If you was on a passenger train you could be over there in
a couple of hours and you got eight hours pay. And when they went
from here they got a hundred and sixteen miles, so they got sixteen
into a hundred. More than a days pay, you see? Well they went
up and back in the same day so they used to run by mileage and
(14)
�the freightmen was allowed thirty-eight hundred miles a month
and a passenger forty-six.
(
Well if you go... if you go from here to
Windsor and back in the same day, you had it four times.
four days in.
You had
So, they used to do ... when their time was in they'd
take the rest of the month off.
be paid once a month.
But they found out... they used to
What you earned from the first to the fifteenth,
you got on the twenty-third, and what you earned from the fifteenth
to the last of the month, you was paid on the nineth... so the nineth
and twenty-third was paydays.
So they found that by getting their
time in the first of the month, and taking off the end of the month,
the second pay they had nothing coming.
So what they did was,
they would layoff a few days to keep that down so halfs would be
alright.
We always had a spareboard ... four or five men on the spareboard.
You call them off when they're laid off.
down.
See they keep their mileage
See, if they're allowed thirty-eight hundred, you try to get
nineteen hundred each half.
In the first half of the month if you
had nineteen hundred by the tenth, you'd take five days off.
that's the way they done it.
See,
But see, well anyway, when they started
the five days a week... see I worked seven days a week up until
(
1954... when
they started at five days a week, why they gave us six days pay
for five.
We lost one days pay.
Well all the fellows that worked
in the yard though... you see on the yard you had regular shifts, four
to twelve, twelve to eight, and eight to four.
eight hours.
That's all they got,
But the fellows that was in the yard, when they come
to five days a week, all went back on the main line where they got
this mileage I was telling you about, thirty-eight hundred miles
a month.
See, the money was higher on the line but sometimes
you were away from home.
See that's why they got a boarding house
down there by the CNR Station: You know where the boarding house
is there?
Well that's for main line.
See, when they come in from
Saint Thomas well they go to bed and have a nice rest before they
go out the next day.
S.R:
R.B:
Yeah.
S.R:
(
It's on Lewis Street?
Did the CN help at all during the Depression?
off?
Were people laid
Did they help out any of the workers?
R.B:
During the Depression the bosses were terrible.
S.R:
Why, and what do you mean?
(15 )
�R.B:
Well, if they give you a bawling out, which we say raise hell with
us, a bawling out for something that you know damn well you didn't
do, you know what our boss used to say to us?
work here.
You don't have to
There's a sidewalk over there.
S.R:
They knew you had to have that job to make sure
R.B:
If you had a wife and family at home what did you do?
to take it.
• • •
You had
You stood there with your fist behind your back.
of the bosses was a lot different.
Some
There was some good ones too.
But the ones that was rotten, was really rotten.
The unions today,
I'm sore at the unions today, but there's one good thing they did,
they stopped a lot of that.
There used to be a lot of discrimination.
S.R:
When did the unions come in?
R.B:
Well, I don't know.
They come in gradually.
the railway it was later.
(
• • •
I was what you call a
Now, do you know what a hostler is?
S.R:
No.
R.B:
Alright, I'm going to go back for you now.
Years ago when the people
had horses and the lady was out riding, when she come back in, she
turned the horse over to the stable hand, and he looked after the
horse and put it away.
locomotives.
That's what a hostler is.
But I did it with
When a locomotive come into the round house, the
engineer got off, he was done.
I run that locomotive up to the coal
dock for the labourers to put coal into it.
See on the railway I was
an engineer inside the round house, but not on the main line.
run that down to the
cleaned the fires.
• ..
• • •
• • •
a cinder pit.
underneath the fire box there was a pit and
you opened a thing and all the ashes went down in there.
cleaned that fire and did all
•.•
And they
because after all, they burned maybe
twenty ton of coal between here and Saint Thomas.
a lot of ashes down in that ash pan.
the fire.
I would
what they called the cinder pit, where they
The ashes went down into a pit
Because they had the
There'd be
You let it out and you cleaned
I didn't do that, the labourers did that, but I run the engines
down for it.
on
Then later on the machinists
See, there are different trades that have different unions.
There's a machinist union, then there was
hostler.
• • •
When I started on the railway there was
no unions for us at the round house at all.
got one.
They come in gradually
I run the engines down to the train table and we'd turn
it around, put it in the round house, and the machinists and boiler
makers would look after it.
They'd go underneath and he'd grease
(16)
�it and oil it.
(
Then when you backed the engine out of the turn table,
you had to turn the turn table out so it was headed west because
it would be headed east coming in.
That's why you had
and I'd
•••
bring them out and I'd have to go around a little channel to a little
side track and get it ready for the engineers.
turn table.
But I'd get it on the
See the unions wouldn't let me do the work, that was
labourers work.
But I'd set up an engine while he was running around.
Well I had a good job but
then when the diesel come oh
•••
had to do was back them up for them to put sand in.
sand
all they
.•.
Why they have
because the wheels could slip and they have a pipe that goes
•••
down, they turn the air on and it blows a little sand, it gives you
grit see.
And then they back them up for fuel oil.
the fuel oil into them.
And they put
That's all there is to it.
S.R:
Do you remember your bosses, what their names were?
R.B:
Wilfred Vye was one.
Roy Grice.
In
1923
The first boss I remember was a fellow called
that was, I remember him.
Then there was
Bert Olderieve during the depression years, I think he's got a son
in town here now.
(
Wilfred Vye was night foreman.
We had a fellow... then
later on the car department had their own foreman.
the name of Brindley.
A fellow by
Well later on they joined together and Mr.
Brindley was in charge of the car department and the locomotive
department, which we was both.
around town.
There's an old Wayne Brindley
Maybe you know some of them.
S.R:
What were derailment teams?
R.B:
Well, when the engine went off the track, why they
in the round house.
we had a derrick
•.•
It laid there... it had no fire or steam in it.
But as soon as we got work we put a fire into it to get steam.
It
had a big end on it, and you run your derrick out, a locomotive would
hook onto it and take it out where it was and lift it up.
used to run the derrick before he become foreman.
that?
Wilfred
Did he tell you
Yeah, he used to and I used to fire it for him.
S.R:
Oh, get it all going so you could take off.
R.B:
Yeah, so you could take off.
It was used so seldom but it laid around.
They put it in a place where it was stored, but ready in case, you
know in case they wanted it again.
(
And coal and everything in case,
so you could start a fire on it as soon as you got word, then you
could go out.
S.R:
You mentioned before that you were either a customs officer or
a railway man.
(17)
�R.B:
(
When I got laid off the railway in
of the truck companies.
I got a job working for one
1960
Which one was it now?
And I went up working
for the trucking company working at the Peace Bridge.
a lot of people don't know.
Here's what
All the freight that comes through,
a lot of it's got to be examined, and there has to be invoices with
it, and there's duties got to be paid.
they pay the duty.
That's what the brokers do,
Well, everybody thinks of a customs officer
as a man as you go through with your cars to the bridge.
there is a lot of them,
Which
but there's a lot of them back in there.
They've got to watch these trucks when they're unloaded and what's
on them, because there's stuff that could be smuggled in.
to
when I worked in the car
•••
We used
we'd take it all off and put it all
•••
on, on what they call the dock
pulled all those goods off, and what
•..
they had invoices in and Customs would say what they want.
We'd
take it up to the inspector and he'd open it up and look to see what
it was.
They wouldn't do everything but they spot checked.
there was an awful lot of comp
trucking companies.
(
trucks.
Well
they were companies back in there,
•••
You've seen them on the road, the different
And there's a lot of customs
There was appraisers too.
a lot of jobs back in there.
•••
Sometimes when things come through
they appraised the rate on it you see.
A lot of people don't know
that the duty must be paid directly, the brokers do.
They pay the
duty, the brokers, then the company pays the brokers.
paid whem it goes through.
The duty's
Now some stuff goes through in bond.
When it goes through in bond we don't do nothing wilh it.
It's got
a seal on it and wherever it goes there's got to be a customs officer.
If it's going someplace where there's no customs office
places don't have a customs officer
well most
•••
it's got to be cleared here.
•••
Well sometimes when the freight comes through, the invoices
don't know what happens
isn't there.
•••
They just put the
there until the invoices come through.
back in for the customs officers.
•••
!
it's kept
•••
See there's a lot of work
Do you know the customs officer
works back in the railway yards too for stuff going through
?
Oh
yeah.
S.R:
(
What do they do in the railway yard?
R.B:
Well they go and
they, one of them opens up the cars and inspects
•••
stuff if it's being imported or exported.
Oh yeah, it's a big job.
There's much more.
Maise's brother was a customs
No,my son-in-law
(18)
.••
�officer and he's pensioned off today.
He was in Toronto.
He worked
down here at the Peace Bridge and he worked at the head office
in Toronto.
My son-in-law was a customs officer, my daughters'
husband, and he worked at Fort Erie.
got another job.
Then he moved to St. Catharines
He had to go up to the ships going through the
canal and he had to go on the ships to do up the stuff
•••
Well then
he got a higher job and he went to London, and he used to go to
the airport out there to do their stuff up.
Now, he's in the head
office in... I don't know exactly what he does
he's in Hamilton.
•••
There's an awful lot of jobs for customs that people just don't know
about.
They just see them when they're going through the Peace
Bridge or at the Niagara Falls Bridge.
people.
There's lots of work for those
But you know, did you know that there's an awful lot of
lady customs officers today?
Did you see some of them come to
the bridge.
S.R:
I see in summertime they hire the college students.
R.B:
Now that's an ideal
job for a lady.
{
well there's regular ones now.
•••
I believe in that because it's
••.
That's an ideal
but I don't believe
in ladies out there picking, or shovelling or working on the railway,doing
that.
Customs officers they could be because it's not manual labour,
they've just got to use this...
S.R:
Your head, yeah.
R.B:
That's alright for a lady to do that.
there's a lot of background.
Oh yeah, customs officers,
They have a lot to do.
A lot of people
don't realize how much they've got to do.
S.R:
When talking of customs you mentioned about smuggling.
Do you
remember any of the goings on with smuggling back during the rum
running days?
R.B:
Yes, I remember quite well.
I remember the cars would come down,
railway cars full of beer, they'd come down there at the foot of
Courtwright Street.
There was a railway track just this side of
the International Bridge which crossed into the docks there, and
with a boxcar full of beer they'd load up the boats that's consigned
to Cuba
load the boats and they'd be back the next morning empty.
•••
They had been to Cuba off the Niagara River.
(
S.R:
Do you remember anything else smuggled other than alcohol?
R.B:
Oh yeah, there was quite a bit about it.
watch them, see.
We used to go down and
We used to watch the coast guards
(19)
•.•
! don't know.
he
•••
�I hate to say anything
(
they used to come out and shine that big
•••
light and go way down the river and all the boats would take off
full of beer.
S.R:
Oh, they'd wait until the coast guards were out of sight then?
R.B:
No.
That was a signal as far as I was concerned.
They were unloading
and back again before he come back up the river again.
there for hours watching it.
You figure, well
•••
We'd sit
! don't know if it
was a coincidence, unless they knew he'd be gone that long, I don't
know.
But it looked...
S.R:
Too much of a coincidence.
R.B:
It was suspicious anyway.
S.R:
Was there much violence involved with it?
R.B:
No not
S.R:
With the smuggling
••.
no there wasn't much violence like there is now.
••.
as far as the local police and the people doing
their duty trying to stop it?
R.B:
Well, I know fellows that used to bring loads from St. Catharines.
There's a brewery in St. Catharines called Taylor and Bates.
not sure if it was St. Catharines or Welland.
(
I'm
And they used to go
down and get a load in the back end of their car and bring it down
here, and they'd get twenty-five dollars for that.
were breaking the law.
Oh yeah, they
Some got caught and some didn't.
S.R:
What happened if they got caught?
R.B:
Oh, they got fined.
I never heard tell of anybody going to jail.
I don't remember what the fine was.
They made lots of money,
they could afford the fine.
S.R:
Did you hear anything about the Chinese people being smuggled?
R.B:
Yes, way back
..•
I'm not going to name the family but there was
a famous family, been around here for years.
name too.
I've no doubt you have.
Chinamen to
You've heard the
They used to smuggle
take
•••
and I know of a case, my father told me about this,
•••
because he remembered.
They rode up the river and they, the coast
guard or something would come along, I forget what they called
them in them days, they'd just dump them.
They all drowned.
S.R:
R.B:
{
Why didn't they swim?
Well, maybe they couldn't swim in the river or something, I don't
know.
Did they do something to make them drown?
But that river's pretty swift you know even good swimmers
drown. -Then another case where they used to take them over and
put them on the breakwall.
Well the breakwall over there, you still
(20)
�got to get through that water. You know another thing they used
to do in the later years? You know the basket that goes over the
Whirlpool in Niagara Falls? (they'd say) Go on that. Over on the
other side is the United States. They were still in Canada see.
They don't know. Because one time that used to get on both sides.
Now you can only get on one, this side. You used to be able to get
on the far side too as well.
S.R:
Oh, so people used to come over and bring stuff?
R.B:
No. It was all in Canada. See you go across the Whirlpool in that
basket, that's still Canada here. It's still Canada there. But that
round circle fools them...
S.R:
Oh, now I understand what you said, yeah. We were talking about
Crystal Beach before, could you compare Crystal Beach to Erie
Beach?
R.B:
No. I liked Erie Beach very much. That dance hall they used to
have there, and I never danced but I used to go and watch. It was
all right over the water. It was wonderful then. We used to, we
used to ...they had these four dolls and they're set up on a platform.
You had to knock them off with three balls. The Jewish people
run it. We had a fellow...and you got a box of chocolates. A pound
box in them days, or course chocolate was dear. And we had a guy
who was a baseball pitcher, he could knock them down. And there's
this little lady that used to say, oh please don't come play anymore.
Because you know, she says, you're breaking me. He'd go over there
and get a couple then he would, he would be... Oh yeah we like this
beachreal well. There was a little train that used to run to it. It
run from the ferry.
S.R:
Do you remember the name?
R.B:
They used to call it the Snake Hill and something. The ferry dock
used to be there. You know the ferry dock about...you know where
Agrette's Store is? On that side of the boulevard up.
S.R:
At the south end on the boulevard?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah. Well that's about where the dock was. But if you got
a high wind and the water got held up in the lake, the river would
lower and the boat couldn't dock. But that only happened on a rare
occasion. When we used to go...we used to go from one country
to the other for a nickle. And I was telling one of the old timers...what's
his name now, Ken Minor. He's about eighty-four, you can get information
(21)
�for him. I told him about going from one country to the other for
a nickle. He says, I can remember back farther than you. He said,
(
you used to get two tickets for a nickle. Yeah, Ken Minor, yeah.
S . R:
You said you like the dance hall, could you describe it?
R.B:
Yes, it...the dance hall was up above. It was over the water. Down
below was a hot dog stand and ice cream, different stuff like that.
You'd get it all in the other platforms. There used to be some...not
dancing I didn't bother with too much but it was a nice looking building.
S.R:
Was there anything else other than the big dance hall? What other
attractions were there?
R.B:
Well, there was Bumpity- Bumps and the Blue Streaks and the roller
skating and...oh what was that? In the boat when you went through
the tunnel and you went through a dark part. That's where you took
your girlfriend and you'd get a kiss when you got to it. I think they
called it the Tunnel Of Love. In them days that was all they kissed.
S.R:
And they had an olympic size pool?
R.B:
They had the largest, outdoor, freshwater pool in the world at that
time. On this side of the dance hall here. Oh yeah, the other side,
(
yeah.
S . R:
They had a track in a field or stadium, do you remember any events
that took place there? Did any famous people come?
R.B:
I can't remember anybody. I remember the car...my father worked
on the railway then, although he was a carpenter, and they used
to have a union. They used to have a picnic every year and they
used to have it at Erie Beach. Everybody took their own food, you
know, baskets and things like I told ya. Then they had races for
all the children. They'd have a thirty yard races. It was nothing,
just made up between ya's, you know. It wasn't a regular thing you
know, the unions did that in the car shop. That was going every
day for somebody. Oh yeah, there'd be different unions there. People
don't have much money, but they had a good time, they made a
good time. Everybody brought baskets of food, you always had food.
And everybody...if you didn't have much, somebody else had too
much...come on we don't want to take all this home.
S . R:
(
Everybody was willing to share, not like nowadays.
R.B:
Do you know we used to...I had an uncle killed on a motorcycle in
'18 or '19, somewhere.. . 1917, and they lived right down on the corner
of Dufferin Street and Robinson. There was no houses up this way,
(22)
�it was the last house. That house still sits there. There was so
(
much food come in from neighbours and stuff, she had to find a
place to give it to somebody else. We couldn't use it. They don't
do that anymore now... from neighbours and everybody. Of course,
don't forget, in them days ...this is, I don't like this subject but... he
wasn't taken to the funeral parlour, he was in a casket in your own
home, right in your front room. And you always used to have somebody
sit up with them every night, all night and it was three or four days
before he was bur ied. We always had somebody in the family sit
with them all night. You know why? I hate to get on this subject... rats ...dead
body. You see the houses didn't have basements in. I can remember
my grandmother was in our front room, wasn't she ? 1925 that was,
yeah. We lived on Jarvis Street. You don't know what a wonderful
world you have today.
S.R:
We have luxury compared to that.
R.B:
But ah, you know what I mean, we didn't know any different. We
were happy. In fact, I think we were happier than most people are
now because we didn't know... because we don't know about these
(
things. We played lots of games.
S.R:
What kind of games did you play?
R.B:
Snakes and Ladders, Run Sheep Run, Tap The Icebox. In Run Sheep
Run you choose up sides, and then maybe, it' s according to how
many you got. Say we got twelve, six on this side and six on that
side and you have a leader. Each one elects a leader. He takes
his fellows out and he hides them and you come and take your six
and go and find them. And when you're looking for them ...now this
place where you start is call your goal. You generally use a telegraph
pole or something like that. He would say ... the opposite leader
that hid his men would come back and you had to go and search
and he'd go with you. Well, when he figured he was far enough away,
that his men was closer, he'd holler Run Sheep Run, and if they
got back first he lost.
S.R:
Something like Hide And Go Seek is today?
R.B:
Yeah, Hide And Seek. Tap The Icebox, you remember that, you
played that. Well that's very much like Hide And Go Seek, only
(
somebody hid their eyes on a pole... always a pole. They'd tap you
on the back and you had to turn around and guess who it was. If
you guessed, well then they had to take a turn, and if you didn't
(23)
�guess everybody went and hid. We used to play Palm Palm Pull
(
Away. I bet you never heard tell of that. All right, ya choose up
sides, and somebody got on each side of. .. say a lawn or a small park,
a small place. This side one gang, and one gang on this side and
there'd be so many guys in the centre. You had to run across like
that without them touching ya. You'd wait for somebody to run
and they'd run right through. Then you got on that side and whoever
had the most guys on the opposite side they started out from won.
We used to play it at school...recess. And you played tag I'm sure.
Oh yeah, we ... you had... well we never used to... see all the parcels
you got from the store in them days wasn't done like now, they were
done up in strings. Nothing come, your sugar was all in bags and
he'd put it in a smaller thing and do it up with string. See he didn't
have it up on the shelves and it didn't come like it does now. And
even if you got crackers, they come and take them and put them
in your bag. And everything was. . . save that string and we used
to wind it and make a ball out of it, then wrap tape around it. That's
what we used to play ball out in the field there with when we were
(
kids.
S.R:
Oh, a ball for catch or playing stickball or something like that?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah, and they used to play football over there in this field.
Right over here. And right over here at this store, right up at this
little store on the corner was a garage.
S.R:
Simpson's Store?
R.B:
Yeah, this little store right here, Simpson's. This little store here,
there was nothing... there was nothing over in that field, and we
used to play ball over there, and he used to see us playing ball... and
that's the picture Wilfred Vye showed you. That's where we used
to play. That's where that picture was taken, right across from
there. And anyways, he seen all these people around, and he thought,
gee, I'll get pop in. And he started selling a lot of pop.... you know
all those people over there in the hot weather. Then pretty soon
he had a few groceries on the shelf. It gradually got to be a store,
gradually over the years.
S.R:
(
Oh, so that's how it became a store then?
R.B:
That's how it began. It was a gasoline station when it first started.
S.R:
You mentioned before about the ferries, why did people go to Buffalo
so much? Why didn't they just buy their stuff here or have their
(24)
�entertainment here?
(
R.B:
Well, you don't get the entertainment in a small town you get in
a big city, you don't have the facilities.
a lot to go to the show.
We used to go over there
I can remember when there was no show
in Fort Erie in my time, when we used to go over on a little car.
It used to go across this bridge . . . there was no Peace Bridge.
called it the Dummy.
They
You've heard that expression about it before.
It had seats into it and there was a customs officer rode it with
me on the way over so it wouldn't hold it up .
You went down a
few steps. . . we called that Black Rock over there . . . and there was
two shows, there was the Amherst and the Jubilee.
on Sunday too.
They were open
We used to go over there to go to the show.
there used to be two
•
.
Then
There was a couple big stores over there.
There was Davis's and AB's, I think.
After the Peace Bridge went
up them stores went out of business.
Do you know why?
No business.
And if you wanted to go up into the city you got a street car up.
S.R:
Oh, one of the electric powered street cars?
R.B:
Yep .
(
With the overhead thing you know.
And they used to run one
up Niagara Street if you wanted to go up town.
But we didn't go
up to the city that often.
S.R:
Could you describe the dummy a little bit more?
R.B:
Well, it looked like a passenger car but one end of it had the motor
and the engineer and the fireman into it . . . electric .
get in that part.
You couldn't
And the other part had, like a bus, seats along
each side .. . double seats .. . wider than a bus because the seats was
double, two could sit in.
There was several, quite a few of them.
On a saturday night, you know, you used to have to watch the drunks
that would come from over there.
Booze and all that was out.
And another thing we used to do . .. my father used to go over to get
his beer . .. fish fries was free.
He'd take all us kids, and us kids didn't
drink any beer.
There was five of us and my mother, she didn't
drink any beer .
He only paid about a nickle for his beer and you
got fish.
You didn't have fish and chips in them days, you had fish
and potato salad, and it was free . . . we'd all have our fish and chips .
They used to have a free lunch counter in the bars in Buffalo.
(
another thing that they never had over here.
and meat and roast.
S.R:
They had sandwiches
All of you help yourself. .. free.
Just if you went in and bought a beer?
(25)
That's
�R.B:
(
Yeah.
That's before
' 20.
Then P rohibition came in.
I remember
taking Wilfred Vye, I guess I told you about this, taking his father
over.
My brother was in the Lafayette Hospital over there
was no hospital in Fort Erie.
in to get a beer
lunch counter
food.
• • •
• • •
•.•
there
I took Mr. Vye over and we stopped
he wasn't a heavy drinker.
We just had
• • •
this free
oh, he said, you must have, you can't have it free
I says it's free you know, help yourself
. • •
the
• ..
pretzels, big bowls
of pretzels.
S.R:
And you don't know why?
R.B:
No I wouldn't say that, I would say, you are comparing a village
with a city.
Was it just too cheap over here?
You can't compare them.
things like that.
See a village
don't have
. .•
See, Fort Erie was a village at one time.
Fort
Erie never had a mayor, Fort Erie had a reeve.
S.R:
Who was the first reeve that you remember?
R.B:
Mr. Hogue I think.
S.R:
Do you remember what year that would have been, approximately?
R.B:
I can't tell you for sure.
'15
(
to
' 20 .
Well,
1915-16,
or something
• • •
between
Hague's was an old family around here, you've heard
the name before I'm sure of that.
They had the
•.•
you know where
the Oddfellows Hall is on the corner of Jarvis and Central
flat building?
. • •
that
Well that was H ague's Store there, and I used to pull
a wagon around and deliver groceries for him every saturday... a
little wagon full of groceries
..•
just in the Fort Erie area.
S.R:
How much would you get for a saturday doing a little job like that?
R.B:
We used to get about a quarter.
That was Bridgeburg then.
didn't get much, as long as you got a little bit.
the Pratt and Lambert in
'19
When I started at
I got twelve dollars a week.
When
I started in the Pratt and Lambert in, the war was over, in
I think it was.
In
1920
. • •
was making twelve dollars a week.
$49.60
know, I quit
1919
a friend of mine came down and said, there's
a callboy job open and it pays a hundred dollars a month
it was
You
and I
Well it wasn't quite a hundred,
every payday and you got paid twice a month.
You
that job at noon and went and started at four o'clock
over there.
S.R:
That was on the railroad?
R.B:
Yeah.
S.R:
Why was it that the Grand Trunk paid so much more than the other
On the Grand Trunk
places?
(26)
�R.B:
They didn't pay more than the other places, Pratt and Lambert's
paid less than the other places.
(
That's what it was.
New York Central
paid more than the Grand Trunk did.
S.R:
The Grand Trunk is the CN now?
R.B:
Yeah, and the Grand Trunk
•.•
I guess he's in his nineties.
he worked on the CNR.
! got a fellow, a man down the road,
He was on the same job as I was on and
He was a hostler doing the same kind of
work but working for the CNR, which it was the Grand Trunk, and
this is in the later years, I was making five dollars a day more, doing
the same work working for an American railroad.
S.R:
You were making five dollars a day more than him?
R.B:
He was making sixteen something and I was making twenty-one
something.
That's the biggest salary I ever made.
And do you know
I only made about five thousand dollars once in my life.
fifty-two hundred in a year.
Erie and they go on strike.
a car.
(
And now It's the best money in Fort
And we got a home, but I never had
I was almost fifty before I had a car.
pay for our home.
I made
I walked to work to
It's paying off today though isn't it?
S.R:
Yes, the way the prices of them are today.
S.R:
Would you know what year the Peace Bridge was built or opened?
R.B:
1928
S.R:
Did they have anything special for the opening?
R.B:
Yeah, the Prince of W
•..
'29, ' 28.
ales was there and there was several people
from the States that was important too.
I forget who it was, and
they met right in the middle of the bridge like... to open it up.
S.R:
What kind of festivities did they have?
R.B:
Well, I was on down the river to see all the people lined up waiting
for them to come
.•.
they knew he was coming.
I didn't go up to
the bridge you see, but I guess they had quite a do up there you
know, speakers and things like that.
a do at the Peace Bridge.
But, yeah, there was quite
We were also there for the fiftieth anniversary.
S.R:
Could you describe that, the fiftieth anniversary?
R.B:
Greg Wilson spoke.
then?
He was chairman wasn't he, of the Bridge Committee
That's been a lot of.
did you realize that the Peace Bridge
••
cars come by than any other port between Canada and the United
States, and in Detroit and Windsor it's bigger than us?
More cars
cross this Peace Bridge than any place there is access between the
two countries.
(27)
more
• ..
�S.R:
(
Would you know any reason why?
R.B:
I don 't know why, ah, because they have to go through this way to
go to Toronto and
Could you hazzard a guess ?
..•
S.R:
Oh, to get to another major city?
R.B:
Majors cities ... Toronto.
S.R:
And we have the Race Track and Crystal Beach and
R.B:
Well , that keeps your Race Track going up here.
.•.
You know that
ninety percent is from the other side of the , across the river.
Have
you ever come across the Peace Bridge when the races was on?
Then you know what I mean.
S.R:
It's jammed.
S.R:
Is there anything else from way back when, that you can think of
that you'd like to add?
R.B:
Yes.
boy
I can think of.
my, on my grandfather's farm when I was a
••
•••
S.R:
Where would that be?
R.B:
At Ridgemount, seven miles out of town , near the graveyard at
Ridgemount , the farm was very close to it
(
dances in the winter.
we used to have square
•••
He used to come in what you call the hay
racker , a big rack , and he filled it all full of straw, and he'd take
all the people out.
There would be twenty-five or thirty people
on there all sitting in ' t,he straw with blankets , and they'd be singing
all the way out because there wasn't no music
the square dancing.
and they'd have
.••
We s quare danced quite a bit in the winter
becasue the farmers generally wasn 't busy in the winter.
generally got to feed his cattle.
over there in his house.
He's only
We used to have square dances
And this original coloured man, his name
was Lam Bright, the grandfather of all these people, played the
big bull-fiddle , and he was a great friend of my grandfathers , and
that's why my grandfather donated that property at the end there.
S.R:
Oh , and you said the original coloured man?
R.B:
The original coloured man , yes one of the originals.
their mother was a white woman.
a boy.
I remember her from when I was
So they're half and half like.
I can hear him yet with his kids.
But these Brights ,
Oh yeah, remember the old
They used to take use kids out ,
the mother and father would , they'd take us up and put us to bed.
But we could hear them dancing down below in the parlour.
S.R:
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
(28)
but
.••
�R.B:
(
Well, I told you about my father, he was born in
all said he was a year older than Canada.
and Canada became a country in
a year older than Canada.
father's parents
186 7 .
' 66,
didn't I?
They
Well, he was born in
1866,
He always said he was older,
His parents come from Edinbourgh, my
mother and father.
.••
S.R:
From where?
R.B:
Edinb urgh, Scotland.
mother's side.
See, the old ones ways back was from my
The Dennehower's we're talking about from
•.•
Browns come from Edinb urgh Scotland.
The
I've been in Edinb ·urgh
in the wartime.
S.R:
What was
•..
you said your father was born a year before Canada
became Canada
R.B:
a country.
•..
What was it before then?
Well it was Upper Canada and all that7but it joined as one in
186 6 .
See it was only a hundred years old.
You remember that, not too
long ago
I should say.
in
•••
196 6 ,
yeah.
But ah,
'67 ,
Yeah , well there
was Upper Canada and Lower Canada and all that.
Niagara-on-the-Lake was called Newark.
of Upper Canada.
(
See that's when
That was the capital
But I don't know too much about it.
S.R:
Is there anything you'd like to add in closing?
R.B:
Yeah.
My grandfather had a thrashing engine, and he used to do
thrashing for all the farmers in them days.
be mud.
All the roads used to
There happened to be rain, and when they went to one
farm they had to have eight or ten teams of horses pulling this big
iron machine out to get there.
When they would thrash it, the wheat
of each farmer, all the different farm women would come and cook.
And all the pies and cakes, oh boy, us little kids would go out there
and oh those good homemade pies.
Oh, really nice, yeah.
that's the way they lived in them days.
But they,
And my grandfather was,
they say the Germans is mean, but there was never a fencepost
crooked on that farm.
went
When you went through that little gate that
and went into the front of the house and left it open, oh he
••.
was stern.
But ah, no it's a, why I always remember my
see I never
.••
seen my father's father, I seen the grandma, I never seen the father.
I don't know what he looked like even.
And Maisie and I went up,
we were trying to look up the old farm, it's up near, you know a
(
place called York?
through there?
It's on that river.
What's that river that runs
It's on the Grand River.
tried to trace it, because
So we was up, but we just
do you know Bob Wilson ?
••.
(29)
He used to
�be a customs officer, he's retired, well he's a
(
father's sister's daughter.
up.
his mother was my
• ••
You know, we tried to look the family
So he's taking it from the other side but the Brown's can't go
too far because the great grandmother and great grandfather, they
both come from Edinb urgh, that's all I know about them.
that I don't know anything.
S.R:
Thank you for the interview Mr. Brown.
R.B:
And thank you very much, you've been very nice.
S.R:
Thank you.
(
(3 0)
Before
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Shelley RIcher
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Ross Brown
Location
The location of the interview.
Mr. Brown's home at 5 Jessie Street, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Brown, Ross
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Ross Brown's interview. He discusses such topics as:
Schools
Churches
North End
Fleet
Sports
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Railroad
Recreation
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
July 19, 1985
1980s
1985
churches
Crystal Beach amusement park
Fleet
Fort Erie
north end
Oral history
railroad
recreation
schools
sports
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/a605d72ed6dd48de676f46ea7861c66c.pdf
cd35cadd3b0b90fff358d0f6f3423ecf
PDF Text
Text
Beverly Branton interviewing Mr. Harry Bush at High Street Apartments.
(
It's May 22, 1985.
Mrs. Bush is also present. )
B.B.: Hello, Mr. Bush.
H.B.: Hi.
B.B.: Could you give me your date of birth please?
H.B.: Why sure, August 21st, 1913.
B� IE.: And your place of birth?
H.B.: Oh, lucky. London, England.
B.B.: And your occupation?
H.B.: Retired.
B.B.: Before you were retired?
H.B.: I worked on the Canadian National Railway as an administration
clerk, at the end.
You called it going up the ladder, you started
out as a call boy and you end up not knowing what you are doing.
B.B.: Okay, your place of birth was in London, Ont, or London, England
you said.
H.B.: Oh, yes.
B.B.: When did you come to Fort Erie?
H.B.: I think it would be 1923. I think I was seven years old at the time.
B.B.: What brought you to Fort Erie?
H.B.: Probably the economic insecurity of my parents in London, in England.
I think that was the reason, it was quite common in those days.
B.B.: What type of work did he receive, did he get in Fort Erie?
H.B.: Well, he was a, he worked on the New York Central Railroad _as an
engineer and then he went to the Canadian National as a.. well not
an engineer, I shouldn't have said that
••
a fireman, he started out
as a fireman, and that was when he went over to the Canadian National
and that was it.
B.B.: And when you moved to Fort Erie, where was your first home?
H.B.: On Crook Street, 7 5 Crook Street.
B.B.: Was Rio Vista Golf Course there then?
H.B.: Not in those days then. That was years later.
That was built by
Harry Oakes, the big shot wheel.
B.B.: Tell me about that.
H.B.: Well, I don't know that much about it except it use to be a cow pasture
where the Erie, the Rio Vista is now.
When we were kids we use
to get a nickel for lead driving the cows from Bowen, from the corner
of Crook and Bowen, and driving them through the town over to
1
�the corner of Emerick Avenue and Central Avenue, where a fella
named Clark use to live.
(
would be milked.
And the cows use to go in there and they
And the next day the milk was distributed from
a huge milk can and a dipper.
And you left your utensil out on the
veranda and they would spoon out the milk from the can and plop
it in the container left by the customer.
And I understand the milk
got pretty watery by the, one-third down the bottom of the can, up
from the bottom.
And you use to get a nickel for going down and
getting the cows and that.
They use to go home by themselves.
You'd just open the gate really and then they would go home.
And
then later on the pasture was abandoned as with the cattle and ..
B.B.: Do you know who owned that property?
H.B.: No, I wouldn't know. But I know it ended up in the, I think it was
called Welland Security's which I think was headed by Harry Oakes.
And it was converted into a golf course.
less abandoned.
And then it was more or
The golf course originally started, it was on both
sides of Bowen Road.
They had so many holes on one side of Bowen
Road and then so many on the other.
You'd have to walk through
the bush to get to the other section of the golf course.
(
a little path that you could follow out to the course.
think anybody ever caddied there.
There was
And I don't
They had a tournament from
Buffalo one time and we were rounded up to be caddies but we didn't
know any more about the course then
the grass was so long.
••
they lose so many balls because
And I don't think, it never was a success until
it was taken over by, I think by service clubs in Fort Erie.
I think
so, and maybe the, I don't know, anyway that's how it happened.
B.B.: Sir Harry Oakes, did he own the other property behind it?
H.B.: Well, you never really know who owns this property. It goes on mon ,
.•
behind the scenes I suppose. I think it was called Harry Oakes Park
at one time on, then eventually he wanted that property that faced
on to Niagara River.
The way I understand it he made a trade of
property where the Oakes Park is now on Central and Gilmore and
also ten thousand dollars to put a fence around it. I'm not sure of
any of this because we just read it in the papers and that's the way
it sticks with me up to now.
B.B.: Did he ever live in Fort Erie?
(
H.B.: No, no. He lived in Niagara Falls. He had a big home down there,
2
�the Oakes Estate.
B.B.: So he didn't have a summer home in Fort Erie?
(
H.B.: Well, I, not in Fort Erie, I always thought he did in Niagara Falls.
B.B.: So then from Crook Street, where did you move?
H.B.: To Brock Street, 308 Brock Street and that's where we, my brother
and my sister and my parents lived forever, until we were married
and moved out.
And the house is still there of course.
B.B.: You must have seen that area change quite a bit.
H.B.: No, not a great deal. In fact, you can run down and a lot of the kids
are still around who lived there.
There was Mary Vye, who's now
Mary Vye, she was Mary Baine then.
And Margaret Gull, who was
Margaret Baine then; they lived next to us and they are both alive.
And then there was Ruth and Ross Hoffman and Ruth Hoffman is
still, her name is Sinclair, she still lives in Fort Erie.
And there
was Charlie and Theodore Collier lived next to them, and Charlie
just died fairly recently, in the last three or four years. I don't know
about Theda, that was his sister.
And then there was Bert Cunliffe
and his brother Benny who was killed in the war.
who is still alive as far as I know.
(
And Courtland
And then there was Elizabeth.
I understand that they are all alive as far as I, outside of Benny their
all alive.
And let's see, who else lived on the street..the Bernettes,
I think, let's see, Ethel just died and Jessie is still alive, Jessie I
don'tknow what her married name is, she's been married a couple
of times.
And there are quite a few other ones still alive, that lived
on, just on little Brock Street.
B.B.: Where did you attend public school?
H.B.: At Phipp, Rose Seaton. I think in those days they called it Phipp
Street Public School.
B.B.: How has that changed?
H.B.: Well, of course it's kno
eked down to oblivion now.
Somewhere
I have a post card of the old original school but I'll never find it
unless we
there.
••
And it's all changed, there was a great built while I was
And I think my name was put in the cornerstone among with
everybody others, else others.
When they knocked the place down
we were suppose to retrieve these names and see how successful
we had been and the impact we had on the world.
what did happen to them, maybe
••
But I never knew
they were stuck away in the corner,
all the pupils in the school at the time of the renovation are suppos e
to be put in the cornerstone we were told and we would wait until
3
�we could tell each other how we set the world on fire.
We have
a couple of pyromaniacs in the community, they set the world on
(
fire in their own way.
B.B.: So what was the school system like at that time?
H.B.: Well, it was heavy, it was heavy on discipline. And some idiot built
a sled or rather a slide behind the school, which you could walk up
these steps, steep steps carrying your sleigh and then you'd bellyÂ
flop down the incline.
And then someone said the women, the girls
were to use it in the morning recess and the boys were to use it
in the afternoon recess. But a lot of the boys use to cheat and got,
you use to get a licking right out on the, on the slide.
Miss Seaton
use to come out and wag this blasted strap around and cross everyone
hi reach. And that was because you were invading the girls rights
by going on the slide when they were suppose to be using it.
And
I even got hit by Miss Dunn, Geneveve Dunn because I didn't write
very well and I thought that was, after seeing doctors write, I thought
that was a desired accomplishment.
heavy on discipline.
They use to, teachers would grab you by the
ear and twist it around .
(
ear ever went off.
Well, anyway they were very
I don't know how they did it because nobodies
You know if you did it to your own kids you'd
have the world on your back.
Anyway it was fun, we survived.
B.B.: What did you do for entertainment in the north end?
H.B.: What we did was our own. We had our own ball teams, football teams
and we use to play lacrosse.
That was a good game because if didn't
like anybody you could pretend you're reaching for the ball and you'd
crack them on the head with this lacrosse stick.
And it was a very
primitive game, I think some Indians from Brantford introduced it.
And
it didn't last very long, they just ran out of players, you know, everybody
ended up a victim.
B.B.: Where would you play it?
H.B.: On the school yard, everything was on the school yard in those days.
That was the central point, we use to play out there 'til dark.
The
adventerous ones whose parents were too lenient they played into
the dark, just like they do now I think.
B.B.: Were there any other parks at that time in the north end?
H.B.: Sure, there was one down on, oh, they were all over the place. I
(
mean like primitive park where you just went out in the field and
4
�hit a ball around or kicked a ball in football.
corner of Crook Street and Brock Street.
(
There was one at the
And then there was one
right behind the school, McTavishE.'-s use to live there.
Oh, by the
way Doc McTavish was the only person I know of in Fort Erie that
became a professional boxer.
I saw him fighting in Buffalo once,
he fought a guy named Tony Sceleno..I think he was Irish, Mediterranean.
And ah, everybody, somebody always went in sports and now a days
hockey sports and then there were ah, let's see, we didn't have any
real big baseball players.
Isn't that funny, I was just going to tell
you about somebody that was in sports but it's gone now..okay.
B.B.: Do you remember a park being on Phipps Street for lawn bowling?
H.B.: Oh, yes that what the old Patterson Estate, I guess, at least that's
what we called it.
It's that place where they have dolls now, inanament
dolls.
03B.: They had a huge green at the side and oh, for years they lawn bowled.
H.B:
Ya, that was quite the thing.
We use to go down and watch them
play.
G.B.: The so called professionals, like the doctors and elderly people.
H.B.: Well, they were elderly people who use to throw"
(
these balls up
and down the lawn.
B.B.: Were there tennis courts in that area?
H.B.: Yes, there were some tennis courts came in right behind that, on
Phipps Street.
That was another block up, not another block but
another residence and there were tennis courts put up there.
But
I think these were all private, these were all private they weren't
community property.
G.B.:
I think they were community Harry, but you had to be somebody
to get in.
H.B.: I don't know. I mean they were financed by people themselves, you
didn't get grants that I ever heard of in those days.
You know you
wore, your brothers and you wore the same skates, ice skates, roller
skates, baseball gloves, bats, whatever, you..if there was five kids,
five kids used it. If you were the only kid like there was a few kids
that were the only ones so we use to.. Billy Mencke use to be a good
source of getting athletic equipment.
And he was more affluent
then the rest of us so if you needed a football or a baseball or something,
(
we use to get after him to get to his dad to buy it for him.
So he'd
get it and he never played himself and he'd let us use his purchased
5
�He was a very good kid, he was the most popular kid we had.
B.B.:
(
The place where the lawn bowling is, you called that Patterson's?
H.B.:
Well Frank Patterson, who was what they call a collector of customs
and he lived in that big red house as far as I know. It's where the
dolls are now.
G.B.:
And that's where the thing comes underneath, into the river, where
they use to bring the slaves up from the States into Canada for
freedom. It really is, you've seen that haven't you?
B.B.:
D o you remember any stories about that?
H.B.:
No.
You mean about smuggling? Nope I don't, that was before
my time.
B.B.:
Did that
H.B.:
I think so yes, yes it did. I don't know why but. .
B.B.:
Jarvis Street, how has that changed?
H.B.:
It hasn't changed that much except. Except, no it hasn't changed
use to be called Bertie Hall?
.
very much. It's very neat from the Boul evard right up to Crook
Street, I would say that Jarvis Street hasn't changed that much ..
same houses, same buildings. Oh, different people.
Oh sure, there're
different stores owned by different people but I think the buildings,
(
the main ones.
G.B.:
What about the fires, Rossburg's, down that end. Old Mrs. Tracey
and her fire, they, I mean they have changed.
B.B.:
What fires are these?
H.B.:
Well, Rossmans store burnt down and what use to be a Chinese Restaurant
there and, it's just about the same, different people, different stores;
B.B.:
What about the roadways?
H.B.:
Well they use to be cinder railroads, ah, cinder roads in those days.
And I don't know how we managed it because most of use to run
around in bare feet in the summertime, summer holidays. And we
usually got what we called a pair of running shoes and they would
last the summer. And you got one haircut after you got out of school
and they use to take off all your hair, and then when you went back
to school you got another hair cut and another pair of shoes .. and
you trotted off to school thinking you knew what you were up to.
B.B.:
H.B.:
f
Do you remember who the barber was at that point?
Well, yes it use to be Bill Heckman, was the barber in those days
and a guy named T. Butler. Andyou use to go in there for the news
and who won the races, and who won the prilte fight. It was all
6
�sports interest in those days, on a betting basis. People would bet
quarters and fifty cents and there'd be followers of you know certain
(
players. That's how it went. They use to have ball teams, you'd
follow big leagues. You'd go down, buy the Courier Express, and
sit there and read the race results, who raced that day and how
the ball game went the previous day. We depended a lot on newspapers
for news in those days. Radio was fairly primitive and of course
no T.V., fortunately.
B.B.:
You use to write stories for some newspapers.
H.B.:
Well, I did correspondence work, yes. Usually what they call columns,
human interest columns. You wrote about people. Like to me,
news is something that
has happened to somebody. By the way,
in case you didn't know there's only three reasons for writing: to
entertain, to inform and to influence. You've got to have one of
those for a motive or any of those three... What else did you ask
me?
B.B.:
You worked for the Fort Erie Times Review?
H.B.:
When you say worked, I wasn't, I submitted material on a weekly
basis, like I was always published and I use to write and go around
(
and do interviews, pick up news stories, human interest material.
And then I would submit it and it would come out under my by-line,
and I would be creator I guess I would be creator..
B.B.:
Can you recall any stories off hand that might give us some insight
into the history of Fort Erie.
H.B.:
No, but I could probably research it 'cause you've got a lot of files
still on hand of the material that I, ah...No, there's most, well not
most but many of the people that I wrote about are still alive. In
fact, Norma, Norma Ryan, is a tenant here, I did a story on her, she
was after a singing career at
tleinhan's
Music Hall. And I did a
story on her and I still have a copy of it, we were talking about
it not long ago. She lives in this building, she just lives down the
hall. That, I can't remember any thing that would be outstanding.
It was at the time because it involved people that were here and
part of it.
B.B.:
Do you see where the Fort Erie Times Review has gone through
a lot of changes?
(
H.B.:
Oh, sure it's I think more now, isn't it just a, well I suppose they
carry ads primarily, while they use to carry news primarily. I would
7
�suspect that was one difference . And they use to have a reporter,
and an editor and of course all the press group,and they did public
relations work and they were pretty active. There wasn't much
money in the game but there never, wasn't much money anywhere.
B.B.:
Who were the owners of the paper at that time?
H.B.:
Johnson. George, Ed Johnson was the last publisher and editor and
this, by this time they didn't have a, I don't think they had a regular
reporter. George, their son, and Ted, their son use to do the stories
and the editing, dividing the reporting work. But basically it was
just a small town newspaper which had high ethics grammatically.
Ed Johnson was a well known publisher, had a fetish on language
and you couldn't squeeze anything through that was ungrammatical.
At least it would be very unlikely that you would. He was, and it
was good course beyond, it was helpful.
B.B.:
Where were they located?
H.B.:
I think, Reno's, is there a place called R.:eno's on Jarvis Street, just
across the street from where Rossmans use to be. Is that Reno's?
Ya, well it is. !think it's right about where Rmos is now
.
(
B.B.:
Did you ever go swimming down at the river?
H.B.:
My mother wouldn't let me go in the water until I learned to swi m
and I never learned. Bu the rest of the family, and my family, all
swim like ducks, not me.
B.B.:
Do you remember when you first started at the C.N. Railroad?
H.B.:
Oh, sure, sure. Of course, you always remember that. I think it
was on the fifth of August that I started and I was sixteen on the
twenty-first of August, the same year. And I worked a couple of
years and then we were all laid off. Nobody worked. My first job
at that time was typing. I don't know where I learned typing, I guess
in high school. I guess that would be where I learned. And I was
doing typing and I was on the midnight to eight shift and I had never
stayed up after nine-thirty in my life. And it was really weird working
all night you know, sounds are different, everything is different,
different people are out. But you could walk around Fort Erie at
that time, any, anytime at the night and you'd find railroaders going
to work, coming home from work. And it was a terrific business
(
in those days. And the affluent people of those days were the engineers
and the conductors of the railroad. They ;}.})a� more money than
anybody. And it seems to me that the people who had the most
8
�money had the biggest families, so there must be some association
'
here somewhere. That's how it was.
B.B.:
So, Fort Erie was, or Bridgeburg at that time...
H.B.:
Well there some research can be done here. It wasn't always Bridge.. ,
Fort Erie, and it wasn't always Bridgeburg, it use to be Victoria.
And there's another name in there that I can't think of. I have it
somewhere but I haven't got it now. But if you reach somebody
older than me might be able to tell you what the name was.
B.B.:
When you moved here what was the name?
H.B.:
Bridgeburg.
B.B.:
And you would remember when it was am
H.B.:
Oh, sure.
B.B.:
Why do you think they amalgamated?
H.B.:
I don't really know. That would have been a topic that would be
algamated?
of no interest whatever at the time, I 'd be too young to be concerned,
itwas all after that. But I remember the deciding vote to be the
first mayor of the combination Fort Erie/ Bridgeburg was decided
by Bill Tait who was the Town Clerk. You're really supposte to
say Town Clark but you sound defective if you do that. And the
two who were, I think it was Holly, W. J. Holly, who was a merchant
on Niagara Boulevard and Harry Hall who was an active politician
in the Fort Erie Senior, he worked on the customs. And he and Holly,
I think the votes for the mayor were even and Bill Tait threw in
his vote for Holly. That was, Hall always said he was the first mayor
of Fort Erie/ Bridgeburg combination because he was the mayor
of Bridgeburg at the time which was before the actual mayor took
over, office,a month later. But the first really elected mayor was
Holly. There was always a little contention about who actually
was the first mayor. I don't think very many people would care
much about it today.
B .B.:
RB.:
What about Amigari?
I didn't know too much about Amigari, that was an isolated section ...
that had it's own ethnic group. And you saw them, and they were around
but they were, some of them are still alive, I mean the same group.
It was over near the railroad, you know where it is. But it just seemed
to be a group by itself. The only time you met anybody from another
group was if you went to a ballgame and everybody was there and
9
�other than that you kept to your own area fairly well.
B.B.:
(
What parks would the ballgames be held at?
H.B.:
Well, the first ball games that I was interested in were played up
on Phipps Street, I think it was Phipps Street, on the corner of Phipps
Street and Crook on the south side. And there was a soccer field,
baseball field, wait a minute, before..the first baseball field that
I remember was at the corner of Phipps Street and Robinson Street.
Then they sort of developed the upper end toward Crook Street
as an all round sport complex, I suppose they'd call it today. Then
they had a football field, a soccer field and a baseball field. And
then they also had ball diamonds on the Boulevard, at the base of
Central Avenue and Bowen Road facing, the ball field use to face
us, Bowen Road and the back of the ball park was towards the river.
And then again they came up with the ball diamonds on the, behind
the Michigan Central, New York Central Station on Courtwright
Street. There was ball diamonds going up there just behind the
station. And I think that's all, well then of course Oaks Park, the
current one on Gilmore Road, is the one I can remember quickly
was the last time, baseball diamond. I keep talking baseball here
(
but that's about the only sport in those days. And everybody indulged
and there were a few isolates who played tennis or went bowling
or fishing and that rubbish but baseball was primarily the general
sport I think.
B.B.:
What about hockey, winter sports?
H.B.:
Well hockey came along after the arena was built and Buffalo use
to play there. And there was sort of an encroachment, if that's
the word, but the younger groups who worked in arenas, they use
to call you rink rats in those days if you hung around the arena.
And you'd be allowed in, and you'd sneak in..it was a great art in
those days sneaking into ball games or the hockey games. And I
remember when some of the hockey players, like there use to be
Syracuse, and London, Hamilton, Windsor, Rochester. They use
to have hockey teams that played in Fort Erie. And the hockey
players use to open up the windows, the dressing room door, window
rather and reach on and pull us into the arena. And we end up in
the visitors dressing room and then we'd sneak out under the seats
{
and watch the hockey game. We use to be shag by ushers and that,
we weren't too energetic. We knew who they were and they were
10
�buddies of ours but they had to put on an effort to keep us from invading
the arena. I know couples, fellows, I don't think I'll mention their
(
names, they use to take a lunch up to the arena in the afternoon
of the game, crawl under, they had a bandstand in those days, the
band use to play before the game and they use to play the National
Anthem..and sneak under the bandstand and eating the sandwich
and stay there until the game was over, or starting rather, which
might be three, four, five hours since they went under and then
they would watch the game. In other words he pitted wits against
the authorities you know. It was fun. If you got caught you got
fired out and you'd just try to get back in the window again. The
other window we use to climb in was the rest room, sneaking in
and out of the arena. And we use to do the same with the race
track. There use to be a hole in the corner of the fence. Where
were we, oh ya we were watching these sports events. Okay what's
the next subject?
B.B.:
Let's go back to when you were working at the C.N.; Railroad was a
big employment.
H.B.:
(
It sure was. Yes sir, not only was it a big employment but it was
the best pay. Yes sir, in those days teachers and doctors and lawyers
were starving to death but if you worked on the railroad you were
a big wheel. That was the people who had the cars on the street.
Nobody went anywhere you know you didn't, nobody went to Europe
for vacation or anything like that . So what you did you spent within
the area fairly well with what
you earned. And it use to be very
prosperous in those days.
B.B.:
When did that start to change?
H.B.:
Well I think probably when trucks came into being and started competing
with railroads. And the war came in. There was an acceleration
of new transport modes and I think that's where the turning point
was and railroads down hill. Anyways it was the best jobs in town
I'm sure.
B.B.:
What other employment was there in Fort Erie?
H.B.:
Well there was the civil servants, customs.
Harry, where was that job you made $15.00 per week?
H.B.:
Oh, I wouldn't tell themabout that. That wasn't a job that was penance.
Ya, in those days, you could work, I worked in a factory in Fort
Erie and you got $8.35 for six and a half days, you use to work
11
�Saturday mornings. But that wasn't a job, that was penance. Okay...
B.B.:
What type of industries were there in Fort Erie?
H.B.:
Well, there was Pratt & Lamberts and mostly it was the civil servants,
and the teachers and the professionals and the store keepers, Horton
Steele, I don't think they pay much more than they do now. And
Mentholateum, oh, there probably was others.
B.B.:
Did there seem to be a difference between Bridgeburg and Fort
Erie?
H.B.:
Yes, always, always, among the kids anyway.
B.B.:
In what way?
H.B.:
Well, as I say, you had your own entity in those days. If you lived
in Bridgeburg, that was it, you were a Bridgeburger. If you lived
in Fort Erie, you were a Fort Eriean and if you were from Amigari,
you were an Amigarian. And there was no set rules, there were
some, it seems to me that was how the pie was sliced and that was..
there was no animosities, it was just oh, he's from Amigari, or I
live in Fort Erie, or I live in Bridgeburg and you always identified
yourself, if it came to that, by saying where you lived.
{
B.B.:
What was the feeling then when they amalgamated?
H.B.:
Well, as far as I was concerned there was no,feeling, it was probably
disinterest, I don't know there might have been some concerns that
involved people but didn't concern a mass of people. I don't remember
any active or definite dividings or emergings or anything. Actually
if you hadn't read the paper you probably wouldn't know it had emerged.
B.B.:
What about the Depression, how did that affect this area?
H.B.:
Well, it devastated it. Because most of the factories..you could
get a job and starve to death in those days. You could have employment
and work your butt off and when you got your pay check you didn't
have enough to pay the food and rent bill and the fuel bill. And
it was, they really took advantage of, you know when I say they,
the employers whoever 'they' might be. And they took advantage
I'm sure of the situations and it was hard times. And I suppose there
were clothes hand downs and shoe hand downs and things like that
in families, big families, and that was accepted. I don't remember
any being any line between the big shots and the little guys in those
days. Everybody was more or less tainted with the same brush,
if tainted is the word. Your just, you're part of the game.
B.B.:
Did you ever go to Erie Beach?
12
�H.B.:
Oh sure. There use to be a train run from ah, well you know where
Gene Agrettes store is, right across from, there use to be a little
(
space in there and the ferry use to run between Buffalo and Fort
Erie in those days. And then there use to be a little train that use
to, it was a coal train, that use to run from Erie Beach. I don't
think anybody ever paid on it from the way I hear because you use
to jump on the train while it was going by. It didn't travel very
fast, you just use to tremble along. And the guy would probably
sell fifteen or twenty tickets and there would be four hundred on
the train and you'd have a hellof a job handling that, I mean as far
as discipline was concerned, or control.
B.B.:
What was Erie Beach like?
H.B.:
It was suppose to be the, the biggest beach. They had a zoo there
and they use to put on a little performance of, ponies use to run
around and dog their heads and things like that. And it was handier
than Crystal Beach for Fort Erie. People would from Buffalo, it
was handier I guess to go to Crystal Beach because they took a boat
from Buffalo right to Crystal Beach dock. Well there was no service
from Buffalo to the Erie Beach, you would have to come to Fort
(
Erie and then you'd get your self on to Erie Beach. But they had
a big dance hall at Erie Beach, progressive. And I think they probably
went into too much, I don't know. Yes it was, lovely swimming
pools, they just over went you know, they couldn't maintain.
B.B.:
Describe it yourself..you're going, taking the day there.
H.B.:
Well, okay. You'd take, like throwing darts and oh, I have to tell
you this.., they use to have a board, I mean this dart game and on
i
t
were long, different colored ribbons. You would stand back and
fire your darts and if you hit the same ribbons twice or three times
you would get various prizes. So, I had never seen a dart in my
life that I know of, so I gave my nickel or ticket and fired three
darts at the board and I hit this same bloody ribbon three times.
So that meant I could have anything I wanted in the stand. There
was silver trays and rolling rugs, not very big rugs, just little scatter
rugs. So I took this silver tray and I would say fifty, sixty years
later my mother still had this tray. She thought that was wonderful..
my major success in my early life. I had conquered Erie Beach and
(
won a prize. But it was lovely up there.
B.B.:
Did they have other games like that?
13
�H.B.:
Oh sure, we use to go on, we use to sit on a mat, there use to be
a long slide, and you'd sit on this mat and slide down. The reason
we went on that first was because it was only a nickel and we could
play it, ride it, as long as we wanted. Then you'd ride it 'til you
got pooped or fairly fed up and then you'd have to go into more
exotic, if that's the word, areas and pay more money to use them.
But you got your full of the little one first, conditioned as it were.
B.B.:
What other type of rides did they have?
H.B.:
Well, they use to always have this little steam engine that would
pull you around the park and you sat on that and go around the park.
And then you had a ferris wheel, I don't think it was any higher than
a six foot man but you thought you were in a cage. They caged
you in, in those days where you couldn't fall out. And then they
had games, you use to fish in ponds and all that sort of stuff. But
that was about it. There wasn't that much except they had a beautiful
park, that is where you can go and have your lunch and things like
that. Well they had a..well, that was what it was, not so much games
as recreation.
(
B.B.:
There was walkways?
H.B.:
We use to go once a year to the, the Sunday School use to go to
the .. another one of the big picnics at Erie Beach was the farmers
picnic .. and then there was the church, the churches use to have
their picnics up there. And in those days it didn't matter whether
you attende:l the church or not, you could go to the churches picnics
and have a ball. We use to have ice cream that use to melt. We
use to have, what was that.. salt, salt they use to soak into this ice...
they use to have these cans of ice cream that would be all melted
by the time the picnic was ready to serve it. But anyways it was
fun.
B.B.:
Where was the farmers picnic?
H.B.:
At Erie Beach.
B.B.:
What was it?
H.B.:
Well the farmers of the area use to go there with their huge baskets
of food, cider and all that sort of bit. From the whole area. They
use to come in, farmers use to come in every week into town. They
(
use to bring there fruit, like apples and pears and plums and also
they use to bring butter in a crock. You use to buy a crock, two
14
�crocks you use to have and your farmer came around on Saturday
morning and he left your crock of butter and took your empty crock
then he would reverse it and bring it back the next week. You had
these two crocks going back and forth between the customer and
the farmer. And if you wanted a fowl, they would bring you a duck
or a goose or a chicken, on one side you'd want a duck or whatever
from it. By the way, it only had to be a very big occasion that you
had a duck or a chicken or a turkey or a goose, during the year .
And then we use, a horse and wagon were predominant in those
days . You use to have, the milkman use to come around five o'clock
in the morning and meat .. and breadman and the farmer. These
were horses and they use to foul up the road. And my dad use to
give me a nickel if, I had a pail and I use to dash out, in competition
with other kids, and see if you could pick up this mess and put it
in your can. He used it on his flowers or whatever. And you were
in competition with the other kids, their fathers had told them,
if you see anything go out and get it. We had a pail sitting by the
side with a shovel and this horse came by I'd charge out there and
get there first.
(
B.B.:
Did you ever go to Crystal Beach?
H.B.:
Oh, sure but that was kind of a long way out. You had to go by
car and it wasn't the same as Erie Beach. People from Ridgeway
and Crystal Beach area, like the residential area, they use to go
to Crystal Beach and of course Buffalo use to have a real big trade
in Crystal Beach.
B.B.:
Do you remember a yacht club on the Niagara River?
H.B.:
I do but I didn't pay any attention to it. I remember they use to
have it.
B.B.:
Where was it located?
H.B.:
I don't know, I'm not really sure . I don't know. I had no interest,
I think a few people who socialized .. .....
B.B.:
What about the shipyards?
H.B.:
Oh, the shipyards were abandoned when we mo·ved here in 19 2..,
well, I guess they were abadoned, they didn't do any work out there.
They still call it the shipyards, that's where that yacht group is
now.
(
G.B.:
Wasn't it the war that took that?
H.B.:
Oh, yes...
G.B.:
That would be the first war .. 19 18.
15
�H.B.:
(
1918, ya. No I don't know anything about that except where it was.
But there was no people working there in my time.
B.B.:
What about the south end, the business area in the south end, how
has that changed?
H.B.:
I would say the south end right now, except these couple of modern
buildings like banks, there's the Commerce and Montreal, and the
Chinese have built it up. Basically though it's the same that it ever
was. I'm sure there are buildings there that were there a hundred
years ago.
B.B.:
What type of businesses use to be in there.
H.B.:
Little grocery stores, stationary stores. There use to be little stores
that use to sell tobacco and newspapers and racing forms, drug store
like Aspens and things like that. And then of course there was the
hardware store across the street called Hollys and then there were
HapGoods who ran a grocery store right next to it. And ah, there
was a bank down there, I think it was called the Molsons Bank.
It was right next to ... that big red building that's across from Happy
Jacks, I think that was...
(
B.B.:
Do you remember Sullivan's Fish and Chips.
H.B.:
Oh, sure. That was..it use to be twenty-five cents, the cheapest
I remember. He's sharp, he's got a good memory.
G.B.:
...he's a fixture in Fort Erie...
H.B.:
And another thing that use to go on in Fort Erie, so many nicknames.
People had nicknames, you never knew their real name. And even
to this day when a few of us are sitting around, we try to say, 'Now
who is so and so'. Like there was a guy named Zoo and the Chirp,
Duck. And if you were very tall they called you Shorty and even
if you very small they called you Shorty, so that one didn't define
too well, but it was predominant. And let's see who were they.. Dutch
and anyway there was a whole lot of nicknames. I never heard my
first name all through school, I was called Bushy. I was quite surprised
when I grew up and someone called me Harry and I said, 'oh, that's
my name', so...
B.B.:
H.B.:
(
Do you remember when the race track came in?
Oh, not came, no, that was there long before I came here. But
I remember the race track in the old days, sure. We use to sneak
in and walk through the stables to get to the in..what do you call
the inside of the track? Anyway they had the most viscious dogs,
16
�I never know to this day how we got through those days alive.
Because they had their own guard, they had belonged . .! think they
(
use to still from each other like crazy according to rumour. And
they had these beautiful big dogs, with big jaws like alligators .
...I think he would be the first who actually became a professional
jockey at the track. [Passero]
When we were kids, we were
always going to run away from home and be jockeys. These jockeys
use to walk around with these sharp suits on and these big felt hats
and talk their language, you know their colloqualisms. And weiwere
sitting right along side the starting gate when Johnny was on his horse,
it was pouring with rain and he won the first race that he was ever in
and he won the second race that he was in. He became at
one
time Canadas leading trainer for horses. But he's the only one I
can think of off hand at that time who went in as an actual jockey.
There was others that were interested in horses. I think there was
somebody who came after as a jockey but Johnny Passero was it.
B. B.:
Was the race track a popular place for people to go to?
H.B.:
Oh, sure and not only that it was a good source of employment.
Oh, sure it was very good. And there was like, parking cars, and
(
let see, the various places thatthey sold foods and souveniers, not
souveniers, programs. You know it was very active. And the Times
Review would get back to that and make the programs, you use
to have to russle them up just before the game, the races started,
for that days races. That was another project. Well, it was very
active, very benEficial, the race track.
B.B.:
Well can you think of anything else as you look back over Fort Erie
and some of the changes you have seen it go through?
H.B.:
Well, I haven't detected the changes so much.
G.B.:
I would say one thing was they built a new hospital here and they
built a new, all these buildings are new.
H.B.:
Ya, well that goes back a long ways you see. It goes back nearly
fifty years, so that's not really..
G.B.:
It's more than fifty years.
H.B.:
Ya, but I mean the hospital was there, I think it was built about
what, 19 ..
(
G.B.:
30 or 29.
H.B.:
Doug Fraser was the first person born in Douglas Memorial Hospital.
Do you know Doug by any chance? He lived on Bowen Road just
17
�at the bottom and Doctor Streets was the doctor. And Doug, I think
he got a hundred bucks or something on his 21st birthday as a reward
for being the first one born in Douglas Memorial Hospital.
G.B.:
Twenty-one years later that was an awful lot, I mean was very little
but at the time was ...
H.B.:
He works on the customs..Ithink, he left and went somewhere else
though. Anyway we watched him grow up. He was one of the kids
in our neighbourhood.
B.B.:
Before the hospital was here where would you go?
H.B.:
Either Buffalo or Niagara Falls. There was all kinds of people in
those days who had, I think they called it dual citizenship. They
Fort Erie residents and Canadians but when the baby was born the
handiest place to go was to the Buffalo Hospital. And they would
be born of Canadian parents in the United States. And I think there
was problems, just where did you belong, were you American or
were you Canadian and you had to declare I think it was final status.
That's where you went was the Buffalo Hospital.
B.B.:
Do you remember when the Peace Bridge was opened?
H.B.:
Oh, sure. We were kids and the Prince Wales was coming to open
the Peace Bridge. He had us on stands at the base of Bowen Road
and Niagara Boulevard and they had us sing God Save the King a
half a dozen times. .. Let me see where were we ..
B.B.:
You were singing God Save the Queen.
H.B.:
King.
B.B.:
King.
H.B.:
We were taken from school and we had these stands erected up
at the Niagara Boulevard at the base of Bowen Road, which was
the entrance to Fort Erie. And whenthe Prince of Wales come,
was to come by, in his entourage, we were to all sing God Save the
King. And we waited and waited and waited and all of sudden we
saw some motorcycles flashing down the Bowen Road, so they'd
arrive on the Niagara Bouldevard from the Falls. And the teachers
alerted us, and we were already to sing and he went by us at ab1Q:J11Jri"
fifty miles an hour. I don't think we even saw him. And the mctorcycles
would run, very exciting but it wasn't very helpful as discerning what was
going on.
B.B.:
Did you do any other feature stories on some prominent people that
might have visited Fort Erie?
18
�H.B.:
No, not that I can think of. There wasn't much going on here then.
I did a full story, a complete story on the history of the International
(
Bridge. People that fell off and cars that went off it.
B.B.:
Cars fell off it?
H.B.:
Well, I meant railway cars. The bridge opened and the cars kept
going, plummeting into the river. There was a ferry that use to
carry passengers I understand between Buffalo and Fort Erie, Black
Rock and Buffalo. The bridge opened up when it shouldn't have
and the car went down into the river. And then there was a famous
ball player Ed Dela-Honte, who he was supposed to have been drunk
and got off the train and thought he was at the station and he was
in the middle of the bridge and went flying into the water and we
never saw him again. But I have that report in writing. What else ... ?
B.B.:
Is there anything else you can think of as you look back.
H.B.:
Everything was different, boy/girl relationship was different. In
those days the boys weren't allowed to go over, like the school yard
was divided, boys, girls, and C.:0d help you if you were caught by
the teachers on the wrong one, these were the girls and the boys.
And we never, girls couldn't play baseball or didn't ride bicycles
(
and oh, all those kinds of social changes. Part of the times I guess,
evolution or regression, it's your choice.
B.B.:
What about the Queen Elizabeth Way? Do you remember when
that came?
H.B.:
Well, not too much. By that time I was old enough that it was just
a road being built. But it went on for years before it was completed.
You drove down it once when it was just ...
G.B.:
I drove down it when it was just one lane when I went to Alices
wedding. And it was just one, it wasn't nearly completed. This
chap that I went with he was a brother-in-law or something, he
drove me home to Fort Erie. And he really went so fast on the
one road I thought I was never going to get home.
H.B.:
It wasn't any big deal, it was just a road they were building from
Niagara Falls to Fort Erie.
G.B.:
Then they changed it, every year I bet for twenty years, they always
are repairing the Queen Elizabeth Way. Always.
B.B.:
(
So access out of Fort Erie wasn't that different than before?
H.B.:
Well, you went along the Boulevard.
G.B.:
Well, we went along the Boulevard and we went around there but
19
�it wasn't easy. You know, I mean it was a bad road.
B.B.:
The Niagara Boulevard was a bad road?
G.B.:
Well not a wide road.
H.B.:
There was parking there at night if that was bad.
G.B.:
Oh, parking. I don't think he ever did it but..
H.B.:
Okay, carry on Beverly. Getting pooped?
B.B.:
Nope. Is there anything else that...
H.B.:
Outstanding.
B.B.:
Outstanding.
H.B.:
I'll think of lots of it when you go.
B.B.:
Well, I thank you very much. You have done great.
H.B.:
Oh, sure. It's been fun, eh.
B.B.:
It has been, it has been. I appreciate it.
H.B.:
Okay, I just thought of this one instance that I think is hilarious.
We were playing in the back yard with this kid and he went in the
house for some reason or another and apparently got into conflict
.(
with his mother. By the way, this is when we were only about eight
or nine, ten years old. And there was this big row inside the house
and all of a sudden this kid comes charging out of the house with
his mother right behind him. And she's got one of these screens
that you use to put in the base of the window, you'd open the screen
and fit the width of the window and pull the 'window down on the
screen and then you had the air underneath. And she had this in
her hand. And just as he was getting beyond reach she swung at
him with this screen she was holding, and this screen opened up
and went over his head. And he's running across the field with this
blasted screen hanging around his neck and his mother still yelling
._at him to stop. And away he went. Oh, I can still visualize that.
Oh, another thing, my brother.. My dad was very strict. He was
in charge of our house. He never struck me, ever, but I always felt
I was one step from annhiliation when he got upset. So anyway,
he's carrying, he had this lawn sprinkler on the back lawn, and the
tap for
the lawn sprinkler was at the back of the house. So he
went and he turned off the water hose, the tap, picked up his sprinkler
and walked around the house to put it on, to put the sprinkler on
the front lawn. In the meantime my brother sneaked up behind
20
�and I don't know why the hell he ever did this, he knew he'd get
creamed.
He turned the tap on and my dads carrying the sprinkler
and all of a sudden, he's walking around carrying the sprinkler and
it jumps up alive, and water all over
the place.
So my dad came
charging around the side of the house, my brother-jumped, hurdled
the fence and nobody could have come close to hurdling under normal
incentive, and my dad after him.
The last thing we saw he disappeared
into the woods along side of Bowen Road and ·towards
safely though.
.•
,
he got back
But I don't know yet why he ever did that to that
tap because it had to be disastrous.
Oh, ya, and Al Reid and I were playing catch one day in the back
yard .
In our back por ch were four windows, crosses, and he �hrew
the ball too high for me, when I ducked they couldn't get it, and
the ball instead of getting one window and �me pane and breaking
it, it hit right in the centre of this four pane window and broke
the whole bloody four of them.
a rocket.
And out the door my dad came like
The minute anything was going on it was out of tune with
the normal he was very alert and very aggresive.
any questions, you were just it.
and we were a
And he didn't ask
So away we went into the woods
long time before we came back but we fixed it up.
But at the time you think you are in imminent death throes.
21
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Beverly Branton
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Mr. Bush's home at 19 High Street Apartments, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Bush, Harry
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is the transcript of Harry Bush's interview. He discusses such topics as:
Railroad
Schools
Recreation
North End
Fort Erie Times
Bridgeburg
Amigari
Sports
Employment
Erie Beach
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Stores and businesses
Medicine
Queen Elizabeth Way
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
May 22, 1985
1980s
1985
Amigari
Bridgeburg
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
Fort Erie
Fort Erie Times
north end
Oral history
queen elizabeth way
railroad
recreation
schools
sports
stores and businesses
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/b811e8357b61068cbd916747e3437faf.pdf
02d8aff903735a68b3897c127b21bffc
PDF Text
Text
Uana
Matthews
interviewing Mrs. Boyd at her home at 223 Highland Avenue,
Fort Erie, May 3rd, 1985.
I
i
D.M:
Hi Mrs. Boyd, how are you today?
M.B:
Fine thank-you.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Can you tell me your full name?
Margaret Irene Boyd.
How long have you lived here in Fort Erie?
60 years.
D.M:
How old were you when you moved here?
M.B:
I was a young bride.
D.M:
Just married?
M.B:
Well, not just married, I was married for a couple of years. I came
from Chattam.
D.M:
M.B:
Why did you move to Fort Erie?
My husband was brought here to work at the Horton Steel from
DesMoines. The DesMoines Steel Company, they were located in
Chattam and they sold out to the Horton Steel and my husband
came here.
D.M:
What did you do when you went out in Fort Erie when you first moved
here, on a Saturday night, where would you go?
M.B:
Well, when we first moved here we lived in a stone block house
at the corner of Gilmore Road and Kincardine. It's now where the
Toronto Dominion Bank stands. On a Saturday night you walked
down Gilmore Road, which was then quite a hill, along the river,
took the ferry, went over on the ferry and went up to grant Street.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
What was there?
Oh, all kinds of grocery stores and food stores and things like that.
Didn't you do your shopping here in Fort Erie?
Well, there wasn't that much really, as far as fresh fruit and things
like that.
D.M:
M.B:
What about Jarvis Street, didn't it have lots of stores?
Not that many as I remember. This one store called Rungs, it was
a grocery store and a meat store combined
••••
D.M:
M.B:
(
Was that on Jarvis Street?
Yes, and across the street was Charters Bakery. Those are the only
stores I can remember When I first came to Fort Erie.
D.M:
Did you ever go to Erie Beach?
1
�M.B:
D.M:
(
M.B:
Yes. I went there once.
Do you remember what it was like?
Yes, I can just barely remember the amusements, the big dance
hall.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Did you go in the Dance Hall?
Not to dance!
Did you go on any of the rides?
I really can't remember that because it was shortly after that that
it closed.
D.M:
M.B:
What about Crystal Beach, did you ever go there?
Oh yes.
D.M:
What was that like?
M.B:
Very nice, it was just a big amusement park.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Were the railroads running alot when you moved to Fort Erie?
Yes, they were very, very busy.
Did they bring stuff to Fort Erie?
Yes. This was the... how will I say it. . . direct route from Buffalo
through to Detroit, you see, and there was alot. . . not that they brought
so much to Fort Erie, but it was through traffic you see.
(
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Could you catch the train here to go somewhere?
Very much so.
Did you ever take it?
Oh yeah, in the early days I think there were 6,9,2 and 5, I think,
trains up to Toronto. You could go up to Toronto early in the morning
and come back on the 6 o'clock train.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Do you remember when the Peace Bridge was built, were you here?
Oh yes.
What happened?
All I can remember is going down to the river and watching the
Prince of Wales go by.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
Did he come to town?
Oh yes, he opened the Bridge.
Were you at the opening?
No.
Did you go to church here in Fort Erie?
Oh yes.
Which church?
Knox presbyterian.
Is that still standing?
2
�M.B:
Oh yes, that's the one down here at the corner of Highland and
Central. The original church was burnt, over on Courtwright.
(
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Were you here when it burnt?
Oh yes.
Did you see it?
Oh yes.
What happened?
Well, we had built our new church and had sold the property to
some man, I think, from Buffalo, and evidently there was a gas leak
and there was a big explosion, and the church burnt down.
D.M:
M.B:
When was that?
Oh, it must have been around 1930-31, because we opened our new
church in 1930, and it seems to me that it was the next year that
this. . . he was thrown right out through the doors.
D.M:
Who?
M.B:
The man who owned it.
D.M:
Was he killed?
M.B:
I can't remember whether... no, I don't think he was killed. He just
went inside the doors and flipped the light and
(
D.M:
M.B:
it exploded.
Did you ever work in Fort Erie?
No.
D.M:
Do you have any children?
M.B:
I have two daughters.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Do they work here in Fort Erie?
No, one lives in England and the other one lives here in Fort Erie.
Do you remember any bad blizzards or storms in Fort Erie?
Oh yes, I can remember them, but I can't tell you much about them.
D.M:
What happened to you when there was a blizzard?
M.B:
You just had to stay indoors, that's just about it.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Was there alot of cars in Fort Erie when you moved here?
No.
Did you have a car?
No.
How did people get around?
Walked!
Was there many horses?
No, I don't remember too many. When we moved here, it was Horton
Steel people, you see, McMurtry's lived there, and Chapman's lived
there and they all worked at Horton Steel. My husband was the
3
�Chief Engineer there. This was all vacant fields. It doesn't seem
possible, but that was all vacant fields across there.
(
D.M:
How long have you lived in this house?
M.B:
I have to stop and think. 54 years.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Do you know who built it?
Yes, we did.
Did your husband build it?
No no, we had a contractor. These 3 houses were all built at the
same time.
D.M:
Do you remember when they reconstructed the Old Fort?
M.B:
I guess I did
D.M:
What part of town was this when you moved here?
M.B:
Bridgeburg. There was quite a division. I don't know whether you
•.•
it being down in Fort Erie you didn't
•••
know, but Gilmore Road was the dividing line between the two towns.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
What about Amigari, where was that?
Well, Amigari was at the top of Gilmore Road.
When did they join them together?
Now what year was that
.••
was it 1929
..•
I'm sorry, I can't remember
the exact date, but it was strange, there was such a dividing line.
Let me tell you a funny story, as I say, we lived on the Gilmore
(
Road, and I went down to the ferry and I was told to buy a book
of tickets. So the lady said to me, where do you live? And I said
on Gilmore Road. And she said, On which side of Gilmore Road?
I said well, we are living in Major MacKenzie's house. Oh, she said,
alright. With the result that I got a discount!
D.M:
M.B:
How come?
Well, I was living in Fort Erie, on the other side of Gilmore
Road
was Bridgeburg, and you paid full fare.
D.M:
M.B:
Why the difference?
Well that was just it! You were in Bridgeburg, so you paid full fare
on the ferry, but if you lived in Fort Erie, you got a discount. I never
forgot that! ! I had to tell her exactly where I lived before she would
give me the book
of tickets. If I had lived on the opposite side of
the street, I was living in Bridgeburg then.
D.M:
M.B:
Why did they bring them all together, the 3 places?
Well, I think it was a good idea to amalgamate instead of having
3 little towns. At that time, it was just the 3 of them known as
(
Fort Erie. Central Avenue Bridge wasn't built then.
D.M:
When was that built, do you know?
4
�M.B:
No, I'm sorry, I can't say. That's why I said I lived at the corner
of Gilmore Road
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
and Kincardine.
Kincardine? Is that still a street?
It's Central Avenue now.
They changed the name when they built the bridge?
When they built the bridge they went all the way through Central
Avenue. You'd be surprised the number of people that I have said
that to and they'd say I've never heard that name. People that have
lived here in Fort Erie for some time, and they say Oh, I never heard
that name.
D.M:
Where did you buy your first car?
M.B:
At Ross Spears.
D.M:
Where was that?
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
At the corner of Dufferin and Central.
Was it a car dealership?
Yes.
D.M:
M.B:
I think it was a Chevrolet.
D.M:
(
What kind of car did you get?
Is the car place still there?
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Oh yes. It's now Don Deans.
What about radios, do you remember when you heard your first radio?
Yes, my husband made it.
Was that when you lived here?
Yes.
How did he make it?
Oh, he got the parts and made a radio!
Do you remember what the first thing you heard on the radio was?
Yes, from Pittsburg. That was one of the stations that you could
reach.
D.M:
M.B:
Did you get any stations from Buffalo?
I suppose so, but I can't remember that part, but it was alot of
fun trying to get all the different stations!
D.M:
Did you find that you had alot more Americans coming in to Fort
Erie after they built the Peace Bridge?
M.B:
D.M:
(
M.B:
Oh I think so.
What did they come to Fort Erie for?
Well, not so much to Fort Erie as thay were passing through. It
was a shortcut then for people from Ohio and that part of the
•.•
Indiana and all through there.
5
�D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
(
M.B:
Did the ferries stop running when the Peace Bridge was built?
Yes.
People didn't use them anymore?
Not the same. It was quite a scary trip by ferry in the spring of
year when the ice was coming down. You'd be on the boat and a
big chunk of ice would hit the side of it you know.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
Did any of them ever sink?
No.
When you moved to Fort Erie, what was your first impression of
the town?
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
Terrible!
How come?
Well, I had been accustomed to living in Toronto, and then to come
to a small town, it was a
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
.••
but I got used to it. I like Fort Erie.
It was alot different from Toronto?
Oh yes. But I got to like Fort Erie and the people.
Did you live in Fort Erie through the Depression?
Yes.
How did that affect you?
Well, how will I say it? The number of people that came every day
to your door asking for a meal, you'd have, perhaps, 2,3,4 people
coming to your door each day asking if you could give them something·
to eat. You did your best, you made up sandwitches for them.
D.M:
Your husband was working at the time?
M.B:
Oh yes. You see, they would come on the train and then they'd get
as far as the International Bridge and they couldn't go over into
the States, so with the result that we had alot of them. They had
to get off the train, they'd been riding in the boxcars and things
like that, so that we had quite a few transients and that asking for
food.
D.M:
M.B:
What happened to them all, did they eventually leave?
Oh, eventually, when times picked up. They used to have camps
along the railway tracks.
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
{
What about World War 2, did you live here through that?
Oh yes.
Did anything happen in town during that time?
No, I didn't think so. Not that I can remember . I had taught a Sunday
School class in my church and 3 of my pupils, when they grew up
of course, oh, it had only been a few years, they didn't return, they
6
�were killed overseas. I always think of them.
D.M:
(
Did you husband's job at Horton Steel, did they make anything for
the war? Did they manufacture any parts?
M.B:
I think that was done by Fleet, I don't remember Horton doing
that. Horton was a steel fabricating company.
D.M:
Ho w long did your husband work there?
M.B:
38 years.
D.M:
What about Prohibition, did you live in Fort Erie through that?
M.B:
I guess so, I don't remember
•
It was something I wasn't interested
in I guess.
D.M:
I understood the Americans would come across the brige to come
drink in Fort Erie did you ever see ·any of that?
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
D.M:
M.B:
No.
Do you have anything else you'd like to add?
I don't think so.
It's been very nice talking to you, thank-you very much.
It's been very nice talking to you!
(
(
7
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Diana Matthews
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Margaret Boyd
Location
The location of the interview.
Mrs. Boyd's home at 223 Highland Ave, Fort Erie.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette Tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Boyd, Margaret
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is the transcript of Margaret Boyd's interview. He discusses such topic as:
Horton Steel
Stores and businesses
Erie Beach
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Peace Bridge
Churches
Transportation
Amigari
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
May 3, 1985
1980s
1985
Amigari
churches
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
Fort Erie
Horton Steel
Oral history
peace bridge
recreation
stores and businesses
transcripts
transportation
-
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PDF Text
Text
April 15/85- This is a interview by Michael Near with Ernest Benner at
his home on the Bowen Road.
(
.
M.N:
Mr. Benner where were you born ?
E.B:
I was born in the village of Bridgeburg.
M.N: Thats now the north end of Fort Erie ?
E.B:
Now the north end of Fort Erie and our home-stead was on Dufferin
Street were at present today is Dufferin Motors is our old home-stead;
the old BellArd Theatre was across the road from us, which was
run by the Ziff family, in them days it was silent pictures and Eda
Ziff played the piano.
M.N: Did your Dad come from Fort Erie ?
E.B:
Yes, my Father was born in Bridgeburg. Bridgeburg,not Fort Erie.
:Hy Dad was born in Bridgeburg, he worked with my Grandfather
Em Benner, teaming, digging cell¢ars.
M.N:
They were called teamsters ?
E.B:
Yes my Dad and Grand-dad and many more around Bridgeburg in
those days did the big projects-the two big projects they did was
dig the cellar for Pratt and Lambert Paint and Varnish Company
(
up there on Mack St. and the Arner Company which used to be
the old Jell-o Company were they made Jell-o and those cellars
were all dug and scraped with horses.
M.N:
The horses were a lot more popular then ?
E.B:
Oh yes, there was lots of horses then in Bridgeburg them days,
Charlie Vahaye had a horse, a promient family in Bridgeburg
Dicky White was the butcher shop on Jarvis St. , he had a horse
and a Democrat, he delivered grnceries with it and Harvey ConÂ
noly used to deliver groceries.
M.N:
Whats a Democrat ?
E.B:
A buggy like mine, a two seated buggy, down on Courtwright St.
John Dustro had a grocery store he also delivered with a horse
and Peanuts Benner drove the horse.
M.N:
Was that any relation to you ?
E.B:
Yes, first cousin.
1
�M.N:
(
When did you first start at the Coal Company ?
E.B:
!started in the coal after school I suppose I'd be about 12 or 13
years old, come home from school and go down and bag coal.
Thats the only job I ever worked at, !worked at Horton Steel
for two months, other than that the only other job I had was at
home.
M.N:
You delivered coal ?
E.B:
Yes, I delivered coal for years and years, with trucks after the
horses went out. When the snow storm of 44, thats the winter
Ellen was born, I delivered coal with the horses for two weeks
In the winter of 38 I delivered milk for the Fort Erie Dairy in
the winter time, I was on the farm and went and helped them out.
M.N:
Big change since you were a kid ?
E.B:
Ho ho theres more changes then you can believe, its pitiful the
way Fort Erie is today.
M.N:
In what way ?
E.B:
Well number one Fort Eriewas a Rail Road town and when we was
kids I could of got a job any place, there was all kinds of work in
(
Fort Erie. It was a Rail Road town, you talk to your Dad, shovel
ing snow in the winter on the Rail Road , you could get a job any
place, now its all mechanized theres no work, look at your Rail
Road, look at the section gang all �one by hand, now its machine.
M.N:
I would like to ask you some specifics. Do you remember ProhibÂ
ition ?
E.B:
No, not that much.
M.N:
Do you remember anything going on, at that time ?
E.B:
I remember when they was rum running at the foot of Dufferin St.
there was boats coming in and out when I was a kid, at that time
we didn't know any better kids would dive down arid get bottles
of what ever it was, whiskey, wine, beer, I don't know what it was
I was just a kid like little Mike.
M.N:
Was there a lot of guys involved.....
E.B:
Oh yes, there was a lot of guys involved in smuggling, this river
was alive from here to Chipawa.
(
M. N:
Was there any bad incidents:-shoot outs ?
E.B:
Not that I recall.
2
�M.N:
(
Okay will skip over to the Depression- hard times in the Fort Erie
area ?
E.B:
Yes, it was hard times, I could tell you so much it would make
your head spin. There was just no work, us kids in our family I went out to the farm to work with Uncle Orville Sherk, but half
of Fort Erie caddied, do anything to get a dollar, kids would go
to the Erie Downs Golf Course and caddy. In the Depressionit was just there was no work. Engineers, conductors, and brakeÂ
men and so on the Rail Road lost there jobs.
Old Pere Embry I'll never forget for one, he ended up as janitor
at the High School, till this thing got over-Cecil Winimute-oh my
Uncle Braun Parker and Avery and Eddie and all those guys do
anything, this is when Grand-pa Benner had teams, teamsters
you only got ¢50 a day.
M.N:
Was there any welfare or social assistance then ?
E.B:
Yes, what they would do in our case, being in the coal business
if you had no money and no heat you went to the town hall. The
town hall was run by two people, Bill Tate was the clerk and Doug
(
Sage was his secratary and they did more then all they got down
there �oday, I'll tell you. You would get a voucher for a ton of
coal bring it over to my Dad or the office and they hang it on
a hook. This was one of many, then every month my Dad would
send the bill into the Town, and he would get his money for the
coal, the town paid everything and the same with groceries, you
got a voucher for groceries and you took it to Carrolls Store,
Carrolls was on Jarvis St. then or the Dominion Store-this is the
way they did it-but you worked for it, down there on the corner
of- were Bill Fickels is to-day- I can remember as a kid going
through there to the office and the works office was right along
side of it, it was as big as this house here. That was the office
and everything - Bert Sampson and Doug Finlason was town foreÂ
man, Roy Renshaw started just as a kid, sweeping and shoveling.
M.N:
What was the difference between Bridgeburg and Fort Erie ?
E.B:
Well Bridgeburg and Fort Erie had the same thing- Bridgeburg
was in this end of town, Fort Erie was at the other end and I
(
can't tell you much about the other end, I remember old Lou
Douglas he was Reeve of the other end and old Bill Milton was
fudge. Bill Holly- when they incorperated Bill Holly was mayor
the best mayor Fort Erie ever had or Bridgeburg ever had. It was
3
�E.B:
(
-tough, they bought your coal, they bought your food, they never
see you g°. hungry and I remember going to school- if you broke
.
glasses, the kids didn't have no money, the Lions Club, they furnished glasses.
M.N:
When do you think they pulled out of the Depression ?
E.B:
I couldn't say Mike, they called it the dirty thirties, what was it
3 years, 4 years, I forget.
M.N:
Did the war help ?
E.B:
Well you see we were quite aways from the war, but we never
went, when was the first time, I went, when was the first, I was·
in the second draft. By that time things were booming, Fleet was
going strong and they kept adding on to Fleet, -Redford Construction
did a lot of work at Fleet, I mean Benner Coal Company in them
days sold a pile of cement and everything else. Theres so many
changes Mike. When everybody says you'd hate to go back to the
old days- its brutal whats these kids going to do, this is what gets
me, I mean everyone can't be a doctor or lawyer, what are they
going to do? The computers ? In them days they plowed snow,
(
my Dad and Grand-dad and everybody else down there, they plowed
snow with horses on the sidewalk- your old man- they did this all
winter long.
M.N:
Can you tell me about the ferry ? Do you remember if it operated
in the winter time ?
E.B:
Yes, I think it did on decent days when there wasn't to much ice.
I'll tell you who you want to talk to about that ferry- Scotty Miller,
you know Yummy Miller- you ask Yummy Miller, he will refer you
he lives right down there on Phips St.- his wife- Scotty worked
on the ferry, to bad Pete Thompson wasn't here-Christ- Pete
could tell you more- oh man- but there all gone now but I remember when young Scotty Miller worked on the ferry.
And I know Sunday afternoons a bunch of us would walk up to the
ferry dock, get the boat across, cost you a nickel to go over, we
walked up ferry hill, it cost you a nickel to go to the Victoria show
you got a bag of popcorn for a nickel-man! you had a field day for
(
a quarter.
M.N:
What was the south-end like ? What was down there ?
Just like it is to-day, I was never in the south-end really that much, Bill
4
�(
E.B:
_Holly was the main stay there, he had a hardware store, Frank
Hapgood had the grocery store, Eddie Seaton had the brokers and
insurance office.
The train ran to Erie Beach from the ferry dock right straight
through, that ferry would come over loaded with people, that
was a big deal and those two hotels was there .
M.N:
Which hotels were those ?
E.B:
The Anglo-American, the Queens was run by the Hawkins family,
the Queens Hotel was there- the King Edward but t�at was big
business.
. .
M.N:
What do you call that train that ran from .. ..?
E.B:
I couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out
to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was
.
telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were
talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope
on that thing.
M.N:
(
What do you call that train that ran out from.
E.B:
I
... ?
couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out
to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was
telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were
talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope
on that thing.
M.N:
Were you ever out to Erie Beach when it was open ?
E.B::
Oh yes, I was just a little kid .
M.N:
Was it nice ?
E.B:
Oh yes, it was really nice but as I say it was run and controlled
by the Bardol family and they owned all that property, Harry
Heatherton had a store there, oh yes, we did business with the
Bardols for years.
M.N:
The Bardols had control of it - were they Canadians ?
E.B:
No they were Americans.
M.N:
What about Crystal Beach
E.B:
Well we never got out to Crystal Beach very much Mike, it
was a long way up there but it was going strong but they both did
good, evidently. That boat came from Buffalo.
M.N:
The Canadiana ?
E.B:
Yes, the Canadiana came from there
done a big business.
to
Crystal Beach and they
5
�(
E.B:
If you could talk to some of the old custom officers down town
if theres any old ones, like Pere Sexsmith is gone now and Johnny
Rider, they all worked that boat. At Cry stal Beach they had the
customs and immigration there.
M.N:
They had customs and immigration at Crystal Beach ?
E.B:
Oh yes, right at the Beach, they did it at the ferry dock too.
Charlie Muir ran it down there.
M.N:
Do you remember anything about the building of the Peace Bridge ?
E.B:
Oh a little, lets see I was about 8 years old, I heard my Dad talk
about it, they drawed cement in there they poured those piers and
everything. The cement came in cloth bags, they dropped bag and
all in, that was a big big deal for Fort Erie the Peace Bridge was,
I was just a kid, I remember them building it.
M.N:
How many people were in that area of Bridgeburg, Fort Erie, and
Amigari, roughly ?
E.B:
Maybe 3 to 4,000, I guess- like I told you get into those files down
there, I wanted to go down there, Grand-Pa Benner was- served
(
on council, I think it was 1890 just before 1900, you could get all
that stuff, oodles of stuff.
M:N:
Were did you go to school in Fort Erie ?
E.B:
Phipp Street School .
M.N:
That was Bridgeburg ?
E.B:
That was Bridgeburg.
M.N:
Was that a big school ?
E.B:
Yes.
M.N:
Did it take in all that area of town ?
E.B:
Phipp St. went from Bowen Road in Fort Erie to Courtwright St.
well then after a few years as the population grew, I remember
my brother Zeke and Gordy, see we lived on the North side of
Jarvis St. they had to go to Winimute School but I never did, I
started at Phipp St..
M.N:
What did you do as a kid ?
E.B:
Skating, hockey, playing ball, swim in that river.
M.N:
The river a lot cleaner then ?
E.B:
Oh yes, it was clean as a whip.
M.N:
Fish ?
E.B:
Lots of fish at the foot of Dufferin St., you see they had the airÂ
plane dock - sea-planes used to come in there.
6
�E.B:
M.N:
When did this airplane used to come in there ?
E.B:
(
An airplane dock just down from the gravel dock.
Oh Christ, I don't know when- why they landed in there I don't
know, but they did used to be sea-planes that came in there,
you know pontoon planes, they land on the water, but there was
all kinds of fishing in the water, lots of pike and bass in the spring
of the year, you take in there under the Peace Bridge they used
to call it the old mill race, all kinds of fish up there.
M.N:
Whats the old mill race ?
E.B:
That was the name of it, when they built the Bridge that done
away with it, you know when you go under the Peace Bridge, well
that was all water,, thats were we used to fish.
M.N:
That was natural ?
E.B:
That was natural then they put the bridge in.
M.N:
So when did the town start to grow ?
E.B:
Well you could definitly say in the war years, Fleet got going,
Horton Steel, all them people worked around the clock.
M.N:
(
The Rail Road was going strong ?
E.B:
The Rail Road was going steady, they was hiring men like crazy
-they couldn't get men.
M.N:
Do you think the schools were better then, when you were a kid ?
E.B:
I would say so- definitely, because you had the 3-r's rememberreading, writing, and arithmitic, look at it to-day you got these
guys coming out of college and can't spell there own name bu�
our set-up is altogether different, exaperience don't mean nothing
you got to have that piece of paper, which is all wrong Mike, I
mean I'm from a wealthy family and your from a poor family,
your people can't put you through college and you come out with
a piece of paper and you don't know nothing about nothing, I've
worked at trucking and teaming and you name it, I got the exsper
ence, but I'd be knocked out-mine you- look at the wages that's
being paid to-day, I mean I started working down there shoveling
coal, we got 20¢ a hour and you worked your way up. I got married
in 1942 and I was making 25 $ a week, bought
a
house, a'fid all our
furniture, we was doing fine on $25.00 a week, now that $25. 00
has to be $325.00 or you don't exist, I mean interest in those days
was 3 or 4 %, look at what it is to-day 16-18. A pair of shoes, the
best shoes I ever had - Sunny Shoes- I never paid more then $3.30
at Father and Son Shoes.
7
�M.N:
(
Did you ever go to Buffalo and shop ?
E.B:
Oh yes, shopped in Buffalo all the time, we always bought are
overhalls- all our winter clothes- Sears Roebuck was a wonderful
big store- like in my days, the lower terrace they called it, thats
were all the hardware stores, all the big ones. My Dad and GrandÂ
dad, in those days would go over and buy and what little duty you
had to pay on it.
M.N:
A lot of people shopped over in ...... ?
E.B:
Oh yes, a lot of people shopped in Buffalo.
M.N:
In my research I've found an area called Victoria, down by the
International Bridge, do you remember Victoria ?
E.B::
No, but they tell me that Bridgeburg was called Victoria, you go
'
·
and search in that library. Bert Miller wa{) the old historian, he's
got a daughter alive, Mrs. Mary Sauder, she lives down on the. Blvd.
she did, whether she's got any of them old papers, there was a
whole write up in the Fort Erie paper about 10 years ago all about
Victoria and the name of Jarvis St.-its all in there.
M.N:
Do you remember when Jarvis Street had mud on it ?
E.B:
Yes, I remember when they paved Jarvis St., the only reason I reÂ
member, when they came to a drive way , were your drive way
went in they poured concrete aprons you would call them we were
just kids and the foreman gave us a nail, I'll never forget it, we
put our names and date in the concrete.
M.N:
Do you remember the date of that ?
E.B:
No, I remember when they paved the streets in Fort Erie because
Godson Construction Company from Toronto did all the work and
my brother Howard he was water boy for the construction company
all he did was carry a pail of water and give the labourers a drink.
M.N:
Do you remember any of the business down on Jarvis St?
E.B:
Oh Mike Purpura had the barber shop, he was a prominent barber,
and you go down Jarvis St. there was - Briggs- the Briggs building
old Mr. Briggs had a big business, I'll never forget out in front
of his store, right on the sidewalk of Jarvis St. sat a gasoline pump
one of those old hand pumpers, they had the glass thing and they
held 10 gallons, and gasoline in them days was about 20-22 cents
·
a gallon and you go down from-Briggs had the paint, wallpaper,
fishing tackle, bycycles, he had everything, he did a big business.
Next to Briggs was Patton and Dotty it was a clothing store in
Fort Erie..
8
�E.B:
(
Then you went down and the Superior Store and the Dominion Store.
Frank Willik had a butcher shop there-Mitch had a hardware store
there, Tommy Holbick worked in the hardware store and Hecknians
Barber Shop was there and La Hays grocery store was there- and
Ernie and Alice Mitchels Barber Shop was there, Dicky White's
Butcher Shop, thats before they built the A&P, Paul Pong had a
laundry in there, Everts had the Dairy, Magdallena Moringstar
had the Fort Erie Photo Studio, Robins had a Shoe Store there,
Lonsbury had the frug Store, Kieth Butler had the Barber Shop,
Ziggy Klien had the Pool Room, Charters Bakery was down in
there to, the Bank of Montreal was in there- I remember when
they built the Bank of Montreal on the south si.de of Jarvis St.
they had the cops, a big to do, they took the vault and the money
from one side of the street to the other.
M.N:
Who was the cop then ? Andy Griffiths ?
E.B:
I remember Andy and Chirp, Walter Kitt was a cop, but before
Andy Griffiths - ain't that a bugger- I'm slipping, he lived up in
the Barney Long house on Dufferin St., Hyat was his name, some
such thing as that- he was a cop.
Well then down on Jarvis St. ther was a Chinese Resturant it had
a big rooster out in front with lights on, it just looked as if its
head was going all the time and Eddie Johnson had the R•eview
Paper, which hired a lot of people, old John Atwood had the Atwoods
Store down there, he was Reeve of the town, he was the underÂ
ta,ker, he was the furniture maker, he had her. The old Post Office
stood there- old Billy Hogg ? - Billy Braum ? - your going a long
way back- and Gord Roberts had the eye-Rungs Garage was in the
back and there was the Superior Store and the Royal Bank old G.R.
Steele ran the Royal Bank. There was 2 or 3 stores up in there but
I forget who was all there. I remember Tom Nags had the Barber
Shop up on the top end of Jarvis St., he had a big wooden veranda
wooden side-walk, people would go there and sit- my Dad went to
the barber shop every Saturday with out fail, thats were the old
timers met and shot the breeze.
M.N:
This was right in Bridgeburg ?
E.B:
Right down at Heckmans Barber Shop- my Dad- Angus brothers
they had Angus Groceries on Central Ave., Bill Hana, Bill Cavana
Doc Streets and Doc Mitchell.
9
�E�B:
Bill Heckman would never get home Saturday night, they didn't
close up to 12:30-1:00 oclock, shooting the breeze down there
(
oh that was a big due.
M.N:
Did you used to go to dances ?
E.B:
Oh yes, we used to have beautiful dances down there, all kinds
of dances.
M.N:
What kind of music ?
E.B:
Different people would play, no such thing as juke boxes then,
you had someone on the violin, the guitar, the piano.
M.N:
All people from town ?
E.B:
Oh yes, lots of Waltzes, you know, square dancing was big but I·
remember - must have been the Rebecas it was the ladies organization of the Odd Fellows, they would hold dances and my Mother
was on the lunch commitee, I remember us kids would go upstairs,
with cakes- we had a great time.
M.N:
Was there a lot more lodges then- mens clubs ?
E.B:
Well not more, there was the Masonic Lodge, the Odd Fellows,
the Orange Lodge- that I remember the Kinsmen Club, the
Lions Club, the Junior Chamber of Commerce which was really
going strong then, Dutch Jackson was president, I used to go down
to it. But them was all good organizations and they did a lot of
good for old Bridgeburg, I'll tell you.
M.N:
What did they do ? '
E.B:
Helping people out, you know.
M.N:
Did they build a lot of stuff, or just donate money ?
, E.B:
They did a lot of donations, helping out, the Kinsmen Club for
instance years ago- maybe in the forties, they supplied all the
hockey, they had kids playing like they do now, from six or seven
years old and up and they footed the bill for it, the Kinsmen Club
they bought those kids everything, they did really good.
M.N:
You mentioned hockey, the Fort Erie arena during the great snow
storm collapsed, that was 37 or 39
'
was that as bad as the snow
storm of 1977 ?
E.B:
M.N:
(
Oh I would say yes, did the 77 take much down ?
I think it caused a fair amount of damage .
E.B:
The arena was the big damage in Fort Erie at the time, but they
never had the equipment like they do now- snow plows- I remember
Bill Renshaw drove the army truck, as long as you didn't break
down you was fine.
10
�E.B:
But you take like us guys drawing coal, or milk with the horses
when the teaming was going, you had good slieghing all winter
long, now ··with the salt and calcium you couldn't sliegh if you
had to.
M.N:
You think the team was better for that type of weather? Slower ?
E.B:
Oh yes, you where a lot slower, but you were tuned to the times.
To-day its hurry hurry, just look at me this morning with the team
I could of did that in 2 hours but I was all morning with the team.
Working men took a lot of pride in there work but not to-day, toÂ
day its production, hurry up.
M.N:
You think things were a lot more quality then ?
E.B:
Yes sir.
M.N:
When did you notice the difference when coal shifted over to elecÂ
tricy and gas ?
E.B:
Oh I would guess about 45 to 50 some where in there, gas $tarted
to come in strong then and then they pushed oil but oil never got
the foot hold that gas did but it was a lot more money but people
was tired of carrying ashes evidently, the cheapest coal we sold
was $12.00 a ton that was for number 1 hard coal.
M.N:
How long would a ton of coal last?
E.B:
A ton of coal would run a normal house a month, 30 days, give or
take, how much you had cold weather and wind, but once the people
got the gas, and wages started going up why everybody went to it,
the coal business went right down ...... .
M.N:
Where did you get your coal ?
E.B:
Our coal came from Scranton, Pennslvania.
M.N:
That would be brought in by train ?
E.B:
Oh yes, we shipped everything by rail, we used to ship stoker coal
stoker coal was promient then, the hospital, the green houses, the
bigger stores well then Archie MacGlas1'on he started- down there
on the foot of Jarvis Street we called it the gravel dock, they shipped
gravel, pea gravel, why as kids for sling shots they were dandy, and then
they - during the war they shipped in scrap cars in there, you don't
remember that, they unloaded scrap there.....
M.N:
What did they do with the scrap ?
E.B:
Shipped it to Hamilton I guess. Well then Archie went into the
coal business, he went into the stoker business, why he took all
the stoker business in Fort Erie we couldn't compete with water
rates.
11
�E.B:
I
with rail rates so Archie had a good stoker business, he had -he
sold stokers, and seviced stokers, we was the best of friends mind
(
you, we was in competition, but good competition.
M.N:
Whats a stoker ?
E.B:
Well a stoker was a hopper thing, it would hold 5 or 6 hundred
pounds of coal and it would last a day or two, you didn't have to
attend to it every day.
M.N:
Who was the first mayor you ever remember ?
E.B:
The first mayor I ever remember was old Mr. Hall, Jim Hall's f ather,
ther was him as I remember Bill Atwood was reeve and Al Kirk
was deputy reeve what ever they called them and now I 've for-·
gotten who followed down the years who followed Hall there was
- I remember - Charlie Price was mayor, Finn Rapochy was mayor,
Holly from the south end he was mayor, Herb Guess was inay�r.
M.N:
E.B:
Oh I guess the majority of them were conservative.
M.N:
Fort Erie has always been a conservative town hasn't it ?
E.B:
(
Most of these guys conservative ?
Yes.
M.N:
Did any of them go on to bigger politics?
E.B:
Well I don;t think so, well Jack Teal was mayor for 13 years, I
think Gerv Fretz was the only one that went on to...... but election
night in Bridgeburg was one of the big nights of the year, I'm tellÂ
ing you, there was more hustle bussel, hustling votes up you know
but I remember as a kid, we used to go down to that town hall at
night, when the polls closed at night- 8: o'clock or what ever time
well by 9 or 9:30 we would have a new mayor and Jack Baker had
the corner store over there, papers and candy, well when you got
the new mayor no matter who it was took us kids over to Bakers
and bought us all candy that was a big big night, thats why you
never forgot those politicians.
M.N:
The politicans were more out for the people then ?
E.B:
Oh yes, but I think on the overall old Bridgeburg was a pretty good
spot to live in, you know we were right in that neck of the woods
you couldn't go any farther because of the river, there was a lot
of commuting back and forth to Buffalo and I know from being
(
in business you take the same business in Bridgeburg or Fort Erie
now and the same business in Toronto, the one in Toronto will do
a lot better, the transport has to come another hundred miles, were
right in the neck, you look at the map.
12
�M.N:
(
There was a lot of hotels down on Courtwright St. do you remem
ber any of those ?
E.B:
Well, yes I remember the BanlE.a House, I remember the BarN�a House
when Bob Beatty run it, thats a long long time ago and we sold
those people coal and that piano we got I bought the piano out
of the Bar"ll�-a House, Bob Beatty piano went to George Seback
and his kids took lessons on it and when they was done I bought
it from short and now Lois has it and my grandson is taking lessons
on it and thats out of the Ban-i e.a Hous�. now the old bucket of
blood up the street I remember it was Mervison Hotel I guess and
I remember when it was Waters Livery Stable everybody that came
to town- you'd ta)_{e your horse and buggy over there and they feed
it and put it in the barn just like you see in the movies"
ll.N:
When did it change over to a hotel ?
E.B:
Well it was always a hotel and livery stable.
M.N:
It was combined type thing ?
E.B:
Yes, I remember old Mr. Carmichael lived out here at the subway
and he drove a little horse and buggy to work every day, he was
(
caretaker at the station down there.
M.N:
The rail road station ?
E.B:
Yes, and he kept his horse in Waters Livery Stable.
M.N:
Was the bucket always a tough place?
E.B:
The bucket was never a tough place, every one thought it was
tough, old Matt Compton said to the gang that came in there
that there dollar was just as good as the other ones, you went there
and had a gooc;l time and everybody knew everybody, and no one
got into trouble, you take Jack Fordham and Red Anger when those
guys were in there hey day, it was a lot of laughs I'll tell you.
M.N:
Where they locals ?
E.B:
Oh they were locals and tougher then whalebone .
M.N:
Where did they work ?
E.B:
Red Anger was the black-smith around town, he was on the raceÂ
track- he was one of the best, Jack Fordham was a engineer on the
Rail Road well when they got into the sauce they were just like
a couple of bulls, I remember one time, our office was just across
the street we come down there and cut through the bank, well
Red Anger and Fordham are in there all loaded up they picked
up a Quebec heater up-it was a thing about so high- they picked
it up and carried it outside and put it on the sidewalk.
13
�E.B:
(
Old Matt Compton was pulling his hair out.
M.N:
Matt Compton got around quite a bit in town ?
E.B:
Matt ian the hotel, Matt and Mary Compton, Sunday was the busy
day. Jack Fordham got drunk one time and Matt had a little safe
every body had these little home safes, and he got up stairs, some
how, and he picked that safe up and carried it out on the verandah
and he dropped it over the end well they called the police and
Chirp went down, heres Jack down on the lawn - and he says what
are you doing Jack- he says I'm just trying to get W.G.R.
Chirp Mathhews is another one to talk to he can tell you more
about it. You talk to Chirp or Gutsty Purpura theres not many
of the old ones left, they 'll fix you up.
M.N:
When did you notice that the town really became a town ?
E.B:
You see I was born and raised here and it made a difference when
you grew up with the town and every body knew every body.
I
remember when the Fleet started I don't know I suppose it
was Jack Anderson who started the Fleet - I remember Oscar JohnÂ
son, P. W. Johnson pumped gas for Gramel they had a Gulf station at
the foot of Courtwright Street and Pee Wee quit and went to work
at the Fleet, he work up there 6 months and then get laid off, he
took up sign painting and he did good, but this is what a lot of them
did when they started out there, wll once it started to roll those
people had a really good job, look at your uncle Al Ried, there all
pensioned off now and I think is one of the best places in Fort Erie
to work maybe in the country, I don't know, they got all the benifits.
and there busy, there trying to keep it going.
M.N:
Was there industries back then that are not now?
E.B:
Oh, a lot of small industries that folded up and got out.
M.N:
Nothing of any size ?
E.B:
Well you take the Mentholatum was big in those days, its closed,
the Jell-o Company was big, big big business, I remember when
they drawed Jell-o - Ernie Young drove a model T truck, drawed
Jell-o up to the Rail Road, they shipped it in cars, and there was
the Markel Electricon Lewis St. well when the Jell-o went out the
Arner went in, do you remember ? And they hired a lot of people,
they did a -pill factory you know but then it folded up and thats
all apartments.
14
�M.N:
(
Big difference in the Rail Road ?
E.B:
Oh, there is no Rail Road, the New York Central is gone,
there was-the round house up on the top end of Jarvis, she's gone,
Orly Johnson was a hogger there, and old Mr. Galvirth lived next
to us, Grandpa Hewell, and Alvin Benner, Ross Brown and all they
did was get engines ready, they had a turn table there, you could
go and watch the engines �urn around and thats all gone.
... well your Dad and Bobby Long, Frenchy-you know all them guys
is done-I don't know what the Rail Road is doing, but it sure slipped
but you stop and think and talk Rail Road why pay rail rates to
ship it into Fort Erie and then you got to unload, say a car of sa.nd
or coal or what ever it is, now a big truck can bring it right up
to your door.
M.N:
Did any one ever think that Fort Erie would expand as much �s it
has ?
E.B:
I often think if my Grandpa Benner could see that Central Ave.
Bridge, see everybody had to go around underneath the Internation
al Bridge that was a busy place evert thing was coming or going
(
you went to the south end of town you had to go the boulevard
I often say if Grandpa Benner could see that bridge, man oh man
wouldn't that have saved a lot of steps.
M.N:
Do you think the town has grown for the better
E.B:
Oh yes, its grown for the better, better in a lot of ways.
M.N:
What do you think about this Regional Government ?
E.B:
Its the worst thing thats happened to anybody, you got no control
over nothing, I mean before we had a mayor - were talking Bridgeburg
now, you had the mayor and council, out here we had Bertie Town
-ship as we was know and you name it we had Fred House, we had
Bruce Finch, we had Orn Teal, we had some awfuly good men out
-here and they run the Township and evry thing went along fine,
and now your in regional- who do you talk to ? You got a regional
council, you got a chairman everything is in the Welland area, I mean
right here you could do this and do that, regional council is the
worst thing that could happen, I said this right from the drop of
the hat.
M.N:
Do you think its the loss of the personal contact?
E.B:
Oh it definitly is, definitly, I mean take for instance you, you want
ed a drain cleaned out or some thing, you called the town ship
office in Ridgeway,
15
�E.B:
(
-and either you went up town and they were out they stop by and
have a visit for 10 or 15 minutes, say what do you want and they
fix it, .or this week or next they send some one out, you can't do
that now, the thing is so big who do you talk to and all they do
is pass the buck, pass the buck.
M.N:
So the local service was a lot better then?
E.B:
Local service was 10 times better than what we got to-day
M.N:
And not as large ?
M.N
Who do you think was the best mayor in town ?
E.B:
I don't know, !mean when you go back, I guess Bill Holley was one
of your better mayors this is years ago, coming up to date your
·
present mayors I would say Jack Teal was one of your better mayors
he must of been, the man held office for 10or·15 years, I don't
know how long.
\
16
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Michael Near
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Ernest Benner
Location
The location of the interview.
Mr. Benner's home on Bowen Road.
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Benner, Ernest
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Ernest Benner's interview. He discusses such topics as:
Bridgeburg
Transportation
Railroad
The Depression
Hotels and Taverns
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Erie Beach
Peace Bridge
Schools
Buffalo
Stores and businesses
Recreation
Politics
The Barnea
Fleet
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
April 15, 1985
1980s
1985
Barnea
Bridgeburg
Buffalo
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
Fleet
Great Depression
hotels and taverns
Oral history
peace bridge
politics
railroad
recreation
schools
stores and businesses
transcripts
transportation
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/8ccc20ea677069d22f0ca6dd02de23d7.pdf
4771d6ea9fca48420a11674ffd171f9f
PDF Text
Text
Michael Near interviewing Mrs. Avis Benner, at her home at 2530
Bowen Rd .
.(
M.N:
A.B:
M.N:
A.B:
M.N:
A.B:
Avis, were you born in the Fort Erie area ?
Yes, it was the Bertie Township then though.
And that was right on the Bowen Rd. at home ?
Right on Bowen Rd. at home.
That was a farm ?
A farm, it was just a acre of land the farm was on another road.
Just an acre there, the farm.
M.N:
Your Mom and Dad had been out there for a while though, hadn't
they
A.B:
M.N:
A.B:
Yes.
Had they come from this area ?
Yes, Mother was from right on Ridgemount, just a little ways from
our place, in fact were I was born that land belonged to my GrandÂ
mother and gave it to Mom and Dad when they were married and
they built a house there.
M.N:
(
Both sides of your family go back into the .... , quite aways into
Fort Erie history.
A.B:
Yes, my Father was from the Garrison Rd. area. His home was on
the Garrison Rd.
M.N:
Did you notice a big difference from living say on a farm then
living actualy living in town?
A.B:
M.N:
A.B:
I didn't like it in town.
Why was that ?
I only lived there about a year, and then we moved out to Cresent,
after we was married, but I didn't like it in town.
A.B:
And now I'm back on the farm.
M. N:
When did you notice the biggest difference from now, say from
living on the farm from when you were a girl and now ?
A.B:
Oh, it was all horses when I was a girl and now it's tractors and
big machinery and even the milking parlours, milking, it's all different,
but it's still work.
M.N:
Dld your dad use horses?
A.B:
He did all his work with horses.
M.N:
Did he ever have a tractor?
A.B:
Just towards the last, but it was all he did it, then my brothers took
over and then they got the bailers and combines. He did this with
horses.
1
�M.N:
(
A.B:
What time period would that be, when he shifted to the tractor ?
I don't know. I was trying to think. It was in the late forties, in the forties.
M.N:
Was the conditions alot tougher then, do you believe - economically
A.B:
Oh, maybe on the farm, it all depends on the farming your in now
the last few years crop farming has been bad but then the milking
you have the cows, the dairy herds, why if you have that, that's
better, you get a lot more for that, the milk that part is a lot better.
M.N:
The farms were alot smaller then ?
A.B:
Yes, they cover more acres now, they cover more acres and they
have more cows. They don't milk by hand then we- they milked
by hand. They was just getting the milkers in, at first they just
by hand.
M.N:
Was there more farmers then ?
A.B:
More that actually farmed around all the land around here was
farmed, everybody farmed, now some of them they don't farm,but around
this area it stayed about the same, some of it isn't.
M.N:
Which school did you go to ?
A.B:
Number 6, Bertie on Ridgemount Road and the school I went to
(
was a one room school With,-it's been gone since they built the
new one. Iwas 12 when they built the new one. I didn't go to it,
I went to high school in Fort Erie but that one burnt down they closed
that one down.
M.N:
How many kids in a one room school house ?
A.B:
Oh, anyweres from, in this one here 28-35, the teacher had the
whole class, all the grades and the older ones helped the younger
ones. You got your work done. If someone was having trouble,
if you could do it you helped them,
did work on blackboard.
M.N:
Did you have to go to High School, were would you go, Fort Erie?
A.B:
I went to Fort Erie then there was one continuation school in
Stevensville but we had to find our own transportation and at
Fort Erie had to pay for our own way there. No bussing, nothing
like that.
2
�(
A.B:
They don't-we had to make our own fun and entertainment, now
they want it all handed to them, if they had to shovel snow, to
skate they won't skate, they want someone to do all that. There
missing out on alot. When they get out they don't know how to
make there own fun.
M.N:
I"m going to skip over to work or World War 2.
M.N:
Did you notice. What did you notice about World War 2, the effect
say upon your life?
A.B:
Well, I guess it was like any other war, you worried, you had friends
and relatives that were in the services and you worried about them.
You were rationed but you made due with what you could get,
but you knew it was for the best.
M.N:
How did you feel about the Germans and Japanese ?
A.B:
They were just our enemies . There was lots of people of German
descent around, we didn't bear any hard feelings towards them
at all, as far as we were concerned, I was-they were-the ones we
were against were the ones that were over there, not the ones
that had been here. Just because there parents were German
(
or something-it didn't- myself it didn't bother.
M.N:
Was there some people it did bother ?
A.B:
No, not that I know of, none that I know, there probably was ,
none that I know of held a grudge that way.
M.N:
Rationing was one of the biggest factors ?
A.B:
Rationing was one of the biggest, we didn't starve , we had plenty,
you had to maybe conserve on one thing and that, but, if you had
alot of it and your nieghbours didn;t, you just. . . . .. .
M.N:
.
What was the biggest thing you noticed about rationing, what
was the biggest article that was short?
A.B:
There was no article that bothered me, I wasn't actualy suffering
or short of anything really one more than others. I just watched.
We just watched what we had. There was only the two of us.
M.N:
Do you think the people on the farm had a advantage over the
town people in food supply ?
A.B:
(
Not really, because it was like-butter or sugar that was rationed,
with the sugar, why they needed, in fact they would use more,
they were more inclined to do there own baking and canning, there
were alot of people in town didn't do canning that they did on farms
3
�(
A.B:
so they would use more sugar then some of the people in town.
And now-maybe the odd one then would make there own butter
but if they had to they could, very few did.
M.N:
Was that done in a hand churn or was there a machine to do that
A.B:
Oh, you mean on the farm
M.N:
Yes
A.B:
It was a hand churn. I remember they have-you can get attachÂ
ments to your electrical things. You can make butter now, but
then it was all-when we made it.
M.N:
Did you feel pride in the service men ? Going off to fight the
Germans and the Japanese ?
A.B:
Oh, yes, yes even those, there was some that was stationed around
here at Niagara Falls, at the power station, even those-they, the
odd time, they do some things that maybe they shouldn't, they
get in trouble, you were still thankfull they were there to protect
that stuff.
M.N:
When the War ended did you notice a change in the attitude of
the people, did things change in the Fort Erie area, say Ridgeway
(
Stevensville, was there a difference between then, say before
the war ?
A.B:
Well, there was alot as far in this area, with the Fleet there was
a lot more money in the area, during the war and right after, then
what there was before but as things died down and the men came
back why jobs were geting scarcer but no I didn't see that much
difference, actualy a different pace pace as far as living, the
price of things was higher and they just kept going up but that
was-but during the war at one time wages was froze, they could'nt
raise the wages.
M.N:
I'll shift a little bit till after the war, the communist started making
big exspansions then, right after the war and it went through some
hard times, like in the 50's the cold war. Was there any, what
was the feelings about the communist ? Were the communist alien
to this area? Did people really no what the communist were doing?
Were they considered dangerous at that time ? During the war
(
or before the war ?
A.B:
Just what we would read more in the paper any actualy being
here, I didn't know any of those you know any, but you read it
in the paper or hear it on the radio you would take a dim view
of it.
4
�A.B:
(
You wouldn't like what they were doing or what you heard but
to have any that was active ones right around here I didn't know
of any of those. I certainaly didn't like what they were doing.
M.N:
There was alot of people who came into the area during the war
and after the war, immigrants and things like that did that make
a big change ?
A.B:
Well, it built up in the, in what was then Fort Erie it didn�t: affect
out were we were because it was farms were we are right now,
out in Crescent were we lived, that built up but its built up more
since we left, it's really built up now, when we left there wasn't
that much.
M. N:
So you see abig difference in the Cresent Park area?
A.B:
Now, then what there was then when we were out there, oh yes.
M.N:
Just housitng ?
A.B:
Housing and streets have opened up that wasn't opened up but
now its all built up, theres differe'nt streets opened up that well
like on our own street there was only maybe 6 houses. When we
first went out there was 3 on our side. When we left some of it
(
had built up,
it started to build up but now its all built up. And
the farm that Ernie's father had on the corner, its not there any
more, its all sub-division and all that. The ground here the farming
area it hasn't built up well, right now you can't build on a farm
land, they won't let you severance, you have to severance a lot.
M.N:
Thats the Green Belt Law isn't it ?
A.B:
I don't know what it is, its for agriculture even now, one time it
was 25 acres but you don't need that now but you can't severance
if its farming, its an awful job, even if its just a lot to build on
yourself.
M.N:
How does that work ?
A.B:
They just won't let you severance it.
M.N:
How does that compare with years ago when the family would
break off a lot, do you agree with that ?
A.B:
I think if you own your farm and I want to give my son or daughter
a lot to build on you should be able to do it.
M.N:
(
The Regional Government thats taken over the Niagara Peninsula
do you notice abig difference in the attitude of the way you lived
back in the forties when there was a lot smaller population and
you knew a lot more people and now it seems you have lost touch
with local government ?
5
�A.B:
Oh, the local government is altogether different, you have lost
touch. You go to them - you've got to go to some o ne else an d
t hen up higher , they don't seem to have much
regional,
authority, it's more
its region al only time you want to do anything ; a permit
to do this, a permit to do that or any other thing .
_
M .N:
People have mentioned to me, for example when Herb Guess was
M ayor you could go to him
more personally and he would listen
to your problems and you could deal more e f fectifly on a more
personal level then you could now. Do you think thats true ?
A.B:
You can go to them now but I don't think they listen and to do
anything like they used to and of course we notice the difference
when it all became Fort Erie- like here-Bertie Township, now it
seems everything goes that way. They don't- it isn't equalized. As
far as I'm concerned they want you to be Fort Erie
but yet your
classed as Ridgeway or Crystal Beach when it comes to your mail
if you put Fort Erie on your mail they won't deliver, although you
are in Fort Erie because when I was on court duty I told them what about living- the address was Stevensville but it was all
Fort Erie and they put it Fort Erie. As far as they were concerned
it was all Fort Erie.
M.N:
Did you, when you were agirl living out in this area, did you consider
your-self separte from Fort Erie , it was another towp, you would
visit, you didn't consider your-self part of that.
A.B:
No, we wasn't part of Fort Erie, even when we went from here to
High School you weren't part of Fort Erie you were Bertie TownÂ
ship but you went to the Fort Erie High School.
M.N:
Do you remember
A.B:
It was B ridgeburg
Bridgeburg?
when I went to High School. It wasn't Fort
Erie H igh School it was
lkidgeburg
High School.
M.N:
13 ridgeburg
A.B:
Bridgeburg.
M.N:
There was other sections of town at that time?
A.B:
Amigari and Fort Erie
M.N:
At that time what would you say was Fort Erie if I asked you at
High School ?
that time ?
A.B:
The South End you would just class as Fort Erie, this end was
Bridgeburg.
M.N:
You must have used the ferry?
6
�(
A.B:
Oh, yes.
M.N:
How much was it on the ferry
A.B:
To go across to Buffalo ? It has been so long ago I forget, it was'nt
much.
M.N:
Was it a good ride ?
A.B:
It was a good ride if you didn't get seasick.
M.N:
Is that right, could it be rough at times ?
A.B:
Oh, yes.
M.N:
What did they do in the winter time when the ice was in the river ?
A.B:
You went across on the dummy.
M.N:
Oh is that right, they had a passenger service?
A.B:
Yes you didn't have to go to Buffalo-you could go by train over
M.N:
Did you notice a big difference when the Peace Bridge was built
A.B:
Oh, yes, traffic, and of course-you had to-when the boat was going
to Black Rock. You could go by dummy or by the boat.
they were lined up to go back on Sundays and sometimes on Saturday.
We had a lot of Americans coming over even then and they were lined
up to go back you had to be there or wait for the next ferry to come.
(
When the Peace Bridge opened you didn't have that. When the Peace
Bridge opened you didn;t have that, eventually the boat quit it did'nt
go anymore.
M.N:
At that time what was your impression of the South End was it a nice
section, was there a lot taverns down there then ?
A.B:
We didn't go to the South End much, the main shopping area was the
North End and that's were we went.
M.N:
That would have been classified as Bridgeburg ?
A.B:
Bridgeburg.
M.N:
So Jarvis St. was more a commercial area were you went for groceries
or food stuffs ?
A.B:
It was all stores, different stores - now what it was like early,
when I was small we did all our shopping in Stevensville. We didn't
shop to much in Fort Erie mainly because it was hard to get to, we
didn't have a car when I was small, reall small and we used to do
our shopping in Stevensville and we still continue, we did our bank-
(
ing and groceries.
M.N:
What was available in Stevensville, a general store ?
7
�A.B:
Two general stores, one had dry goods in it, groceries, the other
one had shoes and you could get almost anything, there was a
(
hardware store and a hotel and two barbershops and a implement
shop, a shoe store.
M.N:
Was Stevensville bigger, then it is now
A.B:
It was just the main street and a, we used to say one railroad
crossing to the other, if you cross one or the other you were
out of the main part of Stevensville, there was a main street
there and the main street - the one store was on main street
they call it Main Street now but the Post Office was on what
is called Stevensville Road now.
M.N:
How often would you go to Stevensville to shop ?
A.B:
Oh, we'd go on Saturday night.
M.N:
Saturday night ?
A.B:
We went Saturday night that was people would meet and visit
the men would go to the barber shop, and have a good visit, a
shave, if they needed a haircut they get that, get the groceries
then we would head for home.
(
M.N:
Would this be a outing in a sense ?
A.B:
Yes that would be an outing, in the winter maybe we did;nt
the men would go and get the grocerie�, if it was nasty we
wouldn't go and get -that was our outing.
M.N:
And that would be people from this area ?
A.B:
It owuld be this area and up the other - like, this side of StevensÂ
ville up towards Welland, they would come and do there shopping.
M.N:
I noticed just down on the corner of Bowen and Ridgemount theres
a quarry, has htat quarry been there a long time? Thats Walkers
quarry I believe.
A.B:
Its Walkers now then it was - belonged to the - its been there a
long time , it belonged to Bertie Township and my Dad ran it for
a while.
M.N:
A.B:
And then . . . . . ..
M.N:
That would be Charles Spear ?
A.B:
(
Oh, did he really ?
Senior.
A.B:
Yes, he ran that for awhile.
M.N:
Would they supply stone for roadways ?
A.B:
For the roads around here, they crush the stone and they started
up when Cresent Park started up.
8
�A.B:
(
They supplied stone for up in there, when it first started and all
these Township roads and repair-the quarry- they got stone from
there, different ones, the teamsters.
M;N:
Hofise land wagon ?
A.B:
Yes, horse and wagon. Thats how they-then they went to trucks.
M.N:
Then Walkers bought them out ?
A.B:
Plyly, had that one, no, he went up farther, Campbells bought
it and then Walkers bought it from him.
M.N:
So that was a small industry for the area ?
A.B:
Yes, well thats, well theres, when I was small it was one-it
wasn't a small industry it was the only one around except for
farming, right close here, there was a lot of teams at that time.
M.N:
At this time, I know this was an influence, did you have a radio ?
A.B:
Yes, we had a radio, the first radio we had, had those horns, like
on a Victrolla.
M.N:
Gramaphone ?
A.B:
And that was, oh maybe sixty years ago.
M.N:
Did that become i important source say as important as the T.V.
(
is to us now ?
A.B:
Oh, yes but you didn't get that much on it, we'd get news and that.
There be programs on you'd listen for .
M.N:
Did you have favorite programs ?
A.B:
Then it was Maggie and Jiggs, that goes a long way back, that was
one they used to like, thats what I say there wasn't a lot of stations
on but a. . ..
M.N:
Were did you get most of the stations from, Buffalo ?
A.B:
Yes, thats- I think it would be I was to young to remember that,
it was just this thing that music came out of and peoples voices
came out of and thats what. . . .
M.N:
When the radio became accepted, like the television we have now
did you look for certain programs ?
A.B:
Oh yes, and especialy hockey games, Saturday hockey games that
was it, but then the radios started to get more stations like you
can now, there would be certain programs and now they have soapoperas that are on television then they was on radio.
(
M.N:
Oh, really ?
A.B:
You followed them, of course I was older then certain times of
the day they were on radio just like on T. V.. In fact when they
first started on T. V. it was some of the soap operas that you
would have on radio
9
�(
M.N:
Theres men like Milton Berle and Red Skelton they carried over
from radio into television is it basically the same thing, they just
sort of shifted?
A.B:
Yes.
M.N:
Do you remember getting your first television?
A.B:
I think we was on Orchard Ave. Ellen was small, about forty years
ago. It was a small one, the cabinet was wook, and it was heavy
but we got a real clear picture, and R. C. A.
M.N:
How many stations could you get?
A.B:
Then it was your Buffalo stations. You had to have a special areial
to get the Toronto stations, it was mainly Buffalo stations.
M.N:
Do you think with our increasing communications, television and
satellites do you think its better now, do you think we have a better
understanding of what's going on in the outer world than we did
before?
A.B:
Oh yes, you get news from the other countries and that you didn't
before - that part - you get more from the newspaper than what
you used to, it was more local news, like here, you get more news
with the television and the radio.
M.N:
I'm going to jump again, inthe early 30's when Prohibition was going
strong in the U. S. did you remember about that time in this area,
was it an effect on the area?
A.B:
Not that I know in this area, not that I know personally.
M.N:
I mentioned it because Fort Erie has a strong connection with that
time?
A.B:
Fort Erie that its self out here in Bertie Township, I didn't come
in contact with that and I know there was a lot of it in Fort Erie
but where and all who were involved I don't know, it didn't effect
me because, we weren't used to it at home.
M.N:
This is a quiet area?
A.B:
Well I wouldn't say it was that, at home we didn't - we made our
o wn fun, we had house dances and card parties, we played cards
you went out.
M.N:
(
Yo u stuck pretty close to this area? HOw often would you go out?
A.B:
You mean how often would we have dances?
10
�(
A�B::
If you wanted to you could go to a dance or a card party every
week.
M.N:
Were would they hold them ?
A.B:
They would hold them, like the dances they would hold in the homes;
the same with the card parties in different homes, from home to
home,
right here in Stevensville they had a hall that they would
hold dances, it was above Spear's garage, Spears garage is still
there but they don't use the hall. There was two halls the other
one they called Litchenbergers hall, if they wanted to put on a
play or anything big they would go there. They used to put on plays
like they do now. The church groups would put on suppers, there
was quite a few suppers they would put on, Church groups would put
on suppers to raise money.
M.N:
A.B:
Oh, square dance.
M.N:
That was a popular style ?
A.B:
(
What kind of music was popular
When I was young it was square dancing.
M:N:
When the big bands came in did you notice that change in the music
was that a popular music ?
A.B:
Well then the square dance music in the homes-people started to
go to other places and you didn't have the square dances, you
don't have them now like they did in the homes, when I was small
thats were they held them, and of course in the summer we used
to go to Crystal Beach thats were we would hear the big bands.
The dance floor was really popular.
M.N:
What was Crystal Beach like then ?
Was it nice ?
A.B:
Oh yes, you could go and spend all day there; just walking around
we used to go at nights when the bands were there; just to listen
to them, you didn't have to pay to go to watch the bands; and
they would have different bands you would go and watch them
they used to come over from the States on the boat; the' bdat
docked up there.
M.N:
A.B:
(
Would that be the Canadiana ?
Yes, and they come across, it was a big thing to watch the boat
come in and Erie Beach , we used to go to Erie Beach quite
a
biL
and then it hasn't been going for quite a while.
11
�(
M.N:
Were you at Erie Beach when it was operating ?
A.B:
Yes, we used to go to Eire Beach more than Crystal Beach,
Crystal Beach was something special, when I was a youngster
M.N:
Could you tell me something about Erie Beach ?
What I would know as the old Dance Hall.
A.B:
Well thats it I was smaller and wasn't interrested in the dance
hall but just in the rides, we would hold our picnics there.
M.�
They had rides at Erie Beach? What kind of rides did they
have ?
A.B:
All the ones they had at Crystal Beach, in fact they had a old
mill there before - you went down a hill into water and then
they had-not as big as the Cyclone at Crystal Beach they had
one that was a little smaller then that, the turns were sharper
I was never on it, I could be wrong but I think it was there before
the Cyclone.
M.N:
When you were little and went to Erie Beach what interested you
most ?
(
A.B:
The rides and the people and the swings ?
M.N:
Was there a lot people ?
A.B:
Oh yes, you had to be there to get your table early, there was a
lot of people from Fort Erie and that would go to Erie Beach,
they were close to Erie Beach thats around here we went there
more than Crystal Beach.
M.N:
Was the grounds kept well ?
A.B:
As far as I remember, I wasn't really interested in the grounds,
I wanted the rides and the swings and that, we always had a lot
of fun at Erie Beach, you see I was older and remember the bands
at the dance hall- I remember more about Crystal Beach because
,
I was older when we went there.
M.N:
We have heard that Erie Beach had its own little train of some sort
that used to take people out along - say from the ferry out todo you remember that ?
A.B:
I remember it but I was never on it. But thats how they would go
from Fort Erie to Erie Beach or I imagine they could come across
on the boat.
M.N:
Did this railroad run right along the river or did it cut through the
parkway?
12
�(
A.B:
I don't remember that part, it was more in the Fort Erie part, I
don,t remember that part.
M.N:
Was there big crowds at Erie Beach ?
A.B:
There was big crowds, just like Crystal Beach now, or when Crystal
Beach was busy you had to wait for the rides.
M.N:
What happened at Erie Beach?
A.B:
I don't know, I don't even know who owned it , I don't know
what happened.
M.N:
Did the depression have a big affect on this area ?
A.B:
I imagine it did like every were else , money was tight, you scrimped
I never went hungry or cold.
M.N:
There was quite a few people in Fort Erie in that situation, were
it was hard times?
A.B:
Thats were-I don't know much about then, as I say we were out here
from hearing there was a lot, there was some in that Depression
that lost there homes, in what is known as Fort Eire , but , I was
on the farm then - it was hard, you didn't have money to throw
{
around, you made do
M.N:
•
During the great Depression in the United States many farmers
lost there land and it was pretty tough for them, was there an
effect like that around here, did anybody loose there farms,
or land?
A.B:
Not that I know ofbecause I think they was - right around were
I lived they all owned there own farms, they were handed down
to Father and son, it wasn't as if they had just gone out and bought
them.
M.N:
This area most of the farmers in this area are familys that have
been here for awhile or knew the familys that had been here for
awhile or are related to the familys do you think that had an effect
the close contact?
A.B:
They, around here the farmers would help with the work or thrÂ
ashing they all worked together , they helped one another in the
harvesting and if they needed help , they would help them, I think
it was more like that in Town your nieghbour - now in some places
(
tyey don't even know there nieghbours.
M.N:
Food supplies, you didn't have the refrigeration , how did you keep
your meat ?
�A.B:
There was a butcher that used to be out in the country, a butcher
that used to come around every week and you would buy your meat.
or you could go to town, there was one who came around to the
houses and thats how we would do it , buy it for the week, you
would have your own chickens and your pigs for the sauges and
then you salted some.
M.N:
There was far more work involved in keeping your food supply ?
A.B:
Oh yes, now you can take - you have freezers, you can freeze it
but then you couldn't.
M.N:
A.B:
Do you think the food was better then say then it is now?
Its fresher.
M.N:
Do you think you have more choice then you did then?
A.B:
Oh yes,
M.N:
In what ?
A.B:
In everything you got more choice - you mean in foods- theres more
variety in friuts, there fruit and vegetables , then you didn't have the
vegeatables in the winter, tyeres more packaged foods of different
kinds, I'm not saying how good they are for you.
(
M.N:
Because of the chemicals they have now ?
A.B:
The chemicals and the sprays, thats it some of them , the apples
you buy in a store now don't taste like the apples you would get
off a tree.
14
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Michael Near
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Avis Benner
Location
The location of the interview.
Mrs. Benner's home at 2530 Bowen Road, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Benner, Avis
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Avis Benner's interview. She discusses such topics as:
Life on the farm
Schools
Recreation
World War II
Communism
Ferries
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Erie Beach
The Depression
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985
1980s
1985
Crystal Beach amusement park
Erie Beach
ferries
Fort Erie
Great Depression
Oral history
recreation
transcripts
-
http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/1c2751df9c6bb647348d63d423317dcc.pdf
78c1904141efd18c3bf40980a0fc2e8c
PDF Text
Text
Beverly Branton interviewing Mrs. Carver, on April 21st, 1985.
The interview is being held at 3801 Farr Ave., which is Ridgewood
Manor, in Ridgeway, Ontario.
(
B.B.:
Hello, Mrs. Carver.
R.C.:
Hello.
B.B.:
Could you tell me the date of your birth, please?
R.G.:
1903, April 9th.
B.B.:
And where was the place of your birth?
R.C.:
Cleveland, Ohio.
B.B.:
How did you come to this area?
R.C.:
Well, my mother came over, come across the border in December
of
I was three years old, I was three in April, and this was December...
••.
B.B.:
1906?
R.C.:
Yes, that would be
.••
and we went to Toronto and then out to Richmond
Hill. My grandfather had a farm out there and we stayed there
for the winter . And then my mother came back into this locality
again where she had all her relatives. Grandfather Climenhage
was born just east of Stevensville a little ways and he married a
lady from over Gormley way and they went on a farm over there
after he was married to her, it was my mother's stepmother.
B.B.:
So you moved onto a farm?
R.C.:
Yes, grandfather had a farm but we didn't. We came back over
here, my mother's uncle, Daniel Climenhage rented a place for her1..
My dad was in the States and
B.B.:
Could you describe the farm to me
like
R.C.:
••.
•.•
do you remember what it looked
•.•
?
In Gormley, it was a big farm, Ithink probably a hundred acres.
And he did mixed farming, he had cows and of course some horses .
� did all his farming with the horses.
after, no that's not right
And then they retired, that fall
my brother Alfred was born, 1912 after
•••
my father died. My father died, was killed on the railroad, in March
1912, and my brother,my youngest brother, was born in July of 1912.
And then in 1913, my grandfather sold his farm and moved into
Gormley, retired.
B.B.:
R.C.:
{
Where is Gormley?
Oh, it's right on number 40, 48 on Don Mills Rd., that runs north
out of Toronto. It's out of Toronto, 26, 27 miles, I think.
B.B.:
Ho w did you come to this area?
1
�R.C.:
Well, because my mother's relatives were over here.
My mother's
brother was over here and she had a sister that was over here and
(
her uncles were all over here. There was Uncle Peter Climenhage
who lived just east of Stenvensville on a farm and Uncle Daniel
Climenhage that lived east of Stevensville over by the Michigan
Central it was then, Michigan Central Railroad.
And most of my
mother's relatives were over here so that's why she came back over
here to stay here.
And when my dad came back well they moved
into the place that the golf links have got it now. It was Albee
Winger's farm but I don't know the golf links, east of Ste: vensville
there. They've taken up a lot of farms
•••
Josiah Winger's farm and
Albee Winger's farm, theres different ones, I just can't remember
them all, but the golf links has taken them all
that we lived that's included.
�P·
And the place
And then in 1910 we moved up to
Stevensville, in town)where Spike Lake lived.
B.B.:
Was that right in the village of Stevensville?
R.C.:
Yes, right next door to the library there.
B.B.:
What was your home like?
Can you describe how it was lighted,
how it was heated?
R.C.:
Oh, coal oil lamps.
Heated with a woodstove.
At night it would
get mighty cold when the woodstove went out.
B.B.:
What was the population of Ste._vensville, approximately?
R.C.:
Oh, I don't know but it was only east and west main streets that
ran through.
The only other street there was, was where the schools
are, the old school, not where it is now, on Airline.
On Airline is
where there were a couple of houses on but outside of that ... Where
Sam House's houseJit) that was a side street but I, when we moved
there and after we got aquaintedJI1 we kne w everyone that lived
in Stevensville but it's grown so much that I've lost track of most
of the people now.
B.B.:
Wby:do you think it's grown so much?
R.C.:
Well, during the war times, the 2nd World War, when the Fleet was
running, there was so many people came in)and it's cheaper to live
in Stevensville then itwas in Fort Erie>and besides the housing in
Fort Erie, they did put up a lot of war time houses down there, but
there were a lot of people came up to Stevensville and settled down
(
there.
Theres some of them still there. It made the town grow.
Of course now they have the color plant there, and they have iron
2
�foundry of some sort a
nl the unit rig is down there.
That is right down
by Uncle Daniel Climenhage...that was Jim Baker's farm where they are
(
on.
B.B.:
Before these factories were in Stevensville what type of employment
did the people have?
R.C.:
There wasn't any right in Stevensville, outside of L lyod Wales...he's a
plumber.
His father before him, Levi Wale had a tinsmith t lfy called it.
He was a tinsmith and he had a store.
That store is still standing on east
Main Street, just east of the corner store there.
B.B.:
What is a tinsmith?
R.C.:
Well, they, I think they did, dealt in tin a lot more then, they didn't have
the aluminum like they have now.
People had tin pails, you had tin dishes
that you cooked in, your kettles, things that you cooked in. If they weren't
iron, they were tin mostly and they'd get holes in them and I think he
was kept busy between eavestroughing, he dealt in that, and mending
almost kept him busy, because he'd do the saudering, he'd sauder the holes
shut.
Milk pails, oh, numerous things, they were tin and they weren't
as su bstantial as the stainless steele and the aluminum that they have
now.
(
Then a little later they got granite but granite you would knock
off, you would chip off, and you'd get holes in your kettles and things7
and life was a lot different than it is now.
B.B.:
Explain more how life was different as you reflect back.
R.C.:
Well, I think children were more contented in those days.
We didn't have
toys like children have now.
B.B.:
What type of toys did you have?
R.C.:
Well, we girls had rag dolls.
B.B.:
Could you describe a rag doll?
R.C.:
Well, it's something like these raggedy-annes only they were printed. I
don't know if any were embroidered.
Some of these raggedy-annes that
you make at home, the features are all embroidered. I have one.
But
those that we had, you know those that you buy in the stores that are
printed, you buy animals such as duck that are printed and that's how
our rag dolls were.
Some of them were a good size almost as big as a
small child. I had some of my dresses from when I was a couple years
oldthat I played with on my dolls.
B.B.:
What other social activities like that did you do; ...in the Stevensville area?
R.C.:
Well, I was pretty small when we lived there. I don't remember there
was any other social activities .
We went to church on Sunday and prayer
meeting night but we kids were mostly contented to play at home or if
3
�we had other kids to play with of course. I don't remember any other
activities that went on for children, not like they have now, nothing like
(
it is now!
B.B.:
Did you move somewhere else?
R.C.:
Oh, yes we moved out to the Bowen Road, the Willick's live in that spot;
it's a different house because we had lived in burned down later.
That's
where we lived in 1912 when my father was killed. He was a cook by
trade so he was all over the place and he was cooking for the bridge gang
on the railroad.
B.B.:
The bridge gang ... ?
R.C.:
They mended bridges. Now they don't go and mend bridges.
were all made of wood before, outside the rails.
The bridges
They drove in great big
posts, like pileing they called it, like great big telephone poles, that they
drove down in the ground and this was the braces they had to put the bridge
on.
B.B.:
Was that done in this area, also?
R.C.:
Yes there's a bridge down, you know where Sider Road is, up Bowen Road
the Sider Road, well it's down below there and then there's one up by,
we always called it by Ben Deans, that's Winger Road.
B.B.:
Why did you call it Ben Deans?
R.C.:
Well, Ben Dean lived on the corner and he had a saw mill.
That was on e
activity, he had a saw mill, way back, well we lived in town in 1910.
And
there was another bridge, I guess right above, no right there by our place,
where I lived; just west of Stevensville there was another bridge; and
there was another one up above the church, the Brethern in Christ Church,
up by Burger Road.
And then my father's cars, boarding cars had moved
from Stevensville up to Dain City and dad had ordered some things from
Bon's, Lyn Bon's father was a baker and he had a bakeshop there on the
corner where Lyn Bon lived.
Later on then it was the Post Office, that
was - Ly.nBon and his wife had the post office.
And Pat Robinson, he owned
the store, down on the corner where the restaurant is now and one or
the other hadn't sent the. . order to him.
And he came down at night
on the little one man hand car to look after it.
And my mother wasn't
home she was down at her brothers, at Emerson Climenhages and so he
had to go back that night.
And it was terribly fogy and he didn't see the
light of the train, it was a passenger train, he had been warned but he
had 40 minutes and he thought he could make it
-::-:'r· Dain City
by that
4
�time but it was foggy and it was March and the rails were slippery
with frosty, and he didn't make it.
He only r:iade it about two miles
west of where the church is, Brethren in Christ Church, when the
train hit him, so...
B.B.:
It was just after that you moved to Bowen Road?
R.C.:
We lived on Bowen Road then.
Then my mother's health broke down,
the next spring, after my youngest brother was born and so some
of her uncles tooks some of the family.
Sally Climenhage's had
my other sister and my sister and Uncle Sim Siders, had her twin
brother Emerson and my brother John that lives here now was at
Uncle Peter Climenhages and she took me with her to Markham
she went over to grandfathers in Markham, and took me over there,
and she had an Aunt Katie Laymen, that I had never saw before
·
and she was deaf, and I went to her place, and I got so homesick
I thought I was going to die.
That was a bad summer for me.
B.B.:
When did you move back?
R.C.:
We came back in the fall, time for school, again and my mother's
uncle rented the house where I lived in, where I came from, just
west of Stevensville.
B.B.:
Where did you go to school?
R.C.:
Oh, I went numerous places because I went and stayed with different
people and worked. And my brother John, was went to a cousin
of my mother's on a farm, he was at Warren Wingers for quite a
few years.
And I worked.
and went to school.
I washed ba by diapers and washed dishes
So that way I was around different schools.
I started school down at Nimber
7
and then of course we moved
upto Stevensville and I went to Stevensville school and I went to
Number 8 school in Bertie and I went down along the boulevard,
I don't know what number that was, I forget but it was down along
the boulevard. I worked for Charlie Wales when they had a small
baby and then they had another small child, she was maybe two
or so.
B.B.:
Why
R.C.:
Well they were all in Bertie Township.
were the schools called by numbers?
townships now.
Now we have regional schools, regional...it's all
Fort Erie, regional.
(
You see we don't have the
But then it, we went in the township schools,
Bertie and Wainfleet, Crowland and Willoughby and then...those
are all the eastern ... Humberston. I didn't get that far though.
I didn't get up that far though. I went to these eastern schools more.
5
�B.B.:
What do you remember of your school days?
R.C.:
Well, they were all one room schools, all but the Stevensville school.
Stevensville had two floors.
(
The junior grades were down below
and the upper grades upstairs but they went by classes then - primer
class, then junior 1st and senior 1st and all the way up to junior
4 and senior 4.
Then they tried entrance.
I got as far as Junior 4th.
I never got that far.
But I wasn't a good stude�t to start with
and then moving from school to school.
B.B.:
How would you get to school?
R.C.:
Walk.
B.B.:
Was it a distance?
R.C.:
Sometimes it was.
Well when we went to Stevensville school we
walked from Bowen Road in. I suppose that's maybe a mile or a
mile and a quarter or something.
8 we had a mile or so.
And when we went up to Number
We never had, I don't think we ever had any
more than a mile and a half or so to go to school at any place.
B.B.:
What were the roads like?
R.C.:
Snow up to your... up to your hips just about sometimes.
and south roads always drifted in badly.
and overshoes.
(
The north
And we didn't have snowsuits
We had whole knit stockings; they'd get packed all
in with snow; of course they were wool, they'd absorb the moisture .
When we got to school you'd brush it off as the best you could and the
wool would absorb the moisture, more or less, you wouldn't sit with
wet legs like you would with cotton stockings.
And heavier shoes,
we wore the heavier shoes then what anyone wears now, outside
of the men's workshoe.
They were more on that order, not quite
as big but they were heavier shoes.
And they kept them greased
so that they would shed the water.
B.B.:
What did you grease them with?
R.C.:
Well, just depended.
Some people I guess, could afford to buy something
from the store that, they had a lot of harness grease and things
that the men treated their harness with, to keep the moisture off
and keep it from rotting and falling apart.
The harness was made
of leather but oh, the shoes were all leather then too.
They were
real leather, they weren't artificial like it is now.
B.B.:
Where would you buy your shoes?
R.C.:
Well, Pat Robinson had shoes there.
pretty well partitioned off, I guess.
He had a general store, now it's
The restaurant in one part and
there's a hair dresser in the south part.
But he had the south part
6
�with dry goods and shoes and you could buy almost anything there.
And then 'round to the part that the door that faces west, that was
(
the grocery store.
B.B.:
What could you buy in the grocery store in comparison to what you
can buy in them today?
R.C.:
Well, not any greens.
Not any produce like you buy now.
Everything
was canned... oh, they use to buy things in big barrels then, you
bought in bulk.
Sugar was in bulk, brown sugar was in bulk, soap
flakes came in bulk later on.
B.B.:
Soap flakes... what... ?
R.C.:
Well, like our dried soap now, it's crumbled now, it's more in a powdered
nowbut then it was in flakes.
B.B.:
You mean to wash clothing with?
R.C.:
Yes.
And soda bis quits came in big barrels, cheese was in great
big...I don't know how much they would have weighed... great big
blocks and they had a big, look like almost a meat cleaver, the big
knife that it was cut with.
You'd fasten it on its side so you, you
could lever it to cut big chunks of cheese.
different then they are now!
(
Oh, stores were a lot
You didn't go around and help yourselves
like you do at the self-serves now.
A clerk waited on you.
B.B.:
A clerk would take you to the food?
R.C.:
Well they'd get it.
They had to cut the cheese, they had to. : and
.
as far as meat, I don't remember any meat.
You had to go to a
butcher shop to get meat.
B.B.:
Where was the butcher shop located?
R.C.: I don't remember that we had a butcher shop in town then. There'
butchers outside of town.
Charlie Burger was a butcher and had
a butcher route, a meat route that he went twice a week in the
summer time .
And then, after he quit Hart Fretz was a butcher
for years.
B.B.:
The meat route ... how would he deliver his meat?
R.C.:
Well, he had a route all the way from Stevensville to Fort Erie.
He pedalled in Fort Erie.
And Alvin Lapp, later on, later years
with a truck but these men had horses.
B.B.:
How would he carry the meat?
R.C.:
Well, they had a big covered wagon and it had sort of racks on the
sides where he kept his tools, his knives, his cleavers and meat saw,
and paper to wrap it in.
They didn't really wrap it they just give
you paper to carry it in the house in.
And he cut the meat, cut
7
�what you wanted.
.
B.B.:
R.C.:
(
Would he go house to house or would he just.. ?
Yes, usually when he came down through he'd stop, Charlie Burger had
a whistle and he'd stop and blow his whistle.
Oh, and Rub Noyes
did too, he went on the meat route too, for quite a long time.
My brother John did too, he pedalled meat to Fort Erie and on
down through Cresent Park and all down through there for quite
a few years until he had his own meat market in town, in this
town.
B.B.:
Do you remember the Cresent Park area...what it looked like?
R.C.:
There was only a few houses along the lake I think, in Cresent
Park area years ago and Erie Beach, you see they had a beach
with a lot of rides and things there, Erie Beach.
B.B.:
Do you recall that?
R.C.:
Not very much. I very seldom got to anything like that.
didn't have any convenience to get anywhere.
We
We never owned
a car, we never owned a ...that's my parents I'm tailing about
not... after I was married, my husband had a car when we got
married.
(
He had a Model T, Ford. I learned how to drive on
a Model T. Ford.
B.B.:
What was that like?
R.C.:
Well, you operated it with your feet.
Describe that?
It was almost like a gear
shift car now only you didn't have any gear shift, you had a hand
lever for brake but you also had a foot pedal for brake too but
you operated the reverse and the go ahead with one pedal, the
clutch pedal.
B.B.:
Did it take you a long time to learn how to drive it...was it difficult?
R.C.:
No, no.
B.B.:
What was your husbands occupation?
R.C.:
He worked on the railroad.
He was a railroad man for 40 years�
s ection labourer.
B.B.:
What is that.
?
R.C.:
Well they packed the ties all by hand, and they put in new ties by hand,
and they put in, they didn't have any derrick to lift it, nothing.
Two men took a hold of them with tongs and they had to use
(
a , I can't even remember what it was, to pick the stones up
in between to get it clear so they could slide a tie underneath
the rails.
Where they'd have to have new ties they'd have to
put them in by hand.
8
�B.B.:
What railroad did he work for?
R.C.: He worked for New York Central. He worked for, it was Michigan
(
Central first and then I don't know, they went bankrupt or so mething
and New York Central took it over.
B.B.:
What route did they have?
R.C.: Well it runs from Fort Erie on, all the way to Windsor but of course
he had, first long they had a section, a section house up by House
Road and he went back up there to go to work.
And there section
ran east a ways and then west but later they lengthened the sections
out and went all the way to Fort Erie and he had to drive to Fort
Erie to go to work.
But now they do everything by machines.
They
pull the spikes out of the ties, you know that hold the rails, they'd
pull them up and they'd take the ties all up from underneath all
by machine.... [*som�nnP> at door]. .. excuse me ... groups now and they'd
boarding cars there in Stevensville on the siding and they'd come
through in big groups, the men, and just work in big groups, and
the machinery they have now is amazing, and the men did that all
by hand when my husband worked on the railroad.
B.B.:
(
Do you remember approximately what year the machinery came
in?
R.C.: That came in, pretty well, most of it, of course they had some.
They had the air packer, arid com presion to pack ties with but I
don't think he ever used that.
things like that then.
It was only the extra gangs that had
But he got off the railroad, retired in '6 1
and it was after that that they, well they still co me in big gangs
buth they don't have section men, in sections anymore like they
use to.
Because they don't do it by hand anymore.
They do it by
all, these big gangs, they do it all over, and they just come through
in spasms.
.�
B.B.:
But there's an inspector that ·goes over the railroad every
day or so, they have a ·mototcar.
Did the depression affect the work of the railroad ?
R.C.: Oh, it sure did!
B.B.: In what way?
R.C.: My husband, well they only worked three days a week. I don't know
if they split the gang up, I don't remember that, if they split the
gang up and three men worked three days and the others worked
(
three days, I don't know if they did it that way or not, or if they
only worked the three days.
But he only worked three days a week
for a whole year and we had a big lot.
And we raised our own vegetables
9
�and things and I canned everything, everything that was cannable.
And we had our own pigs, we had a cow and my husband kept the
(
calf 'till fall and butchered the calf, the cow would have a calf
in the spring and then in the fall he'd butcher the calf and we
had some chickens and we had some ducks, couple of years there
when the depression was so bad and we lived pretty well. I made
my own butter.
B.B.:
How did you make your butter?
R.C.: Well, I had a churn. An old dash-churns.
And I'd bake my own bread
mostly during·the depression and we had two children during the
depression.
And those two children, wasn't able to pay the doctor
until after the depression was over.
B.B.:
Did you have your children at home?
R.C.: Yes. I had them all at home except the youngest one. I couldn't
get a nu rse to come to the house anymore so..a practical nurse.
B.B.:
Why?
R.C.: Well, the lady I had that came for most of the other children, her
mother had cancer and she was sick and she couldn't come.
She
had to nurse her mother but...
(
B.B.:
What is a practical nurse?
R.C.: Well, she's not a trained nurse, she's just a practical nurse.
got her training through practice and not schooling.
She
And I went
Mrs. Pages there i n town she a sort o f nursing hone then.
to
She took
quite a few maternity cases at that time.
B.B.:
Oh, describe that home.
Where was it located?
l_l.C.: Right there in Stevensville, the Edgar Page house. Do you know
where the United Church is there in Stevensville...oh just second
house I guess from south of the church of the United Church.
And
she had a big room, I think they might have taken a partitian out.
She had four beds in there.
B.B.:
You'd go there as soon as you went into labour... and she was...?
R.C.: U-hum, I had my youngest child there and then I was there for ten
days, you stayed in bed for ten days in those days.
So I was in bed
for ten days and then I went home.
B.B.:
Did the doctor come there?
R.C.: Oh, yes. Doctor Buell was sick that time so he couldn't deliver.
(
He delivered all the rest of my children, my twins too.
My twins
were born at home. One weighed 8 and a half and the other 6 pounds.
They are now
53
years old.
10
�B.B.:
Did it cost to go to a home, to have your children?
R.C.: Well, a little bit more than I had at home. I don't think they paid
(
$15 tbr
anymore than
a single delivery at home.
Then of course
we'd have the practical nurse for ten days but she only charged
a dollar a day.
B.B.:
What was her job?
R.C.: Well everything, not just nursing. She kept house. She had everything
to do, same as the mother was up and going.
B.B.:
She would be there twenty-four hours a day?
R.C.: Oh, yeah. Of course, I don't think I ever got the nurse up. I usqally
looked after my own babies at night.
Oh, I suppose if they cried
too much but I don't remel'!lber any of them crying much in the
night. I'd always have them in the bed with me and I'd nurse them
and looked after my own.
B.B.:
We'd been talking about the Depression a little earlier. If a Depression
ever did come again how do you see people being able to survive?
R.C.: That, I just can't even forsee. I, there's too many of the young people
that wouldn't have a clue to going about doing things.
Carol, my daughter Carol was there in
(
was.
My water was all froze up.
'7 7
For instance,
when that bad blizzard
So I melted snow.
I melted snow
because, then I had a bathroom for years I didn't have a bathroom,
we had the outside toilet.
And it was after Dave was gone the boys
built, put a piece on and I had a bathroom.
Well the first'ijintet I
had it, it froze up, everything froze up and so I got a little snow to
flush the toilet and for, not for drinking or anything like that, but
had to carry the water for that.
But anyway my daughter was down
from Toronto and she had her friend with her, but her friend was
a city boy, and she said if anything happened, she said he wouldn't
have a clue what to do and then she called him by name and said,
" Would ya", and he said, "No, he wouldn't even think of melting
snow."
And this is just a for instance. I mean there's an awful lot
that would never even think of doing something like that.
never had to.
They
We've had an area of, of a lots of money and kids
never wanted for anything from there on and oh, well they didn't
see any reason for economizing or making things do, or patching
clothes or canning fruit or any of the rest of it.
(
I canned about
75,
We did all our canning .
80 quarts of tomatoes in the summertime.
family of nine children and people gave me clothes.
I had a
I made everything
from moccasins for the little folks on the floor to, I took my husbands
11
�wool underwear, it use to be a ribbed underwear
•••
course sort· of
•••
they
don't wear things like that now either, but then they did, be was an
(
outside man, be worked in all types of weather and I dyed them. The
first winter when my twin boy was on the floor, the one that could walk,
I dyed them, I dyed ibe suit blue and the other one red, and I made him
short pants and a like a T-shirt, a jersey, and I embroidered a blanket
stitch around the collar and that's whata he wore the first winter to
keep him warm while he was on the floor.
B.B.:
How did you dye it?
R.C.:
Well, we bought dye that you boiled, not Rit it was the other, I can't
think of the name of it
•••
when I want to think of things I can't
my mind
•••
sits do wn on me.
B.B.:
You made moccasins. How?
R.C.: Somebody gave my husband a sheep-lined vest, the wool, sheep wool.
So I took that apart, he didn't wear·it, so I took that apart and made
moccasins out of it.
The first pair I made the child couldn't get his
foot in it, the sheeps wool was too thick, so I took it apart again and
took the wool, just left some on it, sewed them together again, fit fine.
B.B.:
(
Did you se w them by hand?
R.C.:
U-uhm. I made coats and hats and
•••
I made about everything there was
to be made.
B.B.:
Did you sew them all by hand2
R.C.:
No, I had a sewing machine, a peddle machine, I didn't have one electric.:
We didn't have electric then, we had gas.
Gas lights and the trains
would shake our mantles off when the trains, we lived right by the
railroad, and the trains would shake our mantles off, we would buy
a new mantle and have beautiful lights and in a day or so they'd drop
off the side and hang there again, a light would be so poor.
B.B.:
What is a mantle?
R.C.:
That was what we'd have to put on, on the gas, oh, it look like knit,
I don't know what it was made of, something that didn't burn up. But
the shaking of the train would, it would break off there at the top, it
would hang.
B.B.:
What about the
•••
you went through two World Wars
•••
?
R.C.: I was just young yet, the 1st World, War. I don't remember things get ting
as bad, things weren't rationed 1st World War like it was the 2nd World
War.
B.B.:
Things weren't quite as bad as it was the second time.
How were they bad in the 2nd World War?
12
�R.C.:
Well, things were rationed, but ter was rationed, sugar was rationed,
gas was rationed.
(
B.B.:
How much was it rationed?
R.C.:
Well, you had to have tickets, you had books of tickets and you were
just allowed so much each week, you couldn't go and get what you wanted,
you were just allowed so much. I didn't have any trouble with the butter
because we had our own cow, and she was only seasonal, you know she'd
go dry, so I just didn't.
Of course, I'd save my ration tickets from when
I had but ter until when she was dry and I didn't have but ter so that they
I could manage.
B.B.:
Could you describe the process of making the butter?
R.C.:
Well, we had separater, which separated the cream from the milk.
You turned the handle, we had that to wash everyday too, the separater,
and then you let your cream sour, you don't leave it long enough to get
ransid you just leave it long enough to sour and then we'd put in in the
churn, this dash-churn, you'd have to
•••
when the cow was first fresh
the butter would come quickly, it didn't take much, but when she got
old milking, just before she'd go
dry and have another calf you could
hardly get the butter to come. You'd churn and churn for maybe an
(
hour and a half before you'd get it.
But it was good butter.
butter!
It got to be pretty monotonize.
We had a jersey cow and it was really good
And of course we had the but termilk. Some of the children
liked the buttermilk to drink and some of our neighbours liked the but ter
milk to drink, too. What we didn't drink or use up we gave to the pigs,
the milk, the separated milk we gave to the pigs. Always kept fresh
milk out for the children, I never gave them the separated milk. Now
they buy skim milk. It's not even as good as that milk was, that was
just separated but now they add water to it. That's awful stuff that
skim milk!
difference.
If I hadn't had my own one day I guess I wouldn't know the
People don't know the difference.
What they don't know
don't hurt them.
B.B.:
We don't know what we are missing.
R.C.:
But when you had your own it kind of spoils you.
B.B.:
What about refrigeration
R.C.:
Oh, I didn't have any refrig
•••
?
•••
not even an i•ce box when I had my children.
I had to boil formula twice a day.
(
B.B.:
How:did you keep your meat?
R.C.:
Oh, we didn't buy meat.
I had to raise them the hard way.
Our pigs, you see we'd butcher pigs in the fall
Oh, it wouldn't be in the fall, sometimes he butchered on New Years
13
�Day. It depended on the weather. If the weather set in, was really
cold why we butchered earlier but if we had warmer weather, because
we didn't have any refrigeration
(
•••
but he salted all his meat down, put
it in the barrel with salt. Salt bririe, so it would hold an egg.
B.B.:
What do you mean?
R.C.:
Well, you put an egg in and if it came up to the top and showed, you
know it wouldn't sink, it would float on top and show the egg about the
size of that, that was strong enough and he'd have his meat packed in
a barrel and he'd pour that brire on it, fill the barrel up with brine.
B.B.:
How long would that keep the meat?
R.C.:
About six weeks he would leave it in and then he would take it out
and we would smoke it. He'd take it out and hang it for about a week
and then it would be dry, good and dry and then we'd smoke it. We had
a smoke house and that was usually my job.
B.B.:
Describe your job and the smoke house?
R.C.:
Well the smoke house looked almost like the toilet, it wasn't much bigger,
a bit, not as tall and wider. And it had a bar across, sometimes two
bars depends on how much meat you had. And we had meat hooks, steel
meat hooks that we hung it up with and then I usually used an old tub,
a big tub and I didn't let it burn, the wood burn you had to keep sawdust
(
or shavings or something on it that would smoulder. Or you usually
had a bag of sawdust and if did burn up through I'd have the sawdust
on and that would sort of smother it your know. You'd have the fire
underneath so you'd put something on top so it wouldn't blaze but it
would smoke. The more smoke you could make the bet ter it was. I
forget how many days we would smoke, five or six days I guess.
B.B.:
What did that do to the meat?.
R.C.:
That saves it. And I had bags, feed bags that I bought, not the big course
ones but cot ton ones and put the bags over it and tied it shut so the
flies wouldn't get at it after it smoked and hang it in the cellar.
B.B.:
How did you do your washing?
R.C.:
Well, when I had four girls I washed by hand, washboard. And then when
I had, just before I had the twins, I got a washing machine, a hand washing
machine that I
•••
you washed more clothes with the strength you used
you know, that took a lot of strength. Sometimes I thought I would
rather do it by hand but then you'd get along faster and then I had the
(
hand wringer too so I could wring them out. I didn't have to wring them
by hand. And when did I get my gasoline one
•••
I guess I got thegasoline
one in between the twins and when Kim came. When I had the twins
14
�I had six children and when I had Ken and I hadKen and John during the
Depression. They were just sixteen months apart.
And then I got the
machine with the gasoline holder, it was like aelectric machine except
it had gasoline holder underneath, it was fastened to.the frame underneath
and I had a foot crank to crank it, you had to crank it like a Model A
Ford or the Model T's rather. Well we cranked our Model T or Model
A Ford too, the first one we had. We had to crank that. And it use
to backfire and I was sure I had to get my foot over the bumper so that
I could reach it to crank it, 'cause I was too short to pull it up if I didn't
get close by and yet it would backfire and I'd have to get away in a
hurry or I'd get my leg broke. Quite a few people got wrists broke and
then their leg broken, you know get wacked with that...oh, it'd come
back with an awful force when it backfired if you didn't get your cranked
pulled out far enough. And then the second Model A that they got,
it was a self starter. That I appreciated very much, that and the washing
machine.
that!
And then when we got the electric in I sure was happy over
No more having to crank that over.
B.B.:
R.C:
Yes, by that time there were.
B.B.:
Where did...did they run by gas?
R.C.:
• 1
Were there many people who had cars?
Yes, they ran by gas but they had carbide lights, the first ones.
Never
any that Dave had. They were before that yet.
B.B.:
What are carbide lights?
R.C.:
Oh, I can't tell ya, I can't explain it. Carbide is something, I think they
�n-batteries if I'm not mistaken, I might be wrong but I think that' s
wha :.t the carbide is.
B.B.:
Where would you get your gas?
R.C.:
Well, there were gas stations where you'd get your gas. Not numerous
like they are now.
B.B.:
Where were they located in Stevensville?
R.C.:
Right there by the railroad, right there by the creek there where Keith
Winger is now. I think that was the first and only one, that was around
for years.
B.B.:
Where they in pumps like we see now?
R.C.:
Not the automatic ones like they are now. Stevensville didn't have
any electric either, it was years before, but I can't tell you what year
(
they got electric in Stevensville.
B.B.:
Why were they so late in getting electric?
15
�R.C.:
Well, they would have had to bring the electric up from the Falls.
They had to put all those poles in and string all that wire. Ridgeway
(
was on Niagara, Canadian Niagara, and I don't know which way that
came, I don't know if it came on up Stevensville
we had hydro in
•••
Stevensville at that time. Their on Canadian Niagara, too, now.
B.B.:
Do you remember what year the hydro came in?
R.C.:
No, I don't remember the year that it came to Stevensville.
Of course
we didn't get it up there wahere we until my John was two years old,
he was born in 1936 so it was 1938 when we got it, up through the country
there where we were. There were quite a few that run through:the
different places in the country that were getting it but you had to get
so many subscribers before you'd get it, so many that would take electric
v
before they'd bring it up. Sure was a happy day when it came!
I think
I appreciated the electric more than anything.
B.B.:
The township was Bertie Township, do you remember anything of where
that was located, where they had council meetings or anything in that
way.
R.C.:
I think they had council meetings mostly in Fort Erie if I'm not mistaken.
They could have had some here in Ridgeway but I think, I think Fort
(
Erie was the, where the council meetings were. Fort Erie was in Bertie
Township, all this area. The townline which now is Netherby Road that
was between
and Bertie, that was the town
.•.
.•.
and then up farther it
was between Humbersone, no Humberston run the other way, it was
between Crowland and Bertie. And then of course Humberston was
divided, I can't tell you where that road is, I can't explain it to you if
you don't know the area, I can't very well explain it to you. But Bertie
was a big township, 'cause it took in the three big corner here. And
Wainfleet was a big township.
Willouby, some of them weren't quite
so big.
B.B.:
Did you notice a change when it switched from the township.
R.C.:
Not personally, no. I , maybe the businessmen or some of the others
might have noticed but I didn't. Personally I didn't notice the difference.
Only I didn't want them to change Stevensville and name it Fort Erie.
Now they have Stevensville, and Fort Erie on the signs. They wanted
to make it all Fort Erie 'cause they call it Greater Fort Erie, you see,
(
and they wanted to change it, they wanted to abolish all these names,
Ridgeway, Stevensville but the businessmen wouldn't hold still for that
and I'm happy they didn't. I said as long as Llyod Wale lives I don't think
they'll change it. So, I don't know if there's anything else... Fort Erie
16
�was, or Bridgeburg was a railroad town, that was the most of the, there
was no Fleet and a lot of those busnesses weren't there then.
(
And there
was a big round house there in Fort Erie just off of Phipp Street, where
you go in on Phipp was the west end there.
B.B.:
A round house
?
R.C.:
Where they mended the er:igines, where they were repaired and they
..•
had a turn table, they put the engine, drive the engine on there and
turn it around so it'd go back the other way. I think that was run by
hand, the first long before they got electric.
When my aunt lived in
Fort Erie I don't think they had electric yet and that was oh way back
quite awhile ago
•..
! can't remember what year that would be, I was a
small girl yet, anyway.
That left a big hole there. I think, which factory
is built there where the long house was
the west end of Phipp
.••
Fort Erie? Do you?
the one there on Phipp Street,
.••
I can't remember what it is?
Do you live in
Well you should know what plant it is on the west
end of Phipp Street.
B.B.:
I know the plant you are speaking of but my
..•
R.C.: I can't remember what the name of it is. Over on Jarvis is the pharaceutical
my son works there, one of my sons Ken.
(
immensely since those days back there!
But oh, Fort Erie has grown
We use to drive to Fort Erie
the road came down and it 'cross , came cattleways across the railroads
and it was the Bowen Road that's where the old Bowen Road, that street
is, Bowen, that ran straight up through and
.••
B.B.:
Straight up through where...?
R.C.:
Up where the golf liks is now. It went straight up through there.
do you know where Pettit Road is, up the Bowen Road
And
and over when
you're going down, over to the right, or to the left, there was a school
house. !guess it's gone there now
••.
and that's where the Bowen Road
went down past that school house and cut straight down through and
met an Bowen Street, they call it Bowen Road don't they, they call
it the Old Bowen Road, ya. It joined on to that.
And I was scared to
death to go over the railroad there because it was on a slant and there
were two railroads there right together, Canadian National that was
theG'rand-Trun.Ck-
�hJHh the
Michigan Central and there was lots of trains
in them days! Didn't have any buses, didn't have any trucks, you know
these big transport trucks, wasn't any of them on the roads.
(
B.B.:
Do you remember the opening of the Peace Bridge?
R.C.:
Oh, yes!
I was married then and my husband bought his grandfather's
17
�house and that was the one we moved into in 1913, when we came back�
you know when I said my mother was in Markam, we moved into that
house and then we were there for a year or so and then we moved to
(
another place and ended up by the church where the parsonage is now.
We lived up there for eight years. That was the longest we Hived in
any place. Any way, what was I saying
.••
?
B.B.:
About the Peace Bridge?
R.C.:
Oh, yes I think that was in 1924 it was opened wasn't it?
B.B.:
'27 I believe.
R.C.: '27? I thought it was when my old or second child was just a baby.
I might be wrong on that but I thought that's when it was, when the
Prince of Wales came over, he cut the ribbon.
B.B.:
Were you there?
R.C.:
No. I wanted to go so bad, I just couldn't stand it to think I couldn't
.
go. My husband wasn't as enthusiastic about it as I was. Said you 'M>Uldn't
get anywhere near it, you wouldn't see it anyway.
B.B.:
Do you remember your first time driving over the bridge once it opened?
R.C.:
No I don't remember that but it was years before I got a chance to go
across on the Peace Bridge. I don't know if I'd been over on the car
before 1945 when I took treatment over in Buffalo for cancer, I had
(
a cancer operation and took treatment in Buffalo. And I'd drive to Fort
Erie myself, that's why I didn't go to Hamilton.
We had the Model A
Ford at that time and I just thought it was too big of an undertaking
to drive to Hamilton myself andDave would have to take a day off,
and we could hardly afford that so I drove to Fort Erie and go across
on the bus. And take a street car to General Hospital.
B.B.:
What type of treatment?
R.C.:
They called it X-ray treatment.
B.B.:
Can you see between the village of Stevensville, and Bridgeburg, Fort
Erie was there a big difference between them as you compare the way
life may be in the village...'1>
R.C.:
Yes,theyhad facilities that Stevensville didn't havP-,. for years. I don't
know. Aunt Esther had a bathroom. They became a electric. 'Cause
Aunt Esther had a bathroom
•.
Those old bathrooms were something
too they were so different from what they have now.
B.B.:
(
Describe them.
R.C.:
Well the tank that you have behind your toilet hung up on the wall up
here
•
.
I think you might find some of them in Toronto yet if you get
into some of them old, old places. Because when Evelyn lived on Church
18
�Street they had that sort of a bathroom there, they were something.
Aunt Esther may have had electric I'm not sure about that.
(
She did
have a bathroom so they must have had electric and I don't know they
may have had septic tanks, I can't tell you that. But they had water,
they had water to flush so they must have had electric. Anyway they
were clumsy looking things but it was better than going outside. In
the winter time it'd get so cold you'd forget what you went for.
And then the electric lights, when I first went to Aunt Esther's in 1918
to work in Welland they only just had a µill cord light they didn't have
things the way it is now. They just had you switched it on you know
and the bulb, the bulbs were nothing like they are now, they were so
you could see the wires inside of them and they were well they weren't
big bulbs like thE.y
are, they didn't have the watts that they have now.
So they couldn't have had the power or something, I really don't know,
t a
about that. But I rem ember
o d light she had there in the kitchen
� 1J
in Welland and they just had the pull cords in the bedrooms and everything
too. And that's all, well we didn't have any in the kitchen but we had
in the bedrooms upstairs, we just had the lights in the ceiling, to turn
them on separately. We didn't have any outlets. When we got the electric
(
I was satisfied to have that much. I didn't insist on a lot of outlets.
I had one in the kitchen and for the washing machine and that was it.
B.B.:
What about the telephone...when did that come,'?to Stevensville?
R.C.:
They had telephones, they had telephones back in 1912. I remember
Emerson phoned over to my grandfather to say my father was gone.
They had telephones back in 1907 when my twin brother and sister were
born. 'Cause granddad sent my mother over here on the train and she
called from Stevensville to her brother to come and get her so we had
phones then, so I don't know, I don't remember when they got the phones.
B.B.:
R.C.:
Did you have a phone in your home?
. No.
We din't have a phone in our home until we moved up across the
road from the church there, which is the parsonage now. They thought
we were so far from the town, so far from the doctor and everything
that they put the phone in. That was mother's relatives that did that
too.
B.B.:
Where was the phone located before you had one in your home that
you would go use?
(
R.C.:
There was many close by up there.
B.B.:
When they contacted you about your dad what phone did they use then?
19
�R.C.:
(
Well it W§J.8 called Welland County, it was Welland County System ; it
wasn't Bell. It was years later that Bell bought out Welland County.
B.B.:
Where was the office located in Stevensville?
R.C.:Well, the central office was
••.
I don't know where it was before Uncle
Andrew Saylor had it. My mothers aunt and uncle had the central office
and at the first over, when you go to Stevensville, Alvin Siders live
there now, the first house over the railroad , the Canadian National
Railroad, to your right. There was a big window in the front and that
room was the telephone office. Alvin has taken the hall out, you came
into the front door and there was a hall and you came into the front
office and on into the rest part of the house. But Alvin took that hall
out of there and the doer opens out doors now from the living room.
He made the living room bigger. That's their living room or their, ya
their living room. That's where the telephone office was for years,
I can't tell you how many years. And where did it go from there, then?
I can't think where it went from there or whether when Uncle Andrews
quit, I guess thenWhen it went up to Wades then and they had it in the
part that Coleman-Wades Tailor Shop. He made suits, men suits and
he was gone then by that time and so they used that front part for
(
a telephone office. And it was there until we went dial and they built
the, they've got a building out north of Stevensville, brick building now.
But the telephone office was at Wades until they went dial.
B.B.:
Is there anything else that you
R.C.:
Not that I can think of. Unless there was some questions you had to
•••
has you reflect back?
ask.
B.B.:
You've done fine.
R.C.:
They use to have what they call the Dummy which they ran across the
bridge to go tm Buffalo. I think that ran befor the ferry ran maybe
I don't know for sure.
B.B.:
Oh, tell me about the Dummy.
R.C.:
Well, it was all in one, like a street car, only it was run by battery I
suppose
it is
•..
what did they use to, what did they call it, I can't say what
generator, it may of been, I don't know. In ·early days they even
.•.
had I don't think that was ever run by steam though, I can't vision
that being run by steam so I think that was generator, that generated
(
their own power, the wheels ran, and the generator.
B.B.:
Where did you pick the Dummy up?
Where did it run from?
20
�R.C.:
Right there at Fort Erie where the station is, and it just went to Black
Rock and back again, it ran back and forth ever so often. Was it used
(
B.B.:
Was it used quite
?
R.C.:
Oh, yes.
B.B.:
How much did it cost?
R.C.:
Oh, I wouldn't have any idea anymore. I suppose maybe 1 0 cents to go
•••
across the river. But money was worth a lot more in those days than
it is now. A dime don't amount to much now anymore. Yes, I drove
back and forth on the Dummy quite a bit. I don't know why it got its
name Dummy unless because it wasn't steam engine, you know it wasn't
pulled by an engine, it generated its own power. Then they got the
ferry, I don't remember when the ferry started, I don't remember when
.
that service started, but then they carried cars across, the ferry. B ut
.
I think maybe the ferry was in operation even before cars began to come
around I don't know for sure. Uncle Emerson
.••
they drove the horse
and team, the horses and the surrey, you know the two seater with the
top and it had side curtains so if it rained you put those side curtainsdown,
they drove to Ohio. My Uncle Emerson, my mother's brother was married
to a lady from Ohio, Aunt Franny, and they'd drive there maybe once
a year for a reunion. And they went across with the ferry so it's back
0
quite a ways, I don't know. But I think the Dummy was first if I'm not
mistaken, I think the Dummy was first. BBut whether they maybe ran,
maybe the ferry ran a bigger boat before the even built the International
Bridge, I don't have any idea when that was built.
B.B.:
Well, Mrs. Carver thank you. You've given some very interesting information.
R.C.:
Well, there's lots of things I guess I missed but
B.B.:
Can you think of anything out there
R.C.:
No, I can't think of anything. I can just see Fort Erie when it was Bridgeburg
.••
..•
?
and it was so much smaller than it is now. It has really, really grown
now !
B.B.:
Thank you.
21
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History Transcripts
Subject
The topic of the resource
oral history, Fort Erie
Description
An account of the resource
Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fort Erie Public Library
Source
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FEPL- LH - Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Beverly Branton
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Ruth Carver
Location
The location of the interview.
Ridgewood Manor, Ridgeway
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Carver, Ruth
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is a transcript of Ruth Carver's interview. She discusses topics such as:
Technology
Stevensville
Recreation
Churches
Schools
Stores and businesses
Crescent Park
Railroad
The Depression
Blizzard of '77
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
April 21, 1985
1930s
1980s
1985
Blizzard of '77
churches
Oral history
railroad
recreation
ridgeway
schools
stevensville
stores and businesses
technology
transcripts