1 12 11 http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/67c97ecfeca899cd4be192ae4f42665c.pdf 9717382e5f9e41e92bcb277e0f02e4e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Louis McDermott Collection Subject The topic of the resource Local history, Fort Erie and surrounding area. Description An account of the resource A collection of historical documents, photos, news clippings, letters, and writings, assembled by local historian, Louis McDermott, and donated to the Fort Erie Public Library. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis McDermott Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL-LH -Louis McDermott Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Included in this collection are writings, historical documents, news clippings, images, maps, and more. They were written and compiled by Louis McDermott into a series of binders. The digital collection has been scanned from these physical copies. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Urban Preliminary Geographical List of Electors Description An account of the resource Listed here is a geographical list of electors for urban polling. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Louis McDermott Collection Fort Erie Town Council politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/42d56661b626cb132a82de339fb03372.pdf 512d13fb9a84243fe14f9ea99639d2ed PDF Text Text I This is Neil Flindall interviewing Mrs. Mary Graham in her home at 135 Battery Street, in Fort Erie, on the 20th of August 1985. N.F: When did you first come to Fort Erie? M.G: I first came to Fort Erie in August, of 1941...should I tell why? The teachers...the male teachers...were beginning to go into service, that is for World War Two...and there was an advertisement for a teacher...and my husband at this time had already gone into the service...and I didn't want to go to my mother with two small children so at that time I came to Fort Erie...it was...or should I say ...the biggest problem at that time was trying to find a place to live... Fort Erie itself was much, much smaller...and there were no houses like out in the Garrison Road area.. : there was no Crescent Park...and Mather School was about the limit for the town...a·nd we picked strawberries, where the... where that church is now, that would be the United Bretheren Church, and all along there...and back of Mather School was just meadow...there was no mall or no buildings along the Garrison ... but there was the odd building, but it certainly ( was not a centre of any kind for business at all...the war time houses were just beginning to be erected...and there were at that time people who would call Fort Erie1 Fort Erie...then Bridgeburg referred to the North End as Bridgeburg ...and the west end was Amagari... and at this time they still spoke of these three places. N.F: Even at that time? M.G: Oh, yes. N.F: Although that was some time after amalgamation. M.G: Oh, yes it was, but they still spoke of it in that manner...and there were only at that time just four public schools .•. Mather, Douglas, Wintemute, and Rose Seaton... and no seperate schools. N.F: There were no separate schools? M.G: No, there were no separate schools. N.F: I've never had anyone mention that. M.G: As .a matter of fact the first separate school occurred after and it was held in what had been the residence (1) •. ; the residence ..• �( for women workers at Fleet...a large wooden building on Central Avenue there...and the Nuns took it over...and I think it burned down...that is where St. Michael's is now...and they opened a separate school there...now before that...the Nuns came, I think about one or two days a week...at four o'clock in the afternoon, and taught the Catholic children...if the parents wished it...they were given instruction in our schools. N.F: Is that right, they came into the public schools? M.G: Yes, you see the Willicks, and the O'Hara's, and the Sullivans... all the people you know, that were Catholic and attended Douglas School... you see Mr. Sexsmith, he was the principal...and the school was run very differently from the schools now...every day ...I don't think even you remember this but...the children were lined up outside waiting to come in at recess, and at nine o'clock in the morning ... always in straight lines ...and there was a loud victrol a in the lower hall...always he played marshall music...and the chil­ dren marched in past teachers stationed at various points... Mr. ( Sexsmith was very, very interested in war...because he had been in the First World War...and I'll tell you the eleventh of November was always a production of war stories...war songs...war records... and they were very interesting...and not too many children had parents in the army, not in Fort Erie... you didn't see many uniforms but Fleet was the big thing ...people came from all over to work at Fleet ...both men and women...and there was a big influx of... well some of them were good, and some of them weren't so good... and they couldn't find places to live.. .I guess the hotels picked up in business a great deal...and then we didn't have to go out of the south end ... you didn't need a car at all, you see there were two drug stores... Livingston's and Camm's...there were grocery stores ..• there were a lot of little grocery stores, Carose's, and two or. three others whose names I can't remember, there was Thompson's up on top of the hill, where Beckers is now...and these grocery stores delivered, and of course you had credit till the end of the month ( (2) ••• �and the milk came to your door...and the bread came to your door... and you could walk to anywhere for the things that you would need.. . oh, and Young's Store, you could buy almost anything you needed right there...and there was no Agrette's...that was just a little fruit stand...and I think that at the time it was nearer the Fisherman's Diner is now...of course that is now a Chinese Diner...and I'm sure the hotels were there, the King Edward Hotel...Young's building is still there but the Salvation Army Store is there now...and there was something next to that, an old house that was quite famous... it was almost a landmark...and when they tore it down they found an old Indian graveyard ...the children came to school with knuckle bones, and bits of beads and such, it was very exciting ...then the I guess archeological society came in and fenced it off...so there were no more souvenier takers...there wasn't a great deal of move­ ment between the north end and the south end for quite a while ... because there was a long stretch of nothing...see there was no library there, there was one chain store at the north end, and that ( was the A&P I think, but a lot of people didn't have cars, and gas was rationed...so once a week Mr. Sexsmith used to take me down there, along with his wife to buy some groceries ...but most of the shopping was done at the smaller stores...then don't forget there was the Ferry...and the Ferry linked everyone with Buffalo...well I think it was ten cents for a round trip ...and you could go across there in the summer especially and have a wonderful fish dinner, right down at the docks, and then come back...there was a lot of buying in the States then. N.F: Was there much trouble with Customs at that time? M.G: No, although for a while during the war...you had to have your picture taken and carry a identification card...but there really wasn't any trouble...and the money was almost at par...the saddest thing though I think is the destruction of the clean water...and there was good public transportation ! would take my children and go by a bus ... and go out to where the old dance hall is, really to Hetherington's ( (3) �( Store, and there were beautiful sandy beaches...and beautiful clean swimming there...and you could have a picnic ... still the trees are there, but it is dirty and the water is unusable now...but at that time you could have a picnic there and get another bus home or walk. N.F: It's hard to think of having better bus service at that time than there is now. M.G: Well it was much better then...and of course busses went to Fleet... and busses went to Horton Steel...I think that really is the biggest difference, the river even was cleaner, well it looks nicer now... certainly the waterfront is much better...but there is far more garbage now than there ever was at that time...and the water was very clean... the children would go· out to the old dance hall and jump off that old dock, that pier that was way out ...it is partly destroyed now...and then they also had a pier there by Hetherington's Store ...and I cannot remember if there was a hotel there at that time or not ...because quite frankly we didn't go into those places ( so I don't know. N.F: I suppose that you as a teacher then would have a public image also. M.G: Well, I don't think it was that...I don't think that it was...drinking was done that much...and you had to have a good image, slightly, but they were never too strict...you weren't curbed too much... you would have to do something quite blatant before anything happened to you...but we just didn't go to the hotels...well I think that some of the people who came into town did...but I don't think the teachers did...I don't know for sure...and there was quite a contact with the States, far more than there is now, whether it was because it was so easy to go over there, by Ferry, I think that might be a big part of it...Fort Erie had...it was quite a problem to get a doctor during the Second World War...because Dr. O'Mulv a ney was here, he was pretty well the only one left ..• the one who used to be the railroad doctor Hammond went into the army, and I think Derbyshire could ( (4) �( have gone into the army also ••• ! don't think there were any other . doctors then .. ! remember Dr. O'Mulnmey being very annoyed at me for calling him once, when the children had measles...because he hadn't time to run around to see people who were not all that sick. N.F: Is that right? M.G: Oh, that was certainly right, I guess that was how busy they were... but finding a house was certainly a problem...and if it had not been for Mrs. Mabee ...who had a lot of old houses fixed up and rented... and also the principal Mr. Sexsmith ...I had an apartment in an old house, on the corner of Bertie Street and Stanton Street ...it is all fixed up now...it is done in a funny kind of wood now...and behind it I finally got a small house to rent for myself and the children... but some of the teachers came to Fort Erie and lived in cabins for some time...and there weren't many cabins ••• these would be the Orchard Park Motel now...you know, out the Garrison...but they were in the country, really ...that was the country at that time... ( and I lived there a week or two, so it really wasn't too bad...and the Queen Street United Church, that was open...there were a lot of kids went to Queen Street Sunday School...and Mr. Sexsmith was followed by Mr. Robertson ..• you should have had him... and then of course when Mr. Jackson came back from service in the Second World War... he took over that position...and those were the three principals that I had...and in all the time that I taught I only had the three principals. N.F: That covers quite a span of years. M.G: Yes,it certainly does. N.F: That must be a good record for a school to have such a small turn­ over, like that. M.G: Well yes, Mr. Sexsmith went to Rose Seaton School, and Mr. Robertson came in and then Mr. Robertson went to the new school...to he where Wintemute School was...and Mr. Jackson came back from the army...and then he filled the position of principal...but Miss ( (5) �( EvP.ringham taught there for years and years. N.F: Yes, she taught my father and she taught me also. M.G: Well yes, I can imagine ..• ! know that I taught many fathers and their children ••• quite a few as a matter of fact •.. but when it came to their grandchildren I thought that then it was time to quit but ••. it is hard to I forget some times how much smaller Fort Erie was ••• because the war time houses •.• there were just a few of them up there were none of these houses up on Murray •.• ••. of cm1rse General .•. Vanier School is new ••. and up by the hospital there were no homes ••• although there were a few homes up on the south side of Bertie Stre et, but none of the new ones, and Douglas Street was not built up yet, simply on one side ; it was all open space ..• the kids had a wonderful time they were out playing all the time...and there were many lit:tle creeks that went through the town •.. and they played outdoors then much more that they do now ... but there was no arena .•• it had collapsed ...and there was a period of time before a new one was erected ...some years they were lucky enough to have three ( weeks of skating in the school yard...but not very often ..• I'm trying to remember where the old Post Office was...and you know I simply can't...it seems like...the old librar;r was there on Bertie Street, on Bertie Street below the hill...I think the _old post office was somewhere over by the Legion Hall, there on Queen Street ..·.but I forget know the post office on Princess Street but that is new remember that being built .•. ! ... I should •.• and I forget where the old one was •••Miss Everingham may remember but I simply cannot oh yes Sullivan's ••• Fish and Chips ••• yon ate out ••• that was the place that you went to eat ••• when and oh that was good food. N.F: He must have been busy. M.G: Well now, every Friday night ••• dinner ••• and it was good .•• everybody went to Sullivan's for ! wish he would open up again. N.F: A lot of people say that. M.G: And the only Chinese restaurant I think was May Wong's, that used to be the hotel down on the Niagara Boulevard ••• ( ' (6) the Niagara Hotel ••• �{ and it is gone now...and her children attended Douglas School. •• and the other Chinese restaurant was well it was Happy Jack's ••• uncle or whatever ••• it was a little restaurant ••• the New York Cafe I think it was called...it is the only other one I remember•••and it was near Carom's Drug Store...and then Livingston's Drug Store was on the corner on the east side of the Niagara Boulevard...but I think maybe those are the biggest changes...the town now is so much bigger...but with so much less transportation available ...and so many of the stores are gone .•. they are just gone ...you cannot buy meat within walking distance of my home here now...there is Beckers but there is no meat that you would bring home to cook it is all cold cuts or frozen or like that...and Agrette's was within walking distance but now of course it is closed ...well all of those little corner stores were very handy, and everybody knew every­ body...now Fort Erie wasn't the friendliest place ••. you know what amused me very much...and it has amused everybody that I have spoken to also...they the people of Fort Erie consider anybody who ( came to Fort Erie, within forty or fifty years as a new comer... there were certain ones who were established...the Glenny's, the Rose's as the ... .•. ! can't think of some other names...they still refer to them the Nigh's I guess...the people who had lived here...but they speak of somebody as a new comer and then you found. out that _ _ they had been here fifty years...but that has now changed, finally ' that has changed, although L couldn't tell you exactly when it hap­ pened. N.F: That certainly is different. M.G: That was always very amusing to me•••and I couldn't get over the American accents when I first arrived here ••• ! spent ages trying to get the children to pronounce properly...what and why and bread and doctor ••• those words all sounded so funny. N.F: I wanted to ask you about rationing. M.G: Oh yes, I'd almost forgot a.bout all that ••• we were rationed, we had tickets, and that was for sugar, and butter and meat ••• ( the things that we had the tickets for ••• children ••• those were now I lived alone with two so I always had more sugar than I needed ... we are not (7) �( sweet eaters so I was able to trade sugar coupons for butter coupons ••• I used more butter...and actually the meat coupons were better than immediately after the war ...when suddenly the Americans came over here and bought the meat, and I mean a lot of meat... and Mr. Thompson would save some meat for his regular customers... or I don't think we would have had hardly any meat at all...rationing lasted I believe a short time, I had honestly forgotten about that... I can remember the storms we had ...we used to get some really severe storms ...where you had to wade through water almost waist deep to the nearest corner store to get anything that you might need ...the milk wouldn't come to the house, but the delivery person would drop it of at the nearest store... and another thing I remember... rationing made me remember it... the children bought milk at school... well they were given milk at school and they paid for it in pennies... and it was a horrible job...once a week all these pennies when the \ milk order went in...and the other thing the children bought then was War Savings Stamps. ( N.F: They were War Savings Stamps? M.G: Yes they were stamps, and then so many stamps were equal to a certificate I think...well I forget exactly how it was done... but each room, that is each class vied with the others to see who could sell the most stamps...now a lot of the children ...! really think the Second World War affected them less here, than anywhere else ...it was close to the United States...and they didn't talk war until the United States joined in the war. N.F: Is that right? M.G: Well yes, that was the war to them...mainly because nearly every­ body's parents were war workers at Fleet, or Horton Steel or some­ where, or they were American Citizens...and they didn't come into the same situation...and don't forget there was little television then...well there was no television then at all ...so there was no way that that could be played up to them...and most things are from the States ...! don't think there was a great deal of sympathy ( (8) �( at first. N.F: That is hard to imagine. M.G: Because you know ••• at one time in Buffalo there was the German Bund Organization, and of course that was a very pro-Nazi organ­ ization. N.F: They did at one time have a very big movement over there. M.G: And there was a great deal of fuss over there about that and it .•• wasn't until after the Second World War...or the closing of it •.. refugees began to come over...it didn't seem to affect them now the rationing did hard to come by .•• when but ••• but I don't remember, oh, nylons were very they were just practically non-existent •.. and I ••• don't think clothes were rationed but they were in short supply ..• and children's toys and bicycles were simply not to be found...you had to scrunge for a second hand bicycle or tricycle and of course _ second hand toys...because new ones weren't on the market. N.F: All materials were going into war supplies. M.G: Yes...now I really don't think that rationing and all that ( one suffered here during the war at all .•• that any­ •.. in fact I believe that they had more money than they did before. N.F: That could very well be. M.G: There were new industries and new jobs ••• and so much new housing .•• I don't think that it was too severe at any time. N.F: What would you have done for entertainment when you first came to town? M.G: Well there were two movie houses in town then. N.F: There were two operating at that time? M.G: Yes there were, one at the north end, and one at the south end here the one in the north end was on Dufferin Street ••• the south end was on the Niagara Boulevard and the one in and I think that they ••• were both owned by the Ziff's, the Ziff family ••• and in the south end they were good movies...and they were quite cheap. N.F: I didn't know that the south end was opened at that time. M.G: Yes it was. N.F: Do you remember a name for it at all? ( (9) �( M.G: No, I can't remember a name at all. N.F: I can't either. M.G: I do know that they had all the good pictures...and of course there was swimming in the summer, as I said, and I believe the beaches and the water where people swam was much cleaner that it is today, well, most people went to Buffalo... you went to Buffalo to concerts, you went to Buffalo to eat... you simply went to Buffalo...there were busses running to Buffalo summer and winter ...it was a local bus line...Van Dyke I believe... oh the bus service was far better then, than it is now...and of course you played cards at people's houses... I don't think that there was half as much entertainment in the town...as there is now...people didn't go out like that. N.F: There weren't as many restaurants around then at least in Fort Erie. M.G: No, just the New York Cafe, and Sullivan's Fish and Chips...but then I don't think that people went out as much here...they went to Buffalo...over there you could go to nightclubs, and there were ( restaurants...and Buffalo was much nicer then than it is now ... downtown Buffalo had some beautiful restaurants Pheiffers and Lobby's Old Spain...and you went there to those restaurants in Buffalo. N.F: That would make sense, yes. M.G: Well, it wasn't dull. N.F: When you came to Fort Erie were the streets paved? M.G: Yes and the strange part was way out past Mather School. ..they had expected Garrison to be the growth area...and the street leading out the Garrison was paved and yet there was nothing there but a hay field...and that was all...because when I walked in from what they called the old Orchard Cabins...you could walk all the way on the pavement...they put the pavement in, in hopes of a big expansion. N.F: Fort Erie does go off on some tangents it would seem. M.G: Well that is the way it was then, and finally it is growing now. N.F: When did you first move to this location on Battery Street? ( (10) �( M.G: Oh, well we built this house in nilneteen sixty-two was part of •.• and this house and I think that this was an interesting property •.• ••• at one time there was a big house there, on the south and east corner and the house is still there faced on Battery Street ••• and there was a carriage house, which and where we are used to be the orchard .•• •.• and that property covered the whole area, so I presume that it was a fairly wealthy family who lived in the house ..• but it was various people who lived here, the Honey family lived here for a while .•• but when we built this us ••• you see .•• Dr. Hayes, the Dentist lived there, beside Dr. Hayes had decided to build a house here, to leave the big one and build one on our property here...and then he went out to British Columbia and he liked it there so much he came ..• back and sold everything, went back to British Columbia, and we bought this lot and built here ... befroe that we lived on Murray Street, we had bought a house on Murray Street... and I've never lived anywhere but here in the south end ...for a while we thought of moving farther out, but then we would have needed to use a car so much...and the ( library was very close, you could walk to anywhere in this area, there were all kinds of stores... but it has changed quite a bit now. N.F: It certainly has. M.G: The population has grown except...it is very stretched out... I mean it is a far bigger area to grow to that number of people...the children, those people with younger children who would have attended Douglas School, they moved out of the area...and now at this point there seem to be younger families, with more children moving back into the area again but then again now they bus the children ••. they ••• have torn down Mather School which I feel was ridiculous, it was a modern school ently •.• ••• and Douglas School they have torn down just rec­ and all they needed to do at Douglas School, was add a lib­ rary, a wing would have done it. N.F: And they had all that land at both schools. M.G: I feel that they have been short-sighted ••• no one seems to know what they are going to do with the properties. ( (11) �( N.F: You would have had a very close contact with the parents at the time. M.G: Oh, yes we had a very active Home and School Association...and we always knew the parents, and I always knew before the year was up, where every child lived but we did have a very close contact ••• at that time with the parents. N.F: I would imagine that would have helped quite a bit. M.G: It did and the Home and School Organization was excellent ...because it linked social life with the school, and then the parents with the children ...that would keep the children much more involved ...oh and I think the parents were more interested, no, I don't, the parents are still interested, but there are more that are not interested now, . let me put it that way ..I think that the teachers at one time could be very outspoken with the parents... and they are not supposed to be now...well a child at one time you could say he was really lazy...but now he would be insufficiently motivated...you are supposed to talk around it. ( N.F: How did Fort Erie strike you when you first came? M.G: Well I was born in Sudbury, but raised in Eastern Ontario ... Fort Erie was hot in summer, and colder than I had ever been in the winter... because of the dampness, but terribly hot...and this is interesting, there was one child· in my room, in one year whose parents were divor.ced ...now almost all the children ·fit into that situation ...and in the north there weren't any divorces ...that was something that was quite new and down here there were so many different names, ••• German names and such and of course I was used to English or Scotch names and had a very difficult time with the pronunciations was quite different ••• that ••• ! liked it, Fort Erie, I did find it a little insular, although we are not an island, and oh I'm still amused because people talk about going up north, and they go to Huntsville or somewhere, and we always thought north meant north of North Bay ... and people here didn't travel much, now they do, but then they didn't ...and there weren't many people until the Fleet that came from different ( places, other than that it was all people born and raised here, but that changed during the war years. (J2.) �N.F: ( When you first came to Fort Erie from outside of the area did you find that you had any problems knowing your local politicians? M.G: I haven't a clue .•• ! don't even know who the politicians were even remember who the mayor was oh and that is my fault •.• taught our later politicians in school ••. •• ! don't ! ••• .! was a little interested in the National Democratic Party at one time this is when they were­ ••• fighting for our using the beaches, and for cleaner water that Jack Daley's brother was very involved ! remember ••• when I first came •.. here I was too busy with two small children to be involved with politics and I always had a difficulty getting baby sitters, they ••• weren't called baby sitters then...but I had some good ones B. Nigh ·was one, a young one as a matter of fact...and then Mrs. Minor, the Minors were an old f amily in Fort. Erie...I think she really wanted to keep an eye on her own grandchildren, and they lived next door... and so she was just like a grandmother to my children. N.F: That would work out very well. M.G: But that was rather a problem at that time...when I came here, mind you, the school was full, there were thirty-five to forty ( children in each class. N.F: And that was from kindergarden on up? M.G: That is right we had all grades...all the way from kindergarden right on up.to grade eight...and let me tell you they behaved.. .! can rernll!mber two or three students being expelled...one for bad language...! think . maybe they were too strict at that time. .but now I think it is t he . other wav N.F: You would have had a very close contact with the parents at the time. M.G: Oh, yes we had a very active Home and School Association and ••• we always knew the parents, and I always knew before the year was up, where every child lived but we did have a very close contact ••• at that time with the parents. N.F: I would imagine that would have helped quite a bit. M.G: It did and the Home and School Organization was excellent because ••• it linked social life with the school, and then the parents with the children ( that would keep the children much more involved ••• oh ••• and I think the parents were more interested, no, I don't, the parents are still interested, but there are more that are not interested now, (13J �N.F: M.G: \ It became more diverse. But as far as the physical part the town was simply a small town, and they are much the same everywhere.. ! found it very convenient, . I at the time you didn't have much time to think about it, you are busy with the day to day things ...and I had one child only a year old. N.F: And still teaching. M.G: Well, I had just started back...you see I hadn't taught for eight years...and women didn't teach then, you quit when you got married, you weren't allowed to teach, you could finish the month and then that was it. N.F: Is that right? M.G: No married woman, unless she were a widow, then she might be hired... well don't forget, just like now there was a terrible problem with employment and we were into a Depression .•. but when the war started, they suddenly needed teachers, and then for a while we were frozen in the job ...yes at one time it was considered an essential, because so many were leaving for the services then ... and your job was frozen. N.F: It came full circle then, all the way around. M.G: ( And now it is back to scarcity of positions ...of course you see the salaries they make now ... when I came here it was a thousand dollars a year. N.F: It has gone up quite a bit since then. M.G: Well it has gone up, but back then everything was cheaper ! think .•• the most rent I ever paid was twenty-five dollars a month•••and ·gas when· we built this house everything was ten dollars a month, the hot water tank, stove, and all ••• I think for the very same thing and now it is fifty-eight dollars and the water rates are dreadful ••• now compared to what they were. M.G: When I first came here everything was included in the rent except the electricity...then on Murray Street I think we paid water, but for goodness sake it was practically nothing...by the year it wasn't as much as one payment now. N.F: Not as much for a year as it would be for one payment now. M.G: Yes that is how it would compare...and I feel that is about all I ( can tell you. N.F: Thank you very much for the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Graham, Mary Description An account of the resource Provided here is Mary Graham's interview. She discusses such topics as: World War II North End Bridgeburg Schools Fleet Factories and industry Hotels and taverns Horton Steel Churches Restaurants South End Politics Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 10, 1985 1980s 1985 Bridgeburg churches factories and industry Fleet Fort Erie Horton Steel hotels and taverns north end Oral history politics restaurants and bars schools south end transcripts world war II http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/c7c5c8de42975f41d23c5a4122130a87.pdf c78d5d21a0b62b75a495877dbd83bcd3 PDF Text Text This is N e il F l indall in the h o m e of M r . Percy Detenbeck , 545 Central A venue Fort Erie, Ontario , t h is the 12th day of August 1985. N.F: Where w ere you born M r. Detenbeck ? P.D: I w as born in the Townsh ip of Bertie, three m iles w est of the Bertie Boundary. N.F: How big was Bertie Township at the t i m e ? P.D: Well it took in R idgeway, S tevensville, C rystal Beach and then out to the subway on the outsk irts o f F ort E r ie . N.F: Where exactly was it that you l ived ? P.D: I lived on Sunset D r iv e , that's name then . . . it was just a the name of it now , but it had no side road . .I went to school at Number . Six, up on Ridgemount Road...and then after school I worked par t time o n the farm...and then I got myself a job a t the a g e o f seven­ teen on the Michigan Central Railroad at that time...and in 1930 I star ted 1928 . .and in 1930 the New York Central leased it for . ninety-nine years. N.F: For ninety-nine years? P.D: Yes they were supposed to...and I wo rked for the New York Central up until the Penn Centr al took it over...then after that...why it was only a few years I took my pension ... that was in 1974 . and . . I've been on pension since 1974 ...I get an American pension because I worked for the New York Central...so I've been retired ever since . .. do in g nothing b u t g ar den ing and s uch . N.F: Th e M ich igan Central had P.D: Yes , that's when I first started . . . it ran between Detroit and Buffalo a roundhouse in For t Erie? the M ich igan C entral . . . then the New York Central took it over and it was between Chicago and New York . . . which we thought we were going t o work for a big railroad and everything was going to be real prosperous . . . and in 1930 they cut the staff just about fifty percent. N.F: That was in 1930. P.D: And then the Depression came and I was laid off . . . worked s o m e t i m e i n t h e w inter a n d t h e n i n the s u m m e r I'd be o u t of a j o b . . . and n o une mploym ent i n those days e ither , in those days the last (1) �( cheque was it . . . you had t o go out and find a j o b s o m e place w ith a p ick and shovel. .. and then I started back in 1936 . . . and I cont inued r ight on through . . . steady. N.F: Did you travel w ith the railroad or were you always in F ort Erie ? P.D: It was the Fort Erie yard was w h ere I worked . . . and then in 1960 they give us n ine days notice that they were going to close the yard up. N.F: Se r iously, that is what they did ? P.D: Nine had days . . . that w as all they g av e us j o int seniority with M o ntr os e I went to an d all these m e n.. . well w e . and Welland . . so I left here and Welland after that and I w o rk e d in Welland until I took m y pension. N.F: That wouldn't be very easy either travelling back and forth. P.D: No, it wasn't and I'm on pension now on my twelfthyear ..I travelled . back and forth... well I must have travelled back an forth at least ten years or so before I took my pension. ( N.F: That is difficult. P.D: In the winter time especially. N.F: There is no direct route into Welland. P.D: Well now it is wo rse than it used to be when I first went up. ..at the time they put the new canal through and I saw that right from the time it started until it was finished and the boats came then they moved our yard from t h e C ity of .Welland out five t h ro ugh miles w est of Welland, o u t on the h igh w ay along the Welland R iver . . . and that's where it is today ... and the T.H.&B it is a j o int the and the Central, and s ince that t ime they've the C . N. T.H.&B R . they went C onrail first and now t h e C onrail has sold out to the C . P. and the east end you work for the T . H .& B--C . P.--C . P . and if you are on the west end the C. N. k ind of took the west end over ... so the west end now they have the tunnel. . . we had the tunnel so the C .N . uses the tunnel at the west end and the C . P. uses a bridge to N iagara F alls on this end. N.F: You've seen a lot of changes then , from the t i m e you started. ( (2) , �( , P .D: Well I've seen lot s of changes espec ially in the boxcars . .. the cars, the boxcars they were only forty-e igh t foot, for ty-tw o foot , now you have got cars that an-over a hundred foot in length. N.F: That is huge, really huge. P.D: So there have been a lot of changes in m y day espec ially in e qu ip m e n t w e had the o l d s t e a m engines . .. n o w t h e y a r e a l l dieselized . N.F: When d id that beg in ? P .D: Well I can' t say right off. N.F: Was it a really a fast change over or did it take a number of years ? P .D: Oh, it ch ang ed over quite fast . ..the first trains that came , o ver here in our yards here in Fort Erie was the Penn syl van ia and that was the first diesel I saw... they used to come over and bring their trains over and drop them off and take a train back .. .well then a little while after that the New York Central came out with a few diesels ... and as the diesels came out, why they would get rid of a steam engine ...so we've had six or seven steam engines up here standing stored for a long time... before they took them away to ( scrap them. N.F: They scrapped them. P.D: During that time a lot of those brass bells that a man couldn't lift, they were stolen off them... so when they left here the bells were pretty well gone .. . I think they even took the bell off the one over in the museum . ..that there was supposed to be stolen ...they would be worth a lot of money of a fellow had them today. N.F: There must have been to keep at the P .D: a lot of me morabil ia that people didn't th ink ti m e . Yes and the old roundhouse up here . .. they tore it down, and all the car shops . . . and another th ing that happened just before they closed the yard . . . they bu ilt us a new yard office, and repaired the car shops and fixed all the repair tracks up and everything . .. and then a year or so after that they closed her u p and all those new buil d ings, they tore th e m down. N.F: ( They s i m ply tore t h e m down. P.D: They just tore t h e m down . . . well they were wrecked in the first (3) �( year that they were vacant. N.F: Did they have cattle pens up on the tracks? P.D: Yes w e had stock pens up . . . they were on the top of Jarvis Street yes they sat r ight at the top of Jarvis Street, if a train got delayed or something ... and the cattle had to be fed ... we had to have a stock thing to run the cattle through , down to feed them . . . and the section man w ould chase them back up again, roll them up� N.F: When you were in school what was there in the area for recreat ion ? P.D: We had no r ecreation at that t i m e . . . only what w e made ourselves; w e ' d make a football field at the sch ool yard of our own, and then put u p s t icks and then that's all w e would ever have, or m ake a l ittle baseball d iamond . ..but w e had no recreat ion at that and the school time . . I went to out there on Ridgemount Road was a . stone school. .. and I can still remember the wooden emblem on the front 1865 when it was built...out of stone, and all we had fo r heat was a g reat big box stove...and a woodshed in back of the school, and we'd, each one would have to take turns car rying this three foot ( s quar e block of wood in, to keep wood on the stove... to try to keep her warm ... and the school was so drafty, there were lots of times that we had to come home, you just couldn't keep her hot. N.F: I'll bet, winters were mor e severe then weren't they? P.D: Oh, yes, and then an outhouse way on the outside .. you had to . about f ive h undred yards to get to it in walk i n the winter time... a ladies one corner of the school yard and the man's on the oth e r corner, and then walk ing back and forth to school a whole m ile ... we didn't have any busses . . . we'd walk in snow right up to our bell ies . .. hoof h e r back and forth to school everyday . N.F: It couldn't have been very easy . P.D: No, not l ike they have got it today . . . you had so many chores to do in the morning before you went to school . . . and then when you came h o m e from school you had chores to do at nighc;and no television to s it u p and watch either . . . in later years w e wound up .. ; well I used to start build ing crystal set radios . . . and then that was ( (4) �something then it went from crystal set, why we'd build a one ••. tube, that was really something. N.F: I bet it was yes. P.Il And sit up half the night and see how many stations you could log. N.F: That would be very interesting. P.D: It was sure different then and now. N.F: Was it a one room school house! P.D: One room ••. all the whole classes right from premier class right on up to your senior second and then you went and passed your entrance to Fort Erie here to high school...you came down here when you passed your entrance. N.F: How did you ever manage to get to high school in Fort Erie? P.D: Well t hat was t he only place t hat you could go you see, t hat was t he arrangement . N.F: Just no choice about it . P.D: No, when you got t hrough t here, you went down to try your ... t hey called it an entrance, and t here was no grades in t hem days ... t here ( was ... you went to premier school, junior first, junior second, senior second, junior fourt h, senior fourt h and t hen t hat was your end ... that was as far as you went int o t hat , t hen you go t o high school aft er t hat in Fort Erie which.. . I went out and got a job for. N.F: Most people did. P.D: I didn't bother going no further...after t hat you had to self-educat e yourself . N.F: Which is not such a bad idea. P.D: Yes, you got self-educated...and that you don't ever forget...self­ education. N.F: Because if you don't do it right the first time, you automatically do it right after, do it until it is right, when did you first move into Fort Erie? P.D: Oh, well I moved in as soon as about eighteen when I came down ••• and I boarded different places and I'd go back and forth had a car, to ride back and forth I always .•. I'd stay down a week or so ••• was in and out of town all the time I ••• my father he worked for the .•• ( (5) �( C. N. all his life ••. and he used to run the farm and always worked nights on the railroad, and worked the farm in the daytime .•. but h e always commuted back and forth in a horse and buggy first, and a horse and cutter...and then after he got the cars, why he used cars.. .I could always go back and forth when I was working, but then I came and let's see I was about thirty some years old before I got married...but I didn't figure on getting married, and my wife came from out west they brought her here to the Fleet Aircraft during the war, and that's how I got married...she never went back west...and we've done pretty good since, real good...since I took my pension now we, we get along pretty well, making more money now t han I ever did while I was working. N.F: I can well imagine, yes. P.D: And I st ill pay a lot of income t ax ...when I first worked on t he rail­ road whatever I made I got the whole full cheque, no deduct ions ... no income t ax or anything t aken out ...t hat didn't st art unt il about 1935, when t hey st art ed t aking income t ax out ...t hen I didn't know ( much about income t ax and t he boss come to me and t old me get t hose income t ax papers filled out or we'll, you'll be garinsheed, and you'll lo se your job. N.F: Well t hat 's one way to convince you. P.D: So I got a hold of a local lawyer Teddy Tyrill, used to be here in t hem days, got him to fill it out, but he made a mistake so I got money back instead of more than I had to pay in, he made an error so ••. nobody knew too much about it in those days... and then they started taking out hospitilization and all that stuff like that, and they never...oh, it was quite a while later that it was before they started taking income tax out of your cheque...we had to pay the whole thing at the end of the year...and that's what make it tough for us too. N.F: Would it ever, yes. P.D: Yes when I started, it was for that time was getting about 56¢ 30¢ an hour, and Horton Steel at or 35¢ . . . so ( (6) I figured that I had �a real good pay ing jo b . N.F: It is hard now to th ink about wages like that . R.R: Yes now the wages that you get today one hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and th irty-five dollars a day, just an ord inary sw itch­ man. N.F: That's w ithout be ing on the roa d . R.R: It's a good pens ion plan , I get a very good pension . . . ou r pension started in 1937 P res ident R oosevelt put ours th rough , it's an A m e r ican pers ion, and w e got, well our pens ion was real good then acco r d ing to the C . N . and the C . N . is real good now too, then the only th ing about the C . N. l ike our A me r ican pens ion your w ife gets half of what you get . . . b e t w e e n the t w o of us you see, we get A m e rican pens ion now is d iscou n t e d and w e have to pay inco m e tax on that too, and that is thirty-six, th irty-seven percent or it ' s been close to fo rty ce nts on the dollar. .. but w e pay inco me tax on that , of cou r s e you can gain a little bit th ough . ( N.F: They'll take that l ittle b it away as fast as they can too . R.R: O h , yes j u s t as fas t . N.F: W hen you first s t a r t e d work ing a t t h e railroad d id they have a lot of people work ing there ? R.R: Oh it was b ig and it w a s a very busy yar d , me n , there w e re all k inds . of m e n u n t il t h e b ig layoff in 1930 . . . that's when the N e w Y or k C entral took it ove r , and the D epression hit at t h e sa me t ime . . . so I worked even in the . . . W indsor s o m e times when men were going on vacation, in the s u m m e r . . . and I was lucky enough to get a job at the E r ie Downs Golf C ou rse . . . ! drove the t ractor up there, d id that for a w h ile . N.F: C o m ing f r o m a far m that would be second natu re. R.R: A n d then, m aybe in the w inter t i m e and th ings got tough then I m ight be called back on the railroad for the w inter . . . and just in the s p r ing when the t rucks started t o run again I'd get laid off, that's the way I had to start . . . for the first five or s ix years . . . t ill 1936 and then it got steady and I worked right on through . ( (7) �( N.F: That is a long t i m e . P.D: F orty-seven y e a r s , s a m e job. N.F: What were you doing ? P.D: I was a car inspector . N.F: That's the first job you started w ith so I guess you do know qu ite a few of the changes in the cars, and equipment. P.D: Well I was off s ick in there for , and I was laid off, and I took a tu rn as a sw itch m an and then I got laid off again and car ins pector was a more secure job, m uch more secure in our depa r t m ent so . . . well I had a chance to i t was going weeks go fir ing o r an yth ing but I wanted to be where to be steady , and then you'd be because the m jobs laid off a while s o y ou o n ly in 1936, work a few you had to have a lot o f seniority to have a job then, s o I got one there and then I was all set. N.F: That worked out well. P.D: So it worked out quite well for me I never ever killed myself. .. and t he railr oad was a pleasu re in those days, it really was, and ( you couldn't wait to go to work ... not today. N.F: You don't hear many people say that. P.D: You used to have more fun at work than you d id when you were home. you use to have a baseball team or any teams? N.F: Did P.D: No, they had a h oc k e y team for a wh ile but not a ball t e a m . . . we had a hockey team after they built the arena up here . . . and one of the fello w s , I'll tell you how lax w e used to be on the railroa d , th is guy is dead now so I can ment ion th is ... ! was a U n ion R epresentat ive , for twenty-five years and I travelled all over the U n ited States . . . California, Texas and in Canada too, B . R . C . of A . Brotherhood of R a ilway C ar m en of A me r ica, I represented that for t w enty-five years, so that was another th ing I'd be on these conventions at Kansas C ity or anyplac e , Montreal, and we were getting seventy-five dollars or e ighty dollars a day when they were getting about fifteen dollars a day for working home here, the w ife and I , she always t ravelled ( (8 ) �( w ith me . . . we had the best of hotels and everyth ing ... oh, that was really good . . .I made pretty near as much money in the union as I d id working, and s o m e days well more, because I had to go to Detriot to the Joint P rotec t ive Boards they called it, about every month , and that would take three days to go up there and back.:. and w e g o t paid f o r travell ing time, same a s we do at t h e convent ion, and w e'd go from here to Kansas C it y , I'd put three days to go to Kansas C ity and three days to come back, six days there, just travell ing and you'd get on the train here and it was always on the tra in, you'd you'd b e in Kansas get on at free t r an sport a t io n ten at night and the next afte rnoon C ity, but I'd put in three d a y s ... five days to California, each way, Longbeach was our last convention going in C a l if o r n i a you figure five days going and five days com ing back, .. that was interesting too ...okay I was referring to this guy; he was working four-to-twelve and he com e to me and told me the boss won't let m e off, what are you going to do about it, so I explained that I couldn't ( do nothing because we didn't have no m en, and he ar gue d and argued, and he went to wor k t hat afternoon, for o'clock for the four - to - twelve, but in the m eanti m e when the things were all cleared up, without per m ission or telling anybody he goes up and plays hockey, he was a hockey player because he come from Elk Lake, up nor th, an d t hey he were really hockey fans, so he we n t u p broke his ankle ... well he came pla y in g h ockey and back to work and h e called me u p on the phone and h e said "I want you to c o m e up t o work'\ so I went u p and he's got a broken ankle, he's got a rag wrapped around it and h e wants to know how he can say how he has done it on the j o b . . .I said that it's i m poss ible, because all the people u p there at the arena saw you do it, how can you explain that .. :so he got fired.::an d . i t took m e about s ix m onths before I g o t him back . . I got him back�;J got him back w ith h is full senio r ity but no back pay or anyth ing: N.F: That's amazing. P.D: How it happened . . .I went w ith the General C hair man t o Detroit, o r rather the G eneral M anager was in Detroit, so the General ( (9) �-� ( .... ,.. ,,. .. -.� Chairman was going to take h is pens ion at the end of the month and so was the G e neral Manager ... so our General Chairman says "what do you say , your tak ing your pens ion at the end of the month and I'm taking m ine, what do you say w e put th is m an back to work and we can leave a clean slate", so the G ene ral M anager okayed it and that's how we got him bac k . N.F: Isn't t h a t great. P.D: Well I came back that n ight and he lived over here on Jar v is S t reet in an apa r t m ent upstairs, so I went over and told him be ready to be back at work anyt i m e your r ea dy . N.F: Oh , I bet he w as happy . P.D: Yes, N.F: Jobs have never been that easy to find in this town. P.D: No not at all, but at one time the railroad was the only thing in a young fellow with a wife and family. this town... the re was nothing much else ... that paid good money... like t he Horton Steel was thi r t y-five cents an hour for years ...and ( the Fleet started up but they didn't have too many men years ago. N.F: It didn't start off lar ge did it? P.D: No, no not unt il the war time, that's when t he Fleet really started up, but before that Jack Sanderson and a gir l by the name of Emma Sto rm was his secr etary, and that was all plus a few men ... so that's all that consisted of...so the railroad was the only thing, and it used to be always busy because if you didn't like work ing on the New York C entral, why you would j ust quit and go over the next morning and work for C. N . or the C . N . would qu it and they would come over here and work for the M ich igan C entral, and that's just about how easy it w as in them days ... yes I started off w it h the first old car I got was an old Modet T and I d rove it back and forth t o work. N.F: What were the roads like ? P.D: Well they w e r e mostly o r d inarily s tone roads , and then they would put oil down on the m .. . in the w inter t i m e it was bad , well j ust hook up the h o rse and cutter slide the shafts over on one s ide so the ( (10) �pathway would be where the cutter marks run and you could see the horse could run u p that . . . they would slide the shaft sideways, <t-·- --1 and the cutter would stay in the two marks and you were com ing back the same way. N.F: That m akes a lot of se nse. P.D: Yes well that is the way that they used to do it in them days .. . and if you wanted a doctor l ike there was babies to be born o r anything l ike that you called S tevensville , there was a doctor in S tevensville and one in R idgeway, Doctor Buell in S tevensville , S tackhouse in R idgeway and Doctor Douglas down here in the south end, and Doc M enck , and they were the fou r old doctors, and say you w ife was going t o have her baby or s o m e t h ing you would call them up the day before ... s o he w ould hook u p h is horse and c u tter, and y ou w o u l d horse back o u t to m e e t h i m if the weather was b a d a n d the roads w e r e bad, b r ing h i m in and put h is horse away and everyth ing and h e ' d s t ay ove r n igh t . N.F: ( Really , that is w h at they would do. P.D: The baby was bor n r ight in the h o m e , no hospitals , and then they had t o s t ay in b e d it w as nine days , before they could even g e t out of bed in those days. N.F: N ine days . P.D: N ine days and r ig h t in bed .. .I was jus t up t o the h o s p ital here a c ouple of weeks ago w ith a cold here . . . and there was a young girl had a baby there . .. and the next day she was up and walk ing aroun d , it w a s the s a m e w ay w ith an operation, my father h a d h is appendix out in Buffalo and h e was a month before he was ever allowed to get u p out of bed, just last year I had my gallbladder out and I was seventy-four years old at the time I had my gallbladder out . . . and they had me u p . . I had it out at e ight in the morning and they had . me u p and walking around at four o'clock in the afternoon . . . and three days aft e r that they sent m e home w ith a bunch of tubes tape d on my stomac h , a n d he told m e to c o m e back i n t e n days and I'll look you over . . . so in ten days I went back and he pulled out (11) �( the tubes and t h e s t itches . . . never touched it after, it was a perfe ct job and I can eat anyth ing I want . . . that's someth ing . . . and that w as a serious operatio n years :ago. N.F: Well it must have been a life threatening operat ion. P.D: Yes oh yes, even pne u m on ia o r b r onch itis were real bad . . . and then if an old person , they broke any bones pneu monia w ould set in and that is what they would d ie of is pneu monia, not from a break. N.F: Times really have changed that wa y . P.D: Y es, so that is about i t . N.F: How b ig w as the h o s p ital when it w a s first opene d ? P.D: Well it was j u s t about maybe half the s ize that it is now, that front part w a s all o r iginal, t h e new part in the back and t h e e mergency areas , they are t h e only parts that were put on . . . t h e front part is all t h e old part of the h o s p ital. N.F: C o m ing from a far m d i d y ou ever g o to t h e B e r t ie F air ? P.D: All t h e t i m e , oh that w a s s o m e t h ing w e w ould never m is s . . . that was a good day, a day when the sch ools w ould close and e v e r y t h ing ( and w e used to have foot races up on the racetrack . . . they h a d this up at t h e racetrack y ou k no w , they had foot races a n d all k inds of shows and y ou1 .w ould take some of your farm produce d o w n there for p r ize s . N.F: I t w as an agr icultural a n d s o c ial event as w ell ? P .D: Oh sur e , it used t o last a bout t h r e e days , then the fire men they ' d have dances at nigh t , they'd run t h e dances t h e fire depart ment would, and w e ' d dance under the g r andstand, that is when Maddigan had it. N.F: It was a p r ivate enterp r ise at that t i m e ? P.D: Yes it was in those days . . . used to be a bush there where all the barns are . . . and h e had g a m e hens all chicken coops through the bush . . . and h e put a shotgun in h is buggy and he'd d r ive back t hrough t o check h is chicken coops everyday . . . w ith a shotgun. N.F: Y es, no fooling a r ound . P.D: He'd see if anybody would steal ch ickens, and h e l ived way ove r (12) �( on the c orner of what was it , C oncession and B e r t ie . . . way back in the corner where thay pile the m anure and the g r ound stuff that is w h e re h is h ouse was, h e had a cock pit in there where he used t o collect and cockle the birds . . . my father worked on the thrashing machine in them days and he used to thrash h is grain, he w ent as far as Texas figh t ing cocks . . . he was outlawed around here so h e w ould go down there because it was lawful down there and h e had certain chauffers d r ive h i m down . . . different guys. P .D: I can i m agine it w ould have been an interest ing t r ip . N.F: Yes in those days they wouldn't have the h ighways .. . w ell my brother has been down there for over thirty years .. . he left R idgeway and s old h is bus iness w h en he ca me out of the air force and he moved to Texas, and he made himself a fortu ne d o w n t h e r e, h e is w o r t h over a m il l io n dolla r s in p r o p e r t y .. . he never had t o o m uch wh e n he w e n t d o w n b u t he borrowed a l l the money f r om t h e banks dow n t h e r e , it's easy t o bor row money f r o m the banks dow n t here, t h e r e ( is a boa r d , a n d you s t e p in front of t h is b o a r d a n d t h ey l o a n you ten thousand and you make good so the next t ime you get fifty thousand dolla r s and that's how he built h i mself on other people's money . . . well he w a s d o w n selling a irplanes for Flee t after, and h e just got scout ing around t o see where was a good place t o s e ttle s o Houston was really prosper ing, so w ith all the m o n ey h e had h e bought property outs ide of the city . . . then he started t o build apa r t ments and what they call warehouses down there, and I call them fact o r ies but he used to build a warehouse, just w ith angle iron, put on t in and s p ray it w ith a foa m su bstance on the ins ide to keep the heat and the cold out, and then maybe he would make fou r ... four l ittle factories there, just enough to start u p a l ittle bus iness of some k in d , if you were in the plu m b ing bus iness you'd have a little plu m b ing shop on one corner and on a nother corner som eth ing else . . . h e used t o build them and rent them out . . . and then t h e c it y built right out to him . . . that's where he m ade h is money . . . he owns property in F reeport Texas, Marble F alls and on L y ndon Johnson ( (13) �( Lake , and h e had got a daugh ter a son-in-la w in Dallas, a doct o r, he bu ilt h i m a b ig clinic and then h e lives in Houston, r ight on the outskirts of Houston. N.F: He made quite the dec is ion when he left d idn't he. P.D: Well h e had a lot o f ne rve, but m y father he neve r would ever ... he never did have the nerve to do anyth ing , he wouldn't gam ble on noth ing ... and I was just about the same way I could only be fooled . thirty-five years ago when I moved here . .! could have owned th is whole corner here from M ark S m ith , he used to be a r ich bachelor in F ort E r ie and h e owned all the m stores on Jar v is Street, and h e owned all th is property ... and he wanted to sell it to m e w ith noth ing down, it w as all rented, e ve ryth ing was rente d , yes I would have been living h e r e . . . so noth ing down I coul d have made the payments, I coul d have been a millionaire h e r e .. . th is whole cor ne r and then h e offered me some place s in the south end there on Forsyth and Waterloo, there are apertment houses on that s id e , no apartme n t houses in front and t h e n a h ouse in t h e back . . . and h e offered i t ( to m e f o r eleven thousand dollars , with noth ing down, a n d a l l r e n t e d , because he started to go t o Flo rida at t h a t t ime e v e r y w inter a n d h e d id n't want the t r o u ble w ith o w n ing them . . . all h e want e d was the interest coming in ... he d idn't care how much pricipal you paid as long as that int e r e s t was coming in and it was paid u p and t h is Jamie , that's Ja m ie's F oodland, well h is fath e r ca m e along and paid fifteen thousand dollars fo r those apart m ents about three weeks after he offered the m to m e and I could have sold it to him . . . so I lost four thousand dollars r ight there in a matter of w eeks. N.F: A t one t i m e F ort E r ie was a bootlegging centre. P.D: Oh yes. they had both , bootlegging and rum running all along t h e way from C osy Dell c l e a r down here to these docks, yes t h e y used to load boats so they could take them to Cuba, oh yes and st raight over to Buffalo. N.F: That's a very fast t r ip . . P..D: They s mu ggled C h inamen over and everyth ing. (14) �( N.F: When would that have been that they moved the C h inese, was that before the rum running ? P .D: Well these were pretty well all going on around the same t ime. N.F: It was around the s a m e t i m e ? P.D: Yes , I don't know if it is to be believed o r not but from what I hear . .. they tell m e they used to put the m in burlap bags t o take t h e m over by boat , and then if the C oast Guard or anyone should c o m e along . . . t h e y w o u l d j u s t du m p the m i n the r iver . . . just let the m go ... then they used to have this . .. where the school is down here at the . sh ipyar d , the m a r ina is . .I never s a w it but they claim that they have tunnels right unde rneath t o g o into that building . . . ! heard about it but I never d id g e t to see it . N.F: That w ould have bee n the B il t m o r e C lub at that t i m e ? P.D: N o , it was s o m e k ind of a hotel, B il t m o r e certainly sounds l ike it , s o m e k ind of a c lu b , and then t h e y ' d tell m e that this place of F rank P a t t ison, had tunnels , reme m b e r these k ids here a few years ago , d iscovered t h e open ing f o r a tunnel i n there . . . w e l l t h a t i s w h e r e ( t h e y u s e d to store these C h ina m e n . . . and then t h e y w ould t a k e the m out and b e off w it h t h e m. N.F: It w ouldn't be not iceable at all, so bootlegging w as popular ? P.D: All over town .. . espec ially in the w e s t end, up around H o r t on S t e el there . . . pretty near e v e r y one of t h e m s ide streets was a bootlegger one right after the o t h e r , on both s ides . . . w e w e r e just talking the other day , Fish Thom pson is gone I guess, that seems to have cleaned up all the bootleggers around here , in this part of Fort E r ie . N.F: For Fort E r ie itself it may have. P.D: Where was I up in the R idgeway Leg ion the other day and a girl was saying yes there are bootlegger s around yet, because I know three in C rystal Beach ... well that's just normal because that's a su m me r resort ... s o m e th ings never change in C rystal Beach, that's where they put the welfare in the w inter t ime. N.F: Did you go t o E r ie B e ach ? P.D: Oh , yes . .. that w as , mother used to hook up the horse and buggy (15) �( and she had s o m e friends that were in the ice business out there where w e used to t ie u p the horse, and then we'd walk from there down the lake . . . a b ig w ide c e ment walk, and w alk all down through the park . . . the b ig Dance Hall, they tore that down, but it used to be a natu ral beac h , just a beaut iful beac h , and everyth ing w as really natural then and p icnics . . . that is where we used to have all the p icnics, l ike any women's outfit wanted a picnic why they used to have their picnics there on a S unday or any day . N.F: I t m ust have been busy. P .D: O h , yes sure it w a s , well that was a real place ... they had the train . running from t h e F er ry B oat out to the.. F erry boat run ning to E r ie Beach , and they h a d t h e boat g o ing over . . . and that was just f ifty cents ... she and I used to r ide over and back just for the boat r ide , we never g o t off on the other s id e . N.F: P.D: ( W e r e t h e r e m any bus inesses i n F or t E r ie ? Oh yes, t h is here J a r v is S t reet was the m a in place in t h i s , the no rth e n d. N.F: I t has always been l ike that ? P.D: Yes , J a r v is S t reet w as t h e m ai n t h ing, but there w e r e quite a few cloth ing stores and th ings . . . you could buy anyth ing . . . today you can't buy nothing h e r e , when they got down t o hav ing two b ig stores Loblaws and t h e A&P , later on and that' s n o t too long ago, but then t h e mall was built and then t h o s e p l a c e s d isappeare d , t h e LG . A. was the next biggest one to c ome in, has to do okay it's the only store left to buy anything in, and Brun tons they started down on Jarvis S treet . . . ! suppose most of them are doing fair but now they have got these b ig stores up in R idgeway and I th ink that they w ill hurt someone .. . ! don't know why they would put two b ig stores like that into one s mall area, and so close together . .. yes w e had three drug stores here at this end at one time on Jarvis Street . . . now we are lucky to have one, we d idn't have none for quite a wh ile. N.F: What were the drug stores ? P.D: There w as C ornell w as here . .. and C a m m was down below ... and in ( (16) �the m iddle one was Lons berry . . . three drug stores right the othe r side of Jarvis S t reet, but then we didn't have anything for quit e a wh ile until the I D A ca me in , well that's about all I know. N.F: Everyth ing helps , everyth ing adds g reatly, when did they take the roundhouse down, from the M ich igan C entral Yard? P.D: Oh they tore that down . . . 1960 is when the yard closed, and then they had one engine working here ... and I worked h e re for th ree years after that, I worked till 1963, C la r ence Benne r and I.. .he just died, he used to live over here on Jarvis Street .. �he and I worke d alone u p here for about three yea rs after ... then that's when I went to Welland and he took h is pens ion . .. a n d then they tore the rou ndhouse dow n r i g h t a w a y, they t o r e every thing down. N.F: There is noth ing left there now at all? P.D: Noth ing, noth ing but we eds and the snow, I don't know if the snow is gone t h e r e now o r not but there was some left there not too long ago . . . the town backs rig h t up at the end of Jarvis Stre et and dumps all t h e snow, oh h ell they dump it back way up h igh, it ( it stays t h e r e .. . well t h ere is a s t ay s cold ... lot of snow there in June, lots of t im e s . N.F: Th a t is diffe rent t oo. P.D: But th e G ra h am M a nufactur ing C ompa ny, t h a t is whe r e t h e r oun dh o u s e was . N.F: It must have been a big phy s ica l structure . P.D: Oh it was hug e , it used t o hold abou t twelve o r th irteen steam engines and then they had the tu rn table you see� .. it could turn th e m and run them into any stall you w ished .. :well it went from Phipps S t reet pretty near over t o Jarvis S treet, it's shape went around like that, like a g reat big half moon. N.F: That is huge. P.D: It held a lot of engines .. . and there were a lot of men work ing there and then those steam engines they had cinder p its�;�they were;-. . they would run the engine over these pits and then use a shaker bar and they would shake all the cinders out of the engines . .. ( (17) �' ·-� ( and they would have t o shovel them out . .. and then towards the end they had a . . . they could hump the engines and they and bucket s , w ith an elevator for them to go on, more automatic instead of doing it by hand . .. that's when they started to do away w ith the men.. . then they had to have men in the coal docks too, they worked there load ing and such . . . but the coal docks weren't used for long aft e r that . . . it led to a lot of unem ploy m ent. N.F: F o r t Erie has grow up qu ite a bit , and grown out from what it was? P.D: F ort E r ie never s e e m e d to populate too m u ch though , it went along back in the old days there was th is fu r n itu r e store and old man A t w ood owned it , he and th e m , they w e r e all the reeves and c oun c il m en and the m ayor . . . and they never wanted nothing to come in . . . they j u st w a nted the i r l ittle old tow n that th ey could r u n by th e m selves . . . a n d t h e y w oul dn't allow an ything else i n h ere ... and that i s w h y it d idn't build up. N.F: ( That is a sh a m e . P.D: A n d w h e n th e F le et c o m e in . . . well, that helped a lot a n d see durin g th e war ti m e they brought in so many outsiders lik e form Que bec, a n d all out th r ou gh th e w este rn provinces ... j u st th e s a m e a s my w ife c a m e . . . well that is a lot of w h at helped populate F ort E rie . N.F: I s u p pose that a lot stayed afte rwar ds, yes . P.D: A lot of th e m afte r the war was ove r th ey l i k e d it here bette r th an out in the w e s t s o m e plac e , or whereve r they had c o m e from . . . so a lot of the m stayed h e r e . . . outs ide of that the populat ion would never have e x panded. N.F: Was the a m alga m a t ion itself a popular idea ? P.D: Oh yes, well it started off in three sect ions . . Jike there was . . . they took B ridgeburg away and they made it F ort Erie North . . . and they called the other end, the original F ort E r ie , that was F ort E r ie South ... and where A magari was they called it Fort E r ie West .. . that is how it started ...and then eventually we all, named it all Fort E r ie ... just l ike they merged it all the same way as they d id when they brought in Reg ional Government. . . yes see all of a sudden ( (18) �( here we are these three places and they are all merged together l ike that . N.F: Wh en you were young a n d l iving out on Sunset, what is now S unset would you have gone to S t evensville for any of your shoppi9g or would you have c o m e into F ort Erie? P.D: Oh well at that t i m e th ere was the only pl �ce you could go to get any feed was the feed m ill, and there was only one in Stevensville and R idgeway, if you wanted to get anyth ing, say you r grain ground up or anyth ing there w as noth ing in F o rt Erie so you went eith er to S t eve ns v ille o r R id g e way ;; Stevensville an d our . then there was hotels h a lfw ay between p la ce: .. there was one out here on R id gem o un t Road, that used to be a hotel..:and of course that was the horse and buggy days, why they c�Ued t hem half-way houses::. when the far m ers would come home, there was a hotel in Stevensville and when they come hom e by the time an hour or so had passed they would be at this half-way house, and they would stop over there ( ... and then they could continue on hom e : .. if they come from Ridgeway, there was another one up wher e I think t hey called that Stonemill Road now, that used to be Windmill Point but t h e y call it Stonemill Road now, and there was one up here right near the Dominion, the corner of Do minion and Windmill, no w that was a half-way house, there and then you could I'd hea r d that ter m before and I never knew exactly what t hey were if you come from Ridgeway you could stop come on home. N.F: referring to. P.D: These people would have farms, and do their far ming too::. and they would run their l ittle saloon, but you see they weren't crowde d like they a r e today, they h a d t h e o l d spittoons; and liquor used to be maybe ten cents a.:-: maybe two ounces for a dime:::nickel beers, that's how the old t i m ers has their fun; they had fun out of it.;: they had a lot of fun:;:and my mother when she wanted to go shopping she went to F ort Erie, and she gathered up her eggs; and her butter, which she w ould make in a roll; she had these wooden pound things, (19) �( she could make it u p in pounds ... she would make some up in pounds but that was just for a few odd customers she had, and the ones that she took into the store , would be a round roll, these she would take her wooden ladle and m ark the m , you know , make them look good, then she would wrap it, or those, up into t issue paper and one week or so she would come down Bowen Road, now it wasn't under the subway, that subway was not built in those days... you had to go slant ing across the tracks there out at, out at P e t it Road ... where the U n ion C entre is , where M iller's Auto W reckers is ... there is where you kept bear ing to the left, and that went r ight s t raigh t d o w n and clea r ing across all those railroad tracks . . . u n t il you hit beh in d t h e R io Vist a Golf C ourse, and that is where you would c o m e d o w n i s right there, t h a t w a s t h e B o w e n R oad, a n d t h a t w a s the only was that you could get into t o w n . . . on t h is side . . . then there was a store u p here on Central A venue, Hanses S tore they calle d it, t w o brothers they h a d it , and m y m o t h e r would take h e r but t e r ( in t h e r e and h e r e g g s and s t u f f and she would get her groce ries, and then they would w e igh u p the bu t t e r and stuff . . . well m aybe t h is w e ek she m ight o w e f ifty cents or a dollar . . . well that would be on the book . . . you never paid it, no cash handled . . . and the next time she w ould c o m e d o w n and come around the other way on t h e Gil m o r e R o a d , b y the F le e t there . . . and M alcol m 's S tore was over t h ere, h e was a j u dge at one t ime, Judge M alcolm r ight across from t h e Grand Trunk Hot e l now, o n t h e corner h e had a store, it has b urned down now . .. and she would do the same thing there take in her butter and her eggs and stuff ... and there would be a bill there maybe when she got all through he would owe her a dollar, well then they would let that go for the next week . . . and that is how she worked both of these stores ... and then she had d ifferent houses w h ere they m ight just w ant a pound or t w o or a dozen eggs , and then she used to drop t h e m off at the house for the m .. . and I can just r e m e m ber when I w as young maybe she would buy me a candy and a pack of gum, that was a lot back then ... it was a lot d ifferent (20) �( then, than it is now . N.F: Yes that is for sure. P.D: Oh yes, and then w e had the trip . . . to Crystal Beach . .. we always went to Crystal Beach on F armer's P icnic . . . they always had a farmer's picnic for the far m ing boys, so we would got a day out of school for that . . . all us country ones . . . and we would all go u p to Crystal Beach for t h e F arm er's P icnic, and you got cut rate prices on some of the things and then you would meet these g irls fro m Buffalo these A m ericans would come over here and they used to n ickname us farmer boys, they used to k i d us about be ing farmer boys.. . and then when w e could see them they used to have long dresses, well they would kind of s h o r t e n their dresses, and they had what they would call j azz g arte r s, and they wore the m below t h e ir knee . .. they were a s ilk garter about two inches w ide and they would put th e m on and boy we c o u l d see them these j azz garters and you really thought you were look ing at s o m e t h ing ... we never r e m e mbe r too much o f t h a t , any m o r e ( the o t h e r d a y and I I w as looking at an old class picture j u s t realized t h a t pretty n e a r a l l of t h e m are dead now, o f all t h e ones I w e n t to school w it h , s o m any of them are dead. N.F: W hen you first m o v e d h e r e to C entral A v e n u e , who were y o u r n e ighbo u r s ? P.D: Oh , N.F: Th is would have alw ay s been c o m m e rc ial then. P.D: Yes th is was always in the business section, the c o m m ercial d istrict I never had no n e ighbours here. here . . . see t h is here building at one time was owned by John D . James he owned where the C re d it Union is here , well that was h is general store , that is where my mother used to c o m e shopping too, he had a ge neral store here , and behind here where m y garde n is , well that w as h is lu m ber m il l , he had a l ittle lum ber m ill there and this was h is barn . . . so then after that the Ziff brothers come here, you know Louis Ziff, they came here and they built it up a little b it and they had a gas pu m p out front , one of those round c ircular ones, that was right off the front here . . . well they d idn't run it very long (21) �( and R oss S m it h bought it and he r e m odelled it and he m ade an apart m ent upstairs, and this level h e fixed u p for the Junio r Chambe r . . . the J u n io r Chamber had th is for, well they had it when I came here, and they had it about a year after I came here, and they rented it off from me until they got that golf cou rse u p there . . . so they bu ilt a lit tle buil d ing of their own up there, a clubhouse like and they left here . . . and after they left here I just put a few par t i t ions in here for storage like I've got now some on the other side here and I've got a pool table , and I've got a collect ion of hats here . . . well once in a wh ile s o m e one moves away and b r ings m e another hat . . . s o I don't know if w e get any older the guy next door that bought F ickels why he is talk ing abo u t buy ing th is . . . so I don't know , I don' t lik e the thought of mov ing into an apa r t m e n t , i know I ' d b e los t , I ' ve g o t a workshop h e r e a n d I garden a n d I t h r o w snow around , sit u n d e r that big maple tree, it may be an old shack but I th ink we would be los t . N.F: ( I bet you would be . P .D: A n apa r t ment is j u s t a place to live . . . the way I've got it f ig u r e d every t i m e I got my vacat ion I w e n t t o T e x a s to see m y brother and m y other brother is in F lo r ida, they stay there for s ix months, and I can go e ither place and that is what an apart m ent would be good for, you wouldn't have to look after a house, the sa m e way that w e do now , wor rying abou t fre ezing pipes and whatnot , I could just lock h e r u p and not have t o worry . . . we jus t came back from W innipeg, we went out t o see the w ife's. sister she is s ic k , and I j u s t d rove my car out there and back . N.F: You have been happy w i t h F or t E r ie then ? P.D: Oh yes , well I'd have t o be that's the only place that I ever worked, well everyth ing was always home t o m e , I never had far to go t o work, w h e n I w a s young c o u l d even walk u p t o the subway, so in fact if the w eather was too bad I could always walk , just straight up Jarvis S treet and I ' d be on the yard . . . so that wasn't too bad, and the hotels in those days . . . the N e w York Central used to be (22) �pa id on the tenth and the twenty-fifth . . . and the C . N . used to get paid on the f ifteenth a n d the th i r tieth , so the hotels always had fou r good days . N.F: They certa inly would . P.D: They had fou r good days a m onth anyhow you know .. ;and then betw een t i m es if you wanted a drink, and you d idn't have any m oney . . . why then you would have to charge it, s i m ply put it on the books . . . all these stores used to be pr ivate stores and you w ould go down and buy you r grocerie s and ju s t charge it .. . it was all cha rges, there was no cash and c a r ry . . . you charged e ve r y th ing , you had y o u r own book . . . the storekeeper w ould have a w h ole shelf o r shelves of boo ks , with your I got what i n i t ials o n , you so you w e n t in and y ou got you r m ea t , w a n t e d to eat during the w ell then on payday, when that c a m e , week, a n d charge it y ou all. . . you went down and you had to pay these bills, by the t i m e you paid all t h e bills and had th r e e o r fou r dolla rs wor t h of bee r , you we re broke again .. . and you would be back char ging again , and that is the way it w o r ked... but t oday now with these big sto res now you can't cha r g e and that is t he only t rouble.. . but all these sto res were all run on cred it, N.F: Yes you would know everybody , but that is w h y one. And you would know eve r y body. P.D: every and pa y day s used to be t wo weeks, and som e between paydays t im e s they w ou l d run ove r , s ixteen day s before you got p a id . . . and the pay was s m all , so after you got your b il ls paid you d id n 't have noth ing left . . . well you charged in cloth ing stores and butcher shops , and grocery s t o res everyth ing was charge d ; well really a lot of them went brok e , s o m e g u y s y o u k n o w wouldn't pay , they always cla imed that the best paid on the railroad was the enginee r , and yet they were the hardest m e n to get the m oney out oL: the hardest fam ilies to get the m oney out of, it was always l ike that : . : a n d l ike you take the section men they were the lowest paid, and they would pay up the i r b ills r ight up, better than the engineer d i d : N.F: You would have known your politic ians back then; (23) �( P.D: Oh , yes, all of them , if you got into any t rouble in them days you just called up your M e m be r of Parlia m e n t , and he'd tell you . . . oh forget about it I'll have it fixed up for you t omor row . N.F: Is that r igh t i well that was good. P.D: S o m e of the names are Billy W illson in R idgeway , well he was a conse rvative . . . and m y fathe r was r a is ed as a liberal. . . the wi:. m e n didn't have no votes in t h e m days a n d I r e m e m be r when s h e got her f irst vote . . . she told him that she was going to go out and k ill you r vote . . . w h ich they w ouldn't d o , first they w ould talk it over and dec ide . . . but that w as h o w she would t alk , she w as going to do h is vote in now . . . then aft e r B illy W illson there was B ill H ouck , h e ran a big dairy far m on the N iagara Boulevard so he w as t h e next m e mbe r of parlia m ent for around h e r e . . . s o everybo d y k n e w h i m too, because he w as the s am e k in d of a fellow , o n l y they w e r e m o r e t e m pe rance . . . B illy W illson h e al w ay s playe d g ol f at E r ie Downs . . . and then you take l ike aft er they lost t h e be er license and the liquor ( license years ago, then they h a d r o o m ing houses, like the Barnea H ouse d o w n here, that w as j u s t a roo m ing house and the Bucket I call it , what is the real nam e , I've forgotten . . . well I call it the Bucket anyway . . . a n d that was just a r oom ing h o u s e , everyth ing w e nt d r y , the hotels and such they couldn't sell o r serve anything alcoholic at all a t that time . . . and t h e n l ik e m y father if h e got sick a n d h e wanted a bottle o f w h iskey o r anything . . . h e used t o g o t o Doc Buell, go to Doc Buell o u r fam ily doctor in S tevensville . . . and he had t o get a pres c r i p t ion, and then h e would have to sen d that to M ontreal, oh yes, h e would get the w h iskey by the gallon . . . yes h e would g iv e you a prescript ion for a gallon of w h iskey . . . send to M ontreal . .. and then the mailman . . . he would be watc h ing for the m a il ma n for days and days and days . . . until the mailman came along and he would have the jug of w h iske y , all in a box . . . so it would take maybe three weeks before he could get h is liquor . . . that's the way they used to get their l iquor in them days you see in M ontreal you could b u y w h iskey , but not in Ontario . . . and there is something ( (24) �( else I've got to tell you about . . . you talk about bootleggers . . . there used to be about e igh t or n ine book makers around town. N.F: You mean here in F ort E r ie ? P.D: Oh yes . . . if you go r ight on up t o this here place r ight behind my place here . . . this long b u il d ing . . . and this was run by the Hawk ins fa m ily, you know that is old Harry Hawk ins . . . and they would have boards . . . big black boards l ike you would have in a school house . . . all along these walls . . . and each blackboa r d would have a Racet rack on it . . . Hialeah , P im l ic o , all d ifferent Racetracks . . and then there was a guy walking on t h e platfo r m , all these blackboards were raised up a bit . . . and t h is guy would have earphones on, and he w as getting all t h e results . . . and they would have all these horses marked on these black boards, d ifferent h orses for d iffe rent tracks . . . and they had a regular w icket w h e r e you could go u p and make y o u r bets . . . fifty cents, fifty cents was the lowest bet I th ink you could make . . . fifty cents, dollar, t w o dollars , whatever you wanted t o bet, but fifty cents was the lowest and w e ' d c h ip together a qua r t e r a p iece ( and bet a horse . . . and t h is guy u p on the platfo r m he would tell you as the horses w e r e r u n n ing . . . he'd call t h e m off j u s t the same as Daryl W ells . . . and when the race was over h e would mark a ring around the m and that was the w inne r . . . and then eventually h e would get the p r ices, and h e would mark t h e p r ices d o w n . . . and you went u p t o the w icket and you cashed your bet . . . you see there w as a book here and there was one down at the foot of C ou r t w r ight S treet . . . and then up to the south end there were three or four of the m . . . there were a lot of the m u p there . . . but they w e re pract ically all f inanced by the Hawkins , you see they w e re quite wealthy people in F or t E r ie , a n d getting w e alth ier . N.F: That is the same fam ily then that owned the Queen's Hotel ? P.D: Yes . . . and that house on the corner, you know behind the Queen's Hotel. . . r ight across fro m the Legion . . . well she used to run a book room in the base m ent of that house . . . and then they had a n old building that was on the north s ide . . . and you used to go upstairs ( (25) �( and they had a w o m a n running a book there . . . l ike the h igher class of people went down in t h e base m e n t , where it was n ic e , and she used to run it herself . . . and then she had th is oth e r girl run it upstairs at the other . . . and that was for the lower class of people . . . and then behind, r ight bac k , across the street from the E r ie Lane, I call it the E r ie Lane, it's G ra m my ' s now . . . right across from R obe's Gas Station, there was an old build ing across th e alley th ere, F orsyth S t reet runs th is w ay , east and west, on F orsyth S t reet there was a b ig long building there was a book room there. N.F: I never realized that it was that b ig a business, they must have had A m erican customers also . P.D: Oh y e s , it was a b ig bus iness and that is where a lot or most of the custo m e r s come fro m , the A m e r icans . . . but it was always busy . . . and they must have been mak ing m oney becau s e they never stopped . . . and t h e c h ief of police h e never bothered the m . N.F: P.D: ( Who was ch ief at that t i m e ? A ndy G r iffin was t h e c h ie f when they were really w ide open . . . and of course he was a good friend of the Hawk ins . . . but w e n e v e r had too m any police . . . I r e m e m be r one police run the whole t o w n , d a y a n d n ig h t . . . old C a r t e r , he used a M odel A ca r , a n d he w o u l d be police b o t h n ig h t a n d d a y . . . and t h e n t h e r e w e r e s o m e before that .. . like I got arrested for rid ing a b icycle over here on Phipps S t reet , on the s idewalk . . . on m y bicycle . . . we took a ride one S u n day m e and another fello w , and we got u p on the sidew alk , boy that was because the streets was all rough and stones, so we got u p on the sidewalk, oh that was a nice s m ooth ride and we only rode about a short d istance and he w aved a newspaper at us . . . s it t ing on the veranda . . . old Dowd I th ink was h is name, he waved a newspaper at us and he c o m e out and h e took ou r names and addresses, and give us a su m mons . . . s o w e d idn't know , I took it home and Jezz did I get a t r i m m ing . .. ! had to g ive this su m mons to m y father . . . and the other fellow , a neighbou r who lived next door, h e had to take his home to h is father . . . and the court house was right across here someplace, over by the firehall here . . . and my mother c o m e ( (26) �( down w ith m e in the horse and buggy , and we stopped at the railroad and m y fathe r had told us to stop, and I guess he gave u s all the money h e had in h is pocket . . . well we come down and theycharged u s four dollars apiece . . . well my fathe r in the m days w as only g e t t ing about two o r three dollars a day . N.F: Wow , that is a lot of money . P.D: Well you know what we had to do then . . . when we got back on the far m was do a little work . . . and I do m ean a l it tle work . N.F: B r idgeburg always had a fire station, or c o m pany ? P.D: Yes, all horses and f ire wagons . . . over here r ight by Don Dean's . . . Benners us ed to have t h e ir team . . . and they had the harnesses drop right over the horses . . . that was it . . . horses would j ust go crazy when they would hear the fire bell. N.F: It m u s t have been exc iting at that t i m e . P.D: But I was pretty young for t h e m days to know too much about th e m , I j u s t can re m e mbe r because I h a d a n uncle w h o lived on P h ipps Street, a n d we u s e d to c o m e down and play cards at n ight at th is uncle's . . . and I r e m e mbe r he belonged to the fire c o m pany when that happened, and that is how I r e m e mbe r e d . N.F: D i d they m o v e the f ir e s tat ion when they got the trucks ? P. D : Y e s they put it in the town hall. . . that is where it was moved ove r on the other s ide of the town hall, and they had j u s t a s m all plac e , i f y o u h a d a fire m e e t ing, t h e f ire m e n couldn't all g e t in i t , used to have to back the trucks out . . . and m ake a lit tle spot to have a meet ing . . . and then this used to be the town tool shanty r ight here, that is when I moved h e r e , they used to make repa irs here, and it was st ill a tool shanty . . . and then afte r they moved over on Lew is Street, where they are now , well then they made a fire hall out of this . N.F: So that is when that was done. P.D: Yes, so they put the front on first for the trucks . . . then G u y V iolino, he put the extentions on it . . . he put the last one on . . . so we've got { (27) �( a n ice little hall over there now . . . we had a b ig s t reet dance here, on Satu r day n ight . . . but it raine d at eleven o'clock at n igh t , neve r rained at S tevens v ille , o r R idgeway , and it just s plashe d down h e r e it s t a r t e d at eleven o'clock . . . j u s t s h e n everybody w a s gett ing p r i m ed up . . . everybody was rar ing to go and get out and dance , just got started, and the rain started, it just splashe d down and last e d about an hou r , just enough that everybody went h o m e , and spoiled the even ing , the whole thing, we lost a lot of money on that. N.F: F o r sure y e s , how long has the c o m pany in the north e n d here, and all the c o m pan ies been having the ir parades and dances ? P .D: . The street dance we h a d here . . th is is only about the second one w e had recently . . . b u t w e intend to have one yearly n o w . . . and N u m be r T w o C o m pany u s e d t o have dances a t t h e Racetrack, that w a s years ago at the B e r t ie F a ir as I was tell ing you . . . but that had to be a long t i m e ago because I was only a k i d . N.F: ( They've been do ing it f o r a long t i m e the n . P.D: N u m be r One C o m pany , they've been hav ing that J a m boree there for quite a w h ile . . . number one handles it but we all alway s j o ined in w ith w o r k ing w it h t h e m , all the c o m panies go in and then there are a lot of c o m panies f r o m t h e s tates that come ove r . .. they have quite a parade because w e are always on the front of t h e parade . . . pretty well i n the front, and w e are back dr inking beer in the park here and the parade is s t ill c o m ing out of the school grounds where they fo r m u p . . . so it is a long parade, it goes clear down W in te r m u t e across t h e N iagara Bouleva r d , and t h e n u p Gilmore a n d into the g rounds . . . so it really is a long parade , and they have that every year. N.F: They really had a good parade in 1 9 5 7 , the firemen really fit in well for F o r t E r ie's Centennial Year, the firemen worked extra hard that year. P.D: Oh hell, they were up o n top of my roof here, people were all over everywhere when that w ent by . . . well that w as a b ig one . . . that w as really a b ig parade . ( N.F: The bridge , C entral A v e nue b r idge was u p then wasn' t it ? (28) �{ P.D: Yes . . . yes, that w as u p . N.F: I've heard that it was a hu ge, long, long parade . P.D: O h , yes it was . . . well yes they brought all those g irls from M c Van's you know, M c Van's over in Buffalo at the corner of H ertel and N iagara . . . M c Van's they have torn that building down now . ; -. but that used t o be a real . . . all the m ovie stars from H ollywood used to c o m e and stop there on their vacations . . . because Mr. M cV a n had a r e a l good d r a g w ith a l o t of b i g shots . . . a n d I m e t R ochester who used to be w ith and appear with Jack Benny . . . he came over here j u s t to stop in for one weekend . . . and he ended u p s t a y ing the whole w eek . . . he'd say " w h a t a good t i m e you fellows have around here" and e v e r y body was buying h i m drinks . . . but I danced w ith the K ing S is t e r s o v e r t h e r e , all three of t h e m . . . and g ir l w h o u s e d t o s ing f o r C a m pbell's Tomato I danced w ith .. a S o u p � oh it u s ed to b e q u i t e a t i m e . . . a n d t h e y would j u s t l e t their h a i r d o w n because they w e r e really on a vacation . . . a n d Mr. M c V a n u s e d t o pay them . . . h e place would b e j u s t j a m m e d pac ked . . . w e l l , pr o bably h e g av e { them enough for t h e i r m eals a n d a few d r inks a n d s tuff like t ha t , t h ey d id n ' t w a n t no b ig m on e y . . . they was j u s t h av i n g of on vacation . . . and d id n ' t have t o pay for a good t i m e , sort it� .. so there w e re a bunch of t he m , a couple of hay rack loads of t h e m that w e n t in t h a t p ar a de , that w e n t by here . . . and t h e m a s t e r of c e r e m on ies . : . h e was h e r e . and in on that too . . . bu t e v ery body kn e w one another . J ' d t ake s o m ebody ove r , some of my rela t ives , maybe a d istant relat ive who lived far from here and we'd go over there to M c V an's . . . and I' d get the master of cere m onies behind s t age and I would tell h i m they w ere here v is i ting from such and such, and he would get u p on t h e s t age . ; ;and announce their names and they couldn't figure out how in the w o rld he knew this , and h e would make them stand u p . : . oh , and that w as the way t h e place worked, it was really interes t ing . . . everyone s i m ply had a good t i m e . N.F: Yes I bet they di d, did F ort Erie go th rough a rat ioning period in the Second W orld War ? ( P.D: Oh yes , everyth ing was ratione d . (29) �( N.F: D id it really get to a severe point in F ort E r ie ? P.D: Well nobody suffered too m u ch . . . because you was trad ing one coupon off to somebody else for anoth e r c oupon . . . and gasoline, well you could get some of these places they got the gasoline somehow or other . . . you could even buy phony gasol ine t ickets . N.F: I never real ized F o r t E r ie got involved in those th ings. P.D: Oh yes, we had a fellow h e r e , right down at the end of the street here . . . he had a gas stat ion and hell, he had to take those t ickets and put them in the bank too, those t ickets after they took t h e m b a c k in, y o u k n o w a f t e r t h e y bought g a s . . . b u t he h a d coupons they would feel just l ike that plate, a th ick paper plate . . . but I wouldn't take no chances by going t o a ny other gas station, I'd always g e t m y g a s from h i m . . . and I guess m ay be t h a t was what h e want e d . N.F: I t sure could have been y e s . P.D: I ' d always take them back to h i m . . . and then I used to . . . when I was w o r k ing the ra ilroad , n igh t s , I used to work for A rch ie M ac Glashen . . . ( h e run the F ort E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . down at the foot o f J a r v is . N.F: That w as the name of i t , the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany ? P.D: Y e s the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . h e had p iles of coal in there . . . stoker coal, h e used t o g e t it in there by the barge loads , th is stoker coal. . . well then I used to run that big crane, that c rane had a n inety foot b o o m on it . . . and I used to g o down and help him run that c rane . . . m y brother ran it first . . . when the war broke out he had ju s t got h is c o m m e r c ial license . . . s o they grabbed h i m and took h i m in the A ir Force r ight away . . . so I used to go down there . . . this M ik e S t o r m t h a t h a s this contract bus iness h e r e . . . w e l l he used t o r u n it , b u t he h a d a business of h is own, a n d he j u s t couldn't p u t in a l l that time . . . so between m y young brother and I , we used to run the c rane fo r A rc h ie MacGlashen . . . and then he was selling stokers, and putting them in . . . well, I used to go around putt ing in stokers, in people' s furnaces i n m y spare t i m e . . . a n d then we were loading scrap iron, we would push in a . . . the railroad would push in a whole bunch of e m pty cars down there . . . and w e would have a barge load of scrap ( (3 0) �iron c o m e in . . . and we had a magnet, for the crane, and w e used to p ick it u p . . . and load all these cars up, because it was always shipped by rail . . . the scrap iron was during the war . . . oh that was a . . . really a going concern down there . . . that was really s o meth ing . . . he done a g reat business down there . . . and then h e used to have this sand dock too . . . s i licate sand they called it, that's something else they used t o ship out too . . . W illia m s , Bud W illia m s of the W illiams G old R e f inery, they had a share into that, you s e e M ac G lashen h e h a d I th ink fifty-one percent or someth ing s o h e could h a v e control l ing interest of it . . . and W illiams had the rest . . . but M acGlashen he operated it all, and it was a l ittle extra spending money for me .. .I'd be working n ights and oh, s o m e t i m e s you would get an extra two or three hours sleep at n ight on t h e r a ilroad on those benc h e s , those h ar d benches . . . that is w h e r e I got arthritis I th ink . . . sleeping o n t h e m benches . . . but hell in t h e m days w h e n you w e r e young you only needed t w o or three hours sle e p , and you were all s e t to go . . . as far as the m oney you m ade down there , it didn't d o no good . . . you would spend it maybe before you got h o m e . . . o r charged that much, whatever you made you would have it p u t o n t h e book s o m e place . . . y e s there w e re a lot of boats used t o c o m e in h e r e , and then they brought soft coal in there, and it u s e d t o come f r om Toledo, Ohio, boats run ning back and fo rth , that w a s the old coal dock they called it . s t ok e r s . . e v e r y b o d y in t o w n that c o u l d affo rd one had a c o a l stoker . in t h e i r furnace . . . a good i d e a . . . oh it w a s a l l r ight i n t h e m days unt il the coal got bad, and then, see I was gett ing telephone calls all the time to come and fix people ' s stokers . . . they got s tones , the stones got m ixed u p in it, in the coal . . . MacG lashen had gravel and stuff down there too . . . they used to get the gravel r ight across the r iver here , y e s they could take gravel r ight out, just over across the r iver, and h e w ould b r ing a scow load over there and h e was selling gravel there then too . . . and then the k ids were throw ing the gravel around these stone p iles and coal p iles . . . well, in the furnace then, the stones would work their way against the stoker wor m and shear the p in (3 1) �( off . . . then they w ould be calling me to come and help t h e m . . . they have got no heat . . . and t h e k ids would freeze to death . . . if I was h o m e a n d wasn't working I ' d h a v e to g e t u p i n the m iddle of the night and go out and fix s o m e body's stoker . N.F: That would be a m is e rable job, yes. P .D: Well you know , you didn't m ind it then when you were young, and working was s i m ply a w ay of life . . . if you weren' t doing someth ing else . . . you were work ing . . . but th is A rc h ie M ac G lashen he was a real n ice fellow though, yes anytime I needed any m oney, why, I'd j u s t go down to h im. N.F: I hear that h e d id a lot for the com munity too. P.D: Yes h e was a great C h a m be r of C o m merce man t oo, F ort E r ie ' s C h a m b e r of C o m m e r c e . . . h e was a g o o d man . . . h e c o u l d figure i n h is h e a d a s f a s t as y o u c o u l d w ith a pencil . . . an d t h a t man could re m e m be r anyth ing . . . h e had a good m e m o r y , h e w ould s c ratch h is head when h e wanted to call . . . maybe call Ottawa, s o m ebody in Ottawa about a boat load of s o m e th ing, and h e w ould j ust scratch ( his head a l it tle w h ile a n d then he would dial t h e nu m b e r . .. that is the m e m o ry h e had, yes h e was fine . . . well h e helped bu ild the W indsor Tunnel, and how h e got t o F ort E r ie was t h e P eace B r idge . . . see they built the W indsor Tunnel, and if you g o th rough that t r affic tunne l , well t h e r e is a c u r v e in it . . . it goes around a c u r v e , and t h e n int o the U n it e d S tates at D e t r o it . . . and they started from the o t h e r end, a n d t h e y s t a r t e d f r o m th is e n d a n d he t o l d m e w h e n t h e y got together they were only three inches out . . . work ing from both ends underneath the water. N.F: To meet at a point l ike that. P .D: Yes sir, and they worked in com part men ts in that tunnel and all com pressed air you know . . . them guys got well paid, b igger than the ordinary salary, but they were rough , and he told me that there would be men die pretty near every other day, they would clear them out dead . . . they ' d d ie in there . . . and at the end of the week when pay day was . . . that gang that was working that week, you ( (3 2) • . . �( would never have them the next week . . . s o you w ould have to have anothe r gang , all ready to go in, and they would go in in the ir place and t h is other gang would go out at the ir sh ift end and booze up, s pend all the m oney they made, and when the alternate gang would go out , they would do the same th ing . . . and that gang was ready to come back in again . . . but he told m e he had run across a blacks m it h , he needed one of those f o r tools and everyth ing . . . and h e said "the best black s m ith he had was an alcohol ic, he was continuously all the t i m e d r inking, but he could really sharpen ch isels and th ing s , he r eally k n e w h is business about iron " , a n d he w a s a n alcoholic . . . yet h e was one of the best blac k s m iths they ever had, s t r ictly an alcoholic . . . well then aft e r they finished . . . that b ig c rane I was telling you about . . . they moved that from D e t r o i t , they brought it d o w n here a n d it w o r k e d on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . so h e , A rchie, w o r k e d on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . a n d j u s t the day before he d ie d , h e d ie d o n a S u n d a y , w a t c h i n g tele v is io n , h e l ived on t h e N iagara Boulev a r d , j u s t d o w n below F rench man's C re e k, he d rove out in f r o n t h e r e , ( in front of t h e h o u s e here on C e n t ral A venu e , a n d h e was tell ing m y w ife, h e says " you tell that husband of yours to get that belly off, or he ain't going to last long " , and he w en t home and d r op p e d dead in h is chesterfield t h e next day . N.F: I s n ' t that s o m e t h ing . P.D: B u t h e was really , really good t o m e . . . well l used to help h i m ·out ... wh enever h e wanted help . . . and he would loan me h is car, or t ruck or anyth ing I wanted, I couldn't be w ithout wheels. N.F: It m u s t have been busy down at those dock s , I've never realized how m uch they handled and did. P.D: Now you see that track ran right s traight through . . . r ight up in front of the R oyal Hotel there . . . maybe at one t i m e they took the steel off the tracks , tore it out , but the tracks used to run r ight back in, right back to the end . . . and that wall, started to cave out . . . because w e had that great big boom c rane must have w e ighed tons and t ons . . . and b ig w ide caterp illar treads on it they were huge . . . ( (3 3) �( well, you know , that wall started to sh ift out . . . so I helped h i m on that . . . w e d ig the ground away from the ins ide of the wall . . . and we drilled holes through that c e ment . . . oh the walls were about , two feet thick . . . we d r illed holes th rough that c e m ent and put bolts in and nuts and a cable . . . then w e dug a t rench oh halfway back t o ���·� that dock , we dug m ay b e from here to across the s t r ee t , a good fifty feet . . . dug a t rench about that w id e , maybe e ight inche s to a foot w id e , and d e e p , and filled that w ith stones and rocks and everyth ing and lay e d th is cable in, w ith clamps attached to it, you see the r e were c la m ps on the cable . . . and they would lay it back in, and fill that full o f c e m ent, and put them m aybe s ix feet apart . . . all along the length o f that w hole wall, and then let it d r y , and f ill it in . . . and that is w h a t is h o l d ing that wall today. N.F: That was a good idea. P.D: It is still s olid down t h e r e now . . . well that wall w ill never go u n t il those cables d e t e r iorate . . . that is the only th ing that w ill let it g o , y o u k n o w a l o t o f people d o n ' t k n o w anyth ing about t h a t . . . person ( I was going t o talk t o , I'll s e e h i m at lodge, t h e owner, U t iv i t c h , yes I'll tell h i m . N.F: The dock down there w as that a natural shape or m an- m ade ? P.D: Well, h o w it g o t s t a r t e d I don't know , it was all fille d , they j u s t k e p t filling a n d f illing, t h e y got a l l the d irt t h a t t h e y c o u l d g e t , it was bu ilt w a y u p towards the International B r idge, b u t t h e r e w a s another building at the s o u t h e n d of that dock t o o . . . w h e r e there was a laundry put in there at the south end of the dock one t i m e , they r u n a laundry ther e , a n d t h e r e w a s a carpenter s h e d where they made boxes for the Fleet A irc raft , and a carpenter shop in there too , of course that has been all torn down. N.F: And that is where Her b G ue s s eventually moved into was down there. P.D: No, Herb G ue s s is down ac ross from the Ohio Hotel, down further s till, that w as all filled in, there were two places down there . . . so he got one . . . and different ones lived in the other one, it was M rs . Bard o l that owned E r ie Beach a t one time, she lived i n a little ( (3 4) .• ��..;D% �{ cottage down there, next to H e r b Guess . . . then r ight out here . . . there was a water tank . . . stood r ight out behind t h e garden here, j u s t a big round water tank . . . fifteen feet around maybe , and s e venty feet h igh . . . and when they tore that dow n , to build the other water tank . . . they dropped h e r down, and they cut h e r u p I th ink into three s ilos, and that is what A rc h ie MacGlashen used t o store coal and stuff in aft e r that . . . and that is about all that I can tell you s i r . N.F: Thank you very m u ch for the intervie w , and for all of the interest ing information. (35) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Crystal Beach Subject The topic of the resource Crystal Beach, Ontario Description An account of the resource Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL -LH - Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Neil Findall Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Percy Detenbeck Location The location of the interview. Mr. Detenbeck's home at 545 Central Avenue, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Detenbeck, Percy Description An account of the resource Provided here is Percy Detenbeck's interview. He discusses such topics as: The Depression Railroad Recreaction Schools Bootlegging Erie Beach Business and industry Fleet Crystal Beach Amusement Park Politics Hotels and taverns Fire department Fort Erie Centennial World War II Factories and industry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection 1980s 1985 Centennial Erie Beach factories and industry Fleet Fort Erie Great Depression hotels and taverns Oral history politics railroad recreation schools stores and businesses transcripts world war II http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/b02d05341fd7908bbd6d5428c9361bca.pdf 58444b18914e93dee9a994c78a7052fa PDF Text Text Diana lfatthews interviewing Mr. Tom Derreck at the Town Hall, Fort Erie. May 2nd, ( 1985. D.M: Hi Tom. T.D: Hello, how are you. D.M: How long have you lived in Fort Erie? T.D: I've lived here just about two years. D.M: Did you move here because of a job? T.D: Yes. D.M: Tell me about your job, what do you do? T.D: Well, actually the job combines two former positions. Before I arrived in Fort Erie, the Town had an Administrator and a separate Municipal Clerk, which prior to my arrival, the Council had elected to combine those two positions, so I serve them both in combination now. Essentially, from the Clerk standpoint, I have delegated a good deal of those responsibilities to my Deputy Clerk, yet I retain control over our involvement in only those areas that I think have an impact on the corporation as a whole. For example, I am preparing for and operating the election, and were I to be staying, I would ( be managing that personally. Very often, the preparation of specific by-laws, the preparation of Council's rules and procedures is something, as Clerk, I do personally. But as I have said, I've delegated a great deal of these responsibilities to the Deputy Clerk, and she's been here for quite a few years. Going to the administrative side of my position, I have spent most of my time dealing with the labour relations situation in this community. When I first arrived, the labour relations were in a very poor state, that is the relationship between the C.U.P.E. local, which represents about 65 employees, and the management of the municipality. of our 85 Aside from labour relations, I've been involved in negotiations with the Canadian Niagara Power Corporation, which is just wrapping up now to renew a 50 year agreement for the provision of of hydro and electric power. to our community. I spent a good deal of time helping our Treasurer to develop a little more businesslike, a little more sophisticated attitude in terms of management. Current budget preparations, the monitoring of capital budgeting, which is long-term financial ( planning for the municipality. That's taken up a good deal of time, as it does every year. And I've also spent a good deal of my time (1) �121tter1pting to create a corporate approach to the Corporation's difficulties, and even those issues that aren't difficult, it's just to ( develop an attitude of corporate thinking among the various departments. In this line of work, and indeed it may be in any organization that has separate departments, there is a tendency for those departments to have a very narrow view of the corporation as a whole. In other words, they have missed their immediate responsibilities, almost in isolation, or with very little consideration of what impact their activities may have upon other departments or organizations. Through _the institution of weekly department head meetings, I have attempted to pull the department heads together to have us all in the same room to discuss difficulties or situations that appear on a daily basis in the various departments, and to involve the department heads in discussion. Like for example, if there's a difficulty in Treasury, and I feel it will assist the engineer, and assist the recreation director, I give them permission to become involved in the conversations about whatever their difficulty might be, and offer their suggestions and fresh points of view as to how it might be addressed. D.M: ( Why were the two jobs incorporated, the Clerk and the Administrator? T.D: I really don't know. I have to presume that the decision to do that was based on the Town's experience with my predecessor, and I don't mean that in a personal sense. They must have taken a look at the situation... I think it was about 5 years that my predecessor was on the job. D.M: Which one, the Clerk or the Administrator? T.D: The Administrator. The former Clerk had been with the Town for many many years. D.M: He retired, didn't he? T.D: He retired, yes that's right. So, I'm just guessing. They must have taken a look at the situation and decided they didn't need those two positions occupied separately. D.M: What type of shape is the Town in financially, is it good or bad and do you feel you have improved it since you arrived here? T.D: Well, that's a question that might be answered differently by each person you asked. The Town's financial position is not critical. However, ( I have been maintaining to the Council since very shortly after my arrival, but I have a concern about the lack of reserves that the Town of Fort Erie experiences. Also that our borrowing power, that (2) �Ls to say, the li mit of borrowing we can reach with the approval of the Ontario Municipal Board, is pretty severely confined. We ( have a number of debts at the present time. The debt load is something above average, I would say. Our debt costs per year are, again, something above average, but I don't believe ariy municipality should go to the limit of their borrowing capability. In fact, I think they should stay well below it if they can. The difficulty for our Council, I think, is that each Council, let's say, inherits a certain number of problems. Whatever has been done before them, they can't undo, but very often, there are a number of difficulties that remain from previous Council's, which new Council's, when they are elected, don't know they are there, and they are confronted with them, and they sit down for the first time in the chambers and take a look at the budget and they cannot simply arbitrarily decide that something that was begun by a previous Council-we're not going to go along with that, and chop it off. In other words, there are pressures that have an effect on the approach to financial planning and financial decision making which new Council members probably don't expect, but they have to deal with. So, coming back to your question about the Town's ( financial position, I would like to see the reserves built up. I would like to see the Council institute a 5 year financial plan. I think that's one of the major faults that I have found with the corporation's financial activities, is that we don't have a D.M: We have what's called a year financial plan. What type of plan do we have? T.D: 5 5 year Capital Works Forecast, and that's a deceptive term. A works forecast only deals with those programs involving the Public Works Departments. That is street repairs, construction, projected sewer installation, water line installations and so on. But a 5 year Capital Works Forecast, which is prepared every year by the way, is done for the purpose of submitting it to the Provincial Ministerial Authorities, and it's used to calculate the subsidies which we will receive from the province for whatever works we are involved in, or are now contemplating. What the program does not take into consideration is that every department is going to have certain needs, say in the next ( 5 years, and a prime example is the Fire Department. If a fire pumper, for example, goes out of service or has reached the end of it's useful life, to purchase (3) �another fire pumper, we're talking in the area of ( and to attempt to finance an 85 85 thousand dollars, thousand dollar expenditure in one year, in one current tax year, is a very very onerous thing to do. And of course the way you would normally deal with something like that, is you plan it out. When I am talking about a 5 year Capital Financial Plan, I'm talking about every department being charged with sitting down, taking a look over the next 5 years and recognizing a certain amount that's going to be guesswork, but that's what planning essentially is all about, it's informed guesswork. Each department would project what e quipment they are going to need, what services they feel they are going to re quire, and attempt to determine what year in the next five they're going to require that service or equipment, and from these projections, the Council would sit down and plan a capital budget. So for example, if the fire pumper was recognized by the Fire Department as re quiring replacement in the projected cost was 90 years, and thousand dollars, then the Council, in each current tax year up to that 3 from their current taxes, allocate ( 3 year period, would be able to, 30 thousand dollars per year to a reserve so that when the third year rolls around, the money is there to do the job. The first year that I was here, I was involved in a budgeting. I tabled a 5 year capital projection, a comprehensive projection, that is involving all the departments, with the Council, and it was the first stab at it, as far as I know. It didn't receive a great deal of attention. That was expected. Putting together a 5 year capital program is a difficult thing to do, and it requires a set of procedures which in the past, and I can only say I'm guessing, it just wasn't here, wasn't present. Now this year, a formal capital budget program again was not on the table, but I have advocated it each year I have been here, to the Council. Were I to stay, I would keep advocating it, in fact, in up to the 1986 1985, in the course of the year leading budget, I would be pushing it very hard with the department heads and with my approaches to Council to get an early start to a Capital Budget Program for 1986 and 5 years thereafter. So, that's a major fault that we have in Fort Erie, is that we don't have long term financial planning. We don't really have a handle on a cash ( budgeting program, that is to say, what uses are we going to make of cash that is incoming to the municipality? When we collect (4) �taxes on an interm tax installment time, what happens to that money? How much of it has to be spent to take care of current operations and current purchases, how much have we got left over that we ( can invest in short-term investments and make interest and so on. I'm certain that the Treasury Department is doing something along those lines. However, if they are, it's not generally known. I'm certain the Council has no idea whatsoever about how our cash is managed, and whether or not the management is effective and if we are getting the highest investors out of our avaliable cash resourses and so on. So, generally speaking, I don't think that we're in bad shape in relation ' to most other municipalities, but rather than simply being comparative to others, I'd like to see the municipality be better. D.M: Do you think Regional Government coming to Fort Erie in 1970 helped? T.D: Well, of course I wasn't here in 1970, so I can only give you my observations in retrospect. I think that it helped. If you take a look at the Provincial Government's whole purpose in creating Regional Government, and I don't profess to be an expert on the subject, but I would liken Regional Government in Niagara to the county system, which operated previously ( and which still operates, by the way, in western Ontario in some areas. Basically, a county or region is created to provide and pay for services which go beyond the boundaries of the area of the municipality. By area of municipality, I'm talking about a town like Fort Erie or a city like Niagara Falls. There are distances in between those municipalities that require roads and they require various other services. Police service, for example, is now in Niagara Regional hands, and again, not being totally familiar with all the reasoning behind the creation of the Regional Niagara, I am guessing that the county system wasn't working because there were just too many counties, and even between counties there were, and there are, as I said, in western Ontario, roads that run between various counties, and there are sometimes misunderstandings about where one county's border stops and the next one begins, and who is responsible for maintaining what and so on. So, I gather the province was simply trying to, through the creation of the Region, create a two tiered system of govern ment that was much more effective than the old county and municipal system. The only problem I see with the Regional system is that. . . now, let me use an example. Probably, like you (5) �some months ago, I read about the Regional Government agreeing to the provision of furniture in... I think it was the Regional Police ( Chief's office, and they were talking in terms of 16 thousand dollars. Now I'm giving you my personal opinion. I have a real problem with any government official, especially a non-elective official, spending 16 thousand dollars on office furniture. Now using that example, and a few others that I could bring up, but I won't bother bringing up the specifics, I think that... I have a real problem with understanding the priority system and understanding the attitude towards spending that I think I see at the Regional Government level. When municipalities like the Town of Fort Erie are striving to present our local residents with a tax increase of 3.2% which it is this year, generally speaking on the general level, and we watch the Regional Government come up with increases which I understand, this year, are quite in excess of what we are doing, and you take a look at some of the spending that's going on at the Regional level, and the projects that are being considered for financing by the Regional Government, I don't think that that's proper. And of course the Regional Government is separate from the electorate, at least the members are not directly elected ( to Regional Council, the chairman is not elected directly to his cahirmanship, rather the area municipalities provide the members of Regional Council by, I believe, primarily the heads of Council who are elected at the local level. For example, in Fort Erie here, our mayor is a member of the Regional Council. So I think it would be much more effective if there were direct elections to the Regional Council. It would be better countability to remove from the electorate, and there certainly aren't the kinds of active controls or pressures and influences that, for example, our Council is subjected to. D.M: Can you tell me what you realtionship is with the members of the Council? T.D: Okay, I have two relationships. One is with Council, the other is with the appointed staff of the Administration as I call it. The Council as a body, I am responsible to Council. I am appointed by Council, I can be fired by Council, I report to Council. Are you asking me about my relationship on a day to day basis kind of thing? D.M: No, operational. T.D: Well, I. .. let's see, theoretically, the Administrators job is to oversee the Administration, and t'm talking now about the appointed departments. .. (6) �department heads rather, and the staff. I say theoretically ... theoretically I have the authority to insure that working policies that are established ( by Council are followed through and adhered to by the staff. Theoretically, I have the authority to hire and fire the staff up to certain limits. For example, with deparment heads.. . by the way, I want to emphasise that I preferred this when I first came, not to have specific authority to fire department heads, but rather to recommend their dismissal if I thought it was warranted, or discipline or whatever. Theoretically my job is, as Administrator, is to recommend to the Council on virtually any aspect of the administration which I feel could be improved or to implement programs or structures, operations that we don't have just now that I think we should have, and do that by was of written report or with recommendations. The reason I used the term theoretically is because while. . . to a great extent, that's the way it works. Now, there is always the element of personal politics, and there's the element of plain old politics that enters into the picture and has to be taken into consideration. Especially in small municipal settings. I recall when I first became the Municipal Administrator, that was back in ( 1974, and I was handed a job description, and the job description said in essence, your'e the boss and what you say goes amongst the staff, and I took it literally. I waded into the situation and I tried to be careful mind you, but the municipality that I worked for was not too sophisticated in it's organization, and it had it's methods of doing things that were traditional and not necessarily based on good business decisions, and I rolled up my sleeves and went to work and began to change this and change that and before long I ran into what I would term personal reaction. I discovered and learned a very valuable lesson that in a municipal setting, while the boss may be the boss at the at the administrative level, staff members have influence, that is to say... especially long-term. People with 20-25 years of service in the municipality can sometimes become... take quite an exception to change. Very often they can feel threatened by it or they can view a new change in their methods as a commentary on what they have been doing and so on. And if they have been around for a long time, invariably they know people on Council and are friendly with them. You may be able to understand what I am getting at, is that personal influence is becoming intertwined with, in the course of making, what should (7) �be business decisions. And politics gets involved and so the waters get a bit muddy and often the old adage that the shortest distance ( between two points- your start point and your objective, is a straight line. In the municipal operation, is is very often that straight line comes back and curves and goes up and down and around to deal with the personal situations that one runs into. That applies to just about everything that happens in the Administration. Not just with staff members or dealing with the public. The Administrator or any department head or appointed official always has to be aware that while the rules may say you do it 1,2,3, you've always got to make certain that while you can't abandon the rules, you have to apply them with a good deal of common sense judgement in terms of dealing with the people. D.M: What do you think of the current municipal system, do you think it works well? T.D: D.M: Yes. T.D: ( In Fort Erie? Well, that's a difficult one to answer. The system works. We manage to get through day by day, year by year, but I understand that for years before my coming, the municipality was seriously understaffed. Attempts have been made in various ways to encourage successive Council's to increase the staff compliment. Since my arrival here in 1983 ... In fact, I did an exhaustive study, principally dealing with salary and wage levels and the administration, and in the course of that, took a look at comparable municipalities in terms of their compliment of staff. And to throw a statistic at you, the Town of Fort Erie came up approximately 33% below what it ought to be in terms of the number of staff that we should have to do the job as required in a municipality of this size. Now indeed the Council made some additions to the Engineering Department staff in 1983, but there are other areas of our organization which also need more people. For example, we don't have a Planning Department. Our Commissioner of Building and Planning is naturally a gentleman whose education and training are as a chief building and plumbing official with no planning credentials in the formal sense, but he's ( been charged with actually co-ordinating and supervising the planning activities of the corporation, with the assistance of a planning consultant we retain on the outside, and I must say he's done an admirable job. (8) �But a town of this size needs a proper Planning Department with a person in that department with formal credentials and training ( and so on in that discipline. I submitted a report to Council early in 1984 recommending the creation of a Planning Department, the hiring of a planner and so on. That report was not adopted. So what do I think about how the Administration works? I think under the circumstances, it works very well, but I have to underline under the circumstances. There's not enough time avaliable in a day to slow the system down to the point where you can do any planning. To plan an operation takes unusual exertions, it usually requires after hours work in order to be able to do it and so on, and even then, there's only so much you can do in a 24 hour day. The 'Town, apparently for some time, has operated on a crisis management basis. I'd say it's primarily because of the fact that we just don't have enough staff to spread around to do all the jobs that we should do, in a normal fashion. So, I think it's a crisis management organization, and because of that, based again primarily on the lack of staff, lack of properly trained staff in some instances, and a tradition within this municipality apparently, of avoiding the addition of ( new staff at all costs, because it's not publicly. . . it's just not a popular concept, I think that there are organizational deficiencies. I try to encourage Council to adopt a formal salary administration program. For example, salaries in the Town of Fort Erie are far below what they ought to be, and in private discussions with the Council as a group, and with individuals, not only myself but other appointed staff members, I've said to them-here's the statistics to show you what our counterparts make elsewhere. Although I could recommend to Council that one year decide that we're going to be a parody with, say, an average of municipalities of our size. There should be a competetive salary structure. I think the Town is in the position where, before too long, it could begin to lose good people, well qualified capable individuals, because they were attracted away by better circumstances of remuneration and reward for services that they did. And even within our own structure, forgetting about outside, within our own structure, the salary arrangements, the remuneration arrangements, are not equitable from one employee ( to the other. They are out of balance. So, if I were staying, I would ... in fact I am, today as we talk. . . I interrupted a report that I am (9) �doing to the Council in another attempt to encourage it to adopt a formal salary administration program which will provide not a ( leading set of salaries, in fact, some would be below average by a certain amount, but more importantly, they would line up our positions with the Town properly, in terms of rank, and I think that's an important element that needs correction in our municipality. D.M: Where are you in the rank of the Council? T.D: The Council, as a body, is above me. Immediately below them is myself, below myself are all the various department heads, and _ below them are all the. departments and their staff. D.M: Why are you leaving your job, have you found another job elsewhere? T.D: Well, the simple answer is yes, I've found another job elsewhere. I'm leaving the Town of Fort Erie because I feel that accepting a position in St. Catharines is a good career move for me, and basically that's about it. D.M: Why do you think Fort Erie isn't more of a productive, industrial town, considering it's location, should'nt it be a booming place like Niagara Falls? T.D: ( Yes, I understand the question. When I came to Fort Erie, of course I read all the material I could before I came, and constantly thrust at me as I read brochures and so on, was the fact that it was the principal gateway to Canada, for example, for car imports and exports, and with the brokerage houses that operate in Fort Erie, I expected to come down a find a booming industrial community, But, there are factors that do affect the lack of industry in Fort Erie. For example, Fort Erie as I understand it, essentially began as a bedroom community largely owned by American citizens, and that it was used more as a holiday community and so on. There are not only the American visitors and property owners I might say, but there is, I understand, a good segment of born and bred Fort Erians who simply don't want the character of the municipality to change. It may take a generation or two before that will change, in fact, I suppose it's beginning to change now. It has to be considered also that the Town of Fort Erie is at the tail end of the golden horseshoe and is in direct competition with places like St. Catharines, Niagara Falls and even as far away as Toronto for that matter. The proximity ( of Toronto to American Markets with it's airport and all the rest of it is really quite a competetive factor. So, I think the Town is ( 10) �going in the right direction with the appointment of the Economic Development officer, with closely zoned between the Town and the Chamber of Commerce, and I act as a member of the chamber directorate ( as an excecutive, and from what I've seen, the chamber is developing a very active and progressive attitude towards not just attracting industry, but going out and finding it, and once they've found it, getting right in the middle of the squabble with the competition and try to get them down. D.M: What happenes if somebody does come down here and want to start some type of industry, do we have the facilities avaliable for them? T.D: Well, the municipality has an industrial park. There aren't too many serviced lots left, but there are. . . it has an industrial park and it markets them through t the Chamber of Commerce to the Economic Development Officer. But aside from dealing with municipally owned property, and of course you are probably aware that the Town has recently bought approximately 50 acres of land out off the end of Gilmore Road, and that will be developed eventually. The plan for it's development isn't produced just yet, but we have the raw land there. Aside from marketing municipally owned land, our Chamber of Commerce, particularly the E. D. O. will devote her efforts equally to marketing privately owned industrial land. So, in terms of land, my understanding is that we have it here. That's not a problem. A service land plan is a bit of a problem, of course that's why you are now seeing the Town making gigantic efforts to get a sewer out Gilmore Road to open up a great amount of acreage out that way, with the terms being the 54 acre parcel I just referred to a few minutes ago that the Town bought. What happens when industry becomes avaliable. . . it could take many different routes. For example, some agents representing industries or businesses sometimes turn up here at the Town Hall, they don't know where to go. I recall a chap in England who was representing and industrialist who produced various types of machinery and he somehow ended up in the Treasurer's office one day not knowing what to do, so I went over there and met him and I brought him over to see the mayor, and there we got him together with the Economic Development Officer. That's the person we try to put everyone through. Mrs. Fran Brown has the facilities and the contacts and the experience to receive and properly deal with agents or business people. D.M: Thank-you very much for the interview Tom. T.D: You are most welcome, I have enjoyed it. (11) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Diana Matthews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Tom Derreck Location The location of the interview. Town Hall Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Derreck, Tom Description An account of the resource Provided here is Tom Derreck's interview. He discusses such topics as: Politics Government Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 2, 1985 1980s 1985 Fort Erie Oral history politics transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/5f8dece3329f79d9eb64332c03e5d2bb.pdf ad8e995fb5432d48873da7759225a4e5 PDF Text Text April 15/85- This is a interview by Michael Near with Ernest Benner at his home on the Bowen Road. ( . M.N: Mr. Benner where were you born ? E.B: I was born in the village of Bridgeburg. M.N: Thats now the north end of Fort Erie ? E.B: Now the north end of Fort Erie and our home-stead was on Dufferin Street were at present today is Dufferin Motors is our old home-stead; the old BellArd Theatre was across the road from us, which was run by the Ziff family, in them days it was silent pictures and Eda Ziff played the piano. M.N: Did your Dad come from Fort Erie ? E.B: Yes, my Father was born in Bridgeburg. Bridgeburg,not Fort Erie. :Hy Dad was born in Bridgeburg, he worked with my Grandfather Em Benner, teaming, digging cell¢ars. M.N: They were called teamsters ? E.B: Yes my Dad and Grand-dad and many more around Bridgeburg in those days did the big projects-the two big projects they did was dig the cellar for Pratt and Lambert Paint and Varnish Company ( up there on Mack St. and the Arner Company which used to be the old Jell-o Company were they made Jell-o and those cellars were all dug and scraped with horses. M.N: The horses were a lot more popular then ? E.B: Oh yes, there was lots of horses then in Bridgeburg them days, Charlie Vahaye had a horse, a promient family in Bridgeburg Dicky White was the butcher shop on Jarvis St. , he had a horse and a Democrat, he delivered grnceries with it and Harvey Con­ noly used to deliver groceries. M.N: Whats a Democrat ? E.B: A buggy like mine, a two seated buggy, down on Courtwright St. John Dustro had a grocery store he also delivered with a horse and Peanuts Benner drove the horse. M.N: Was that any relation to you ? E.B: Yes, first cousin. 1 �M.N: ( When did you first start at the Coal Company ? E.B: !started in the coal after school I suppose I'd be about 12 or 13 years old, come home from school and go down and bag coal. Thats the only job I ever worked at, !worked at Horton Steel for two months, other than that the only other job I had was at home. M.N: You delivered coal ? E.B: Yes, I delivered coal for years and years, with trucks after the horses went out. When the snow storm of 44, thats the winter Ellen was born, I delivered coal with the horses for two weeks In the winter of 38 I delivered milk for the Fort Erie Dairy in the winter time, I was on the farm and went and helped them out. M.N: Big change since you were a kid ? E.B: Ho ho theres more changes then you can believe, its pitiful the way Fort Erie is today. M.N: In what way ? E.B: Well number one Fort Eriewas a Rail Road town and when we was kids I could of got a job any place, there was all kinds of work in ( Fort Erie. It was a Rail Road town, you talk to your Dad, shovel ing snow in the winter on the Rail Road , you could get a job any place, now its all mechanized theres no work, look at your Rail Road, look at the section gang all �one by hand, now its machine. M.N: I would like to ask you some specifics. Do you remember Prohib­ ition ? E.B: No, not that much. M.N: Do you remember anything going on, at that time ? E.B: I remember when they was rum running at the foot of Dufferin St. there was boats coming in and out when I was a kid, at that time we didn't know any better kids would dive down arid get bottles of what ever it was, whiskey, wine, beer, I don't know what it was I was just a kid like little Mike. M.N: Was there a lot of guys involved..... E.B: Oh yes, there was a lot of guys involved in smuggling, this river was alive from here to Chipawa. ( M. N: Was there any bad incidents:-shoot outs ? E.B: Not that I recall. 2 �M.N: ( Okay will skip over to the Depression- hard times in the Fort Erie area ? E.B: Yes, it was hard times, I could tell you so much it would make your head spin. There was just no work, us kids in our family I went out to the farm to work with Uncle Orville Sherk, but half of Fort Erie caddied, do anything to get a dollar, kids would go to the Erie Downs Golf Course and caddy. In the Depressionit was just there was no work. Engineers, conductors, and brake­ men and so on the Rail Road lost there jobs. Old Pere Embry I'll never forget for one, he ended up as janitor at the High School, till this thing got over-Cecil Winimute-oh my Uncle Braun Parker and Avery and Eddie and all those guys do anything, this is when Grand-pa Benner had teams, teamsters you only got ¢50 a day. M.N: Was there any welfare or social assistance then ? E.B: Yes, what they would do in our case, being in the coal business if you had no money and no heat you went to the town hall. The town hall was run by two people, Bill Tate was the clerk and Doug ( Sage was his secratary and they did more then all they got down there �oday, I'll tell you. You would get a voucher for a ton of coal bring it over to my Dad or the office and they hang it on a hook. This was one of many, then every month my Dad would send the bill into the Town, and he would get his money for the coal, the town paid everything and the same with groceries, you got a voucher for groceries and you took it to Carrolls Store, Carrolls was on Jarvis St. then or the Dominion Store-this is the way they did it-but you worked for it, down there on the corner of- were Bill Fickels is to-day- I can remember as a kid going through there to the office and the works office was right along side of it, it was as big as this house here. That was the office and everything - Bert Sampson and Doug Finlason was town fore­ man, Roy Renshaw started just as a kid, sweeping and shoveling. M.N: What was the difference between Bridgeburg and Fort Erie ? E.B: Well Bridgeburg and Fort Erie had the same thing- Bridgeburg was in this end of town, Fort Erie was at the other end and I ( can't tell you much about the other end, I remember old Lou Douglas he was Reeve of the other end and old Bill Milton was fudge. Bill Holly- when they incorperated Bill Holly was mayor the best mayor Fort Erie ever had or Bridgeburg ever had. It was 3 �E.B: ( -tough, they bought your coal, they bought your food, they never see you g°. hungry and I remember going to school- if you broke . glasses, the kids didn't have no money, the Lions Club, they furnished glasses. M.N: When do you think they pulled out of the Depression ? E.B: I couldn't say Mike, they called it the dirty thirties, what was it 3 years, 4 years, I forget. M.N: Did the war help ? E.B: Well you see we were quite aways from the war, but we never went, when was the first time, I went, when was the first, I was· in the second draft. By that time things were booming, Fleet was going strong and they kept adding on to Fleet, -Redford Construction did a lot of work at Fleet, I mean Benner Coal Company in them days sold a pile of cement and everything else. Theres so many changes Mike. When everybody says you'd hate to go back to the old days- its brutal whats these kids going to do, this is what gets me, I mean everyone can't be a doctor or lawyer, what are they going to do? The computers ? In them days they plowed snow, ( my Dad and Grand-dad and everybody else down there, they plowed snow with horses on the sidewalk- your old man- they did this all winter long. M.N: Can you tell me about the ferry ? Do you remember if it operated in the winter time ? E.B: Yes, I think it did on decent days when there wasn't to much ice. I'll tell you who you want to talk to about that ferry- Scotty Miller, you know Yummy Miller- you ask Yummy Miller, he will refer you he lives right down there on Phips St.- his wife- Scotty worked on the ferry, to bad Pete Thompson wasn't here-Christ- Pete could tell you more- oh man- but there all gone now but I remember when young Scotty Miller worked on the ferry. And I know Sunday afternoons a bunch of us would walk up to the ferry dock, get the boat across, cost you a nickel to go over, we walked up ferry hill, it cost you a nickel to go to the Victoria show you got a bag of popcorn for a nickel-man! you had a field day for ( a quarter. M.N: What was the south-end like ? What was down there ? Just like it is to-day, I was never in the south-end really that much, Bill 4 �( E.B: _Holly was the main stay there, he had a hardware store, Frank Hapgood had the grocery store, Eddie Seaton had the brokers and insurance office. The train ran to Erie Beach from the ferry dock right straight through, that ferry would come over loaded with people, that was a big deal and those two hotels was there . M.N: Which hotels were those ? E.B: The Anglo-American, the Queens was run by the Hawkins family, the Queens Hotel was there- the King Edward but t�at was big business. . . M.N: What do you call that train that ran from .. ..? E.B: I couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was . telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope on that thing. M.N: ( What do you call that train that ran out from. E.B: I ... ? couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope on that thing. M.N: Were you ever out to Erie Beach when it was open ? E.B:: Oh yes, I was just a little kid . M.N: Was it nice ? E.B: Oh yes, it was really nice but as I say it was run and controlled by the Bardol family and they owned all that property, Harry Heatherton had a store there, oh yes, we did business with the Bardols for years. M.N: The Bardols had control of it - were they Canadians ? E.B: No they were Americans. M.N: What about Crystal Beach E.B: Well we never got out to Crystal Beach very much Mike, it was a long way up there but it was going strong but they both did good, evidently. That boat came from Buffalo. M.N: The Canadiana ? E.B: Yes, the Canadiana came from there done a big business. to Crystal Beach and they 5 �( E.B: If you could talk to some of the old custom officers down town if theres any old ones, like Pere Sexsmith is gone now and Johnny Rider, they all worked that boat. At Cry stal Beach they had the customs and immigration there. M.N: They had customs and immigration at Crystal Beach ? E.B: Oh yes, right at the Beach, they did it at the ferry dock too. Charlie Muir ran it down there. M.N: Do you remember anything about the building of the Peace Bridge ? E.B: Oh a little, lets see I was about 8 years old, I heard my Dad talk about it, they drawed cement in there they poured those piers and everything. The cement came in cloth bags, they dropped bag and all in, that was a big big deal for Fort Erie the Peace Bridge was, I was just a kid, I remember them building it. M.N: How many people were in that area of Bridgeburg, Fort Erie, and Amigari, roughly ? E.B: Maybe 3 to 4,000, I guess- like I told you get into those files down there, I wanted to go down there, Grand-Pa Benner was- served ( on council, I think it was 1890 just before 1900, you could get all that stuff, oodles of stuff. M:N: Were did you go to school in Fort Erie ? E.B: Phipp Street School . M.N: That was Bridgeburg ? E.B: That was Bridgeburg. M.N: Was that a big school ? E.B: Yes. M.N: Did it take in all that area of town ? E.B: Phipp St. went from Bowen Road in Fort Erie to Courtwright St. well then after a few years as the population grew, I remember my brother Zeke and Gordy, see we lived on the North side of Jarvis St. they had to go to Winimute School but I never did, I started at Phipp St.. M.N: What did you do as a kid ? E.B: Skating, hockey, playing ball, swim in that river. M.N: The river a lot cleaner then ? E.B: Oh yes, it was clean as a whip. M.N: Fish ? E.B: Lots of fish at the foot of Dufferin St., you see they had the air­ plane dock - sea-planes used to come in there. 6 �E.B: M.N: When did this airplane used to come in there ? E.B: ( An airplane dock just down from the gravel dock. Oh Christ, I don't know when- why they landed in there I don't know, but they did used to be sea-planes that came in there, you know pontoon planes, they land on the water, but there was all kinds of fishing in the water, lots of pike and bass in the spring of the year, you take in there under the Peace Bridge they used to call it the old mill race, all kinds of fish up there. M.N: Whats the old mill race ? E.B: That was the name of it, when they built the Bridge that done away with it, you know when you go under the Peace Bridge, well that was all water,, thats were we used to fish. M.N: That was natural ? E.B: That was natural then they put the bridge in. M.N: So when did the town start to grow ? E.B: Well you could definitly say in the war years, Fleet got going, Horton Steel, all them people worked around the clock. M.N: ( The Rail Road was going strong ? E.B: The Rail Road was going steady, they was hiring men like crazy -they couldn't get men. M.N: Do you think the schools were better then, when you were a kid ? E.B: I would say so- definitely, because you had the 3-r's rememberreading, writing, and arithmitic, look at it to-day you got these guys coming out of college and can't spell there own name bu� our set-up is altogether different, exaperience don't mean nothing you got to have that piece of paper, which is all wrong Mike, I mean I'm from a wealthy family and your from a poor family, your people can't put you through college and you come out with a piece of paper and you don't know nothing about nothing, I've worked at trucking and teaming and you name it, I got the exsper ence, but I'd be knocked out-mine you- look at the wages that's being paid to-day, I mean I started working down there shoveling coal, we got 20¢ a hour and you worked your way up. I got married in 1942 and I was making 25 $ a week, bought a house, a'fid all our furniture, we was doing fine on $25.00 a week, now that $25. 00 has to be $325.00 or you don't exist, I mean interest in those days was 3 or 4 %, look at what it is to-day 16-18. A pair of shoes, the best shoes I ever had - Sunny Shoes- I never paid more then $3.30 at Father and Son Shoes. 7 �M.N: ( Did you ever go to Buffalo and shop ? E.B: Oh yes, shopped in Buffalo all the time, we always bought are overhalls- all our winter clothes- Sears Roebuck was a wonderful big store- like in my days, the lower terrace they called it, thats were all the hardware stores, all the big ones. My Dad and Grand­ dad, in those days would go over and buy and what little duty you had to pay on it. M.N: A lot of people shopped over in ...... ? E.B: Oh yes, a lot of people shopped in Buffalo. M.N: In my research I've found an area called Victoria, down by the International Bridge, do you remember Victoria ? E.B:: No, but they tell me that Bridgeburg was called Victoria, you go ' · and search in that library. Bert Miller wa{) the old historian, he's got a daughter alive, Mrs. Mary Sauder, she lives down on the. Blvd. she did, whether she's got any of them old papers, there was a whole write up in the Fort Erie paper about 10 years ago all about Victoria and the name of Jarvis St.-its all in there. M.N: Do you remember when Jarvis Street had mud on it ? E.B: Yes, I remember when they paved Jarvis St., the only reason I re­ member, when they came to a drive way , were your drive way went in they poured concrete aprons you would call them we were just kids and the foreman gave us a nail, I'll never forget it, we put our names and date in the concrete. M.N: Do you remember the date of that ? E.B: No, I remember when they paved the streets in Fort Erie because Godson Construction Company from Toronto did all the work and my brother Howard he was water boy for the construction company all he did was carry a pail of water and give the labourers a drink. M.N: Do you remember any of the business down on Jarvis St? E.B: Oh Mike Purpura had the barber shop, he was a prominent barber, and you go down Jarvis St. there was - Briggs- the Briggs building old Mr. Briggs had a big business, I'll never forget out in front of his store, right on the sidewalk of Jarvis St. sat a gasoline pump one of those old hand pumpers, they had the glass thing and they held 10 gallons, and gasoline in them days was about 20-22 cents · a gallon and you go down from-Briggs had the paint, wallpaper, fishing tackle, bycycles, he had everything, he did a big business. Next to Briggs was Patton and Dotty it was a clothing store in Fort Erie.. 8 �E.B: ( Then you went down and the Superior Store and the Dominion Store. Frank Willik had a butcher shop there-Mitch had a hardware store there, Tommy Holbick worked in the hardware store and Hecknians Barber Shop was there and La Hays grocery store was there- and Ernie and Alice Mitchels Barber Shop was there, Dicky White's Butcher Shop, thats before they built the A&P, Paul Pong had a laundry in there, Everts had the Dairy, Magdallena Moringstar had the Fort Erie Photo Studio, Robins had a Shoe Store there, Lonsbury had the frug Store, Kieth Butler had the Barber Shop, Ziggy Klien had the Pool Room, Charters Bakery was down in there to, the Bank of Montreal was in there- I remember when they built the Bank of Montreal on the south si.de of Jarvis St. they had the cops, a big to do, they took the vault and the money from one side of the street to the other. M.N: Who was the cop then ? Andy Griffiths ? E.B: I remember Andy and Chirp, Walter Kitt was a cop, but before Andy Griffiths - ain't that a bugger- I'm slipping, he lived up in the Barney Long house on Dufferin St., Hyat was his name, some such thing as that- he was a cop. Well then down on Jarvis St. ther was a Chinese Resturant it had a big rooster out in front with lights on, it just looked as if its head was going all the time and Eddie Johnson had the R•eview Paper, which hired a lot of people, old John Atwood had the Atwoods Store down there, he was Reeve of the town, he was the under­ ta,ker, he was the furniture maker, he had her. The old Post Office stood there- old Billy Hogg ? - Billy Braum ? - your going a long way back- and Gord Roberts had the eye-Rungs Garage was in the back and there was the Superior Store and the Royal Bank old G.R. Steele ran the Royal Bank. There was 2 or 3 stores up in there but I forget who was all there. I remember Tom Nags had the Barber Shop up on the top end of Jarvis St., he had a big wooden veranda wooden side-walk, people would go there and sit- my Dad went to the barber shop every Saturday with out fail, thats were the old timers met and shot the breeze. M.N: This was right in Bridgeburg ? E.B: Right down at Heckmans Barber Shop- my Dad- Angus brothers they had Angus Groceries on Central Ave., Bill Hana, Bill Cavana Doc Streets and Doc Mitchell. 9 �E�B: Bill Heckman would never get home Saturday night, they didn't close up to 12:30-1:00 oclock, shooting the breeze down there ( oh that was a big due. M.N: Did you used to go to dances ? E.B: Oh yes, we used to have beautiful dances down there, all kinds of dances. M.N: What kind of music ? E.B: Different people would play, no such thing as juke boxes then, you had someone on the violin, the guitar, the piano. M.N: All people from town ? E.B: Oh yes, lots of Waltzes, you know, square dancing was big but I· remember - must have been the Rebecas it was the ladies organization of the Odd Fellows, they would hold dances and my Mother was on the lunch commitee, I remember us kids would go upstairs, with cakes- we had a great time. M.N: Was there a lot more lodges then- mens clubs ? E.B: Well not more, there was the Masonic Lodge, the Odd Fellows, the Orange Lodge- that I remember the Kinsmen Club, the Lions Club, the Junior Chamber of Commerce which was really going strong then, Dutch Jackson was president, I used to go down to it. But them was all good organizations and they did a lot of good for old Bridgeburg, I'll tell you. M.N: What did they do ? ' E.B: Helping people out, you know. M.N: Did they build a lot of stuff, or just donate money ? , E.B: They did a lot of donations, helping out, the Kinsmen Club for instance years ago- maybe in the forties, they supplied all the hockey, they had kids playing like they do now, from six or seven years old and up and they footed the bill for it, the Kinsmen Club they bought those kids everything, they did really good. M.N: You mentioned hockey, the Fort Erie arena during the great snow storm collapsed, that was 37 or 39 ' was that as bad as the snow storm of 1977 ? E.B: M.N: ( Oh I would say yes, did the 77 take much down ? I think it caused a fair amount of damage . E.B: The arena was the big damage in Fort Erie at the time, but they never had the equipment like they do now- snow plows- I remember Bill Renshaw drove the army truck, as long as you didn't break down you was fine. 10 �E.B: But you take like us guys drawing coal, or milk with the horses when the teaming was going, you had good slieghing all winter long, now ··with the salt and calcium you couldn't sliegh if you had to. M.N: You think the team was better for that type of weather? Slower ? E.B: Oh yes, you where a lot slower, but you were tuned to the times. To-day its hurry hurry, just look at me this morning with the team I could of did that in 2 hours but I was all morning with the team. Working men took a lot of pride in there work but not to-day, to­ day its production, hurry up. M.N: You think things were a lot more quality then ? E.B: Yes sir. M.N: When did you notice the difference when coal shifted over to elec­ tricy and gas ? E.B: Oh I would guess about 45 to 50 some where in there, gas $tarted to come in strong then and then they pushed oil but oil never got the foot hold that gas did but it was a lot more money but people was tired of carrying ashes evidently, the cheapest coal we sold was $12.00 a ton that was for number 1 hard coal. M.N: How long would a ton of coal last? E.B: A ton of coal would run a normal house a month, 30 days, give or take, how much you had cold weather and wind, but once the people got the gas, and wages started going up why everybody went to it, the coal business went right down ...... . M.N: Where did you get your coal ? E.B: Our coal came from Scranton, Pennslvania. M.N: That would be brought in by train ? E.B: Oh yes, we shipped everything by rail, we used to ship stoker coal stoker coal was promient then, the hospital, the green houses, the bigger stores well then Archie MacGlas1'on he started- down there on the foot of Jarvis Street we called it the gravel dock, they shipped gravel, pea gravel, why as kids for sling shots they were dandy, and then they - during the war they shipped in scrap cars in there, you don't remember that, they unloaded scrap there..... M.N: What did they do with the scrap ? E.B: Shipped it to Hamilton I guess. Well then Archie went into the coal business, he went into the stoker business, why he took all the stoker business in Fort Erie we couldn't compete with water rates. 11 �E.B: I with rail rates so Archie had a good stoker business, he had -he sold stokers, and seviced stokers, we was the best of friends mind ( you, we was in competition, but good competition. M.N: Whats a stoker ? E.B: Well a stoker was a hopper thing, it would hold 5 or 6 hundred pounds of coal and it would last a day or two, you didn't have to attend to it every day. M.N: Who was the first mayor you ever remember ? E.B: The first mayor I ever remember was old Mr. Hall, Jim Hall's f ather, ther was him as I remember Bill Atwood was reeve and Al Kirk was deputy reeve what ever they called them and now I 've for-· gotten who followed down the years who followed Hall there was - I remember - Charlie Price was mayor, Finn Rapochy was mayor, Holly from the south end he was mayor, Herb Guess was inay�r. M.N: E.B: Oh I guess the majority of them were conservative. M.N: Fort Erie has always been a conservative town hasn't it ? E.B: ( Most of these guys conservative ? Yes. M.N: Did any of them go on to bigger politics? E.B: Well I don;t think so, well Jack Teal was mayor for 13 years, I think Gerv Fretz was the only one that went on to...... but election night in Bridgeburg was one of the big nights of the year, I'm tell­ ing you, there was more hustle bussel, hustling votes up you know but I remember as a kid, we used to go down to that town hall at night, when the polls closed at night- 8: o'clock or what ever time well by 9 or 9:30 we would have a new mayor and Jack Baker had the corner store over there, papers and candy, well when you got the new mayor no matter who it was took us kids over to Bakers and bought us all candy that was a big big night, thats why you never forgot those politicians. M.N: The politicans were more out for the people then ? E.B: Oh yes, but I think on the overall old Bridgeburg was a pretty good spot to live in, you know we were right in that neck of the woods you couldn't go any farther because of the river, there was a lot of commuting back and forth to Buffalo and I know from being ( in business you take the same business in Bridgeburg or Fort Erie now and the same business in Toronto, the one in Toronto will do a lot better, the transport has to come another hundred miles, were right in the neck, you look at the map. 12 �M.N: ( There was a lot of hotels down on Courtwright St. do you remem ber any of those ? E.B: Well, yes I remember the BanlE.a House, I remember the BarN�a House when Bob Beatty run it, thats a long long time ago and we sold those people coal and that piano we got I bought the piano out of the Bar"ll�-a House, Bob Beatty piano went to George Seback and his kids took lessons on it and when they was done I bought it from short and now Lois has it and my grandson is taking lessons on it and thats out of the Ban-i e.a Hous�. now the old bucket of blood up the street I remember it was Mervison Hotel I guess and I remember when it was Waters Livery Stable everybody that came to town- you'd ta)_{e your horse and buggy over there and they feed it and put it in the barn just like you see in the movies" ll.N: When did it change over to a hotel ? E.B: Well it was always a hotel and livery stable. M.N: It was combined type thing ? E.B: Yes, I remember old Mr. Carmichael lived out here at the subway and he drove a little horse and buggy to work every day, he was ( caretaker at the station down there. M.N: The rail road station ? E.B: Yes, and he kept his horse in Waters Livery Stable. M.N: Was the bucket always a tough place? E.B: The bucket was never a tough place, every one thought it was tough, old Matt Compton said to the gang that came in there that there dollar was just as good as the other ones, you went there and had a gooc;l time and everybody knew everybody, and no one got into trouble, you take Jack Fordham and Red Anger when those guys were in there hey day, it was a lot of laughs I'll tell you. M.N: Where they locals ? E.B: Oh they were locals and tougher then whalebone . M.N: Where did they work ? E.B: Red Anger was the black-smith around town, he was on the race­ track- he was one of the best, Jack Fordham was a engineer on the Rail Road well when they got into the sauce they were just like a couple of bulls, I remember one time, our office was just across the street we come down there and cut through the bank, well Red Anger and Fordham are in there all loaded up they picked up a Quebec heater up-it was a thing about so high- they picked it up and carried it outside and put it on the sidewalk. 13 �E.B: ( Old Matt Compton was pulling his hair out. M.N: Matt Compton got around quite a bit in town ? E.B: Matt ian the hotel, Matt and Mary Compton, Sunday was the busy day. Jack Fordham got drunk one time and Matt had a little safe every body had these little home safes, and he got up stairs, some how, and he picked that safe up and carried it out on the verandah and he dropped it over the end well they called the police and Chirp went down, heres Jack down on the lawn - and he says what are you doing Jack- he says I'm just trying to get W.G.R. Chirp Mathhews is another one to talk to he can tell you more about it. You talk to Chirp or Gutsty Purpura theres not many of the old ones left, they 'll fix you up. M.N: When did you notice that the town really became a town ? E.B: You see I was born and raised here and it made a difference when you grew up with the town and every body knew every body. I remember when the Fleet started I don't know I suppose it was Jack Anderson who started the Fleet - I remember Oscar John­ son, P. W. Johnson pumped gas for Gramel they had a Gulf station at the foot of Courtwright Street and Pee Wee quit and went to work at the Fleet, he work up there 6 months and then get laid off, he took up sign painting and he did good, but this is what a lot of them did when they started out there, wll once it started to roll those people had a really good job, look at your uncle Al Ried, there all pensioned off now and I think is one of the best places in Fort Erie to work maybe in the country, I don't know, they got all the benifits. and there busy, there trying to keep it going. M.N: Was there industries back then that are not now? E.B: Oh, a lot of small industries that folded up and got out. M.N: Nothing of any size ? E.B: Well you take the Mentholatum was big in those days, its closed, the Jell-o Company was big, big big business, I remember when they drawed Jell-o - Ernie Young drove a model T truck, drawed Jell-o up to the Rail Road, they shipped it in cars, and there was the Markel Electricon Lewis St. well when the Jell-o went out the Arner went in, do you remember ? And they hired a lot of people, they did a -pill factory you know but then it folded up and thats all apartments. 14 �M.N: ( Big difference in the Rail Road ? E.B: Oh, there is no Rail Road, the New York Central is gone, there was-the round house up on the top end of Jarvis, she's gone, Orly Johnson was a hogger there, and old Mr. Galvirth lived next to us, Grandpa Hewell, and Alvin Benner, Ross Brown and all they did was get engines ready, they had a turn table there, you could go and watch the engines �urn around and thats all gone. ... well your Dad and Bobby Long, Frenchy-you know all them guys is done-I don't know what the Rail Road is doing, but it sure slipped but you stop and think and talk Rail Road why pay rail rates to ship it into Fort Erie and then you got to unload, say a car of sa.nd or coal or what ever it is, now a big truck can bring it right up to your door. M.N: Did any one ever think that Fort Erie would expand as much �s it has ? E.B: I often think if my Grandpa Benner could see that Central Ave. Bridge, see everybody had to go around underneath the Internation al Bridge that was a busy place evert thing was coming or going ( you went to the south end of town you had to go the boulevard I often say if Grandpa Benner could see that bridge, man oh man wouldn't that have saved a lot of steps. M.N: Do you think the town has grown for the better E.B: Oh yes, its grown for the better, better in a lot of ways. M.N: What do you think about this Regional Government ? E.B: Its the worst thing thats happened to anybody, you got no control over nothing, I mean before we had a mayor - were talking Bridgeburg now, you had the mayor and council, out here we had Bertie Town -ship as we was know and you name it we had Fred House, we had Bruce Finch, we had Orn Teal, we had some awfuly good men out -here and they run the Township and evry thing went along fine, and now your in regional- who do you talk to ? You got a regional council, you got a chairman everything is in the Welland area, I mean right here you could do this and do that, regional council is the worst thing that could happen, I said this right from the drop of the hat. M.N: Do you think its the loss of the personal contact? E.B: Oh it definitly is, definitly, I mean take for instance you, you want ed a drain cleaned out or some thing, you called the town ship office in Ridgeway, 15 �E.B: ( -and either you went up town and they were out they stop by and have a visit for 10 or 15 minutes, say what do you want and they fix it, .or this week or next they send some one out, you can't do that now, the thing is so big who do you talk to and all they do is pass the buck, pass the buck. M.N: So the local service was a lot better then? E.B: Local service was 10 times better than what we got to-day M.N: And not as large ? M.N Who do you think was the best mayor in town ? E.B: I don't know, !mean when you go back, I guess Bill Holley was one of your better mayors this is years ago, coming up to date your · present mayors I would say Jack Teal was one of your better mayors he must of been, the man held office for 10or·15 years, I don't know how long. \ 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Crystal Beach Subject The topic of the resource Crystal Beach, Ontario Description An account of the resource Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL -LH - Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Michael Near Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ernest Benner Location The location of the interview. Mr. Benner's home on Bowen Road. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Benner, Ernest Description An account of the resource Provided here is Ernest Benner's interview. He discusses such topics as: Bridgeburg Transportation Railroad The Depression Hotels and Taverns Crystal Beach Amusement Park Erie Beach Peace Bridge Schools Buffalo Stores and businesses Recreation Politics The Barnea Fleet Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 1985 1980s 1985 Barnea Bridgeburg Buffalo Crystal Beach amusement park Erie Beach Fleet Great Depression hotels and taverns Oral history peace bridge politics railroad recreation schools stores and businesses transcripts transportation http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/8c4c3f2525839b47fa43d3cc821a06ca.jpeg fdc21895aa54df992618d880fbe12c6a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Politicians Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 16, 1979 1970s Fort Erie Fort Erie Times politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/e10c8f5b1c17b085d6a8259fe3b26da9.jpg ee293d8fd4ce1351c07403c487a6cf04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Liberal Party Victory Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Times 1970s Fort Erie Fort Erie Times politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/9c99030b813a291bf109508e1be45189.jpg e4661e4e232a7434af7e885ab5046df0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Official Opening of LIberal Party Headquarters Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 25,1979 Description An account of the resource Erie Riding's Liberal headquarters for the federal election are opened in the County Fair Mall. Pierre Lafontaine, Denise Lafontaine and Mary Renshaw are pictured. 1970s Fort Erie Fort Erie Times mary renshaw pierre lafontaine politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/bfacd8b4b2f137130f5a4bb6c6e85737.jpeg 0751d83aa877e268d957723137f3fdbc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Elected NDP Candidate Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 20, 1979 Description An account of the resource Clarence Gibson, right, was chosen as Erie Riding NDP candidate at a nomination night. Left of him are Frank DeRuyte and David Cooke. 1970s Fort Erie Fort Erie Times ndp politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/12324766be6cf020ed890f4005734b35.jpg 97ee55cf87747112497c0e63853fc6b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bill and father Girve Fretz busy at work Subject The topic of the resource Girve Fretz, former Fort Erie mayor Description An account of the resource A photo accompanying an article updating outgoing mayor Girve Fretz and his future plans Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived LH Photograph Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Fort Erie Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 24, 1979 politics http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/dbc38177d79c00c90cc698e99b5397d2.jpeg e1314628a8fab2075d9241ae2f048d0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Images, documents, and other items of historical significance to the town of Fort Erie. Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Still Image A static visual representation. Examples of still images are: paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type "text" to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Erie Riding Liberals Choose Executive Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 15, 1978 1970s Fort Erie Fort Erie Times politics