1 12 90 http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/38e236cff04fa3a390ac6f3dfdbd725f.pdf 30454e8bde36e63b990af535d63386f3 PDF Text Text ( This is Neil Flindall in the apartment of Pauline Cheffin in the Albany Apartment Building, and it's June Seventeenth; Nineteen Eighty-Five. N.F: What is your full name? P .C: My name is Pauline Cheffins, I was born Pauline Barnhardt, and I was married a second time . . .a first time, my name was Heckman and now my name is Cheffins. N.F: And you were born in Fort Erie? P.C: Yes, I was born on Queen Street and when I was nine months old we moved to Walnut Street, and the houses were all moved before ' the Bridge was built, and I can remember going down Queen Street, and our house . . . we lived in it...and we came home from school and we couldn't find the house...and it was down the 'baby hole', we spent the night there, and then they moved it on to . . . N.F: You were still living there when they moved the house? P.C: Yes, yes, in the evening the whole thing was moving . . . and then that's the first house on Princess Street. N.F: P.C: Behind the Bank of Commerce. N.F: Who were your neighbours there, on Walnut Street? P.C: ( Is that right the first house on Princess Street there. Mr. and Mrs. Mann, Richard and Dorthea; Mr. and Mrs. Wilbur; Steimans; McGlauchlands, and then there was Naylors, and Vales, and Kerricks; that's all the way down the street, and then across the street were Uncles, family most of them. N.F: When everything was moved, did it stay within the area. or did it move out of the area? P.C: No, most of them moved in their houses I think some of them moved out, but most just stayed. Yes some houses were moved just on Walnut Street, and then years later they went up the hill. N.F: That's amazing. P .C: Isn't that something. But we saw the Peace Bridge built and it was a big day when it was opened. N.F: P.C: ( It was a big ceremony? Yes, oh yes, the Prince of Wales was here, all the big dignitaries and stuff. There was pictures of us sitting along, watching it. N.F: What school did you attend? 1 �( P .C: I went to one over on Bertie Street. when we just started school. and one on the alley. John's Street. there was a building there we went ...there was no kindergarden. I didn't start to school till I was seven years old...and I went to Douglas School. and from there I went to High School. N.F: Would that be when Douglas was first opened? P.C: No it was opened in the eighteen-somethings. I think. N.F: The school behind Princess Street there. was there a name for that. do you remember a name on it? P.C: I don't think so. not that I can remember. no I don't think...it was just like a building. we just went to school there. And then there was one on Bertie Street. over there where the Legion Hall was later. and the library at one time. But it was. you know...all the streets were dirt roads. you know. and stuff like that. and we always would you know. if you had a birthday in winter time. you always had a...there was always snow. and they never carried the snow away. we had snow all winter. and really snow. they don't know ( what it is like now. N.F: It has changed. P.C: Oh. yes we really had a lot of snow. but we used to have ah...milk brought around in a milk wagon you know. we used to have to go out with a pitcher for the milk. it wasn't always clean. N.F: Maybe it's not now. P.C: Outside toilets of course. we all had outside toilets. knocked them down on Halloween. N.F: Did you keep chickens? P.C: Oh. yes we had a lot of chickens. N.F: Wasn't that really common then? P.C: Oh. yes. well my Dad had a lot. but I mean everybody didn't have them. but we had a great big garden...you had to. And that's how Doctor Douglas got paid. with a couple of chickens and some vegetables. he never got any money from us. it was all from the Americans; up here around Waverly Beach. and Erie Beach. N.F: ( He was a very good Doctor I hear. P.C: Oh. yes he was a good Doctor. I can remember him you know. well 2 �( I was about twelve or thirteen when he died . . .maybe he died later, you know, but he brought us all into the world. . .and never got paid for it. NoF: PoC: His office was in the South End; his home was his office. Yes, a beautiful white home on the corner of ... where the Bank of Montreal is now, Bertie and Niagara Boulevard. There it had a white picket fence. NoF: P oC: And there was no hospital? No, no, the hospital was built around n ineteen thirty-two I think, my nephew was one of the first hundred that was born there. NoF: Oh, really. What would you do if you needed an operation, or a bone set? P oC: Well they had to go to Niagara Falls, because the one time we had a big accident, with our Sunday School Picnic . . .a truck turned over and they thought my arm was broken, but they just kept me home for about ten days. NoF: ( PoC: Was it a 'hay-ride'? No it was two trucks, and my uncle went to pass the other truck, and caught the wheels...and my mother was pregnant with my sister, and the thing went over and she went right over the back as there was three of us kids in there. NoF: PoC: NoF: PoC: Everything turned out all right? Oh yes,it was fine. How about businesses in the South End? Well, W. J. Hawley had a store ...my father worked in there; and Frank Cole had a butcher shop; and ah, there wasn't too many I don't think . . . and the King Edward Hotel was there, and the Anglo American, and the King Edward was quite a popular hotel then and the people would come over on the ferry you see ... and there was no Peace Bridge at that time, and that's where they stayed, it was a real popular hotel then. It has deteriorated but it was a real nice hotel. And Hunts had the Anglo American and then there was the Queens Hotel, of course that was a coach stop at one time, you see, it was old. I can remember that when it was a private home ( Coyne's lived in there, see she was a Hawkins and they owned all 3 �that property around that corner. .. and Jessie Coyne lived in there ( and her son had a birthday party there, and it was just a private home then. And that's like where the Erie Lane is now, you know Grammy's, is a ...was a private home, Roses lived in there, yes Arthur Rose and his family, and that was a private home at one time. Every­ thing has changed. N.F: Did you ride the 'ferry'? P .C: Oh yes, many times, yes. N.F: P.C: It was well run? Oh, yes but when the ice was running you know, why it took it right down to the International Bridge one time. . .took the top off the boat. Yes they were lucky they could catch it in those days. Oh, we used to have ice across that river, it was frozen solid some times. N.F: P.C: N.F: P.C: Without the ice boom. Oh yes, the ice boom was another thing. Did you go to Erie Beach? Yes, many many, times . First of all there was always farmer's picnic and my mother and dad are both Pennsylvania Dutch, and we went ( and met all our farmer relatives, you know that we never saw any other time. And my brother used to work on the ponies ...and one of them knocked him out one time. My sister used to work where the soft ice cream was . . . at that time it was really something, oh yes those were beautiful days. We used to go swimming and that was the largest outdoor swimming pool in the world. That was at the end up there on the one side by Waverly Beach. And then I had beautiful pictures of my Mother. . . my sister has them in California, taken at the old ...used to be a hotel there, and they were really bathing beauties, when she was young, my mother just died last year at ninetY-SiX, you see, so that would be eighty years ago now, but oh those were good times, we used to go up on the. . . if we had a birthday party we'd go as far as the Old Fort on the ferry, on the train rather, we'd get off at the Old Fort you know ...it was really something. N.F: ( P.C: What was it like inside? At Erie Beach very,well I suppose to us it was beautiful, they had 4 �a stadium there, I can remember running and getting a gold medal ( for . . . they had track meets, and ah, it was ah, oh I can remember they had a horse there jumped in the water... it's nothing now . . . but It was certainly something then you know, it was a beautiful. ..it 'was a shame about it. But then Crystal Beach opened up then . . . everybody got cars. That was something I think when the Peace Bridge came and the cars, then the people didn't use the boats . . . the boats used to run all the time ...oh and that was beautiful that dock that was out there. And that ballroom, you know was just that dancehall was beautiful. It really was. And they had the lockers downstairs where you changed your for water and everything. N.F: P.C: N.F: P.C: Lots of dancing there too. Yes, Crystal Beach got it all. ..it was a shame really. Did you go to Crystal Beach also? No . . .there wasn't too much there when...1 don't remember too much of it at all. I don't think they had any rides, I think they had most of the rides at Erie Beach you see, they bought that. ( (At Erie Beach did they have special events) P.C: Well they had .. ,! can't remember too many of them, but I mean every week they had something different, and it was special. . .1 can't as I say about Crystal Beach, because no one ever went to Crystal Beach that I know of unless to swim. (Erie Beach) had 'bump the bumps' I can remember going there for the day one time and the police were looking all over for us,two girls, because they saw us and we were out there before school started, and then when we were in school you know, we could hear the train coming up, you know we all knew the beach was going to open. . .that was really something. But it was really, you could go there and everything was so different and safe ...and they had a big zoo .. .! can remember the camels, camels you know, they didn't smell so good...but they had peacocks, you know, we'd never seen anything like that before you see. I had my picture taken at Crystal Beach sitting on a zebra, or Erie Beach rather. August the First they celebrated, you see, they didn't celebrate July the First at that time, and the Fourth { of July of course, that's my birthday ... but we always celebrated 5 �( because we were so close to the Americans . . .but there was no First of July then, August the First we celebrated . . .that was like . . . a Civic Holiday now, but it was always 'Farmer's Picnic' then,that's what It was then. N.F: What do you remember about the building of the Peace Bridge? Any incidents that happened? poe: Oh I remember there was a mill race and then of course they built that up and then they built the peirs, and then ... what changed all our lives you know that lived around there or anything . . . it took about two years to build,I can remember that . . . anyway there was a lot of ,they had houses for the men that worked on there. Oh yes and then they ripped those down years later . . . 1ike where they had to feed the men ami everything, see it was a big project . . . especlally with the river going so fast . . . you know,it was really a . . .something. I can remember the day it opened August the twelth I think, nineteen twenty-seven, and it was really,you know,beautlfu!.. .they had the Prince of Wales here and I think his brother George if I remember ( right,and they were entertained royally,and then we had a big 'Street Dance',and my sister won seven dollars doing the Charleston, that was something for us. Then I remember there used to be a place they called it the 'Barn',right on the corner Garrison and Goderich Street, there and I can remember watching them when I was too young to go in and they used to have dances and everything . NoF: poe: That was an American who owned that? Was it,yes, I couldn't remember who owned it but I can remember my sister was old enough to go and we used to go and watch. NoF: poe: That was really popular. Yes it was very popular, yes. But when I can remember before the Peace Bridge was there we used to have peonies in our garden, and people used to have to line up . . . they wouldn't go home till two, three, four o'clock in the morning coming down from Crystal Beach . . . now there were people coming from Crystal Beach then . . . and we used to sell them peonies . . . every time a boat went through there was a whole new load there along the road ... we didn't have much money ( in those days. I can't tell you too much about the Bridge and that 6 �( it certainly made a big difference in this town . N.F: P.C: A lot of jobs? Oh,yes,Customs and Immigration . . .and the maintainence men and stuff like that,you know it was really something. N.F: P.C: Did you do much shopping in Bridgeburg? Did l. ..at that time ... no I don't think sO ... we had a shoe store here, you know,and stuff like that. See there was never any way to get there, you know what I mean,and the people in Bridgeburg used to go over on a 'dummy' like to the American side, but 1 can remember my mother and father going over all the way down ...they used to go over once in a while to a dance apparently,and we'd have a baby sitter, and they'd bring ice cream back in the snow in the middle of winter ...and they would come across the International Bridge, and then walk from Bridgeburg up . . .there were no taxi or anything, and they would walk that distance just to dance and stuff.:;get home about two o'clock in the mornlng . . .make us all a bowl of ice cream;:. isn't that something? ( N.F: What a difference . What would you do for entertainment, besides like Erie Beach, on a weekend? P.C: Well,1 went swimming when 1 was younger, but there was no entertainment no shows, there was a theatre at the North End as 1 got older, but to go down ...we had to walk you see,a long way down to Dufferin Street . . .back again, if we had the fifteen cents,but ah, that's what it was, but there were no shows at the Fort Erie South End,and there was Scotty Miller's old store where you could go and get an ice cream, and there was the 'baby hole', but there was no entertainment really...1 don't even think there were band concerts at that time, that 1 rememberthere was just...as 1 say we used to go swimming but that was about all...we'd go to the Old Fort for picnics, you see,church picnics, yes. Ih, the church used to have it down at Queen Victoria Park until we had that accident, then they cut that out; N.F: There was just no entertainment. Who is the first representative of the Town that you remember, a Reeve or Mayor? ( P.C: 1 would say Lou Douglas, 1 think,1 know he was like the Reeve,and 7 �( he's the first one that I reme mber. NoF: But that would be Fort Erie South? PoC: Yes, Fort Erie South. NoF: PoC: Do you reme mber the A malgamation? Yes, yes, I lived on, I had moved to the North End then, and I lived on Dufferin Street, that was nineteen thirty I think, wasn't it, I was fifteen years old, and I can reme mber that.. .! think it was a good thing. I wish now that the whole town was one whole town instead of Ridgeway and Stevensville, people still think it's Fort Erie North and South.. obut I don't think it ever will be. NoF: PoC: No I don't think so either. Well you know just like Toronto and those places, they still have Etobicoke and all those places that are part of Toronto I guess. There was different people. NoF: PoC: Yes. Different, you know,I went to Queen Street United Church and stuff like that...we used to have picnics you know, in the summer ( and stuff like that and sales and all that stuff,then I went to the North End and went to High School, played basketball...everything I could play. NoF: PoC: That's the same High School we have now? Yes, because there was one...that was new then because my first husband Harold Heckman he had gone to the other one, and my sister there was...up on Wintermute, you see there was a High School there before this one was opened. Yes where it used to be ...then it was Winter mute Public School,but at first it was a High School and that's where it was and then by the time I got to High School it had just changed... maybe it was the A malgamation Year I don't know, what year it changed. NoF: Did they have a 'ceremony' for the A malga mation, and the new Mayor? PoC: Yes but I can't reme mber.. .! can't tell you who the Mayor was...of A malgamation. It was a big event,there was a lot that didn't want it. NoF: That was depression years at that time; did that really have an 8 �( effect on th� area? P.C: Oh,yes... I think the South End we just never had too much activity or too many jobs and stuff like that anyway. My father worked at Pratt and Lambert, at one time but he used to ...he was unemployed a lot he used to fish, you know, ice fish things like that but he never he was a painter he was a real good painter, and you know that was just partial jobs like, my father used to say 'lots of them paint every year instead of house cleaning'. N.F: P.C: N.F: P.C: Do you remember the prohibition years? Yes. And rum running? Oh my goodness yes, and then in later years .!heard my dad used to run cheese over there. Oh, yes. Yes I can remember hearing about the rum runners and how they used to bring the Chinese over in bags, you know, and if the Coast Guard came along they'd drown them you know...just threw them over the side. N.F: ( P.C: Which direction were they going? Well they' used to be up around towards Erie Beach there,I can remember where some of them used to live ...and take them over and it was above the Fort a lot of them, they used to take them over see because of the current...and then the boats would go down you see and land over there in Buffalo someplace... because apparently the Chinese weren't let Into the States that much,they came Into Canada you know to build that railroad out west ... and that's when the Chinese wanted to get over the border you see. They said there used to be guns and shooting and stuff like that...and it was really something. N.F: Would it seem like it was organized,or was it jusr people doing It on their own? P.C: Oh it must have been organized, to a certain extent for them to know where to take the Chinese ...and to let them off...and for some­ one to pick them up,you know,but then,the Coast Guard was on to them too, you know and I mean the rum runners too they used to run. N.F: ( P.C: There was a lot of rum running out of Fort Erie? Oh yes, yes, yes. 9 �{ N.F: p.e: Any individuals or just anyone. Well I think it was just individuals because I mean they made the money, you know. N.F: p.e: N.F: p.e: Not many got 'caught'! No, no. Do you remember any incidents that happened? No, not too many...l think some of it was a little bit before 1 was old enough to remember, 1 think, 1 can remember hearing about it but...and I think it was going on when 1 was younger but they used to keep that stuff quiet, you know... they used to talk about It 'not in front of the kids'...and the kids tried to know everything. N.F: p.e: That's the truth too. I can remember you know, it was just horses no cars... my father got a car from Mr. Hawley one time and took us down the boulevard and we had a flat tire... we were all set for a picnic. But... you just didn't have any money for cars or anything like that then, it was just that. ( He had worked when he met my mother he was working in Elliot's Drug Store, and they wanted him to go through for, you know like a pharmacist ...but they got married and the family started so that was it...but then he worked for Hawley for years...l can remember going down to Hawley's Saturday night they, my dad got paid and paid the bill, 1 suppose for the week, and we always got a bag of candy...of course 1 was always the first one in line ...but my sister she would never say 'thank you·...so she never got the candy. They were tough times, I'll tell you. Later my mother went to work in Buffalo, she was an American anyway, got her papers out and went back to work. N.F: p.e: A lot of people from Fort Erie must have done that. Yes, well then she was ... she worked as a waitress till she was seventy and then she just died last year, at ninety-six. Beautiful lady, really beautiful. My dad was remembered for his fishing you know, he could go out on that river and.. .! used to love to go with him ...and he could catch fish, there would be boats all around him and they'd never catch a fish. But he was a character. ( N.F: He lived on the boulevard there? 10 �( N.F: p.e: There were a lot of boat houses down there. Well the railroad...there was the railroad used to come and bring lumber you see...and then that was railroad property, and they used to just let them . . . they paid just a small sum each year and that's why they lived there you see...and then the railroad closed it out and the Niagara Parks, you see, yes they made them all move out. N.F: p.e: That's a shame, it was nice down there. Yes, yes it was, people had nice homes down there, but I guess that's progress... with the Niagara Parks of Canada. N.F: p.e: You can't argue with them. No, they keep such beautiful...you know I mean they really...they've done such a beautiful job along that boulevard. It's really beautiful. And the forts and everything I can remember when the Old Fort was just a crumbled ruins we used to go up...one time I remember the Americans used to roll down the hills...they were the only ones who had money you know...and then one time we were there and I found a quarter, fifty cents and stuff like that... everybody else went home and I stayed and kept collecting money and I got about' ( a dollar and a quarter and I knew I was going to 'get the devil' so I went down to the 'back road' we called it...and I went down to Elliot's Drug Store and got a box of chocolates for my mother but oh, oh what a whomping I got when I got home ...forget the chocolates but that's what we used to do for entertainment... you asked what did we do for entertainment. N.F: p.e: You 'make' it. Well that's what we used to do on a Sunday, go to the Old Fort and then I don't think there were concerts then...there may have been but I don't remember...but no I don't think sO ... we just went up there and they rebuilt it you know, it's all different now, oh, It's beautiful. I love that you know, read the history of the Fort you know and of course the Americans ...they say they won every war...and I always say 'if they did then we'd be American wouldn't we'. So I always figured that this is one war they lost. Like there's Doug Crook that lives in the building here and he says he can remember ( planting some of those trees out there you see...this road that comes 1 1 �( here you see was Albany Road. and then the Lakeshore. and there was houses you see...and businesses...and everything has changed so...this is a beautiful place here...they keep this park up I love it...I would never want to leave now I had a brother and two sisters and they all went to California to live and I'm the only one here... dad died in fifty-seven. NoF: PoC: Where did you used to work? Welll...when I was younger and single there wasn't too many jobs but I did work at the Arner Company and then I got married...so I didn't work for a few years...then nineteen-forty forty-one I went to work at Irvin Airchute. for a year that was war time. and then l...my husband went In the service so I stayed home with the two kids. and then I worked there for five years at the Arner Company. I went back to work. that was it when he went in the service. I went back to the Arner Company...and then after that I had another baby. after the war and then I went to the Irvin Airshute ...I worked there and then I worked at the hospital for eleven years. I was a nurse's ( aid...and then I worked in the library. worked in the library for three and a half years...and I've had quite a few different jobs. But I loved the nursing and as I got older I did some home nursing for about five years. and I enjoyed that. Then I retired. NoF: PoC: NoF: PoC: Sounds like a very good idea. Yes. What was Arner making when you worked for them? False teeth I reme mber. yes because we had a false teeth room we had...yes there were quite a few girls in there. Yes and they made for 'Upjohn'. they made salts and stuff like that. that had to be con­ trolled. in controlled rooms you knowthey had to keep them cold. then they used to make like vitamins and stuff and they had to be kept cold. certain vitamins they had...oh. it was beautiful to see the pills all made and everything. they had big vats you know. and they used to put the colours in...it was really a big outfit it was a shame. you know. that it closed. NoF: I PoC: It must have employed quite a few people. Yes it did. a lot of people were in there a good many years. most of their lives you see. 12 �( N.F: P.C: Did you have annual picnics or parties? Well they had some Christmas Parties that I never went to, but I guess they used to have some good times there, but never any picnics. I enjoyed my work at the hospital, I had always wanted to be a nurse my mother talked me out of it...there were too many nurses out of work which wasn't really true, you know...1 don't think nurses are ever out of work. I enjoyed my work...and I used to work in O. B. and stuff like that I had different ones say 'Oh you were there when I had my baby', so you see a lot of people you know...so many people remember you, you try to do the best you can. But I liked the work at Irvin Air Chute too, it was interesting. N.F: P.C: Were they just producing one thing? Yes, parachutes...you know it was really a big thing in nineteen-forty forty-one you know...see because I was on final inspection and we had Sir Fredrick Banting, you know, he had these, like accidents the parachutes would come back for repairs, and you see Fort Erie was...there was one in Sorrell Quebec, I think but Fort Erie was ( the only one in Canada that I reme mber. N.F: P.C: Is that right? Yes, it was an American firm, you see, and then we got all the gov­ ernment contracts and then we had to keep track of all the ones that were... 'dropped tested', they used to drop test them at Fleet and then we had to keep track of the ones that were drop tested and then they sent some out that weren't drop tested, you see, and the ones that were dro tested were naturally more, and then they used to go in the weeds and everything you know, and then there would be holes in the chutes and then we'd have to go over them all and mark them and have them repaired you see and it was a lot a lot of work, but Sir Fredrick Bantings whatever they had when they went down, was all covered with this silver stuff, they never did tell what they carried on that flight...and we used to have to bring it out and show it to inspectors, and stuff like that, you know we had to for a long time there. N.F: ( P.C: That's really interesting. It was very interesting...then we had the Norwegians come over 13 �( here and trained, I think out west and then they came to see how the parachutes were made, and everything I can remember them and they couldn't speak any English...and we were trying to tell them what we were doing, you know, but it was very interesting... and then they used to cut, you know ... George Baum...who used to be the Mayor here at one time .. .! wonder if he was the Mayor when we amalgamated, nineteen-forty, no he wouldn't be I don't think, but he was Mayor here for quite a few years...and he was Mayor at this time...and how they used to cut the materials out and everything it was really fabulous, you know, all the canvas for the packs and everything, you know they'd lay it all out, mark it all, and then put holes in it and everything... and then the girls would sew them, you know, and my sister worked there, they had zig-zag machines and everything...it was really an experience. N.F: p.e: N.F: ( p.e: It must have been a lot of equipment. Oh, yes there was. And a lot of people worked there too? Yes, there were a lot of people who worked there they had two... in fact they had the factory where it is now, and over on Jarvis Street up above some of the buildings there ...where Kirkland used to be in there it was called...Stratton Building I think...and they used to have Irvin up there too...another...not like a regular factory, buy they did work up there too. N.F: p.e: That was busy. It was, it was really busy...well as I say...the only place that made parachutes. N.F: p.e: Yes. The war had a lot of effect on the area? Oh, yes. I often think Bill Prow, he went overseas and was killed... I see where one of his sons just died...he never saw his second son... and his father had gone to the First World War and was killed and never saw this Bill Prow...and then it just seemed like a coincidence that Bill Prow, he couldn't get a job at Fleet, you know, they wouldn't employ Fort Erie people...oh, no way...you could say you were from Stevensville, Ridgeway, all the west people came to here...a lot ( of people from the west who live here now came here to work at 14 �( Fleet... and they wouldn't take a Fort Erie boy on, a few got in but not too many ...and he applied for Fleet, and he couldn't...and he went in the army and they had one son and they were expecting the second one when he was killed, and his mother worked at the Arner Company, when I did during the war, and they had to bring the news to her there. But I always thought it was such a coincidence that his father had never seen him and he never saw his youngest son. We had a lot go we had three brothers... Anderson boys, that went all at one time, you know, because in nineteen thirty-nine they went in ... we had a Militia here you see, my husband used to be in the Militia...and a lot of them that were in the Militia went right away...cause they had some training. Oh yes we used to have an armory here, it was on �lain Street and it wound up out at Fleet then they just went out of here all together. And the Legion has always been ...both my husbands were veterans and I'm a Life Member of the Legion Auxiliary for thirty-nine years. N.F: ( When did they first open a Post in Fort Erie or a Branch here? p.e: Well some of them were here ..l know it was on durring the war . I think they started just after the war about nineteen twenty-seven, that was when the Legion come in although some of them were in the Great War Veterans before that you see because I know my second husband lived in Montreal and he belonged to them up there so I mean now...this is the Sixtieth Anniversary, right this year of the Legion. The Diamond Jubilee, and a fellow from Fort Erie won ten thousand dollars ...Eddie Ballah. It was a real active place on Bertie Street, that's where it first opened, and then it was the Library after that...and then it was small, and around all the people and everything...and then the Town gave them the Old Town Hall, right where it is now...for a dollar a year for a hundred years ... that was the Old Town Hall, I can remember it had a jail In the basement and everything down on Queen Street where the Legion is right now, and there was a Library in there and the jail downstairs... Isn't that funny...and then I can remember upstairs it was a condemned building when the Legion got it ...so they had to steel...Mr Babbit from the Power Company helped he was a veteran...and they had 15 �( to put steel beams up, oh yes ... when they had a dance the whole floor would 'go like this', and I can remember when ... well there was something for entertainment . . . they had some kind of Follies that came here and I can remember this Joe Ward was in it, and they had swings on the stage...upstairs at the Legion, where the stage is now ... and they had these swings built with the girls on them with big hats, you know, I think Carol Hawley was one of the girls, I can't remember them all ... but I can remember that was fabulous, beautiful, it was, I'm sure people came from out of town ...with the outfits and everything. And it was I thought they called a Minstrel Show, but it might not have been ... but then you know the Lions Club used to have Minstrel Shows, do you remember that . . . they were beautiful. and everything. N.F: p.e: Jack Teal was always, you know sany 'Mammy' I wish he was still our Mayor. He was a very good Mayor? Oh, he was a good Mayor, he really was, he was In fifteen years, and I keep trying to talk h i m into coming back and he doesn't want to. He was a good Mayor. I N.F: p.e: N.F: We've had a lot of Mayors. Yes, we have. The early Mayors, first we had Fort Erie South, Bridgeburg, and then after it Amalgamated. At that time was politics a very popular thing to talk about--were people really involved in politics? p.e: Not as much as they are now, no. . .oh I guess they did too, but see we would have a Reeve, you see and I suppose Bridgeburg would have a Reeve too, see they weren't as big ...and then Lou Douglas, 1 can remember h i m he was always active in Politics ever since 1 can remember and he lived there on Archange Street, that lovely big house and he was always a, you know a good man . . . he seemed to be and there was Duncan, Bill Duncan, and there was just a few of them you see that sat on those boards and stuff, probably ran the Town the way they wanted to. N.F: p.e: ( N.F: But you would 'know them'. Oh, yes, I knew them well. Do you still have that feeling today? Do you still know the people 16 �( who run the town? p.e: Yes, oh yes. ]n fact] ran a couple of years ago myself. says it's a good thing I didn't win. My daughter Hah, hah.! thought i'd lived here all my life and] just thought maybe] could contribute something to it. N.F: p.e: What was the Fire Department like in the South End? Well] can remember Art Nolan, and my Uncle, Jonas Nye, and Charles Willick, and that's some of the men, Lou Douglas he was on the Fire Department and it was really something...that little building next to where the Legion is now, see the Legion was the Town Hall, and that was where the Fire Department was... and I'll tell you it was excitement when the fire whistle used to blow, you know, off up on the tower, and everybody would run over to the station to see where they were going you know, but it was really you know exciting in those days. N.F: p.e: What was the equipment that they had? Oh, just a...like now] didn't know the...! wasn't there when the horses were ... well they just had... think it's at the Race Track now, I think ] their first fire engine. Yes it was just a little one, you know they don't have them like they do now. My son's a fireman now, and they certainly you know for a Volunteer Fire Department, those fellows really work ...they deserve a lot of credit, they really do. But that was excitement if there was a fire. N.F: p.e: Would everybody go to the fires? Yes, we would go, and no cars or anything, going way up on Lavinia or Murray Street, there was somebody hung themselves in their that time...and] can remember we used to go and stand outside, and it's so crazy, you know, the fire was out and everything. the time you got there the fire was out. big fires, ] don't think. By But] can't remember any You know now they have much better equipment and that. N.F: p.e: When did they close that down, and move to Bertie Street? ] can't remember... the Legion came to that building in Forty-Six, they went there then and it was before that. ( N.F: It was before that. 17 �( P.C: Yes, a fireman could probably tell you but I don't remember when. It certainly is a big improvement. I think the best thing they ever got, was that new fire engine, you know, with the 'hook and ladder' this is the tallest building in Fort Erie, you know, and I mean even then it wouldn't reach the top but it certainly would help, when they got that...but we don't have that many tall buildings sure use it. Then there's the Fireman's Parades •.. •.• but we could and then they have that beautiful Jamboree every year. N.F: How long have they been doing that; it's quite a while now. P.C: Oh, yes. N.F: Was that before Fort Erie's Centennial; in Nineteen Fifty-Seven? P.C: I would say yes. I can remember Fort Erie's Centennial. Oh, yes. We went all over, we had Centennial Gowns and everything, you know, my daughter and I, and we had good times, went to Boston, New Yark, oh yes, we were real active, we had groups, you know, the Fort Erie Hotel was here then, and I was President of. oh, •• I can't even remember the name...you know we had Centennial ( Bells and everything ... we had different organizations around town. Oh, yes and we had meetings every week andwe went to all these parades •.• we dressed in all these clothes in the hot summer •.• you know, those long gowns, the hats, the purse and the gloves ... and then we went all over the States and everything ••. and Boston was a sesquitennial, because I had a little umbrellas from there, we had little cowbells and everything, yes we were real active. N.F: They had P.C: Oh, it lasted a whole year, we celebrated that whole summer, I ••. was it a week long celebration in Nineteen Fifty-Seven? mean we had just one great year, but we went all over and we had things...events and everything the whole summer we really celebrated..., ••• then to go back to the racetrack which we weren't talking about I can remember, you know, it's been here a long time and it was the Bertie Fair you know, that's what it was called years ago ••• the racetrack's been here a long time you know, it goes way back for a hundred years...it was one of the first racetracks in Canada I understand ( ..• that's why I would hate to ever see it close up. But anyway we had Bertie Fair 'and that was you know...everybody took 18 �vegetables and everything there and I can remember even walking ( up from the North End when my kids were little, pushing them in the buggy...still had it then and my son is firty and my daughter is forty­ nine, but when we were when I was in school we celebrated the twenty­ fourth of May more ...we really never heard too much of the First of July, and we celebrated the twenty-fourth of May and we had white blouses, you know with a pretty blue collar, and a little black tie and navy blue skirt and we used to do drills and the Maple Leaf .•. Forever, and stuff like that, I sing that to my grandchildren you know, a lot of people don't know it,and I said, rose and twine that was Scotland, England and Ireland you see, the Maple Leaf Forever, but there's no Fleur de Lis, and I think that's the reason they don't sing it, but you know, the police have a 'Tatoo', and have you ever been to that...that is beautiful and if you want to hear the Maple Leaf Forever...there is about three bands that played it there just about two weeks ago •.. on a Sunday, and it's me that's the Canadian song it should be •.. ••• .•. I love it it's beautiful .•• to my grandchildren write to me a lot and we used to go in the swimming pool and I used to ( sing this to them and they say I don't know the words to the Maple .•• Leaf Forever...because no one sings it anymore, it's a shame, it really is. (Can you tell me about the racetrack?) P.C: Well I've worked at the Racetrack different times, yes it's quite a job, you know, everybody's impatient to get waited on and stuff like that. I've worked in the stands I've never worked •• ••• that is such a beautiful place, you know, they have really, that's where everybody should take their company to see that racetrack you know, it's beauti­ ful. N.F: Has it always been as large as it is now? P.C: No, no they've built on ...just not too many years ago, I guess it's been quite a while ••• that all used to be open .•. that was all old stands and everything... they have really done a beautiful job through the years and spent a lot of money on it you know. And I have been to Santa Anita in California and it's dirty and I've seen pictures ( of it that look beautiful •.. in the movies and that ••• but it can't compare 19 �( when they say that this is one of the most beautiful tracks in North America. they are right because it certainly is much prettier than Santa Anita and they say that there is one in Florida that compares to it...but they have spent a lot of work and 1 would hate to ever see it c\ose...but then they have other things here you know...Guy Lombardo was here one time and everything at the racetrack...but as 1 say ...we used to have these drills and everything you know. we'd practice them at school and everything and oh. that was a big day when we got to the Bertie Fair...on the Twenty-Fourth of May. and did all our drills. and you know. everybody used to go ...1 don't know how we got there 1 guess we walked. yes and that was the...we sang all the partiotic songs. you know. well now they leave the Queen out of everything. N.F: p.e: 1 don't remember ever hearing anything about the Bertie Fair. Don't you? Oh that was ...it was ...it goes way back to like 1900 any­ way 1 guess or before and they used to...even when the racetrack. like the summers you know. it was the racetrack. but this was Sep­ ( tember...yes.for the harvest time...and that was... and they had like animals and everything you know. like the Royal Winter Fair. is...they had horses and animals and everything there. It was a big fair. it was a beautiful fair ...l can remember all the stands and everything ...and 1 can still remember them having the Bertie Fair and I took my kids in the buggy so it must have been like...about forty-five years ago...and they still were having it. maybe somebody else could tell you more about it. But it was beautiful and as 1 say it was.. .1 can remember coming. walking up from the North End to see it. and that was just about.. .1 think the last year they had it...so it's been ever just about that many years. When you said what do you do for entertainment and stuff like that you see 1 suppose there were things like that I've forgotten...and we always had fireworks on the Fourth of July. you see. now. never the First. now I can't remember when the First of July came in as Dominion Day. you call it or Canada Day. but as I say we had the Twenty-Fourth of May. we never had the First of July at that time. so that's been ( later. We never had too much to do but we had good times. you 20 �( just had to...well we played 'hop scotch', which the kids don't do now because it's too slow for them...they've got'star wars' and every­ thing else. They can't sit still now, and we had too, just sitting on the steps all the kids gathered, and this Florecnce Barlow, she was Florence Near, that lived down our street, she used to 'Toe Dance' you know, and get on the porch and that would be some entertainment for us and stuff like that...and we had swings on our porch. It was a quiet time, it was a better time for us, you know. N.F: P.C: It would be much more relaxed. Oh, yes it was. But, we saw a lot of buildings come and go, Douglas Hill, you know, they terraced it at one time, it was just hills. N.F: P .C: It was just hills? Originally just hills and then they terraced it, I think when I was still going to school they terraced it ...oh we used to ride the sleighs right down straight, you know, right on to the road, well there were no cars... we used to do the same, what we called the Bertie Hill, you see, where that big house is now you know...DougIas Hill we ( used to call it too...right there where I told you Lou Douglas used to live, well that used to be a hill there with no houses on it, and I can remember Mrs. Morrin was a school teacher and she had ski's and she used to let us...she let me get on the ski's and go down the hill...oh, that was a thrill ...we used to come right down there onto the road, you see, there wasn't the cars around there then, there wasn't the danger, and it was beautiful, we went over every night with our old bag or something to sit on, you know, we didn't have fancy slide things...well everybody went there every night and we didn't have the nylon clothes we had just stockings... it was something how they ever dried them for the next morning, because we didn't have all that many outfits ...and stockings.. .! remember I had the mumps and the other kids had to go to Grandma's, and the mumps they told me I had to eat a pickle...we had no doctors in those days you never went to the doctor, you just had the mumps. And I can remember these outside toilets...well we still had outside toilets when they moved our houses for the bridge...outside toilets went ( with us...oh yea, there they were building the Peace Bridge and we 21 �still had outside toilets...not too many in town, but we still had them. But they didn't have the sewers and the plumbing I guess in those days, and the people, that was on Walnut Street, and people right across the street had inside toilets and everything, the people next door I think, but we just...those houses were just up on 'logs' like you know, they weren't finished underneath...in the winter time we had to put straw underneath you know, to keep the wind out... and then they finally put basements underneath them, you see. But that was called the old, the old back road that went up like Erie Street...Erie Street, yea, and that used to be a big hill up there and this Mary Schmitt, she could tell you, well she moved to Buffalo too but, she is Mary Field now, she's seventy-six...and she drives cancer patients to Toronto all the time or Hamilton maybe, but she lived here and worked because she lived over there by the back road. But then coming down like from Albany here it was Helivan's on the corner, a great big house, he was a barber in town...and there was Nolans, and then Laperry's, and then there was this big... Wally ( Shishler had this big field there and a big garden, and his wagon used to sit there in the bush all the time...that's what we used to do, we used to go out and sit on his wagon and that, it was something that was a big deal, or something different. But we never got into any trouble that I can remember you know. N.F: p.e: Times have changed. I'll tell you...we got the strap that was all, but we just had fun, we had a big Collie dog, you know, everybody had dogs and cats and stuff like that they still do... and the races were here all summer, they would come and you know, solid they came the Fourth of July and right through September you know, a lot of employment for the town you know, and then everybody came to the races, you know, now they don't come like they used to, I don't think, and it was always good for us, as I say I would hate to ever see it close. N.F: p.e: N.F: ( p.e: Do you remember when the betting was different? Before the pari-mutuals, oh, yes. That must have been interesting. Oh, yes, but, things have sure changed...that's like where the Garrison 21 �( was, that's where the 'Barn' was you see, in the back of that building there, LaPerries used to live in there, you see a lot of changes...all up there ...there was all houses, remember Agnew-Surpass...they had their store there, and then those houses way up on the hill... that was beautiful, oh, yes it really was. I used to peddle papers all up around in there, oh, in the middle of winter, and I'd get up there by the Catholic ...it seemed miles away there, right across from that old Catholic Church still is, and the people used to take me in, it was so cold... and it didn't until now dawn on me, it was my brother's and I was helping him, he had Princess Street and all the little roads, and I up here. And they never plowed you see, and there wouldn't be cars, so it would just be where wagons went. N.F: p.e: N.F: And they usually got around quite well. Yes. But we had as I said they used to deliver our milk for us. When did they start paving the roads; would that be about the same time as the Peace Bridge? p.e: ( I bet it was after the Peace Bridge, yes because they were, I don't ever think they were paved before then, they had to pave them then you see, pave all there where you come off the Bridge. Now there was some paving because when they had, when they opened the Peace Bridge they had a 'Street Dance', up there and I can remember there was a dividing highway up there then, oh, it's still divided you see, they've changed the Bridge so much it used to be straight up off the Bridge and that was just the highway you see, and that was Main Street, and now it's Walden. . .and then when they built the 'Queen E' you see, you went a different way yes, that street is still there where they had the Street Dance and everything and that's where the Armories was and that, on that street everything too you see, and that was the only way you came off the Peace Bridge you went straight up. N.F: p.e: Isn't that different. And then the Garrison, of course, was never four iane like it is now, it was just as I say just two way, and that's where everybody used to line up till two or three in the morning and try to get over the 'Perry' from Crystal Beach. ( Crystal Beach must have been popuiar at that time but as I say it was more for swimming and everybody 23 �( came over and had parties, you see, because I'm sure they didn't go for rides and stuff like that I don't think, at that time . . .that would be about 1 9 25 . . .you see before they built the Bridge . .. when we still lived there. N.F: ',' I..... It's amazing the changes that there have been. Tell me about your :10\) l ts-ch:601 days'. P.C: Well, as I said, the first couple of years were spent in the other schools, and then we got into Douglas School... it was certainly different than it is now days ... you know when I go and look at all the steps to that school . . . but, we had good teachers, really average rooms and you know, and it was junior first and senior first then, instead of the grades, and it was... we had recess like everyone else, and at Douglas School it was just about the same as it is now . . . well we used to have school meets and stuff like that . . . but nothing like the entertainment of the tri ps they take now, we had exams different than they do now . . . they came at the end of the year you know, and you never knew; especially if you were in the older grades, you didn't know for a long time into ( the summer, but now the kids know already if they passed (by the end of the year ) , but we didn't then, we had to wait into, oh, August, you wouldn't know if you passed until August anyway, if you went into High School. .. it was terrible...you had to wait all summer to hear, oh, and then it was such a time for the ones that didn't get through you know, just terrible. But you know, we didn't have s w i m m ing pools or anything like that there was no cooking classes or anything like that... for the majority of kids it's better now you know, well I have some old school pictures, really old ones...of classes and stuff like that...everything was much different. N.F: P.C: You would always walk to school? Oh yes, yes or are you kidding ... no cars . . . and they came all the way from Erie Beach, and the Old Fort, and walked all that distance in the middle of winter . . .and it was bad ... we didn't have the clothes that the kids have now, we just had stockings and stuff, long under­ wear ... you had to wear it in those years... you'd freeze to death, but the Buri's and the Z i m merman's all them and the Ardells everything ( up there from Erie Beach. . . it was a long, long way... to waik to High 24 �School, to Bridgeburg ...l often felt sorry for them, they wouldn't get home till it was way dark, because I don't think we got out at three o'clock then, I thinll it was four when we were in High School, I don't ever remember us getting out early. N.F: P.C: N.F: P.C: Would you have day's off because of the weather? No, are you kidding? You just kept on going? Oh, yes, because the winter was like that all winte r , they don't know what it was like now, but in High School then we had a cafateria, you know so that was a little better. We had a lot of basketball and volleyball and stuff like that, I think we had more then than they do now, maybe they don't have as much now...but I was on the Junior Team, the Senior Team the volleyball and the + e had... 'field days', that I don't hear too much about now, we had the running broad jump, and the standing broad jump, and the high jump...and maybe they still have them, but we spent a lot of time at that, once the weather : r was nice. N.F: P.C: Who would you compete with? Ridgeway and Fonthill and Weiland and then I can remember going to Crystal Beach one time, Burnett's had a car and took some of us . up and we competed at Crystal Beach, you know in that old...it's still there, they still have a few things there, like a stadium ...and we used to compete in there, that I can remember. Yes we would go from the High School, the ones who had cars would take the students then...and I don't think we ever had a bus...1 think it was just individual cars... and that was a big time. N.F: P.C: Did you win? Yes, I was quite a runner in those days, and then as I say, I can remember going to Crystal Beach one time and I won a gold medal, and I can remember going to the High School, we went while we were still in public...and I'd get the medal in the auditorium and that was some­ thing. N.F: P.C: ( I'll bet it was. Things have changed a lot, those were activities we had. Well then we had the swim ming pool in High School, or did we, yes I think we 25 �( did, so they probably put that in when they built the school I guess, the school hadn't been built too many years when I went there, because I know the ones who were a couple of years older went to Wintermute, to the High School there, my sister and she's just two years older ... so we were ... maybe at Amalgamation, but now I know it was there in 1930 because that's when I went to High School. N.F: p.e: N.F: p.e: Did you play any baseball? Yes, played for the Town Team. For the Town Team? Yes, well they have all kinds of teams now you know, and stuff like that, but I can remember when .. .'white ducks' you know, we called them ...slacks which was real daring in those days. Thelma Jackson, used to be Thelma Near, she used to be a great athlete, I used to try to keep up with her, she was a beautiful athlete, she was good. Yes we used to walk over every night to watch the ballgames at the Bowen Road Diamond, there wasn't any Oakes Park then, you see... no those were all just fields, oh, I can remember going to see, you ( remember those houses in the West End ...those were 'War Time Houses', you see, so before that, that was just common . . .! can remember going to my aunt's on Idlewylde Street, when there was just nothing...you would go from Murray Street right across the commons there was no houses though, there at all...like on Catherine Street, or anyplace like that just the odd house, an old house may be sitting there, but nothing right up to ...right over to Idlewylde Street...those are all war time houses in there ...see that must have been about nineteen hundred and ...well that must have been after forty they were built because in 1 9 3 9 the war started ... they were probably put in about 1940. N.F: p.e: N.F: p.e: Well that certainly made a lot of changes. Those were houses for people who came into work in the area? Oh yes. It would make a big change in the area. See there were thousands that worked at Fleet, and a lot of people from the west and everything . . ! lived on Catherine, and the guy next . door had come from the west, you see they bought a house after the ( war, but before the war, and then he went to the war and come back, 26 �( his brother lived in Weiland. But it certainly changed the town, built it up . .. extended it... oh, you know, the South End was very small, you know there was just... one area. We lost a lot of boys overseas too, you know ... John Lisk, Gordon Barnhardt, and a lot of them, it was a shame. But that is the way it has to g o . N.F: I would like to thank you very much for the interview; and have a very good day. ( f 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Cheffins, Pauline Location The location of the interview. Fort Erie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Cheffins, Pauline 1985 Oral history transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/7eea30df532042780edcb84186ec33ab.pdf 91d46257e42df36bef276a79b7ba6c1e PDF Text Text Diana Matthews interviewing Mrs. Gladys Barnhart in her ho�e at 173 Battery Street, Fort Erie. Ma.y 22nd 1985. D.M: Hello Mrs. Barnhart, how are you today? G.B: Very well, thank-you. D M: Vlere you born in Fort Erie? G.B: No, I was born in Michigan, in, Detriot. D.M: How long have you lived in Fort Erie? G.B: 45-4 7 years. D.M: How old were you when you moved here? G.B: I must have been around 24. I man·ied my husband and it was through • . marriage that I came to Fort Erie, but I'm really from Buffalo, and of course I spent many wonderful years here with my good husband and of course Fort Erie is my home. D.M: What was your first impression of Fort Erie when you got here? G.B: Well, of course living in Buffalo, you know, we used to go· to Erie Beach, so we just used tbe ferry, paicl_ a nickel and came over and then we could either walk up or you know. So that I really I didn't get too accquainted with the town. I did meet a cashier that we used to come over and see, and my mother as well. It was very snall, it was Fort Erie and Bridgeburg, and we used to think it was fun to pay a nickel on the ferry, walk all the way to tbe :North End and go to a show in another tmvn! Then come back to Fort Erie, that was another town, and then to Buffalo. Vle had fun that way. l\.1y mother said one of these days the Customs and Immigration are going to get after you, they will. wonder why you are going over tbere so much! However, they brought us back and forth. It 1,vas smaller then and of course up around Erie Beach and all, there was so many American cottages, people that came for the su r..1m er . It was almost a summer resort. Other than the railroads, then of course Fleet came in and the industry started and they amalgamated the two towns and it became one larger city. D.M: What was Jarvis Street like then? G.B: Really, a number of stores, but as I say, like with us going to that show on Dufferin, we wouldn't be going up into the shopping district because we didn't have that much. By the time v.'e came here to live, there was the A.&P. and. Lobla>vs and alot of stores hac. come into town, so it was growing. Then Rossman's came in and many stores like that. 1 �D.M: What about the South End, was it the same as it is now? G.B: Pretty much. I would say quite the same, except where the Imperial Bank is, there was a home, and Agrette's had a little store where the Kar-Mel shop is, but it wasn't really all that large, you really went to Jarvis Street to shop. D.M: I understand you worked at Erie Beach. G.B: Yes. D.M: What type of work did you do there? G.B: Well, the first year they gave me selling ice cream cones at a little stand and then the next year, because I was 14, I could go cashiering which was what I wanted to do. So, of course, with all the big band names coming in, I wanted to be down in the park, instead of that they put me right out at the end selling all the tickets for the boats and the trains and of course the concession tickets. Everybody went whizzing by you to get into the park, but coming home, I was quite busy because everybody wanted either tickets for maybe a last ice cream cone at the stand that was there and definitely your transportation tickets 'cause they didn't. take any cash on the boat or the train. D.M: You had to buy tickets to get everything? G.B: Yes. D.M: Tickets were the money in the park? G.B: Yes, everything you wanted to ride, it would be, maybe, one ticket two tickets, three tickets or whatever. The tickets were five cents each, and sometimes people would stop and buy 4 or 5 dollars worth and they would have their tickets for all the rides. I think even for the.games you paid tickets. There was no cash handled among any of the stands and that, but I can recall that there were many cashiers. D.M: What type of games were there, like on a midway? G.B: Yes. They called it the midway. D.M: Can you remember some of the games? G.B: Oh ..•. there was definitely the fish pond for all the kids and then there was the human fish, she put a show on. She was in a tank and she'd eat a banana and do different things underwater. There was curtains all the way around and we always figured it was an illusion, that she couldn't possibly ... it always left people wondering whether she was really underwater or whether it was an illusion, you know, the way they had it set up. And then of course there was the bowling alley and a dart game. Not too many really .•• then 2 �they had some kind of a game, I don't know what they called it, it was a japanese man that ran it, and of course his prizes were all pieces of china, a little vase or something like that. D.M: They gave away prizes at the games? G.B:. Right. D.M: What about the Dance Hall, did you go in there very much? G.B: Well, every time I got a chance to, as I mentioned, they had big band names of course we had an hour for lunch and an hour for .•• dinner and then we had 15 minute breaks. The washrooms were all at the Dance Hall and by the time you got through all that crowd on your 1 5 minute break and stood in line, you were lucky to get back in time. Especially me, because I was at the very end of the park. Then I had to wait until everybody was off, pretty well situated, then I ••• the night watchman carried ••• because I had a great big can plus my cash box, so I used to run ahead of him and get my cash box in there so I could get back and get the last train down to the ferry to go home. So, as I say, that was pretty much the system then. D.M: What was in the Dance Hall, was it just for dancing? G.B: Well, it was a .•• they had like these verandahs with park benches and you could go and sit if you got too warm dancing. But generally people would stand around. Then you could go upstairs where there were more benches and that and you could sit there and watch them dance and listen to the music. My mother loved to go there and sit. Other than that you had to go to the stand for refreshements. D.M: I thoughfthere was a bowling alley in the dance hall. G.B: Downstairs there was another bowling alley. And also a checking room, if you had your picnic basket and you didn't want to carry it, you could check it. D.M: What were the swimming pools like? G.B: Well, I only got in once or twice because I was working long hours, but yes, it was very nice and of course very clean, the water was always clean. D.M: How many pools were there? G.B: Well, there was the big pool, it was on the right hand side of the Dance Hall, that was the big one, then there was the babyhole, what we called the babyhole, it was just a little bit of water. Then right next to that one was an open air Dance Hall with a great 3 �big band shell, and they used to have dances there too. Open air dancing they used to call it. During the summertime, I'm not sure if they had one in the Dance Hall and one out there, I think they just alternated, I don't think they had two dance bands because they were too close together. D.M: Do you remember any of the bands that came to play there? G.B: Can't bring any of them to my mind. D.M: You said you worked long hours, how many hours a day did you work? G.B: Well, 12 hours. You had to be to work by 12, and then of course you closed your stand at 11:3 0, but by the time you ••• we didn't have fridgidaires in those days and you had to pack the ice all around the things you know, and that took another half an hour, and if you were going to ride that train, you only took 20 minutes to do it. The men used to pick up our ticket boxes as we called them, because I sold tickets for whatever they wanted, if they wanted a 5¢ ice cream cone or a 10¢ one. So that way they paid me, there was no cash. D.M: How much would you have made for working 12 hours? G.B: 10 dollars. D.M: 10 dollars for 12 hours? G.B: No, for 6 days. They let me have Sunday off on that one because I think the rides could not operate on Sunday's. Of course you just had more or less picnickers, that way you wouldn't be quite as busy as when the rides were open. D.M: Was thatalot of money then? G.B: Oh, When I went back to school, I think I had 90 dollars in the bank, I saved it all, and I felt very rich. }rp e of things did they sell in the park, did they have stands? D.M: What t G.B: Oh, like Mr. Weir, he had a great big stand and they were famous for their clam chowder, and they had hot dogs and hamburgers and desserts, pies and things. I guess mostly sandwiches. Then there was the Rockeman's that was way out where I was working, near the train where the depot was� They had a big restaurant and they served breakfasts and things like that. There was the big hotel that burned down and they had all full course meals, and you didn't have to be a guest to dine there, just as long as you were... well, there were no shorts and slacks, so everyone was able to go in. D.M: Did it cost anything to get into the park? 4 �G.B: No, admission was free. D.M: Were there souvenier stands? G.B: I believe there was one, not too big, not too many souveniers. D.M: Can you remember any of the rides? G.B: Oh yes. Of course I was riding those because my uncle was the master mechanic there and he used to take me around and I used to get all free rides. They added several ••• the Heyday was very new. D.M: What was that? G.B: Well, it was something like what you call crack-the-whip, you know what I mean, only there were double cars and they'd swing you around rather than just the single car. It was just a little larger crack-the-whip, that's all, but it was modernized a little bit. D.M: What about the Old Mill, what was that? G.B: Oh, that was great too, that was at the end of the park, you went on these boats ••• I don't think we went through a tunnel, but you'd go up on a ramp and you'd splash down and people would be standing there and they'd get soaking wet and they'd holler. Then the time office was right next to that, I had a picture of that with my husband standing in front of it. D.M: What was the Blue Streak? G.B: Well, the Blue Streak was quite daring, but nothing in comparison to what we have today. .D.M: Was it a roller coaster? G.B: Yes. You went up on a high peak and then you went down and oh! Then you went down to the end of the park and back, we thought they were pretty steep. D.M: Did anybody ever get hurt on them? G.B: Yes, one man fell off, he stood up. When you went around... you know... it jerked around to get up speed to go ..• and he stood up and I don't know, he just went out. D.M: Was he killed? G.B: Oh yes. He was a sailor in from York, they came in on a boat from Scotland and this one fellow had an aunt or something living in Buffalo and since they had shore leave, these 6 boys were guests and they decided to go to Erie Beach for a good time so they all came over. After the accident, apparently they were on shore leave but they weren't to leave the country or New York State, so they were really all in trouble, but I guess people were not thinking of 5 �Erie Beach being out of the country, why, they just came through. They still had to go through immigration, but anyways, I understand the park wasn't responsible because they had signs all around-do ( not stand up, but he did. D.M: That was on the Blue Streak? G.B: Yes. D.M: Do you remember any of the other rides? G.B: Oh yes, I can remember them all, the Tumblebug, the Merry-go-round... D.M: What was the Tumblebug? G.B: It was sort of a thing that went up and down too, but it kinda jerked. I don't know, it gave you a ride of some kind, I can remember it quite well but I don't remember riding it too many times, of.course when you are working 12 hours a day, you're not going to get many free rides. There were quite a few nice rid�s in there. D.M: What ride was where the cement triangular things are out near the water? G.B: Oh yes, my mother would never let me ride that! Even when I was young and went to Erie Beach. D.M: ( What was it called? G.B: I can't remember . There was also the slide that went around and then this one here... well there were chairs and you swung around. I don't know whether Crystal Beach had one or not. You went out over the water and it was so full of rocks that if one of those chains ever gave away... my mother said it was dangerous so she would never let me ride it so I never did get a chance to... and then it was like off that walk and everybody was so rushed to get to the Dance Hall that I think the ride really... as I remember, I think the last year or so, they didn't even operate it because I don't think people got down there to ride it. Maybe many people had the same thought as my mother, it was too dangerous! Instead of being chairs, they were little boat shaped things, I think two people sat in them, one in the front and one in the back. D.M: The Americans coming from Buffalo to Erie Beach, did they have to go through Immigration? G.B: Oh yes. They'd come in on the boat and the boat office was there. An American officer and American Customs, same as Canadian, { they had two sets of officers. When they went through, they went through the American side to go to Buffalo because there was no 6 �Immigration at Buffalo, and then the same thing was at the ferry ••• Oh no, I have to correct myself, when you went, the American officer was on the American side, because the boat docked right at the foot of Ferry Street. D.M: Did many of the people that lived in Fort Erie visit Erie Beach, or was it mainly Americans? G.B: Well I presume some of them did, but where the boats and trains , came in, they would be loaded on certain days and you couldn't hardly walk, so I would say they had to depend mostly on Buffalo and surrounding towns, but I'm quite sure there were alot of Canadians going up on their holidays, because we were busy on the Canadian holidays -- a well as the American. D.M: Were there special celebrations at the park on holidays? G.B: I don't recall that there were. I just remember, as I mentioned, they started putting in years or the last year ••• ••• I dont know whether it was the last two giving ••• putting on shows out on the grass. They had one show that the girls were diving from quite a height, you know, swan diving and all those different things and the one girl ••• the horse wasn't very large and he used to go up on the ramp, of course he didn't go all the way up, he went just so far, and he would jump and she would be on his back and they'd jump into the big pool. D.M: Was that the Diving Horses? G.B: Yes. D.M: You said your uncle worked at the park, what did he do? G.B: He worked all year round. If a ride would get into trouble or wasn't just right, he would have to fix it, he used to go over the rides every morning. All winter long he broke down all the motors and replaced anything that was worn and things like that. And also he took care of he zoo animals. D.M: There was a zoo? G.B: Oh yes, we had a small zoo. There was a bear and monkeys of course and goats and snakes ••• I'm not too sure about snakes. He used to feed them and take care of them and the little bear was tame and he'd walk around the machine shop with my uncle!! D.M: Your uncle, what was his name? G.B: William Whiteside. D.M: When did the park open for the summer? G.B: It would open for the Canadian holiday, 24th of May at that time 7 �and they closed Labour Day. D.M: What happened during the winter, was it kept up? G.B: Well, people had ways of protecting their stands from the winter, ( and then the rides would be all covered up. I don't think our Merry-go-round was built in. I think the one up at Crystal Beach has doors •.• there must have been a big tarp... I would be gone, and when they opened up, they were all running. D.M: I was told that the big swimming pool was used as a skating rink in the winter. G. B: Quite possible. Mr. Bardol, he was very good about things like that, and I would think they did. Living in Buffalo, we had to go roller skating, there was no rinks, we had no arenas in them days. D.M: Did you know Mr. Bardol? G.B: No, no I didn't, because I think he died either the year or two before I worked, but I knew his wife, she was pretty well ••• cross, I guess you'd say. She would inspect that park and if you weren't just doing everything right •.• I wasn't there, but they said that one day in June, well, you know, some of the kids were still in school, so the crowds didn't get over quite like they did in the summer months, and they had all these ice cream stands and the girls kept them all polished, ( they had soda fountains and things like that and of course, naturally you could run out of work •.• she just came along and fired everybody, closed up all the stands. That's how ••• I mean she was irrational like that, there was no reason why the girls ••. if the girls were wasting their time and didn't have the cleaning done, you could see, but they had them all polished up. But apparently there was sort of a •.• and as I say, they threatened me-you're 13! Don't let anybody in this park know you're 14, if you do, you get fired. It was against the law to hire me, but times were good and it was hard to get people to work for two months or three months. They had to depend alot on the school children, like high school children and things like that. Times were good, and people wouldn't waste their time on a job like that. D.M: G.B: Three. D.M: How many ferries were there going between Erie Beach and Buffalo? G.B: ( How many years did you work there? There were two regularly, but I think on the very busy days, they used the third one. It was the one that went all year around because it was an ice breaker as well. The other boats didn't have steel bottoms. 8 �They couldn't get through the ice. Then the trains ran, both engines ran every day, on a busy day, otherwise, it was just the one train ( going back, but they had two engines. They'd go every half hour. D.M: Where did the boat bring you, to the big dock? G.B: Yes. You know where Louie Ziff's office is down here? Agrette's store? Well, that was all your ferry landing and your boats would load up. D.M: What about the big dock at the end of Bardol Road, what was that used for? G.B: Oh! Yes, now I do remember that. That one was where they loaded the boats up. That was the end of the park and that was where they loaded everybody up, and there would be two boats going back and forth all the time. That was where you got on and got off, then you walked that length and you hit the Customs and Immigration, then you were in the park. D.M: Do you remember the name of any of the ferries or the boats? G.B: The two boats that came into the beach were called the Ossian Bedell and the something. I think they had one other boat, but I'm not sure whether .••• ( The ferryboats were the New Town or the Newton, Jamaica and I forget what they called the ice-breaker. D.M: Where did the trains bring you? Where did they start and end? G.B: As I say, the ferry dock was there and there was the drugstore which is where Louie Ziff is now. Right in back of that was the paper store. He was Madeline Gibson's uncle and he was blind, he sold papers. He was blind, but he could tell you whether he was handling American money or Canadian Money. I had never witnessed it, but they said he could even tell the difference in the bills, I don't know about the denomination ••• but nobody was going to give you a dollar to buy a paper, what were they, 8 cents or something like that ••• or a dime, most everybody had change. The train came right in back of that and there were benches and you could sit there and wait for the train and then they'd load the train up. D.M: Where did it take you, to the other end of the park? G.B: I don't remember going that far, Al (Reid ) said it went as far as that store. There wasn't a store there when we were there the other day, but there used to be Hunt's Store and Mrs. Bardol lived on the other corner. He said it went that far, but when I started working there, it just went ••• well, I'd say it went to the Orchard, and turned 9 �around and came back. They didn't go through the park when I got there. D.M: What's the Orchard? G.B: Well, that was like the Grove ••• or the picnic tables. All apple trees and different things that people could you know, go there and have their lunch. I think Al called it the Grove, that's the way it started ? out, just as a picnic place, you pro" ably heard him say that. What did he say, was it 19 1 2 that Mr. Bardo! started Erie Beach and putting amusements in it. . . D.M: 19 10. G.B: Oh, 19 10. D.M: Why did the park close in 1930? G.B: Well, I guess it was Depression that helped it and then Mr. Pardee bought it, and Mrs. Bardo! was getting older and the boys were going to run the park but apparently they felt like they didn't want it anymore, but I think the crowds were going down. I think Depression helped alot. D.M: Do you remember when the hotel burned? G.B: Yes. I was going with my husband at the time and I met him and he came over and he said ••• he didn't have a car so he borrowed the neighbors next door and it broke down just about in the middle of the street going up, just before you go up the Dominion Road, we had only a volunteer Fire Department, so Buffalo helped them out. So they were bringing these trucks over and the Peace Bridge was built by this time, anyway, they are corning along with their sirens and they're saying Get out of the way! He's gonna hit that car, cause he couldn't move it and it was an old heavy thing. Anyways, I don't know how he got by us, really! He went right by us. They had to depend too, I guess, on pumpers, because as I remember they might have had some water in there, but not up that far. I know they had to depend on Buffalo to help them. D.M: It burned to the ground? G.B: Oh, yes. Because it was an old wooden frame. It was only a summer hotel, so it wasn't that ••• but of course it had walls, but I don't know what kind. D.M: It didn't burn down for 5 years after the park closed, what was it used for for those 5 years? G.B: I wouldn't really know because we didn't come here from Buffalo, and if we did we went to Crystal Beach and that would have been 10 �on the boats. I don't know what they used it for unless they used it for storage or just left it there, whether they sold the furniture, I wouldn't know. By this time, the boys had it and they weren't too interested in carrying ••• oh no, Mr. Pardee owned it when it burned down. On the other hand I think the Bardols bought it back, I believe they got it back... he had so much invested in it and he shot himself, so I believe it did go back into the hands of the Bardol's. D.M: What happened to the amusements and everything when it closed? G.B: Well, they were bought by different companies, now if you go to the Skylon, unless they changed it, the Merry-go-round downstairs is the old Erie Beach Merry-go-round and if you look around, there's a sign there saying that it is the Merry-go-round from the old Erie Beach. D.M: Where's that? G.B: The Skylon in Niagara Falls. You go downstairs and there's a Merry-go-round there. Now, I don't know, this was quite a few years ago, maybe it's worn out and they don't have it anymore, I'm not sure. It had a sign around there someplace saying it was th.e old Erie Beach carousel. Where the other ones went, I don't know. I heard some went here and some went there, but by this time, I was through school and I had a steady job. But I think my uncle really stayed there until some of the things went, but of course he didn't have to worry about his job, because he had his machine shop on Niagara Street in Buffalo, so he didn't have tp worry about getting another job or staying on, I don't know just what they did with it. That's the only place that I know I remember my father saying that somebody else bought ••• something from Toronto and another one ••• I don't know if they brought it from Pennsylvania or what, took it to Pennsylvania, but that's just what I've heard. D.M: Whay did Erie Beach close and not Crystal Beach? G.B: Well, I don't know. So many people always thought Erie Beach was nicer than Crystal, but don't forget they had all the sand for swimming and that would be a big attraction. And they had a much larger Dance Hall too, so... whoever bought Crystal Beach seemed to be able to keep it going. Mr. Pardee ••• it just seemed to go apart after the Bardol's sold it, it didn't seem to hold up. But anyways, they managed •.. Also, Crystal Beach is really a town too, if company came, it would be the first place to go, to the beach, Crystal Beach. 11 �But I don't know whether Hall's ••• no, I don't think Hall's have it any more, somebody else has it. It seems to me, people named Hall used to have it. D.M: Did you go to Crystal Beach much? G.B: Well, I think I did more so when I was younger, you know, I was a kid going, but after I started working, then ... after I got finished with Erie Beach I was looking .for steady work and I was out of school, so this way I didn't get over quite as much. D.M: You mentioned you knew Mrs. Bardol, were you ever in her house? G.B: Yes, just once. I had to go up there for something, and I can't recall what it was, but I don't think I got any farther than the kitchen. She was so ••• I mean her face and everything were just ugly, I don't know!! I hate to say this about her because the whole three sisters... there were the three sisters, Mrs. Mann, and oh, what were the other ones ••• and they were all so tough ••• that one lady's name .•• I wish I could remember but anyway, you just felt fear! Not my uncle of course! But any of us in the park, 'cause she'd go up to the park and she'd stomp through and she'd be .• dark. That's all I can say. D.M: ( Do you remember the inside of the house? G.B: Well, as I say, the kitchen was a very large kitchen, I didn't see the other part. From what I understand it was very nice. The windows are much different than when she lived there. I didn't think it was quite the same. I was a little surprised, the store across the street, now Harry Heatherington, he had that store going for years. D.M: It's called Taco The Town now, it's a taco stand. G.B: Oh, is that it? It was a grocery store and Harry Heatherington carried alot of fresh meat. When they had it, it was a grocery store, and then they had china and things like that, English china the people would pick up. I don't know whether they stay open all winter long, but I know Harry Heatherington did. By this time people were buying up the houses, they were selling their cottages and that ••• and the Fleet coming in. People were selling their cottages and making them into year-rot.ind houses. D.M: I understand the Bardol's owned alot of the houses along the lakeshore. G.B: They did, yes. I believe those lots are being sold. The Bardol home ••• It was Bob ( Bardol) I think, was it Bob or Edgar ( Bardol) that built that house up on that knoll right at Albert Street? D.M: Bob, I think. G.B: Because as I remember, there was an old place up there, and somebody 12 �said it used to be a bathhouse, where people changed their clothes. By the time I got going to Erie Beach, the doors and the windows were out. But there were always little cottages along there. In fact, { I guess they ran out of them towards the end there. Then it became run down. D.M: Do you have anything else you'd like to add? G.B: Well, I think I've just about told you everything that I can remember or anything that was outstanding. The rest was just everyday work, people coming and going. Outside of that one fellow falling off the Blue Streak, everything seemed to be quite general ••• unless alot of things went on that I didn't find out about! But I'm sure I would have heard it. D.M: Thank-you very much. G.B: Thank-you. It was very interesting talking, to you. ( 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Diana Matthews Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Gladys Barnhardt Location The location of the interview. Crescent Park Lodge, Hagey Street, Fort Erie. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Barnhardt, Gladys Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of the Gladys Barnhardts' interview. She discusses topics such as: Jarvis Street Erie Beach The Great Depression Ferries Customs and Immigration Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 1985 1930s 1980s 1985 Erie Beach Fort Erie Oral history streets and avenues transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/96aabaece829924b50d0f723e1e4418d.pdf f26d86468ca6382daecf3c2dcfa6b9ae PDF Text Text This is R ose Hearn interviewing Mr. Sumner Beam in his h ome at 1 23 5 Ridge N orth , Ridgeway, Ontario, and the date is August 1 5 , 1'985. R.H: Good m orning . R.H: Could please give me the date of your birth? S.B: Obo;i t 's Oct ober the 9th , 1898. R.H: And where w ere you b orn? S.B: I w as born in m y grand father's, my grandm other's home on the N iagara Boulevard just above Black Creek, about 3 miles up Black Creek. R.H: And what w as your home like, could you take m e on a mem ory walk and des cribe what your home w as like? S.B: Well as far as I remember the first place m y father and m other rented was a farm on the Niagara Boulevard just north of my grandparents. We lived there, and w e used t o have w alk down the 25 foot bank in the wintert i m e , (and it w ould be m uddy, clay m ud) to g e t the water from the river, and when they'd bring a pail up , there'd b e ab out t w o inch es o f clay set t l e d i n t h e bot t om of t h e pail. R.H: What river w as that? S.B: N iagara River, and that river w as beauti ful at that t i m e . Th ere was no w ells to draw from you see. Th e w at er w e lls around that part w ould be sulphery and black. It w asn't good you see, it wasn't like the wat er here , and they used t o m e lt snow in the wintert i m e t o d o t h e washing. R.H: How did your m other d o the w ashing? S .B: Washboard and tub , and then they had a boiler that they put on the st ove. They put the soap in and boi led the clothes for a bit, the white clothes. R.H: Was it a c oal st ove, how did you heat . . . ? S.B: Well w ood and c oal. R.H: Wood and coal , that's h ow you got your heat , and that's how you heated your home t oo? S.B: Yeah , I w ould get up in the m orning and everything w ould be frozen. R.H: Where did you get the c oal from , did you get it delivered? S.B: I don't know just exactly where they did get it from , but I believe it w as Stevensville. They'd h ave to go to S t evensville for i t . Well then they moved from there to where the other side of w here my j (1) �grand father lived , and they lived there for a few years, and then they bought this farm on the town line from ••• oh what 's his name? I can't think of it right now. I w as j ust , w ell I guess I w as 5 years old then, and my brother was three. I remember them m oving in, and the mud w as 6 in ches deep coming through from the road , and the cooking st ove w as in three pieces you see. They t ook the feet off, and then the t op part of i t , the firebox, and then the other, and they slid that in on planks off the wagon and built the fire, and we kids roamed around the h ouse and we w ent up the back st airs and I got old-ti m e pen cils, wel l it w as a pen that you use ... well I still got it t oday ..• R . H: With an inkwell? S.B: Yeah , you take it and put it in a bot t le, ink i t , and you w rite for a bit and then you dip it again ... That 's where w e lived the rest of the ti me. R . H: That house now , did that have electri city? S.B: N o, It never had electri city. R . H: N ever had i t , so what did you use? S.B: The house was . .. w ell it w as like some of the h ouses here. They don't sit on the foundat ion, they sit off the foundat ion about 3 or 4 ft., and when the wind w ould b low you'd think you were on a boat rocking. Then my dad decided t hat he'd build i t , build over you see so the front part he turned it around , and m oved it back, and built on the fron t , and then he b uilt a small . .. he w as going to build a sm all piece on the back and then it ended up that he had a kit chen 12 by 24 for the kit chen. Then they had t w o bedrooms up above that. Well he never did get it finished as far as that goes. He had quite a time of it get ting the cement w all in. He dug i t out , (can you i m agine digging under the h ouse and throwing the ground out) and all that ground under the h ouse had t o be picked loose, and put on to a s c oop , (that's a metal thing that h orses w i ll pull) and one h orse w ould pull it out ,and t hey'd take it out and dump i t , and then he'd pull that back in, and p i ck it loose again. R.H: S.B: That's a lot of w ork. W ell then shortly after w e came there, (well they used w o od then not coal) they came through drilling gas-w ells you see, and there would be four people to each well. Two fello w s would w o rk in the ( 2) �daytime and t w o w ould w ork at night so they boarded at my dad's place but they w eren't drillling that w ell, they w ere drilling the w ell a half a mile w est o f us, and so when they struck gas why of course we had gas then in the h ouse. Gas for heating and everything. There w as no limit on the am ount of gas you could use, and of course a lot of it was w asted likely, ex cept there'd be no end to it. Well now t oday there's practi cally no gas there. Well there is a little, but nothing to speak of, but they never had electri city, no electri city at all. R.H: What about phones? S .B: Telephones? We had the old W elland C ounty Telephone, crank vacum . We were on the party line and there w as four or five in it, but before that the nearest phone was a m ile away and that was the Bell Telephone. R .H: Was that in a s t ore or som e thing? S .B: N o, in a farm home, and what 's his name? Glenny, he was the one that got it between him and ... R.H: Krieger? did you ever hear of a man called Krieger? S.B: Th ey had the telephone conne c t ed t o the fen ce, and they talked over the fence wire, one wire. R . H: That was Mr. Krieger I think, n o, it was Wrensch, somebody Wrens ch? S .B: N o. Wrens ch? Yeah they were further west then, Mrs. Wrens ch, and that road that ... R.H: Were you close neighbours t o Mrs. Wrensch? S .B: Oh i t w as just the ..• if you went by the road i t would be a m i le away that 's all. R.H: I see. N ow w as that near the Shipyards? S .B: Yeah , about a half a mile from t he Shipyards . That 's what they called the Sumner Road, and that should never have been Sumner R oad , it should have been Wrens ch R oad and kept as Wrensch R oad. It runs from Ridgem ount , no .•. N e therby R oad over t o C ollege S treet , and that's as far as the road goes. R.H: S.B: Oh yeah , we was only about 3 m i les or so. R.H: Thre e miles? The Glenny's w ere closer I believe ? S.B: I So you w ere pret ty close to the Shipyards then, your farm ? The Glenny's and ••. that's when my m e m ory slips me sometimes when l try t o think of a name , but anyway they used t o t alk over (3) �the telephone and then they got the telephone going. When they got i t going why they m oved i t to ( .•. the o f fi ce int o S t evensville whi ch is where Miller and what's that insuran ce company? Miller and •• • the insurance company in Stevensville right across ••. well there's a bank on one side, the Bank o f Com merce and then Miller's up there, you see ..• real estate or car insuran ce. Any w ay my aunt had the office there for t ransferring t o get on t o the Bell Telephone and dif ferent places for a number of years. R.H: S.B: She had the office, did she? The offi ce? yeah , and she w ould do her w ork and then the teleph one w ould ring and she'd have to run and grab the w i re and put it in the plug. R.H: Was she the operat or t oo? S.B: She was the operat or. R . H: What was her name? S.B: Grant, Mrs. Grant. R . H: Mrs. Grant? S.B: She was the operator, and I guess they operated it day and nigh t, but there wasn't the calls like there w ere now you see. { R . H: So do you know anything ab out the Shipyards? S.B: Well I kno w a lit tle ab out it. I worked there for a while there. R . H: D idn't they build a c ouple of boat s there? S.B: They built six b oat s I think. They built the N orth and S outh A m erica. They w ere small boats, and they built . . . the first b oat that they built w as the (I think it was the first one) the E . B . Osler. That 's the biggest boat that was sailing on the Great Lakes. R.H: D i d you w ork on that? S.B: I didn't w ork on that one, no. R.H: What did you do at the shipyards? S.B: Well I w as a mechani cs helper at the time that I w o rked there, but I w as w orking on the sm aller boats and I w as there when they launched the big boats you see , the E . B. Osler. R.H: Oh w ere you S.B: They had a big picnic that day when they launched it you kno w . R.H: And did they launch it with the champagne? S.B: Yeah they did that and they had a big ribbon on there , and some ••• ? of them w ere going t o cat ch som e of the champagne from it. (4) �It's quit e a thing to see them . . . they had them logs, them big heavy timbers and they were all greased w ith what they called so ft soap, ( and it is slippery. R.H: For it to slide d o w n? S.B: For it to slide down in, and they had great big t i mbers there and there was a rope arranged to h old it. They h old by block to h old it in place, and a feller w as standing there w ith a big broad-axe, (the axe w ould be about a foot across you know) and when they were get ting ready for t o laun ch why they blew the whistle and he came down with the axe, and cut the ropes, and the b oat kinda sat there for a sec ond , and then they had j acks and they kinda m oved a little bit, and she started to slide in. She slid in that, and she droppe d into the w ater, and she rolled over on her side like that and back up, and th ere w as a w ave there of about 2 feet of w ater that w e nt up on the land and there w as fish ... p e ople w ere racing all through the w ater to get the fish and stuff that w as w ashed up on sh ore, and then it s e t tled back, rocked back and forth, and they put a ladder to it and w ent up to see if there was any leaks or anything in it. That w as an ex citing tim e for us. R.H: Wh o w o uld laun ch it, w ould it be the Mayor or s o m e one ? S.B: N o,I think the com pany would. R.H: ( Yeah but didn't they have some i mportant person there to swing this bot t le? S .B: Oh they'd have som eone important, som e head ones from the company you see but that was the first boat. They had to dredge the slip out and they had to dredge the river out because the channel of the river w as on the A m eri can side and they had to dredge that out so that the boat could go out that w ay and then get into the channel , and turn and go up there. The reason they didn' t carry it on much longer w as because the sand w ould w ash in the pla ce, and then they'd have to dredge it out again and it cost so much t o dredge the canal. You see the river flo w s this w ay and the channel w ent right across. Well the sand w ould dri ft in and fill right in and level you see, so that's what stopped them Well then they kind of w ent broke I think on that. R.H: ( What kind of boat w as it ? S.B: Was it a passenger N o , no a big freighter. (5) • •• ? �R.H: Freighter? S.B: Y e s a big freighter. R.H: So it t ook a lot of goods and everything S.B: It took a good am ount o f steel. All that bending of the steel w as ••• ? all d one by hand you kno w , it w as not pressed out . They beat the plate and they'd ham m e r it till they swung it to the form that they h ad t o put it on you see, and when I w orked there they started the first electri c welding and they said " oh that w ouldn't stand up at all , it w ould break loose and that and the other thing " and they had a lot o f us scared t o go near it because there was so much electri c there. They had the generat or up there running, and t oday if they w ere building it they'd put it in a press and they'd bend i t . And even then when they had their big 6 or 8 inch pipes in there for circulat ion ( I don't what they w ere for) they'd bend them and they'd fill them with sand , and then they'd heat it till it was red h ot , and then they'd plug the end of the p ipe and lay it on a plat form and have stakes on here, and they'd bring it around and then i f they wanted t o turn it the other way they'd have a stake and they'd bend it that way. It was all d one by hand, and when they did get it d one ( it was perfect. It went ri ght int o place you see and the sand would keep it from bending in. It w ould h old i t . The sand had to be dry, i t c ouldn't have any water in it because if it did i t would create st eam you see, and when they g ot it bent to what they wanted ( the pattern ) well they'd li ft i t up , drop the sand out , and tap it out , and that w as i t . R.H: Do you kno w how much you got paid for doing all this? S.B: Oh the paym ent was nothing. I f orge t what w age it was, something like 35 cents or something like that . R.H: 3 5 cents an h our? S.B: 3 5 cents an h our or som e thing like that. The w ages w asn't nothing but then there w as no other w ork you se e. R.H: What about the hours, w ere they longer h ours then than they are no w ? S.B: h ours, ten hours. R.H: Ten h ours a day? S.B: ( Ten I worked on the railroad for a dollar an h our. R.H: You worked on the railroad? S.B: Oh fixing up their track, and putting ties What did you do on the (6) railroad ? in and stuff you kno w, �and changing the rails. Sometimes there 'd be a broken rail, and you ' d have to go to the ..• we used to h ave the st ore-clerk keep a rail or t w o on hand , and then w e 'd have to lift them up and that rail w ould be 3 2 feet long, and i t w ould be a lOOlbs to the yard you see, and three o f us would h ave t o lift that up and on to the handcar, and push it down t o where we w anted it and ••• R.H: Is that the lit tle hand car that you use t o go d o w n the tracks? S.B: Y eah , it w ould be up and down. R.H: I kno w there w as some kind of a strike on the railroad , do you kno w anything about i t ? S.B: N o there w as no strike that I kno w about . I w orked on the N iagara Branch and that .•. well they used to call t hat Paddy Miles, the train that run from Fort Erie to Niagara-On-The-lake you see. R.H: They called it the Paddy. . . ? S .B: The Paddy Miles Train. R.H: The Paddy Miles Train? Did you know any of the engineers at all ? S.B: N o,I never got t o know them . Black Creek then had a post-office there you see, and they used t o get the mail, they got the let ters that cam e in there, and they'd carry it from the post-office t o ( meet t h e train, and throw it on t h e train and i f they had any mail there they'd throw i t off, and bring it down to the post-offi ce. I got the post-offi ce box, that 's the one in the greenery. R.H: When you lived on the farm , did you get m ail delivery or did you have to go and pick it up ? S .B: Well we had .•• the m ail came in at Black Creek, and w e'd get the Welland paper once a week, and w e'd h ave to w alk to Black Creek. It'd be oh about a mile and a hal f from S i x Mile Creek to Black Creek, and oh it w as years before the m ail • •. w e ll the m ail i f I remember right ly, it w as j ust shortly be fore the w ar st art ed that they s t art ed the m ail rout e through. R.H: Where did you st art school? S.B: Black C re e k S chool on the Niagara Boulevard . It's torn a w ay no w . It w as just a one room schoolhouse , and w h e n I st art ed (I think I w as eight before I st art ed school) my c ousin ••• m y dad o w ned a farm , and m y uncle had a farm above hi m , and m y other uncle farmed belo w him , and the one belo w him (my cousins) they had a pie ce o f prop e rt y up about a mile from their uncles, and they used t o (7) _ �t ake the cattle up that w ay and then they'd w alk across and go to school and that's w ere they used t o pasture the cattle in the sum m e rtim e , and they w e re the first ones that took m e t o school. ( R.H: Was that quit e a w ays t o go for you, m aybe? S.B: Oh what w ould it be? Oh we'd w alk about 3 m iles that w ay. It w as 2 m iles t o the schoolhouse and the roads w e ren't opened in the w intert i m e and w e 'd have snow up to our w aist. R . H: Y ou w alked in the wint e rtime? S.B: Oh yeah , w e w alked t o school . W e w alked down the road , and the snowbanks. . . w e 'd have t o craw l through the snowbanks, and g e t t o the railroad track where it w ould b e b e t t e r w alking , and w alk down the railroad 'til we got t o the back to where the sch ool was and then era w 1 through the wire fences, and w alk back t o the school. R . H: And when you got in the school , w e ren't you c old or w e t or. . . ? S.B: N o, of course they had a big st ove there i f you .. . no w e w e ren ' t w e t , w e al w ays w ore good cloth es t o k e e p the w e t off. R.H: But they had a st ove in the classroom? S.B: Oh right in the one big room . Y ou w ent in the doorway, and there w as the entran c e w ay, and on one sid e they had a pile of w ood , and on the oth er side they had a pail of water the children could ( get a drink if they wan t e d it. On the other sid e of that was the cloakroom where the girls staye d , and on the oth e r side was the cloakroom where the boys stayed , and then the classes and stove in the middle. If it got t oo cold f or the ones on the outsi d e , why the t e a cher w ould bring them in and l e t th e m stand by the st ove 'til they got w arm , and then they'd go b a c k. Oh , we didn't m ind it. D o you rem e m b e r your t e a chers? R.H: Well som e of them. My first t e a<;::h er w as a Miss D ell from Chipp a w a. S.B: Well, there w as a t i m e when it w as dif fi cult to get teachers t o c o m e there b e c ause they w eren't paying t h e w ages that they are t oday. Six hundred dollars a year for t e a ching, and they had t o i stand their o w n boarding. They boarded w i th t h e schoolhouses you se e and them being in the c ountry t o o you see , it w as hard to get them . In the wintert i m e there'd be about forty in the school, and then in the sum mert i m e there 'd be t w enty five m aybe . . . m aybe fourteen fi fteen, depends you see . Some of them w ere the Bernardo \ boys that came from . . . (8) �R.H: D o you kno w anything about the Bernardo boys? S.B: Oh, I don't kno w , I just know there w as so m e Bernardo's but there ( w as . . . well the ones I kne w ••• the last one that I think that I kno w o f just passed a w ay about a ye ar ago, Freddy Fear. R.H: And they were brough t over from England and . . . ? S.B: England. R.H: And they were adopted? S.B: Well they just . . . they weren't adopted, they w ere taken in t o the homes and they w ere clothed and sent to school , but they were only sent to school in the wintertime, and in the sum mert i m e they kept them on the farm . R . H: They w orked the farm ? S .B: W orking on the farm, you see. They w orked them too, and their legi ti mate boys t ook it easy all the time. R.H: And the lit tle Bernardo boys ..• I've heard about them and that 's an interesting subj ect, isn't it? S .B: I don't know all of them , but i f m y sister was here she could name some of them ri gh t off. I don' t rem ember. R . H: ( So that was your s chool then and it w as only a one room s choohouse. . . ? S.B: Eight years is all I went t o s ch ool. I never went t o hi gh sch ool to get my diploma. R . H: Y ou didn't? S.B: Some of them did, and some of them didn ' t . D ella you know, she did and she was . . . well I d on't know how she ever got t o the ••. R .H: That don't mean anything, does it? Did you do a lot of chores then? S.B: Oh , not too much . I had calves and pi gs t o f e e d , a little like that. There w as haying, and t aking care of the crops in the sum mert i m e . It i s f a r dif ferent t oday than it w as then. It w as all hand w ork you se e . R.H: You didn't have the m a chines then at all S.B: They didn't have no combines, no balers, and nothing like that. ••• ? They had their balers t o bale up c o m m ercial, but t o t ake them in the fields, they didn't. All the farm ers h ad w as a •• • they had a plough , and a disc and harro w , and probably a cultivat or, and a m o w er, and a w agon, and a binder, that's all the m a chines they had. That's if they had the full equipment. Some o f them didn't l have all that , and they'd get their neighbour to come and do the w ork. Well, they w ere neighbours at that tim e , b e c ause i f they (Bl ·� �w ere stuck w i th the w ork, and the other neighbour w as ahe ad , he'd come over and he'd help you, and i f you offered t o pay him you'd o f fend h i m . They didn't w ant any pay at all, not like t oday, you can't hardly hire them to com e , you se e . R . H: What did . you have, m aybe t w o horses, w as that a t e a m ? S.B: A t eam o f h orses. R . H: And w ould that be t w o, a team w ould be like t w o? S.B: Two, a t eam of h orses w ould be t w o, but somet i m es they w ould be three. One w ould be the driving h orse f or the .•. to go to the st ore somet i m es, you see. Well the team h orses w ould be the heavy t ype, real heavy, but the driving h orses w ould be what you have t oday, like the riding horses you see. D ad had the three h orses, he had the . . . the t eam w as •.. well t w o mat ched , but one w as a lit tle heavier than the other, and the one had been a riding h orse, and she w as kinda tri cky t o handle. You never knew when she w as going to jump aside of one or the other, and the old h orse, he w as j ust like an old o xen. You would take him up the road, and he had flat feet , great big . . . flat footed you kno w and if there w as a stone in .. ' ( the road he'd step onto it, and then he'd inj ure his foot, and then he'd be li mping. Many a time he got a piece o f gravel on the bot t o m o f h i s foot , and w e got t o dig it out because h i s foot w as get ting sore, and m other and dad w ould go up to see their . . . my dad's brother and sist er-in-law and they'd dri ve like from 2 m i les below S t evensville up to Welland. They'd go up there and they'd si t around 'til maybe 10 oclock, and then they'd come h om e and they'd put us kids in front of the buggy, and the robe w as ove r t op of it· (there w as j ust the t w o of us) and the lantern sat d o w n bet w een them , and that would thro w a little bit of heat you se e , and if they needed any light they'd c ould lift it up and se e , and they'd get in that buggy, and then they st art for h o m e , and then both o f them w ould drop asleep , and the old horse w ould just plug right along and he'd hit the culve rts w h i ch would be boards, and they'd w ake up and se e w here they w e re , and he'd be in the centre o f the road. He w ouldn't get o f f the road , h e 'd j ust plug right along the centre o f the road , and one t i m e h e came in, and w ent in the drive w ay, and w ent right out to the barn, and both of the m w e re asle ep, the whole four o f ( u s w e re asleep and t h e y w ondered w h y t h e h orse w asn't going any (9) �further, and here w e w e re st anding at the barn door. But then the roads w e re all m ud, there w as no st one on t op, n o roads at all. Well, the first st one road that w as through w as the .•• they had the Bowen R oad, and then the Garrison R o ad w as st oned a little, that w as all. R . H: Did you have a blacksmith then t o o? S .B: Yes, we used t o go t o • .• he w as the bla cksm ith in N e w Germ any about thre e miles up and he'd sh oe the horses. In the wintertime he used to have to put the c orks sharp you see, so that i f the horse stepped on the i ce it w ould chisel in you see, , and I think the last time I rem em ber dad going, he w as gro w ling about the pri ce of get ting on the shoes. They would charge a dollar a shoe then t o put new corks on. They're w elded on you see, and they buy these little short corks, and there 's a lit tle prong on it, and he'd get that , and that w ould st i c k int o it, then he'd heat the m et al 'til it w as spit ting, and then he'd t ap that, and it w ould w eld ri ght to the shoe you see. He w ent and t ook a load of hay out t o Fort Erie that year, and he had sharp shod on the h orses, and every time they'd st art to chisel int o the i ce. You know, by the time they got back from Fort Erie, they were dull, no good at all. The horses couldn't st and, they'd ( slip and slide all over. He said "That's t errible, that w as those bad roads". R . H: S o did you t ake your farm produce t o sell in Fort Erie? S.B: Oh, m other used t o , in the sum mert i m e. We used t o raise garden st u f f , and t ake it int o Fort Eri e . Well, there used to be a . . . C ozy D ell w as a set tlement of A m eri cans, and they had six or eight cust o m ers that w as buying what they w ant, and they w ould come in there with their w agon full of radishes, and carrots, and b e e ts, and corn , and p e as, and be ans. Why , they'd clam mer all over for i t , and then they'd w ant but ter and e ggs, h o m e m ade but t er, they didn't w ant the fact ory but ter, not on a b e t . One w o m an, she t alked to m other and she w as •• • II?-other j ust m ade the but ter in pound rolls you se e . . . there was a press that you c ould put the but t e r in, and press it out into one pound pie ces, you see. Well, this w om an, she w anted a m old that w ould have a sheaf of wheat on it or something to make it fancy, and mother said She was growling "I haven't got time to bother with that". at father, so mother reached over and took the butter, and put it in the basket and says "you'll have to get somebody else". (10) �Well then they'd go t o the st ore , and drive into Fort Erie. R.H: ( To the South End or the N orth End? S.B: To the N orth End , Bridgeburg was the N orth End. It w as changed •.• w e ll, in my time it w as called Vi ct oria, but they soon changed it to Bridgeburg. They'd com e up Jarvi s Street , the R oyal H ot e l w as there then, and a lot of the st ores along there w ere all vacan t , and then where that? .• . what's Well, where that big fire was here a c ouple of years ago. It b urned som e of it down. R.H: R ossman's? S.B: R ossman's. That was a big pond of wat e r w i th gre en scum over i t . In the sum m e rti m e i t w as t e rrible, and up a little bit further w as a w ooden structure , and the Chinese had a restaurant there. Y ou used t o walk up four or five st eps ont o this plat form , they made it level, and go into the restaurant and get a cup of coffee or som e thing. Th e grocery st ore was C . W. Ve Hey, he had a general store there, and it wasn't a sel f-serv i c e . You b ought t h e stu f f b y asking h i m for i t , and he w ent and got i t . R.H: S .B: ( Did they have sid e w alks? N o side walks. R.H: W ere they w ooden or... ? S.B: Well, it w ould be cinders or gravel. Som e places had t o have w ood but . . . and then they had hit ching posts where they could tie the h orse s up. B u t m ost o f t h e m used t o t ake t h e horses t o t h e livery stable at the hotels. R.H: Was there one behind t h e King E d w ard H ot e l? S .B: The one that m other used t o go t o w as the one facing the railroad tracks. I forgot what they called that now , but any w ay this had the stable there, and f or 25 cents the feller w ould put the horse in, t i e it up , and it would be under shelter from the rain or cold or anything like that. When they w e re ready t o go home she 'd go over, and he'd back the horse up , and ... R.H: Did they water and feed them? S.B: S o m e did, but som e ti m e s they'd t ake a little pan o f oats along so the horse would h ave som e thing t o e at. There w as big potholes on J arvis Stre e t full of w at er, and you'd rack into that , and back into the other side . ( R.H: Was there ever a t ype of quarry on Jarvis S tree t ? (11) �S.B: Well, that might have been where the pond w as. R.H: (Wh ere 's the place w e re they used t o smuggle Chinese people ?) ( [The question was asked by Mr. Beams daught e r-in-la w ] D o you know anything about the Chinese smuggling ? S.B: N o, I d on't know . I d on't know t oo m u ch about that . There w as a st ory about that . They had m aple trees set out along the street, you see, and then the clothing st ores, they had their • •. w ell, their gingham and cot t on was all in big b olts, and you'd go in and get so m any yard s of this, and so m any yards of that , and he'd m easure it out on the c ounter for you. R.H: Wh o w as the guy that ow ned this st ore, do you know? S.B: I was just trying t o think of what his nam e w as . . . i t ' s on the end of the tip of my t ongue .• . I'll think of i t later. R.H: What about Erie Beach, do you know anything on Erie Beach? S.B: Well, n ot t oo m u ch, but Erie Beach w as bigger t han Crystal Beach at one time, and they had a train that ran from the ferry dock at Fort Erie, at the south part of F ort Erie ri ght by . . . R.H: A gret te's? Is that the one that ran from A gret te's? S.B: R ight from the ( ..• well, there was a grocery st ore now on the river side, but the boat used t o pull in, and then the current w ould back i t down t o where they could unload the wagons and stuff. They'd take hay over across to Buf falo, and well, somet i m es they'd get their coal and st u f f and bring it across from over there. R.H: But Erie Beach w as quite S.B: Erie Beach was, but I was only on ce to Erie Beach so I don't know a big thing then, right? t oo much about i t . I don't know what w ent w rong with it but it j ust petered ri ght out in no time at all , and C rystal B e a ch w ent ahe ad and it t ook all the trade from i t . R.H: There w as the Bertie Fair, do you know anything about that ? S.B: The Bertie Fair? Well, that ran ••• the Farmers Associati on, agri cultural , used to have fairs up at Guelph , and they used t o go up there and they'd get spe cial rat es t o go t o the fair on the t rain up t o Gue lph . There 'd be an excursion in the m orning that w ould t ake people up , and then at six or seven o' clock, why-they'd c o m e back down, and people w ould com e back on i t . Th e y had the Fair at the Race track up until ••• ( there ••• but I don't re member too much about that , as I w as never well, I guess it w as once that I was there. (12) �I know I got questi ons t oo over the racing. I used t o like t o wat ch the h orses you kno w , racing. My folks said " That's enough of that, ( you don't wanna get m i xed up in that " . R.H: It's nice i f you just g o and wat ch and not spend your m oney, righ t ? S.B: Well, we never had any m oney t o spend as far a s that g oes. R.H: Do you know anything about the fire in Ridgew ay ? S.B: N o, but I remember someone telling m e about i t , but I don't remember the fire. R.H: Do you know anything about the Fire D epart m ent itsel f , h ow it start ed ? S.B: Well, let's see, I w as 1 6 years old when my dad h ad t o go t o Ridgeway to where the cem etary is and get gravel , get a yard of gravel , and w e' d drive up in the m orning, in the wintert i m e, and they'd have t o pick the gravel loose. It w ould freeze along the side of the bank, they'd load it on t o the sleigh , and then they had t o come up a hill t o get to the road, and some of the h orses wasn ' t able to pull a yard of gravel up there, and the dif ferent teams w ould unhook and they'd put a chain on and help each one up 'til they got out, you see. They'd say " Well , you help me and I'll help you " . A ft er we got out then we'd come h ome. We'd come down through here, [Mr. Beam means the area of Ridge R oad N orth where he lives] and the road w ould ( have four or five feet of snow, and then there'd be places where you'd dip in and out , and places where you'd slide sideways over on up. There is no c omparison t o what the roads are t oday. Y ou'd slide back and forth with the team , and in some places you'd go over t op of the fences with the snowbank, int o the field. Then of course you'd turn and come back out again, maybe at the gat e, at the other end of the field on t o the road , and go down t o the road . We'd leave down home there at . . . well, it w as about seven o' clock, and we w ouldn't get back 'til five that evening . It w ould be bit t er cold , and som eti mes it w ould be starting t o snow and blow you kno w . We'd think it w as going t o be a nice day and we'd get started early, and then it'd come up blowing snow . It's about all you could do to get through with a team of h orses, and then that gravel had to b e unloaded that nigh t , because if it didn ' t , it w ould a l l freeze solid, and you c ouldn't p i c k it loose. So aft er w e 'd get i n , w e generally h a d t o get o ur supper, and go out and unlo ad that load of gravel. ( R.H: (Do you re m ember anything about the first Fire Depart m ent ? ) The question w as asked b y Mr. B e am 's daughter-in-l a w . (13) �S.B: R.H: ( The first one ? N o. I guess it was all volunteer then, w as it ? S.B: Oh , I think likely it w as all volun t e er. It could be all volunt eers. R .H: I was j ust w ondering how they put out fires b e f ore they had all their fan cy equipment. I've heard about the bucket brigad e , have you? S.B: They had pails, and then they had t anks of water that they put up . R.H: D i d they keep tanks of water ready for . . . ? S.B: N o, they'd have th ose tanks that they could fill up w ith water you see, and I know some of them used t o have . . . on the threshing out fits they used t o have a pump that w ould pump w ater pret ty fast you see , t o fill up a tank of w ater f or the threshing industry, and they'd get a pump like that, and they'd fill up the tanks and they'd get them over t o the fire and . . . R.H: I guess everybody w ould help one another, right? S.B: Th ey w ere careful of fire s, m ore s o then than they are t oday. R.H: Did your fam ily have an i cebox? S.B: N o. R.H: Oh! How did you preserve your f ood? S.B: Some of them did, some of them didn't. They used t o put up a building of about 14 feet square, something like that, and line it with sawdust, ( and the boards on the out side w ould make it airtight, and then they'd go to the river in the w intertime when the i ce w ould be ei ght in ches and just clear, and they'd saw these chunks of i ce out, and flow them over t o sh ore, and then had the horse with a grapple that w ould grapple it and pull it up on the sh ore, and then they'd pi ck them cakes up . They'd be t w o feet square, and eight in ches thi ck, you had t o be care ful, and you had t o wat ch your fingers because m any of them got their fingers smashed b e t w e en the i ce you se e, and they'd bring them h om e , and then log them int o the i cehouse, pack them as tight as you could pack them t ogether, and then put saw dust on t op of i t , and the ne xt day go back, and get a c ouple of m ore loads, and bring it and pack that in. In the sum m erti m e you just brushed your saw dust a w ay and got your chunks of i c e out , put it in a ••• R.H: S.B: It w ould last all sum m e r, last all summer. R.H: ( Oh! it last ed for quite a while, did i t ? That's amazing isn't S.B: Down at the townline at Netherby Road at the Black Creek, my it? (14) �aunt h ad a hired hand as my uncle w as w orking in Buffalo. They had a hired m an t o do the chores, and they had an i cehouse , and they w e re filling i c e , they were cutting i t , and they had som ething ( like a cultivator that had teeth in it, and you'd draw it along and it w ould cut so deep , and then you'd keep on cut ting you see. Y ou'd do it that w ay with the h orse, and then the other w ay, you'd use it to saw , and it looked like a big cross-cut saw , and saw i t . Then this feller step s on the i ce, and he w ent down int o the, under the i ce, in the cakes, and he struck the bot t om of the creek, and he gave h i m self a boost, and he came up . The grabbed him and pulled him out of the w ater, and laid h i m in the w agon, and covered him over with the blanket s that they put on the h orses when they were loading the i c e wh ile they were waiting. Took him h ome, and they had to saw the clothes off of him as they w ere froze by the time they got hom e, you know . He didn't have any ill ef fec t of it at all. R.H: They didn't have the h ospital then, did they? S.B: N o, no. R.H: So what did they do, did they get the doct or? S.B: N o, t hey didn't bother w ith the doctor at all, he come out without any t rouble at all , you know. He just went down, and he boun ced ( right up, and they grabbed him qui c k you see. They had it as a joke for while. Bet ty said he took an early spring bath. But the ice will stay w ay 'til O c t ober i f it's all packed in there t i ght. They used to do that on the railroads at the big i ceh ouses . R.H: What did they use the i cehouses f or? S.B: Well, for their cars that ... the c old st orage cars which they have now , there's a unit in there which keeps it cold, but then they used to have i ce in it you see, for peri shable produce that they had . They didn't know , but w h e n you built a n i c ehouse , i n thre e o r four ye ars, you'd have to build it over again b e cause the ice w ould rot the building you se e , but those w h o sold milk, and dairy produce , and cream , and stuff like that , they needed t o have i c e t o keep the stu f f cold. R.H: Did you have your own milk on the farm ? Did you know any of the dairi e s ? S.B: ( No. We generally kept Jersey c o w s because they give rich milk you see , but w e did put ice in one year, but it w as too much bother. (15) �R.H: Have you ever he ard of a medicine m an that travelled around here ? S.B: There used to be a lot of peddlars c om e through , but I d on't re m e mber any m edicine m an . I know some of them w ould carry a lot of novelty ( things, and then they w ould have cert ain antique bottles that w as supposed t o be good stu f f . R.H: C ures, like the eli xer of life? S.B: Wel l , it w asn't exactly a cure, and it w asn't . . . but there w as a lot of. Polish, I believe they were P olish , or Hungarians that used t o •. come through with b i g bolts o f cloth , and s o on, cutting through the m ud and .• . R.H: D i d you have any Gyp sies ? S.B: Gyp sies ? Oh yeah . R.H: Did they tell your fortune? S.B: Oh they w ould, but w e never w anted them near the place. R.H: But there w as qui te a few Gyp sies around ? S.B: Oh yes, there w as Gyp sies. They w ere raised on trading h orses , and you never knew when they'd c ome through. They'd s t op on a side road you see, and they'd camp for the night. Well, the people around w ould generally have som eone s t ay up, because they'd go int o the barn and they'd steal oat s, or the w ater for the horses you ( know. They'd w ant t o trade h orses you know , and you'd trade w i t h them , a n d they'd get t h e best o f you ' cause they h a d their h orse doct ored up to be number one, and when all the dope and stuff had w orn off of it, why, he w as j ust nothing but an old plug , he was no good at all. Then they sold tinw are, . plat es, and cups, and things like that . R.H: What about the D epression, how did that affect Bertie Tow nship ? S.B: O h , I can't say that it •• . it did a little. R eally, I w asn' t here at the t i m e of the D epression. R.H: Y ou were a missionary I believe , w as that during the First W orld W ar, or before the w ar? S.B: That w as after the w ar. In the D epression . . . w e ll, there w as no w ork, there w as no w ork around here at all t o d o, and I w ent down in the States t o w ork on a farm there . I w orked on a farm here, one year. Well anyw ay, that w as after the railroad qui t , se e , and you got $40 ••• no, w e 'd get $10, $10 a m onth and your board , and what's $10 a m onth? (16) �R.H: This was the farm here? S.B: On the farm here. I went down to the States, and got and my board, and I worked there for a c oup le ( Dep res sion hit I w a s $40 a month, of years. When the down in S outh America th en . R . H: S o you w ere a missionary then ? S.B: Yeah . R . H: You w eren't here during the war then either? S.B: Well, during the w ar I w as h om e. I was in the draft in the First World War, the 19 year old draft you see. My un cle was an offi cer in the 44th Regi ment, and he wanted me to get in the arm y, and the arm y didn't appeal to m e, not one bit . I didn't w ant any part, nor lot with it, and when the war w as on they used t o have s oldiers riding along the N iagara B oulevard, but on bicy cles you see. There'd be t w o and three g o along at night you kno w , day and night they pat rolled along there. We used t o go d o w n t o the camp, and they had a st ockade place at Chippawa, and w e used t o go d o w n there and listen t o them talk, and one thing and another. S om e o f the b oys w ere just as s cared as they c ould be you kno w . Well, you never knew i f someone m ight be laying for them or s o m ething. When I turned 19 years old, I had t o report then t o the go vernm ent you see, to register for the 19 year old draft . I registered, and then I got notice I had t o carry this paper on me at all t i m es because I c ould be picked up any time, and you w eren't free to go any place much then. You had to be careful where you w ent, and of c ourse that w as in O ct ober, and in N ovember the Armist i ce was si gned . It was only about t w o or three w eeks after that, that they cancelled everything. Well, then you had m ore libert y then. R.H: So then you w ent overseas? S.B: N o, I never got in the army . R.H: N o, I'm t alk ing about the missionary field, did you go overseas? S.B: Oh yeah, I was I was 19 or 20 in missionary w ork . in New York State, and Michigan State, and then I went down to South America. what years old when I was I went down there, and that's were you learn you never knew before . R.H: S.B: ( What was it like down there? The country is beautiful, beautiful, but boy oh boy, the people R.H: Are they very poor? S.B: Oh, it's poor as poor as Jerbs turkeys, they say you know. ••• (17) ••• They're �and they' re backwards, qu ite a bit backwards ... oh they're kind as can be. They' r e the essence of k indne s s , and then there's others that w ill rob you sooner than look at you, but I never had any trou ble . ( R.H: H o w long were you there ? S.B: A bout five years, and then I c a m e back and got married and settled down. That w as the end of my travelling days . R.H: Y ou d idn' t s tay a m is s ionary then, you got out of that? S.B: No, I didn't do any more m iss ionary w o r k . R.H: S o what d i d y o u do t h e n , did y o u get anothe r j o b? S.B: W ell, I started in far m ing. I should never have done it , I should have left the far m ing alon e. I far m e d 200 a c r e s , I rented the far m and it only cost m e $ 2 0 0 . 0 0 a y e a r t o rent t h e fa r m w ith a house t o live in . Th e last year that I far m e d I had a good crop of oats and e veryth ing , and I wanted to sell them be cause I had a note c o m ing due for the t rac t o r , and one th ing and another, and I wanted 1 5 cents a bushel for th em. Imag ine 1 5 cen t s a bushel, wh ich is three dollars a bushel now , or better . . .I wanted 1 8 cents and I had to take 1 5 cent s . When I got everyth ing s t r a igh tened up that I wanted that year , I had about 1 5 cents left to myself for the w in t e r . We h a d co w s and w e had ch ickens . W e had bunch of P lylT'outh R o c k , ( and Wh ite Rock chickens , a n d t h e y w e re jus t co m ing nice i n t o lay ing when s o m ebody came in and stole th e m all. They took them all a w ay. I had a few L eghorns , and they d idn't want the L eghorns . . . they wanted the White Rock and they took the m . They went to Niagara F alls , New Y o r k , and w e r e sold on the market . They stole them at n igh t , and by the next morning they w e r e o n t h e marke t . R.H: D id you ever find out who d id it? S.B: Never found out . R.H: Who enforced the law then, I mean who did you call when th is happene d ? S.B: Well, w e could call the police you know, you could call the m , but what could they do ? R.H: There was a police force here ? S.B: Oh yeah , there was police around. R.H: I i m ag ine there wasn't too many though , was there ? S.B: Well, they didn't pat rol the country then like they do now , and I got a chance then to get a job in F o r t E r ie w ith a plu m be r . I wo rked there for 10 years, and that's when I though t , when I go into far m ing (18) �again, I'll get a better pr ice for my stuff. I worked there for 10 years, and I s t ill held the far m , because it was cheap rent . I had another feller that was living in town, and h e couldn't stay away ( from the booze , so he said "I'll go out to your plac e , and I'll do the ch ores in the m orning". A t that time I had 2 1 pigs that I was fattening and six cows , and ch ickens. Then you' d get up in the morning and get the chores done , and get into work for 7 o'clock. You had to get up early, and I said, "It's the sa me th ing when you co m e home at night". So h e said , "He liked t o c o m e out to the country and get away from that" so h e said, "I'd work prac tically for nothing . You g ive me t en dollars a week and that'll be fine , " so I d i d . In the m eantime I sokd the pigs, and made a lit tle out of the pigs, and I wanted t o sell the cattle , but the moochers could c o m e in and they' d say , " D o you want to sell t h e m" and I ' d say"Y eah , but I don't w ant t o give t h e m away " . Finally , the landlord says "I' m making s ome changes now , and you'll have to t r y and look for another plac e " . "Well " , I said "I can' t do it now because I can't turn the s t ock o u t , I got to keep the m in for the winter". I had hay and stuff in t h e r e , and that w e nt on for a few weeks, and my uncle was the assessor ( h e r e for B e r t ie To w nship , and he says . . . R.H: H e was w hat ? S.B: H e was the assessor and he says . . . m y aunt and uncle had bought t h is plac e , ( Mr. Beam means the home h e is living in now ) and they had a place down on the Bowen Road were the highway tracks is , and t h ey had a brand new house and every t h ing, and the railroad was going to e xpand, and they had to sell it to the railroad . H e didn' t want t o sell under any consideration, b u t h e h a d t o , a n d h e ca m e up h ere and h e bough t this plac e . W ell, part of the house was never finished. They lived in these three roo m s , and the roo m u pstair s . There was only the four o f the m , then my aunt died , and my cousin, she was a school t eacher, and the boy, he didn't do anything much . . . Well, he did most of the work around the house. He was a good baker, and h e could bake pies , and cake s , professionally . My uncle , he got s ick and died, and m y cousin h e married, anda h is w ife took him u p to Delhi. That only left m y one cous in here w ith the place, and she didn't want it , so she w anted to sell it. M y other uncle told me, and I w e n t u p to s e e her a n d we made a deal, and I bought it . That was in 1949. (19) �R.H: S.B: Eveley, James Eveley . R. H: E veley ? H e w as the tax assessor then ? S.B: ( What was your uncles name ? Yeah, and he d idn't get nowheres near t h e wages that they get now . A fter he quit it , they pretty near t r ipled the w ages . H e had everyth ing in nu m ber one shape and he had a typewriter. . .I've got the typew riter in the bedroom now, that he used, that h e typed everything out on s o there' d be no iffs or ands about it . Anyway, we bough t the plac e , and the w ife was k ind of anx ious to get a place so we'd have it when w e got older. We bought this plac e , and that's as far as w e move d . W h e n I m o v e d u p here y o u couldn't h ire anybody to h e l p y o u . You couldn't get any help lugging stuff s ix m iles through mud road s , so m e o f the mud roads and stuff. I s a i d " N e v e r again, that's it , when I m ove f r o m h e r e they're gonna carry me away 'cause that ' ll be the end of it " . R.H: W h er e d id you do your shopping, d i d you go to downtown R idgeway ? S.B: O h , F o rt E r ie w as mostly . . . ! never l iked R idgeway , and I'll tell you the r eason why . I got a 1 9 1 4 car, and you know what you do when you get a car, you get buy ing gas . I was runn ing low on gas, and ( I stopped at s e veral places in R idgeway, and they said "Don't you know that this is Sunday , and there ' s no gas sold on Sunday " . Well, I said "They do it in other places " . " W ell, they don't do it h e r e " t h e y s a i d . I th ough t , that's it , enough of R idgeway . I d o n ' t re m e m ber now the places I stopped at , but they gave m e a lecture because it was Sunday afternoon. Most everybody that had a car would go for rides up to the W elland C anal, turn around, and c o m e back , and they' d had a n ice afternoon, you see. Well, I had a 1 9 1 9 . . . and I got home on the gas I had anyway . R.H: What kind of car was it ? S.B: A F o r d , a Ford Roads t e r . Of course there was no roads , you know , and if you lived in the country where my dad w as . . . he bough t . . . ! don't know what it w as , 28 . . . I th ink in 1 9 28 he bought the first F ord tour ing car , s ide curtains on it , $ 8 0 0 . 0 0 h e paid for the car. He ca m e up near the raceway to F retz's I think it was , the man that sold it, and he never d rove a car in h is l ife, gets int o it, and drives it home. ( R.H: He didn't need a license ? (20 ) �S.B: No l ice ns e , and when he went to stop it h e said " W hoa" and it wouldn' t stop, and then he r e m e m bered. H e d rove that for . . . well, that was the only car that he ever bought . R.H: D o you know anything about the S t evensville Hotel ? S.B: No, I don't know too much about that. R.H: You don't know too m uch about S tevensville ? S.B: Oh , I knew the general store was owned by Pat R o bins on. H e had a ge neral store there and h e sold e verything . It didn't make any difference what it w as you wanted, if it was available , he got it for you. R.H: Now , w a s that on Main S treet ? S.B: Y e ah , W e s t Main. Well, it' s the first s tree t up on the corner wh ere his store was . The mill was th ere . R.H: The Cider Mill , o r the P laning Mill ? S.B: The P laning Mill, it w as there , and th ere also was a Gris t Mill there for grinding grains . Well, Wilfred House's father was the one ru n it then, you s e e . Then there was t h e Cider Mill that Ch arlie Wale operated, and then th ere was . . . R.H: The S t evens ville G a rage ? S.B: P ardon ? Y eah , there was a garage there . . . The C h e vrolet feller. . . ! can't think of his n a m e , h e ran the Chevrolet place , sold C h evrolets . . . l can't think of it now . Th ere was two or three i m ple m ent dealers th ere selling im ple m e n t s , and where Wale is th ere now , Phil Lich t enberg e r s o l d m achinery . H e w a s kind of a slippery feller t h a t would s ell things , and there was a joke about him at one time . . . h e had a rhy m e t h a t m eant . . . b u t any way , i t didn' t a mount to anything y o u s e e . The b earing on this part was supposed to be good, but it had collected dus t , and dirt , and greas e , and everything all mixed up and it was no goo d , and you had t o watch h i m when you we re dealing with him . Then they had a barrel factory ther e , where they made barrels . That was P irson's, John P irson's . They had a bar rel factory there, wooden bar rels , cider barrels , and w h iskey barrels , and stuff l ike that. They'd buy the lu m be r , the trees from the far m e r s you know , and they' d cut the m out, and they' d haul t h e m u p , and cut them out , and make the barrels . That only las t e d for a few years. Well, then they had a saw m ill, they had a saw m ill there that used to saw logs, and stuff. That was Ben D ean, and h is brother had a saw m ill (21) �u p towards We lland . I r e me m be r dad tak ing a shellbar ch icory tree, .. and h e cut it , and h e bought it from J don' t kno w , but I th ink he ( only paid $ 1 0 .0 0 o r $ 1 5 . 0 0 for th is tree, and he wanted t o fix h i m t w o pieces o n each e n d o f t h e barn. He needed s o m e t i m be r s 3 6 f e e t long, a n d h e got t h is shellbar ch icory t ree, a n d h e t ook i t up t o B e n D ea n ' s M il l , and t h ey were j u s t abl e t o cut t h at length on the saw there, and they said the sparks was c o m ing off of t h e saw j u s t l ike it would come off a g r indstone. Oh was that h a r d . R.H: W as S tevens v ille's M a in S t reet just a mud road.? S.B: It w as much the same as it is now , it hasn't g r own much . R.H: B u t was it m u d roads then ? S.B: N o , they had no houses on the east s i de of the rail r oa d t racks . There w as noth ing t h er e, you s e e . R.H : W h er e was t h e r a ilroad station ? S.B: W ell, there was a post s t a t ion on t h e C . N . R. , and one on the M ichigan . T h e C, N . R t rack s , that's the one . . . t h e first one you go into when you hit . . . the station was j u s t u p a little bit. R.H: A n d they had a t icket agent there, d i dn't they ? S.B: Y eah , they had t icket agents there. Th e dou ble t rack s , that's the ( other t rack at the other s ide when you go through S t e v e n s v ille . Th ere was a double track in there, and they had the stat ion agent there. R.H: D o you r e m e m be r who that was, the station agent ? S.B: Oh , B ak e r . R.H : Bake r ? S.B: Baker I th ink h is n a m e was . I don't r e m e m be r the ones in the C ; N ; R . M y m e m o ry o n names don't hold s o good . R.H: D i d S t e vensville have s idewalks ? S.B: Oh . . . well, I . . . s o m e had s idewalks, but there was no s idewalks that there is now . R.H: D id they have the h itch ing posts too, and everything ? S.B: Y eah , they had the h itch ing posts . They had three o r four h itch ing posts across in front of the store, and a double plank across , and you could dr ive your horses up, and put the halt e r on him and t ie h i m up to this pos t , so he couldn't slide back and forth. You'd try to keep them apart from the other horses that were there , you see: R.H: Why, would that caus e trouble ? (22) �S.B: Well, the horses m ight kick one anoth e r , you see. That was the only way to watch the m . My aunt and uncle were funeral d irectors there for wh ile . R.H: W as that the C limenhage's ? S.B: The C l i menhag e ' s , n o t Bert C l i menhag e , but it w as h is fath e r C h r i s , C h r is C l i menhag e . R.H: H e had a h o r s e - d r a w n hearse, r igh t ? S.B: Y eah , and h e l ived o n the first house just aft e r you cross t h e railroad tracks. That would be the C . N . R . , and h is stable w as on t h e s ide of t h e h ill fac ing the rail r oad t racks , and you could go down and around t o the stable o r you could . . . h e had s t a irs planked u p , that the horses could come u p when they got ready t o take the hearse out. They'd take th e m u p there, and hook them o n t o the hearse, and d r ive them out. When h e s tarted in the bus iness , h e couldn't w r it e h is own name. M y aunt taught him what h e knew as far as that goes . She had the educat ion , h e didn't have it . R.H : What about taking care of the deceas e d , d i d h e know how to do that ? S.B: Y e ah , they used to make the caskets and l ine t h e m w ith cloth, they were l ined w ith cloth at that time, you see. My uncle and . . . they h a d b ig bolts of cloth that used, you kno w , the d ifferent colours ( that they put on. If there w as a death in t h e plac e , they ' d sell the cas k e t , and then they ' d take it and line it , and fix it up ready for t o put the person in it . There wasn't too much enbalm ing at that time. I guess they used mostly fo r m aldehyde at that time t o k inda hold the body for . . . they only kept the body fo r two or three days . I don't know too much about it . R.H: That was your uncle that had t h e funeral h o m e ? S.B: That was my uncle , y eah , m y fathe r ' s s ister and brother- in-la w . R.H: You s a i d y o u worked f o r a plu m be r , do y o u re m e m be r the na m e of that plu m ber ? S.B: Barnhart, Lou Barnhar t . R.H: W h e r e was he situat e d , w a s he on Jarvis S t reet ? S.B: N o , he was on G il more Road at that t i m e . H e lived on G il more Road. It was during the war time, the S econd World War. H e couldn't get any help at all, and there was only the two plu m bers in F ort E r ie th e n. T h e re w a s the Barnhart ' s , and the n the re was the ... oh , I can't think of it . . . he w as almost in the place that called A m igari, (23 ) �and the other was in the port ion of F o rt E r ie, the north part of what , is F o r t E r ie now . I did all the plu m b ing I d id everyth ing in the plu m b ing. Well, I spent better than 10 years there, you s e e . H is boy was called into the a r m y , and when he came out of the a r m y he wanted to d o heating, hot air . Well, Lou Barnhart didn't l ike that , h e liked the plu m b ing, t h e p ipe-fit t ing, and stuff like that , h e d idn't care for the oth e r , but h e d i d a cert ain amount of it . I didn't l ik e t o start at the top, and work down. If I had started at the bot t o m , and w o rked m y way up, it would have been alrigh t . I could do the stuff, but I just didn't like it . I ' d s ooner do the plum bing part o f it, you see. S o when the boy c a m e h o m e h e . . . w e l l , h e got $ 5 0 . 0 0 per p e r s o n t o hire s o m e o f t h e . . . well, m ostly F r ench people , and they brough t t h e m in, and h i r e d the m , a n d then let the C anad ians sh ift for t h e m selves . H e lay e d m e off, a n d he h ired these fellows because h e got $ 5 0 . 0 0 cash from the govern m e nt t o t r y and t each t h e m how t o plu m b , how t o w o r k at the trade, and they couldn't hardly understand the m , and they h a d to go there and show them what they wanted don e . They all h a d t o be s h o w e d . He c a m e b a c k a f t e r four or five month s , and wanted m e to c o m e b a c k , b u t I got plu m b ing jobs along the N iagara R iv e r , water a n d p i p e s , a n d ( stuff l i k e that . I had a l l the work I c o u l d do, and it d i d n ' t make any d ifference to me, so I said "No, I can' t , I pro m ised these customers t o fin ish their j o b s , s o I have to do that " . R.H: S o you went on your o wn t h en ? S.B: I w as on my o w n . R.H: And d i d you st ay that w ay ? S.B: I stayed that w ay as long as I was plu m b ing along the r ive r . Well, then when I came up here, I d i d a little b it more, but noth ing m u c h , I d idn't bother too m u c h . R.H: D o you r e m e m be r when the P eace B r idge opene d ? S.B: Y eah , I r e m e m be r but I didn't have to o much interest in polit ics R.H: N o , I just wondered if you went to se e the open ing ? S.B: I don't know , I never was intereste d - in a whole lot of that stuff you . know . I never was in polit ics or publ ic wo rks , o r anyth ing l ike that . I w as m ostly on the quiet end of the s t ick, I guess. That's the reason why I've lived so long I gues s . When we m o ved here, we figured we w ould have a h o m e when we got old, you s e e . Well, the p r ice wasn't nothing , w e rented the farm , and w e got $60 .00 . . . (24) �R.H: S.B: ( D i d you say this was the Baxter place at one t i m e ? I think it was the Baxter place , from the government . R.H: Was this C rown Land at all ? S.B: Well, my uncle bough t it from Baxter's you see, but Baxter was the one I th ink that got it from the C rown if I re m e m be r rightly , but m y uncle bought it from Baxte r . When I ca me in here that wallpaper in the d ining room there was hang ing in shreds, r ight al most down t o the floo r you know . They had a furnace, a floor furnac e , and the pipe went up and crossed, and then up into the bedroo m , and round into the chimney . You stood and looked at the fire when they had it in there, and you could see the fla m e s at the bottom of the fireplace . I said " That's enough of that" s o the next year I got the h o t water rad iators in, and did away w ith the furnace . R.H: D i d you go on the ferry boats at all ? S.B: F ro m F ort E r ie ? Well , we used t o go on the ferry go ing across to Buffalo . O h , I've crossed that many a t i m e . R .H: What was it like ? S.B: O h , it was only a short trip. Th ey used t o take the cars across to go over to B u ffalo , and come back . I don't know what the price was, 15 or 2 0 cents . ( R.H: You caught it r ight at the South End, di d you ? S.B: Well, it was at the S outh End and it run pretty near st raight across� In the wint e r t i m e if you'd go when the ice was c o m ing down the r iv e r , s o m e t i m e s the ferryboat would have t o go way down pretty near to the Internat ional B r idge , and then come u p on the other side to get across. This was on account of t h e flow of ice . It was a s idewheeler too at that t i m e . R.H: They were s idewheelers ? There was quite a few of the m , wasn't there ? S.B: I think there was four or five different ones that they run in there . Well, then of course they put the br idge th rough , and that was the fin ish . They did run the fe rries in the s u m mer for a l it tle while, but everbody took to the Peace B r idge you see. Then the cars ca me , and the roads a nd . . . w e l l , the re was a Beam that l iv e d down near the townline , or Netherby Road, near Black C reek, on Black C reek and Netherby Road, and he was advocating good roads . He could ( see ahead, that the country would be into good roads . Well, I said (25) �" Y o u ' d look around the far m s and see lots of woods and t i m be r " . They'd have ti m b e r o n t h e trees a n d stuff on there. N o w you'd have a job t o find a tree that you could get a 30 foot piece o f t i m be r ( o u t o f . You can hardly f i n d i t any m o r e . Well, they've been cutt ing the m all down you kno w , and all for firewood. The only one was down here on what was the R e inhart place , and there's s o m e lovely t r ees in there, but they' re tak ing out the dead trees and as a result of tak ing out the dead t rees they' t e destroying the places where the ' c oons and stuff stay in t h e fo r e s t , and they're c o m ing out into c ivilizat ion . R.H: Have you ever heard of a place called Kern's Boarding House ? It was in the South E n d . S.B: N o . I don't know too much about t h e South E n d . In F or t E r ie ? No, C . W . VaHey was t h e g r o c e r , h e was the main one and that's t h e one mother used t o t rade w ith , and then there was Y e o . Yeo was the grocery, and then there was a couple others that came there, fly-by- nigh t s , and you had t o be careful if you bought anyth ing . They'd want to gyp you on what you were getting. Then there was a drugstore that was run by M r . Land, and then there w as a j e welle rs store by . . . H ouse had a j e wellers store in . . . ( R.H: The South End ? S.B: In the South End. Well it would be on Jarvis S t r e e t . There was se veral others there but . . . I don't . . . ! know the R oyal Hotel was there the s a m e as it is n o w . R.H: The Queen's Hotel has been there a long t i m e , hasn' t it ? S.B: Yeah , the Queen's Hotel has been there . . . the Queen's is in the S outh End. Then there was the A nglo A m e r ican Hotel wh ich has been burned now for a little bit . The Barnea House , the Barnea House is what I was telling you about , where my mother used t o . . . That was on the st reet r ight next t o the ra ilroad t racks , and that's where she used to d r ive the horse in the d r iveway, and they used t o have a b ig open shed, and they' d d r ive the buggy and everything in there. They' d t ie the horses up, and there was a place in the feedbox where you put the oats in there . You'd du m p the oats in, and let the horses eat , and throw a l ight blanket over them . R.H: Do you know who owned the Barnea House at that t i me ? S.B: No, I wouldn't know . Then there was the G rand Trunk Hotel. That (26) �That was on G ilmore Road. The Racetrack was nothing like it is now you kno w . It was all le vel, and they filled it up you see because people used t o stand there on the street and see the races go on, ( you see. That's why they built it u p so you couldn't see it . All the cus t o m ers at the G rank Trunk used to enjoy the races and not pay for it at all . They went up and planted the trees around and that stopped the view . R.H: It w a s n ' t v e r y big at t h a t t i m e , w a s it ? S .B : N o , not too b ig then. It was only a s m all place . R.H: W a s t h e r e a lot of races at t h a t t i m e ? S .B: Well, I don' t r e m e m be r too m uch about the race s . Th ey used t o h a ve the F a r m ers P icnic there, and s o m e of the far m e r s t h at had d r iving horses used to figure that their horses was better than so and so' s . They'd take them t o the races and t ry them out. S o m e t i m e s t h e y u s e d t o hook wheels a n d lose a w h e e l or s o m eth ing . That used t o be the draw ing card for it . R . H: Have you ever heard that on V ict o ria Day, May 2 4 th, there was a c o m pe t i t ion between R idgeway , and S t e vensville ? S.B: { No. R.H� It w a s a s p o r t s compe t i t ion, do y o u k n o w anyth ing about that ? S.B: N o , I don' t . R.H: D o you know i f there w a s a movie theatre i n R idgeway ? S.B: I couldn't tell you. R.H: I know there was one on Dufferin S t r e e t , the Bella r d . S.B: T h e y were j u s t beginning to go to t h o s e mo v ie places y o u s e e . The old t i m e r s used to get together you know and . . . R.H: Yeah, what d id you d o for entertain m e n t , d i d you s quare dance ? S.B: I dance d a little. at one t i m e . Well, they used t o have the dances , in the p r ivate homes. Well, it was only one w inter I guess they had it and that kind of petered out . You couldn't get them to hold togeth e r on anyth ing . There was a fam ily down along the N iagara Boulevar d that . . . Edwardson, they had a big hous e . Well, the room would be longe r than this room across h e r e , and it would b e as w ide as this ; It was a lovely old place for danc ing. It was all hardwood floors and everything. They used to l ike to get the young folks to c o m e there , and s h e was a lovely cook. She could cook l ike nobody's business ; They'd have a n oyster supper after the dance, and one th ing and another: (27) �They' d take up a collection a mong the fellers that was there and hand it over t o them to help to pay for the evening. R.H: [ Have you heard anything about the F enien R a id ? ] S.B: Well, there was gunfire at . . . R.H: What was h is name ? S.B: ( A thoe's, I don't know whether Athoe lived there o r not, I don' t th ink so. R.H: A n d t h is A thoe's h o u s e on R idge R oad was h it by this gunfir e ? S.B: It was h it by musket balls. The marks are in t h e b r ick walls today, you can s ee it . There was an orchard j u s t up f r o m t h e barn and there was an orchard across the road and that's where t h e soldiers w h er e h i d ing behind the trees and stuff when t h e F eniens . . . the F enien Raid of 1 8 1 2 you see. The first soldier that was shot d ie d under a thorn t r e e up here on . . . near the . . . what do you call that ? The park r ight in there, s o m ewhere's in t h e r e , but I forget just where that tree was. There was shoot ing h ere, and that's w e r e they got behind the trees for protect ion and some of the bullets h it the br ick house of M r. A thoe's up here on R idge R oa d . There was a M r s . Roadhouse . who was in 8 6 . . just up the other s i d e , , that new brick house j ust u p here a little ways beyond the white house, that was her house, ( and that was the hospital for s o m e o f the soldiers at the time of the F e nien Raid. R.H: Was that house r ight on R idge Road ? S.B: They m o ved it u p t o the . . . R.H: The G a r r ison Road ? Is that the one they mo ved t o the Gar rison Road and they call it the R idgeway House ? S.B: Yeah, that was right down here you s e e . R.H: Y eah , w it h the brass plaque. S o that w as a hospital ? S.B: That was a hospital fo r the soldiers at that t i m e o f 1 8 1 2 . R.H: For the soldiers, and it was right on t h is road at one t i m e ? S.B: R ight on th is road, r ight up there . . . R.H: And they were taken care of in there ? S.B: They were taken care of. It wasn't too . . . I don't th ink there was too much o f a battle , because they were overpowered and it was . . . It wasn't like it is today w ith those machine guns and stuff. I t would have been slaughter. R.H: So that was the F e n ien Raid then ? (28) �S.B: That was the F e nian Raid. What I was saying was , the o rchards was what gave the m protection, and the trees. You see, they gathered in behind the trees for protect io n . S o m e of the bulle t marks are ( in the wall yet. You can see the m . When M illigans fixed it over, they left that part there. They changed the inside o f the house a little b it from what it used t o b e . R.H: That was really interesting, but g e t t ing back t o far m ing can you r e m e m be r what your parents would pay for a team of horses ? S.B: I don't really know but I think it was somewhere's around $ 1 0 0 . 0 0 a piec e . They had t h e team a s far back a s I can r e m e m b e r . R.H: Where d i d they buy them ? S.B: That I couldn't say. There was a t e a m they called Jack and J ill, but w h o they bought them fro m , I don't r e m e m b e r . M y g randfather took the one, and m y fath er t ook the other . M y grandfather took Jack and my dad t ook J ill. H e got another one but she was ligh t e r , not quite as h e a v y a horse . R .H : Was t h e d r iver horse the ligh ter horse ? S.B: W e l l , they used t h e m f o r both , far m ing a n d d r iv ing . Y o u see t h e machinery w a s n ' t heavy at t h o s e t i m e s . The heaviest o n e w a s p r obably ( the binde r . That was the heavie s t . R.H: When they needed shoe ing you took t h e m t o the blacks m ith, can you r e m e m be r who the blac k s m it h w as t h at they went t o ? S.B: Oh , Pat R yan in New G e r many . H e was the shoe mak e r . A ft e r h e quit they went to Howard Be rtran in S t e vensville for t h e shoe ing . When it got t o be a dollar a shoe, at that t i m e they figured it was too much money. Now, my dad used t o supply some people in F ort E r ie w ith hay. They' d call up a nd they' d want a l oa d of hay an d it w o ul d m a yb e be i cy so he'd h av e t o t a k e the h orse s up t o the blacks m ith and have the corks sharpened . Then they'd go on the N iagara Bouleva r d , a n d by t h e ti m e they'd c o m e home they w e r e dull again. T h e horses were sliding all ove r . H e said, "Oh those roads are no good for the horses at all" . . One year he took a log u p to the m ill, B e n Dean's Saw m ill, that was just east of S tevensville, and he had quite a b it of t rouble getting over the railroad t racks on account of the snow being plowed off. He said "It's no good fo r the far mers now any m o re . T h ey c an' t get o v er the r oads, those cars and t rucks k eep al l the snow off the roads. So he came home and I think he sold h is sleigh (29 ) �and he had a pair of bobsleighs that he made hi mself. He sold the m , and I don't r e m e m be r who h e s old t h e m t o . I know they d isappeare d , ( a n d that' s all I know . R.H: If any of the animals got sick, was h e r e a veter inar ian you'd call ? S.B: Oh yeah , but s o m e o f the local far me r s w e r e pretty well good at doctor ing the s t ock them selves . There was a vet in S t e vensville I think, but I forget what his name was . M ost o f t h e m , if they had any experience at all in far m ing would know what to do. Th is one horse that dad o w n e d , h e had quite a habit of g e t t ing colic so he used t o keep s o m e ginger , and give him a quart or so of g inge r . To g ive h i m t h e ginger w e had t o hold h is head up and pour i t in h is mouth so h e ' d dr ink it . That u s e d to work for the colic . R.H: D o you know anyth ing about the races ? S.B: N o , I was only there once when · t h e B e r t ie F air was at the R acetrack . R.H: Was that the only time you were at the Racetrack ? S .B: I was never intereste d . It was a wast e of money t o . . . R.H: Yeah , but I was j u s t talking about watch ing the rac ing . S .B : Well, a ne igh bour by the name of R ussell M ille r , h e used t o run these horses at the races. ( R.H: H e owned horses , did h e ? S.B: Yeah, h e did. E verybody had horses . They had one horse for d r iving , and then a team for w o rking. The far m e r s had three horses you see. One they'd use for just dr iving into town and stuff, and s o m e t i m e s . . . well, m y mother used t o d r ive the horse w e h a d . She'd d r ive it to F o r t Er ie , and then if they went t o S t e vensville . The m u d would be six inches deep, the wheels would cut in o n the roads , and in the w in t e r t i m e it wasn't no fun on it. They d idn't go where there w as a stone road , they didn't like t h e s t one road because it was cob blestone l ik e , and it was so rough w ith the wagons and s tuff u ntil they got it s m oothed down w it h the asphalt . R.H: Talking about your mother going t o F ort E r ie , she went t o that l ive r y stable beside t h e Barnea, d idn't she ? S.B: The Barnea House , yeah. It cost 25 o r 3 0 cents to stable the horse in there, and if it was near noon they'd g ive it a bundle of hay to eat . Well, if it was we t o r snowy they' d go in there, and if it was sunny she would just t ie the horse up outs ide at the store. She generally went to VaHeys Store and did her shopping in there. It was n' t a self-serv ice, (3 0) �you would ask for everything and they knew r ight where it was and go and get it , and give it out to you. ( R.H: Was the Barnea H ouse like a board ing house at that t i m e ? S.B: Oh it was a low slung . . . I don't kno w , I neve r was in there. Most of t h e shed w as low, low enough just so that t h e buggy , the top of the buggy could go in there . It was about 7 o r 8 feet h igh or so , maybe 1 0 feet for clearances . Just enough so that you'd d r ive the h o rses in, and t ie t he m , and there was a m anger in t h e front where they could put the hay , and something for the m . They used t o back them out , turn then around, and have them ready t o go for home then. There was two or three places in F ort E r ie where they could put the horses in. R.H: I kno w , but I was just trying to get s o m e info r m at ion on the Barnea, what it looked lik e . S.B: To m y recollection it w a s a l o w s l u n g building. It w a s n ' t h igh . . . well, if it had t w o stories that was all it had. The sh ed was at tached right on the back of the Barnea H ouse and went far back as the . . . Well, the town had those, I don't know what they call t h e m now . F ro m J a r vis S t reet over , there had t o be a d i v is ion you see, there was a street through the alleyway . . . the alley w ay s they used to ( call the m . They all had the alleyways to drive th rough , you see, and s o m e of t h e m w er e j ust w ide enough to d r ive through w it h the wagon and hay on it . I've seen my dad go t h rough s o m e of t h e m , rubbing on the build ing on one side, and r u b b ing on t h e build ing on the other, and h e said, "He didn't know whether he'd g e t thr ough o r not " . A nyway it was low slung with a kind of a flat roof, and a lit tle short roof on the s ide, but it was longer on t h e other side . I th ink there was a box stall there they ' d take and put the horses in. Some horses wouldn' t stand very good when they' re hitched up to a buggy so they had t o take them out of the buggy and put the m in a box stall, and then they'd be alright then. R.H: S o that was on Courtwright , wasn ' t it ? ' S.B: Yeah , Courtw r ight. R.H: I i magine that street wasn't too built up, was it ? S.B: Well, it was the same as Jarvis S t r e e t , it was m u d d y . There was mud holes in the street, and you ' d be down this way and that way ( ,-- going down the street . (3 1) �R.H: Do you re m e mber anything about the rati oning during the w ar, the S e c ond W orld War? S.B: What w as rationed ? We h ad ration books for gasolin e , and for sugar and m e at , and things like that . We w ere never rationed too strong. Well, gasoline w as 50 cents a gallon then and that w as pret ty high at that t i m e . R.H: Did you h ave c oupons for the gasoline? S.B: Oh, the m ain things you could al w ays get . When you w ere a farm er you h ad your wheat and stuf f like that you kno w , and you h ad your but t er and you h ad your milk, so you didn't w orry t oo much about it. R.H: W asn't there w ays of get ting it through the black m arket , like gasoline? S .B: Yeah , but they all frowned on the black m arket . They said, " Well, the c ountry's fighting and there' s no use in going on the black m arket " . I know l o t s o f t i m e s w e'd g o i n for gasoline and you'd give him your card and he'd com e back and h and it to you, and when you got home you'd look and find he never t o ok any coupons out . But they frowned on i t . R.H: S .B: ( I t still w ent on though , didn't it? Y eah . R.H� Did you e ver hear of M ayor Guess or Herb Guess? He w as the M ayor of F ort Erie at one t i me. S .B: Oh , yeah he w as the M ayor o f Fort Erie. R.H: Before he w as the M ayor, didn't he run some boxing m at ches? S.B: I don ' t know t oo m u ch about that . R.H: What ab out illegal gambling, did you hear anything about that? S.B: Oh , they did a little but I didn't bother m u ch w ith that. R.H: Did you kno w the legend of A m i gari , did you ever h e ar that st ory ? S.B: N o, the only one I kno w o f . there w as Abe B e am who used t o live .• in A m igari. He w as the only person I kne w that lived in A m igari . R.H: Y ou w ere going t o t e ll me som ething about when your d ad helped pull the bootlegger out o f the mud , tell m e about that ? S.B: Oh , that w as one Sunday m orning, a feller c a m e t o the door, and he asked "If dad had a tractor or a t e am of h orse s ? " Dad said " H e did " , and he said " He w as stuck i n t h e mud and h e 'd like t o g e t out " . Well, dad says " A s a rule I don't m ake it a practice t o work on Sundays , but I'll t ake the t e am down t o help " . S o ( • • • I think he only t ook the one horse, one horse down there , got down t o it, and pulled him out (3 2) �pulled him off the road , and then h e w ent on. I don't kno w , he paid him $10 or $15, something like that. You kno w that w as a big sum of m oney. The bootleggers had the m oney then you see. S o afterwards they t old him that he had pulled out a bootle gger. My dad was . . • what do you call i t ? . He didn't like anybody that did a lot of drinking , and stuff like that . He was a t eet otaler. He didn't like any of that . The same as when the Provincial Gas put the gas w ells down there they w anted him to go up to the h otel and . . . see the h ot els w ere about every four m iles apart . There w as one up here on Bowen R oad at Ridgem ount , and then there w as another one on N igh R oad , and of course there w as one in S tevensville, one in N e w Germany, and there w as one down in Black Creek. They all sold beer in there, in the kegs, and they wanted dad to go and buy a keg of beer t o celebrate, you see. H e says " I d on't drink mysel f , and I ' m not buying it for anybody else" . So he didn't buy any. R.H: So that was the ProvinGial Gas C ompany that w as di gging those gas wells? S .B: R.H: ( That was the Provincial Gas C ompany. I see, so it w asn't a privately owned com pany that was digging the gas wells? S.B: No it w asn 't private. They leased the land and all around it, and they gave them so much . I think they gave them $ 50 a year and free gas if they drilled the w ells on the farm . Dad never got , he never got $ 50 , and he had to go to court in order t o get gas, because they w ouldn't put the pipe up for the w ell so he c ould tap int o i t , you see. R.H: When you got i t , it w as free then? S.B: Oh yes, it was fre e and we had all the gas we needed in the h ouse . I think they figured 250,000 feet o f gas a year w ould supply a farmhouse , but they wasted it like just let i t go regardless of whe ther. . . They ••• thought there w as never an ending t o it, you see. That's why they got rid o f practi cally all the gas h ere . R.H: So there w as no gas bills then? S.B: N o . Well, then afterw ards they cut them out and they charged them so much for gas then. That w as in the later ye ars, about 10 or 15 years after that. ( R.H: Y ou don't re member the names of any of those hotels, do you, like (3 3) �the one on Bo w en R oad ? S.B: I can't re call it right now .•• The one on the B o w en R oad w as quite a prominent one . It had m ore a c c o m odations for travellers than ( the others. R.H: Was that like a h al f w ay h ouse ? S.B: Yeah , they used t o call it a hal f w ay h ouse . R.H: I think there w as four of them I believe , w asn't there ? S.B: Well, there w as quite a number of them around. R.H: Weren't they m ore for boarding, and sleeping overnight? S.B: Y e ah , they w ould keep travellers at night . They w ould take them in f or the night and stable the h orses . . . Well, there w as all those country roads you know and there w asn't st one roads, and there w asn' t the busses or nothin g . They either had t o w alk . . . There w as travellers w h o use d t o c o m e through selling clothing, cot t on and gingham , and stuff like that . R.H: Travelling salesm en? S.B: Travelling salesmen , but they walked through , w alked and carried it on their backs. R . H: ( Did they carry it in sui t cases? S .B: S o m e o f them had it in a suit case, others had it wrapped up in oil-cloth when they came through . R.H: O kay, you said that you never had electri city, what about indo or plumbing? S.B: N o indoor plumbing. We had a cistern. Well, aft er my dad rem odelled the h ouse we put a cistern in and we had a place for a bathroom , but w e didn't have running water. We only had a cist ern w ith soft w ater. The first cist ern w as just a dug w ell with timbers across, and it w as boarded over, and then sodded on t op of that. It w ould give w ay som e t i m e s you know , and then you'd h ave to clean out the cist ern and go d o w n in there with a ladder and a lantern , and scrub the ••• cle an it out , and let it fill up again w i th som e eavestrough in. R.H: S o h o w did you g e t the w at er, w as there a pump you use d ? S.B: N o , w e used to get the w at e r with a pail and a branch o f f a tre e , w i t h a limb out about 6 or 8 f e e t long. W e ' d h o o k t h e pail o n it and swit ch it back and forth to. . . The re w o uld b e a cert ain am ount ( of s cum over the t op , and you'd brush that back and forth and dip (3 4) �your water out , and t ake it in the house and have a good drink of w at er. W e 'd never t hink anything about i t . ( R.H: S o h ow did your m other do the w ashing ? S .B: She'd have to dip the w at er. Sh e had a w ashing m a chin e , but she h ad t o turn it by han d . Then they h ad copper boilers that they used t o put the clothes in and set it on the st ove, and boil them : It did som e clean w ashing. R . H: I guess they didn't w ash t oo often then? S.B: Every week, but they never w ashed every day. R.H: What about baths? S .B: Th.a t w as on ce a w eek. I t old N an cy here, "I t ook t w o baths a year, one in the Spring and one in the Autumt{. ( N ancy is Mr. Bea m 's daughter-in-law ) N o, that used t o be a Saturday night session that they used to use the w ashtub . I had three sisters and t w o broth ers . . . W ell , m y younger brother w as 1 6 years, 1 7 years younger than I w as but my m other used t o say " Well , the girls first and the boys come after w ards " . W e ' d get a scrubbing in the w ash tub in the kit ch en. We never had running water at any time, but in the later years they had a w ell drilled hal f w ay bet ween the h ouse and barn. It w as real good drinking water, but i t w as hard w at er. It w as inclined t o be ( sulpured , limey. M y aunt w as down to see m y dad one day, and m other was up at her sisters, and she w an t e d t o bake som e baked beans, so she asked me t o go out t o the b arn and get som e beans so that she could cook them . I did , and she put them in the water and she boiled and c ooked , and c ooked for h ours, and they didn't get soft. She said t o m y dad " I think som eone must have got som e old beans that you've b e en keepin g " . Well, he says "I'll get som e good beans for you " . S o he got som e good beans and he brought them in, and she put them on , and she cooke d , and cooked , and cooke d , and c ooked , and t h e y never d i d get sof t . S o d a d says a ft erw ards, " I kno w what's the m at t e r " . H e says t o me, " Go d o w n t o Uncle J o e ' s and get a pail o f w at e r from the cistern " . I w ent d o w n and brought a pail up and he put them on, and they cooked right soft in no time. With the soft w at e r they'd soften right up but they w ouldn't with the hard w a t er. R.H: ( So it w as the w at er ? SeB: It w as the w ater that ••• it w as hard water. Other than that , the (3 5) �w ater w as good . You had t o kno w what you w ere cooking with it. R.H: I guess it w ould b e hard t o w ash w ith that w at e r t oo , w ouldn't it? S.B: Well, they had soap •. • A lot of them m ade their o w n soap . It w as h omem ade soap in those d ays. R.H: Yeah , I've heard of that , w asn't it a w ashsoap m ade w ith lye? S.B: Yeah it w as lye. Y ou t ook t allow , and beef-fat , and you rended it out , then you w armed it up , and you poured the • . . you t ook a can of lye, and you h ad t o use a granite c ontainer f or it , and you'd put the lye in the w ater and that w ould al m ost boil the w at er, and then you'd pour the t allow , the beef-fat in that , and then stir i t . Y ou'd stir it all up , and it w ould congeal so that you hardly t urn it, and you'd have to p our it out int o a lit t le box, and put a paper on the bot t om s o it w ouldn't run out i f there w as any h oles in i t . R.H : Was that like a m old? S.B: A m old for i t . Then before it got hard , you'd t ake the kni fe and draw it through the centre, and t ake it , and m ake cakes of soap . By the next m orning you'd could break the cakes off, and it w as ready t o use in the w ash . It used t o whiten the clothes good . ( R.H: Yeah , it w as good for w ashing, but it w as hard I imagine on the skin, wasn't it? S.B: O h , it w asn ' t t oo bad . R.H: The lye used t o burn , didn't i t ? S.B: Y ou w ouldn't not i ce t oo m uch of it . It w as the grease that cut the lye t oo, you see. R.H: D idn't the lye burn you? S.B: Oh, it w ouldn't burn you, it w ouldn't burn you at all. R.H: But the lye itsel f , i f i t w asn't m ixed , w ould burn you, right? S.B: Oh yeah, lye itself w ould , but the grease cuts the p o w e r of the lye , and the lye cuts the grease for w ashing. It goes 5 0/ 5 0 so ••. It m ade gre at soap for w ashing, and t h e y use d t o have the o l d s crub-board . I have t w o of the m d o w n the c ellar. When my m o ther and father w ere first m arried , they lived down on the N i ag ara Boulevard and they w ere hal f w ay b e t w e en Black C re e k and Chippaw a . There w as a high b ank there about 2 5 fee t , and the road then, at that t i m e w as • • • well, the one w agon-wheel w ould drive over the edge o f the bank, and the other w ould b e rubbing the fence 'til they (3 6) �m ore land from the farm ers you see to widen the land up . Well, then aft erw ards the park com issioners came along , and they stoned along the w aterfront to keep the w at e r from w ashing the bank ( a w ay. R.H: Was that in the 20's they did that ? S .B: That w ould be before the 2 0 's. They put the st one all the way along later, the big rough st one, and that kep t the bank from breaking away. R.H: So they st oned the riverbank S.B: Y eah , the riverbank. Well, in the sum m ert i m e, there used t o be •.• ? a t eam and carriage, they used t o call it the Tally-Ho • .• R.H: The Tally-H o? S.B: The Tally-Ho, and they had stables at . . . where w ould it be? Where the M c A fee Cem etery is you know , on the N iagara B oulevard . D o you know where that is? R.H: I've heard of it but . . . S.B: Well, there used to be a st able there, and then there w as stables at B lack Creek, and they had stables at Chippawa. They'd have six h orses, four to six h orses, and they w ould si t up on the t op and drive them , and the people w ould ride in the back t o see the scenery ( along the N iagara R iver. The daughter of the man that had the h orses, she said , "I'd drive them t eam at full gallop all the way down that road " . They used t o go on a gallop w i th the team of h orses and that one wheel som eti m es w ould be over the edge of the bank, and she had nerve enough to drive it through . They'd st op at the ••. up there at the M c A fee Cem et ery where there w as a farmhouse that had stables, and they'd stable the horses there. trhey'd have another m an there and he'd h ave the si x h orses ready, and they'd t ake the other horses in that had c o m e from Fort Eri e , and put the new h orses o n , and they'd g o d o w n t o Black C reek, and they'd change again , and then they'd go on down t o ••• from Black C reek they'd go to Chippaw a. They changed teams thre e t i m e s going through b e c ause t h e y used t o m ake the h orses go right through on a gallop. R.H: Where they changed them , w as that just livery stables or w as that spe c i al place s ? S.B: Spe ci al places. Stables where they kept the horses in , you see. They'd t ake the four o f them off and put them in a box st all and (37) �t ake the others out . They'd have a m an there who had them all ready harnesse d , ready to bring out and hook them on. There 'd b e only a f e w m inut es delay, and a w ay they'd go again down the road. It w as oft entimes that the wheel w ould •• • one side w ould be over the riverbank. I don't know whether you are a quainted with Black C reek, but you know were the Creek c om es out int o the river? There used to be a great big cherry orchard w ay out where the w ater is now , it w ashed all a w ay. That used to be all a big cherry orchard out there. Then the park, they didn't know anything about it and they . . . only they knew some of the farm ers had a chance to haul st one from up here at R idgem oun t , and they'd g o and take a l oad a d ay, take it down and dump i t , and then som ebody w ould b e there to throw the st ones over on the edge of the riverbank, and that 's the w ay they h auled them along. They didn't know what they were doing 'til afterw ards they f ound it w as the p ark com m issi oner f i xing the road t o st art buying the property. They came through and bought the property and some people sold i m m edi ately , and others didn't w ant their farm s and h ouses m oved back, but that w as progress I guess. They had t o yield t o it. I know my grand father w as w illing t o sell but he didn't like the. . . ( He had a ro w of pine trees set up for w indbreak , and the young feller came t o him and sai d , " Well , I understand your condition but lo ok, those pine trees w on't last over five or six years m aybe ten years at the longest , because i t ' s on a clay ground, and pine w on't grow on clay ground any length of time" . It w as true enough and he sold out to them , but he didn't have t o m ove the h ouse . Well, h e had t o t ake the veranda off the h ouse as the park propert y came right up to the edge of the house . They paid him a fairly good pri c e for the land, but they didn't like t o yield t o change. It's like i f you go a w ay up t o N orthern Ontario and see the people there c ont ented and happy. Th ey don't w ant m odern convenienc e s . Any w ay , they s t arted building the road through there and they had big ro cks about six inches square pretty w ell, and they laid them all d o w n in the road , and then took the st e am-roller and rolled them down. R.H: So what road is that ? S.B: That's the Niagara Parkway. Well the oldtim ers said, " that road w ould never give w ay " . (3 8 ) �R.H: S.B: It R.H: S o it w as 1 9 1 0 or 1 9 1 3 , som ething like that , about 1 9 1 3 ? S.B: ( That must have been a long t i m e ago ? S o m ething like that , and o f c ourse so m e o f the farmers had the w as, i t w as ••• I w ould h ave been about 1 5 years old. opportunity to w ork on the roads you know , and that gave them spending money then. They used t o grab every chance they'd get for w orking, even to fixing the roads in the spring. Th ey had a s craper for going through , and four h orses, f our t o six h orses , and they pulled that , and that scraped the road level you see, the clay road . They didn't have the graders and stuff like they have t oday. R.H: D idn't they have those steam-rollers , did they use steam-rollers? S.B: St eam-rollers w as for rolling, packing it d o w n , but this w as like a grading that they'd go through and . . • you see them here w i th their power . . . but this w as a log w ith a s t eel blade across the bot t o m , and a t ongue on to i t . Then they'd put the t w o h orses . . . the t w o team s on each side and one ahead , and then they'd roll it over. You got owed so much for the team on your taxes f or doing road w ork, and then the single pe ople, if they needed help they got them to c o m e out and . . . They got paid their share of the t a xes t oo you ( see, for the road w ork they did. Of c ourse when they started s t oning the road s , that got done away with. That ' s progress . R.H: S o did it las t , that road w ork ? S.B: Oh , it lasted for a number of years . They'd fix the road up and the farmers w ould say " Oh , that ' s lovely, now we can go through the road " . Well, you had plowed through m ud roads in the w intert i m e, and they knew what it w ould be like in the Spring. My cousin, she w as going with a feller from Fort Erie. and he had the old M odel T and he came down the N i agara B oulevard and the road w as st oned then , and then he'd come up the t o w nline or the Netherby R oad, and he'd leave a rut so deep , all the w ay through up to where his girlfriend lived , and he'd turn in there. Anybody that got into that rut had t o st ay in it 'til they got to my aunt's place. O f course when the Spring come they'd put their scraper on and scrape that road, fill up the ruts, and everything w ould b e smooth again. sure there must have been a lot o f c ars getting stuck then, right? R.H: I'm S.B: Well, there wasn't too many cars then. That was the time when some of them had cars and they used t o t ake a team o f h orses and (3 9) �pull it out . . . the car out to the N iagara Boulevard, the N iagara Parkway . . . I f it was only a l ittle ways , why-they'd put the chains on, they had chains on the tires, on the rear wheels , and go out . If the mud was ( too deep then, they'd wait ' t il it froze u p and they' d go then, you s e e . M y dad had a 1 9 1 4 F or d h e bought from F r itz Bros . in R idgeway, and h e was u p there one day and got the car and drove it home. He never took a lesson or anyth ing in d r i v ing at all , and when he got into the yard he said " Whoa" , and the car never stopped. R.H: S o you never had any lessons , you j ust learned on your o wn, did you ? S.B: That's all he did, he showed him what t o do , h o w to start it and everything. R.H: They showed you the r e , when you bought the car ? S.B: They showed h i m how to crank i t , to start i� up, h e was used to m o to r s anyway, and w e used t o have a gasoline motor on the far m . R.H: What about this fence you and your dad b u ilt along the Pa rkway ? S.B: A fence ? Oh they put the s t on e along the wat e r ' s edge and then of course they bought the land back, and s o m e places they'd buy m o r e than others , you see. On t h e h igh bank where my dad used t o l ive, why-they had t o go back quite a ways to get m o r e roo m , ( y o u s e e . The bank i n t h e w intert i m e would be soft, a n d going down there s o m e t i m e s , you'd go over your shoe tops t o get a pail of water. You'd d ip it out of the rive r , and c o m e u p and let it set a while, and you'd have about two inches of m u d on the bottom of the pail from the water. When it was clear, the water was j ust as clear and n ice as could be then. When we went to school, we had all the water we had to d r ink. W e used t o get pe r m iss ion to run down to the rive r , and d ip a cup of water and have a drink, and we all had our own cups you know , and r inse it back and forth and dip . . . R.H: But you built a fence along the Parkway w ith your dad, didn't you ? S .B: Oh yeah . We built it down between Chippawa and F alls V ie w . R.H: What w as th is fence for ? S.B: Just to . . . to fence the Park C o m m is ion e r ' s property, and the far m land . They had agreed to fence it s o that the far m e r s could put cattle in, you see. They j us t had t o . . . We used t o take the d riving horse and d rive down to Ch ippawa. Well, it was ten m iles, and we'd get ( a shade tree where we could t ie the horse up and then walk over (40) �to the Park way and bore 8 inch holes w ith a posthole d igge r , and turn it around and you'd be d r illing, and the g round would be hard { and you could hardly get a handful of g roun d . We 'd have to go to the r iver and and get a pa il of water and put that into t o it . We'd leave it s i t t ing w ith a pail of water in the ground for .. . ' t il the next m o r n ing, and then we could go down that much furth e r . It would soften you see. That was slavery work, that . R.H: Yeah , and even w ith that posthole d igge r , was it a posthole d igger you used ? S.B: Yeah , but it w as all by han d . You had t o put your weight on to i t , and turn it. R.H: S o how long d i d it take you t o build that ? S .B : Well it took pretty well the whole su m me r . I forget how many rods of fences , but it was quite a bit t h e r e . M y dad, h e took the not ion to sell fences, b ig w ir e fence s , and he g o t the order there . W h en he got it d o wn, one felle r said " Well, you didn't g ive m e a gat e , I got to have a gat e " . H e says "I'll just c u t the w i re " . Well, m y dad say s , "I hope you don't cut it ' t il I get t h e okay f r o m the Park C o m m is ioner t o get the fence fixed " . W e s t retched the fence u p and w e had two rach ets that w e used t o use, that could take I 2 0 tons . W e used that t o t ighten the w ire up s o that you could stand down t o it , and you could s w ing on t o it . Dad say s , "If they ever cut that w ire w ith a pair of plie r s , they'll have a s u r p r ise of a life t i m e " . Well, you kno w , they stapled f ive o r si x posts back o n each s ide and then they went through cutting . When they cut that w ir e she j us t w ent back l ike that you know, and of course the fence went all t o pieces after that. Some of the fence is st ill . . . it s t ill stands there. R.H: And that was in the ' 2 0 s too, or was it the ' 3 0s ? S.B: Well, that w ould have been when I was about 1 6 years old. R.H: Have you ever heard of the M . T . G reen ? I t was a boat that was at the Shipya r d s . S.B: Well, they made several of them in there . I worked on the . . . I didn't work on the E . B . Osle r , but I worked on t w o boa t s , the North · A me r ican, and the South A me r ican, and then they had a couple of others they built too, but I d idn't ( R.H: . • . D o you know anything about the V illage of V ictoria ? Before it was (41) �called B r idgeburg. S.B: Not too much , j us t what I heard from my mother and them talking about it . It wasn't much d ifferent than when it was called B r idgebu r g : It was pract ically the same thing, it wasn't too much d ifferent. R.H: They m ore-or-less just changed the name, d id they ? S.B: They j us t changed the na m e , that's about all they d i d . They had pract ically the same stores . They had J a rv is S t reet and then they had the one over towards the railroad t racks . That's C ou r t w r ight, isn ' t it ? R.H: Y eah . S .B : There was a s t o re in there, s o m e stores along there, but mostly on Jarvis S t reet w as there a lot of s t o r e s . R .H : D id you ev er see t h e so l di ers t h at patrolled the N iagara Boulevard t o catch the r u m s m uggle r s ? D i d you ever see the soldiers, ' cause I know you went t o school along that way ? S.B: It was never done much , only at night time, but there was one time they had p e r m is s ion from the gove r n m e n t , t h e Ontar io Gove r n m e nt to ship liquor to C u ba . They used to c o m e in to t h e dock by the Royal H otel, and t h e t rucks w ould come there w ith the liquo r , and ( the y ' d shove them down the chute w ith the r olle r s , a n d they'd c o m e down t h er e, o n e r ight a f t e r anoth e r , and t h e y ' d l o a d the boats j u s t a b o u t t h a t f a r o u t of the water , a n d a w a y they'd g o for C u b a . T h e next m o r n ing t h e y ' d be bac k . T h e y never got to C u ba, b u t o n t o the l a k e and me t t h e i r o t h e r p a r t n e r there, t ransfer it, a n d t h e n c o m e o n back . T h a t w a s o n e w a y t h e y got around the A m e r ican Government . They granted t he m pe r m ission for C u ba and . . . If you had a rowboat, and you rowed that boat across, you didn't need to touch i t, all you needed t o do was t o go down there at a ce rtain time and row that boat across t o the other side, get out , and walk down the road about a quarter of a m ile, and come back and get into the boa t , pick u p the money , and row across t o the C anad ian side . You weren't do ing anything. That's how people . . . some o f the m m a de th e i r fortune that way . I know one fam ily t hat , he use d to row the b o a t across, he ne v e r touched anything. H e j ust got int o the boat , rowed it across , and aske d no questions or anyth ing : He docked on the other side , . an d then came back and his w ife used to stand at the w indow and watch him. He used to go across when ( 4 2) �the w ind was blowing strong but he knew the part of the r iver where he was going , you see. She d idn't like him to do it , but he did it for the money. H e got $50 or $60 for taking the boat over and com ing ( bac k . R.H: T h a t w as g o o d m o n e y , wasn't it a n d I g u e s s it was t e m p t ing for some people . S.B: Oh it was . A lot of t h e m would do it and others wouldn' t . I know one feller that used t o . . . H e d idn't touch l i q u o r h i m self, and h e had noth ing t o do w ith it , but t h ey wanted t o s t o r e it in h is barn and h e said " Y e s , you can store it there " . They put it in there, and h e got quite a bit for just not saying anyth ing at all . There's a lot of people who never knew he even d id t h at . They found out aft e r w a r ds that h e stored it there for the m . R.H: S o you d idn't see a n y of t h e s e soldie r s b e c a u s e o f c o u r s e you went t o school in the day t i m e , didn't you ? S.B: Well, w e d idn't see s o m uch of that . I t was noth ing to row across the river. You could row across t o t h e A m e rican s ide and noth ing was ever said about it . When my uncle lived o u t on the N iagara Boulevard h e worked across on the island , and h e ' d row across and ( go t o w o rk at the island clu bhouse . . . R.H: What island was that ? S.B: G rand Islan d . H e worked at the clubhouse and if h e want ed t o go to Buffalo why-he'd walk on up across t h e Island t o the ferry on the east side, take the ferry across over t o t h e m a inland, and catch a N iagara S t r e e tcar up t o Buffalo and b u y what he want e d . If they needed kerosene, o r coal oil they'd go t o B u ffalo and float a 20 o r 30 gallon barrel d o wn w ith a . . . on the outside of the boat , th is kerosene . . . R.H: Did h e pay duty on it ? S.B: No duty , no duty o r noth ing on it . R.H: That was g reat , t imes have changed and not always for the bette r . D id y o u e v e r hear of t h e N e w Orleans , the fer r yboat that went into the Inte rnat ional B r idge ? S.B: Oh, the New Orleans . Yeah , I've run ac ross the ferry boat , the New Orleans. R.H: S.B: ( She was a sidewheele r , what do you mean by a s idewheele r ? They had kinda l ike water wheels on each side. One on one s ide and one on the other and that's where they'd steer it, you see. It ( 43 ) �would m ake the one wheel work more and the other one stop. It was quite a t r ick t o get through the r iver when the ice was com ing down. S o m e t im e s they ' d have to go way down from F ort E r ie , from ( the dock, pretty near down to the Inte rnat ional B r idge before they could get across t o the other s id e , and then they' d have to c o m e b a c k up again . It w o u l d m ake i t a l i t t l e longer ri de. It was 1 5 cents to cross over on it . R.H: I just heard that the New Orleans h i t the Inte rnat ional B r idge one t i m e , d id it ? S.B: Yeah . . . R.H: Well, w e were talk ing about the New O rleans , and you w e re saying how they used to have t o go towards the Inte rnat ional B r idge t o . . . S.B: Yeah, in t h e w in t e r when the ice was flo w ing. They put that cable across now o r that . . . not a cable , but logs that hold the ice back , and they don't have as many b ig cakes c o m ing d o w n . R .H: A n d they don't have the fe r ry boats e it h e r , do they ? S.B: No , they don' t . W e used t o have to w a it our chance t o d r ive into the fe r ry and we'd have our t icket, and we'd c r o w d in, and there was t w o ca r s on each s ide of t h e centre of the boat . T w o on the left s i d e , and t w o on the r igh t . They would dock on t h e other s i d e , ( and they'd m o t ion u s for t o c o m e , and w e ' d have t o run up the gangplank and out on t o the land again. We'd then run around t o where the custo m s people would be. Th e n , you had t o go up quite a s t e e p h ill t o N iagara S t reet from F e r ry S t re e t , the doc k . It was quite the grade up there . W e used t o go up there quite oft e n . R.H: Do you r e m e m be r when D ouglas Hospital was built ? S.B: I do, but I don't re m e m be r too much particulars about it. R.H: Where d id you go before that was built ? Where di d people go when they were really s ick ? S.B: A lot of them never w e nt to the hospital. R.H: S o the doctor would come to the house , would h e ? S . B: The doctor would c o m e to the house . M y sister had d iphth e r ia and she would have been about ten years old , and she was s ic k for . . . oh, I guess six w eeks . She developed an abcess on the s ide of her neck, and the doctor says "Oh, I'd like to lance i t , but I' m scared of the Jugular v e in " . H e said "If I'd ever m ake a m iss , that'd be the end ( of it " . They poult iced it and then finally it b r oke , and she got better. (4 4) �That was just at the start of when they were giving the antitoxin . If you'd seen the mach ines they had when they came to fu m igate ( the place . . . R.H : D i d they fu m igate because o f the d iphtheria ? S.B: Y e ah , and they sent m y brother and I, there was just the three of us then. . . They loade d us up one n igh t , it was t e n o'clock , and they got us out of bed, put us in t h e sleig h , and drove out to our grand mo t h e r' s . W h e n w e g o t out t o o u r g rand m oth er's they h a d t h e b e d fixed up for u s , but i magine this , it was a s t raw t ick and not a . . . R.H: A s t r aw t ick ? S.B: A s t raw t ick that they slept o n , and it was piled up in t h e cent r e . I c a n s ee my grand mother and grandfat h e r , o n e on each s ide trying to level it down so that we could sleep on it that nigh t . We s pent about three weeks out there . When my s ist er got better the doctor said " W ell, we're a little slow in g e t t ing the fu m igation done, but oh, it w ill be alright t o b r ing them h o m e " , and he says "If they should contact it , we w ill know what it is right away, and w e can t reat it " . S o my m other was anxious to see m y broth e r , 'cause h e was the baby then you kno w , and s o they brought us h o m e . W e weren't home more than t w o o r t h r e e weeks when we came down w ith a ( sore throat . Oh , it was t e r rible . R .H: Is that how it started, w ith a s o re throat ? S.B: A sore throat . The doctor says "That' s what they have , but we w ill be able to use the ant it o x in on t he m , and that'll check the whole th ing " . I r e m e m be r him c o m ing down one night and they took a wash d ish w it h war m wate r , and they washed m y brother's back off w ith warm water and soap, and then the doctor gave us the needle . M y brothe r , h e screamed and h oller e d and he said " When I get big, I'll st ick that needle in you " . " That doctor ! " he says . Then they came in to m e , and I re m e m be r the doctor says to me "Oh, you'r e a man now , you won't be hollering like your brother, who's a baby " . I r e me m be r m e g r it t ing m y teeth and . . . It was k ind of a c rude m e thod . They'd get r ight in the centr e of your back you kno w , and s t ick the needle in. We had the needles and everything for 1 5 or 20 years afterwards . Dad jus t saved the m 'cause they would throw them out after they used the m . We weren't. s ick long, ( only a week o r ten days and we were running around again , you see. 45 �R.H: S.B: Yeah , D r . Buell. R.H: H e was from R idgeway, wasn't he ? S.B: ( Do you know who the doctor was ? N o , he was from St evensville . H e was the fam ily doctor. He went to the F ort E r ie Racet rack . He used to like the horse racing and h e won enough to buy h i m self an old H u p m ob ile . R.H: A n old what ? S.B: A n old Hupmobile . R.H: What is that , a H u p m obile ? S.B: A car . Well, that was the make of the m , and h e used to d r ive that . H e had t w o horses , and t hen the neighbour feller had t w o oth e r h o r s e s , a n d h e h ired t h e m s o m e t i m e s i f h is h o r s e s g o t t i r e d . They'd come t h r ough the mud, h e h a d a big fur coat , a big bearskin coat and he'd w rap it around h is legs and s it in t h e r e , and hang on t o the r ein s and let the h o r s e g o . H e had a . . . h e w en t at a a gallop . . . a t w o - w h e e l ca r t . H is satchel was in bet ween h is feet s o h e wouldn' t lose tha t , and h e ' d c o m e d o w n and the m u d w ould be flying t h is way and that way fro m the wheel s , and h e ' d pull into the d r ive way and my dad would go out and take the h o r s e and walk h i m aroun d , ( w h ile h e c a m e i n t h e house to s e e t h e s i c k . W h e n h e g o t back into the buggy the horse wouldn't hardly stand, you know, and the m inu te that h e'd get in and sit d o w n and p ick u p t h e r e i n s , t h e horse wa s right off l ike a s h o t . H e h a d a l i t t l e w a t e r s p a n i e l t h a t used t o c o m e in and h e ' d get a b o u t f ive m inutes r e s t , and then h e ' d have t o take off after the doctor again . He'd go t he whole round w ith h i m . H e used to b e m uddy and wet and tired, and he'd make the rounds w ith the doct o r . R.H: Did h e charge a lot for h is visits ? S.B: Oh , he never charge d , h e never charged much m oney . I don't know what he would charge , maybe a dollar or s o mething like that on the trip, never was much. A n y t i m e , day or n igh t , it d idn't make any d ifference when you called him , anyt i m e . You can i magine , it wasn't getting into a car and turning the heat e r on, and driving down. Now they won't go a block away from h o m e . R.H: S.B: ( I kno w . Did he leave m e d ication or did you have to . . . ? Oh, h e had the m e d ic ine right there . He'd m ix u p some of the stuff that he'd made up h i m self, and if he didn't have any, why-he'd tell (46 ) �m y dad t o come up to the office and he'd have it ready for h i m . R.H: ( Oh , y o u d idn't g o to t h e drugstore then ? S.B: No. R.H: N o ! Just r ight from the the doctor ? . R H: Just r ight from the doc t o r . We very seldo m e ve r went to the drugstore for anything. That's mode rn . R.H: Have you ever heard of the P e g - L e g , or the D ummy or the S andfly ? S.B: Well, the Peg-Leg was running from R idgeway into C rystal Beach, but that d idn't pan out at all . The D u m my , I used to t ravel that a lot . R.H: D id you ? Why d id they call it the D u m m y ? S.B: Well, I don't kno w . It was l ik e an electric c a r , that's all it was , and that's the na m e they gave it . I don't k n ow whether it s e e m e d to b e a d u m b th ing to r ide on it, I don't k n ow . Well, any w ay i t would hold around 2 0 or 2 5 passenge r s . They w ould make regular c ross ings back and forth every 1 0 o r 15 m inutes or s o m e t h ing. R.H: W h e r e w a s that , on the Internat ional B r idge ? S.B: The Inte rnat ional B r idge, from Fort E r ie to B u ffalo and back , you see. If a freight t r a in came . . . well they had the m . . . it would take ( you longer to get across , but if the r e was no t r a i.n on the l ine , he got the o k a y to go acros s , wh y-h e'd be across to B u ffalo in no t i me at all. If y o u w a n t ed anyth ing , why-you could buy rubber boots, and cloth ing a lot cheaper o v e r the r e , and you never paid too much duty on it . S o m e o f the m would say " O h , that ' s j u s t for your own self, f o r get it " . Th e y done t h at then, and of course dur ing the wart i m e they h a d t h e soldiers stationed there a n d gua r d ing t h e B r idge . There was one part icular one had M . P . on h is shoulde r , letters on h is unifo r m , and there was a young gi rl w ith the passenge rs , going across . . .I forget what w e were going across fo r , but she says "I wonder what that M . P . stands for " , and he straightened up to attention and h e say s , " M other's P e t " , and wheeled around . Now , the P eg-Leg ran from R idgeway to C rystal Beach , but I don't know too much about it , but I know it d idn't pan out . It ran on one rail, and I don't know if it was balance d by a wheel, it was s p in n ing at pretty heavy rate and that would balance it . It would go down the rail that way, but I don't know much about it . The D u m m y , I was on that , and ( then I was on another t rain that ran from the dock there at F ort E rie (4 7) �where the boat docked to E r ie Beach . There used to b e a t rain that run there, and that didn't pan out too long. There was something happened , I don't know , it just see m s that the m anager didn't manage it r ight and C rystal Beach t ook ove r , and E r ie B each then folded right down. That's all I kno w . R.H: Well, that was int e r e s t ing. Thanks very m uch for the int erview again, thanks a lot M r . Bea m . ( (48 ) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sumner Beam Location The location of the interview. Mr. Beam's home at 1235 Ridge Road North, Ridgeway Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Beam, Sumner Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of Sumner Beam's interview. He discusses topics such as: Life in Fort Erie before electricity, phone, etc Postal delivery Life on the farm Medicine in Fort Erie The Great Depression Gypsies in Fort Erie The Barnea Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 15, 1985 1930s 1985 Barnea Fort Erie Oral history post office ridgeway rose hearn sumner beam technology transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/5c31cb66b68035e0802a10ec3b975a6b.pdf 9b656f5d360f696f6f0f66789bf5aee0 PDF Text Text This is Rose H e arn int ervi e w ing Mrs. Florence Barlow 522 Kraft Road , Fort Eri e , Ont ario , and the date is O c t ober 2, 1985. R.H: Good aft ernoon Florence. F.B: Hi. R.H: C ould you please t ell m e when you were born ? F.B: Oh yes , February the 7th, 1913. R.H: And where w ere you b orn ? F.B: Buf falo, Ne w Y ork. R.H: When did you come to Fort Erie ? F.B: May the 1st , 1916 . R.H: What are a did you se t tle in when you cam e ? F.B: Que en Stre e t . R.H: Que en S tre e t ? Th at o f course w as the South End, righ t ? F.B: The South End. R.H: That was called Fort Erie though , wasn't i t ? F.B: That was called Fort Eri e . R.H: What w as the North End called then? F.B: Bridgeburg and the West End w as Amigari . R.H: And you settled on Queen S tre e t , what was Que en Street like then? F.B: I Oh ye s , it was a m uddy road and m y mother used to t ake m e across the stre e t to play with the little girl across the stree t on cert ain days, and her name is D olly Byers now . R.H: Were there any busine sses on Que e n Stre e t at that t i m e , or w as it stri ctly h om e s ? F.B: Well, it w as m ore residential but there w as a farm er next door that sold produce , but not as a st ore . R.H: F.B: Yes. R.H: What w as his nam e ? F.B: William Shisler. R.H: D idn't your parents have a farm there to o ? F.B: No , it w as later w h e n w e m oved t o Bertie Stre e t . R.H: S o , it w as a h ouse that y o u lived i n ? F.B: Yeah . R.H: What else c a n y o u t ell m e about the neighbourhood ? F.B: ( D o you re m e m ber his n am e ? Well, everybody w as al w ays friendly and helping everyone else . You never had t o w orry about your grass being cut or the sno w . . . (1) �Everybody helped everyone . R.H: ( Was there a lot of homes on that stre e t at that t i m e ? F.B: We ll, the same ones are still there . Up at the corner where the gas station is next to Irish brothers there, w as a w alnut tree, and Mr. Heisted used to hang a sw ing from it every sum m er. He had a little field where he farm ed, but to the back, and facing Walnut Stre e t . R.H: Was there a lot of little farm s on that stre e t ? F.B: No , there w as only that one as far as I kno w . Lat er, there w as a grocery store on the corner of Archange and Queen. R.H: D o you know what that w as calle d ? F.B: C arri ck's. R.H: S o , the roads w ere muddy, did you F.B: Ye ah , they w ere muddy and the cars used t o get stuck, the first .•• ? new cars out , and the horse and w agons used to pull them out. Mr. Shisler w ould bring his team and pull horses and c o w s out, anything that got stuck there . Mr. Heisted w as crossing the stre et with his cow one day and it got all stuck in the mud and he had t o get a horse to pull the cow out . ( R.H: S o , he kept cows, did h e ? F.B: H e kept c o w s , t w o c o w s because he had a little . . . The back facing the other stre e t w as like a little farm for ve getables and so on. R.H: Did he get milk from these c o w s ? F.B: W ell, you could just go t o t h e st ore and buy i t . R.H: But you don't know what kind of c o w s they were then? F.B: Holstein. R.H: When you w ere living there, where did your fam ily shop ? F.B: D o w n at Hapgoods which w as the st ore on Niagara Boulevard and it's next to Marian Archer's no w . I don't kno w who is in it now but it's at the corner of •.• That corner, what is it, that goes up there ? Is it Forsythe Stre e t on the corner of Niagara Boulevard ? R.H: What did H apgoods sell ? F.B: It w as a general st ore , gro ceries. Ne xt door w as a hard w are store, h e became mayor too . . . Haw ley! R.H: F.B: ( Oh ye ah , so Mayor Haw ley had a hardw are store too at one time ? Y e ah , he had a hard w are st ore there, and then next to that w as a house and t w o old ladies lived in there named Rainsford and there (2) �w as Y oung's, the Charles' w ere there . Where the be auty shop is, w as the post o ffi c e . ( R.H: Do you re m e m ber going in the post o ffice ? F.B: Oh ye ah, m any times. Mr. Plato , Em Plato w as there and then as a student, Harvey Troupe . He later became pos t m aster in the North End. R.H: What about restuarants, do you rem e m ber any in parti cular? F.B: Well, there w as a family room in the Anglo A m eri can Hotel where you could go in w ith the children. A cross the street, where H appy Jack's is n o w , was the . .• I don't kno w if they called it the Ne w York C a fe but that's where the t w o e ating places where , down there . Then also when you went down, there w as Elliott's Drugst ore and you could get lit tle snacks in there . R.H: What about a place you m entioned called the Olympia Tearoom , where w as that ? F.B: That w as in the North End on Jarvis S tre e t . R.H: Did you get up t o t h e North End very much ? F.B: No , only when w e could g o t o the sho w , the Bellard The atre . Not too much , because you had t o go w ith older people . I w as too young then and the South End w as closer. R.H: And of c ourse they didn't h ave the C entral A venue Bridge then, righ t ? F.B: No , no they didn't . You had to w alk all along the Boulevard and so when it w as cold, you didn't w ant to w alk all the w ay but usually you w alked everywhere . R.H: C an you tell me about the Olympia Te aroom , what it w as like ? F.B: Well, the thing that al w ays i mpressed me w as the st ained glass separation part b e t w een the booths. It w as very pret ty. R.H: Who owned that ? F.B: I dont kno w , he w as a Gre ek man. Later I think Valachos bought it but I couldn't be sure , but I don't kno w who had it first. R.H: Do you re m e mber anything else about Jarvis Stre e t ? F.B: Oh, when they t ore down the post office , I re m e mber that. There w as a big house with a big veranda with t w o lovely old people who alw ays used to w ave at all the kids. R.H: { This w as a house and it was on Jarvis Street ? F.B: Y e ah , well, it w ould be probably where the Royal Bank is no w . They used t o sit out there and I never kne w their name . All the (3) �kids would run over t o Jarvis Stre et after they'd been t o the high school and they'd sit and w ave . We'd go to the d airy, that w as Evere t t 's D airy and get snacks and things. It w as just across the stre e t from ( there . R.H: Is that where they built the post office ? F.B: No , they built the post o f fi ce on the side where the lady and m an used t o ••• R.H: Where this h ouse w as ? F.B: No , it w as next t o i t . Then they've gone up the street and I think that's the Royal B ank, I'm not sure . Eventually Rungs w ent where Canadian Tire w as, they had a st ore down there . Oh, there w as a corner candy store where w e used to go, it w as called Baker's. It w as on the corner o f C entral and Jarvis and that w ould be where the G&P Re stuarant is no w . R.H: Was Jarvis Street a mud stre et then? F.B: Yeah , it w as a mud stree t before they paved Jarvis. R.H: Do you re m e mber a paint and w allpaper st ore with gas pumps outside ? F.B: Briggs had that and they did h ave gas pumps and Dit chburn's had a hard w are st ore on the other side o f the street too. I think that ( would be where m aybe Stedman's is no w , or a little further up. R.H: What school did you go t o when you w ere living on Queen Stre e t ? F.B: D ouglas. It w asn't graded or t erraced like it is no w , so it w as all bumpy coming down. We used t o t ake pieces o f rug and slide down to the bottom all the t i m e . R.H: Was this D ouglas Stre e t you are t alking about ? F.B: Ye ah , there w as a hill and it w as a bumpy hill and w e used t o ride down on pieces of rug . They h ad w ooden steps .•• We'd cli mb all the w ay up w ooden st eps and when the fall w ould come and the rains or anything, and the w at er w ould run down under the w ooden steps and you could see it, and the old ••• I think i t w as probably gas pipes or some thing for railings and they w ould wiggle and the water w ould gather all in the bottom of the stre e t . The linesmen from the p o w er company w ould come with their hip boots on, put some boards down, and carry all us kids from the bottom steps across, t o get us in the drive . R.H: ( Were these steps for the entrance t o the school ? F.B: Yeah , t o go up the hill . . . no, t o go right up t o the hill. Oh, there (4) �w as a lot o f steps. R.H: To get t o this school? F.B: Yeah , right at the bottom o f the hill. There w as a little flat part and then some steps and another flat part and some m ore steps. This piping would all get loose on a rainy day and you could alw ays see the floods underneath. It scared m e . R.H: What w as the school like ? F.B: Oh , it w as a lovely school. R.L. Se xsmith, old Sekkie w e used t o call him , he w as t h e greatest. Y o u couldn't beat hi m , we had lots o f nice teachers there . R.H: It w asn' t very big, was i t ? F.B: Oh no, it h ad four roo m s then and a boardroo m . That's where they used to t ake you and strap you. We used to hear the kids hollering. R.H: C an you re member any o f your t e achers at all ? F.B: There w as Miss Campbell. She used t o sit under . . . There w as a little h a w thorne tre e and w e used t o sit there and e at and she alw ays sat w ith the students on the lunch h our. She w as al w ays so ni ce. R.H: So, you didn't have a lunch r o o m o r a gymnasium o r anything, di d ... ? F.B: No , as a m at ter o f fa c t , I w asn't supposed to have lun ch there be cause I only lived on Walnut . You had t o live a cert ain dist ance a w ay { for you t o bring your lunch. I used t o hurry back from my lun ch hour just to sit with the teacher. She'd t ell us all kinds of stories. R.H: S o , did you start going there when you w ere living on Queen Stre e t ? F.B: Y e ah , I started to s chool. I w alked and your mother didn't t ake you to school your first day. You w ent o f f and you couldn't w ait t o get t o school. R.H: Was it pre tty bad in the wint er ? F.B: Y e ah, it w as bad in the wint er and you w ere al w ays w ound up in a scarf, just your eyes sho w ing. We h ad mit tens and boots and we w ere exhausted from what w e w ore , rather than with struggling through the sno w . They had a sno wplow with a horse and the sno wplow used t o go up the stre e t , so re ally they w ere out e arly in the m orning . R.H: S o , of c ourse you m oved to Walnut S tre e t , when did you m ove there ? F.B: I think it was 1921. Yeah, my brother w as born there in 1921. R.H: Was that a farm ? F.B: That was a small farm , ye ah , my dad farm ed i t . R.H: Was there anything else around there be sides your lit tle farm ? (5) �F.B: Ye ah , there w as h ouse s. R.H: Just a couple of h ouses ? F.B: Oh no , Pauline Che ffins, Pauline Barnhart lived in the first one , then Mann' s , Evere tt's and the Wolbert 's w ere next . McLaughlin's w ere next then our place , then C arri ck's, Vale 's and Rodicker's. Th ere was a lot o f fruit trees and then it w ent on t o Meredith's. C apt ain S m ith, I never kne w his first name and his daugh ter Eloise , and then there w as Hubbard's. R.H: S o , that w as really residential then? F.B: Ye s it w as , except for Dunkle's, they had a little hot dog st and on the c orner and the Dunkle sist ers used to dance, Edna and Elmira D unkle . R.H: And did your father gro w his own produce ? F.B: Ye s, be cause he c ouldn't w ork. He w as gassed in World War 1. He did shoe repair crafts and then when everybody heard about i t , he opened a little shop. We had a little side shed and we had a little shop in there ••• R.H: What w as your father's nam e ? F.B: Arthur Naylor. R.H: S o , he had this little shoe shop , did he do anything else in the shop besides repair shoes? Did he t ake care o f anything for the h orses or anything like that ? F.B: Well, I h ad older brothers and they helped him. I h ad t o get up and milk the cow be fore I w ent t o s chool, w e had a h orse and a c o w and chi ckens , and rabbits for food consumption. R.H: Did you h ave any other jobs besides helping on the farm ? F.B: Y e ah , I h ad to pick ve getables because we pulled them around in a w agon and sold the m . R.H: Where did you go t o sell them ? F.B: Oh, just up and down Que en Stre e t and Walnut , Archange and Goderich Stre e t , that w as all single house s there . R.H: D o you re m e mber how much you got for the m ? F.B: Oh ye s. If you took them to the Racetrack, you got 25 cents a bunch for carrots for the horses and if you took them around the doors you only got five cents. We alw ays tried to put 12 in a bunch and size the m , so m any sm all and so m any large. ( R.H: S o , you went t o the Racetrack, what w as it like there ? (6) �F.B: My dad did, he w ent w ith the horse and w agon and w e had a surrey with the fringe on top. One time when I w as home from s chool, I w as sick, I asked m o m i f I could hit ch the horse but I couldn' t , ( be cause I w as too young but she let m e t ake it u p t o t h e s chool and pick up all the kids and we w ent up all around Erie Be ach. R.H: D o you re m e mber anything about Erie Beach ? F.B: O h ye s. R.H: What w as i t like there ? F.B: It w as beauti ful , it w as like a park. It w asn't all concre t e jungle like it is no w , the grass looked like it w as cut with a razor blade, it was shaved. The H opi Indians used t o come every year w ith their big snakes and put on this sho w , this perform anc e , and it w as the first time I had ever seen that. The Indian ladie s used t o nurse their children while the men w ere performing and I'd never seen that , people nursing their children. That w as fascinating to me too, the Indians sitting out in the park, but the p ark w as so beauti ful. It w as all tre es and there w as a lovely D ance Hall, it was be auti ful. It had an upper de ck, a terrace with little t able s. It h ad a place you could buy food and you could look down on the dancers. I rem e mber one orche stra came c alled the C ali fornia Bears but I can never ( re m e mber his nam e , the guy who ran the band. There w as a beauti ful s w i m ming pool and there w ere games downstairs under the D ance H all and then you w ent out t o the s w i m ming pool and you rented the bathing suit . • • R.H: Y ou rented the bathing suit ? F.B: Ye s, you did in those days but you'd bring your o wn c ap and they had all these gray w oolen things, they were it chy and they w ere down to your knees. I asked h o w they cle aned these bathing suits, I said , " What do you do" . Well, they ran the hose on them, they had them all hanging and they ran the hose up and down on the bathing suits and then they dipped them in a ble ach w at er and hung them back up . Well, you used to think, you are w e aring a bathing suit som ebody else took off. It w as a quarter to s w i m and rent the bathing sui t . R.H: F.B: ( C an you t ell me about some of the rides they had there ? Oh ye ah , they had ride s. They had the Bluestreak and you know , that w ouldn't be so high now t o what they m ake the m , like the (7) �Cyclone at Cryst al Beach . They had a skating rink and they had a little . . . On one side o f the D ance H all there was the pool .•• This side w as the w ading pool for children and then they h ad the s wi m ming ( pool on the other side. A t the t i m e , I think, that w as the largest s w i m ming pool around, publi c s w i m m ing pool. R.H: Did i t have a deep end and shallo w e nd and so forth ? F.B: Oh yes, and life guards. One fello w s name w as Uri Sahri and there w as a girl, Flo Southard . I think she be came Western Ne w Y ork diving champion. I re m e mber they w ere the li fe guards and they w ere alw ays very care ful with the kids. R.H: Have you any idea why Erie Be ach closed ? F.B: It w as the Depression whi ch came in 1929 and it just about closed a lot o f things around here. They couldn't t ake t w o be aches like that , Cryst al Beach w as still running in Fort Erie and t o get there you came on the lit tle train from the ferry dock. R.H: I w as just going t o ask you about that , like h o w did you travel t o Erie Beach? F.B: They used to stop at what they called Garrison Bay for the Garrison Road , they used to come in and the little train ran. . . Well, the train stopped and w e ran over from W alnut Stre e t and got on the ( train there . R.H: Was that called Garrison Bay? F.B: Y e ah , w e called i t Garrison Bay ' c ause w e used t o s wi m there all the t i m e . We could s wi m there in the sum m er and skate in the w inter b e c ause the water came right in, came right in over the road w ay, right where the Parkw ay is. The old Millrace w as there . R.H: The old Millrace ? F.B: Ye ah , they had an old mill but that w as kind o f gone , the h ouse that w as . . . that h ad the mill when i t w as still there , Berger's, people name Bergers had that . When they built the Peace Bridge , that's where they housed the divers. We used t o go and get the doughnut s from the c ook at the cookh ouse there . He used t o m ake doughnut s for the kids every day. Right after s chool w e w ould go and w a t ch them put these huge abut m ents in for the Peace Bridge. They'd w ind up helmets for the divers and then they w ould pump the air and w e 'd go over there and we w ere so fascinated by i t . I think that's why it's so w ell m ade. The traffic on that Bridge no w , you'd (8) �think it w ould cave in but I'm sure .• • It w as rat tling the other nigh t . R.H: I go over on that all the ti m e. F.B: Ye ah , I kno w but it took us 35 m inut es t o get over the other night. R.H: Tell me some thing, did you go on these little trains t o get to Erie Beach ? F.B: Ye s, and H arry McLure • .. We used t o call it the Sandfly Express, the Snakehill Express, the Dum my, all though they called the Dum my by another name too. R.H: The Dum m y w as the one that ran over the International Bridge too, w asn't i t ? F.B: Y e ah , but w e called this one the Dum my too. R.H: S o , this Harry McLure , w as he the engineer? F.B: No , he w as the t i cket t aker, " Albert S treet" h e used t o shout . He had t o call out the names o f the streets and they st opped at A lbert Stre e t too. We called i t the Sand fly Express because when th w indo w s w ere open , that brought them in and you couldn't sit on them 'cause they st ained your clothes so, i f you h ad light clothing. The st ains never came out and w e used to brush them all off the seat and then sit down. ( R.H: D idn't they call it the Pe anut Express t o o ? F.B: Oh ye ah , the Pe anut Expre ss, we had lots o f names. When someone w ould say " Are you going to Erie Be ach t onight" we'd say, " Ye ah , let's cat ch t h e old Snakehill" . It w as so nice Erie Beach, m y mother used t o t ake us when w e w ere kids. They had a lovely picnic ground and they w ere the first place to sell soft ice-cre a m . They had i t years be fore anywhere else . R.H: Did they h ave concession st ands there ? F.B: Oh yeah , all through there. You could get w a f fles, i ce-cream , candy and then they had all the gam e s you could play. They had the Funh ouse , my m other t ook us once and she said "I'll sit out here , you can play a half an hour" . We w ent in, my sister took us in and w e came right out , she h ad looked around and came out the exi t , so that w as a fast trip . We w ent in the entrance and she w ent right to the exit, it w as a slide . R.H: F.B: { D o you kno w anything about the Bardo! family? Y e ah , a little bit . They used to have little fram e w ork cars, just the fram e w ork and they would put a board on the m . . . Edgar w as (9) �the friendlie st. They had a cart , the bottom o f a car, like the wheels, four wheels and they had the engine and everything and they'd sit and ride all around the park. They h ad a zoo there too and he used ( to give us kids a ride . R.H: You m e an Edgar did ? F.B: Edgar, Edgar w as the youngest and then there w as Bob and then there w as Frank. They w ere older, m aybe t w o years older than I. I re m e m ber the dad slightly 'cause he used to w alk down the park and I only saw the m other once but they had a lovely home j ust out side there . R.H: Where was it located ? F.B: It w as across fro m the Waverly and in fact, that W averly w as a se cond dance hall. R.H: The Waverly Hotel w as a dance hall at one t i m e ? F.B: Ye ah , we used t o w alk through all the bushes and w oods there and w alk up to the Waverly for the second dance h all but it never m ade a go of it. It had nice t ables just like it has now and the m iddle of the dining room was the dance floor. R.H: ( Did they sell liquor there ? F.B: Oh no, it w as all like soft drinks and you could get that at the other dance hall too. R.H: Did you have t o pay t o get in to the Waverly? F.B: No , because you bought ti ckets and you paid so much a dance like they used to do, three tickets for a quart er. R.H: Did they h ave live musi c at the Waverly? F.B: Ye s, they h ad live music too and of course , w e never w ent for all this disco. It w as alw ays live bands at Erie Beach too. R.H: You lived down where they built the Peace Bridge, what h appened when they w ere t alking about building the Peace Bridge ? Didn't some o f the residents have t o sell their h o m es ? F.B: Well, they w ere requisitioned and they had t o sell. We lived in a rent ed house , $12 a m onth and that w as the Rainsford's . . . R.H: The Rainsford's? F.B: They w ere t w o old ladies that owned i t . Their house was down ne xt t o Charles , Charles Drygoods S t ore , and I used t o h ave to go and pay the rent and she w ould alw ays give us an orange or an apple . I used to love t o go there . R.H: S o , you had to m ove there ? ( (10) �F.B: R.H: ( We m oved t o the West End from there . And no w your house w as sold then? F.B: Yes, it w as sold to the Peace Bridge. Our house w as m oved and w e m oved with it, up the hill, Queen S treet hill. The poor cats w ere running all over the house going crazy. R.H: Where did you m ove t o ? F.B: It w as m oved up t o Lavinia Street and somebody bought it up there. R.H: S o , did your family buy the lot up there and F.B: Well, whoever owned the lot bought the house and put it there. ••• ? We w ere still renting for that m onth then we m oved up to the West End. We didn't o w n that house . R.H: Y ou didn't own i t , oh , I see. F.B: They got $12 a foo t . R.H: S o , you had to m ove out of there ? F.B: Ye ah, w ell, everybody I think rented on the street. I don't know that anybody owned their own house, the Wolbert ' s m aybe. Some of them m oved further down, where there w as a fruit orchard. Some of the house s moved further down the stre e t . R.H: ( C an you re member the Peace Bridge being under construction? F.B: Oh, we w ere there every day. R.H: Were you ? Where did some of these people live that w orked on the Peace Bridge, did they board in the area ? F.B: They boarded and s o m e a s I say, lived i n the old, what we called the haunted house . R.H: Where w as that ? F.B: Oh, I suppose it w ould be where the first abutm ent is, o f the Peace Bridge. Well, i t w ent over i t , the two abutm ents, I think it w as under there anyw ay. It w as a grand old house but it had been ne gle cted, it had a slate roof. We t ook slat es home and rode on them. That's where the men, a lot of the men and the divers stayed. R.H: So they m ore-or-le ss kept that place t o house the w orkers in? F.B: Yes, and there w asn't any windo w s in some o f it because when they w ere there in the sum mer ... I don't know where they w ent in the w inter. They probably boarded locally. R.H: What was the name o f that stre et where the house w as, so you know ? F.B: That w as Erie Stre e t no w I guess, what they call Erie. Where the parking lot is for the trucks now, I think it's called Erie Stre et. (11) �Keyes lived on that street and White's and C ole m an's. Colman's house is m oved up the Garrison Road , it's still around and so is McLaughlin's. It m oved to the other side o f W alnut Street. It's probably t aken for a brokerage now , I don't know , Walnut Street is just ruined as far as I'm concerned , i t's sad. R.H: Did you w a t ch the divers when they w ere building the Peace Bridge ? F.B: Oh ye ah , we thought it w as the gre atest thing. It w as fas cinating be c ause we w ondered, if they ever quit pumping, oh , they'll die under there . You think of all these things. It w as am azing how those w ere form ed and how they could push the m . I suppose they are no w eight under the water. I don't know how they pushed them int o place and anchored them down. They didn't stay up very long, they w ere up a while, then back down. R.H: Do you re m e mber the opening o f the Peace Bridge ? F.B: Oh yeah. R.H: Did you go t o that ? F.B: Oh , did I go to that ? I'm not that dumb . I could t ouch the Prince of Wales foot and Prince Ge orge's fe e t . R.H: ( Why their f e e t , w ere you s o little ? F.B: No , no. There w as a st and w i th a flag or a bunting around it and there w as a space like . . . My brother w orked on the Peace Bridge , he w as an i m m igration offi cer and he forgot his lunch. So , I said to my m o m , "I'll t ake it down" . " Oh , you can't come in here" they t old us and I said , "I've got my brothers lun ch" they said, " Oh , okay" . I said , "I've got my girlfriend" so, they let us through . We w alked past the revi e w ing st and , I got in like that . He led us along the side and I got in, but I couldn't see my brother anyw ay. He had aprehended a pi ckpocket in the crow d and he had the poli ce and they w ere kind o f grilling him or what ever you call it. So, h e never got his picture in that picture you see of them all been t aken on the Bridge . They also w alked past and shook h ands with the Prince of Wales and Prince George . Well, he w as never in that picture. There 's a m an that looks like hi m , Earl Johns, so, everybody says, " Oh , I know your brother is in that picture " . They looked so much alike . Well, that w as my excit e m ent for that day. We ran all the w ay along the Boulevard be cause of the parade and everything. R.H: So, there w as a parade that day? (12) �F.B: Oh yes , there w as a parade and those planes that were flying over, I'm sure they w ere , at that ti m e. There w as a heli cop t er and those little plane s, I'm sure there w as things like that going over the ( Peace Bridge b e c ause we w ere as fas cinat ed w i th the planes, i t w as 1927. There w as a helicopter but w e didn't call them helicopters, we called them autogyros. I w ent up in one several times. In 1935, the Leaven's brothers from . . . brought their planes t o the aircraft field there and they took you up for a penny a pound. I w ent up for 99 cents. I gave him a dollar, "I w as a big tipper" , I t old him . I was friendly with the para chut e jumper, him and I got friendly ' c ause my m o ther sent him cup cakes. The Leaven's bro thers w ere so nice . R.H: Did you say one o f the Le aven's brothers w as the parachut e jumper? F.B: No, the parachut e jumper w as Clem Ennis. I got kind o f friendly with him 'cause we fed him and t w o other girls and I brought him hom e . S o , every time he w ent up for a jump, I got a free ride . I used t o go up and then he'd jump. He'd jump just over the field in Fort Eri e . R.H: F.B: Oh, just one of t h o se li ttle World War 1 ones. R.H: H o w m any people c ould get in that plane ? F.B: Just the one jumper and the one other person. R.H: Well, when he jumped out , what did you d o ? F.B: Oh, I w as sitting in t h e b a c k seat . R.H: Who w as flying the plane ? F.B: f D o you kno w w h a t kind o f plane it was ? The pilot who w as one o f the Leaven's brothers and there w as another seat and I used t o sque eze in with him. Well, I w as only 99 lbs. R.H: Oh, I se e . I w as w ondering. I thought he had left you to fly the plane . Ge tting back t o the Peace Bridge opening, w as . . . ? F.B: I'll t ell you something else , did you ever hear anyone t alk about the medi cine m an that came next to Happy Jack' s ? What 's the name of that place . . . King- Wah ? R.H: May Wah ? F.B: Y e ah , there w as a little field there , like it didn't have anything on i t , well, there w as a h ouse , Muskroph's house and this fellow came t o town and he sold snake oil. He sold snake oil for all your ( ills, aches and pains and he used to put the w agon up and lift up (13) �a hood t o the w agon and he w ould put these flares, like these big ... I suppose it w as kerosene t orches and then he'd put on a Pun ch and Judy sho w for the kids. We just loved it, be cause he w as alw ays ( punching Judy out and Judy al w ays fought back. Then he w ould give this pit ch and it w ould be about 35 cents for a bottle of the oil. R.H: Did he come here every year ? F.B: No , m aybe not every year. There w ould be a run on them for t w o or thre e ye ars and then you w ouldn't s e e him for a couple o f years and then he'd come ba ck. He al w ays came back to the same spot, right down by the baby-hole . R.H: Would that be around the '30s then? F.B: Oh, the '20s because I w as gone in '26 from the South End, so, it had to be the '20s. R.H: Did any of the pe ople buy this snake oil ? F.B: Oh yeah , sure they did. Oh, Poppy Kohl did. You've heard of Poppy Kohl who owned the but cher shop across the street from there, you've heard about him m any ti m es ? I bet nobody ever kne w why he w as called Poppy. ( R.H: No , I've never heard of that ni cknam e , why was he called that ? F.B: He was called Poppy because he bought the largest poppy, he alw ays bought a dollar one. So , we started calling him Poppy Kohl. Th ey were usually ten cents but he'd al w ays give you a dollar for the large one . I'd get them from the legion and then run like hell to sell i t to Poppy. R.H: So, you sold poppies on re m e m berance day, did you ? F.B: Oh yeah , I sold them for ye ars. Well, my father w as a vet eran, he couldn't help , he w as alw ays in the hospital so m o m had to raise seven kids. It w as t ough but i t w as fun. Kids don't have fun like that anym ore . R.H: C an you t ell me anything about this Gasoline Alley, why w as it called Gasoline Alley? F.B: It w as called that because Mr. Bell h ad the gasoline t anks there. It w as a little ... you can't call it a gas station, it w as m ore like a repair shop with pumps. It w as right behind where the Parkview is, you had t o go up the alley, it w as called Johns Street. We called ( (14) �it Gasoline Alley because he had the ••. probably because o f the comic strip too. He used t o t ake us t o Sunday s ch ool down at the ( Angli can Church every Sunday. R.H: And didn't they h ave a furniture place there or somethin g ? F.B: That w as further up , you have to cross Archange and I guess i t w ould be t h e next one and he w as over o n t h e righ t . That used t o be our school, that's where I went to kindergarten for half a day be fore the Furniture Exchange w as in there , and i t w as a library too at one t i m e . It w as the s chool , the library, and then the Furniture Exchange . R.H: What w as the name of that s chool ? F.B: They used to call it Gasoline Alley S chool. That's what I called it. R.H: Gasoline Alley S chool? And that w ould still be on John Stre e t ? F.B: Y e ah , opposite the . . . I don't know i f it's still there , opposite the hotel and Rose's lived in the hotel at the t i m e . The Rose family, you've probably heard all about the m , right ? R.H: F.B: She w as a Kraf t , Mrs. Rose w as a Kraf t . R.H: Was she J .L. Kra ft's sister? F.B: Oh yes. R.H: And her name w as Mrs. Rose ? F.B: ( Wasn't Mrs. Rose relat ed to the Kraft fam ily? Yes, Art Rose , I don't re m e m ber her nam e . There w as Al, Bob, D oris, Isabelle . . . She w as a sister t o J . L. Kraft but they called him Lou, Lou Kraft , they called h i m by his middle initial, I guess. He used t o s w i m in the pond they h ad on Kraft Road. I don't know when it w as named Kraft Road but the first homest e ad is there down t o w ards the Kraft's and then they m oved up on the corner of Cre scent and Dominion , but by then he w as probably gone . On our stre e t , Kraft Road , where I live , they are all descendent s of the Krafts, they w ere in the first five house s, but not no w . There's another sister, Mrs. Learn, she had 12 children in there . R.H: F.B: Well, it w asn't a hotel a t that time , it w as their h o m e . R.H: It was their hom e , but that's where t h e h o t e l is no w , righ t ? F.B: ( S o , Mrs. Rose , she lived in that hotel at one ti m e ? Ye ah , and then they moved up t o . . . R.H: What is that hotel called ? F.B: The Erie Lane Hotel. Th at big place w as their h o m e. They h ad (15) �tennis courts at the side in the sum m er and they w ould let anybody play on the m . They had a skating rink, they put a skating rink in ( there and we all skated there . R.H: They let the kids skate there in the w inter ? F.B: Oh yeah . Did anyone t ell y o u about the rum runners? R.H: Oh, we are trying t o find out what w e can, what can you tell m e ? F.B: What w e used to d o . . . We had a t ent and w e could sleep out in the backyard. R.H: Where w ere you living at this time ? F.B: Walnut Street, and my brothers, my t w o older brothers used t o come and get m e and w e 'd go and lay on t h e embankment and w a t ch the rum runners and the coast guard , and they'd fire on them too. R.H: Did you see anything interesting when you were w at ching the m ? F.B: You only heard the coast guard shouting t o the m , "You'd better pull over" and then, they'd speed aw ay. They didn't use the motor on the boat , they w ould row across and a lot of the times they w ould put the liquor in . . . like feed bags, bags w i th the . . . instead of throwing them out singular, they could qui ckly t ake a bag and dump i t over. They say that in those days, a lot of liquor w as retrieved from the river, e spe cially when they tried t o cross the river, in fact, there ( w as a very sad incident where a cop fro m Buffalo shot his o wn son. Do wney, their name was. R.H: Was his son living here at the time ? F.B: I don't know . I only rem e m ber that, 'cause I re m e mber the big do in the paper about it, that he had shot his o wn son. They'd cli mb up on the bre akw all . . . R.H: What happened, was he killed ? F.B: I don't re m e mber but there w as such a fuss about that . It w as a shock that his son w as a rum runner. Oh, there w as lots of fascinating things going on when w e w ere kids. You didn't need any m oney to have fun, our m oney w as 21 cent s a w eek. We used t o go to the sho w on the West Side in Buffalo. We didn't get the quart er, we got 21 cent s 'cause it w as six cents for the boat fare , five cents for your candy, and ten cents for your sho w . My m other had so m any kids , she had to dole out the 21 cents instead of a quarter. So, m ost of the kids w ould get a soda at the Gree k shop and I w ould ( alw ays buy five cents w orth of candy 'cause I had three younger (16) �brothers and I used t o bring the candy hom e . R.H: Was the lit tle candy st ore on Jarvis Stre e t ? F.B: No , no , this w as on the West Side in Buffalo. R.H: So, the candy shop was in Buffalo ? F.B: Y e ah, on the hill, Dehart's it was called, and my sister w orked there as a young girl. R.H: When did you start w orking and where ? F.B: I w ent t o w ork . . . my sister had a hot dog st and d o w n at the baby-hole . I w orked from 11 t o 11, seven days a w e e k, five dollars a w eek. R.H: H o w old w ere you then? F.B: 14 years old . I w orked there for t w o years and then I w ent to w ork for Me sservey C o mpany when I w as 16 . That's where they m ade the Christmas tre e lights in Fort Erie. R.H: Where w as that ? F.B: There w as an old church that burned down, on Court wright Street. R.H: Y e ah , but what's the nam e of the place ? F.B: Me sservey C ompany. In fact, that place ble w up, there w as a gas leak. There w as an old church there and they used it t o m ake Christ m as tre e lights, in fac t , I used t o do the soldering. R.H: H o w long did you w ork there ? F.B: Well, about . . . I w ent there in 1929 and it burned down in '31. It ble w up, i t was a gas leak. It w as a funny thing , I went out for food one day for the w orkers, they used to send m e and they'd say, "You run fast ". I w ent for food and I came back and all the w orkers w ere half sle eping . We h ad a long hose , gas extension hose . It was a long hose and it w as le aking , they w ere all half asle ep. I w e nt around opening the window s, shaking everybody, saying, "What's wrong ". "Oh , I'm sleepy" one girl kept saying. The o w ner, he w alked in that nigh t , he lit a m a t ch to find the s w i t ch and . . . R.H: What w as the nam e o f the factory owner? F.B: His name w as Me sservey, the same as the factory. R.H: [Did you say he drove hi m self t o the h ospital after the explosion?] F.B: He drove right a cross the Peace Bridge to Buffalo to the h ospi tal. The flesh w as h anging o f f where he w as burned. He lived a week and he said "He w ould rebuild " but of course , he died. Oh, he w as a big m an, he w as athle t i c , and he could fight but I guess h e w as (17) �so badly burned ••. but h e drove over himself. We w ent to the hospital t o see him but he w as a m e ss. ( R.H: Where did you after that place burned down? F.B: I w ent to the Arner C o mpany. R.H: Was that the pill factory ? F.B: Yeah , ('art er's little liver pills. We used t o ship them to England and England sent them back and everybody thought they came from England . We didn't have enough seats so we sat on a tin can t o w ork. We had to shake the m , t h e pills, to take all t h e cracked ones out . We did all that by h and and then later w e got m a chines to fill the bottles. I w orked on e m erald oil and i f it w as .. . R.H: What about w ages, how m u ch did you m ake ? F.B: Oh, I m ade $11.75 and that w as good. R.H: Was that a week? F.B: Yeah , and I w as only gettin $8 at Messervey's. At the Arner C ompany, they'd let us pick our o w n hours. It used to get so hot with all that glass in there , they'd let us come in at six instead o f eight and go home at four. We didn't w ork short hours in those days, you worked from eight to six. If everybody w as agre eable, we could come in ( e arly. We ran out of there and there w as swim ming right across the stre e t . R.H: How long did you w ork there ? F.B: I w ent to Antidollar after that. R.H: What w as that ? F.B: The Antidollar on Queen Street. C ook-Waite Laborat ories they later became. They did anesthetics for dentists. R.H: What did you do there ? F.B: I filled all these cartridges with .•• for your teeth, with instructions and everything. . . There w as quite a cre w there, 12 or 13 people w orked there. R.H: Who owned that company? F.B: Oh . . . Waite , his nam e w a s Waite from Springville, Ne w York. I can't think of his first nam e , but Waite w ent in with Windsor and it became the Cook-Wai t e Laboratories. There w as another little business there •.• I w as there fro m '33 t o '43 and the w ar w as ... My mother w as very ill and I needed t o m ake more m oney so I w ent ( back over t o Buffalo t o w ork. I changed my w ages from $17 t o (18) �$71 a w e ek. I w as able to buy a bond a w e e k at $18.75, a w ar bond. R.H: ( D o you think the w ar cre ated m ore jobs in Fort Eri e, w as there m ore jobs ? F.B: I think there w ere , because they h ad Fleet and I think e verybody was w orking. I kno w I had three jobs during the D epression, and I w as glad for one job . R.H: Y ou had thre e jobs , how did you m anage that ? F.B: Y e ah , but my brothers couldn't get a job. I w orked at the Arner C o mpany, I w orked at the Antidollar and then I w orked at the Buf falo Skating Club every Sunday at the Arena. R.H: Our Arena ? F.B: Y e ah , the Fort Erie Arena, it caved in in 1936 , I think it w as. R.H: What did you do there ? F.B: I w orked at the hot dog st and. We h ad it for the hockey night games and sometimes I w orked three nights a week there and then all day Sunday at the Buffalo Skating C lub and then back Monday m orning at m y Antidollar job . The boys couldn't get a job during the D epression, in fac t , my brother w ent out o f town and they cut w oods and forests, they m ade roads through some o f the w oods and forests. R.H: What w as the name of the hot dog st and where you w orked ? F.B: I t w as just called Elsie's. R.H: ( Is that the one you worked at , for the Buffalo Skating C lub or was that your sisters ? F.B: No , no, that was in the Arena and my sisters w as down at the baby hole . R.H: D o you re m e mber any o f the guys that played on the Buffalo Bison's Te am ? F.B: Oh , the h o ckey players used t o come t o our parties. We used t o h a v e parties all t h e time and they w ould alw ays c o m e and they w ould tre at us like young kids anyway. R.H: Who had the party? F.B: They w ere m ostly at our house ' c ause , when one of the kids w anted to have a party and they couldn't have it, m y m other al w ays let them h ave it at our house . We lived in the West End and w e kne w all the ho ckey players. You'd always see them around t o w n , w alking the stre ets and . . . The kids missed a lot . ( R.H: Did you kno w any o f the hockey players nam e s ? (19) �F.B: Oh yeah, there w as Gamy Lederm an and Harry . . . Oh, gosh, I probably could have t old you all of them if I didn't have to tell you now. They broke the w indo w b oxing with my girl friend. My brothers ( got boxing gloves for Christ m as and we w ere having a February party and this girl w as boxing with the m and she ducked and he put the boxing glove right through the windo w . My mom she w as gre at, she used t o m ake everything for the party and then say, " W ell, I'm going to bed, have fun and don't bre ak anything" . When she came down after she said, " Oh, gone w ith the w indo w " . R.H: What else have you got for m e ? F.B: When I lived in A m i gari . . . When I first m oved t o A m igari this fas cinated me be cause the fire company had a truck down here in the South End . I m oved to Amigari and they still had a fire hall w i th the cart s. Som ebody had t o bring a horse and hook it up to them. They still had the horse and w agon and that w as on Russell Street. At the Race track, they used to have a band play b e t w e en ••. a live band play be t w een . . . you could hear it all over town playing 'I' m Looking Over a Four Le af C lover' . R.H: ( Do you m e an b e t w e en ra c e s ? F.B: Yeah, b e t w een ra ces. They h ad a band. They w ere all up there when a local kid w on, Johnny Pissaro on a horse c alled Play Flow er. All the It alian people w ere w ith him, all the Purpuras and Fredos and everybody w as lined up against the fence. R.H: You m e an they w ere on Gilm ore there ? F.B: Yeah, w e w ere on Gil m ore le aning up against the fence there and they came around and Mr. Fredo hollered " Who w on it"? R.H: What kind o f race w as that ? F.B: It w as regular racing. R.H: This Johnny Pissaro w as riding the horse ? F.B: Yeah, he w as riding the h orse and he be came quit e a gre at trainer. He w as the le ading trainer at one time. He died very suddenly. R.H: I heard that a lot of people w at ched the racing across from the Grand Trunk, is that right ? F.B: Ye ah, we used t o all go up to the fence and being sm aller •.• They had the drainpipes and we used to craw l through the drainpipes, my girlfriend and I and w e 'd get in to the Racetrack. You weren't ( supposed to be there unless you were 16 . (20) �R.H: What w as it like there at that time ? F.B: A t the Racetrack? Oh, it w as gre at. I w as w alking through one time and this fello w said, "Hey Jo ck, do you w ant to draw some ( w ater for the horses"? S o , I stopped and I h ad sailor pants on, w e used t o w e ar t h e m all t h e time and he said , "D o you w ant t o draw some w at er for the horses"? and I said "Sure ". So , I dre w some w at er and som eone cam e along and said, "Hello Florence " and he said, "God , you're a girl ". He gave me a buck which w as a lot of m oney then, and it w ent so far. Oh, i t had such a beauti ful, entrance, the Racetrack. You h ad t o w alk around w ith the flo w ers on either side , it w as gorgeous. They had one turf race usually at the last but they quit that. R.H: What is a turf race ? F.B: When they ran on the grass. I had a book called 'Flat Iron for a Farthing' and I w as reading it one time and the st ory w as supposed to be in 1899 and they said, "Le t's go t o the races ". It was set in Buffalo and they said, "Le t's go to the races in Fort Eri e " w ell, that fas cinated me. I kept that book for ye ars and I don't kno w w h a t h appened to i t , but i n there it said, 1899, so they m ust have ( been running then. R.H: They had the Bertie Fair there too, didn't they? F.B: Ye s, they did. They had all the games, the ring toss games. We w ere just t alking about things that my brother-in-law at the Bertie Fair gave to my nie c e. That w ould be about '31, '32. R.H: What games did you play there and what could you w in ? F.B: Well, it was the ring t oss gam es, you thro w a ball and so on ••• The prizes are still be auti ful, they w ere like a cream and suger, yello w chickens and then he w on salt and pepper shakers and a coffee pot which he used 'til it burned out . It lasted about 50 years. R.H: Did you go to the Bertie Fair? F.B: Oh ye ah , alw ays. R.H: What else did they have there ? F.B: They had lots of things for s chool kids. You could enter your hand wri t ing and any proje cts you m ade , and quilts, be auti ful quilts, jam s and jellies. They had the contests where you w on the prize s just like the Welland Fair but on a sm aller s cale. They used to h ave the Toront o races there . R.H: D idn't the farm ers have races there ? (21) �F.B: Oh ye ah , the farm ers had races but the Toront o ra ces came there too but just for the Bertie Fair. They'd have all these heats where they could .•. that w ould go on most of the day. They'd have a band , they got prize s and ribbons. There w as m oney prizes too, like t w o dollars for s chool kids or something and you could buy lit t le things there too. R.H: Did you h ave to pay t o get in? F.B: I don't kno w whe ther you did or not because the s chool kids had ti ckets to go, so, I really don't kno w . I re m e mber when I got older, I w on a hotdog eating contest there. You only had to eat one hotdog, so fast , and you ate it from a string. I got a two pound box o f chocolates for that . Did anyone ever t ell you about the dumps? R.H: No , tell m e about the dumps? F.B: They w ere at the t op o f Que en Street where the t o w er is there, well, just beyond there, i t w as all down in there . That w as our biggest adventure on a Saturday m orning. R.H: What w as the dumps, actually ? F.B: Everybody used t o dump everything in there like bicycle parts , m y brothers built their bi cycle from there . There w as part s for boats and I used to get the broken dolls and broken beads. Mom used t o m ake us undre ss outside the house after that. We'd come home with all kinds o f paint and everything that people had thro wn a w ay. It w as the gre atest adventure . My brothers used t o say, " Saturday m orning, the dumps" . R.H: Y ou've heard o f the Dummy, did you ever go on it ? F.B: Oh yes , w e used t o go on at the North End and you'd end up in Black Ro ck. W e only w ent over because it w as a ride. I didn't like it because i t w as open and you could see the water. R.H: Did some pe ople w orked that Bridge ? F.B: Y e ah . R.H: D i d they h ave a path there ? F.B: No , they w alked right along the side there . There's no w alkw ay, there's just •.• R.H: So you didn't like using the Dummy, why? F.B: Well, w e used t o ride over just for the ride . We w orked down there on C ourt wright S treet and sometimes w e 'd ride back w ith the guys that came from Buf falo to w ork at this pla ce where they m ade (22) �Christmas tre e lights. W e 'd just ride over w ith them, have a soft drink on the other side and then w e 'd ride back. We used t o do ( that on payday. R.H: Did you go to Cryst al Beach? F.B: Not too much because that involved a car. So , what w e did a couple of times w as, we w ent to Buffalo and t ool: the boat over. Harold Austin used to play on that boat . You had t o come all the w ay back in t i m e t o cat ch the ferry and come h o m e. R.H: What was the boat called ? F.B: The C anadiana. I bough t a souvenir on there when I w ent on the first time, ' c ause you think you w eren' t going t o go on again. It w as really out of our w ay, from Fort Erie on the Orleans, City of Toledo or whate ver, and then you had to get a bus down t o the end of Main Street and then go over there and come all the w ay back. R.H: S o , the only w ay you could get to Crys t al Beach w as either by car or this boat , right ? F.B: Y e ah, by this boat . Well, I don't think they h ad the busses. R.H: Did you go m ore often when you were grow n ? F.B: Oh yeah , all the t i m e . I w on a w altz contest with Joe Barone, I ( used t o go w ith Joe B arone. That w as another box o f chocolates. We didn't know w e w ere in a dance contest . We ran in and the guy said, "The dance is half over ". We sai d, "We don't care, we don't w ant t o miss it ". They started to com e over and t ap people on the shoulder and they'd leave and I said, "Some thing's going on " then, we w ere the last ones left, we w on i t . R.H: What w as t h e D ance Hall like ? F.B: It w as beauti ful, it w as a big D ance H all and it was w ell t aken care of. They had t i cket t akers all the w ay 'round the floor, you didn't have t o hurry t o the place and you danced by ti cket there too. R.H: D o you re m e m ber any of the bands? F.B: I don't re m e m ber • .. Well, I re m e mber one time I think, Bob Crosby came there but I don't just re m e mber. Y ou just used to go and dance . R.H: Is there anything else you re m e mber about Cryst al Beach? F.B: Well, the C yclone , we w ent on that high Cyclone. Another girl and I were crazy about that . We used to ride that all the t i m e , ( b u t after a fellow g o t killed on it w h e n w e w ere u p there one time . . . (23) �He just stood up and splattered .•• R.H: F.B: Oh, I w as in my t e ens then. R.H: Was that in the '30s then? F.B: ( How old w ere you when this h appened ? That w ould come up late '30s or early '40s. So they lo w ered that Cyclone after that . R.H: S o , you were there when this incident actually happened ? F.B: Y e ah , I w as there with a fello w from Buffalo, a poli c e m an. He pulled me a w ay, the guy was w e aring a wh i te suit and all the blood over his white suit ..• The pe ople on the ride said, "H e just stood up and thre w out his arm s above his head and fell" . It w as t errible. R.H: What else did they have there ? F.B: The Caterpillar, that's wh ere you did all your kissing. They h ad the Funhouse there , that w as great ••• R.H: Do you kno w who ran the Funhouse ? F.B: No, I don't kno w but I kne w the kids that w orked there . The H all's son did and I think Hall's w ere conne cted with the Beach fore ver. R.H: F.B: ( What about doctors, who w ere some of the doctors you re me mber? I only kne w Dr. Clark and Dr. D ouglas that I ever rem e m ber. Dr. Clark w as up on the corner of Bertie and Battery. R.H: Was Dr. Douglas your family doctor ? F.B: Yeah . R.H: Where was his practice ? F.B: Right on Niagara Boule vard opposite Eugene A gre t t e 's place and there w as the Cust oms and Im migration next door, that's where you landed. R.H: That's where you landed when you came over? F.B: Yeah , it w as during World War 1. R.H: Do you re m e mber the rationing during the second World War ? F.B: Oh yes , it w asn't very fair rationing, not like they had in Brit ain. But t er w as 26 cents a pound . . . R.H: Did you have ration books ? F.B: You had ration books with coupons and milk was about 11 cents a quart and you al w ays w as rationed, you had t o give a ti cke t for m ost o f the dairy products and the bacon. R.H: ( It wasn't too bad then ? F.B: No , I didn't think it w as t o o bad. Well, there w as only mom and (24) �I , my brothers w ere all out to w ork. We didn't have a car so w e didn't need gasoline . ( R.H: Was gasoline hard t o get then? F.B: I think that w as one of the tougher things t o get. I'd hate t o think no w , with people with five cars in the family, how they'd m ake out . R.H: Do you know anything about the boxing m a t ches they used to have here ? F.B: You m e an where the Le gion i s ? Did I t ell you about that ? R.H: No. F.B: We w ere t alking about that 'cause girls and women w eren't allo w e d in there . My brothers u s e d to dress m e u p in their clothes . . . R.H: Where w as that no w ? F.B: I t w as where the Le gion i s and that w as the Town Hall and upstairs R.H: This w as on Que en, right ? F.B: Y e ah , Que en Stre e t , and upst airs where the b al cony w as , t o look ••• down on the boxing and wrestling too. My brothers used to dre ss m e up in their clothes and pull my h air back and t ake me with them. We w eren't even supposed t o be in there 'cause w e w ere too young. We'd creep on our hands and knees so they wouldn't see us and get ( up on that balcony and look through the railing and see the boxing and the wrestling. R.H: It w as legal, wasn't i t ? F.B: Oh yeah , it w as legal, it w as just that our age and w e w ere kids R.H: Did they have a boxing ring and everything there ? F.B: Y e ah . R.H: Did a lot o f people go t o see these m a t ch es ? F.B: I didn't think too m any w ent but of course t o m e , m aybe it didn't ••. look like a good crowd. To m e , it didn't seem like m any people w ere there . You know that library, Mrs. C ousins used to re ad to the kids . I just re m e mbered that . R.H: Was Mrs . C ousins the librarian ? F.B: Ye s , she w as and so did m y sister Elsie read t o the m , Saturday mornings. She'd say t o my brother Ri chard "Y ou've got t o com e , I'm reading at the library". He'd say, "We're going to the dumps ". R.H: When the Peace Bridge w as being built , did you go over there a lot ? (25) �F.B: R.H: ( Oh ye s, w e had the bus servi ce. There w as a bus service from Fort Erie ? F.B: Ye ah , right from the North End, they had a bus service going past down here . R.H: What was it called , do you know ? F.B: I can't re m e m ber. R.H: You can't re m e mber who ran that servi ce ? F.B: Not when it was first opened. They alw ays used t o stop at the hotdog st and , the driver did. R.H: Where did they stop ? F.B: Ne ar the place where I w orked and later the driver's name w as Peachi, that w as_ his last nam e . R.H: Did you e ver go on the ferryboats? F.B: All the t i m e , we alw ays w ent t o the West Side . On a Saturday night we w ould go shopping over there to Wool w orth's on Grant Street. Yo u w ould see everybody over there o n the Wes t Si de and then at the foot o f the street w as Sargent's and Zellin's Fish and Chips. Well, it w as called Sargent's and Zellin's. R.H: ( So, getting back t o the ferryboats, did you F.B: Ye ah , I t ook the ferryboats and it w as three cents for kids and then • .• ? it got t o be a ni ckel. In later ye ars before they closed, fello w s w ere com ing o n and playing guitars and you could request a number, they'd play it and then they w ould t ake up a colle ction, but that w as later. I re m e mber one o f the Rose boys, Alf Rose , we w ere coming on the ferry and he came running up and he jumped on and he said , " We m ade i t " . We w ere just com ing in and he thought w e w ere le aving. R.H: D o you re m e mber what any o f the ferryboats looked like ? F.B: Ye ah , we used t o ride out on the ferryboats, jump in the w a t er so w e c ould ride back on the w aves from the paddle-wheels. R.H: Did you jump o ff the ferryboat s ? F.B: Ye ah , w e jumped o f f the ferryboats to s w i m . We jumped right off the back and then we dived off into the w aves that came from the p addle-wheels. It w ould ride you right back t o the dock. R.H: So, you paid five cents t o get on and then dive o f f ? F.B: No , we'd sneak on. We used t o swim in the river and then the ferryboat guys w ould let us have a fre e ride back 'cause w e didn't have any (26) �m oney. R.H: ( Do you kno w who any of the guys w ere ? F.B: No , well, one w as called Billy Hulse and then there w as a Fort Erie m an who worked on there for ye ars called George Senn, they were brothers-in-la w . His wife's still around, she's D olly Byers sist er that I m entioned. R.H: Y ou m entioned some thing about Mr. S e aton, Peanut s Seaton, could you t ell me .• • ? F.B: He had a brokerage o ffi c e . R.H: Where w as that ? F.B: Well, it w as • .• I guess it w as opposite the Anglo Hotel, I think it w as next t o where Happy Jack's is. They've filled up the space no w , he had a little offi ce down there and he w as also on Walnut S tree t . R.H: Did he sell insuranc e ? F.B: Ye ah , and then he had the brokerage. He w as the only broker that they had in those days, that I re member. R.H: Was Pe anuts a ni cknam e ? F.B: Ye ah , I think his nam e w as Bill. He w as a little short fello w , re al ( jolly and his sister w as the principal o f Phipps S treet S chool, Rose Se aton S chool. R.H: Did you ever go w a t ch the baseball gam e s ? F.B: Oh ye ah , down at the end of B o w en Road, yeah , b e cause I had a boyfriend who w as playing ball. R.H: What team did he play for? F.B: Oh , Erie Be ach. R.H: Oh, Erie Beach had a baseball team ? F.B: Yeah , I don't kno w who sponsored them • • . no , it w as Bulle ts Shoes that sponsored the m . They had a shoestore on Seneca Street in Buf falo . R.H: But the name of the team w as Erie Beach ? F.B: No , no, they called it Bulle ts Shoes but all the guys w ere from Erie Be ach. There was a Cre s cent Park t eam too there . R.H: Where did they play? F.B: At the B o w en Road diam ond , that w as the only one there . Fort Erie had a gre at team but they w ent to a lit tle to w n named Deloro ( and they lost . All the pe ople were w aiting at the train for them (27) �t o come back thinking that they had w on. Th ey w ere all at the train station celebrating . It w as a little town named D eloro and that w as where my husband w as born. They had t aken the pennant ( and it w as only a little . . . Well, it's a company t o w n you'd have to call it, the houses w ere all built and they paid them t o have seats for rent and they h ad one st ore and they beat the Fort Erie team . R.H: What w as the team called , was it called the Fort Erie Baseball Team ? F.B: I don't re m e mber who sponsored the m , m aybe Mentholatum . H orton Steel men played on it but I j ust can't re m e m ber. R.H: What w as that baseball diam ond like down there , w as it nice ? F.B: No, it w as just a sand lot to m e , just like you had on any field. They h ad nice ble achers and that , but there w as . . . It w as the only place to go so of c ourse it got a lot of use , it never w as overgrown. They h ad a lot o f good ball players in Fort Erie in those days. R.H: You said Mr. Seaton w as on W alnut Stre e t , did you F.B: He w as on Walnut Stre e t but be fore that he w as down on the Niagara • • • ? Boule vard . R.H: ( D o you re m e mber Sullivan's ? F.B: Oh ye ah , the be s t fish and chips you ever t ast ed. I 'v e been t o England and I kno w they w ere the best , the best I e ver tast ed. They w ere al w ays so ni c e , and it w as so homey, such a homey place to go. R.H: Have you any idea when he opened that place ? F.B: Well, when I w as a kid the Rhodes w ere there , pe ople named Rhodes and when he bought that place •• • The original house is the t op floor where Charlie live s. He put the fish and chip shop underneath i t , otherwise Rhodes lived there and then Muskroph's, they w ere there too. R.H: S o , that 's been there since what . . . ? F.B: Oh , it's a long t i m e , I couldn't even tell you, did you think t o ask Charli e ? R.H: What w as next door t o Sullivan's at that ti m e ? F.B: Pong Ki m ' s Laundry. He used t o do the uni form s up for all the girls that used to w ork in the Antidollar Company. He was so nice, he used t o bring us Christ m as treats, lichee nuts and things like that and ginger. H e 'd send t o Vancouver for them , you couldn't ( even get them around Toront o. He'd send them t o his relatives (28) �there and then he had his family, he still had his family in China. I used t o pack Christmas parcels for them and do his shopping for the m . The kids w ould send pictures out o f the catalogue s that they'd get over there . I'd go to Si mpson's or Eaton's and I w ould shop for him , so then, he w ould do my uni form for fre e. It cost 35 cents for the uni form , that w as a lot. R.H: Did he close down? F.B: We've often spoken o f that , we don't kno w whether he closed down or died or what . It w as bought up , and Sco tty Miller had a candy st ore there , near Sullivan's, right in there. I w ould have to go down and study the whole w at erfront 'cause w e used t o swim from the baby-hole down to what w e called the hot sands, that's dire ctly behind H appy Jack's and that are a h ad beauti ful sand. The re ason w e called it the hot sands was, it w ould burn your feet. It w as terribly hot down there , the baby-hole w as flat ter, there w asn't much sand. R.H: So, that w as all taken a w ay because of the businesses then? F.B: Y e ah , and then filling in w ith the retaining w all along there. It all fitted in to that area, that's where the train ran past , the Sand fly Express and the To.,nerville Trolley . . . ( R.H: What w as it calle d ? F.B: The T�pri erville Trolley. Everyone had a different name for i t , the Snake hill, the Sand fly • •• R.H: I gue ss that was quit e an interesting area at one tim e , w asn't i t ? F.B: Oh , it w as a beauti ful area because the Old Fort , it w asn't rebuilt . . . That w as about 1939 when they started restoration. R.H: So the Old Fort w as still in ruins up until then? F.B: That was all like it had been during the w ar when it had fallen down. There w as a big bri ck w all 'round the front of it too. They say the Anglican Church is built from the stones from the Old Fort. R.H: S o , when you w ere a kid the Old Fort w as in ruins? F.B: It w as all falling down. We played all over it and there w as like moats. In the spring all the ice and sno w w ould melt and the m oats w ould fill up , but otherwise in the sum m er it was all grass. Pauline Che ffins m other used to have the parties for Pauline and Christine , they both had July birthdays and she'd t ake the Sunday in bet w e en the birthdays and she used to baby buggy the ice cre am m aker and ( take us and have the party and m ake the ice cream right there . (29) �F.B: To the Old Fort . She used to push it up in the baby buggy. Poor little Benny, he'd have t o w alk. They had a nice park there and f they kept the grass real well, it's al w ays been w ell kept. I felt sad when it w as restored , i t w as a good place for kids. R.H: You said that some of the bri cks from the Old Fort w ent to build the Angli can Church, righ t ? F.B: Ye ah , that's alw ays been the st ory around to wn. R.H: D o yo u re m e mber t h e date it w as rebuilt ? F.B: I thought it w as 1939 when that was restored, I thought w e had a parade and e verything. There w as so m any things going on. I loved the South End. R.H: I guess i t w as very interesting 'cause you could see everything that w as going on. Is there any other activities you can tell m e about ? F.B: The gre atest activity w as when they had spe cial days at Erie Beach. Crowds w ould come over, they'd have spe cial days like they still do at Crystal Beach and they sold you a strip o f ti ckets cheap , to use on the rides and everything. The people w ould flock over and they w ere alw ays so dolled up . Everybody w ore their long skirts and white blouses, big hats, they w ere j ust beauti ful. There w as ( long chains on their handbags, I rem e mber all that ' c ause my m other had one and I alw ays w anted t o play with i t . It j ust was so sad when the stock m arket crashed in '29 and the Bardol's couldn't afford the Beach. Hardly anybody went in 1930, there w as no m oney. We used t o w alk to the Beach though i f we didn't have the fare. R.H: You would w alk t o Erie Beach then? F.B: Ye ah , nothing see m ed t o far in those days. R.H: Thank-you very much for the super int ervi e w Florence, I really enj oyed i t , thank-you so much . F.B: I thoroughly enj oyed it too. It's nice bringing back all the old memorie s and I lived i n such a t i m e when everything w as so ni ce. ( (30) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Rose Hearn Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Florence Barlow Location The location of the interview. Mrs. Barlow's home at 522 Kraft Road Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Barlow, Florence Description An account of the resource This is a transcript of Florence Barlow's interview. She discusses topics such as: Queen Street Shisler Farm Life on the farm Restaurants and hotels Olympia Tea Room Jarvis Street Schools Walnut Street Race Track Erie Beach Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 2, 1985 1980s 1985 Erie Beach olympia tea room Oral history Queen Street race track rose hearn shisler farm streets and avenues transcripts walnut street http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/973bbd241254c24f48f92d969a2f75ce.pdf 9c00a391f3572aa8df4441bf1804fc27 PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer intervi e w ing Mr. William Athoe in his hom e a t 3836 Highland Road o n July 26, 1985. S.R: Hello Mr. Athoe , how are you? W.A: I ' m very w ell thank you. S.R: What is your date o f birth ? W.A: M ay the 2nd in 1 9 0 2. S.R: Where w ere you born ? W. A : I w as born on the corner o f Ridge Road and Bertie R oad, in Bert i e To wnship . That's t h e old bri ck house where t h e Fenian R aid w as fought in. S.R: W ere there hospit als then or did the doctors c o m e t o the house or w ere there m i d w i v e s ? W.A: We h a d d o ct ors. There was D r . S chneider i n Ridge w ay and . . . o h he avens, I can't think o f the fello w in S t e vensville n o w . Dr. Buell was ther e , but he c a m e later. Oh, we h ad do c t ors and we w ere advanced a f e w ye ars ahead o f m i dwives I gue ss. S.R: Were there any kind o f hospi t als a t all, h o m e hospitals or anything like that ? W.A: I don't kno w. I kno w w h en my oldest son w as born my wife had t o g o t o Fort Erie t o . . . Mrs. Jim my Quested had a m at erni ty hom e that sh e ran. I t w as a private home and two o f my children w ere born there and the o ther one was born in this house upst airs. S.R: That m a ternity hom e , where w ould that have been in F ort Eri e ? W.A: I believe it w as on Dufferin Stre e t , but I don't kno w the address o f everything anym ore . S.R: Have you lived in the area all your life ? W.A: All but three years that I w as in N e w Y ork City. S.R: Where in Ridge w ay did you grow up? W.A: Well I gre w up on the farm there on the corner of the Bertie Road and Ridge Road. I was there until I was a b oUt sixteen or seventeen. S.R: And then you m oved here ? W.A: And then I w ent to Niagara Falls for a year or t w o and w orked down there, then back t o Ridge w ay and in 1925 I w ent to N e w York City and w ork there '25, '26 and '27. Then I come back here and built this house in '28 and got m arried and have been here every since . S.R: Back then, who w ould have helped you build the house ? W.A: Who w oul� have helped m e ? Well Carl Pooler and his sons w ere (1) �the carpent ers that I had help. J ohn Benner and M orris Huffman w ere t w o brick layers that I had h elping m e . { S.R: C ould you tell m e what s chool you attended and where it is lo cat e d ? W.A: Well, my childhood school days, public school days, w as in number ten and that w as on t op of the hill there do you kno w where Frank ••. N ashes used to b e , or you must kno w where number ten .•. ? S.R: D o you kno w the stre e t ? W.A: Well it w as on the Garrison Road , but it w as just about t w o or thre e hundred yards fro m the Ridge R o ad on the Garrison, Num ber Three High w ay. S.R: Ho w far a w ay fro m your home w ould that have been? W.A: Half a m i l e . S.R: Oh, so it w as just w alking to school then ? W.A: Well, i t w as pre t ty rugged in the w intert i m e when . . . no sno wplo w s or anything ...I m ean big truck sno w p lo w s or anything like that . E verything w as, any banks or anything had to be shovelled out by h and and it w as only horse and buggies or cut t ers anyhow. W alking to school, I kno w we used to walk and be looking down at the fences, the road w as dri f t e d in be t w een the fences and w e ' d be above the { fences looking d o w n at the m. S.R: You still had t o w alk then, there w as no other w ay ? W.A: Y ou had t o w alk, ye ah. There w as no buses, no . . . w ell there w eren ' t any buses that ' s f o r sure ..• no t e a m s or horses o r cutt ers o r w agon sleighs or anything. S.R: D o you kno w approxi m ately what year your school w as built ? W.A: Well, they wouldn't le t you stay I think now they except the m at .•• five years old in schoo l , but they w ouldn't until you w ere six at that t i m e . So I start ed at , when I w as six , and my te achers name w as Miss Gleason. And the teacher be fore her was, originally w ent t o Fort Eri e , and w as Mrs. Oscar Teal , and her name w as Anna Murphy. But I didn ' t go t o Miss Murphy, I w ent to Miss Gleason, but my brothers and sisters all w ent to Anna Murphy whi ch w as Mrs. O s car Teal, later S.R: • • • lived in Fort Eri e , Jack Teal's mother. C ould you describe your school, h o w it was when you w ent and if there w as any changes or anything like that, any additions? ( W.A: Well, the seats w ere, when I first w ent t o school w ere aw ful old and they w ere m ore or less slatted seat s . Boards about that , 2�-3inche s wide and nrobably four of them. And once i n a while one w ould (2) �g o down and the other one w as coming up , you'd get a nice pinch. But later they w ere all rene wed with ne w seat s , all one pie c e w ith ( rounded backs and nice curved seats and everything. The sides w ere w ainscotted up about four feet high, all dark grey colour, and plast er above that . High ceilings, about t w elve feet high I gues s and the h e a t , i n t h e w intertime t h e h e a t w as all up at t h e ceiling and your feet w ere fre e z ing . S.R: H o w did they heat it ? W.A: W i th a big, long w ood stove and the w o od they used t o take and burn, it w as thre e feet long. It w a s long enough you could put three foot w ood in there . The farmers around used to supply the w ood and we kid s alw ays had to c arry i t from the w oodshed built on the b a c k of the school. We had to carry it in and keep a big w ood box full o f w ood out in the boys coatroom. It w as carried from there into the s t o ve, a.nd later they got natural gas around. They had a big long gas pipe in there, with h o les drilled through, that gas used t o come out, and they used t o light that and then put t w o or three blo c ks o f w o od in and turn this gas on and s t art the w ood. And as soon as the w ood got burning they'd turn the gas o f f t o save ( gas. While w e had it, it was very s c arce. There were very fe w w ells around and , but now that later they got a lot o f w ells and it w as pipe d in fro m o ther places t o o and they have m ore of it . I guess . . . ! think the last few years there, quite a few years there, it was heated w ith gas only, no w ood at all . S.R: C o uld you d e s cribe the outside o f your building, like h o w m any room s i t had , colour, anything that you re m e m ber about the building itself ? W.A: W e ll, it w as a light-red bri ck building and it w as bri ck all the w ay as far as what could be brick, all but the roo f and the w indo w s. It w as all one roo m and all the classes w ere fr o'm •.• , that w as be fore grades. They all w ent by readers at that tim e , first , second, third , fourth readers and then they had first and second in e ach one ye t . Y o ur junior fourth, then you went senior fourth and from there you went and tried the entrance examination and if you passed that you w ent to what they called the Continuation S chool here in Ridge w ay, whi ch is the old Masoni c Hall next t o Bickell's S t ore in Ridge way, now at the present time. But it w asn't high s chool w ork, they called it fifth grade w ork, but it was the same as, about the same as nin th grade w ould be t oday in high school. (3) �S.R: ( That's just as far as education advanced then ? W.A: That's as far as I w ent was grade nine , yes. It w ould be the same as grade nine no w . S.R: Did they have i t any farther than that ? W.A: Pardon ? S.R: Did they have education any farther than that , or w as it just on to college ? W.A: I think that if you w anted to advance any farther than that they had t o go t o college and I think it w as Ham ilton where m ost of the m from around here w ent . A n d t h e normal s chool of c ourse for t e a chers w as in there t o o . S.R: Could you d e s cribe any changes that took place in your s chool? Is your s chool s till there, or i f not why? W.A: Well, Buf falonians I think, got com ing over here in large numbers and built cot t ages and some year 'round homes, in, what is now c alled Ridgew ood and Oakhill Forest, and they got so m any kids c o m e in there t h a t t h i s o n e room school w as not suffi cient anym ore and it w as t orn d o w n and this four room s chool w as built there, that' s ( there no w . But that ' s no longer used . S.R: D o you rem e mber approxim ately when it w as t orn d o w n, what year? W.A: No, approxi m ately I w ould say maybe t wenty ye ars ago, that ' s probably t w enty ye ars old that s chool that 's there no w . Th at w ould t ake it back what, sixty-five? 1965, I w ould think w ould be s o m e where near close to it , when it was t orn down, the old s chool. S.R: Are you, or have you been a me mber of a church? W.A: Yes I belong t o the United Church here in Ridge w ay. It used to be the Me thodist Church when I w as a kid and w ent t o Sunday S chool. S.R: And where w as that located in Ridge w ay ? W.A: Its on the corner of Dominion Road and Ridge Road. S.R: D o you kno w approxim ately when it was built or who it w a s built by, or have there been any changes in it ? W.A: Well, there's been numerous changes. The Sunday S chool w as built out on the north sid e . That w as all ne w and the room on the east where they have their dinners and e verything out there now . They play basketball out there , that w as all added to i t . I don't know what years, but not too many years ago. The big auditorium where they hold their dinners and things out in there, I built that , laid the blocks and bricks on the outside and plastered it on the inside . (4) �Th a t m u s t h a v e b e e n about , o h , it m u s t have b e e n c l o s e to t w e n t y y e a r s a g o t o o , I g u e s s . B u t t h e y w e r e all a d d e d ne w , t h e S u n day ( S c h o o l r oo m s . Then they had a , t h e y had a . . . oh what d o you c a l l it w h e n you s it u p on t o p? S.R: B a l c o n y? W.A: B a l c on y , y e ah . T h e y h a d a b alc ony u p above, o n the west e n d of t h e church , and a s t a irw ay l e a d ing up t o i t . and sit up in t h e r e . Y o u c o u l d go u p t h e r e W e used t o ride a bicycle f r o m o u r fa r m into Sunday School and mother always saw that we got there t o o . We always had t o tell her what the lesson was about and everything after we got home, or we found out what. There was no way of going and playing ball someplace and come home and say we were at Sunday School. S.R: Do you recall any special events the church had to offer the family? W.A: My own family? S.R: The church families. Any special events the church had to offer for the families to attend or participate in somehow. W.A: Well, the weddings, many of the weddings took place there, and a lot of the funeral services were held there. ( In fact, most of them, or all of them practically, were held there until Mr. Hary Dell, the undertaker at that time, built a funeral home where Larry Williams is now. And after that a lot of the funerals, of course, especially unless it's an extra large o n e , then they go to the church, but most of them are held at Larry William's Funeral Home now. That was built by Harry Dell o r ig inal l y . S.R: Did churches always h a v e w e d d in g s or d i d w e d d ings u s e d to take place in the h o m e ? W.A: W e l l , lots of t h e m do in t h e h o m e s a n d l o t s of t h e m u s e d to h a v e t h e m in t h e i r a r c h w a y s out in the b a c k y a r d if it w as a n i c e d a y , and if t hey h a d a bad day the y ' d h a v e t o go in t h e i r h o u s e s . the archways ... ! If i t ' s can r e m e m be r be ing t o a c o u p l e d i f f e r e n t o n e s u n d e r arch w a y s . S.R: Was it a ve r y popular p r a c t ic e t o h a v e t h e m in t h e h o m e or in t h e c h u r ch ? W.A: ( W e l l , I t h ink t h e b i g g e s t p a r t of t h e m e s p e c ially if t h e y w e r e w h ite w e d d in g s , w e r e in t h e c h u r ch . S.R: Do you r e m e m be r any p r o m inent m e m be r s of t h e c h u r c h o r c o m m u n i t y and t h e spe c ia l t h ings t h e y m a y h a v e done? '�' �W.A: W el l , four of t h e s o u t h w in d o w s in t h e c h u r c h w e r e p u t in w it h n ice c o l ou r e d g l a s s a n d l e a d e d glas s , b y d iffe rent c h u r c h m e m be r s . ( I k n o w t h e o n e w a s p u t in t h e r e b y t h e S h e r k fa m il y , t h e H u g h S h e r k fa m il y . T h e r e w a s anot h e r o n e by t h e Mann fa m il y . They were w onde r ful w in d o w s , b ig , h ig h , g o t h ic w in d o w s , a n d a l l t h e p i c t u r e s of a s h e p h e r d c a r r y ing a la m b w it h a b i g c r oo k s in one t h ing , a n d anoth e r on one o f t h e m . Oh , I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e o t h e r s w e r e , b u t t h e y ' r e beaut iful w in d o w s a n d r e a l l y c o s t a l o t of m oney. E ven in those d a y s it would cost a l o t of m on e y . S.R: A n d y e t th ey w e r e d o n a t e d ? W.A: Y e s , t h e y w e r e d o n a t e d by t h e fa m il i e s . T h e fa m i l i e s w o u l d p u t it in h o n o u r ing th e i r . . . l ik e , I t h ink W a r d S h e r k p u t t h e one i n f o r h is fat h e r w h o w a s M r . H u g h S h e r k . p u t t h a t in . I d o n ' t k n o w t h e M anns , w h o O l d A d o l p h M a nn, I th ink h is one s o n Ge o r g e p r o b a b l y w a s t h e one f o r t h a t . I d o n ' t k n o w w h o t h e o t h e r t w o w e r e act u a l l y . . I . don't know who put the other two in. t h e o n e , s o u t h s id e . T h e fou r of t h e m a r e a l l o n T h e y ' r e beau t i f u l w in d o w s . . . s t il l t h e r e . S.R: ( W h o is t h e f i r s t p o l i t ica l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e you ca n r e m e m be r ? W.A: Po l i t i c a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s ? W e l l , y o u m e an local o r . . . B il l W il s o n I w ou l d s a y w a s o u t f i r s t m e m be r t h a t w e h a d r ig h t h e r e f r o m R id g e w ay. He was a local R i d g e w a y m an. S.R: H is d u t i e s and h is t it l e ? W.A: H e w a s a C o n s e r v a t iv e . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r he e v e r . . I d o n ' t t h i n k . h e e v e r got t o be a C ab in e t Me m be r . S.R: Do y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t d u t i e s he h a d to do in the t o w n ? W.A: N o , not s p e c i f ically , only t h e , w h e n e v e r he was cal l e d u p o n , p e o p l e w ou l d g o to h i m a n d want s o m e t h ing a n d he' d have t o go and take i t up w it h his, w h o e v e r w a s the C a b inet Minis t e r you k n o w , and t h e y ' d have t o take it u p w it h him a n d try and ge t it for h i m if he c o u l d . S.R: D o you know w h a t t i m e t h i s was , h o w m any y e a r s ago o r w h a t y e a r ? W.A: A h , bac k in t h e . . . h e h a d t h e M o d e l T F o r d Agency, s o it w a s back a r ound , about R id g e w a y . 1 916. H is first opponent w a s Dr. S c h n e i d e r f r o m H e w a s t h e Libe r a l t h a t M r . W ilson ran agains t . Schneider l e f t h e r e and s o l d t h e b u s i n es s , h is d o c t o r ing p r ac t ic e o u t h e r e ( a n d w e n t t o N ia g a r a F alls , b e c a u s e N iagara F alls u s e d t o b e i n t h is r i d in g . there ..• A t t h a t t i m e it w a s c o m b i ne d . I t h ink h e w e n t d o w n the. t a l k w a s h e w e n t t h e r e f i g u r ing h e w a s g o i n g t o m a k e (6) �a lot of f r iends. If h e went t h e r e a b o u t t w o y e a r s b e fo r e t h e e l e c t i o n , h e ' d m a k e a lot o f fr iends and g a r n e r a lot o f v o t e s d o w n t h e re. ( W h e t h e r it w o rk e d o r it d idn' t I d o n ' t kn o w , but B il l W ilson beat him by q u i t e a m a j o r ity anyh ow. S.R: A n d y e t he w as f r o m a l i t tle t o w n l ike R id g e w ay. W.A: A l i t tle t o w n l ik e R id ge w ay yeah. S.R: W h a t a r e s o m e of the changes t h a t have taken place in t h e a r e a , , l ik e , at one t im e i t used t o b e Bertie Townsh ip ? W.A: Yes, we used to have o u r o w n Bertie Township C o u n ci l , C o u n ty. . T ow n sh ip Council here in Crystal Beach likewise and Fort Erie. At that time . we used to have a Reeve, and a Deputy Reeve, and three Councilmen, and they had the same at Crystal Beach. And then they come along and told us it was going to be a lot cheaper, they'd have a lot less men if they got the...oh what do you call it now...the ...l've gotten terrible ...the Regional Government. They come out and told us Regional Government was going to be much better and cheaper and everything, and they wouldn't have near as many, it would save us a lot of money. At that time our Reeve was getting about seven hundred dollars a year, Deputy Reeve was getting about four hundred. ( I know, my brother was Deputy Reeve for quite a few years. It was going to eliminate, out of the five years, it was going to eliminate them all but one. We were going to have one Aldermen here, and ' one from Crystal Beach, and one from Stevensville I believe at that time, and the Mayor, and four or five Erie. A ldermen from Fort If it had stayed the salaries on the same levels t h e y w e r e w h e n they w e n t t o R e gi on al i t w o u l d have been a l r igh t , b u t r i g ht , away they t u r n e d a r o u n d and uppe d t h e m . w ha t they g e t now . Up in t h e thousands . I don' t kno w , h e a v e n s , . .! b e l ie v e o u r Mayor n o w · is g e t t ing t w e n ty- s ix t h o u s a n d or s o m e t h in g , m aybe e v e n m o r e . S.R: W h a t is y our o p in io n of t h e a m alga m a t io n of all t h e villages ? W .A: I th ink i t ' s . . . I t h ink i t ' s the w o r s t t h ing we e v e r h a d for t h i s c o m m un i t y , I h o ne s t ly d o . F o r th is reason . . . if I w a s t o go d o w n t h e r e n o w a n d a t t e n d t h e counc i l m e e t ing w ith a c o m pla int , o u r r e p r es e n t a t i v e f r o m h e r e in R idge w a y , a n d t h e o n e f r o m C ry stal B e a c h , w o u l d b e p r o bably t h e o n l y t w o in t h e r e that w o u l d know w h a t I w a s talk ing about r e g a r d ing a s t r e e t , or a cutoff s t r e e t , full o f m u d h o l e s , o r p o t h o l e s , or s o m e t h in g . T h e y ' r e t h e o n l y t w o t h a t ' s l i s t e n ing t o w h a t I am s a y i n g , t h e o t h e r t w o a r e s i t t ing t h e r e g a b b ing a b o u t (7) �s o m e thing e n t irely d iffe r e n t . A n d at that t i m e w h e n I w e n t in w ith a c o m plaint t o t h e Cou n c il d o w n h e re , they all knew e x a c t l y w ha t I w a s t a l k i n g a b ou t , a n d t h e y all s a t t h e r e l is t e n ing and e v e r y t h in g , a n d w h e n I g o t t h rough . .. w e ll I t h i n k w e s h o u l d d o s o m e t h ing a b o u t t h is o r that , and t h e y g o t b u s y and d id it. S.R: N o w R id g e w ay is o n e of the l i t t l e people? W.A: Y e a h , we d o n ' t c o u n t at a l l u p h e r e n o w . W e l l , w e d o , b u t what I m e a n , o u r o n e m a n h a s a s a y , a n d t h e one d o w n t h e r e , a n d I d o n't m ea n . . . but what I ' m s a y ing . . . ! d o n ' t m ea n that t h e y a r en' t g iv in g u s a fair shake, but we got four or five from down there, I believe at l e a s t fou r , p l u s t h e M a y o r for f i v e , v o t ing a g a in s t o u r t w o f r o m u p here. S.R: W h a t w a s y o u o p inion on t h e n a m e t h e y ch os e ? W .A: T h e R e g io n a l Go v e r n m e n t ? S.R: N o , F o r t E r ie . W.A: W e l l , t h a t ' s , that I h a v e n ' t a n y fau l t t o find w i th t h a t . a l r igh t . That w a s I t u s e d t o b e F o r t E r ie a n d B r idgebu r g ' t il l th e y ch a n g e d it , a n d w e n t R e g i o n a l I g ue s s . T h a t w a s all F o r t E r ie, a n d w e ' r e s u p p o s e d t o b e F o r t E r ie h e r e no w , bu t y e t , o u r m a il a l l co m e s < F o r t E r ie , R id g e w a y m o s t l y o n it , o r a l o t o f it . t h e co de n u m be r , is t h e p o s t o f f ice . A n d t h e LOS - lNO, It g o e s by t h e co d e s I g u e s s m o r e t h a n a n y t h ing n o w . S.R: A n d not by t h e n a m e s ? S.R: C ou l d y o u t a k e m e d o w n a m e m o r y w a l k d o w n t h e m a in s t r e e t in R idge w a y , s t a t in g w h a t the s t r e e t n a m e is and a p p r o x i m a t e l y w h a t y e a r you ' r e d e s c r i b in g ? A n d t e l l m e t h e s t o r e s t h a t y o u r e m e m be r a n d t h e s t o r e o w n e r s , and a n y t h ing t h a t . .. any p o i n t s o f int e r e s t t o do w it h the s t o r e s , l i k e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e h a n g o u t s f o r k i d s o r any thing l ike t h a t . W.A: W e ll , s t a r t in g at t h e s o u t h e r l y end of t h e tow n , t h e f i r s t b ig , b i g g e r bu ilding at t h a t t i m e years a g o , w a s a print s h o p , and it w a s o p e r a t e d b y Bo b Dishe r's fathe r , a n d I t h ink h is n a m e was M e r r it D is h e r. I t 's no longe r c o n t inu e d n o w , t h e R idgeway Dry C leaners a r e in t h a t s a m e b u il d ing n o w . T h e n on the s a m e s ide of t h e s t r e e t w a s t h e P u b l ic Sch o o l b u i l d ing and t h e f i f t h l e a r n w o r k t h a t t h e y tau g h t in t h e r e . P ro c e e d ing on n o r t h e r ly , t h e re was a b i g b r ic k h o t e l , a t h r e e s t o r e y bu ild i n g , calle d the Que e n ' s Hot e l. and t h e Bre w e r y i s o n that s it e n o w . (8) It's t o r n d o w n �S.R: W.A: The h o t e l w a s j u s t torn down. S.R: Lac k of b u s in e s s o r . . . ? W .A: ( Do y o u k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e h o t e l ? I t h in k , m o r e or l e s s , lack of bus iness. b e t t e r hotel o f t h e t w o. It w a s funny , it w a s a far It was . . . t h e o n e that's there now, t h e f r a m e h o t e l , t h e old M cLeod H o u s e . . . y e t t h e M c Le od H o u s e for s o m e r e a s o n r eally g o t t h e b ig end of t h e b u s ine s s . I don' t k n o w w h y . T h e oth e r one w a s n ' t g e t t ing e n o u g h w o r k a n d t a x e s k e p t g o ing up, and up, a n d up, and f inally t h e y . . . it w a s s o l d and t o r n d o w n . A n d t h e n t h e B r e w e r y w a s bu ilt in t h e r e, t h e B r e w e r ' s W a r e h o u s e . T h e n on t h e o th e r s id e of t h e r a i l r o a d t r a c k , g o in g back w h e n I w a s a very s m al l b o y , th e r e w a s a groc e r y s t o r e in t h e r e , a n d t h a t w a s r u n . . . t h e o w n e r t h a t r u n it , h is n a m e w a s D ic k H a r d is o n. w a s g roce r i e s o n l y , a n d they h a d a b a k e s h o p i n t h e back . It And t h e y h a d a o n e ho r s e w a g o n t h a t u s e d t o go a r ou n d t h e coun t r y a n d p e d d l e g r oc e r ie s i f t h e y w e r e o r d e r e d , a n d brea d . Next to t h a t I g u e s s , w a s a plu m b ing s h o p , t h a t w a s r u n by B e n Za v it z. I t ' s . . . t h e bu i l d ing is s t il l t h e r e ( .. .! c a n ' t th ink of t h e f e l lo w ' s na m e , t h e e l e c t r ic ian t h a t ' s i n t h e r e n o w . Then there w a s a poolhall there, a n d b a r be r s h o p r u n b y F rank C l a r k . It w a s bu r n t out in t h e s e c o n d b i g t o w n f i r e . A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a bank in t h e r e c a l l e d t h e R oy a l . I t h ink it w a s t h e R o y a l B a n k . It w a s a l s o b u r n e d d o w n. A store o n t h e co r n e r . . . I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e n a m e o f t h a t s t r e e t is. t h e co r n e r w h e r e t h e p o s t o f f ice is on t h e c o r n e r o f n o w . It's It . . D o n . K in s m e n h a d a s t o r e t h e r e , and M c M o r rans h a d a g o o d m e n ' s fu r n ish i n g s s t o r e in t h e r e for y e a r s. M c M o r rans w a s t h e r e f i r s t . d o w n in t h e s e c o n d t o w n fire. It b u r n e d Then go ing the o th e r w a y , on t h e c o r n e r w h e r e C a m e r e t t a ' s S t ore i s n o w , n o r t h , t h e s t o r e w a s t h e r e and a lady ran it by t h e n a m e of M r s . H o l m e s A'nth ony. S h e had a dry good s store and also a m ill ine r y s h o p connected w ith it. m a d e ladies h a t s in t h e r e . s t y l e s of t h o s e day s . offic e . of. Sh e V e r y ni c e hats t o o , for way back in t h e T h e n n e x t t o t h a t , there w a s a l i t t l e insu r a n c e A l an C o ll a r d w a s in t h e r e I g u e s s the last that I r e m e m be r A n d h e w a s there w h e n it burned down. N e x t to that t h e r e w a s a b ig d r u g s t o r e a n d it' s there y e t , only he r e b u ilt, s t il l in the s a m e plac e . A t that t i m e t h is drugstore w a s Schwartze ' s , J a c k Sch wa r tze' s D ru g s t o r e . p o s t off ice in t h e r e . The d r u g s t o r e ' s It b u r n e d dow,n . Then t h e r e w a s a It . .. and a post office on one s ide and a s h o e s t o r e (9) �on t h e o t h e r s id e , a c o m b in e d s t o r e . It b u r n e d . ( It w as r u n by M u r r a y Hibba r d . I t h in k , I th ink t h a t w a s t h e las t of t h e s t o r e s a n d h o u s e s t h a t w a s in along th e r e at that t i m e . T h e r e has b e e n a c o u pl e n e w o n e s b u il t in t h e r e t h a t was vacant p r o pe r t y . D o n K in s m e n s a n d B i l l Qu inse y s , t h e y a r e the s t o r e s th e r e n o w , n e w s t o r e s , b u t t h e y w e r e v a c a n t p r o p e r t y at t h a t t i m e. Then on the corner of the next b l o c k , I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t the . .! s h o u l d k n o w aft e r l i v ing h e r e e ig h t y . y e a r s , I s h o u l d k n o w t h e n a m e of t h e s t r e e t s , b u t I d o n' t . I don' t t h i n k a lot of t h e m have any s t r e e t s ig n s up on t h e m n o w y e t t o d ay . B u t t h e r e w a s a s t o r e t h e r e c alle d B o x e n ' s S t o r e , r u n b y H a r r y B o x e n . It w a s , I t h i n k m os t ly m e n ' s fu r n is h i n g s a n d g r oc e r ie s and s h oe s . A s h o e s t o r e i n t h e back c o m b in e d w it h t h a t ... a hou s e o u t o n t h e n o r t h s id e w h e r e h e l i v e d in . in t h e r e . T h e n t h e r e w a s s e v e r al h o u s e s along As I g o t down o n the corner o f t h e m a in s t r e e t a n d the D o m i n i o n R o a d , a n d o n t h e corner t h e r e , it w o u l d be t h e s o u t h - w e s t c o r ne r , t h e r e w a s a, w h e r e New m a n s S t o r e is t h e r e n o w , t h a t u s e d t o be a n u n d e r tak ing e s t a b l i s h m e n t in t h e r e. T h e f e l l o w t h a t r a n t h a t, h is n ame w a s M il t o n B r e w s t e r. it w a s p u t i n t o a s t o r e. ( A n d after h e got out of there, T h a t t a k e s u s d o w n to t h e c o r n e r , a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a b i g b r ick h o u s e o n t h e o p p o s ite c o r n e r, a n d Je s s ie F in c h l ive d in t h a t . It w a s t o r n d o w n a n d t h e b ig n e w b a n k i s t h e r e , t h e R oy a l Bank is o n t h e o t h e r c o r n e r n o w . I th ink t h a t c le a n s up t h e n o r t h . . .I m e a n t h e w e s t s ide o f M a in S t r e e t . T h e n g o ing bac k , I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e w a s anyth ing m u c h ' t il l w e g o t to t h e s t o r e b e s ide t h e r a il road t r a c k . Ward D is h e r o w n e d that a n d ran it at t h a t t i m e . I t h ink h e h a d . . . y e s I k n o w h e h a d , m e n ' s w e a r t h e r e a n d g r oce r ie s . T h e n l a t e r H a r r y Be n n e r w e n t i n t h e r e a n d S e y m o u r R u b e l . s t il l t h e r e . T h e n o n t h e o t h e r s id e is t h e M c Le o d H o t e l . b e e n , as far as I c a n r e c a l l b a c k , t h e M c Le o d Hot el. It' s It' s a l w a y s But m y Unc l e B i l l A th o e . . . h is n a m e w a s B i l l A t h o e t o o . ..h e o w n e d it and ran i t for q u i t e a f e w years ...a lot of y e a r s i n fac t . The M cLeo d is s t il l t h e r e . T h e n next t o t h e McLeod w a s t h e h a r d w a r e s h o p , a n d i t w a s o w n e d a n d r u n by a fam ily b y t h e n a m e of S t one . w h a t t h e ir f i r s t n a m e was say for s u r e on t h a t . .. .! b e l i e v e it w a s A . L., it n o w o f c o u r se . but I w o u l dn' t Bu t t h e last na m e w a s S tone . T o m J o n e ' s Law O f f i c e is n o w . I don' t k n o w T h at's w h e r e T h a t b u i l d ing has a new front on T he n next to that w a s t h e big s t one b u i l d ing t h e r e , t ha t was t h e o l d original I m pe r ial Ban k . (10) The n n e x t t o t h e bank �is War d S h e r k ' s, t h e s o n of th is Hugh S h e r k that I w a s t e l l ing y o u , t h a t t h e n i c e w in d o w s w e r e p u t i n i n h o n o u r o f. ( W a r d S h e r k ' s Har d w a r e S t or e , it' s s t il l t h e r e . . . h a r d w a r e and f u r n i t u r e . N e x t t o t h a t w a s Be e s h y ' s Ch ina S t o r e . A n d t h e n t h e r e was a c o u ple o f old h o u s e s i n t h e r e a n d t h e old i m pl e m ent s a l e s b a r n l ike. T h e y w e r e all t o r n d o w n a n d a n e w b a n k p u t i n the r e . A n d t h e n n e x t t o t h e bank , t h e r e w a s a b u t c h e r s h o p , a n d t h a t ... as f a r back as I c a n r e m e m be r , t h e f i r s t m a n t h a t w a s in t h e r e , h is n a m e w a s K e iffe r , w h o ran a b u t c h e r shop. T h e b u i l d in g i s s t il l t h e r e , r u n by M r s . Coo p e r . i s s u e d c a r l i c e n s e s in t h e r e . n e w bu i l d i n g p u t in t h e r e . La t e r s h e Then next to that there was a little M c M o r r a n s put it in a f t e r t h e b ig f i r e , w h e n M c M o r r a n s s t o r e b u r n t , t h e y w e n t o v e r t h e r e a n d b u ilt a s m alle r place in the r e . A n d t h a t ' s w h e r e Nat a l i e M o r g a n r u n s it in the r e n o w . . . a g ift s t o r e. S h o p in t h e r e now . T h e n n e x t t o t h e g if t s t o r e i s D a v id s o n ' s F r u it T h e n on t h e o p p o s i t e s id e o f D a v i d s o n' s , o n t h e o p p o s i t e s i d e o f t h e c o rne r , i s . . . Je r r y D a v i d s o n u p h e r e , h a d an ele c t r ic s t o r e i n t h e r e , s o l d e l e c t r ic a l a p p l iances f o r qu i t e a f e w y e a r s . I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t ' s in t h e r e n o w . t h e r e . . . b o o k s a n d g if t s I g u e s s . ( for years . S o me t h i n g n e w ' s in I d o n ' t k n o w , I h a v e n ' t b e e n in it T h e n i t ' s a l l h ou s e s in there a f t e r t h a t , I g u e s s , d o w n a s f a r as t h e U n i t e d C h u r c h. That' s . . . a n d t h e n g o ing o n d o w n p a s t t h e U n it e d C h u r c h a w a y s is t h e n e w F ir e H a l l t h a t h a d b e e n b u i l t i n t h e r e o f c ou r s e . It ' s b e e n t h e r e qu ite a few y e a r s t o o , nqw . It m u s t .. . S.R: A p p r ox i m a t e ly ? W.A: Oh I w o u l d say a p p r o x i m ately t w e n ty - f iv e y e a r s m a y b e . S.R: W h e r e was t h e old F ir e H o u s e l o c a t e d ? W.A: W e l l t h e old one w a s b u i l t in' b e h i n d t h e .. . it was b u ilt in beh ind the Dav ids on's F r u it S h o p , o n t h e , I g u e s s that w o u l d b e D is h e r S t re e t . S.R: I t ' s o n t h e ...o n e beh ind t h e fruit s h o p a n y h o w . Do y o u r e m e m be r w h o s t a r t e d , w h o b u i l t t h e F ir e D e p a r t m e n t , w h o t h e c h iefs w e r e , t h e a p p r o x i m a t e y e a r w h e n it was s t a r t e d and w h a t t h e e q u i p m e n t u s e d t o b e ? W.A: W e l l , t h e y h a d o l d ha nd-fight ing e qu ip me n t w it h t h e s e l f pu m ps . T w o or t h r e e m e n on b ig p u m ps o n t h e or iginal o n e , b u t t h e n t h e y ( g o t s o m e o l d M o d e l T F or d s that w e r e , c o m e in a l o n g l a t e r a n d k e p t b u il d ing u p . . . and h a d s o m e big n e w e r one s , s t il l n e w e r one s . I don't k now w h a t t h e late r ones t h a t t h e y h a v e n o w , t h e n a m e (11\ �of t h e m ak e of t h e m a r e , b u t t h e o r iginal c h i e f that I can r e ca l l is W a r r e n Bak e r , b e t t e r k n o w n as Co r k e y Bak e r . H e was t h e c h ief, t h e f i r s t o n e I c a n r e call t h e r e . S.R: Do y o u k n o w a p p r o x i m at e l y w h e n ? W.A: N o , I d o n' t . Co r k e y ' s a b o u t my ag e , h e ' s d e a d n o w . I w o u l d t h in k t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h i r ty o r t h i r t y-five , p r o ba l b y t h i r t y-five at that t i m e , t h a t would b e f ifty y e a r s ago that h e w as p r o ba b l y n e a r it whe n h e w as ch ief. S.R: T h e y ' v e h a d s e v e ral s in c e . Y o u m e n t io n e d a b o u t th is s e c o n d f i r e in R id g e w ay a c o u p l e of t i m es . What were the first and second fires ? W.A: W e l l , t h e f i r s t o n e I was t w e l v e y e a r s o l d . I r o d e in on m y b ic y c l e t o it in t h e r e . That's when I told you A n d t h e n ext o n e I w a s c o ntrac ting , m a r r ie d a n d c o n t r a c t i n g , a n d I w a s b u i l d i n g a , s t u c c o ing a h o u s e o u t o n Nu m be r T h r e e H ighw a y , u p n e a r C h e r r y H ill B l v d . , C h e r r y H ill Golf C ou r se, w h e n w e h e a r d t h e f i r e s ir e ns a l l b l o w ing. could see all the s moke. W e d i d n ' t k n o w w h a t i t w as. We A n d w e w ere s t u c c o ing th is h ou s e a n d s t u c c o ing is a j o b t h a t y o u can' t qu it . Y o u ' v e got t o ... w h e n y o u ' r e s t a r t ing one s ide y o u ' v e g o t to fin ish that s id e o r y o u show a l a p when y o u j o in onto it . ( So w e c o u l d n ' t s t o p and we d i d n ' t , w e r e n ' t able to ' t il l we f i n i s h e d . . . a n d w as g o in g h o m e f r o m w o r k a n d go t i n t o t o w n , and h e r e the w h o le t o w n , t h e w e s t s ide of t h e r oa d w a s b u r n e d out, and a l o t o f t h e b u i l d in g s o n t h e ea s t s ide o f t h e r o a d w e r e d a m a g e d . . . l ike S h e r k ' s H a r dw a r e S t o r e t h e r e , the w in d o w s w e r e a l l e it h e r b u r n t o u t o r b l o w n o u t w ith w a t e r h o s e f ig h t i n g t h e f i r e y o u k n o w , and w a s d a m a g e d m o r e or less . B u t anyh o w it was s a v e d , it d i d n ' t b u r n d o w n. w it h Be e s h y ' s Ch ina S t o r e . The same I t w a s d a m a g e d w it h w a t e r . t h e hotel w a s d a m ag e d some. I t h ink A l o t o f t h e belong ings from d iffe r e n t places w e r e t a k e n and c a r r i e d f r o m t h e s t o r e s o v e r t o t h e s t o r e o n t h e . . . n e x t to t h e r a ilroad t ra c k , w h ic h is t h e o n e t h a t was r u n by Har r y Ben n e r I g u e s s a t t h a t t i m e. But e v e r y t h ing w a s c a r r ie d f r o m o n e s t o r e u p t h e r e and p u t i n t h e r e a n d w h a t a m ix u p. When it c a m e t i m e t o d iv iding it u p , t h e y d idn' t k n o w w h a t belonged t o t h is o n e , o r w h a t b e l o n g e d t o t h e o t h e r s , o r anyth ing . a m ix u p . But I g u e s s they g o t it s t r a ightened aw ay. It was quite If any t h ing w a s lost it w a s likely p a id for by t h e insu r a n c e c o m pa n ies. .. . ? S.R: W o u l d you know h o w it g o t sta r t e d or w a s t h e re any W.A: I d on't kno w h o w it g o t s t a r t e d b u t I k n o w w h e r e it s t a r ted. _ (12) T here �w a s a l it t l e s t o r e on the back of M c M o r rans. A fellow by the n a m e of W h i t e y R o be rt s , a r e t u r n m a n , r u n a b i c y c le s t a n d o r s ho p back in there. He sold bicycles a n d repa i r e d the m . M y y o u n g e s t son Bob w o r k e d in the re a n d hel p e d h i m . .. more o r l e s s f i x ing wheels a n d w hat e v e r he could, a n d r e pa ir ing the m . It s t a r t e d in the back o f that sho p. W hat cau s e d it I don' t know . M y s o n w a s ho m e t o d in n e r w h e n it s t a r t e d , a n d h e was on a b i c y c l e , and he r a n d o w n o u r r o a d , d o w n o n h is b icycle . Rudder's S tore was on the other co r n e r t h e n , a t t h e t i m e o f t h e seco n d f i r e , t h a t ' s w h e r e M r s . H o l m e s A n th o n y w a s i n t h e f i r s t o n e . H e. p e d d l e d d o w n t h e r e q u ick a n d j u m pe d o f f h is w h e e l a n d s t o o d it u p a g a i n s t , l i k e a l it t le g a r a g e , that C a m e ret tas ow ned. I n h is e xcit e m e n t o v e r h e l p in g W h i t e y g e t s t u f f o u t o f h is bu i l d i n g , h e fo r g o t abo u t h is w h e e l , a n d w h e n h e w e n t o u t t o g e t h is w h e e l , t h e t ir e s a n d e v e r y t h ing w e r e a l l bu r n t o f f o f it. B u t , s o it s t a r t e d i n t h e r e . When we got there o n o u r w ay g o i n g h o m e f r o m w o r k , t h e y w e r e w o r k in g o n t h e , f i g h t ing the fire in the f r o n t o f that bu i l d ing, w h ich w a s McMo r r a n s a t t h a t t i m e , a n d t h e m e n w e r e u p t h e r e o n ladde r s . It h a d t in s id in g o n it a n d t h e y had t h e s e b i g a x e s w ith a s p ike o n t h e o n e s i de a n d an a x e on t h e o th e r , ch o p p ing holes a n d br eak ing h o l e s t h r ou g h the t in s iding. I t was a l l bu r n ing in the, be t w e e n t h e f lo o r a n d t h e ce i l ing, in be t w e e n t h e j o is t , and they cou l d n ' t g e t a t it t o p u t it out, .. ant:i t h e y w e r e cu t t in g h o l e s in be t w e e n e v e r y j o is t a n d s q u i r t in g w a t e r a l l t h e w a y back t h r ou g h t h e r e . I t w a s a l o s ing caus e . T h e y cou l d n ' t k e e p u p w it h it , a n d it f i n a l l y g o t t h e bes t o f t h e m a n d b u r n t t h a t store down, and t h e barbershop, and the hardware store. out but H i l b o r n ' s . E ve r y thing's The r e w as a d r iv e w ay the r e go ing b a c k in, and they were able t o c u t it off the r e a t that d r i v e w a y . H il b o r n ' s D r u g s t o r e is at . . . a d r y - c l e a n ing e s t a b l is h m e n t i n that p a r t' o f t h e bu il d ing n o w , a n d a real estate o f f ice in t h e other s ide o f i t , in the buil d ing. That was the las t . . . that bu i l d ing was the only one left in t he block from the railroad t rack north. S.R: And all t h e rest were g o n e ? W.A: A l l t h e r e s t w e r e cleaned out, yeah . S.R: W h a t d i d t h e R id g e w ay a r e a hav e to offe r in s p o r t s ? W.A: W e l l , we had p r a c t ically , I th ink t h e s a m e at that t i m e as t h e y h a v e now. W e h a d a rugby t e a m her e , and b a s e b a l l , t w o o r t h r e e h o r s e s h o e c o u r t s w h e r e t h e y u s e d to have e l e c t r ic l i g h t s and y o u (13) �c o u l d pitch h o r s e s h o e s at n ig h t . . . of c o u r s e t h e poolh a l l . a b o w l ing alley a t t h a t t i m e . W e had T h e b o w l ing alley w a s in part o f what I s a id was t h e im ple m e n t s a l e s barn. I don' t th ink there w a s a n y t h ing e ls e . S.R: W h a t k ind of s pe c ial e v e n t s ? W.A: W e h a d a dancehall up a b o v e o n e of t h e s t o r e s t h a t bu r n t d o w n. O n e of t h e b ig s t o r e s h a d a full s iz e dance hall up t h e r e . The O d d f e l l o w s , wh ich t h e y c a l l e d t h e T h r e e L i n k C lu b , t h e Th r e e L i n k s w ith t h e O d d fe l l o w s emble m . . . t h e y called t h e m . T h e y u s e d t o advert ise o r send o u t i n v i t a t ions t o t h e T h r e e Link C lu b Dances and t h e y w e r e a l l s p o n s o r e d by t h e O d d f e l l o w s . S.R: B u t t h e .. . W h a t a b o u t t h is a n n u a l t h ing b e t w e e n S t e v e n s v ille a n d R id g e w a y , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e d e s c r ib e wh at it w a s ? W.A: W e l l, t h e y c a l l e d t h a t t h e 24t h o f M a y , t h e y .. . w h a t do t h e y cal l.. .w h a t ' s t h e 24th of M a y .. . i t ' s Vic t o r ia day is i t ? Qu e e n V ic t o r ia ' s b i r t h d ay , I t h i n k . affair for years . I t h ink i t ' s Vic t o r ia D a y , T h e y h a d . . . it w a s an a n n u a l I t s t arted o u t e a r l y in t h e m o r n ing o n a farm d o w n o n N igh R o a d , c a l l e d t h e E n g e l h a r t F a r m , a n d t h e r e w a s a r a c e t r a c k t h e r e , in t h e r e . . .a h o r s e r a c e t rack . I t s ta r t e d o u t in t h e mo r n ing b y h a v in g h o r s e r a c ing t h e r e , a n d t h e r a c e s w e r e a l l s u l k y races . T r o t t in g h o r s e s y o u k n o w , n o t r u n n ing h o r s e s , t r o t t in g h o r s e s . Oh , a n d t h e r e was a l o t o f p e o p l e a r o u n d h e r e t h a t h a d a l i t t l e m on e y and for , j u s t f o r a h o b by, had a t r o t t ing h o r s e o r a pace r , a n d th e y u s e d t o e n t e r th em. T h a t was t h e f i r s t th ing i n t h e mo r n in g . Then in t h e a f t e r n o o n t h e y w e n t t o S t e ve n s v ille for all t h e o t h e r g a m e s . T h e run n ing gam e s , t h e r u g b y , a n d baseball...all t h a t was h e l d in S t e vens v ille. O f course the . . . l ike I s a id befo r e , all t h e s e t h in g s w e r e allo t t e d o n p o in t s . T h e r e w e r e s o many p o i n t s g i v e n f o r e a c h s p o r t , a n d t h e n w h oe v e r r e c e i v e d t h e m o s t p o int s at t h e e n d , g o t t h is b ig u r n . . . t h e big s t e r l ing coffee pot . S.R: Cou l d y o u t e l l m e t h e s t o r y b e h i n d t h e coffee pot ? W.A: W e l l , w h e n t h e y f i r s t s t a r t e d t h e c o m p e t i t io n off b e t w e e n t h e t w o v illage s , t h is M r . Be e s h y t h a t h a d Bee s hy's Ch ina Store i n t h e c e n t r e of t h e b l o c k , on t h e e a s t s id e of M a in St r e e t , h e dona t e d t h is coffee pot . And I suppose h e got it a t cost because h e s o l d that s t u ff in h is s t o r e . It would h a v e c o s t a l o t o f m o n e y even a t that t i m e b e c a u s e it w a s s t e rling s il ve r , a n d t h e fra m e w o r k that it r o c k e d i n t o pour it, b e ing ir w a s b ig and held a l o t , it was h eavy , and t h e w e igh t (14) �w a s all c a r ried in th is r oc k e r . He d o n a t e d that , a n d t h e n t h e s t o r e k e e p e r s a n d th ings u s e d t o give , d o n a t e p r izes for runn ing , a n d j u m ping a n d th ings. I d on' t k n o w who t h e y w e r e any m o r e . I t h ink p r e t t y n e a r e v e r y o n e o f th e m g a v e s o m e , c o n t r i b u t e d s o m e t h ing to it. But t h e m a in t h ing w a s t h is b ig cup that they kept for . . . the b ig coffee p o t t h a t t h e y h e l d for t h e y e a r . That s e e m e d t o be t h e one t h a t t h e y g o t in t h e fights o ve r , a n d all th is, t r y in g t o be the w in n e r. S.R: Is it s t ill a r o u n d ? W.A: T h a t b ig cof f e e pot ? Y e s , o u r L i o n s C l u b h a s it. I t ' s be e n all r e f u rbis h e d . y o u k n o w , l i k e I w a s . . . t h a t co m m e n t t h a t I cu t o u t o f t h e p a p e r t h a t T e d H ib b e l h a d p u t in . S.R: A n d what w a s that ? W.A: W e ll, it w a s t h is big s t e r ling s il v e r co f f e e pot a n d it w a s d o n a t e d b y Mr . B e e sh y . It w a s h e l d for y e a r s b y t h is R id g e w a y m a n b y t h e na m e o f S t okes . H e w a s the c a pt a in o f t h e R id g e w a y t e a m . He w as h o l d i n g t h e c u p t h e las t y e a r w h e n i t k i n d o f f e l l a p a r t a n d w a s n ' t c o n t i n u e d any l o ng e r . a n d t o o k t h e p o t w ith h i m . H e m o v e d away to B r a m p t o n , O n t a r io W h e n h e w a s p r e t ty n e a r on h is d e a th bee} a n d k n e w h e w a s n ' t g o ing to l i v e v e r y l o n g , h e b r o u g h t it bac k d o w n , a n d M r . B e n Za v i t z , t h e po s t m a s t e r , a d v i s e d h i m t o take it t o t h e L i o n s C l u b , w h ich h e d i d . it every s ince. T h e l i o n s h a v e b e e n h o l d ing T e d H ibbe l , h e s a w it , a n d w h a t a h o r r ible m e s s i t w a s , a l l b lack , a n d y o u w o u l d n't k n o w w h e t h e r it w a s a n o l d l e a d c o f f e e p o t t o l o o k at it . A f t e r h e g o t it a l l f i xe d , it h a d a f e w de n t s a n d th ings i n it t h a t w a s all t a k e n o u t , and all f in is h e d , it w a s a beaut iful t h i n g . O f f ice. We s t ill have it . I t ' s in t h e c a b i n e t in o u r l ion's W e l l k no w , we k e e p it t h e r e all the t im e , u n d e r lock a n d k e y of cou r s e , s o . . . S.R: It ' s valuable n o w . W.A: S o as n o b o d y can b r ea k in .. . that w o u l d be one of t h e firs t things , if t h e y b r o k e in , t he y w o u ld make off with I w ould thin k . S.R: Do y o u r e m e m be r t h e B e rtie F air at t h e O ld F o r t E rie Race Track? W.A: Yes , I r e m e m be r t h a t . We used to take a gib bets do w n t h e r e . I r e m e m be r t aking a big , big p u m pkin d o w n there one t i m e , and g o t firs t prize f o r it , a n d w o n sixty cents . S.R: Was t h a t a l o t then? W.A: Wel l , it w a s a s m all c o u ntr y fair and th e y didn ' t h ave ..• a l l t h e m oney they had was what was c o n t ributed by t h e B e r t ie C ou ncil h e r e . (15) �That was o u r o w n lit t l e local council, and I think m ay b e F o r t E rie donated a lit te t o w a r d s it at t h a t t i m e t o o , and m a y b e S t e vens ville . . . no, I don't think S t e vens ville , they w e r e in with o u r council. C r y s t a l B e ach t hey h a v e t h e ir own. d id n ' t have a l o t of m o ney. T h e y p r o bably donated s o m e . They T h e y couldn' t g ive t w e n t y-five t h i r t y d o l l a r s , o r s o m e t h ing f o r a h u g e pu m pkin , th e y ... six t y c e n t s , w e l l six t y c e n t s w as a l o t o f m o n e y at t h a t t i m e . Y o u c o u l d buy a b r a n d n e w pair o f s h o e s f o r a d o l l a r and a h alf. S.R: D o y o u r e m e m be r the y e a r s a p p r o x i m ately it to o k place ? W.A: T h e B ert ie F a ir ? S.R: Yeah . W.A: W e l l I don ' t k n o w ju s t e x a c t l y w h e n it s t arted, b u t w h e n I w o n the pu m p k in prize, I w a s in t h e . .. I w o u l d be about fourt e e n . That would b e fourteen, and I ' m b orn in 1902, t h a t w o u l d b e w h a t ? . . . a b o u t 1916. A b o u t 1916, I g u e s s . S.R: H o w many y e a r s a f t e r t h a t d id it c o n t inue? W.A: W e l l , it ac tually was put out of b u s i n e s s by the W e l l a n d C ou n t y F a ir. T h e c o u n t y start e d t h i s f a ir in W e l l a n d a t t h a t t i m e , t h e n a n d of c o u r s e it w a s m u c h l a r ger, a n d the priz e s we re m u c h gre a t e r ... a n d w h o w a n t s t o go t o a l i t t le f a ir l ik e F ort Erie w h e n the o t h e r o n e . . . t w e lve, fourteen m il e s a w ay . . . a l l the e x h ib i t s s t art e d g o i n g over there . It was big. T h e y h a d b ig b u i l d in g s th ere , a n d g o o d h o r s e rac e s , a n d c a t t le, s h e ep, ch i c k e n s . . . e v e r y t h ing e x h i b i t e d o v e r t h e r e wh ich w as more or less lack ing down h ere . O u t s ide o f ve g e t a b le s , and a p p le s , and f r u it s , a n d the h o r s e races . .. the h o r s e races w a s t h e d r a w ing e v e n t f o r do w n at t h e B e r t ie F a i r . e x c e llent r a c e s t h e re. They used to have some H o r s e s c a m e f r o m a l l t h e way u p th rough as far as C h a t h a m down h e r e , west, a n d run and e n t e r e d in t h e races d o w n h e r e . T h e y u s e d t o h a v e w o n d e r fu l-t r o t ting h o r s e r a c e s here. S.R: Did y o u e v e r visit E rie B e ach? W.A: Y e s , numerous time s . E rie Beach s t a r t e d ahead of C rystal B e ach, and w a s a very nice beac h . There used t o be a little rail r o a d t ra c k ran f r o m F o r t E rie , and t h e y u s e d t o c o m e o v e r on t h e fe r r y , and g e t on this litt l e rail r o a d , and r u n u p the ... ride up the E rie Beac h . E rie Beach h a d a regular z o o in t h e r e , anim al zoo . N o t animals . . . of c o u r s e not elephants , o r big ones like that , but s h e e p and g o a t s , and r a b bits, a n d all s m al l e r animals , all kinds of s m aller animals, (16) �a n d b ir d s , a n d peac o c k s , and e v e r y t h ing t h e r e . a t t r ac t io n . It u s e d t o be a b ig I u s e d to ride a b icycle f r o m o u r fa r m d o w n t h e r e s e v e n m il e s , t w o o r t h r e e t i m e s a y e a r , j u s t to go d o w n t h e r e a n d t a k e in t h e r id e s , a n d s e e t h e a n i m a l s , a n d rolle r s k a t e , . . . d a n c e a l it t l e b i t l a t e r , w h e n I g o t old e nough t o dance. hall t h e r e . T h e y h a d a n ic e dance T h e n C r y s t a l B e ach started u p a n d t h e y h a d t h e C anad iana, and t h is A m e r icana that p l i e d b e t w e e n Bu ffalo and C r y s t a l B e ach . It was an h o u r r u n, and th e y h a d g o o d o r c h e s t ras t h a t played o n t h e r e , a n d y o u c o u l d dance a l l t h e w ay over, or a l l t h e w a y b a c k . I t h a d a b a r a n d y o u c o u l d b u y d r in k s on i t . A n d t h e b o a t r id e a c t u ally c o m i n g o v e r h e re, p u t F o r t E r ie . . . E r ie Beach o u t of c omm i s s io n . T h e y c o u l d n ' t compete. Pe ople w e n t f o r t h e l o n g b o a t r ide as . . . S.R: T h a t w a s a b ig p a r t of t h e e n t e r t a i n m e n t r ig h t t h e r e. W.A: T h a t w a s in t h e d a y s b e f o r e t h e au t omo b iles w e r e on t h e ma r k e t . T h e r e w a s t h e o d d one, b u t v e r y fe w . I can r e m e m be r r u n n ing t h e l e n g t h of t w o f ie l d s t o s e e t h e . . . m y f i r s t aut o t h a t I h e a r d c o m ing down R i d g e Road, from R i d g e w ay, going o u t t o s e e it. it b l o w t h e h o r n a n d k n e w w h a t it w as. two fields to get down there and see it. I heard I'd h e a r d a b o u t i t a n d r a n A l l it w a s w a s an o l d b u g g y m o r e o r l e s s, j u s t a b u g g y w it h h a r d ru b b e r t ir e s a b o u t t h a t w ide, and that t h ick, and went b o o m p, bo o m p, bo o m p . S.R: It h a d a m o t o r on it r ig h t ? W.A: It h a d a m o t or, t w o h o r s e p o w e re d . A fe l l o w by t h e n a m e of H e r b e r t H a u n r u n a p l a n i n g m il l a t C r y s t a l B e a c h o w n e d i t . I don't know w h at in t h e w o r l d e v e r b e c o m e of it b u t . . . S.R: Y ou m e n t i o n e d t h e l i t t l e r a il r o a d go ing f r o m F o r t E r ie t o E r ie B e a c h , ',Vou l d y o u r e m e m be r t h e n a m e of t h e r a i l r oa d ? W.A: N o , I don' t . Unl e s s it w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e E r ie B e ach R a il r o a d , I don' t k n o w w h e t h e r that was r ig h t o r n o t . I t pi.ie d b a c k a n d f o r t h f o r y e a r s w h ile E r ie Beach w a s runnin g . Of c o u r s e s o o n as C ry s t a l B e a c h s t a r t e d , t h a t b i g C anadiana, a n d A m e r ic a n a r u nning b a c k a n d fo r t h , and it w as o n l y a . . .f o r t y - five c e n t s one w a y f o r a boat ride. I k n o w later y e a r s w h e n it w a s s till runnin g , I used t o take my t h r e e b o y s a nd go down t h e r e on a S a t u rday a f t e r noon and g e t on t h a t , ride o ve r t o B uffalo and never get off it .. . s t a y righ t on and c o m e b a ck t o C ry s t a l Beach , just for a nice cool boat ride . S.R: Ho w m u c h w a s it then? W .A: O h , w h e n I s t a r t e d goin g , I t hink it w a s up around fifty - five c e n t s (17) �or s o m e th in g , v e r y r e asonable. B e in g s it was c o o l , and a n i c e r ide, and t h e y c o u ld da nce f r e e , b a c k and f o r t h t o the m u s ic . . . w h y e v e ry body s t a r t ed floc k ing u p h e r e and left E r ie B e ach. The r a i l r oad cou ldn't pay for i t s e lf, c o u l d n't m a k e e no u gh t o pay for the o p e rat ion, a n d i t h ad t o c l o s e u p . B a rdols that o w n e d and o p e r ated E r ie Beach . .. Bardols . . . I don't know w h a t h is na m e w a s . . . it w a s B o b B a r d o l' s fa t h e r. h ad t h e .. . t h e y w e r e f o r c e d t o c l o s e u p t oo. They A t one tim e th e r e w a s a g re a t b ig h o t e l on t h e lake f r o n t t h e r e at E r ie Beach , a b e a u t iful b ig place . . . d o rme r w in d o w s on the r o o f. E v e r y s o far t h e r e w a s a d o r m e r w it h a w in d o w , a n d e v e r y o n e of t h e d o rme r s w a s a r o o m in t h e r e . . . a l l l o o k i n g o u t o v e r t h e la k e . S.R: Was that the dance hall ? W.A: N o, t h a t w a s n ' t t h e d a n c e h a l l, t h a t w as t h e E r ie B e a c h H o t e l. T h e d a n c e h a l l w a s j u s t l i k e any o t h e r dance h a l l, j u s t a b i g dance hall, a n d c o n fe c t i o n s t a n d s in along the s ide w h e r e y o u c o u l d go and buy p o p, n o t h ing h a r d o f c o u r s e. You could buy p o p s , o r I g u e s s c ig a r e t t e s , a n d c a n d y a n d c h o c o l a t e b a r s . S.R: Th is E r ie B e a c h H o t e l t h e n , it w a s r ig h t in t h e E r ie B e a c h A mu s e me n t Pa rk? ( W.A: It w a s p a r t of t h e park. It w a s o w n e d I guess by t h e B a r d o ! C o m pany. M r. Bardo! a n d h is s is t e r ... ! d o n ' t know name now. them la t e r . w h a t . . . I c a n't t h ink o f h e r I d i d k n o w i t b e c a u s e I u s e d t o do a l o t o f w o r k for T hey owned it . I t bur n e d d o w n , a n d I don' t k n o w . . . y o u can' t say w h e t h e r t h in g s a r e s e t on f i r e or not, b u t it w a s n ' t pay ing t h a t ' s for s u r e . S.R: It w a s s u s p ic io u s . W.A: It w a s unde r s u s p ic ion at t h a t t i m e, y e s . . . but it c o u ldn ' t be p r o v e d t h a t it was t o r c h ed. It was a r e a l n ic e bu ildin g , a n d b a t h h o u s e s on pa r t of i t unde r i n the g round flo o r w h e r e you could r e n t a bath ing su i t . They h ad a beaut iful big pool t h e r e . The reason f o r t h a t was t h e s t oney-bed lake b o t t o m .. . very u n e v e n , and r ough s t o ne s . w a s an all c e m ented bottom in t h e r e , and a big h igh w a l l , a n d they pu m pe d t h e water from t h e lake o v e r t h e t o p in there. it all w ent t o pieces. It Lat e r y e a r s It wasn't d r aine d in t h e f a l l a n d fil l e d u p with w a t e r , a n d f r oze , a n d e xpande d a l l t h e w alls , a n d broke t h e m all do w n . They' r e p r o bably o u t t h e r e in the w a t e r y e t , s o m e o f t h o s e walls . S.R: I i m agine they a r e . I h a v e n e v e r b e e n o u t in t h e r e . You m entioned rides a n d diffe r e n t at t r ac tions th a t E rie Beach (18) �and Crystal Beach h a d to offe r . . . W .A: ( W e l l t h e rides . . . S.R: P ic k one , E r ie Beach or C ry s t a l Beach, a n d d e s c r ibe s o m e of the rides. W.A: T h e . . .! w o u l d s a y t h e c o m ing a t t r a c t ion in b o th places for kids w ou l d be t h e M e r r y - G o-Rounds , a n d t h e k i d s u s e d to flock on t h e Me r ry - G o- R o u n d s . Of c o u r se t h e b igger k i d s , the young fello w s a n d g i r l s w e n t f o r t h e s e c o a s t e r s , t h e g iant c o a s t e r s and th ings. They h a d dance halls in b o t h places a n d t h e y h a d rolle r r i n k s . S.R: W a s t h e dance hall a n d the roller r in k . .. in C ry s t al B e a c h . . . b o t h i n s ide t h e park i t s e l f ? W.A: B o t h i n s ide t h e park at t h a t t ime . La t e r t h e r o l ler r ink moved o u t s ide the park . The roller r in k is t here y e t t o d a y in opera t i o n o n t h e n orth s i d e o f E r ie R o a d . B u t at t h a t t ime is w a s in t h e park, a n d the d a n c e hall w a s in the park . The old d a n c e h a l l was turned into a re s t aura n t , a n d e a t ing pa v il ion in th ere and th ere was b ig s a n d h ill, a h u ge s a n d h ill there. a W h e n y o u w e n t d o w n on t h e m i d w a y y o u c o u l d n ' t s e e the l a k e f o r t h e s a n dh ill . T h e n t h e y c ame in t h ere w it h b ig pumps, a n d t h e y s t arted pump i n g w ater from the ( l a k e u p o n t o t h e s a n d , a n d were forc ing the sand out. I n other w ord s, t h e y washed a l l t h a t b ig s a n dh ill o u t i n t o Lake Erie, wh ich the w a ve s ca rrie d it a w a y a n d flat tened it all o u t. . . w it h b ig h o s e s a n d pumping w a ter t h rough i t . T h e n they b u il t the b ig d a n c e h a l l o n t h e s it e m a d e b y p u m p i n g the w a t e r o n t o the s a n d . . . pu m p ing t h e s a n d a w a y w it h t h e w a t e r , t h e y b u ilt t h is b ig, h u ge , ope n-a i r d a n c e h a l l t h e r e . S.R: Is it s t ill t h e r e ? W.A: I t ' s still t h e r e , t h a t ' s t h e B a l l R o o m t h a t t h e y ' r e h aving big bands t h e r e . . . S a m m y Kay e , T o m m y Dorsey, a n d I don't k n o w . . . s o m e o f t h e o l d b a n d s a r e s til l playing t h e r e c e r t ain nights a w e e k . .. one o r two nigh t s . I think they' r e t h e r e F riday and . . . ! don' t k n o w . . . I s h o u l d n' t say if I ' m n o t s u r e . . . b u t I s e e it in t h e p a p e r . They're playing t h e r e a couple of nig h t s j u s t f o r a t t ractions . .. the new o w n e r s are b ringing t h e m in. I d on't k n o w w h a t ' s t h e r e t h e rest of t h e w e e k, w h e t h e r it . . . p r o ba b l y j u s t c l o s e d u p t h e r e s t of t h e w e e k . T w o nig h t s a wee k a t the . . . they have t h e s e b i g d a n c e s t h e r e n o w ( and these b ig d r awing bands . S.R: D i d y o u t ra ve l by ferry m u c h , the s mall f e r ries tha t to o k y o u t o B uffalo? _ (19) �W .A: W e l l , I don' t think t h e y e v e r had a fe r r y run ning f r o m B u ffalo that I r e c a l l , o r ever h a v e heard o f , running t o C ry s t al B e ach. I t was j u s t a pas s e n g e r boa t . S.R: No, F o r t E r ie to B u ffa l o . W.A: The f e r r y no. It w e nt f r o m B r i d g e b u r g t o Black R o c k . N o , the fe r r y was in F o r t E rie in the s o u t h - e n d and it went . . . it was t h e r e w h e r e . . . prac tically at the end o f B e r t ie S t reet , t o w a r d s t h e b o t t o m of F e r ry S t re e t on the B u f falo s id e . S.R: Was that Black R o c k t h e n ? W.A: N o , Black R o c k ' s d o w n w h e r e t h e r a i l r o a d b r idge is. S.R: Oh, s o it w a s the D u m m y that w e n t f r o m . . . W.A: T h e D u m m y r u n f r o m F o r t E r ie o v e r t o B l ack R ock . S.R: W e r e t h e r e any s t o r ie s t h a t y o u r e m e m b e r a b o u t the fe r r ie s , o r t h e D u m m y , o r a n y t h ing l ik e t h a t ? W.A : W e l l , I u s e d to go w it h a g i r l in B u f fa l o , a n d a n o t h e r f e l l o w a n d I , he had an old M odel T car and w e went over. I s t a y e d w ith m y g i r l longer t h a n I should h a v e I g u e s s , a n d he d i d n ' t k n o w w h a t happened t o m e a n d h e h a d t o catch t h e l a s t f e r r y back , wh ich w a s m id n igh t . W h e n I g o t d o w n t h e r e h e w a s n ' t w a it ing f o r m e , h e w a s g o n e . ( So I e n d e d u p g e t t ing t h e s t r eet car to B lack R ock a n d ca m e t o F o r t E r ie on t h e D u m m y a n d h itch h ik e d f r o m F o r t E r ie t o R id g e w ay . . . w a l k e d the b iggest p a r t of t h e w a y . I d i d g e t a l i t t le r id e . S.R: You m a d e it h o m e by m o r n ing r igh t ? W .A: I got h o m e by d a y l i g h t t h a t ' s f o r s u r e . And a n o t h e r t i m e I g o t o n . a f r e ig h t t r a in t h a t I t h o u g h t , I k n e w w e n t t h r ou g h S t e ve n s v i l l e , w h ich w ou l d h a v e o n l y b e e n t w o m il e s f r o m o u r far m . I thought I c o u l d g e t o f f in S t e v e n s v ille t h e r e , and only h a v e t w o m il e s t o walk . W h e r e t h e walk f r o m F o r t E rie , s t raig h t u p B e r t ie R o a d , was . . . o u r fa r m w a s on t h e c o r n e r o f B e r tie and Ridge R o a d . S.R: W h e r e ' s B e r t ie R o a d , is it s till around ? W.A: D o y o u k n o w B e r t ie S t re e t i n F o r t E r ie ? W e l l that ' s B e r t ie R o a d . If you f o l l o w s t r aigh t w e s t u p it , i t t a k e s you rig h t t o w h e r e I w a s b o r n , on t h e c o r n e r of R i d g e R oa d and B e r t ie R oad. W e l l anyh o w , I g o t o n t h a t t r a i n going t o S t e ve n sville , and I though t I could g e t off i n S t e ve n s ville and only h a v e t w o miles t o w a l k . T h a t thing w a s e m pt y I g u e s s , it did n ' t have t o o much o f a l o a d , and it w a s r e a l l y travelling rig h t th rough . I g o t s c a r e d a n d w o u ldn' t j u m p off, and I w e n t c l e a r t o W elland. I had t o c o m e back t h e n e x t day (20) �h it c h h ik ing back and w a l k ing . . . ! d o n ' t k n o w w h a t all. I d id n ' t g e t . ( h o m e ' t il l t h e m i d dle o f the afternoon . .! k n o w t h e ne x t d a y . That w a s t h e las t time I ever a tte m p t e d that . S.R: S pe a k ing of t ravel, h o w o l d w e r e y o u w h e n y o u g o t y o u r f i r s t car ? W.A: I w a s s ix t e e n w h e n I got m y f i r s t car and it w a s a M od e l T F o r d C oupe. S.R: Do y o u r e m e m be r wh a t y e a r it was, h o w m u c h y o u h a d to pay for it . . . ? W .A: It was a 1 9 1 4 , it was t w o y e a r s old w h e n I got it. It was t w o y e a r s o l d w h e n I g o t it a n d I p a i d f o u r h u n d r e d d o l l a r s . . . f o u r h u n d r e d a n d t w e n t y d o l l a r s fo r it . S.R: D o y o u r e m e m be r t h e gas m il e age ? W.A: Y e s , we g o t a b o u t t w e n t y - th r e e o r f o u r m il e s to t h e g a l l o n. It w a s a fou r c y l i n d e r o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w . S.R: W a s t h a t c o n s i d e r e d g o o d g a s m ileage t h e n ? W.A: It w a s g o o d m ileage at th a t t i m e , y e s . S.R: E v e n c o n s id e r ing t h e s pe e d l i m it s w e r e l o w ? W.A: W e l l , the s p e e d l i m it s w e r e l o w a n d t h e t i r e s w e r e th i r t y by t h r ee a n d a h a l f , a i r t i r e s , a n d th e y w e r e f ifty - f ive p o u n d p r e s s u r e in ( the m . The t h r e e and a h a l f inch t i r e , w h ic h w o u l d be abo u t l ike t h a t , a n d y o u c o u l d g e t f ifty - f ive pounds o f a ir in th e m . p r e t t y near l ik e r i d ing o n a lu m be r w ag o n. It was You j u s t ban g , b a n g , b a n g , a n d t h e r o a d s w e r e a l l f u l l o f l it t l e p o t h o l e s at th a t t i m e . . . s t o n e r o a d s a n d t h e y ' d g e t a l l c u p s i n t h e m u n t il t h e y w e r e s c r a p e d a g a in , a n d t h e y put t h e s t o n e back in th e m S.R: D o you r e m e m be r t h e s p e e d l i m i t s ? . P ic k a m aj o r roa d , and w h e r e t h e y d iffe r e n t in t o w n ? . . . we d id n ' t have . . . there w a s n o c o n s t a b le s , n o c o p s at that t i m e at a l l . W.A: They h a d a t o w n c o n s t a b l e in R id g e w ay T h e r e w a s n ' t much a n d he w a s j u s t a s w o r n in g u y , s w o r n in g iv e n t h e auth o r it y t o m ake an a r r e s t . . . b y the t o w n counc il . H is na m e was . . . the f i r s t one I ever knew was t h e re , w a s S a m A n ge r , t h e T o w n C on s t a b l e . S.R: D id he have to make very m an y a r r e s t s? W .A: W e l l , y e s the k ids r a i s ing ca i fl around, t h e odd drunk g e t t ing in a fight o r s o m e t h in g ( . • . n o t too m any . I don' t know . . . a t that t i m e w a g e s w e r e a w f u l l o w and t h e r e w e r e no really b ig fact o r ies around . . . t h e n i c k le plant i n P o r t C o lborne w a s n ' t t h e r e , H o r t o n S teel wouldn ' t be t h e r e , _or a n y of t he m . W a g e s w e r e v e r y l o w y e t e v e r y body w a s (21) �w orking. What you w anted to buy w as very cheap . You could go out and buy a ne cktie for a quart er, and now you're paying eigh t , ( nine , and t e n dollars for one . Like I said earlier, you could buy a good pair of shoes when I w as a boy for a dollar and a half, a dollar and sixty cent s . .• and they w ere good shoes . . . good , best of leather at that time . S.R: Talking of pri c e s , do you re member the pri ce of gas or the pri ce of milk and eggs and but ter, any of the staples? W.A: Well eggs . . . m y m other used t o go to . . . had custo m ers, and her eggs were alw ays genuine fresh, as fresh as they could possibly be. People used to call up and w an t so m any do zen eggs delivered at the end of the week. She used to al w ays go on Saturday. When I w a s out of s chool I'd have to dri ve the horse and buggy for her to deliver around. Then end up w i th . . . whatever w as left over . . . cust omers didn't t ake , she'ci t ake to Beeshy's S t ore . . . that w as the dry - goods st ore. They used t o take them in as barter at that time. You could trade six or eigh t do zen eggs in at eigh teen or t w enty cen t s a do zen , trade them in for groceries , any kind o f gro ceries you needed. About t wenty, eigh teen t o t w enty cents a do zen for eggs, and about thirty-one ( or t w o cen t s a pound for butter. S.R: And gas? W.A: Gasoline, oh I don't kno w . I don't remember what gasoline w a s . It w as under thirty cen t s , but I think it w as about t w enty-eight or t wenty-nine cents a gallon, the first gas that I used to get . Then it got up t o w ards forty-some cent s , and we thought that w as terrible. S.R: N o w look at today. S.R: When you gre w up you used to live on a farm . D o you re call who the previous o wner w as , or who built i t , or what year it might have been built , or anything like that ? W.A: Well, I t old you that previously. A fellow by the name o f Anger, fro m Chippa w a , came up there and bought the farm . They got the farm and in later years my granddad bought it from a fellow by the name o f Anger. I don't kno w what year that w as. I kno w I was born there and I was born in 1 9 02 , so that's eigh 1fthree ye ars ago. S.R: ( What kind of farming was done ? W.A: Well, we had general farming in there . We had, usually had about ten or t welve head of cattle , m ilk cattle . Everything w as much harder . . . labour in those days and what it is now adays. We used (?. ?. \ �to sepa rat e the m ilk and make cream in the cre am separater that ( you had to turn by hand , like this, and spin it until it got so fast it sep a rated the cream from the milk. The crea m w ould come out one spout and the milk w ould come out another. You kept the cream a w e ek and then you w o uld have . . . I guess it soured and then you could churn it and m ake butter out o f it . The churns used to be like a s m all barrel, about that big around, and a V shapped fra rn e w ork . . . one - on e a ch side that this barrel used t o turn in, and it had a handle that run up and down, and it run on gears that turned this churn 'round and 'round. Someti mes it w as an a w ful j ob, depending on the temperature I guess m ore that anything else. I f it w as too cold you couldn't get but ter qui ck. Y ou'd turn and turn, churn and churn, t o get but ter, and if it w as too w arm i t w ould be the same w ay. My m o ther used t o put cold w ater in the churn sometimes and . . . whi ch it didn't do any dam age because it w ouldn' t turn into but ter. Nothing but the cream w ould turn into butter. When she put cold w ater in one t i m e and churned it about t w o or three minutes and you had but ter, and the next time you put cold w ater in you could keep right ( on for half an hour and you w ouldn' t get butter . . . put a lit t le w arm w ater in it and you'd get butter qui ck. But ter w as about thirty-one or t w o cen t s a pound at that time. They had a lit tle but ter press that you could squeez e it all down int o . It had a s creen on the b o t t o m a n d m others w as a leaf, a leaf and I d o n ' t kno w what . . . sorne thing els e . When you get it all pressed down in there tight, you pushed on a . . . like a stern plug that stuck up through the t op , and that w ould push the print of but ter out of this mold and it would have this m aple leaf and everything on it. You'd buy the papers , and wrap it all up in. You had to do all that , and churn it all , and seperat e it to get the cream and everything, and sell it for about thirty-one cents a pound. S.R: A lot of w ork. S.R: What affe c t s did the l)epression have on the farm and the family? W.A: The farrn . . . the pepression ? Well, I guess it didn't have much of an ... rnore affect on the farmers than it did anyone else. The people w eren't w orking and there fo}!!,t hey w ere scarce o f money and couldn't buy like they had been buying. They bought what the necessities w ere more than anything else. If you saw some nice • • • like the other day I bought a b asket of huckleberries and I paid a dollar and eighty- �nine cents for a pint . Well you w eren ' t spending m oney like that in those days in the t>epression t i m e . S.R: Did you go and pick your o w n ? W.A: Well, you could go up above Port C olborne and pick huckleberries, yes , in the m arsh up there . . • wild ones, but they w ere s maller than the domestic berry, but tasted just the same and everything. We used to go up there you kno w , in the � epression t i m e . I used to go up there , another fe llo w and I, drive a car T. too . .• . . . that w as an old M odel all the w ay t o Port C olborne and pick huckleberries. We had t w o boxes. One was fourteen and one w as eighteen quarts and they hooked t ogether w i th a rope around them . We used to shove a piece o f a board about four feet long , which w as planed the corners o f f nice and sm ooth, put it through the rope and s w ung it up o ver your shoulder and hang on the board to carry it so it w ould hold it up out o f the moss. Y ou'd sink down in the moss that deep. Y ou couldn 't carry them in a basket without holding your arm s like this (straight out in front ) and you can't do that . . . c arry a baske t , an eleven quart basket of berries very far b e c ause they'd get going down and finally they'd hit the moss and tip the basket and out goes your berries. Then you' ve really got a job picking the m out o f that m oss. But w e used t o sell them . I can re me mber when we w ere .. getting thirty cents a quart for those berries. And we w ere getting . . . picking . . . the bushels . . . w e w ere get ting thirty cents a quart , which was better than nine dollars isn't it? Thirty times thirty is nine dollars? Ten t i m e thirty is three and three times three is nihe . . . sure . We w ere getting nine dollars a day and that w as real m oney at that t i m e . You'd w ork all day long for . • • w e l l , t h e first job that I h a d after I left the farm w as in a quarry where they were crushing stone , down . here on the corner o f the Garrison, Num ber Three and Ridge R o ad in there . They got all the stone out of there t o do the Number Three High w ay to st one •.. • . • the first t i m e it w as ever stoned. That's going fro m clay not t arred yet . We w orked in there for • • • and got a dollar . • • didn ' t g e t a dollar. W e g o t sixty-five cents a n hour shovelling stone from down in the quarry into carts. And the carts w ere pulled on tracks, railway tracks up on the • • • lighter tracks of cours e , up onto a hopper where they w ere dumped and put through a crusher where they w ere crushed. W orking down there in that hole when it was eight-five. or ninety, it would be a hundred and ten down in there (24) we �and there w ouldn't be a dry stitch on ya for perspiration. S.R: And no bre e z e to help ? W.A: N o , you didn ' t get a bit of bre e z e . But you w ere glad of the job. A t that time sixty-five cents an hour was a heck of a lot of m oney. That's over three dollars a day. We used to w ork ten hours . •• ten by sixty-five w ould be six-fifty. W e w orked for a fellow that had the quarry. The one at that time w as R oy Law . In later years he opened a big one down here at Windmill Point where they go s w i m m ing in there . He opened that and operated that for several years a f t erw ards. S.R: D i d you kno w why he st opped? W.A: Why he st opped? Well yes. It w as all one sided down here . All these roads that he was get ting to build and having t o bid on w ere m ore or less westerly and this d o w n here . . . the ri ver here and the lake here , Lake Ont ario the o ther w ay . . . all he h ad w as just a s m all, such a s m all end here . He w ent up above Port Colborne and bought a big quarry up there , ri ght next to this huckleberry m arsh and opened it up up there . Therefore he w as near all the roads all around D unville, and West Cayuga, and all up through there . He w as m ore right on the spo t s . It saved an awful lot on transport ation. ( S.R: Y o u m entioned to me before about the Fenian R aid. Could you ple ase describe what you w ere t old by your parents or grandparents about the Fenian R aid, having t o do w ith your farm? W.A: Well, the Fenian R aids w ere a bun ch o f Iri sh people that came over here on an old scow and landed do w n below F ort Erie fro m Buffalo. I guess they thought Canada w as only a sm all pla c e and only four hundred of them could c o m e over and take C anada very easily . . . which they tried, but the people here put up quite a resistence and then the Queen's Own Army w ere sent d o w n by trai � to Ridge w ay, and m ar ched all the way from Ridge w ay out there . The m ain battle w as fought right above , on our farm and the next one t o it. That w as in 1 8 6 6 . I don't kno w how m any there w ere o f the Queen's O wn, but as soon as they found out that they w ere meeting a lot sti ffer resistence then they anti cipated, they retreated and w ent back and got on their scow and le ft . S.R: { The Fenians ? W.A: The Fenians le ft , yeah , and went back t o the States. I don't kno w w h a t they w ere. Just a bunch like t h e Irish today I guess, fighting over there and they don't kno w what they're fighting over. The , 1 .... ,.. , �of c o u r s e I w as n ' t b o r n t h e n , b u t t h e o l d e r p e o p l e a r o u n d t h e r e and ( talking t o diffe r e n t o n e s . . . . some o f t h e older fa r m e r s over t h e r e , t h e n e x t m o r ning b e f o r e the battle , s o m e o f t h e F enians w e n t a n d de m a n d e d m i l k a n d things f r o m t h e fa r m e r s t o h a v e for t heir b reakfas t . . . m e a t a n d eggs and w h a t e v e r t h e y could g e t . T h e n t h e y g o t back u p t h e r e in w h e r e t h e m ain b a t t l e actually w as , righ t on t h e B e r tie R o a d . A t t h a t t i m e t h e fences w e r e all rail fence s . T h e r e w a s no wire fe n c e s a t t h a t time, t h e y w e r e mostly oak t r e e s . . .oak s plit s very s t r a igh t . T h e y s p l it them by h a n d i n t o r a il s a b out twelve f e e t long a n d four o r f ive i n c h e s in d ia m e t e r . each s ide of t h e road. There w a s o n e of those on The F e n ians . . . f o r I guess, t w o o r three hun d r e d y a r d s . . . t ook t h e fence o f f t h e o n e s ide of t h e r o a d a n d c a r r ie d i t o v e r to the o th e r s ide of t h e r o a d . It w as n ' t a s o l i d f e n c e . T h e s e r a ils w e r e s p r e a d a p a r t . T h e r e w e r e s pa c e s b e t w e e n t h e r a ils a n d t h e y put the f e n c e f r o m one s ide of t h e r o a d o v e r t o t h e o t h e r s ide of t h e r o a d s o that it w a s d iff icul t t o s h o o t between t h e m w it h out the bul l e t s h it t ing the ra i l . T h e y w e r e l o w e r p o w e r e d c a l i p e r guns in t h a t day and i f t h e y h it a rail i t s tuck . . . it dj d ..Jt go on t h r ough . ( N o w , t h e n e w e r r iffle s , l i k e I us e d t o g o d e e r hun t ing w it h , t h a t I o w n e d , w o u l d s h o o t t h r ough t h a t r a il l ike a bun c h o f c h e e s e n o w , b u t t h e y w oul d n ' t at t h a t t i m e . S.R: T h e y w e r e b e h i n d t h e s e r a il f e nc e s . W h ich w a s a l m o s t l ike a s o l i d w a l l by put t ing t h e t w o f e n c e s t o g e th e r, right? W.A: It was close to solid. It w a s , due t o a l i t t l e b it o f c r a c k, a l i t t l e b i t of c r ook in t h e rail. . . th e y coul dn ' t g e t t ig h t toge t h e r b u t t h e y w o u l d p r o ba b l y b e like t h a t . S.R: P e e k y h o l e s to look t h rough . W.A: A b u l l e t c o u l d h it o n the e d g e of one and go t h r o u gh and find a m a r k i n t h e r e a l l righ t . It f o u n d enough t h a t t h e y did n ' t l a s t long . They t u r n e d , t h e y t u r n e d t ail and r u n b a c k for the riv e r a n d left . They did that . I know T h e y m o v e d the fence f r o m one s ide t o t h e o t h e r . m y b r o t h e r-in- l a w ' s fathe r was on a far m . T h e r e w a s one far m Jake far m e d t h a t w a s n ' t in the battle next t o h is . build ings o n it . I t was a vacant far m in t h e r e . There was n o They w e n t across t h is vacant far m o v e r t o h is place and w e n t in t h e barn w h e n he ( w a s milk ing a n d t o ok all the m ilk t h a t h e h a d m il k e d f r o m t h e m il k c o w s , a ri d t o o k t h e pa ils a n d e v e r y t h ing , and c a r r ied i t a w a y t o d r ink o r in a k e f o r c o f fee o r s o m e t h in g , I s u p p o s e . , ., ,,,. \ M y p u b l ic school �teacher, I think I w as probably in about the senior third in that time. What they call senior third book, and there was a j unior third and ( a senior third . This old Mr. A. W. R e avely, he was old enough that he kne w all about it and was telling about . . . he was the one that told us about them going there and taking the milk a w ay from this farm er to drink. They t ook the pails and everything, ye t never paid them a cent . I guess they were glad they didn't shoot . He also t old about finding this one soldier lying with his stom ach over this rock, dead there , and about t w o of them that w ere w ounded. They carried them into our . . . it w asn't ours at that t i m e . . . into the house that w as later o w ned . . . it w as run by Angers at that t i m e . Where t h e Angers w ere , I don't kno w . Whe ther they w ere still there or not I never h e ard . They lost an aw ful lot of blood in there , and I guess it was qui t e a m ess, but probably not near as much as it w ould have been t oday. Today they w o uld have fan cy rugs and everything on the floor. In those t i m e s a couple little scat t er rugs or some thing is about all they h ad . They could w ash the rugs, and s crub the floors , and it w ould be as good as ne w . S.R: All the tra ces w ere gon e . W.A: ( Y e ars later, when I w as quit e a good sized lad, I don't re call the fello w s nam e , but I did kno w it, but I can't re call it now . . . c a m e down here and he w as the Que en's O w n S oldier from Toron t o . He w as just com ing down to insp e c t the Fenian R aid grounds where the battle w as fought. He re m e mbered the old Athoe homestead there . H e re m e mbered that. We w ere showing h i m t h e h o l e s gouged o u t of the bri ckwork on the corner of the house where the Fenians w ould shoo t , and it would hit this brick, and it w ould glance off and take , cut a gouge out o f the bri ckw ork about that deep and about that wide. It j ust cut a groove ri ght out of it. Showing him that and then we told him . . ! happened to think about this bullet hole in the . wind o w j a m . Sho w e d him that and right a w ay he wanted it. My father, beings he w as a Fenian . . . Queen's Own Soldier . . . S.R: He had fought there righ t ? W.A: He had fought there . . . been there yes. He told him that if he w anted to go to the lumber mill in Ridge w ay and get a board the same width ( and as long as that one , a good planed, smooth, board, he could exchange it. Which he did. He didn't t ake the whole board. A ft er he got dow n below the hole about that far, and was about that far above (27 ) �the hole , and it split all the w ay from the hole to the t op because it w a s , the hole w as closer to the top than it was to the bottom . ( I suppose it split the way of the least resistence, which w ould be the short w ay up . He w ent down below it about the sam e distance , and sawed i t o f f . A l l he took w as the short piece a w ay back t o Toronto w i t h him . I suppose he . . . S.R: A souvenir? W.A: A souvenir of the old battle grounds. But later people used to come from all over. They came over there from Buf falo, and all around, and w anted . . . said that they heard about . . . this w a s the bat tle ground and w anted to . . . heard of the bulle t holes, the marks that w ere in the brickw ork, and w anted to see the m and everything. Why, w e h a d , for ye ars, people coming there . N o t now anym ore o f course. Tha t was over a hundred years ago ( the battle ) . S.R: D o you re m e m ber any other st ories that your parents or grandparent s migh t have told you involving the hist ory? W.A: R e garding the battle . . . the Fenian R aid Battle , you mean? S.R: Or just hist ory . Things that happened when they w ere younger or anything like that . S t ories that they migh t have just t old you, late ( at nigh t st ories, and stuff. W.A: Well, I don't kno w . S.R: D o you re m e m ber the ship yard s , whi ch is now the M arina o n the Niagara Boule vard? W.A: Y e s, very w ell. I w orked there . I w orked there in 1 9 1 8 and 19 1 9 for t h e C anadian Alice Chalm ers C ompany while I S.R: . They m ade four b o a t s . . three . w orke d there and one after I left . D o you kno w approxim at ely what years the Canadian Alice Chalmers o w ned it and if anything was done before they had it ? W.A: Well, the w ar started in 1 9 14, and I think it was going m aybe a year or t w o be fore they came in there . Probably about 1 9 1 6 that they start ed. I didn't w ork on the first boat , I w orked on the next t w o , and I didn't w ork on the last one . I w orked on the War Badger and the War Weasel, I guess it w as. Oh, I guess there w as about a hundred and thirty-five or forty m en w orking • • • e asily that m any I guess w orking in there on all the different machine shops and the ( garage. They had busses that they took w orkers back and forth to Fort Erie on. They come up there in the morning and put them in • . • busses in the garage. They w eren't big busses. They probably carry (28 ) their �fifteen t o t w enty m en. They put them in this garage and it was hid in the dayt i m e . They ' d w ork in there ( . • . the drivers w ould w ork in there all day cleaning the m , and polishing the m , and doing whatever they could. A machine shop , a blacksm ith shop, pump house . . . S.R: What was the pump h ouse for? W.A: Well, the pump house pumped w at er for any of the , anything that needed water there . The bathroom . . . they had a bathroom that used w at er at that t i m e . They pumped w ater for that out of the slip int o a, up into a t ank. The t ank w as on a trestle, or a pedestal, or a tripod a c t ually . .• a four legged tripod up in the air about thirty or forty fee t . Th ey'd pump it up into that , and then aft er that it w as gravity. It w ould . . . the w eight of the w ater in the t ank w ould force it through the lines so all the other buildings where any w a s required, w o uld get i t . My brother a n d I w orked there . We drove a h orse and cut t E=r in the winter and a buggy in the sum m er d o w n there . There w as a s m all barn o wned b y t h e ship yards across t h e road o n a different property though , b u t they o w n e d it and w e could put our horse s over in there . It was w arm enough . . ! don't think . w e even had to blanke t the horse in the winter. But com ing out , ( we had t o punch a ti m e clock t o get out , and also going in in the m orning. We had t o come out around the offi ces, up t o where this time clock w as. To do that w e had t o pass this big trestle that held this big w a t er t ank up on t op of it. One nigh t they got an , oh, t errifi c wind . The t ank up there , being large like it w as , got so much w e ight against it , it pushed on the tank t o the east. I guess the pressure , it was so strong, it got it tipping a little bi t , and then the water run in the t ank that w ay and kept put ting that much m ore pressure . Finally, the leg on that side buckled , the tank upset and came ri ght . down. The next m orning when w e w ent in, here w as the tank all sm ashed to pie c e s in the drive w ay. All the wind o w s w ere out of the office and everything because of the water hitting the ground and w ent side w ays. S.R: Like a tidal w ave ? W.A: Yes. It took all the windo w s and everything out of the office there. That w as in 1 9 1 8 or ' 1 9 . Up until 1 9 2 0 , I left in 1 9 2 0 . S.R: And it was still • • • oh yeah. You said there w as one more boat built after you left. W.A: It turned out to be a lake freighter and plied the Great Lakes. It (29 ) �didn't get into any of the army w ork at all, w ar w ork. S.R: Do you recall your w ag e s ? W.A: ( Y e s . My • . . when I started there I don ' t kno w whe ther or not I s t arted I don't recall ..• • • . when or when I was leaving I w as get ting sixty-five cents an hour. At that time I was running a drill and a rea m er, drilling any hole that w asn't punched out in the pun ch shop , you ' d have to put up what they c all an old m an . . . it w as a in b e t w e en them ..• . . • and you put your drill a s cre w in it where you'd s cre w it and put pressure on it and it w ould force your drill through the steel. Spinning by air of course . . . air driven. Sixty-five cents an hour I w as getting. I think that was probably when I w a s leaving. I don't re m e m ber what I s t arted in at. I w as there three years . . ' 1 8 , ' 1 9 ' and p art of ' 2 0 . . close . . to three years. I w as there and the boss came arid asked me if I'd go and ride the ship in when it was launched as a test cre w . Each one o f the hatches had a ladder from the t op all the w ay down to the bottom floor. These were oil burning ships and they had a double floor on the bottom . . . a rolling keel floor like. Th at was all subdivided off into compartm ents of about thre e feet square . But they had ( a space left open, a sm all space left open at the lo w er floor. That w as for the oil t o pass back and forth. But these bulkh e ads in there kept it . • . on a rough w ater, waves couldn 't get i t , slopping in there and roll the ship over. It kept the oil from slopping. We were w orking on that and the . ! think that there must o f been close t o a hundred . . and forty-five , fifty, thirty-fiv e , something like that, men w orking on all the different branches of it . What •.. there w as s o m e thing you asked me about . Oh yes . About this laun ching. He asked me i f I w ould like t o go i n o n a test. I didn't kno w what he m e ant exactly and he w as al w ays good t o me and very good and I didn ' t dare say no. So I says , oh yes. So there was a ladder w e n t up to t op of these hat ches to the t op deck, and soon as i t w as in the w a t er • • • they launched them all in side w ays on great big, about sixt een inch square timbers, all j ust saturated with grease • . • just as much grease • • • an inch o f i t thi ck, piled along o n t h e t op edges t h a t they w ere going t o slide on. When they got ready t o launch, they had a m an on each side of that t i m ber with big, I think, t en pound sledges, and they w ere driving these w o oden w edges bet w een the boat and the skid. A s they g o t enough • • • they got these driven i n tight enough, t h e wedges start ed moving the boat. Then as soon as the boat m oved and got (3 0) �on that grease , they w ould slide side ways right in and kind of rolled over, and tip, and drop into the slip , and they rocked back and forth. ( We weren't supposed t o go down there t o go through on the inspe ction until after it quit rocking . Well, I re m e mber when I w ent down the ladder, it was slipping back and forth on the hatch ye t . We had t o cra w l through from one hole t o the next hat ch w ay where there was a solid partition . The reason for that being that there could possibly have been a riv e t that was skipped . . • that w asn't driven and water w ould be spouting up in there . While i t w ouldn't be suf ficient t o sink the boat , i t w ould t ake an a w ful lot o f pumping t o get i t o u t and ke ep it out . A fello w w ould get a . . . they'd h a v e t o get i n there and thre ad it with a p i p e threader and s cre w a . . . ins t e ad o f put ting a rive t , they c ouldn't put a rive t i n b e c ause the w at er w ould m ake it cold and they c ouldn't riv e t i t . So they'd have to put in a s crew-in plug and then batter that over a lit t le on the inside. S o that's what I had t o d o , was cra w l from this one hat ch o ver to the other. Water had raised. It le aked down through there into these era w 1 holes in there and got i t all rusty in there , and when { w e come out , what a m e ss. Our pants were just black, dirty rust and our shirt and everything. We all put up such a ki ck t o the boss that he went and bought us e a ch a ne w shirt and a ne w p air o f trousers , and gave them t o us fre e . A while ago we were t alking and I w as t alking about the m an I m e t , the superint endent , and I c ouldn't think o f his nam e . His name is Sampson, Bert S ampson. He lived in F ort Erie down at C o zy Dell. S.R: Where 's C o zy D e l l ? W.A: C o z y Dell is about a m ile on down the river f r o !D. Fort Eri e . I gue ss it's all called Fort Erie no w , but at that time it w as called C o zy Dell, part of it down in there . We all got a ne w pair of trousers and a ne w shirt out of it any w ay, for our dirty mess cra w ling through there on our hands and • • • m ore or less on your knee s and your elb o w s. What w e had when w e w ent through there w a s a ham m er and four or five w ooden plugs, d o w n to points up t o about an inch in diam e t er at the t op end. In case w e did find a rivet that w as out w e had t o stick t h e point of it do w n there and drive it d o w n i n tight w ith this ham m er to stop the leak t e mporarily 'till they could get at i t to get in there with a drill • • • not a drill, but a threader, and thread this hole so that it was able , they w ere able t o scre w the plug into it. (� 1 ) �I don't kno w whether they found any or not but there w as none in ( m y section, fortunat ely for me anyh o w . It w as bad enough the w ay i t w as w ithout water coming in yet . S.R: Was that the first thing that was done there , the four ships being built by C anadian Alice Chalmers, or w as there anything done in ye ars before that at the ship yards ? W.A: Well, in 1 9 0 7 .•• I can re me mber it but j ust barely, I w ould be only five ye ars old . . . they built, I think it w as called the A. B. Ossler. Either A . B. or E. B. It w as built there . I don't kn o w . . • it cost so much a f t er the one w as completed they never started another one until the w ar w as on in 19 14. It started I guess, about 19 16. They . . . well they m ight have st arted in ' 14 . It w a s ' 16 before they got operating anyh o w , building the first boat in there . And they built four in there after that . . . three while I w as there and one after. S.R: D o you re call the c o m m unity that w a s kno w n as Shipyards, Ont ario? W.A: Well, t h a t w as . . . t h e y j ust called it the Shipyard s . I t w as j ust called the Shipyards b e c ause that w as where they made ships . It w as the only one bet w e en here and Chippa w a . It had this boarding house ( there, wh ere the m en could board there . I gue ss they'd most likely be single m en, boarded in there and had their m e als and everything there . It w as called the Green Goose . And there was a st ore there where they could go and buy che w ing toba c co for the che w ers or the sm okers , and gro ceries or anything . I gue ss men's w orking apparel m ore than anything else , heavy w ork sirt s and trousers , and boots, in the st ore . I think that was about all. There w as a couple o f farm houses right near there too , but I don't think they had anything t o do w i t h t h e plant operations. S.R: S muggling. Could you tell me what you re call about smuggling or stori e s you w ere t old about smuggling, or anything like that ? W.A: Well, my d ad and one of the other neighbours used t o s muggle oil from Buffalo across and • . • is that the one you w ould like to hear ? They'd go over and they'd g e t s i x o r eigh t barrels o f oil on a sleigh in the wintert i m e and bring it across with a team of horses with sharp shoes, so they wouldn't slip on the ice, and bring it back over ( and • • • I don't kno w • • • they saved a lot. Oil w as a lot che aper over there then it was here. I don't know what they saved. They saved a lot and m ade it w orth while . Anyh o w , in smuggling • • • ! guess • • . ! don't think they had anyone wat ching, partolling for it or not , I never �h e a r d of that .. . anything like t h a t . B u t I k n o w the one t i m e I h e a r d m y dad s a y t h a t , w h e n t h e y c a m e back , t h e r e was a c rack i n t h e ( i c e t h a t a l w a y s . .. b e c a u s e of e x pansion y o u k n o w , a c r a c k t h a t ran from Point A bino t o W in d m ill P o in t . I t ' s always t h e r e e v e r y year. W h e n I u s e d t o g o fis h ing o u t there that c r ack w a s always t h e r e . T h e y u s e d to h a v e t w o planks o u t t h e r e , one on e a c h s i d e . When w e w e n t o u t , i f it w a s o p e n w e p u t one o n t h is s id e ove r t o g e t a c r o s s o n , and t h e n t h r o w i t bac k . S o which e v e r way w e w e r e go ing w e a l w a y s h a d a plank t o g e t a c r o s s o n . U s ually i t n e v e r o p e n e d u p m o r e t h a n a b o u t f if t e e n t o t w e n ty inch e s . But one t i m e due to a b a d w in d o r s o m e t h ing , it o p e n e d u p p r e t t y n e a r fou r fee t , a n d t ra v e l l e d n o r t h . . . s o u t h . . . it t r a v elle d s o u t h . W h e n th e y c o m e b a c k w it h th is l o a d o f o i l , t h e h o r s e s g o t u p t h e r e a n d t h e h o r s e s w h e r e afraid to get across the crack. They had to get across because t h a t ' s t h e o n l y w a y they c o u l d g e t h o m e . S o th e y l e t t h e h o r s e s t a k e a g o o d l o o k a t it a n d t h e y c ir c l e d a r o u n d a n d w e n t b a c k o u t a r o u n d a h u n d r e d y a r d s m a y b e , o r s o , g o t t h e w h ip aft e r t h e h o r s e s a n d h a d t h e m r ig h t u p o n a d e a d r u n s o t h e y c o u l d n't s t o p . the w e ight o f t h e o il push ing t h e m , t h e y ' d h a v e to g o . ( Because When they g o t t o the c ra c k t h e y j u m pe d a n d t h e s l e igh w e n t b o o m p , b o o m p and d id n ' t b r eak t h r o u g h o r a n y t h ing, b u t t h e y got o v e r t h e c r a c k a n d g o t h o m e w it h t h e i r o i l . B u t , I don' t know, I guess that was a g o ing c o n c e r n f o r a l o t o f t h e far m e r s a r o u n d at t h a t t i m e . w a s p r obably a l o t of t h e m s m u gg l i n g . m y dad t e l l a b o u t w a s t h is o n e . There T h a t ' s t h e o n l y o n e I h e a r d. H e w a s I t h ink , o n l y a b o u t f o u r t e e n o r f ifteen y e a r s t h e t i m e that that h a p pe n e d . H e w a s r i d i n g w ith an older neig h bou r and t h e older neig h b o u r w a s an o l d h a n d at it. S.R: D o you recall any of the r u m - ru nning d a y s ? W.A: R u m - r u nning ? Well, yes . T h e r u m - runne r s are :.. it w a s d r y in t h e S t a t e s at that tim e a n d m o s t o f t h e booze that they d id dr ink w a s m a d e , I u n d e r s t o o d , u p in t h e s ta t e o f C o nnecticut . here .. . you c o u l d e x p o r t it . A lot of rum- runners You c o u l d g e t a bunc h , buying it f r o m a l i q u o r o u t l e t h e r e for e x p o r tatio n . They h a d e x p o r tations m a d e to P ue r t o Rico and all o v e r , a n d y e t t h e y c o u l d n ' t g e t t h e r e wi th these s m al l b o a t s . ( But they didn't care. They . .. s e l l ing t h e l i q u o r , w e r e m aking it out for w h e r e v e r t h e y t o l d t he m . They used t o s ta r t out after d a rk t o g o t o P u e r t o R ic o a n d t h e y ' d go out and c i r c l e the lake o u t h e r e b e f o r e d a r k , a n d they ' d g o out a n d c ircle t h e l a k e (3 3) �u n t i l it g o t d a r k a n d c o m e back d o w n t h e N iagara R iv e r a n d go ( o v e r t o t h e other s i de and unload it and it e n d e d u p in all t h e s peak- e a s y ' s and e v e r y t h ing in t h e S t ates t o be s o l d o v e r t h e r e . S.R: A l l t h e w h a t to be s o l d ? W.A: S pe a k - e a s y s they c a l l e d t h e m . D id you say speak-easy s ? B o o t l e g g e r s , they w e r e s e l l ing it illegally b e c a s u e t h e y c o u l d n ' t get a l i c e n s e to s e l l it at that t i m e , b u t t h e y ' d s t ill s e l l . T h e y ' d g e t a l o t m o r e f o r it t h a n t h e y w ou l d at a l ic e n s e d h o u s e . I k n o w , I w o r k e d f o r o n e fellow d o w n i n , h is n a m e w a s S u l l iv a n d o w n in F o r t E r i e , u p t o w a r d s E r ie B each a n d h e a n d h is t w o b r o t h e r s w e r e r u m - r u n n ing all t h e t i m e . Of course, t h e y k n e w m e fr o m be ing a c o n t r a c t o r a n d h e a r d o f m e s o m u ch t h a t t h e y k n e w t h e y c o u l d t e l l m e , or if t h e y w e r e o p e r a t ing u n d e r my nose and I ' d never say anything. T h e y w e re r u n n ing a l l t h e t i m e . T h e y t o o k a l l t h e fr b o o z e in c l o t h b a g s , i n b o t t l e s a n d b a g s . T h ey ' d h a v e a l l t h e s e b a g s r o p e d t o g e t h e r w it h a b o u t t h r e e f e e t o f r o p e between each bag. W h e n t h e y g o t g o ing o v e r d o w n t h e r iv e r , g e t t ing over near the S t a t e s . . . t h e r u m - r u n n e r s u s e d t o be p l y ing the r iv e r ( u p a n d d o w n p a t r o l l ing . O f c ou r s e t h e ir b o a t s w o u l d g o a l o t fas t e r and they could catch the rum- runners . They used to when one, t h e y ' d h e a r o n e c o m ing , t h e y ' d h a v e t h is , m ay b e s ix o r e ig h t b a g s o f b o o z e t ie d o n t h e r o p e s o n t h e b a c k o f t h a t b o a t . When they' d h e a r . . . a n d be t o w i n g it . . . a n d t h e y ' d h e a r a r u m - r u n n e r c o m in g , t h e y ' d t a k e a k n ife a n d c u t t h e r o p e a n d l e t a l l t h e b o o z e s ink t o t h e b o t t o m . They knew from t h e shore, they knew the shore real w e l l and they' d k n o w p r e t t y . near r ig h t w h e r e t h e y c u t it loos e , w it h i n a h u n d r e d feet or so maybe. T h e n e x t d a y t h ey ' d g e t o u t t h e r e w it h b i g g r a p p l ing hooks w h ich are abo u t e ight inch e s , and t h r e e of t h e m . . . one t h is w a y , a n d t h a t w a y , a n d one t h i s w a y . . . a n d t h e y ' d d r a g t h o s e back and f o r t h in t he r e . E v e ntually t h e y w o u l d c a t c h t h e r o p e h o o k ing t h is bag t o t h is bag. up. Then they' d b e a b le to pull the w h ole bunch T he n they' d r e c e ive it all that t h e y ' d cut lo ose t h e n i g h t b e f o r e . O f c o u r s e they m a d e . . . it was a rough r a c k e t but I g u e s s they m a d e a lot of money o n it . But h e u s e d t o t e l l m e that b e c a u s e h e k n e w I w o u l d n e v e r say a n y t h i n g . ( T h e y ' r e all d e a d n o w . . . a n d w a n t t o e v e n r e peat it n o w because t h e y w e r e a pretty rough b u n c h o f cus t o m e r s . T h e n t h e . . . I k n o w another fellow that , due t o w o r k ing on a h o u s e up at B u r na b y , a b o v e P o rt C o l b o r n e . They h a d a g r a v e l l e d r o a d t h e r e , g r a v e l l e d w it h l a k e s h o re g r a v e l , w h ic h is l ittle round s to n e s . �It w o n ' t pack tog e t h e r , it w il l . . . unle s s i t ' s m ix e d w it h d i r t or s o m e t h ing . ( If you g e t into it w it h a veh icle you r w h e e l s a r e g o ing t o t u r n in on it a n d you' r e apt t o b u r r y y o u r s e l f and get s tuck . We w e re w o rk ing u p at this Burnaby on a h o us e , and we w e r e stay ing . . . b e ings it was u p out t w e nt y m il e s to d r iv e , w e w e r e s t ay ing u p t h e r e , l iv ing in t h e garag e . We bu ilt t h e g a r a g e first and w e were l i v in g in c o t s , a n d cook ing on an o il s t o v e in t h e g a r age . heck, w ha t w a s h is last na m e . We m e t t h is D u k e . . . oh I'll g e t it aft e r a b it . . . w e met h i m anyh o w a n d h e k n e w u s , a n d w e w e r e w o r k ing t h e r e , a n d h e d idn' t h a v e any f e a r of u s . H e w a s do ing t h e s a m e t h ing . H e would work. . .h e w a s o p e r a t ing o u t o f H u m be r s t o n e . . . i t j o ins P o r t C o l b o r n e . I t is P a r � C o l b o r n e n o w , t h e s a m e as F o r t E r ie is all, and B r idge b u r g ' s all one. H u m b e r s t o n e an.ct P o r t C o l b o r n e u s e d to be s e pa r at e . He w a s o p e r a t ing o u t o f H u rn b e r s t on e a n d h a d a l a k e s h o r e c o t t ag e . H e ' d go d o w n to t h e l i q u o r s t o r e s a n d g e t a w h o l e b u n c h to s h i p it o u t a n d it w a s t o g o t o C le v e l a n d N e w Y o r k o r s o m e p l a c e a n d h a v e it d o w n t h e r e . H e ' d c i r c l e a r o u n d u n t il it got d a r k a n d h e ' d c o m e in a n d s t o r e it in h is c o t tage a n d h e ' d k e e p it in t h e r e m a y b e ( three o r four days, just s o they wouldn't be looking for h i m any m o r e , l o a d i t on a t n ig h t a ft e r d a r k a n d t a k e o f f a n d go d o w n a n y p l a c e b e t w e e n C l e v e l a n d a n d Bu f f a l o a n d u n l o a d it s o m e p l a c e w h e r e t h e y h a v e p e o p le g o ing t o m e e t h i m . S o o n e n ig h t w e w e r e . . . t h e r e w e r e t h r e e of u s s l e e p ing in t h is g a r age a n d a b o u t t w o o ' c l o c k i n t h e m o r n ing w e heard t h is eng ine r o a r ing l ike all g e t out. be D u k e a l r ig h t , o r s o m e of h is m e n . a s s is t anc e . W e figu r e d it w o u l d S o w e w e n t o u t t o offe r o u r W h e n t h e y s a w u s c o m ing w ith the i r h e a d l i g h t s , t h e y d id n ' t k n o w u s u n t i l w e g o t c l o s e r . . . t h e y h a d o n e fello w . He was I t a l ia n , a n d h e t o l d W in d to g e t a r o u n d t o t h e back of t h e c a r a n d w a t c h e d ' t ill h e found o u t fo r s u r e w h o w e w e r e . a r e volve r . And h e had a gun, W e g o t d o w n t h e r e a n d r ig h t a w a y h e s a w u s a n d k n e w u s a n d s a i d , o h , i t ' s alr igh t , a n d calle d m e by n a m e . A n d he c o m e around a n d w a s chuck ing h is g u n d o w n in h is belt . . . a n d t h e t h r e e o f us push ing on it w e w e r e able to p u s h h i m o u t . W h ile h e k n e w we w o u l d n ' t do any t h in g , but to be a l it t le b it safe , or k e e p o n t h e g o o d s ide o f u s , he gave us a b o t t l e of w h is ke y . ( W e l l , w e d id n ' t g o to b e d any m o r e that n ig h t , it w a s about t w o o' c lock in t h e m o r n in g . W e e n d e d u p g e t t ing p ie - e y e d a n d w e n t s w i m m ing a n d I don' t know w h a t all. S o w e u s e d to h a v e a lot o f fun but • • . he used to • . . he was �a rum-runner. ( D u k e , Duke , D u k e E l s . . . n o t E l l s w o r t h . o f h is last name any m o r e . I c a n ' t t h ink They s t il l have the h o t e l in H u m be rs t o n e , r ig h t as you go o v e r t h e H u m be r s t o n e B r id g e . I t w o u l d be t h e n o r t h b r i d g e in . . . a c r o s s t h e c a n a l in . . . w h a t is n o w k n o w n as P o r t C o l b o r n e . W e l l , w e u s e d t o h a v e a l o t of f u n . I know we was up there one t i m e , f o u r o f u s w o r k i n g , a n d t h a t w a s aft e r w e w e r e b u il d ing t h e house. H e c a m e a l o n g t h e r e t h is one d a y , a n d c a m e in and s p e n t the t i m e o f day m o r e or les s , f o r a m in u t e o r t w o w it h u s a n d b r o u g h t in a c a s e of b e e r . A n d a t t h a t t i m e w e w e r e c o m ing b a c k h o m e . I t h ink w e w e r e u p d o i n g s o m e r e p a i r s o r s o m e p i c k - u p w o r k , o r s o m e t h in g t h a t h a d n ' t b e e n f i n i s h e d . W e g o t p r e t t y w e l l po[ u t e d w it h t h e c a s e of b e e r anyh ow , a n d c o m ing h o m e to R id g e w a y ; t h e o n e f e l l o w t h a t w a s d r iv ing h a d a M o d e l T T o u r ing C a r . That ' s t h e o l d fas h i o n e d , a n d it h a d t h e s i d e c u r t a i n s a n d e v e r y t h ing o n i t . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u ' d r e m e m be r t h e m o r n o t . I s i n g l a s s in t h e s i d e s f o r t h e w in d o w s . N o t l ik e l y . It w a s s t u ff t h a t w o u l d b e n d . I t ' s l ik e t h e s t u f f t h a t t h e y h a v e i n s t o v e s t h a t y o u c a n s e e f i r e t h r o u g h o r any t h ing . I like g l a s s . Y o u c o u l d s e e t h r ou g h it b u t it w a s n ' t s t iff T h a t was what t h e c a r w a s built . . . h a d g l a s s e s like t h a t . . . o r w in d o w s l i k e t h a t . W e got p r e t t y n e a r d o w n t o S h e r k s t o n t h e n a n d I h a d . . . I h a d a d a t e t h a t n ig h t a n d w a n t e d t o g e t h o m e e a r l y a n d w e w o r k e d a l it t l e lat e r b e t w e e n d r in k ing a n d f in i s h ing . I was w a n t ing t o get h o m e a n d I s a y s t o t h e g u y d r i v i n g , I s ay s , won't t h i s th ing go any fas t e r ? I can r u n fas t e r t h a n t h at ' s g o i n g . I ' d l ik e to s e e y a . I s a i d , l e t me out . r ig h t along s ide o f it . He says yeah , B u t I g o t o u t a n d w a s r u n n ing H e l e t m e k e e p e v e n w it h him f o r quite a w h ile and f inally s t a r t e d go ing ah e a d . H e g o t ahead of m e fo r , q u i t e a l i t t l e b i t ahead , a n d h e s t o p p e d and w a it e d ' t il l I caught up and said, w e l l a r e you ready t o g e t in o r n o t ? all g o t u s into t ha t . S.R: The r u m - r u n n e r s W e u s e d to have a l o t of fun u p t h e r e . D o you k n o w any t h ing about the railroad d ay s ? When the railroad was r eally g o ing s t r o ng in the area. W.A: W e l l , t h e r e used to be a lot of t r a ins w e n t t h r o u g h R id g e w a y h e r e . F re ight w a s t e r r i f ic at that t i m e . t h e road. There w as no t r u c k s much o n A ll freight w as pract ically d e l i v e r e d by r a ilroad going t o B uffalo and back and fo r t h . Oh, there w a s a lot o f t r a ins g o ing t h r o u g h R idgeway at that t i m e . T h e y ' r e all c a n c e l l e d out now . Now there isn' t a one any m o r e . They got t o r u n o n e e v e r y h u n d r e d (36) y eo. r s �to k e e p t h e i r franch ise , and that ' s all. it o r n o t I d o n ' t k n o w . ( go ing pas t . S o whether they'll ever keep B u t at t h a t t i m e t h e r e w a s a lot of t r a ins P as s e n g e r t r a ins were g o ing all t h e t i m e back and forth to Buffalo, and all t h e w ay u p to G o d e r ic h in C a n a d a . I guess you went all t h e w a y t o W in d s o r and D e t r o i t , b u t you h a d to change once o r t w ic e t o g e t t h e r e . B u t there w a s a b u s y t i m e at that t i m e . We h a d a g o o d s t a t io n h e r e i n R id g e w a y . W e h a d t w o ope rat o r s , a n ig h t a n d a d a y o p e r a t o r a n d t h e y h a d t o w o rk t w e l v e h o u r s h i ft s . S.R: Do y o u r e c a l l a n y n a m e s ? W.A: W e l l , A l b e r t Y a k , h e w a s t h e s e n i o r o n e a n d h e h a d t h e d a y sh ift be ings h e h a d p r e f e r e n c e and, oh w h at was . . . K e n d r ic k , oh . . . h is las t name was Kendr ick . S.R: H e w a s the fellow t h a t d id t h e n ig h t sh ift . D o y o u r e m e m b e r a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h e y e a r o f t h is ? A rou gh e s t i m ate on h o w o l d y o u w e r e . W.A: W e l l , I d o n ' t know . I w a s o n t h e h ig h s c h o o l b o a r d s e v e n y e a r s , a n d t h is A l b e r t Y a k , t h e f e l l o w t h a t w a s d a y o pe r a t o r , w as o n t h e h ig h s c h o o l b o a r d the s a m e t i m e I w a s . A n d t h e h ig h s c h o o l w as b u ilt in 1 9 27 so M r . Y a k , he w a s on t h e r e t h e n y e t , an d t h a t w a s 1 9 27 . ( S.R: S o it w a s b e f o r e 1 9 2 7 ? W.A: Yeah , b e f o r e 19 27 . A n d t h a t ' s the s a m e s t at i o n t h a t w a s lat e r m o v e d t o F o r t E r ie , u p n e a r H o r t o n S t e e l . S.R: l s t h e r e o n e i n R id g e w a y n o w ? W.A: N o , no s t a t io n . S.R: Th e r e j u s t w a s n ' t e n o u g h b u s i n e s s f o r t h e t r a i n t o w a r r a n t a s t o p T ha t s t a t io n ' s all g o n e . i n R id g e w a y ? W.A: W e l l , a l l the f r e ight was cut o u t , or t h e b ig g e s t p a r t was a l l c u t out . T r ucks c u t t h e m o u t . T h e ra ilroads for a l o n g run . . . l ik e if you w a s go ing t o sh ip s o m e t h ing t o W innipeg o r w a y out to t h e C anad ian w e s t , a long run, it w a s much cheape r to run by r a ilroad than it was b y t r u c k , b y gas p o w e r e d v e h i c le s . pa r t of it out t o t r u c k ing l ines . p u t t h e m out h e r e . S o they lost t h e b ig g e s t I t h ink t h a t ' s reall y , p r o b a b l y w h a t N o t only that , b u s s e s put t h e pas s e ng e r s e r v ic e out of c o m m is s io n as w e l l . N o t only that , t r a ins o n l y s t o p at c e r t a in s t at ions and s o m e of t h e m w e r e quite a lo ng w a y s a p a r t . There was n ' t any b e t w e e n P o r t C ol b o r ne a n d D u n v ille fo r instance. ( I ' d s a y Dunnv ille w a s f o r t y a n d t w e l v e . .• t w e nty-e ight m iles . t w e n ty - e ight m il e s t h e r e b e t w e e n s t a t ions . And There's W h e r e t h e b u s w il l l e t y o u o f f a t any l i t tle s ide r o a d o r anyth ing you w a n t e d t o d o . (37) �S.R: ( So y o u w o u l d s t ill have to g e t a bus o r a t ax i ? So even e x p e ns e w is e it w o u l d be m o r e e x p e n s ive u s ing t h e t r a in . W.A: T h a t ' s r ig h t . and busses . not. The r a il r oa d s got p i n c h e d out o f b u s iness by t r u c k s A n d I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r it w il l e v e r c o m e b a c k o r I thought about that d iffe r e n t t i m e s m y se l f . If g a s o l ine k e e p s g ing u p , and u p , and u p l ik e it is , a n d soft c o a l . . . all t h e r a il r oa d s f i r e d w ith s oft c o a l w h ich is t h e c h e a p e s t k ind of c o a l g o in g . A l be r t a ' s g o t m il l ions of t o n of it o u t t h e r e . And A l o t o f i t ' s . . .I ' v e b e e n t h r o u g h t h e m and a lot o f t h e m in e s o u t t h e r e , t h ey ' r e all s u rface m in e s . Y o u don't e v e n n e e d t o d ig down in . . . t u n n e l d o w n in t h e g r o u n d f o r it l ik e t h e y d o o u r c o p p e r a n d g o l d a n d the o t h e r m in e s h e r e i n , a n d r o c k in O n t a r i o . m in e s . O u t t h e r e it ' s a l l , a l o t o f i t ' s a l l s u r fa c e V e r y c h e a p t o m in e a n d g e t , s o if g a s o l i n e k e e p s g o i n g u p f o r t h e t r u c k s a n d t h ings a n d g e t s s o s c a r c e , i t m ig h t c o m e b a c k t o t h e r a il r o a d s o m e t i m e , a n d w e ' l l h a v e t o g o b a c k a n d c o m e i n t o g o i n g b y w it h f ir e a n d c o a l . S.R: W it h t h e w a y t h ings a r e t h o u g h t a b o u t p o lu t io n , t h a t p r o b a b l y w on ' t happen. ( W.A: B u t I h o pe I n e v e r s e e it . A l l t h e c o a l s m o k e in t h e a ir a n d s t u f f . W e l l , I d o n ' t kn o w . T h e . . . a c t u ally I d o n ' t t h ink t h e t r a ins m a d e any more s m ok e t h a n t h e busses a n d t r u c k s d o because t h e r e ' s s o many more of the m . S.R: Y o u w e r e a m a s o n c o n t r ac t o r . I s t h e r e a n y b ig j o b s o r a n y j o bs h a v ing t o do w ith h is t o r ic a l t h ings t h a t y o u ' d l ike to ta l k a b o u t ? W.A: W e l l , i n 194 0 , I had a j o b b u ild ing a p r iv a t e h o m e up on the lake front a b o v e P o int A b ino a b o u t a m ile , f o r a B u ffalo m a n . H e was a c o n t r a c t o r l ik e w i s e . B u il d ing A nd t h is w a s a f i r e p r oo f b u il d ing . t h e floor was all made o u t of w h a t they call flex i- c o r e s , w h ich w as a b o u t a foot w id e and a b o u t s e v e n i n c h e s d e e p and t h e r e w a s t w o t h r e e inch h olesth r o u g h t h e m e n d t o e n d . T h os e w e r e a l l r e info r c e d w it h r o d s , and t h e y f it t i g h t t o g e th e r on t h e b o t t o m . They, w ere m a d e i n for m s t h a t w e r e s h a k e n s o t h a t t h e y w e r e as s m o o t h a s c a n be u n d e rneat h , a n d t h ey w e r e m ad e l ik e a V - j o int o n t h e b o t t o m . The n o n the t o p , t h e . . . t h e r e w a s a c r a c k b e t w e e n each one about t h r e e quar t e r s of an inch w id e and there w a s a groove in each one , you h a d t o put a bea m across t h e t o p and b o l t s and pull t h e m u p ( so t h e y w e r e all o n e leve l . T h e n y o u po u r e d c o n c r e t e d o w n t h e r e and in t w o o r t h r e e d a y s w h e n i t got h a r d , be ings they' d g o b a c k in t h e s ide c r a c k s in each bea m , t h e w hole t h ing could n ' t m o v e . (38) �They h a d to s t ay p e r fe c t l y l e v e l and it m ad e a n ic e s m oo t h c e iling a n d e v e r y t h in g . ( S t a ir w ay s w e re all concrete a n d steel a n d e v e ry t h i n g . T h a t w as my b igges t j o b . I h a d e l e v e n b r ick lay e r s on t h a t , p l u s f ive h e l pe r s I g u e s s . S.R: W a s it s o m e t h ing n e w t o b u i l d a f i r e p r oof hou s e ? W.A: W e l l , it was a f i r e p r o o f h o u s e and it was m o r e or l e s s I t h ink s u p p o s e d t o be an a d f o r t h e s e fle x i- c o r e s . . . f ir e p roof floo rs , and a l s o s o u n d p r o o f . B u t a n y h o w it t u r n e d o u t th is f e l l o w w a s a c o n t r a c t o r in B u ffalo h i m s e l f , and h e w a s b u i l d ing the West S e ne c a H ig h s ch o o l at t h a t time. T h e b r ick lay e r s c o n t r a c t r u n o u t o v e r t h e r e , a n d th e y w e n t out on s t r ik e . A n d h e ' d f igu r e d t h is in at a c e r t a in p r i c e p e r h o u r f o r t h e b r ick lay e r s a n d w h e n t h e y c o m e b a c k in t h e y g o t e ig h t y c e n t s a n d h o u r m o r e t h a n w h a t h e h a d f igu r e d in o n the c on.t r a c t . T h e f e l l o w s t h a t r u n t h e l ift s , engine e r s , t o o k t h e f r e ig h t e l e v a t o r s u p a n d d o w n , w h e el b a r r o w s f u l l of br ic k s a n d c o n c r e t e a n d e v e r y th ing , t h e y got I t h ink a d o l l a r an h o u r m o r e . A n d not only t h a t , t h e y got a r i d e r in t h e ir c o n t r a c t that they c o u l d n ' t s h ift t h e m m o re t h a n once a d a y . ( A s f o r s h ift ing I m e a n . . . t h e y c o u l d ta k e t h e m off t h e l ift , t h e e l e v a t o r took t h e m u p a n d d o w n a n d p u t t h e m on a c r a n e t h a t l if t e d t h e b i g s t o n e s il l s u p f o r under the w in d o w s , a n d s w ing the m a r o u n d a n d l e t t h e m in p l a c e . o r ig inal c o n t r a c t o r t h e y ta k e a n d d o t h a t . T h e y take t h e m . . . t h e T a k e t h e m o f f t h e l ift a n d p u t them o n t h e c r a n e , a n d put the m f r o m the crane back o n the l i f t . T h e y c o u l d n ' t do that in the n e w c o n t r ac t . If t h e y g o t t h r o u g h t h e . . . p u t t ing t h e s ills u p at t h r e e o ' c l o c k i n the aft e r n o o n , t h e y h a d to p a y t h e m t h e e x t r a t w o hou r s t h r o u gh ' t il l f iv e o ' c l o c k and t h e y d id n ' t do a n y t h ing . the m a c h i n e . They' d h a v e t o g e t ano t h e r guy c o m e o u t a n d pay h i m a half a day . t o bankruptcy. A n d not o n l y that , t h e y c o u l d n ' t u s e So b e t w e e n t h e t w o , i t put B i i l B o r na m in t h r ough H e came over t h e r e two days in a r o w a n d s a t t h e r e fo r a c ou p le h o u r s o u t o n t h e balcony and t e r r ac e , j u s t l o o k i n g a t the water. w it h B il l . A n d I said t o the men. I s a i d s o m e t h ing is t h e m a t t e r I s a y s h e ' s not r igh t , h e wasn' t talk ing and a t t h e e n d of t h e s e c o n d day h e c o m e o v e r and s a i d t o m e , B il l h e s a i d , I ' v e g o t s o m e t h ing t o t e l l y a . ( you a s w e l l as i t d o e s m e . H e s a y s , i t ' s s o m e t h ing t h a t c o n c e r n s H e s a y s , I' m going t o h a v e to g o t h r ou g h bank r u p t c y on t h a t s c h ool j o b . A n d h e says , I m ig h t not b e able to pay you . S atu r d ay n ig h t f o r t o c o v e r y o u r e l e v e n m e n and y o u r (3 9 ) �five helpers and yorurself. H e say s , if y o u . . ; a r e you f inanc ially s it u a t e d that you can c a r r y me as long as t h r e e w e e k s at a t i m e ? ( A n d I gave it a r ough th o u g h t and I , m o r e o r l e s s t h i n k i n g , w e l l , w h a t a m I g e t t in g int o h e r e ? I t w a s n ' t t h a t I c o u l d n ' t financ ially I c o u l d have d o n e that alr igh t . to let you k n o w about that. S o f inally I s a i d I said , I'll , , w e l l B il l , I ' l l have let you know t o m o r row . S o he c o m e o v e r t h e n e x t day a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I could l e t h i m h a v e t w o w e e k s a n y h o w a n d pos s i b le t h e t h i r d w e e k , if I h a d t o . H e w a s as hone s t as t h e day w a s lon g . H e c o m e o v e r at t h e e n d of o n e w e e k a n d g ive m e s o m u ch a n d t h e e n d of t w o w e ek s h e c o m e o v e r a n d g a v e m e s o m u ch m o re . Three weeks h e gave m e more, a n d w h e n I g o t a l l f i n is h e d I w a s a l l p a i d u p a n d h e n e v e r o w e d m e a n ic k l e . B u t h e o w n e d p r o p e r t y i n C an a d a t h a t , a n d t h a t ' s w h a t c a r r i e d h i m t h r ou g h o v e r h e r e . B e c a u s e g o ing t h r o u g h b a n k r u p t c y o v e r t h e r e , t h e y c ou l d n ' t a t t a c h a ny t h i n g o v e r h e r e . H e w a s h a v ing in c o m e c o m i n g f r o m p r o p e r t y a n d s t u f f that he o w n e d o v e r h e r e in C anada. H e h a d to g o back a n d s t a r t o u t f r o m a s h oe s t r in g . H e w e n t b a c k i n t o t h e p a i n t i n g b u s i n e s s , w h ich h e w a s a pa i n t ing c o n t r a c t o r o r ig i nally . { Two o r t h r e e guys a n d a n old b e a t u p van a n d s o m e la d d e r s , w e n t b a c k p a i n t ing h o u s e s , a n d a ny t h i n g h e c o u l d g e t , w o rk i n g h is w a y b a c k u p a g a i n . But h e . . . betw een the loss and, I s u p p o s e t h e h u m il i a t i o n , o n e t h ing an d a n o t h e r , a y e a r a n d a h a l f af t e r w a r d s h e d r o p p e d d e a d o f a h e a r t a t t a c k . H e never owed me a n ic k l e , b u t he c o u l d h a v e o w e d m e q u i t e a l o t a t o n e t i m e . That w a s m y m a in b i g job . B u t I b u i l t t h e f i r e h a l l h e re in R i d g e way a n d I bu ilt t h e R i d g e D a i r y in C ry s tal B e ach , a n d t h e y we re g o o d s i z e d b u i l d ings t o o . B u t t h e r e is n ' t e n o u g h b i g b u i l d ings g o i n g o n d o w n h e r e t o k e e p a f e l l o w b u s y w it h m a n y m e n . B u i l d in g s a r e s m all a n d if you ha ve four o r five m e n , t h a t ' s about all you could g e t w o r k e n o u g h ah e a d a t one t i m e t o k e e p g o ing . S.R: A re t h e r e a n y c l o s ing c o m m e n t s , o t h e r c o m m en t s that you w ould l ik e t o m ake at all ? W.A: W e l l , I d on ' t k no w . It l o o k s to me as if t h e fut u r e ahea d , e s p e c ially fot the young e r g e n e r a t i o n , that . . . c o m ing on now , that unless they g o t h r ough college and g e t a d e g r e e of s o m e kind, o r get a good ( trade of some kind, t h a t w ould b e my a d v ic e t o t h e g r o w ing up young people o f today . They need t o g e t a degree in s o m e th ing o r a good trade, other tha n that it looks t o m e as if they're g o ing t o end up (4 0 ) �dit ch diggers or som e thing for the rest of their life. The competition's too keen. ( S.R: There's too m any people and not enough j obs. W.A: N o t only that , but the nickle plant , when they first started up here it w as only three companies. They could sell nickle any place they w anted and as much as they could produce . N o I underst and there is over forty of the m . That's in Europe and all over. The competition's ke en. It usesd t o be the companies all hated the m be cause they w ere paying high w ages and they w ere exp e c t ed t o meet their w ages. No w the nickle plants h ardly keep . . . are able to keep their o wn h e ad above the water. In f a c t , there's t alk even o f Port Colborne shut ting d o w n , and operating only from Sudbury. It might even c o m e t o that . S.R: So there's enough ni ckle that people aren't going t o pay the high pri ce no w . W.A: Well, the pri ces h ave dropped down beings they can't sell it and with w ages going up . I t ' s . . . well everythl �. is changing over. Drastic change is t aking place right over nigh t . S.R: Is that all for your closing c o m m ents? W.A: Well, I can't think o f anything else . I w ould think th ough that . . . like I said to repeat , that I think a young fello w t oday should either get a good trade or a good education. S.R: If he w ants t o support hi m s e l f and a family. W.A: And support him sel f and a family and keep steadily e mployed. S.R: Well, thank you very much for the intervie w Mr. Athoe. W.A: Well, I'm glad you w ere able to come up and int ervie w me. I'm sorry I couldn't tell you m ore than I did, but I did tell you a l o t , probably half of it's not very interesting. S.R: No, it's all interesting. (4 1 ) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Shelley Richer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. William Athoe Location The location of the interview. Mr. Athoe's home at 3836 Highland Avenue Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Athoe, William Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of William Athoe's interview. He discusses such topics as: Medicine Transportation Heating Schools Churches Wedding traditions Politics Stores Hotels and taverns Erie Beach Policing Bootleggers (American Prohibition) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 26, 1985 1980s 1985 Erie Beach Fort Erie Oral history shelley richer transcripts william athoe http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/7bc35688d261fb2bb1e89124dd4de349.pdf 7312cfacf61eba3bdd6b83a9a08181ed PDF Text Text ��������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Beverly Branton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Flossie Baxter Location The location of the interview. Crescent Park Lodge, Fort Erie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Baxter, Flossie Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of Flossie Baxter's interview. She discusses such topics as: Bkack Creek Windmill Point Life on the farm Schools Life in fort Erie in the early 1900s Transportation Queens Hotel The Great Depression Peace Bridge Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 1985 1980s 1985 Black Creek Fort Erie Great Depression Oral history peace bridge transcripts windmill point http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/83a2ec58960ee7b6ec21b370e0a02d64.pdf f3c61d32283f00638adb538643130be3 PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer interviewing Mrs. Shirley Beam, in her home, at 2521 Coral Avenue, in Stevensville, on September 25, 1985. S.R: Hello Mrs. Beam, and how are you today ? S.B: Fine. S.R: What is your date of birth ? S.B: June the 1 1th, 1926. S.R: Where were you born ? S.B: In Stevensville. S.R: Where in Stevensville, was there a hospital, or in a home ? S.B: In a home. S.R: Where would that be ? S.B: On the main street in Stevensville. It was then called Victoria Avenue, but it's Stevensville Road now. S.R: When did that change ? S.B: I couldn't tell you. S.R: A little while ago, a long time ago ? S.B: No, a long time ago, when I was a child. S.R: Have you ever heard why it changed ? S.B: Oh, it was just... the roads were changed, just like they have been today. Regional changed the Townline Road, Netherby Townline Road to Regional so-and-so, and that was just changed. That was Victoria Avenue when I was born. S.R: Have you lived in Stevensville all your life ? .· S.B: Yes I have. S.R: What brought your family to Stevensville, when did they come, and why ? S.B: My great grandfather was a tailor by trade, and he came to Stevensville in 1847. S.R: Where did he come from ? S.B: He came from England. S.R: Would you have any idea why he came to Stevensville ? S.B: No, I have no idea whether he had brothers or sisters here, I have no recollection of that. We tried to get his birth certificate and more history, but it was just not available, it was burnt. S.R: Was his wife a local lady ? (1) �S.B: No, his first wife was from Wasaga Beach, up around Barrie. She was an Oxtoby. S.R: What's an Oxtoby ? S.B: No, that was her name. Then he married again and her name was Mc Dade. S.R: Your great grandfather's name was Wade ? S.B: It was William Walter Wade, the one that came over from England. He was the tailor, and then his son, who is my grandfather was Coleman Ansley Wade. He carried on the tailoring business in our home. S.R: Going back to your great grandfather, how was his business run ? S.B: His business was not run from the house. In those days they went from town to town and they would tailor. They would go to Fort Erie for a week, or whatever length of time they needed to stay. Then they would come home, then they would go to Ridgeway, and then come home, then Port Colborne, Welland, and all over the area. S.R: Was it a very prosperous trade ? S.B: Yes it was, it certainly was. S.R: Would you have any idea... have you ever found any records on the prices of suits when your great grandfather did it or when your grandfather did it ? S.B: No, no, I couldn't tell you that. S.R: Did they have sewing machines then ? S.B: Yes. S.R: Did your great grandfather tote a sewing machine around with him ? S.B: I think he would get... I don't know whether he would get home and make them. I couldn't tell you that. S.R: Oh, so he might have went to town to dig up business, came home and sewed it, then the next time take it back ? S.B: I don't know. I have his original scissors. S.R: What kind were they ? Do they have a name of them ? S.B: I don't think so, but they're about 14 inches long. S.R: And they're still good quality ? S.B: They certainly are. They're not like you get today. (2) �S.R: So if you sewed you could still use them ? S.B: The date on the scissors is 1859. S.R: They're well made scissors and very heavy to try to use them. S.B: ( And I still use the twill tape, in my construction of suits and coats, that my grandfather bought. S.R: That's how good it was ? It hasn't rotted or anything, after all this time ? S.B: No, it certainly hasn't, and I've got a whole bolt of hair cloth that they used to use in making men's suits, that they used for the collars. Hair cloth, picky as the dukes. S.R: Your grandfather then, started it in the home ? S.B: Yes, he started it in one room of the house. S.R: Was it just him ? S.B: Yes, he was the only one of 14 children that was interested in the tailoring business. My great grandfather was one of the first business people in Stevensville, and he lived here until he died. He and my grandmother both died in Stevensville and my grandfather died in 1935. They both sewed for all the prominent people in Stevensville. ( They always said that when my grandfather, who was Coleman and they always called him Coley, and said when his suit was completely worn out, the buttons were still there. They never, ever, had to be sewn on. S.R: There was somebody that you had mentioned that still had... ? S.B: Yes, Cliff Winger, he used to go to market every week at Niagara Falls and sell cheese, and eggs, and butter. When I did a story about Cliff when he retired, and he was up in years, he had his formal suit that he wore to the Masons. He showed me the suit that my grandfather had made. That was probably 10 years ago he showed it to me. He's still wearing it every month to the monthly meetings. The lining was completely gone but the suit looked just like it did then. S.R: S.B: Oh yes, oh yes. S.R: ( Would the suit be 50 or 60 years old ? And the tailoring was still intact then ? S.B: Oh yes, very, very much. S.R: Where on Victoria, which is now Stevensville Road, was the Wade homestead ? (3) �It was right up near the fire hall. S.R: That's past the creek going towards, or over, the railroad tracks ? S.B: ( S.B: No, it was on the south side of the railroad track. Today there's a gasoline station and the fire hall... the fire hall, the gasoline station, then my old homestead. It was right there. S.R: How long was that in the family, and you had mentioned a large amount of children born there ? S.B: Twenty-one children, 2 1 of the Wade children were born in that house. S.R: How long did it stay in the Wade family ? S.B: It stayed in the Wade family until 1967, when my mother died. S.R: That was 120 years then, from 1847 when you grandfather came over, to 1967? S.B: Yes, then my mother was the last one. Grant you, she wasn't a Wade, but she had lived there every since she was married. She was from Sherkston. S.R: Is there anything else that you would like to mention about the Wade family, any of their achievements with the Town, or anything ( like that ? S.B: Well, there was two maiden aunts that never married, Elmira and Florence, and they always kept boarders. They would board... some of them stayed, slept there, but a lot of them just had their meals there, and it was school teachers and bankers. S.R: Was that on the homestead or was that in their private home ? S.B: No, no, it was on the homestead, and there was always a great big long table that always had a linen tablecloth and napkin rings, and it was very formal. S.R: It was like a restaurant then ? S.B: No, no, it wasn't a restaurant, you didn't order what you wanted to eat, it was... S.R: No, it was kept nice and respectable like a restaurant rather than just a family kitchen ? S.B: Yes, and there was always a lot of goodies. There was 100 pounds of this kind of flour and 100 pounds of sugar. It was the bins that ( would tip forward and there was always ample food. The train station was close by. (4) �( S.R: That helped with business then right ? S.B: Well, not really... it helped with begging for food, because there was a lot of tramps that would come in on the tracks in those days. Anyway, there was always a tramp at the back door, a tramp or two, and they'd be begging for food. My two great aunts would always give them food, you know, sit them in a comfortable chair. One day my father went up to the station and on the back of the door it said, "If you want a good square meal, go to the first house on the left-hand side", so he erased it and we didn't get half the tramps. But, they came back even after my aunties died. They came back and visited the old home and... just before my mother died in '67, they came back and said, " Margaret, can I go out and look at the dining room", and she said it still looks the same as it did 40 years ago. But, they were always welcome in the home. S.R: S.B: As far as I know. S.R: ( Is that it for the Wade's then ? Going back to your school days, could you tell me what school you attended and where it was located ? S.B: Yes, it was in Stevensville, and the first school I went to was a little frame building on, I think it's Airline Street, and we always called it the Little Pigpen. S.R: Why would it be called that ? S.B: Well, that's about what it amounted to. There wasn't any toilet facilities there at all, and you had to go and go over to the brick school that is adjacent to that. These two buildings are still standing. You had to go over to the basement of the brick building to go, and when you're six years old... there was no kindergarten, of course... and you'd have to put your coat on and your boots, to go out and go to the bathroom. S.R: It may as well be an outhouse, right ? S.B: Yes, that's right, but it wasn't that close. You had to go, you know, quite a distance to go to the brick school house. Then, I got my other education, my other public school education in the brick school that still stands. ( S.R: What years then, did the Pigpen school... what number is that school ? S.B: We're the No. 9. (5) �S.R: Was the brick one No. 9 too ? S.B: . Yes. S.R: ( The little part of the school, the wooden part, what grades did that go to ? S.B: One and two, I think, because in those days it was A and B. S.R: A and B ? S.B: Yes, A, B, C, D, you know, and then the other grades, until you went to high school, was in the brick building. S.R: Where would you go to high shcool ? S.B: It was a continuation school, where our public school is today. S.R: That would get you ready for college then ? S.B: There was a grade 13. But, there were different things like... we didn't have a great, like, in this continuation school there wasn't a great science programme, and home ec., this type of thing, it was a continuation school. So, then that in turn was changed into the... when the public school, the brick and the little frame building was no longer able to be used as a school, then we changed and used the continuation school as a public school, and bused the children ( either to Ridgeway or Fort Erie. S.R: Was it because the brick and the frame buildings were too small, or they didn't meet the safety codes ? S.B: They didn't meet the safety codes, no, it was terrible. S.R: Would you remember approximately when that was ? S.B: Well, I went to the continuation school. .. so, I would say that it would be about the 1960s that the public school was no longer able to be used. S.R: Did they ever put washroom facilities, that you know of, in that little frame building ? S.B: There were. .. like a chemical toilet type thing, but in the frame building, no, there was never .... chemical toilet, because there wasn't any water in Stevensville in those days, like, there wasn't any water brought in, you know, it had to be, you know, cisterns, or wells. S.R: ( When did Stevensville get public water ? S.B: Oh heavens, I can't tell you. Our daughter was born in '51 and we didn't have water then, we had cisterns, and it was costly. (6) �( S.R: You had to get the water trucked in? S.B: Trucked in, 5 dollars a tank. S.R: Oh, it's over 20 dollars now. S.B: I'm sure. But anyway, it had it's advantages and disadvantages, and I'll tell you Stevensville was in a real uproar at the time. There was a great fire in the States of a lot of children burned to death, and that's when Stevensville got up in arms because there wasn't even a fire escape in the public school in Stevensville, there was nothing. People got up in arms... and all of the staircasing was going... like, to the second floor and below it was the oil barrels that they used to oil the floors with. Everything was underneath the staircase. There was nothing, and if the kids were downstairs in the basement... that's where we went to play because we didn't have a proper schoolyard. S.R: So you didn't have outside recesses? S.B: You'd go downstairs and play, like in the nasty weather, and you'd play downstairs. If you wanted to go up out of the basement you had to go right beside those barrels, and all the mops and everything was kept there. If any fire would have ignited, the children would have never gotten out. That was an awful, awful uproar in Stevensville. There was meetings upon meetings. S.R: Did it take very long to get it changed after that? S.B: Quite awhile. There was a lot of fighting that went on, yeah. No-one wants to have their children on school buses, but you have to take the good with the bad, because they were getting a better education and not just a continuation school education. S.R: Oh, by changing them to the high school? S.B: Yes, because you got your science programme and you got your home ec., and your... and at Fort Erie you got your workshops and everything. So, it was really better. S.R: It was all for the better but people don't want to change? S.B: No, because you have to get your children on the school bus early, and grant you, they're going to be on the road for a certain length of time each day. S.R: Do you recall your teachers or your principal, starting at your first school first? (7) �( S.B: Yeah, my principal was Florence Gilmour, and boy she got every child through. She had special attention for every child. She just worked, if you had a weak subject, she was right there 100 percent behind you. S.R: So she was a teacher too, and not just the principal ? S.B: No, she was a teacher, yes. S.R: What grades did she teach ? S.B: Seven and eight. Then my earlier years it was Eva Sherk, and it is now Eva Sass, still living. Then my first public school teacher was Lichtenberger, she lived in Ridgeway. S.R: Any relation to the Lichtenberger that owns Lichtenberger Electric ? S.B: Yes, Rupheen. S.R: What about the continuation school ? S.B: The principal down there was J. F. Mccaul. I think he's still living. My downfall in school was French. S.R: Oh, they taught French then ? S.B: Yes, French and Latin, and Latin was fine. I could get 98 percent in any exam, and French... I was out of school, I was in the hospital, ( I had my appendix out and I was out for six weeks, and when I went back... Miss Corbett was my teacher, and she didn't have time for a slow student. S.R: Then you can't get caught up because they're learning more on top of what you missed. S.B: There wasn't any tutoring in those days, we couldn't afford it anyway. But anyway, I went back to school and she had a terrible, terrible temper and she just had no patience with me at all, so I quit school. S.R: Oh, you quit school because of that ? S.B: Yes, I had to have my subjects or I wasn't going to pass, and you didn't repeat, not in those days. There wasn't summer school, there was nothing. S.R: If you failed you were out of school then ? S.B: Yes. S.R: What if you failed grade one or something ? S.B: Well no, like public schools, you just kept going on and on, but in high school, yes. S.R: What kind of discipline was used then? (8) �I was expelled a week from school. S.R: What was that for ? S.B: ( S.B: I deserved it very, very much, and I didn't know how I was ever going to go home and tell my parents that I was told to stay home for a week. There was a fellow in school and he was not one that I preferred, a beautiful pianist, so I went and erased some of the boards and got a brush full of chalk. He was playing the piano and I threw it at him. I hit him and I turned around and the principal was behind me, and he said, " What I saw of you you're not a lady, you can go home for a week", and home I went. S.R: Was that in the days when parents said, "If you get the belt at school you'll get it when you get home too ? " S.B: Yes, yes it was, it sure was. I got similar to that when I got home. I wasn't just too popular for a week until I could go back to school. S.R: Are there any other interesting stories that you can recall from school ? Did Stevensville have gas, natural gas to heat the school ? S.B: ( Yes. Well, at the public school it was... I think it was coal. It was a pot-bellied stove. S.R: So they were really behind the times then ? S.B: Yes, I think it was a pot-bellied stove we had there, because I know that Florence Gilmour, she would, in order to punish you in your classroom, she'd hit you with a poker. Many a time, all of us children, you know, across your knuckles, or across your back, or your feet if you were making any noise, you'd get hit with the poker. But down in the continuation school it was, like boilers, it was rads, it was hot water heat. S.R: But with natural gas to heat the water ? S.B:. I think it was... I think it was natural gas. S.R: Were there any stories or any interesting things from school that you'd like to mention ? S.B: Well, when I was going to high school, there was a pond adjacent to the school property and it was always called the duck pond, and all the children skated on that in the wintertime. That continued for many years, that duck pond. I can remember taking my daughter ( down there when... she was born in '5 1, and when she started to skate I'd take her down, because it wasn't that deep, not like the (9) �creek. So, it was real happy times that we spent, and the kids always ( played jokes on everyone else. My goodness sakes, they'd save their apple cores and orange peelings and put them in my boots in the wintertime, and they'd jump on them, and I'd go to put my foot in them and it was just liquid, just juice. But these were the kinds of... they weren't tricks to hurt anyone, it was the harmless ones, and I've got great feelings about my growing up years. S.R: How did they grade them ? Was it A, B, C, numbers... ? S.B: No, it was always marks, yes. S.R: Even from grade one ? S.B: Um, I would say so. I don't know whether grade one, whether it was, you know, you'd get a grading, an actual amount or not, or just a pass. I think it was just a pass, maybe, the first and second grades. But, we never had to write final exams if we made our grades during the year. I know, I never had to write a final exam in my life, ever. S.R: ( So, you were a good student then ? S.B: I had to listen as it was taught to me because I couldn't cram at the end. No, I couldn't ever cram. I had to pay attention. It had to come to me and go in the memory block, and then I could write my exam. If I had to go through the years book it was a lost cause, but I never had to write a final exam in my life. S.R: What kind of activities were there when you were growing up, for entertainment, when you were on a date, or when you were younger ? S.B: Well, we skated in the wintertime, we skated on the creek. It was a lot higher, we could skate right down to the Niagara River. S.R: Why would it be different ? S.B: I don't know, but it was a lot higher and it wasn't the cesspool that it is today. S.R: Now it's just kind of a scum. S.B: It's terrible, just terrible. Edgar Heximer, who built the first fire-engine... he was one of them that built it... he had the garage right adjacent to the creek, and we'd have our... like the nails in the rafters, and there would be along pole that you'd hang your skates up there, ( and there was a pot-bellied stove in there so you could go in there to get warm. Then you'd come out of the building and it was like (IO) �a two level hill. It was always flooded at night, the fellows would flood it, then you could just take one step out of the garage and just go down the hill on your skates. The fellows would shovel it off at the end, when we were finished skating, and flood it. Edgar would go... it had a little platform out of the window upstairs, and had a radio, so we had... you know, we skated to music. We just had a lot of fun, and it was cold. S.R: Did Mr. Heximer ever join in ? S.B: Oh yes, he would skate too, but of course he was working. In those days the garage was open long hours. He was a mechanic and he was doing his work at night. The kids weren't lazy in those days like they are today. I mean, my goodness sakes, there was all kinds of teenagers, and they had hockey tournaments, and it was a real busy place. We had a tennis court in Stevensville. S.R: Where was that ? S.B: That was up where the Memorial Hall is now. S.R: That's on Stevensville Road, right ? S.B: Stevensville Road, yes. There were tournaments that used to be held there. S.R: Local tournaments or teams from other counties ? S.B: Yes. Dr. Buell was our doctor for many, many years in Stevensville, and the funeral director Bert Climenhage, they both won the championships by playing. It was people from other areas that came in. S.R: What else was there to do for summer entertainment ? S.B: Well, we had church entertainment and there was always busy groups in the churches. We had box socials. The girls would pack boxes, provided lunch for two people and then the boys would buy it. S.R: It was a way of earning some money then ? S.B: Yes... we were very active. I think all the children were active in the various churches. S.R: What else did the church have to offer ? S.B: Well, we had young people�s meetings, and Sunday school, of course, every Sunday. I don't remember attending churches much when I was younger, because it was usually the time that the Sunday school was on. But, I was a member of... attended the United Brethren Church for many, many years. That's where I was, really, brought up. ( 1 1) �S.R: S.B: On the Stevensville Road. S.R: Near the tennis courts ? S.B: Yes. S.R: ( Where would that be ? Could you tell me any changes that have taken 1place in this 1church ? Do you know when it was built, or any of it's history, why it's location is there, or anything ? S.B: No, I can't tell you when the church was built. It's been there for many, many years. I know, my husband, who's Alan Beam, his family donated the land that that church is built on. Now, I can't tell you when it was built. S.R: Were the Beams a prominent family, ? S.B: Yes, they were. Alan's father was one of 14. S.R: To donate land... most people can't get enough land, let alone donating it. So, I thought they must be a prominent family that had quite a bit. S.B: ( And I know that they donated the land that the present Mennonite Church, Reformed Mennonite Church, is built. S.R: Where is that ? S.B: On Ott Road, just west of Stevensville. That is still in operation. It is a red brick building. Alan's father's name was Albert. Alan was born in Black Creek.. S.R: Could you tell me any changes that the church has had ? S.B: No, no I can't. We are now members of the United Church. S.R: This was on the other side of the Memorial Hall ? S.B: Yes, it is. The two churches are practically adjacent to each other. I know our church, the United Church, is celebrating their lOOth anniversary in October. S.R: Have you heard any reasons why the church was built there ? Would that be the centre of the town ? S.B: Yes, I would think so. S.R: Would that be why then, probably ? S.B: Yes, I would say so. But, the United Church was known at the Methodist Church at first. ( S.R: That's the first church that you had mentioned ? S.B: No, the United Church. ( 12) �( S.R: That's the church you are talking about now, that used to be the Methodist Church ? S.B: Yes, and then they amalgamated and it's been United for some years. S.R: Could you tell any changes that have taken place in this church ? S.B: In the United Church ? S.R: In the one you now attend. S.B: Well, it's a joint charge. S.R: What's that mean... between the Methodist and the United ? S.B: No, no, the Methodist is no longer mentioned, or in existence, it's "· United. It's Willoughby, which is down in Willoughby. It's the Willoughby Church which is on Sauer Road, I guess it is, and the other church is the St. Johns, which is on the Sodom Road, and one minister serves the three branches. Their.;services are at 9, 10, and 1 1. We have a new minister now, and his name is Ken Ramsay. He has just been new to our church. He came from up around Toronto. S.R: ( Were there any changes made inside the church, or additions to it ? S.B: No, I wouldn't say that there was, just keeping it up, you know, painting and keeping it in good condition, and carpeting, and this type of thing, but I wouldn't say that there was any changes. S.R: What about prominent church members, somebody that might have done a lot towards the community or has been involved a lot with the church, or even a minister that was really special and really helped the members, or the community ? Are there any really prominent church members ? S.B: Well, they were all... a lot of old church members that went to the United Church. .. Our congregation is getting smaller and smaller because the older people are dying, and the younger ones are moving away. Cliff Winger, who I mentioned before, I mean, he was certainly an old, old member, he and his wife, and the Hendershots, Hubert Hendershot who just passed away here a couple weeks ago, they were both prominent members. Morningstars... there's, you know, a lot... and Bakers. Bakers have long gone. The younger ones of those families, they're moved away. Edgeworths, they were old members of the church, very faithful members. Robinsons, ( 13) �( Mr. Robinson, Pat Robinson had a store in Stevensville. S.R: What store would that be ? S.B: It's the store where Mae's Restaurant is now. S.R: Oh, the one that was in the same building as the bank ? S.B: As the bank, yeah. Pat Robinson, he lived right next door. The building still stands where he lived. It was a general store. There was... he sold dry goods, all kinds of groceries, and meats, and china, wallpaper. That was a very, very big buisness... souvenirs, you name it. It was just a general store. After Pat Robinson sold the place, then... or after he died, the buisness was sold to Wally Moon, Walter Moon. S.R: How did it become Mae's Restaurant ? S.B: Well, someone came and set the building on fire, it was an arsonist. He was upstairs visiting... there was apartments above the building... he was up and had dinner with the family upstairs, and the way going down, he set the palce on fire. It was a terrible, terrible fire. ( S.R: So, he was caught then ? S.B: Yes, he stood right there and watched it burn. He was a fellow in the service from Fort Erie. S.R: Was there any reason given ? S.B: Nope, he needed help. S.R: Oh, it was just mental then ? S.B: Yes. So, anyway, by that time, Mr. Moon had passed away and his wife was taking over the, she was conducting the business. S.R: She was getting up in years ? S.B: Yes, she was. So anyway, they just... it was all fire damaged inside the whole place, and it was just gutted. S.R: Then she sold it to Mae's Restaurant ? S.B: I think it was idle for awhile. Then, different people were... tried to establish business in there. Darryl, who is now there... I think his mother, who was from Fort Erie... that's where it got the Mae's place. She has a good buisness there now. S.R: { What's her last name ? S.B: Oh shoot... ( 14) �( S.R: Before leaving the church part of it, was there anything else that you'd like to mention about the church ? S.B: No, I don't think so. S.R: What affects did the Depression have on the family and the Town ? S.B: I don't remember of ever hearing that word when I was a child, and I was born in '26. As far as I remember, we never had a mortgage on the house. We weren't brought up on T-bone steaks, but there was a money problem, grant you. There was never any money to invest so it ... Depresson never meant anything as far as I was concerned. We ate the same, we had free rights to a gas well on another farm that heated our house. We bought some coal and some wood in between. I had asked Alan who lived on a farm, and I said, " What did the Depression mean to you ? " and he said, "Nothing". S.R: But the farmers had all their own produce and all that stuff which helped. S.B: Yes, they had chickens, they had their own milk, they had beef, they had, you know, they raised turkeys, pigs, and they had their big gardens, so it really didn't mean anything. It wasn't that there ( was money that they had lost through investments, so the Depression never... it wasn't any worry. I mean, we didn't have electricity so we didn't have big electric bills. It was gas, gas lights, and... so, you know, it really didn't interfere with our living at all. S.R: When did you hear about it being the Depression then ? S.B: Well, it was just... you would hear the word... but I mean, it never had any effects with our family, and my husband's family either. It wasn't that we suffered a great loss by any means. S.R: Who was the first political representative that you can remember ? S.B: Oh heavens... I think Fred House was the first one that I can recall... and grant you I never voted for him because I was too young. But then after that I think it was Ernie Gorham who came in, then Roy Morningstar, and I think Bruce Finch followed. I certainly can't remember any Councilmen. S.R: S.B: ( The first M. P. P., or Parliament Member you remember was Houck ? Yes, Bill Houck, William. They were a well-known family in the area. S.R: Are they the ones that lived on Llenroc Farm, on the Boulevard ? ( 15) �S.B: Yes, they lived on the Boulevard. S.R: That's Cornell spelled backwards ? S.B: { Yes, yes, a very kind man. His brother was Chris Houck, and he was a minister for many years, a United Church minister. S.R: Coming back to the community, you mentioned Mae's Restaurant as one, could you go through describing the stores, the proprietors, the changes in where the stores were located, starting at one point and going down the different streets ? Was there a popular hang-out for kids, any kind of dance hall or poolroom ? S.B: Well, where Wale's Plumbing Business is today at the stoplight... that was before my time ... when my father was young... they used to have plays and things upstairs above that. The downstairs where the plumbing business is connected from, was an implement dealer. It was Lichtenberger's. In my days it was know as Lichtenberger's. I know that that was a real place that the youths enjoyed themselves, oh, they would practice. They would put on... I don't know if it would have been monthly or three times a year, or whatever, and they had them on Stevensville Road too . It was above what was ( known as Spear's Garage. Now it is. . . it's a stone building, and it's known as... oh, they sell tropical fish and earthworms, and what have you. In the back of that building you'll still see red bricks in a small room back there, and that was the first school in Stevensville. Part of that, you can still see it. That's where Cline's Ornamental Iron is. That's what... S.R: Would you know when that was constructed ? S.B: No, but if you talk to Earl Beam, I'm sure that he can tell you that, because his brother... there was this place where the earthworms are sold, and then there is Rupheen Lichtenberger's home, and he has a small shop where he sells fridges, and washing machines, then there is another brick building ... or not brick but a cement building, and that was the feedmill. That was Clifford Beam's Feedmill . A t one time that was, the back of that, was the United Brethren Church. S.R: Is that the one that's on the right hand or left hand side of. .. ? S.B: You're going towards Niagara Falls, and it's on the right hand side. ( 16) �( S.R: No... of the Memorial Hall... you said that was the first United Brethren Church. Which side of the Hall would it be on? S.B: On the left hand side. S.R: Okay, that was the first one then, before... ? S.B: Yes, and there's a cemetery back there. Then... everyone called him Daddy Beam, and he was a brother of Earl Beam, and he had the mill there for many years until he died. S.R: What was Daddy's first name? S.B: Clifford, yes. He raised quite a few children there, I think there was five or six. There's still the cemetery and it is being kept up by the Town of Fort Erie. S.R: Are they allowed to move things like that? S.B: I don't know, I don't see any need to move them. S.R: I was thinking that it was on somebody's property, is it? S.B: I think that belongs to the Town. I think that that land... I know that that was close to my old home and there is two graves, if not more, that is like an unknown soldier in there. Because I know my great grandmother used to come over and put flowers on these ( graves. So, I think it's cared for by the Town of Fort Erie, and they wouldn't be caring for it... S.R: Right, if it was someone elses property. S.B: I mean, Daddy Beam owned his lot there, but I think that just belonged to the Town, but that's where the United Brethren Church was first, as far as I know. S.R: Continuing on on your tour... S.B: Yes, anyway, that's as far as kids used to... the hangout for the kids was always on the hotel veranda. S.R: Why there? S.B: I don't know. It was just the centre of town and kids would be down there and hang out there and it wasn't closed-in like it is today. The hotel had an open veranda there, all around, you know, like halfway around it with a railing. They used to sell ice cream and things, in one little room. S.R: ( So the kids were allowed to enter part of it? S.B: Yes, yes. It was nothing to do with the beverage rooms, it was (17) �just that they went and got their ice cream and, you know, chocolate ( bars, and whatever. S.R: Who owned the hotel then? S.B: At the time I remember, Ted Hawkins, and then his son took over. His son was in Fort Erie, now. S.R: Is that Ed Hawkins? S.B: Yeah. S.R: I heard something about a bird, was that in your time? S.B: Oh yes, a parrot, someone stole it. S.R: It was never recovered or found? S.B: I don't know, I saw Edward, oh, three or four years ago, and I didn't think to ask him if that bird was ever brought back. But those things, a parrot will live to be a good many years old. S.R: How many is a good many, 10, 20? S.B: Oh heavens, 50. S.R: Did it learn anything bad, being in the hotel? S.B: Oh yes, it had a lot of choice words, yes. But someone came and stole it off the veranda. It was always out in the summertime and ( in the winter it was in the beverage room. S.R: You would think that somebody would have heard it? S.B: No, it was quite willing to have some attention I guess. It's not noisy in the hotel I would say. S.R: Well, you said that it was a hangout and stuff, unless it was that late at night. S.B: I don't know, you know, kids go home for supper and there's not too many around at suppertime, and people coming out ••• they used to get a lot of traffic from the races because the Queen Elizabeth wasn't going, operating, at that time, and there used to be a great deal of traffic in Stevensville. People would come from the races and they'd ••. of course, I don't think they got drinks down there then. I don't think there was any lounge then. People would stop in at the local establishments and have a drink or two and the kids would be home for supper. S.R: ( Could you continue on with your tour? S.B: Well, we had several butchershops in Stevensville, and we had the (18) �second store in Stevensville, like the second general store, like ( Moon's, and then the one that still exists. It's called Frank's now. That is on West Main Street. It's not as general as it was in the days when they used to sell yardgoods and everything, but you can get a great variety of things in there. S.R: Is that the old Hendershots store? S.B: Yes it is. It was Hendershots and it went to the Lake family, then it was back to Hendershots again. No, I think it was, was it... Detenbecks I think in the first place, yes. I think it was Detenbecks in the first place instead of Hendershots, because Detenbecks were relatives of the Hendershots • I think it was Detenbecks first, and then Lakes, and then Hendershots, they got it, Crosby and Irene, before Franks came in. Now it has been sold again. There's... I believe that the couple that have the store are Korean. They're very nice, very obliging. S.R: Is the store a very popular store or do people travel to Ridgeway or Fort Erie more? ( S.B: Well, it's a handy store, and there's a lot of things that you'll get cheaper in that little store than you would if you went to one of the newer stores, like spices and things like that. There is no comparrison, and they have a pretty general... things that they keep in the store, like vinegar and stuff like that. I grant you, the big chain stores, they will put a price on them, like a sale price on vinegar at the time when you're pickling, and stuff like that, and I wouldn't say that they would be competitive to that. But the regular price I feel is very good, and they keep a lot... like milk, and all dairy products, and frozen food. They're very obliging to get anything that, any brands that you particularly want, they are very obliging to get them for you. S.R: That helps. S.B: Yes it does, but it's a convenience store. S.R: Well, if you're going to travel someplace else you're going to spend it on gas so you may as well spend an extra nickel on your product. S.B: ( Now grant you, you don't have any meat. There's frozen... like Schneiders baccon, that they'll keep frozen, and steakettes and (19) �things of this nature, but there's not a variety of meat. It's as I ( said, a convenience store. Anyway, we had... I remember the post office on Stevensville Road, and there was a furniture store there as well. Mr. Climenhage, who was also the funeral director, he was the postmaster and he had furniture, really good, good quality furniture. Then, they tore it... it was just a very, very small building, and they tore that down and then moved over. . . they built another one in front Baughn's home. That was a much larger store, and that was a... they built this post office in front of the store. At one time that was a grocery store as well and Mr. and Mrs. Baughn operated the store. I don't know how many years the post office was in this building, but it's the corner of West Main and Airline, and it's an apartment building now. Then from there the government went and built the existing post office, so it moved from there. S.R: Was postal always government ? S.B: As far as I know, I mean, who else would operate it, who else would pay for the expense ? ( S.R: Through postage, and stuff like that, it used to be handled through the trains. First it was the wire services... S.B: The postmaster had to be paid, you know, and whoever, like the clerk or whoever would work for him. So, I would say that it was always government funded. We had two... Michigan Central and Canadian National railways, and we had passenger service. It was more than ample. Freight used to come in on the Michigan Central, and you would get an order of something that was a bulky parcel and it would come in, up to the station, and they would call you and tell you that it was in. S.R: Is that what put Stevensville on the map, do you think ? S.B: I would say so. It was good rail service. We had butcher shops, we had ice cream parlors, we had, Brodie's Drugstore was in Stevensville. S.R: That's in Ridgeway now, isn't it ? S.B: Yes, there was two brothers that ran the store, Bob and Mel, and they had the drugstore there for a number of years. I know, when I was a small child, it was still in operation. Then the business just... ( people went out of town and it just didn't allow them to keep going. (20) �I S.R: How do you think Stevensville is doing as a town, is it going down, going up, staying the same? S.B: No, it's growing. S.R: It's growing? S.B: Yes. Yes, it's growng, I mean, the younger people are coming. I know, we've been married for 39 years and we are very, very happy to have lived here all of our life, and we don't care to move to a city. It's a good place to raise children. You have your public school education here, and your high shcool, we're centrally located with the colleges and universities, Brock, you know, that I feel it has ample to offer to a family, a growing family. S.R: I was just wondering, because with the churches you had said that the older people are dying and the younger people are leaving. S.B: But they're not going to church. The younger people are just not church inclined. They just... I can look all around on this street, and it's just a small street, and there's only a handful of people that even go to church. You know, it's sad but true, but it's... I know, ( our daughter was born in Stevensville and she, when they were first married they lived in Ridgeway for about three years, and haYe bought a house in Stevensville, and is certainly Stevensville oriented. I don't ever want to move from here. Her husband's the plumber for the C.N., and they have three boys, and the boys are very active with Cubs and Beavers and everything. Now, grant you it has it's disadvantages. They're taking swimming less<i:ms, and have for many years, and it's going to Port Colborne which is time consuming. But, anyway, there's service clubs, there's not Lions in Stevensville, but there's a lot of people that belong to the Lions' Club in Ridgeway. There's the Kinsmen who certainly have done their fair share, the Kinettes, the Hall Auxiliary. They have come a long ways, I'll tell you. The have the Hall Board (the Stevensville Memorial Hall), which operates the running of the hall, and they're very active, they meet once a month. We certainly have a Memorial Hall to be proud of. The old hall burned down and we're very proud of the new one. The Kinsmen have just put a building up on Ott Road, ( a Kinsmen building that they have executive meetings in, and then (2 1) �part of it is for the ball games that are held up in Stevensville. They have a committee that serves hotdogs and pop and what have you. It's very active, but we've had a lot of business. We've got Bertie Printer, and they have added a great extension on their building. That was Win Baughn who was the postmaster for many years, Winfield Baughn. His son Bills has taken over the business since his father retired, and Bill is operating the bus; ness. It's very successful. Then we have Morningstar's Feedmill, which is a large operation. Oh, we had blacksmith shops, and things like that, meat markets, ice cream parlors. S.R: How would it compare... you had read an insert from a book from about the 1850's because the book was written in l880's or '70s and it told about the 30 years prior to the book being wrote. How would it compare from then to now? When you were younger, have many things pulled out of Stevensville? S.B: S.R: ( They were burned out. A lot of things were burned out. That was in the 1800's, right? S.B: Yes. S.R: Well, even the planing mill, and Morningstar's have had a couple fires. S.B: That's right, and it was sad, you know. People of Stevensville are very, very resentful that our planing mill has gone. They really and truly are. S.R: What, the family just didn't feel like reopening it? S.B: They couldn't afford to. S.R: On, it wasn't insured good enough? S.B: No, they... I don't know. I don't know the technicality of that one bit, but the one owner was considering retiring and the other just felt that it wasn't worth it. They had three fires. S.R: S.B: Over about three years. It was nothing but a crying shame. S.R: Were any of them arson? S.B: They all were, yes. S.R: { In what time span would that be? Were they suspicious at all on the owners? S.B: Yes. (22) �( S.R: Then not having rebuilt... S.B: Nothing ever was done, nothing ever was done. It never came to... it was always, the court case was always remanded, remanded, remanded, and it was disheartening. S.R: Mr. House, the father, should have been around still. S.B: No, I'm glad he wasn't, I'm glad Wilfred never lived to see that. S.R: It wouldn't have happened then, probably. S.B: I'm sure they didn't have a grudge against the owners, I'm sure. I'm sure they didn't, because, you stood down there and listened to people's comments and they said I have never, ever been treated kinder by those men, why did this happen? It was just too bad, because we could go, if you wanted some putty, a piece of putty fell out of your window, you could go down and get it, and you didn't have to get in the car and drive six or seven miles to Ridgeway and back again. If you wanted a handful of nails, if you needed two nails, you'd go down and say, I want a handful of nails and you bought them. ( S.R: And you didn't have to wait until your shopping week? S.B: No, it was... they treated you more than kind, and it was an old, old established business. But, now we've got the factories in town and, you know, Canada Colour, you know, all the factories down Eagle Street there, that employ a lot of people. S.R: Is Stevensville self supporting or do a lot of people have to go out of town to find work? S.B: I would say that a lot of people go out of town for employment. Atlas Steel was, a lot of people worked at Atlas, and they work at Fleet, and Horton of course, there was quite a few people that used to work at Horton. Then Inco, there were many that worked at Inco in Port Colborne. S.R: So it's always been this way, not just now? S.B: No, no, my husband worked for 36 years at Niagara Falls, New York. S.R: So then Stevensville has basically been a trade place, family owned and operated businesses, and different things like that, so people have always had to go out of town for work? ( S.B: Until these factories came in we had Cline's Ornamental Iron, and we had Wales Plumbing, which we still have. We still have both (23) �of the businesses. But we have the insurance place at the corner. { That, I don't know how many people they employ, probably six, seven, eight, and that is certainly active. Then we've got three garages, the one right in Stevensville, we've got Stevensville Esso out over the track, and then we've got, I think it's a Sunoco. So, there's three service stations and we've got the restaurant. Now, the barbershops are gone, there used to be two barbershops in town and that had the big poolroom. That was a big hangout for the boys. S.R: Who operated those? S.B: The last barbershop to close was owned and operated by Art Otterman, and then he sold it to... or his wife I guess, after Art died, he sold it to Ted Bushel. Ted has passed away so it's vacant, but there's a business I understand going up in that place. There's a gentleman in the same building and he is a piano tuner. I don't think he employs anyone. There was people that put siding on houses. Back where the schools used to be, the public schools, they had an aluminum siding buisness. Now, that has gone by the wayside. They used to employ several people. We have two body shops in Stevensville. ( One is Oren, and one is Normy Page, and they both own and operate the body shops. What else, of course, the hotels. We had a hardware store that was owned and operated by Roy Morningstar for many years. Oh, he sold eaves troughs and things of that nature. Then, he decided to move to Ridgeway on the main street in Ridgeway and Jerry Coulis got it. He did... continued and bought quite a supply of saucepans, and roasting pans and things, like carriage bolts and things, besides doing eaves trough work, nails and hammers, and all kinds of utensils. Then he decided that there wasn't enough business so he sold out. Then the Wade building came next, the telephone, besides the tailorshop, the telephone office was there. First it was in the front room of Alvin and Ethel Siders, a house next to the C.N. track, but the telephone office was in our house for many, many years. S.R: S.B: ( The Wade family owned it? No, no, it was just that they rented this room. Anyway, my mother worked at the telephone office for a month less than 20 years, as (24) �a telephone operator, and we lived upstairs, then my great aunt ( lived downstairs. This was just in one room. Someone had to operate the switchboard all night long. After my grandfather died, they took over that room where the tailorshop was. It was not... it was connected to our house but it wasn't as interfering to our home. It stayed there until Bell Telephone came into existence. S.R: Do you know when that would be ? S.B: No, I can't tell you. I'm sure the library would have when the Bell Telephone came in , the dial came in , because it was Welland County in those days. We always... in the back of our home , one of the first doctors had his office in the back of our home too. It was a great big old sprawly house. I don't know how many rooms, probably 16 rooms in it. Anyway, Dr. Culver... I can't tell you his first name. He was an awful drinker and he drank himself to death. So anyway, he operated in our home for a long while. For many years before his death in 1904 his office was behind the tailorshop. The existing fire hall was built in 1952. Before then the first motorized firetruck was housed in where the library stands today. That's where they ( have the children's stories and this type of thing. That's where... it was like a separate door that would go into there, that's where the first motorized firetruck was held. S.R: That's the one that Heximer helped to build ? S.B: Yes it is. We had a cidermill that was very, very productive. It was operated by Charlie Wale. He was a very kind, old gentlemen, and the kids used to do all kinds of pranks on Halloween, but they never did anything back there to the cidermill. He'd always leave a great big barrel of cider with a cup hanging on top, and you'd go back there when you'd be hot and sweaty from tramping the streets. M r . Wale ... he would press grapes and apples as well. Coming home from school you were always welcome. That barrel was always full and every child just loved him . Then after he . . . well, I guess he kept with it until he died. Grant you it was a seasonal thing. It wasn't in operation all the time, but you could hear that old chug, chug, chug. The first cidermill was burned, then Charlie Wale went ( and operated the second one, built the mill for a fresh cup of good (25) �cider, using a granite cup that hung from a nail. If you did that ( today, every kid would be stopping, wouldn't they? Then Mr. House, the owner of the planing mill, Wilford House, he gave considerable property to the Town of Fort Erie, which is operated by the Town of Fort Erie, and his only stipulation was that it would be called the United Empire Loyalists' Park, because. that's what his people were. There's nice signs , and the Kinsmen's have erected a little pavillion, and there's a place where you can go up and have hotdogs, and they've got swings and slides, and things for the children. It's adjacent to the creek. Then, the Horticulture Society have planted a lot of trees on this property and it's maintained by the Town of Fort Erie. Then, you go up to Ott Road, after the Memorial Hall, the new one was built, then they've got the ball diamonds up on Ott Road. That was also land that Wilfred House had donated, but that's on the opposite side of the creek. It's certainly very well used. Where the Memorial Hall is today, there used to be a bandstand at the same time where the tennis courts were. Local people used to use that and we had quite an active band. It was a wooden bandstand ( where many concerts were performed. S.R: Was it mostly locals? S.B: I would say so, yes, I would say so. I can well remember that pavillion. S.R: Were dances held there or anything like that? S.B: No, it was just ... dances used to be held where Wales Plumbing is, in the upstairs, and then it was condemned. It wasn't safe for people , the amount of people that wou:ld be up there. I can remember as a child, when the continuation was still being used. There was. .. oh, the different area churches, they'd have programs and plays. Oh, that was always a highlight for us kids, you know, some was kind of a mystery, like a novel.. . it was realy an interesting time to go, and they would just perform one night and the place would be packed. The Kinsmen used to have them down at the school. They used to have Halloween parties to try to keep the children off the streets , and judges. There were nice prizes for the children, like best costume, scarriest, and what have you, and then they would ( give them a real nice lunch. That would be... but it kept the children (26) �off of the street, just in the time when there are strange people ( in the world not being too kind to children. The Kinsmen over the years... and I know that they have just paved the driveway over at the Memorial Hall, and that was $27,000. S.R: Just to pave the parking lot? S.B: No, not the parking lot, that's just the driveway. S.R: Oh, that circle out in front? S.B: Yes. And the Horticulture Society are very active in .. . it's not just Ridgeway, but it's Ridgeway, Crystal Beach and Stevensville, and they have done the planting at the hall, and the Town of Fort Erie has done the sod, so it's starting to shape up. It's a community effort. S.R: In closing, could you please tell me what you can remember on the Bertie Fair? S.B: Yes, all the school children in the area, they participated with their writing, and arithmetic questions, and in those days they knew how to write, not like today, they knew how to spell. It was all on the walls. The walls... oh there would be huge walls, and they'd all be covered and marked. There would be ribbons for it, not prize money ( but ribbons where you had won. There was all kinds of crafts. It was a fairly large size. It was in the basement of the Racetrack. You would go down steps, ramps, and... oh, there would be cars displayed and things like that. A lot of displays from all the different dealers from both Stevensville and Fort Erie. I guess the last few years it was, kind of lack of participation, and people were losing interest. The Welland Fair was starting to really build up and the children all got, in the whole area, got free passes to go, and they were urged to go over to the Welland Fair for half a day. I think that kind of drew some of the crowd over there. Then, with Polio, that was a terrible time. It was an epidemic . I think people were frightened to have their children among other children. S.R: What did they do for school? S.B: Well, they would go to school, but this . .. I don't know whether it was in the summertime, in August. No, maybe not, maybe not until September. See, it would be involving Stevensville school children ( with Fort Erie and Ridgeway and Crystal Beach, you know, that (27) �it was a lot of children, and of course you can't control children. { They're drinking out of the taps, and they're eating food that is covered with flies, and things of this nature. I think that it just got to be too frightening for the parents to take their children to this. Then, with the funding situation, and the Welland Fair getting bigger each year, they had more to offer. S.R: It just kind of slowly closed out? S.B: I think it just kind of slowly closed. S.R: Is there anything you'd like to mention in closing? S.B: Yes, I'm the third generation that was born in Stevensville of the Wade fa mily, and my daughter still lives here, and her husband and three sons, and they are certainly Stevensville oriented, my husband and I, and we don't want to leave. We feel it's a nice little co m munity and we're happy too. S.R: Very fa mily oriented? S.B: Very fa mily, yep, you could go to any of the neighbours, and I wouldn't lack for any help with any of it. Yet, I'm not willing to be living at the neighbours for a cup of coffee three times a day, and gossiping, ( but I know if I went to their house and said, " Could I have a slice of bread, an egg? ", they would certainly give it to me, and I in turn would do it for the m. It's terrific for raising children. Happy to be a citizen. S.R: Thank you for the interview Mrs. Beam. S.B: You're more than welco me. ( (28) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Shelley Richer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Shirley Beam Location The location of the interview. Mrs. Beam's home at 2521 Central Avenue, Stevensville Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Beam, Shirley Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of Shirley Beam's interview. She discusses topics such as: Stevensville history Life in Stevensville before technological advances, plumbing, etc Schools Standards for discipline Stevensville United Brethren Church Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 25, 1985 1980s 1985 Oral history shelley richer shirley beam stevensville stevensville united brethren in christ church transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/bec468913cb62c56d25dfbf7ea0ad47b.pdf 0ef7f8af36830d837c9ca3ef0bf6f20a PDF Text Text Beverly Branton interviewing Mr . Oliver Benner in his home at 1273 Sunset Drive. The date is June 24-, 1985. B.B.: Hello Mr. Benner. O.B.: Hello. B.B.: Could you give me your date of birth please? O.B.: September 29, 1918. B.B.: And your place of birth? O.B.: Just east of Number 4- School. B.B.: Where is that located? O.B.: Down the Number 3 Highway, Garrison Road, Fort Erie. B.B.: And your occupation before you retired? O.B.: Steelworker, layout and. . . it'll come to me. B.B.: So you were born in the Fort Erie area? O.B.: Yes I lived here from about thir teen months old, I came up here. B.B.: Right in this particular home on Sunset? O.B.: ·' My grandfathers place originally. One hundred and two years ago he bought it. B.B.: O.B.: .� And what brought him to Ridge and Bertie? His parents from Germany. So it goes back quite a few generations. O.B.: ·' B.B.: B.B.: ' Well he lived up on the corner of Ridge and Bertie. O.B.: f ' How did he happen to come to this area? Oh yes, about four generations. Now the maps of 1876, there's three of my great grandparents on the map .. land owners. B.B.: Do you know why they came to this area? O.B.: Well I guess its for freedom and to get away from some of the conditions they had over there. Well they left the area, most of them .. well there's some .. one went to Chippawa, one went to or two to Fort Erie, a couple to Rochester and then two of the girls married and went to Chicago. Well one of them got in the newspaper business. He was a school teacher from Ridgeway .. got into the newspaper business, and they went from Naperville to Chicago and he became the manager of the Chicago Tribune paper and his son Howard did afterwards become manager. Now he's retired and his son left the Tribune, Robert, and he's now in Long Beach California and he's publisher-director of the fourth largest magazine in the United { States, 18 million copies, Modern Maturity Magazine. So that was l �my mothers side. My father's side was the Benners which my great, great, great grandfather came over with the United Empire Loyalists ( and he use to live just a couple hundred feet south of here from Number 3 Highway up to the hill. on the property. And some of the family is still And he and his wife and some of the children are buried up in Dr. Rutherfords front yard in Ridgeway on the Nigh Road which we found out several years ago. a big group. But the Benners is There are a few groups of Benners, one family branch that doesn't belong to ours, no relation but a lot of the others are. We have a big book on that, trying to complete more of it and I've been working on it, like yesterday even made a stop to do some calling so it's interesting that way too. B.B.: Now you were born by the Number 4 School. O.B.: Ya, down by where Fred Sanders lives now. He's treasurer of Horton Steele, C. B. I. That's the house, my sister and I and mycousins daughter were all born. We lived there for a couple of years and then my dad bought this from my grandmother. My grandfather died early when he was in his early thirties so we come up here. B.B.: ( Number 4 School .. was that located where the Garrison Road School is? O.B.: That's the one. My grandmother use to be janitor of that. old stone section in front, years ago. Of the That's all that was there. And then when they built the red brick section on the back in about 1923 my sister went there, first year it was opened,. my older sister. B.B.: So what do you remember of the school? O.B.: Well I remember we had two teachers. B.B.: Do you remember their names? O.B.: Oh yes. There was Miss Hibbard I had and Roy Taylor was in the other classroom, senior class. they went to Toronto. And they became married and afterwards So I had Mr. Hilborne Pickett the last year for my teacher when I was in grade 8. from Fort Erie. He had married a Nigh girl But Taylors went to Toronto.. Roys dead now, he was in the 1st World War but she's still living in Toronto. her not too long ago. I seen She was from Ridgeway, her father was Mr. Hibbard, the real estate man that they named the street after them ( up there. So .. oh, ya they were very good teachers. followed but that was all I had. And the teachers I was there seven years for public school and then I went to high school for five years in Fort Erie. 2 �B.B.: You went in town to the Fort Erie High School. O.B.: Oh, ya, five years. B.B.: Has that changed much? O.B.: Oh yes. Original building was. . let's see, three rooms was in the back and there were about 18 original building. ••. there was only about 21 rooms in the I think my grandmother's cousin built that school. B.B.: How many storieswere there. O.B.: Three, three, the same that they have now. But now they've went out south a bit and they went out west, that's all added, changed around. B.B.: How many years was the high school O.B.: I think they started it in was it '28? .•. .• a couple of years ago. ? They had it's 50th anniversary '29, I forget exactly. it .. it was a little over 50 years ago. I have a booklet on And the same with 100, I think they celebrated a l 00 years down here at Garrison Road a couple of years ago too. B.B.: If you went down to Fort Erie to high school, how did you get there? O.B.: Well, I, my cousin lived nexted door or my cousins husband and he worked in the machine shop, foreman of the machine shop, superintendent so I went with him a couple of years. And then I rode a bicycle other times but I didn't drive like they do today. sometimes. I even walked But sometimes I went down at seven o'clock in the morning to school . B.B.: Were there many other people going from this area down to Fort Erie to school? O.B.: The Spear boys on the other road, on Pettit Road, I use, their father worked there too and we use to go together. Roy was my age and Alfred was two years older and there was a few other neighbours that went to Fort Erie too. area at that time. But there weren't too many from this I think I counted up the other day, I can remember from Concession Road to the Ridge Road, there were only about 40 homes in that whoie stretch. And most were all farm homes, not many other. B.B.: So most of this area was O.B.: Farmland. B.B.: Would you consider that going into the Cresent Park area .. was that ? •.• farmland? 3 �O.B.: Oh, yes, definetly! B.B.: Tell me about Cresent Park, how that use to look and how it developed? O.B.: Well there was two farms or four farms down in Cresent Park from Cresent to Buffalo .. there was four farms. D. L. Hershey had from Buffalo Road down to Ferndale, just about to Ferndale down there, down to the church .. that's where the church, Garrison Road Church, United Brethren Church, got their property from •. Mr. Hershey's father and it went down to Phillip road if I'm not mistaken. And the old Wale farm, they call Wales bay out in the end .. out at that end of Buffalo Road, that was from Buffalo Road east. And Chester Fretz owned from Cresent Road west, that's where Ryans Restaurant is presently now, that was the old farm house with additions to it and. . . B.B.: And that was Mr. Fretz's? Tell m e about that. . i t use t o b e his farm home? O.B.: That was his farm home .. that was his farm, ya. one of, In fact some of, my uncle bought his barn when he tore it down and some of the sheeting on this back portion of this house is from that barn. ( And I remember when he had a sale and when D. L. Hershey had a sale, at his, I think it was his nephew, Wes Hershey up at who lived at Cresent Park, and he use to have a lot of water systems for the American people, his own water system before they put the town in. And D. L. Hershey's sons are both dead now. One worked for the Customs and the other for the Fort Erie Dairy. both passed away now. But they're The one wife I think, she use to teach at Number 2 School, Wilfred HErshey's wife, Hazel, lived on Emerick Avenue. B.B.: There both gone now but there children are still living. So there was the Hershey farm, the Wale farm and Fretz farm and . . . O.B.: The other farm I don't know but way back i n the old, a hundred and some years ago, Mr. Bitner, Chris Bitner owned it and he's a distant relative of my grandmothers cousin, had this great nephew who lives across the road from me, right now, presently. B.B.: O.B.: ( Do you remember who started selling off the land first? Ward Winger bought it I think, Ward Winger from Ridgeway and sub .. put it in all the subdivisions and they put roadways through, 4 �planted trees, put a lot of the sidewalks in. ( And then I think Frank Benner who owned east of Cresent Road, he started selling a few lots and somebody else bought lots and they're building all on the east side of Cresent Road now. But that use to be my great grandfather's place, Benners, Jacob Benner from Cresent down past the school..acres. Then after he passed away my grandfather got the fifty acres across from the school and the other went to Philip Benner, his other son. Then his son Hedley got it and after Hedley he sold it to Franklin Benner which is no relation of ours. B.B.: So, Mr Winger when he when you say he bought property to subsidize •• it, did he buy all four farms? O.B.: No, I don't, I don't think so. . well although he made of, I don't know for sure. But he had the big house just south of the high school in Ridgeway. That was his home, that huge home up there. So I don't know, I was just going to public school and I remember when he built it. And the, Mr. Stein's Brewery from Buffalo built that big home down here between Ferndale and Buffalo Road, that big house with the big fence out in front, stone gates and that ( Brewery built that. •• Stein's And they had a gardener and things like that. B.B.: Do you remember when he moved in .. that house went up? O.B.: It was in the late '20's I would think. And then that house on the corner of Ferndale, they were built around the late twenties and the early thirties. I was still going to public school. I remember that. B�B.: So before Mr. Winger started putting in the roadways, that was just all farmland? O.B.: That was farm, 2 farmlands. B.B.: So there was no way of getting across it in a car? O.B.: No, Ferndale, or Cresent and Buffalo Road were the only two roads. And I remember when they paved Buffalo, or Cresent Road and that was the first road in the Township that was paved. narrow dirt road. It was a And of course I have this old, this little booklet .. did you see it on Cresent Park that was written by the Americans and .• L.'l..tCl'l when they delivered it to me, Mrs.� who had wrote it, she said, 'are you who I think that you are' and I said, 'I think you are right.' Because my father use to work for all those people along the lake out there. And •.. 5 �B.B.: What would he do? O.B.: Well he landscaped, did landscaping all through the park, landscaping lawns. And he use to clean the beaches for them. Use to clean all the debri, limbs and boards that washed in and all the seaweed. He use to plow the beaches to plow all the seaweed under. Put water pipes out for them and bring them in in the fall. B .B.: Would this be by horse? O.B.: By horses, right. I use to help him out there after I finished high school, a little bit now and then until I started Horton Steele. That was back in the l 940's. B.B.: How would he get down on to the beach? O.B.: Drive down. B.B.: What roadways were there? O.B.: Well Cresent or Buffalo Road. Down the roadway. Of course there wasn't near as many houses up the we; tern end of the section as there are now either, a lot of room he had a lot of room. •. Oh, and then in the month of June he'd go out there around Wale's Bay and in the seaweed the old carps would be up around there and they would shoot out ( between you and around you and scoot .. they use to be there. But there's still a lot of those people that I know faintly because they use to call up here all the time for work being done, and come out to see dad. And I want to go out there one of these days and see a lot of the people because I got all the names and all the lots numbers and I know exactly who's, who. Half of them or so I know. So Mr. May, he used to, was a manufacturer of Pierce-Arrow Automobile in Buffalo, he lived east of Cresent Road. down there. He had a big section And it was part way down to Kraft Road, a quarter of the way down. He had a big estate there with several homes and there's other people, Americans down there. But they're very nice people and I use to know Henry May myself. I use to see him walking up the beach .. ! use to talk to him. He had the Pierce-Arrow Company over there. B.B.: Was it basically built up along the lake then as it is now? O.B.: Oh yes .. it started in was it 1908, 1910 possibly they started buying. . according t o that booklet, they started buying property there. And they'd come over by horse and then I think they had hoof 'n mouth disease and they couldn't bring horses over. And then they use to 6 �come across on the little Dummy across the bridge, the International ( Railroad Bridge. And go up that little Peanut train from the ferry landing up to Erie Beach and then walk on up the rest of the way. Then later on they had the train that came down along the lake that would stop at a little shelter out there they had just east of Cresent Park to pick up the people and go to Buffalo to work every day. And the ladies use to, when they came over for the summer, take their children on the train to Ridgeway to get their hair cuts and go and do some shopping. And they have a little booklet that they had out .. I don't remember all of it but I remember going back about of course my dad and my uncles use to work out there all •. the time. And years ago my dad use to make a dollar a day, not an hour, a dollar a day working. in those days. So it wasn't too plentiful, money, But expenses weren't either. B.B.: How has the Garrison Road changed? O.B.: Oh, it's well, what I can remember it was sort of a paved road and then when I was going to public school yet. I would say in the later 20's, '28 in there somewhere, or maybe '27, 26, 27 they repaved •• ( it and made a good two lane highway out of it. And I remember when the shoulders were still soft we came up from school one day, just about where the golf course is there, where that sign is now down there, east, a couple of hundred feet east of our road here, Sunset and one fellow wanted to give us a ride but we were so close to our road we didn't need it, my sister and I and my cousin. My younger sister came up with the teachers, they gave her a ride up. And we were there and it was Mr. Br isbaine, a president of the Maple Leaf Milling Co. came along and went to slow down a lii:title bit and he skidded on the tary road and hit three of us. I was under the car but fortunately wasn't hurt or anything except I got my clothes torn a bit, raincoat, and had a lot of gravel in my knees and my cousin was knocked across the road but we survived it all right. My sister stayed off the rest of the week and I did too I guess but my cousin went back to work the next, back to school the next day. So that was it and in 196 .. was it 67, Centennial Year I think, they started making the four lane highway out of it. ( From Fort Erie up to Concession, up to Gorham Road I guess at that time, they did that, or somewhere up in there they made a 4-lane out 7 �B.B.: What about the Dominion Road? O.B.: Well I remember when they put that through .. that was early, maybe in the 20's, when they put that through. B.B.: And where did it go to? O.B.: Up to Ridgeway. B.B.: But where did it stop .. if they have to put it through? O.B.: Well it may have been a little roadway, they must have had a small roadway there, because see the Krafts use to live there too on the corner of Dominion Road and Cresent, that south west corner, is one of the Kraft homes. B.B.: Did you ever me 'the' Mr. Kraft? O.B.: J. L. Kraft? B.B.: Tell me about him. O.B.: See they lived on Kraft Road, that's just south of the railroad tracks. Oh, I knew him personally. The home is still there. And then they built this other one up there and it was a large family. order, or religion. They were of the Mennonite religous And my mother and father went to school with his younger brothers and sisters. ( And I went to public school with the nephew and nieces.. and high school. But he went to Chicago. I guess he failed a couple of times and went bankrupt a couple of times but he managed to pull out and get on top of the world. Now when you see that big pavilion down at Disneyland, last year ago, the spot and this ad down there. . . He use to come down this way and to meet his relatives. His cousin lived next door and he use to drop in to see her sometimes. But he was a great fellow. I've got his autograph her someplace, when he was done this way. B.B.: Are any of his relatives still living in this area? O.B.: Oh yes. Let me see .. the Beach's went to, I think their in Ottawa, one of them is a professor in McGill University, Earl Beach. Marvin went to high shool with him and I met them, all of them at the reunion at the high school a couple of years ago. out here, Mrs. Norm Learn was a Kraft. And the Learns are still Art Rose married a Kraft and their children, and I'm not sure if their children are alive yet or not. ( They could be .. one married the Glenny boy, Margaret married a Glenny boy. His father use to be the head of the Gas, Provincial Gas in Fort Erie. And the others moved to Buffalo or Chicago too. But they were the .. Mrs. Learn, and Mrs. Beach and Mrs. Rose were 8 �the three girls that stayed around here. But they were great people. Then my uncle use to see some of them when they came over from Buffalo sometimes. too. Of course, he's been gone for quite a long time But we use to see one another. Lot of cheese spread .. very good. B.B.: So back to the Dominion then the Dominion went as far as O.B.: Ridgeway, at the present time. B.B.: And it started .. ? O.B.: By the Old Fort. B.B.: You could ride right through. O.B.: Oh yes after they put it through. B.B.: Before they put it through, where did it stop? O.B.: Well I don't know. .• •. ? It's been up that way for years, that little road. I don't know how many years ago, long time ago .. it's been a small road maybe like a stone road going up that way. it because it took a lot of traffic out that way. Then they paved And the Erie Beach out there, that diss©lved when was it .. oh I was still going to public school, in the early 30's possibly around in that area. Then Erie Beach closed and they took a few of the rides up to Crystal Beach. And in fact some of the old subflooring out here in this other section is from the roller rink of Erie Beach. And two of the neighbours here, up this second house up here, they have some of the flooring. . another one the house i s gone down here, i t burnt. But, i n fact, DearNevinger had bought the roller rink and he sold this wood and we have the subflooring from the old roller rink. B.B.: Do you remember going to Erie Beach as a child? O.B.: Oh, yes. B.B.: Tell me what you recall. O.B.: Well there was .. the Park itself was a beautiful park; the rides were We use to go out there quite often. good; their was a big casino or dance hall there along the water; they had a zoo with a lot of animals, birds, peacocks .. all kinds of animals. I don't know where they brought them.. they must have brought themfrom the Buffalo Zoo over, I would imagine, know. I remember going up in the little Peanut train one time, from Fort Erie up to Erie Beach, up there and back. ( I don't It was a small thing, open air, just a couple of windows on it I think .. unless there was a few but a lot of it was open. A small guage railroad went 9 �( up along the waterfront. B.B.: What were some of the rides you use to take? O.B.: Well there was the, oh they had the catipillar and the Hay-Day, and the big Wildcat, I think was there big roller coaster they called it the •• Wildcat. They use to have a big slide, on the north end, two great big bumps in it you know they sat on a bag, it looked like a bag, •• a bag or something to fly down, because you'd get moving you •• could hurt yourself if you hit that surface going down. But it wasn't a large park, it was a beautiful little park, well kept up and wonderful •. time out there. But I haven't been out there for years. I should go out there sometime again to see if there's any recollections of anything. Bu the old building is sort of demolished and I don think •. but they had a walk you know, fence along the waterfront and sidewalks. The sidewalk went from Helena Street, down I think, down to the Park. It could have come in from the other way too from the Bardol Road. B.B.: ( Were you ever out to the airstrip in Erie Beach? Do you remember an airstrip? O.B.: Airstrip, no I don't. Was there one there? I should ask my brother. He knows all about airplanes. He's an aeronautical engineer. And I was just reading the other day about, first was it parachute jumps •• or something around here in this area, Niagara Peninsula. B.B.: So you've seen the Cresent Park area go through a lot of changes? O.B.: Oh, boy! Of course, then they built the new pump house out here, several years ago you know. But they, Bertie built it before they went into the Greater, before Regional! came in. And then they enlarged it so. But there use to be tb.:� two pump houses in Fort Erm one on this side of the Old Fort, the other at the end of Lewis Street. They had those two pump houses. B.B.: Why do you think Cresent Park built up so O.B.: Well there's a nice beach out there. •.. ? And they subparted it and people started coming and then of course in latter years people started pushing it and buying up lots and building homes and people coming to buy them. And then of course they got water through and sewers ( through now and all the conveniences and so. Except someplaces haven't got sidewalks but they most all had some kind of ashphalt 10 �roads and stone roads. Some of them had a lot of people and expanding, •• that's same as Fort Erie is expanding. I remember when they paved •• Jarvis Street, way back in about 1927, 28, somewhere in there. They had Jarvis Street all tore up with the sewer lines. I use to go to Fort Erie every week to take piano lessons and most of the time mother use to drive horse and buggy and in winter time we'd take the cutter. Dad wasn't always around to drive the car. And we'd go to Fort Erie that way. B.B.: Would you go in shopping or ? O.B.: Oh, ya shopping, sure. B.B.: What route would you take to get there? O.B.: Oh, down the Bertie Road maybe or maybe •• That was from '27 to about '30. • •. and the Bertie Road wasn't all stone down here from Sunset to Pettit Road. was mud, no stone at all. That section No stone up the other way, they've stoned that since. 'Cause they stone this down this way first because the mailman use to go down that way, so they stoned it for him. with a horse and buggy in those days. He came around Didn't have the mailmen we've got today. Oh and six days a week they came. teacher •• And our music Andy Griffith said, he was the chief of police in Fort Erie at that time, then she later on went to the north end and went down there to two different homes to take lessons from.. And then before they built the church out here, Garrison Road United Brethren in 1929 I think they completed it, 28 or 29 while they were building •• it we held church down in the old stone front of the Garrison Road School. And at that time we had the church piano down there and the school piano and so for a Christmas concert at the Number 4 School and our teachers always had big Christmas concerts, great big ones and my sister and I played a duet in one and my music .• teacher and another distant relative of ours, played on the other piano and so we had four players on the piano. or 29 I think. That was in 1928 So, saw that grow and then of course the church in the SO's, I forget, it was about the middle fifties I'd say they built a large portion on the back for Sunday School rooms at the church. And then about six, seven years ago they built the new addition on the church. ( And then a few years ago they use to have horse sheds out the back to house the horses at church. B.B.: Where were they located? O.B.: Well they were located on the left side of the church and then when 11 �they built the addition on the back, they put it on the back of the lot yet. ( And now of course that's gone and that's where the parsonage is now, part of it. Well it's just the edge of that because they bought those, I was trustee of the church then whe they bought the three lots there and they built the parsonage on two of the lots. back in the, maybe in the 60's, somewhere like that. So that's And then they tore that down and bought those three lots and built a parsonage there. Webers were the first ones to live in it. So it's a few changes. And you take where Shaw's gasoline station.is there, that was my dad's uncle's place and he use to have a blacksmith shop out there years ago .. Phil Benner. And then he went down and bought where the Queen Elizabeth goes through there on the west side of Speiar Road and he was kelled with lightening from, he was out to the pump one time and a bolt of lightening come. that just passed away a few years ago. And that was his son Walter He was way up, 90 years old, a contractor in Fort Erie. B.B.: What other businesses were out in this area that might not O.B.: I remember when Orey Storm, well he lived down there. exacavating, he started it. ( ••• ? He had And he had pump ducks and diggers. His son Meno worked for him. And J. Storm, they have a company here now and it was started by his father. But there wasn't many other businesses around. B.B.: So most of the farmers would go into Fort Erie or Ridgeway or both? O.B.: Yes. Yes there was just farming. There was no other business. Orval Beam out there on the Pettit Road, he use to build some boats and he did gardening for the, lot of the American people. But that's all. There weren't too many other businesses around. And it was practically all farm land back in those days. B.B.: What type of farming was it? O.B.: Oh mixed farming grains and you had a team of horses or two, •• had some cattle and you made your own butter and had your own milk and cream •.• B.B.: Was the land good for farming? O.B.: Oh, yes the land was good here. And you'd grown different types of grain and hay to feed your stock. And you'd kill some of your beef, pigs or sheep and chickens, you had your own chickens. Not too many goats.' But farmers use to be good, we'd help one another 12 �and especially in thrashing time, we'd always exchange help .. silo filling. It's a lot of fun doing that. And of course then years ago we use to have Bertie Fair down at the race track and that was for the Township. And all the merchants put up booths and all the schools would compete in drills at that time. B.B.: What do you mean by drills? O.B.: Well going through different marching, this way and this way, crossing, and circles and squares and everything you could think of. And we use to pick up of lot of prizes from that. B.B.: What time of year would the fair be held? O.B.: In the fall. exhibits. And then they'd have exhibits too, farmers would have And it would maybe last a day or two. B.B.: Would there be a good turnbout usually? O.B.: Oh yes. It use to be good. We had a good turnout. All the new automobile dealers would bring their automobiles in on display and down below. then we, the winners would go to Welland Fair. day and it was a day off. That was a big We would go to Welland Fair and compete in, in that time, our County Fair. ( And So we use to go out there, we'd have a day off, children's day you know, go up there. And in high school we use to have our sports day in the spring that's competitiom. •• And in the winters we'd go to Toronto for the Provincial. I was up there one time in the relay, I think it was 1934, and won a relay from Fort Erie. B.B.: What do you think stopped the Bertie Fair? O.B.: I don't know if there wasn't much interest, not enough entries in it .. I don't really know what happened. B.B.: Do you know how long ago it stopped? O.B.: Oh, a long time ago. I don't know .. maybe it was the war time possibly. That could have been, I don't know. during the war time. 'Cause they didn't make cars It could have been that a lot of people occupied •. in different ways and that could have been when they just finished it. B.B.: So you use to go into Ridgeway to did you? O.B.: Well we didn't go into Ridgeway too much or Stevensville. .• On the occasion, something you wanted to go to or somebody you wanted to go and see on the business line occasionally. main place of Fort Erie was our •. 13 �B.B.: And you worked in Fort Erie? O.B.: Oh yes, all my life, forty-two and a half years. B.B.: So what year did you start at Horton? O.B.: 1940, right after the war started. B.B.: When did Horton come into Fort Erie? O.B.: It was 19 teen, in the teens I think. tanks for the railroads. They started building water That's when they started. B.B.: And when you started in the forties what was their main business? O.B.: Well a lot was war equipment. Then we made hundreds and hundreds of buoys for harbours; and oil refinerys for storage of oil;and underground storage tanks for down through Goose Bay, Labrador;and of course towns were growing and towns, cities wanted elevated water tanks for water supplies; the pulp industry, paper industry, the mines; they were all expanding all kinds of work. Today it's flat. •. B.B.: Did it employ many men? O.B.: Oh, yes. We had 250 to 300 men there during the war time. And after the war when it really picked up like Palmer Corp., Dow Chemical th�J"; •• really started up and got it going again. We did a lot oil refinerys, built them, •• ( all kinds. End stocks and small cases for hydro jobs. And Niagara Falls when they put the tunnels in underneath the city, we built the forms for that. They had expanding forms that they moved on tracks every day, quarts of it and we did that. When they built the new Hydro Plant in Lewiston, or not Lewiston, but Queenston we did that in fact I did the, started the first rings on it, attached •• to the generators. B.B.: Has Horton always looked the same? O.B.: Oh, they've expanded a lot. I remember back in the teens when they doubled that big shop while I was down taking music lessons, the late 20's they doubled that. Well then they..well some of the •• buildings are gone and others are new. They're still building here in the last year or two and they're still completing them now to make things more, oh more convenient and less handling of things. A lot of those buildings the crane wheel on the back was built when •• I was there and machine shop now they've built another new machine •. shop, paint shop and they had where a settle of buildings is now ( it's all different and they bring them in in bottles now. And the 14 �new offices, all new since I started <!lJ(IYWllil. there. In fact they took part of the upper originals all gone since'! started. ( And factory, the storey of the old office up near Welland and they made a house out of it. But, in fact before they had the Horton Steele built I think they bought it from a marble factory. down there. They use to make marble And I have a piece or two of marble here that they use to make down there. B.B.: What are some other factories that aren't around that you might remember? O.B.: Well they use to make Jello down at the, in the Arnour Co rnedicine •• company bought it over and now it's an apartment. Which my brother came down to check out to see if the railroad bothered them too much on behalf of the government to know if they could go ahead and build it. out here. That was the same time as the Garrison Road addition He came through and checked it out that weekend. But they use to; my cousin use to be one of the floor ladies down there. And Mentholateum I don't think they're there any more Buffaio Mr. •• Stratton use to be the head one there. are here and gone. ( •• And different companies Hart & Cooley Manufacturing made registers, my uncle worked there-for years and years and he use to run the machine that that made chains •. he use to have chains on it to adjust the drafts and checks on the furnaces, you use to grab it from the furnace up into the living parts and then you wouldn't have to go down to the furnace to adjust them. And well he went and measured.. up for the registers that Oak Hall down here, Harry Oakes estate and •• the Cassaloma when they built that or put the heat in .. he checked that all through for the heating conditioning. B.B.: So you've seen Fort Erie go through quite a few changes if you1·/c use to come down and shop and then you . ... O.B.: Oh, yes. Central Avenue didn't exist through there. had to go around by the river all the time. That was a •. you And then they put the bridge through ..oh, I forget when that went through, that Central Avenue Bridge, in the 60's maybe I forget. I'm not sure on that but you can look that up I guess when that went through. made that a lot more convenient. That And then of course there use to be Amigari down here on Gilmore and Concession. That was another little town but Amigari, Fort Erie and Bridgeburg all went together to make Fort Erie and that was back in the early thirties. 15 �I remember when that amalgamation went through. ( B.B.: What was the feeling of the people? O.B.: Well it wasn't too bad I guess. Maybe it did away with one mayor, set of councel in Fort Erie but it was quite a compact although it's a .•• .•• all those war time houses in the west end, Amigari section in the west end my uncle helped build on some of those and that sort •• of unified. Of course since then a lot of vacant lots are being filled in and then they built a new Roman Catholic Church, St Michael's Church. Did away with the other church on the Number 3 Highway out there by the mall. And oh, there was some other churches..there use to be a Presbyterian Church on Courtwright Street where the bowling alley is just east of oh south of the bowling alley and then that burnt down and they built the new one on Central and Highland and then that burnt a few years ago, had a fire. So, I remember when Central Avenue Church was just a square part and they built that religous education part on the south end..my uncle worked on that too. And to see all the changes now the where presently •. the Credit Union is located on the south-west corner of Jarvis and ( Central, that was built by John T. James. And he lived his house .• is gone in the last few years across from Don Dean Chevrolet, Chev-Olds Dealer, on the south-east corner of Dufferin and Central. That was his old home. And his daughter married Burt Miller who was a foreman at Horton Steele and their daughter married Ben Sauder who use to be treasurer of Hart & Cboley, well he's passed away now and he was on the hospital board too but she lived down on •• the Boulevard here. In fact, her husband that's who I named my brother after, Ken Sauder and my mother was flower girl for his parents when they got married. She was a Plato which there's a lot of Platos around here too. B.B.: John T. James seems to be quite a name with Fort Erie. O.B.: Yes, he was a prominent business man. I think he had a store, businessman. Yes he was quite famous. Of course some of the little stores are gone but I remember a lot of the old stores. I remember a lot of the old stores ! remember when practically all of Jarvis Street, •• the present buildings, if there are any brick ones I remember when .• they were all built. B.B.: Who built them? 16 �O.B.: Maybe Teal built some, maybe Oscar Teal, former Mayor Teal's father he built some. But they were practically all, any brick building there.. I remember when they built the post office. B.B.: Was there a big celebration when Jarvis Street was paved? O.B.: l don't think :;o, I don't think so. It was a mud road for a long time but then they paved it, and of course a lot of other streets following. They they seemed to do a couple each year since then you know but that was a long time ago. Now they went and changed some water lines or sewer lines just here a couple of months ago there. My neighbour did the work on it. B.B.: Were you at the Peace Bridge opening? O.,B: Yes, oh yes. B.B.: What do you remember about that? O.B.: Well loads of people and old cars and of course the Prince of Wales was there. And I have a little momenta somewhere of When the Peace Bridge opened. B.B.: Were there other celebrations going on around town? O.T.: I don't recall that. But of course at that time I was only nine years old. And well they've changed the entrances and the exits of the Peace Bridge buildings there several times since then. But then, they use to have a laneway going in there about the, where you go 1 in.. the same way you go in, where presently is the Mather Arch now, but they had like a little dr· iveway going in there with towers on both sides of the road, that on the driveway, which looked like tower, I guess you'd call them towers or lighthouse towers. I think Mr. Zimmerman tore them down if I'm not mistaken. But they demolished them. But they changed them sometimes. They had hoped at one time it was going to be a toll free exit or entrance, crossing. But not yet..they maintain it good. Lot of expenses there I guess, with a lot of help and they've repaved it several times and now they've changed the rnadways from four-lane to three-lanes a few years ago which gives them a little more room, before it was sort of crowded for space, especially if you had wide vehicles. B.B.: Well can you think of anything else as you look back, an)! other changes? O.B.: Well of course they've added street lights, they even have street 'i lights out here, which they didn't have and paved roads. They use to tar the roads and several years ago, this stretch they put a couple 17 �inches of pavement down which is better than tar because the other just fell apart ..if they oiled it, all the traffic going through to Fleet, hundreds of cars going past here. B.B.: On Sunset? O.B.: Yes we get them all, going west bound to Crystal Beach and that. The busiest town is in the morning and the night. And going to town to because they go through here to the Auction House, they go through here to the drive-in at night .. a lot of traffic through here. And even from the Niagara Boulevard you can cut right through up this way instead of .. . B.B.: So that's changed a bit. O.B.: Oh, it sure has! That Niagara Boulevard is one beautiful park. And I was to the Niagara Parks Commission celebration in Queenston..there lOOth anniversary last Saturday, last Friday. It was great and it's a wonderful park. B.B.: What about the golf course up here on the corner of Suset and Garrison.. do you remember when that opened up? O.B.: ( Oh, ya, just a few years ago. H e had started down at Gilmore Road and then he moved up here and bought this. B.B.: Where abouts on the Gilmore? O.B.: Ah, just where the Queen E. cut-off is on there. On the north side of the Gilmore, on the corner of Pettit and Sunset. He started ·. there but not too much and then he came up here. Ya I've known Gord for years. But he started, he had 8 holes now he's got, or nine holes, now he's got eighteen. It's a big golf course now, beautiful golf course. Now that way back use to belong to, the farm use to belong to the.. they lived down on Number 3 Highway.. they had that monument or that little plaque out front of the house, the old Alexander home..maybe it'll come back to me quick. But then it lay vacant for years and the Harry Oakes Estate bought i:t and just owned it. And my neighbours use to farm it then. Then later on they moved the barn over to the edge of their barn when they were in the dairy business. Then Gorham bought it from the Welland Securities. B.B.: Do you remember anything about Harry Oakes..he seemed to own different property here and there, in Fort Erie? O.B.: Well he was thrown out of a train because he couldn't pay his fare, that's when he found his gold. And then of course, I don't know if he was from Niagara Falls or how he got to Niagara Falls but he 18 �has the Oakes theatre down there and his big home down here and ( the golf course on that. B.B.: Down here? Oh, you mean Niagara Falls. O.B.: In Niagara Falls, yes. B.B.: I mean in Fort Erie though. .. O.B.: I don't know why he bought this way unless he did it to donate money but there's Oak's Park down on Gilmore and Central and he had owned this and then they sold it but I guess he had money and he must have either bought up places or donated lots and that to different areas, made a contribution. B.B.: Do you know any other property in Fort Erie? O.B.: No I didn't know any other property in Fort Erie . But he didn't use this place over here he just owned it. I don't know if there was sixty acres or something and then he bought it from them and developed it. And he sold the lots across the road and there a lot of beautiful homes there. Not any cheap ones. And I think he plans to build down at the end of. .himself some day, in the back of his driving range across from my brothers. He's got a vacant lot there. ( B.B.: So Mr. Benner is there anything else you can think of as you reflect back. You've given some excellent information. O.B.: Oh, not too much particularly I guess. I remember a lot of changes. Even this place has had a few changes outside. It was a brick house and now it's stucco over, the rest is stuccoed and a big addition on to it. It's been shingled several times. And lawns.. it use to be, the nottih of the house here use to be all garden. My grandmother use to keep flowers and she had her own vegetable garden too. She took care of that. And oh she had dozen and dozen of pruned and plum trees and grape yards, vineyards. Use to sell bushels of fruits in the fall and a big orchard in the back. That's all demolished now, all the trees are practically gone. So there's been a vast change around this area! But all I know .. of course buUdirig up here ... collects old tractors and restores them and he's got several buildings up here that he keeps, stores them in, all this equipment. My other brother left he's an aeronautical 'engineer with a Master's degree and he worked for DeHavilon Aircraft and then v,wllen they got slack, he's with the Q)vernment of Ontario, Environment. So he's busy that way but he's still active in airplanes .. he knows all about airplanes. 19 �He's a member..secretary of the Canadian Historical Aviation Society. And he's j ust plain crazy..we said that when he went to public school. ( B.B.: Well I thank you for the information you've given us. It's been very good. Thank you. O.B.: Well your welcome. ( \ 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Beverly Branton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Oliver Benner Location The location of the interview. Mr. Benner's home at 1273 Sunset Driver, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Benner, Oliver Description An account of the resource Provided here is a transcript of Oliver Benner's interview. He discusses such topics as: Schools Life on the farm Crescent Park Erie Beach Bertie Fair Horton Steel Factories Churches Peace Bridge Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 24, 1985 1980s 1985 churches Erie Beach factories and industry Fort Erie Horton Steel Oral history peace bridge transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/e8789b43dbc67df3e56ac03047590ff8.pdf f87016b7769477568f93236f56d6441c PDF Text Text This is Michael Near interviewing Mrs. Ruth Case, at her home at 141 Bertie St., it is May 27, 1985. M.N: Mrs. Case, you were born in Fort Erie? R.C: No, I was born in Sherkston, my Father was born in Fort Erie. M.N: And your Dad's name was Learn? R.C: M.N: R.C: Livingston Learn. And he had a business in Fort Erie? Yes, he's had a business in this district since ••. he was born in 1873 and he started building fence in 1892. M.N: Your family goes back a long way. R.C: Oh, he built a lot of fence in Fort Erie. M.N: R.C: M.N: R.C: Where did he have his business? In Sherkston. And your Brother still operates the business? No, my brother took over in 1953 and then in 1984, his son took over, Wilfred Learn, my brother and that's Carl Learn he's my nephew. M.N: So the business has been in the family for quite awhile? R.C: Oh, I should say so, since ... I haven't checked ... since 1892 to 1984 is quite awhile, its 1985 so Carl has had it for a year now. M.N: R.C: And how is he doing? Oh yes, he's really busy, its a lot different since my Dad started he had mostly farm fence to build, people didn't make chain link fence at that time, so now he has more business in town. M.N: So the business has gone from agricuture into the community? R.C: Right. M.N: Did you grow up in Sherkston? R.C: Thats right, when I got married fifty years ago we moved to Fort Erie, my husband and I. M.N: And that was Harold Case? R.C: Thats right. M.N: And he had a garage in Fort Erie? R.C: From that time on, yes. M.N: Did you always live in this house? R.C: No we lived at the north end of town, he had a garage behind Spear's a terrible looking little place, he sure didn't make much money at that tii:ne. 1 �( M.N: That would have been Bridgeburg at that time? R.C: Yes. M.N: And from our research, we've found that Bridgeburg and Fort Erie were considered two sep&rate little towns? R.C: Yes, that's right. M.N: R.C: You notice a big change in the town then? Oh my goodness, I should say, we bought this lot next to our house and built the garage, and now Ogilvie has a chiropractic business in there. M.N: R.C: M.N: Harold was over on the corner for quite a few years? Yes, he was, I don't remember what year that was. Do you remember as a girl up in Sherkston... did you go to school in Sherkston? R.C: M.N: R.C: ( M.N: R.C: Oh yes. Was that a big school up there? No, it was a litte tiny school with about 14 pupils. Where was that located? That was next to my Dads farm, so I never had to carry my lunch to school, I had to walk home, because it was right next to the house. M.N: R.C: M.N: R.C: Is it still there? Its still there but people are living in it. Oh, its someones home now. Yes, it was a little brick school. M.N: Do R.C: Humberston, they called it Humberston number 7. M.N: Do you remember any of your teachers? you remember the name of the school ? R.C: Oh, the one ••• the last one I had before I ••• sh� lives in Ridgeway her name is Miss Belfe'1 ld. M.N: Did you think it was a good school? R.C: Oh yes, it was nice, we had one teacher named Miss Currie, but a lot of people ••• she was into agriculture, she took us out on long walks in the woods, to see a hawks nest and all kinds of things ••• snakes which I hate ••• ( one time she had a snake this snake at school and they were passing it to hold, it was only a garter snake and she said if any of you girls leave the room she said you would get the strap, so I thought I'll take the strap, I jumped out of that room and run home, it was only a little way and my mother said she better not give you the strap. That was one thing I hated was snakes. �M.N: What would have been the closest town to you? R.C: They came to Fort Erie on horses. M.N: On horses? R.C: Did they come down the Garrison? R.C: No, I think they came down by back country roads. M.N: Mrs. Case is showing me a picture, who is in this picture Mrs. Case? R.C: Well this is my oldest sister and I and my Mother and Dad. M.N: Would that wagon be called a democrat? R.C: Yes, and the horses name is Fran k. M.N: Would you keep a horse like that for a long time? R.C: Oh, that horse lived to be 21. M.N: I imagine you can become pretty attached to R.C: Oh yes. M.N: R.C: a animal like that? What year would that have been, roughly? Well I'm a baby there and I'm 75 now... so that would have been 75 years ago... I was a tiny baby. M.N: Thats a nice picture. M.N: Would you go into town very often? R.C: No, my mother made the bread and butter ... so, we would go once every two weeks. M.N: R.C: When you went into town, would you go to B1·idgeburg or Fort Erie? Bridgeburg... I was trying to think of the store .•. I can't say I was just a kid. M.N: I bet Jarvis Street has changed a lot, was there a lot of stores down there? R.C: No, there wasn't many, there was only one grocery store, as far as I can remember. M.N: And what year would you you have come to live? R.C: Well that would have been fifty years ago. M.N: And you lived down in Bridgeburg and when you bought the lot you moved up here? R.C: We bought the lot off the town, it was really reasonable at that time M.N: ••• and it was owned by the town. So this area must have developed alot then? R.C: Oh yes. M.N: My mother has mentioned that there was a lot of e m pty spaces. R.C: This is a very old house, I've often wondered how old it is, you see Harold did it all over. 3 �M.N: ( Did you notice a big difference during the war? R.C: Oh yes, a lot more people came in, a lot of French people came in. M.N: Most of them worked at Fleet and Horton? R.C: Yes, they did. M.N: Through our research we've found a place called Winston Hall, were St. Michael's Church is now, do you remember that? R.C: No I don't remember that. M.N: People stayed there ... R.C: What year would that have been? M.N: R.C: M.N: 1939 or 40. I can't remember that I should. Who was the first mayor you remember? R�C: What was his name? M.N: Which mayor do you remember? R.C: I can't remember who the mayor was when we came here, but of course I remember Herb Guess, I remember he was a big man, when Harold had the garage they lived over the garage Mr. and ( Mrs. Guess, at the north end on the Blvd., now Spears have it, that was where Harold was with Hampell and Herb Guess lived upstairs. M.N: The town was a lot smaller then and you seemed to know a lot more people then? R.C: Well Harold knew a lot more people then I did. M.N: Well, he was a business man? R.C: Yes, thats right, he was in business for fifty years, until he passed away 3 M.N: years ago. Your family must have been out in that area for quite awhile... the Sherkston area? R.C: My goodness yes, all my relatives, my aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters, lived out there. M.N: R.C: Would you ever go into Ridgeway? Yes, we wouldn't shop there, there wasn't very much there when I was small. M.N: Do you remember Erie Beach, do you ? R.C: Oh yes, when I was a kid we used to go there for picnics, it was very nice, it was quaint, everything was much more quaint ••• they had a coaster there and I was sea red to death to get on it. M.N: They had .the big dance hall? 4 �R.C: M.N: ( Yes, they did. That must have been very nice? R.C: Yes it was, we used to have the farmers picnic there, until I got bigger. M.N: I don't remember anything about the dance hall, just the hall itself, I understand there was a lot of rides, and swiming pools, R.C: Oh yes, there was big rides , it was really quaint, ..• I always thought the ticket booths were so different then Crystal Beach, well you see it was a older park, it was really quaint. M.N: R.C: M.N: R.C: You must remember the Canadiana then? Oh yes. Were you ever on her? Well I was working at Crystal Beach when the Canadiana used to come in all the time, I worked at Crystal Beach at a ice cream stand. M.N: Things must have changed a lot? R.C: M.N: ( Oh yes. Do you remember the big band era? R.C: The big band era, oh yes thats the one Beach, you see I I remembe.r the most at Crystal worked there, at Crystal Beach, not Erie Beach and ... it would be so stormy that, the water would be coming over... they'd have to turn around and go back... they couldn't land, they used to get big crowds from Buffalo. M.N: Mostly Americans? R.C: Yes. M.N: Do you remember any of the big bands up there? R.C: No I don't remember the names of them. M.N: I heard it was very nice up there? R.C: It was nice, but its different now, now you pay to go in and ride every ride then you payed at every ride. M.N: The�'02.talking, maybe this year of bringing back some of the big bands, a special thing to raise money for the old Canadiana, to see if they can restore it. R.C: That was really beautiful. M.N: The Beach at that time, was there a lot more people staying at the Beach, actuali� living there? R.C: There was a lot of people staying there in cottages, a lot of people would come and stay the whole season. 5 �M.N: ( R.C: M.N: Mostly big family's then? Yes, yes, a lot of children, they would ride the rides. We heard that when Erie Beach folded they took a lot of rides up to Crystal Beach. R.C : They did, thats true, you must have talked to a lot of people. M.N: I'm learning something about the history, people mention things and I'm really surprised, have you ever heard of the dummy? R.C: I remember hearing about it but I was never on it. M.N: Did you use the ferry very much? R.C: Here in Fort Erie? Oh yes, we lived on Murray Street for awhile, and when the boat would leave Buffalo, we would hop right down u to the landing and go to Buffalo, we never had to wait, you see, we could see it leave Buffalo. M.N: R.C: M.N: Was it a long trip over? No, you were there in a short time. What would they do in the winter time, when the ice was heavy in the ... ? R.C: They wouldn't use it, I don't think so, I can't remember it in winter time, I wonder how people got to Buffalo, they must have used the ( trains, I guess, you could talk to Mr. Leslie he might know a lot about it. M.N: R.C: Who's Mr. Leslie? He was a police man on the C. N., he could tell you a lot ... he would know a lot more then I do. M.N: We get a lot of different view points. M.N: Do you notice a lot more people move now then they did years ago? R.C: M.N: I would say they do. And the nieghbours change more? R.C: Oh yes. M.N: In this area, I remember as a boy, Harold had a garage on the corner, Thompson's had a store, who had the store on the corner of Bertie and Central ••• R.C: I know its changed a lot? I can't remember who was in there, the one down the street was there for a long time ••• M.N: That was Annie Crockers. R.C: She was there for a long time ••• I don't think that place is tooold, do you Mike? 6 �M.N: I can't remember.This wasn't the only section to go shopping, you could go to the south end, did you go to the south end very much? ( R.C: No,I would say we kept going to the north end more. M .N : There seems to be a lot more down there? R.C: Yes, on the main street there, oh I did like Thompsons, when he was there, we used to shop there a lot, he had such nice meat. He was a butcher wasn't he? M.N: R.C: M.N: Yes he was, thats Red's Mrs, Thompson, I I R.C: father. haven't seen years, but she is still around, guess? Ross's wife, the older lady is still living... isn't that... say she would be a good one to interview, M.N: her in I wonder where she is living. She was living over by Bob Hanna's, but she moved to ... somewere. R.C: My she must be a good age. M.N: !think she's in her nineties. R.C: You could talk to Ross, he could tell you. M.N: Did you feel strange coming to Fort Erie, was it like coming to a strange town? R.C: ( Actually it was, coming from the country, I had never lived in town before. M.N: R.C: Was it difficult for you, was it kind of scary? Well we had a small apartment in Mr. Johnson's house on Phipp s St, just M.N: two rooms, when we first started, they were nice people. A lot different now with all the conviences, my mother mentioned about the ice box? R.C: The money I ing at had in the bank, when we got married, I had from work the Beach in the summer time, is what we used to buy our first refrigerator, it was one of the first, it wasn't big like they are now. M.N: R.C: A lot of convience, the television makes a big difference? I don't know what I would do with out the T.V., I was wondering if I should show you the picture of my pupils. M.N: Sure. M.N: Mrs. Case is showing me a picture of some of her pupils, and you taught guitar, didn't you Mrs. Case? R.C Thats right. M.N: That was Spanish guitar? R.C: Well I did both Hawain and Spanish, these boys in the back are play ing Spanis}1 and these are Hawaian, some of the girls are holdin g theres up, these two boys were twins, from Stevensville, the Beck 7 �R.C: boys, you know one has just died in Fort Erie, he lived down here and this is Ross Johns, do you know him? ( M.N: I don't believe I do. R.C: And this is Mrs. Denim. M.N: I know Mrs. Denim, she was one of my teachers. R.C: And this girl is from Fort Erie, her name is Plato, this boy went to war, his name was Warren, he died, he was killed. M.N: What year would this photo be, Mrs. Case? Oh, oh, can you find me in this picture, you can see the difference R.C: in how long its been, you haven't got this on the tape, have you? M.N: Oh yes, it doesn't matter. R.C: Well I'll see if you can find... I showed it to some one yesterday, Mrs. Buyues, and she reconized me but a lot of people don't. M.N: I can't find you. R.C: Well you wouldn't reconize me, we came here 50 years ago, I started teaching right away, it was fifty years ago. M.N: Had you always played the guitar then? I started... I took lessons when I was a kid, so many people asked R.C: me ... I don't see this girl. [ the picture] ( M.N: This is a interesting building [the picture] what building would that be, I notice the windows, was that a school? R.C: No, it was taken in Port Colborne at a studio. M.N: Did you play concerts? R.C: We played for the Lions Club several times, we went as far as Niagara­ on-the-Lake to play, a lot of people in the Lions Club would remember, I think that was the onl':l time we got a standing ovation, we played a Hawaian piece, called Kala ing ton hus, and that was at the Fort Erie High School, I never forgot that of course. M.N: When did you stop teaching guitar? R.C: Quite a few years ago ••• I don't remember what year it was, it was after we moved to Bertie Street. M.N: Well its nice you have something to do. Did you belong to a school or were you just on your own? R.C: On my own, I asked my teacher if I could give lessons and he said sure, go ahead and do it, I was taking lessons from a real Hawaian, the teacher I had. ( M.N: R.C: _ Was there very much to do in Fort Erie, when you first came here? Yes, I think there was, we always went to the United Church, I played my- guitar in a orcllstra in the United Church, yes there was lots to do, we were very busy. 8 �M.N: ( Did you ever get to the theatre, movie shows? R.C: Oh yes. M.N: That was in the north end? R.C:Yes, it was. M.N: Thats the old Bellard, the Ziffs owned that didn't they? R.C: Yes, they did. M.N: That was across from were Ernie Benner lived, Spears are in there now, do you remember him delivering coal? R.C: Yes I do, Ernie Benner. M.N: I've interviewed him, he's living out on the Bowen Road, he's a nice guy. M.N: It must have been awful messy with coal? R.C: He used to deliver up here, so we had coal here. M.N: How would you ... this is something younger people wouldn't know you would have to put the coal directly into the furnace and lite it? R.C: You sure did and you know what I did, I went out to see the milk man, he had come for his ticket money and the furnace went out, he had been talking to me for quite awhile, so I had folded it all up in my hands, I went down to the furnace and threw the money ( in and all my change was in the furnace. M.N: Thats something thats gone too, is the milk delivery, there used to be quite a few dairys in town, they used to use horse and wagon for quite awhile? R.C: Yes they did, in the winter time they used to come with a sliegh and a team of horses, to deliver milk. M.N: Ernie Benner still has a team of horses, he still works them in the fields but theres so much work involved, tractors are easier. M.N: Was there a lot of building up here, there wasn't as many houses around? R.C: Fort Erie sure has a lot more houses then was when we came. M.N: Just up the road, on Bertie Street is the Douglas Memorial Hospital, thats grown quite a bit hasn't it and the Fire Hall? R.C: The fire hall wasn't here when we first came. M.N: Oh it wasn't. r.c; Mrs. Plato was telling me, that there was a fire, they let all the horses out at the race track and they ran right down Bertie Street, these beautiful race horses, that was before we were here, Bertie Street was just mud, all those race horses went right through all that mud and tore right down Bertie St. of course they had to let 9 �( R.C: them out. M.N: That must have been quite awhile ago R.C: Oh Mrs. Plato, her husband worked on the railroad, he had both his legs cut off, run over by a train, his daughter died not to long ago, and that was this cute little M.N: girl here [ the picture] she was cute. Do you notice that Fort Erie was a railroad town, the railroad was pretty big in Fort Erie? R.C: Oh yes indeed, when we first came here there wasn't to much but that, it seemed to me. M.N: R.C: And that was the old steam locomotives? All that black smoke and a lot of noise, we were quite close to them on PhiJrStreet, it was pretty noisy. M.N: My mother mentioned living on Courtwright Street that when she did her laundry that if you left it out to long it would be covered with soot. R.C: M.N: ( She was right, now they don't have that. There talking now that Fort Erie might come back as a railroad town, there developing more, which should help our employment. R.C: That would be good. M.N: Do you remember as a girl. .• you mentioned that Bertie St. was just dirt, were most of the streets just dirt then, just mud roads, there was very few paved roads, were there? R.C: Nothing like now of course, we weren't living here at the time of the race horses, that would have been more then fifty years ago, how many years has the race track been there? M.N: 1870's, 1880's something like that, thats considered one of the classic race tracks, very few of them left. M.N: When you were living in Sherkston, Mrs. Case, 'were did you get your mail was there a centre were you could go? R.C: Yes, we did, we had to go to Sherkston. M.N: That would have been like a village then? R.C: ·It was very tiny, yes, its bigger now compared to then, they have had a couple of grocery stores there when I was a kid, but Dad had lived in Fort Erie and he liked coming down here, thats why he did it. M.N: Do you know were he lived when he was in Fort Erie? R.C: No I don't know if my oldest sister would know or not. _ 10 �M.N: R.C: ( Did he farm down here? Well, he ••• when he was quite young he and his brother had • •. I think that was after he started building fences, they had one of those thrashing machines, that go around and M.N: ••• a big steam engines. We were talking to Mrs. Spear out on the Bowen Rd., she mentioned about the big thrashers coming through, the men would work. R.C: We would hear that coming down the road, the kids would all run to watch it go by, but you know they are going to show out at my brothers place, they have those old steamers come in for a display. M.N: R.C: That would be interesting to see. That happens on the 29 to the 3 0 and the first of July, and they have real old machinery, its right on the farm up there, thats the farm my Dad had, a lot of people come from Fort Erie, so they know about it. M.N: They show teams up there, don't they? R.C: Yes, they have horses, the ponies come. M.N: I believe Ernie Benner mentioned that. He loves to show his horses. ' Oh,thats good. R.C: ( M.N: Was that a popular thing,hay rides? R.C: Yes, we did, you see later on, we went for sle."1 gh rides in the winter. M.N: Was there any place for you to go when you lived out in Sherkston. R.C: No, not much. M.N: Isolated,isn't it? R.C: I should say and when you go to Crystal Beach you would get two nickels, well you could spend a nickel to ride on the little train or the merry-go-round or get a ice cream cone, you ha d your choice, there was six of us, so each of us got a dime, so we had a nickel for the rides or a nickel for a ice cream cone. M.N: That was a big deal? R.C: That was a big deal. M.N: Now you can't get a bubble gum for a dime now, can you? R.C: A little boy told me, the other day he wouldn't bend over to pick up a nickel, right over here at the Beckers store, I bent over and said here's a nickel and he said I wouldn't bend over for a nickel. M.N: Things have certainly changed? R.C: I should say so. M.N: Different people have mentioned that they would go to the show and they would take a dime, get in for a nickel and a nickel for pop corn or what ever. 11 �M.N: R.C: That is a big one, I still can't get used to that. M.N: ( ' So that's another thing thats changed, the prices of things? Do you think the working man's a lot better off, he makes more money but things cost so much more? R.C: Thats true, that is a very good question. M.N: Does it worry you the way prices keep going the way they are? R.C: I would say it would have, but you see, Harold... thank goodness he took care of me good, I don't care who knows that, its the truth Mike. M.N: R.C: You must remember the great depression? Yes indeed, that was close to the time we got married, do you know how much he would bring home some weeks, I don't care who knows it, when we were on Phipp5 St, $5.00 a week, imagine living on $5.00 a week, they get three times that an hour now, $5.00 some times that's all he brought home. M.N: R.C: It must have been hard on the town then, the Depression? I would have thought so. We survived, I was giving guitar lessons, so that helped, you couldn't charge them much at that time. ( M.N: Most of the people were in the same boat, weren't they? R.C: Sure they were. M.N: That would make a difference too wouldn't it? R.C: I think so. M.N: Buying food was a lot more different then? R.C: Oh yes. M.N: Your meat was fresh cut rather than packaged R.C: It certainly is a different world. M.N: . Do you think for the better in some ways? R.C: I don't know, I wouldn't want to say, I suppose it is, but the terrible things didn't seem to happen, of course we wouldn't hear about it as much. M.N: Well, communications are a lot better now. R.C: Well with television we hear everything, so maybe it was just as bad but we didn't know. M.N: R.C: ( The second war must have been a shock to the people? Oh indeed, the closest relative I had was a cousin, and ••• it was Girv Fretz, you know, he's my cousin. M.N: He's a member of parliment? ' R.C: Yes he is and his wifes brother and I sent him packages, chocolate bars. 12 �( M.N: You must remember rationing then? R.C: Oh yes, I should say so, when sugar was rationed that's when I stopped putting it in my coffee. M.N: What else was rationed? R.C: Meat was. M.N: Was it a difficult ration, did you miss it a lot? R.C: Well, it was a little bit difficult, you didn't get to much, I had my kitty cat that I thought so much off, and she liked meat, then Sullivans Fish and Chips place was down here at that time, he would give me the little ends and I would cook them for my cat, so the kitty had lots of fish. M.N: Somebody is going down to interview Mr. Sullivan, Mrs. Sullivan passed away a few months ago and Mr. Sullivan is there. R.C: That should be interesting, his fish and chips were so good, when my family came to visit, we would have fish and chips, they all liked them and it was cheap to what fish and chips are now, it wasn't very ex pensive . ( M.N: He must have had quite a business there, with the baby hole right there and all the swimmers. R.C: You remember that? M.N: Oh I'm getting up there. R.C: Oh no, you:ii young. M.N: The southend was like a sep�rate little town, it had its own doctors there, do you remember any of the doctors? R.C: I remember Dr. Streets and Dr. O' Mullivany, you remember him He's gone now too . . R.C: Does Ernie Benner remember the one who started the hospital? M.N: I think he might have mentioned meeting Dr. J? ouglas, he mentioned Dr. O'Mullivany one time, Ernie Beriner's father paid him with two tires, because his car was in such bad shape and he needed these tires, I guess he didn't have much money, he took the two tires as payment. R.C: He didn't have much, he was good to us. M.N: That was in the days when doctors visited the house, they don't do that any more. R.C: No they don't. M.N: Are you happy with the way the town is running, do you think the local government is doing okay, tell them about it, happy with the water rates ? 13 �R.C: f Yes, don't you think that $74.00 for a woman living alone is quite abit for water, I think thats pretty high. M.N: When we live next to one of the greatest fresh water supplies in the world. R.C: Well that bothers me. One person doesn't use much water, I only wash with the washing machine ever� other week, I don't like that big water bill. M.N: The taxes must have really increased over the years? R.C: Well, I wonder if I could find any of the first ones. M.N: Your property tax and with Harold having the business to R.C: It sure is higher than it was, but of course you expect that, but the water bill •.. .•• they're.not that high in Niagara Falls or Port Colborne. M.N: Do you think your service is good, garbage pick up, the clearing of the streets and that? R.C: I can't find any trouble with that, they sure did fix the sidewalk out in front here, I 'was glad they did, right in front of my house, the water used to stand in there on the sidewalk, everyone had to walk on the lawn, they fixed that, I don't like that water bill. M.N: R.C: M.N: R.C: Do you notice anything different because of Regional Government? I can't say that bothers me ta:>much. Some people are mad at it, they say its toobig. ' I was worried that they would put all the police up in St. Catharines, but they are on the streets, and they come and si � on the corner and I'm glad they do. M.N: Have you noticed most of your nieghbours have stayed the same over the years, pretty well? R.C: Yes, I would say so. \ 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Michael Near Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ruth Case Location The location of the interview. Ruth Case's home at 141 Bertie Street, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Case, Ruth Description An account of the resource This is a transcript of Ruth Case's interview. She discusses topics such as: Schools Sherkston Bridgeburg Erie Beach Churches Theatres North end Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 27, 1985 1980s 1985 Bridgeburg churches Erie Beach Fort Erie north end Oral history schools sherkston transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/1c2751df9c6bb647348d63d423317dcc.pdf 78c1904141efd18c3bf40980a0fc2e8c PDF Text Text Beverly Branton interviewing Mrs. Carver, on April 21st, 1985. The interview is being held at 3801 Farr Ave., which is Ridgewood Manor, in Ridgeway, Ontario. ( B.B.: Hello, Mrs. Carver. R.C.: Hello. B.B.: Could you tell me the date of your birth, please? R.G.: 1903, April 9th. B.B.: And where was the place of your birth? R.C.: Cleveland, Ohio. B.B.: How did you come to this area? R.C.: Well, my mother came over, come across the border in December of I was three years old, I was three in April, and this was December... ••. B.B.: 1906? R.C.: Yes, that would be .•• and we went to Toronto and then out to Richmond Hill. My grandfather had a farm out there and we stayed there for the winter . And then my mother came back into this locality again where she had all her relatives. Grandfather Climenhage was born just east of Stevensville a little ways and he married a lady from over Gormley way and they went on a farm over there after he was married to her, it was my mother's stepmother. B.B.: So you moved onto a farm? R.C.: Yes, grandfather had a farm but we didn't. We came back over here, my mother's uncle, Daniel Climenhage rented a place for her1.. My dad was in the States and B.B.: Could you describe the farm to me like R.C.: ••. •.• do you remember what it looked •.• ? In Gormley, it was a big farm, Ithink probably a hundred acres. And he did mixed farming, he had cows and of course some horses . � did all his farming with the horses. after, no that's not right And then they retired, that fall my brother Alfred was born, 1912 after ••• my father died. My father died, was killed on the railroad, in March 1912, and my brother,my youngest brother, was born in July of 1912. And then in 1913, my grandfather sold his farm and moved into Gormley, retired. B.B.: R.C.: { Where is Gormley? Oh, it's right on number 40, 48 on Don Mills Rd., that runs north out of Toronto. It's out of Toronto, 26, 27 miles, I think. B.B.: Ho w did you come to this area? 1 �R.C.: Well, because my mother's relatives were over here. My mother's brother was over here and she had a sister that was over here and ( her uncles were all over here. There was Uncle Peter Climenhage who lived just east of Stenvensville on a farm and Uncle Daniel Climenhage that lived east of Stevensville over by the Michigan Central it was then, Michigan Central Railroad. And most of my mother's relatives were over here so that's why she came back over here to stay here. And when my dad came back well they moved into the place that the golf links have got it now. It was Albee Winger's farm but I don't know the golf links, east of Ste: vensville there. They've taken up a lot of farms ••• Josiah Winger's farm and Albee Winger's farm, theres different ones, I just can't remember them all, but the golf links has taken them all that we lived that's included. �P· And the place And then in 1910 we moved up to Stevensville, in town)where Spike Lake lived. B.B.: Was that right in the village of Stevensville? R.C.: Yes, right next door to the library there. B.B.: What was your home like? Can you describe how it was lighted, how it was heated? R.C.: Oh, coal oil lamps. Heated with a woodstove. At night it would get mighty cold when the woodstove went out. B.B.: What was the population of Ste._vensville, approximately? R.C.: Oh, I don't know but it was only east and west main streets that ran through. The only other street there was, was where the schools are, the old school, not where it is now, on Airline. On Airline is where there were a couple of houses on but outside of that ... Where Sam House's houseJit) that was a side street but I, when we moved there and after we got aquaintedJI1 we kne w everyone that lived in Stevensville but it's grown so much that I've lost track of most of the people now. B.B.: Wby:do you think it's grown so much? R.C.: Well, during the war times, the 2nd World War, when the Fleet was running, there was so many people came in)and it's cheaper to live in Stevensville then itwas in Fort Erie>and besides the housing in Fort Erie, they did put up a lot of war time houses down there, but there were a lot of people came up to Stevensville and settled down ( there. Theres some of them still there. It made the town grow. Of course now they have the color plant there, and they have iron 2 �foundry of some sort a nl the unit rig is down there. That is right down by Uncle Daniel Climenhage...that was Jim Baker's farm where they are ( on. B.B.: Before these factories were in Stevensville what type of employment did the people have? R.C.: There wasn't any right in Stevensville, outside of L lyod Wales...he's a plumber. His father before him, Levi Wale had a tinsmith t lfy called it. He was a tinsmith and he had a store. That store is still standing on east Main Street, just east of the corner store there. B.B.: What is a tinsmith? R.C.: Well, they, I think they did, dealt in tin a lot more then, they didn't have the aluminum like they have now. People had tin pails, you had tin dishes that you cooked in, your kettles, things that you cooked in. If they weren't iron, they were tin mostly and they'd get holes in them and I think he was kept busy between eavestroughing, he dealt in that, and mending almost kept him busy, because he'd do the saudering, he'd sauder the holes shut. Milk pails, oh, numerous things, they were tin and they weren't as su bstantial as the stainless steele and the aluminum that they have now. ( Then a little later they got granite but granite you would knock off, you would chip off, and you'd get holes in your kettles and things7 and life was a lot different than it is now. B.B.: Explain more how life was different as you reflect back. R.C.: Well, I think children were more contented in those days. We didn't have toys like children have now. B.B.: What type of toys did you have? R.C.: Well, we girls had rag dolls. B.B.: Could you describe a rag doll? R.C.: Well, it's something like these raggedy-annes only they were printed. I don't know if any were embroidered. Some of these raggedy-annes that you make at home, the features are all embroidered. I have one. But those that we had, you know those that you buy in the stores that are printed, you buy animals such as duck that are printed and that's how our rag dolls were. Some of them were a good size almost as big as a small child. I had some of my dresses from when I was a couple years oldthat I played with on my dolls. B.B.: What other social activities like that did you do; ...in the Stevensville area? R.C.: Well, I was pretty small when we lived there. I don't remember there was any other social activities . We went to church on Sunday and prayer meeting night but we kids were mostly contented to play at home or if 3 �we had other kids to play with of course. I don't remember any other activities that went on for children, not like they have now, nothing like ( it is now! B.B.: Did you move somewhere else? R.C.: Oh, yes we moved out to the Bowen Road, the Willick's live in that spot; it's a different house because we had lived in burned down later. That's where we lived in 1912 when my father was killed. He was a cook by trade so he was all over the place and he was cooking for the bridge gang on the railroad. B.B.: The bridge gang ... ? R.C.: They mended bridges. Now they don't go and mend bridges. were all made of wood before, outside the rails. The bridges They drove in great big posts, like pileing they called it, like great big telephone poles, that they drove down in the ground and this was the braces they had to put the bridge on. B.B.: Was that done in this area, also? R.C.: Yes there's a bridge down, you know where Sider Road is, up Bowen Road the Sider Road, well it's down below there and then there's one up by, we always called it by Ben Deans, that's Winger Road. B.B.: Why did you call it Ben Deans? R.C.: Well, Ben Dean lived on the corner and he had a saw mill. That was on e activity, he had a saw mill, way back, well we lived in town in 1910. And there was another bridge, I guess right above, no right there by our place, where I lived; just west of Stevensville there was another bridge; and there was another one up above the church, the Brethern in Christ Church, up by Burger Road. And then my father's cars, boarding cars had moved from Stevensville up to Dain City and dad had ordered some things from Bon's, Lyn Bon's father was a baker and he had a bakeshop there on the corner where Lyn Bon lived. Later on then it was the Post Office, that was - Ly.nBon and his wife had the post office. And Pat Robinson, he owned the store, down on the corner where the restaurant is now and one or the other hadn't sent the. . order to him. And he came down at night on the little one man hand car to look after it. And my mother wasn't home she was down at her brothers, at Emerson Climenhages and so he had to go back that night. And it was terribly fogy and he didn't see the light of the train, it was a passenger train, he had been warned but he had 40 minutes and he thought he could make it -::-:'r· Dain City by that 4 �time but it was foggy and it was March and the rails were slippery with frosty, and he didn't make it. He only r:iade it about two miles west of where the church is, Brethren in Christ Church, when the train hit him, so... B.B.: It was just after that you moved to Bowen Road? R.C.: We lived on Bowen Road then. Then my mother's health broke down, the next spring, after my youngest brother was born and so some of her uncles tooks some of the family. Sally Climenhage's had my other sister and my sister and Uncle Sim Siders, had her twin brother Emerson and my brother John that lives here now was at Uncle Peter Climenhages and she took me with her to Markham she went over to grandfathers in Markham, and took me over there, and she had an Aunt Katie Laymen, that I had never saw before · and she was deaf, and I went to her place, and I got so homesick I thought I was going to die. That was a bad summer for me. B.B.: When did you move back? R.C.: We came back in the fall, time for school, again and my mother's uncle rented the house where I lived in, where I came from, just west of Stevensville. B.B.: Where did you go to school? R.C.: Oh, I went numerous places because I went and stayed with different people and worked. And my brother John, was went to a cousin of my mother's on a farm, he was at Warren Wingers for quite a few years. And I worked. and went to school. I washed ba by diapers and washed dishes So that way I was around different schools. I started school down at Nimber 7 and then of course we moved upto Stevensville and I went to Stevensville school and I went to Number 8 school in Bertie and I went down along the boulevard, I don't know what number that was, I forget but it was down along the boulevard. I worked for Charlie Wales when they had a small baby and then they had another small child, she was maybe two or so. B.B.: Why R.C.: Well they were all in Bertie Township. were the schools called by numbers? townships now. Now we have regional schools, regional...it's all Fort Erie, regional. ( You see we don't have the But then it, we went in the township schools, Bertie and Wainfleet, Crowland and Willoughby and then...those are all the eastern ... Humberston. I didn't get that far though. I didn't get up that far though. I went to these eastern schools more. 5 �B.B.: What do you remember of your school days? R.C.: Well, they were all one room schools, all but the Stevensville school. Stevensville had two floors. ( The junior grades were down below and the upper grades upstairs but they went by classes then - primer class, then junior 1st and senior 1st and all the way up to junior 4 and senior 4. Then they tried entrance. I got as far as Junior 4th. I never got that far. But I wasn't a good stude�t to start with and then moving from school to school. B.B.: How would you get to school? R.C.: Walk. B.B.: Was it a distance? R.C.: Sometimes it was. Well when we went to Stevensville school we walked from Bowen Road in. I suppose that's maybe a mile or a mile and a quarter or something. 8 we had a mile or so. And when we went up to Number We never had, I don't think we ever had any more than a mile and a half or so to go to school at any place. B.B.: What were the roads like? R.C.: Snow up to your... up to your hips just about sometimes. and south roads always drifted in badly. and overshoes. ( The north And we didn't have snowsuits We had whole knit stockings; they'd get packed all in with snow; of course they were wool, they'd absorb the moisture . When we got to school you'd brush it off as the best you could and the wool would absorb the moisture, more or less, you wouldn't sit with wet legs like you would with cotton stockings. And heavier shoes, we wore the heavier shoes then what anyone wears now, outside of the men's workshoe. They were more on that order, not quite as big but they were heavier shoes. And they kept them greased so that they would shed the water. B.B.: What did you grease them with? R.C.: Well, just depended. Some people I guess, could afford to buy something from the store that, they had a lot of harness grease and things that the men treated their harness with, to keep the moisture off and keep it from rotting and falling apart. The harness was made of leather but oh, the shoes were all leather then too. They were real leather, they weren't artificial like it is now. B.B.: Where would you buy your shoes? R.C.: Well, Pat Robinson had shoes there. pretty well partitioned off, I guess. He had a general store, now it's The restaurant in one part and there's a hair dresser in the south part. But he had the south part 6 �with dry goods and shoes and you could buy almost anything there. And then 'round to the part that the door that faces west, that was ( the grocery store. B.B.: What could you buy in the grocery store in comparison to what you can buy in them today? R.C.: Well, not any greens. Not any produce like you buy now. Everything was canned... oh, they use to buy things in big barrels then, you bought in bulk. Sugar was in bulk, brown sugar was in bulk, soap flakes came in bulk later on. B.B.: Soap flakes... what... ? R.C.: Well, like our dried soap now, it's crumbled now, it's more in a powdered nowbut then it was in flakes. B.B.: You mean to wash clothing with? R.C.: Yes. And soda bis quits came in big barrels, cheese was in great big...I don't know how much they would have weighed... great big blocks and they had a big, look like almost a meat cleaver, the big knife that it was cut with. You'd fasten it on its side so you, you could lever it to cut big chunks of cheese. different then they are now! ( Oh, stores were a lot You didn't go around and help yourselves like you do at the self-serves now. A clerk waited on you. B.B.: A clerk would take you to the food? R.C.: Well they'd get it. They had to cut the cheese, they had to. : and . as far as meat, I don't remember any meat. You had to go to a butcher shop to get meat. B.B.: Where was the butcher shop located? R.C.: I don't remember that we had a butcher shop in town then. There' butchers outside of town. Charlie Burger was a butcher and had a butcher route, a meat route that he went twice a week in the summer time . And then, after he quit Hart Fretz was a butcher for years. B.B.: The meat route ... how would he deliver his meat? R.C.: Well, he had a route all the way from Stevensville to Fort Erie. He pedalled in Fort Erie. And Alvin Lapp, later on, later years with a truck but these men had horses. B.B.: How would he carry the meat? R.C.: Well, they had a big covered wagon and it had sort of racks on the sides where he kept his tools, his knives, his cleavers and meat saw, and paper to wrap it in. They didn't really wrap it they just give you paper to carry it in the house in. And he cut the meat, cut 7 �what you wanted. . B.B.: R.C.: ( Would he go house to house or would he just.. ? Yes, usually when he came down through he'd stop, Charlie Burger had a whistle and he'd stop and blow his whistle. Oh, and Rub Noyes did too, he went on the meat route too, for quite a long time. My brother John did too, he pedalled meat to Fort Erie and on down through Cresent Park and all down through there for quite a few years until he had his own meat market in town, in this town. B.B.: Do you remember the Cresent Park area...what it looked like? R.C.: There was only a few houses along the lake I think, in Cresent Park area years ago and Erie Beach, you see they had a beach with a lot of rides and things there, Erie Beach. B.B.: Do you recall that? R.C.: Not very much. I very seldom got to anything like that. didn't have any convenience to get anywhere. We We never owned a car, we never owned a ...that's my parents I'm tailing about not... after I was married, my husband had a car when we got married. ( He had a Model T, Ford. I learned how to drive on a Model T. Ford. B.B.: What was that like? R.C.: Well, you operated it with your feet. Describe that? It was almost like a gear shift car now only you didn't have any gear shift, you had a hand lever for brake but you also had a foot pedal for brake too but you operated the reverse and the go ahead with one pedal, the clutch pedal. B.B.: Did it take you a long time to learn how to drive it...was it difficult? R.C.: No, no. B.B.: What was your husbands occupation? R.C.: He worked on the railroad. He was a railroad man for 40 years� s ection labourer. B.B.: What is that. ? R.C.: Well they packed the ties all by hand, and they put in new ties by hand, and they put in, they didn't have any derrick to lift it, nothing. Two men took a hold of them with tongs and they had to use ( a , I can't even remember what it was, to pick the stones up in between to get it clear so they could slide a tie underneath the rails. Where they'd have to have new ties they'd have to put them in by hand. 8 �B.B.: What railroad did he work for? R.C.: He worked for New York Central. He worked for, it was Michigan ( Central first and then I don't know, they went bankrupt or so mething and New York Central took it over. B.B.: What route did they have? R.C.: Well it runs from Fort Erie on, all the way to Windsor but of course he had, first long they had a section, a section house up by House Road and he went back up there to go to work. And there section ran east a ways and then west but later they lengthened the sections out and went all the way to Fort Erie and he had to drive to Fort Erie to go to work. But now they do everything by machines. They pull the spikes out of the ties, you know that hold the rails, they'd pull them up and they'd take the ties all up from underneath all by machine.... [*som�nnP> at door]. .. excuse me ... groups now and they'd boarding cars there in Stevensville on the siding and they'd come through in big groups, the men, and just work in big groups, and the machinery they have now is amazing, and the men did that all by hand when my husband worked on the railroad. B.B.: ( Do you remember approximately what year the machinery came in? R.C.: That came in, pretty well, most of it, of course they had some. They had the air packer, arid com presion to pack ties with but I don't think he ever used that. things like that then. It was only the extra gangs that had But he got off the railroad, retired in '6 1 and it was after that that they, well they still co me in big gangs buth they don't have section men, in sections anymore like they use to. Because they don't do it by hand anymore. They do it by all, these big gangs, they do it all over, and they just come through in spasms. .� B.B.: But there's an inspector that ·goes over the railroad every day or so, they have a ·mototcar. Did the depression affect the work of the railroad ? R.C.: Oh, it sure did! B.B.: In what way? R.C.: My husband, well they only worked three days a week. I don't know if they split the gang up, I don't remember that, if they split the gang up and three men worked three days and the others worked ( three days, I don't know if they did it that way or not, or if they only worked the three days. But he only worked three days a week for a whole year and we had a big lot. And we raised our own vegetables 9 �and things and I canned everything, everything that was cannable. And we had our own pigs, we had a cow and my husband kept the ( calf 'till fall and butchered the calf, the cow would have a calf in the spring and then in the fall he'd butcher the calf and we had some chickens and we had some ducks, couple of years there when the depression was so bad and we lived pretty well. I made my own butter. B.B.: How did you make your butter? R.C.: Well, I had a churn. An old dash-churns. And I'd bake my own bread mostly during·the depression and we had two children during the depression. And those two children, wasn't able to pay the doctor until after the depression was over. B.B.: Did you have your children at home? R.C.: Yes. I had them all at home except the youngest one. I couldn't get a nu rse to come to the house anymore so..a practical nurse. B.B.: Why? R.C.: Well, the lady I had that came for most of the other children, her mother had cancer and she was sick and she couldn't come. She had to nurse her mother but... ( B.B.: What is a practical nurse? R.C.: Well, she's not a trained nurse, she's just a practical nurse. got her training through practice and not schooling. She And I went Mrs. Pages there i n town she a sort o f nursing hone then. to She took quite a few maternity cases at that time. B.B.: Oh, describe that home. Where was it located? l_l.C.: Right there in Stevensville, the Edgar Page house. Do you know where the United Church is there in Stevensville...oh just second house I guess from south of the church of the United Church. And she had a big room, I think they might have taken a partitian out. She had four beds in there. B.B.: You'd go there as soon as you went into labour... and she was...? R.C.: U-hum, I had my youngest child there and then I was there for ten days, you stayed in bed for ten days in those days. So I was in bed for ten days and then I went home. B.B.: Did the doctor come there? R.C.: Oh, yes. Doctor Buell was sick that time so he couldn't deliver. ( He delivered all the rest of my children, my twins too. My twins were born at home. One weighed 8 and a half and the other 6 pounds. They are now 53 years old. 10 �B.B.: Did it cost to go to a home, to have your children? R.C.: Well, a little bit more than I had at home. I don't think they paid ( $15 tbr anymore than a single delivery at home. Then of course we'd have the practical nurse for ten days but she only charged a dollar a day. B.B.: What was her job? R.C.: Well everything, not just nursing. She kept house. She had everything to do, same as the mother was up and going. B.B.: She would be there twenty-four hours a day? R.C.: Oh, yeah. Of course, I don't think I ever got the nurse up. I usqally looked after my own babies at night. Oh, I suppose if they cried too much but I don't remel'!lber any of them crying much in the night. I'd always have them in the bed with me and I'd nurse them and looked after my own. B.B.: We'd been talking about the Depression a little earlier. If a Depression ever did come again how do you see people being able to survive? R.C.: That, I just can't even forsee. I, there's too many of the young people that wouldn't have a clue to going about doing things. Carol, my daughter Carol was there in ( was. My water was all froze up. '7 7 For instance, when that bad blizzard So I melted snow. I melted snow because, then I had a bathroom for years I didn't have a bathroom, we had the outside toilet. And it was after Dave was gone the boys built, put a piece on and I had a bathroom. Well the first'ijintet I had it, it froze up, everything froze up and so I got a little snow to flush the toilet and for, not for drinking or anything like that, but had to carry the water for that. But anyway my daughter was down from Toronto and she had her friend with her, but her friend was a city boy, and she said if anything happened, she said he wouldn't have a clue what to do and then she called him by name and said, " Would ya", and he said, "No, he wouldn't even think of melting snow." And this is just a for instance. I mean there's an awful lot that would never even think of doing something like that. never had to. They We've had an area of, of a lots of money and kids never wanted for anything from there on and oh, well they didn't see any reason for economizing or making things do, or patching clothes or canning fruit or any of the rest of it. ( I canned about 75, We did all our canning . 80 quarts of tomatoes in the summertime. family of nine children and people gave me clothes. I had a I made everything from moccasins for the little folks on the floor to, I took my husbands 11 �wool underwear, it use to be a ribbed underwear ••• course sort· of ••• they don't wear things like that now either, but then they did, be was an ( outside man, be worked in all types of weather and I dyed them. The first winter when my twin boy was on the floor, the one that could walk, I dyed them, I dyed ibe suit blue and the other one red, and I made him short pants and a like a T-shirt, a jersey, and I embroidered a blanket stitch around the collar and that's whata he wore the first winter to keep him warm while he was on the floor. B.B.: How did you dye it? R.C.: Well, we bought dye that you boiled, not Rit it was the other, I can't think of the name of it ••• when I want to think of things I can't my mind ••• sits do wn on me. B.B.: You made moccasins. How? R.C.: Somebody gave my husband a sheep-lined vest, the wool, sheep wool. So I took that apart, he didn't wear·it, so I took that apart and made moccasins out of it. The first pair I made the child couldn't get his foot in it, the sheeps wool was too thick, so I took it apart again and took the wool, just left some on it, sewed them together again, fit fine. B.B.: ( Did you se w them by hand? R.C.: U-uhm. I made coats and hats and ••• I made about everything there was to be made. B.B.: Did you sew them all by hand2 R.C.: No, I had a sewing machine, a peddle machine, I didn't have one electric.: We didn't have electric then, we had gas. Gas lights and the trains would shake our mantles off when the trains, we lived right by the railroad, and the trains would shake our mantles off, we would buy a new mantle and have beautiful lights and in a day or so they'd drop off the side and hang there again, a light would be so poor. B.B.: What is a mantle? R.C.: That was what we'd have to put on, on the gas, oh, it look like knit, I don't know what it was made of, something that didn't burn up. But the shaking of the train would, it would break off there at the top, it would hang. B.B.: What about the ••• you went through two World Wars ••• ? R.C.: I was just young yet, the 1st World, War. I don't remember things get ting as bad, things weren't rationed 1st World War like it was the 2nd World War. B.B.: Things weren't quite as bad as it was the second time. How were they bad in the 2nd World War? 12 �R.C.: Well, things were rationed, but ter was rationed, sugar was rationed, gas was rationed. ( B.B.: How much was it rationed? R.C.: Well, you had to have tickets, you had books of tickets and you were just allowed so much each week, you couldn't go and get what you wanted, you were just allowed so much. I didn't have any trouble with the butter because we had our own cow, and she was only seasonal, you know she'd go dry, so I just didn't. Of course, I'd save my ration tickets from when I had but ter until when she was dry and I didn't have but ter so that they I could manage. B.B.: Could you describe the process of making the butter? R.C.: Well, we had separater, which separated the cream from the milk. You turned the handle, we had that to wash everyday too, the separater, and then you let your cream sour, you don't leave it long enough to get ransid you just leave it long enough to sour and then we'd put in in the churn, this dash-churn, you'd have to ••• when the cow was first fresh the butter would come quickly, it didn't take much, but when she got old milking, just before she'd go dry and have another calf you could hardly get the butter to come. You'd churn and churn for maybe an ( hour and a half before you'd get it. But it was good butter. butter! It got to be pretty monotonize. We had a jersey cow and it was really good And of course we had the but termilk. Some of the children liked the buttermilk to drink and some of our neighbours liked the but ter milk to drink, too. What we didn't drink or use up we gave to the pigs, the milk, the separated milk we gave to the pigs. Always kept fresh milk out for the children, I never gave them the separated milk. Now they buy skim milk. It's not even as good as that milk was, that was just separated but now they add water to it. That's awful stuff that skim milk! difference. If I hadn't had my own one day I guess I wouldn't know the People don't know the difference. What they don't know don't hurt them. B.B.: We don't know what we are missing. R.C.: But when you had your own it kind of spoils you. B.B.: What about refrigeration R.C.: Oh, I didn't have any refrig ••• ? ••• not even an i•ce box when I had my children. I had to boil formula twice a day. ( B.B.: How:did you keep your meat? R.C.: Oh, we didn't buy meat. I had to raise them the hard way. Our pigs, you see we'd butcher pigs in the fall Oh, it wouldn't be in the fall, sometimes he butchered on New Years 13 �Day. It depended on the weather. If the weather set in, was really cold why we butchered earlier but if we had warmer weather, because we didn't have any refrigeration ( ••• but he salted all his meat down, put it in the barrel with salt. Salt bririe, so it would hold an egg. B.B.: What do you mean? R.C.: Well, you put an egg in and if it came up to the top and showed, you know it wouldn't sink, it would float on top and show the egg about the size of that, that was strong enough and he'd have his meat packed in a barrel and he'd pour that brire on it, fill the barrel up with brine. B.B.: How long would that keep the meat? R.C.: About six weeks he would leave it in and then he would take it out and we would smoke it. He'd take it out and hang it for about a week and then it would be dry, good and dry and then we'd smoke it. We had a smoke house and that was usually my job. B.B.: Describe your job and the smoke house? R.C.: Well the smoke house looked almost like the toilet, it wasn't much bigger, a bit, not as tall and wider. And it had a bar across, sometimes two bars depends on how much meat you had. And we had meat hooks, steel meat hooks that we hung it up with and then I usually used an old tub, a big tub and I didn't let it burn, the wood burn you had to keep sawdust ( or shavings or something on it that would smoulder. Or you usually had a bag of sawdust and if did burn up through I'd have the sawdust on and that would sort of smother it your know. You'd have the fire underneath so you'd put something on top so it wouldn't blaze but it would smoke. The more smoke you could make the bet ter it was. I forget how many days we would smoke, five or six days I guess. B.B.: What did that do to the meat?. R.C.: That saves it. And I had bags, feed bags that I bought, not the big course ones but cot ton ones and put the bags over it and tied it shut so the flies wouldn't get at it after it smoked and hang it in the cellar. B.B.: How did you do your washing? R.C.: Well, when I had four girls I washed by hand, washboard. And then when I had, just before I had the twins, I got a washing machine, a hand washing machine that I ••• you washed more clothes with the strength you used you know, that took a lot of strength. Sometimes I thought I would rather do it by hand but then you'd get along faster and then I had the ( hand wringer too so I could wring them out. I didn't have to wring them by hand. And when did I get my gasoline one ••• I guess I got thegasoline one in between the twins and when Kim came. When I had the twins 14 �I had six children and when I had Ken and I hadKen and John during the Depression. They were just sixteen months apart. And then I got the machine with the gasoline holder, it was like aelectric machine except it had gasoline holder underneath, it was fastened to.the frame underneath and I had a foot crank to crank it, you had to crank it like a Model A Ford or the Model T's rather. Well we cranked our Model T or Model A Ford too, the first one we had. We had to crank that. And it use to backfire and I was sure I had to get my foot over the bumper so that I could reach it to crank it, 'cause I was too short to pull it up if I didn't get close by and yet it would backfire and I'd have to get away in a hurry or I'd get my leg broke. Quite a few people got wrists broke and then their leg broken, you know get wacked with that...oh, it'd come back with an awful force when it backfired if you didn't get your cranked pulled out far enough. And then the second Model A that they got, it was a self starter. That I appreciated very much, that and the washing machine. that! And then when we got the electric in I sure was happy over No more having to crank that over. B.B.: R.C: Yes, by that time there were. B.B.: Where did...did they run by gas? R.C.: • 1 Were there many people who had cars? Yes, they ran by gas but they had carbide lights, the first ones. Never any that Dave had. They were before that yet. B.B.: What are carbide lights? R.C.: Oh, I can't tell ya, I can't explain it. Carbide is something, I think they �n-batteries if I'm not mistaken, I might be wrong but I think that' s wha :.t the carbide is. B.B.: Where would you get your gas? R.C.: Well, there were gas stations where you'd get your gas. Not numerous like they are now. B.B.: Where were they located in Stevensville? R.C.: Right there by the railroad, right there by the creek there where Keith Winger is now. I think that was the first and only one, that was around for years. B.B.: Where they in pumps like we see now? R.C.: Not the automatic ones like they are now. Stevensville didn't have any electric either, it was years before, but I can't tell you what year ( they got electric in Stevensville. B.B.: Why were they so late in getting electric? 15 �R.C.: Well, they would have had to bring the electric up from the Falls. They had to put all those poles in and string all that wire. Ridgeway ( was on Niagara, Canadian Niagara, and I don't know which way that came, I don't know if it came on up Stevensville we had hydro in ••• Stevensville at that time. Their on Canadian Niagara, too, now. B.B.: Do you remember what year the hydro came in? R.C.: No, I don't remember the year that it came to Stevensville. Of course we didn't get it up there wahere we until my John was two years old, he was born in 1936 so it was 1938 when we got it, up through the country there where we were. There were quite a few that run through:the different places in the country that were getting it but you had to get so many subscribers before you'd get it, so many that would take electric v before they'd bring it up. Sure was a happy day when it came! I think I appreciated the electric more than anything. B.B.: The township was Bertie Township, do you remember anything of where that was located, where they had council meetings or anything in that way. R.C.: I think they had council meetings mostly in Fort Erie if I'm not mistaken. They could have had some here in Ridgeway but I think, I think Fort ( Erie was the, where the council meetings were. Fort Erie was in Bertie Township, all this area. The townline which now is Netherby Road that was between and Bertie, that was the town .•. .•. and then up farther it was between Humbersone, no Humberston run the other way, it was between Crowland and Bertie. And then of course Humberston was divided, I can't tell you where that road is, I can't explain it to you if you don't know the area, I can't very well explain it to you. But Bertie was a big township, 'cause it took in the three big corner here. And Wainfleet was a big township. Willouby, some of them weren't quite so big. B.B.: Did you notice a change when it switched from the township. R.C.: Not personally, no. I , maybe the businessmen or some of the others might have noticed but I didn't. Personally I didn't notice the difference. Only I didn't want them to change Stevensville and name it Fort Erie. Now they have Stevensville, and Fort Erie on the signs. They wanted to make it all Fort Erie 'cause they call it Greater Fort Erie, you see, ( and they wanted to change it, they wanted to abolish all these names, Ridgeway, Stevensville but the businessmen wouldn't hold still for that and I'm happy they didn't. I said as long as Llyod Wale lives I don't think they'll change it. So, I don't know if there's anything else... Fort Erie 16 �was, or Bridgeburg was a railroad town, that was the most of the, there was no Fleet and a lot of those busnesses weren't there then. ( And there was a big round house there in Fort Erie just off of Phipp Street, where you go in on Phipp was the west end there. B.B.: A round house ? R.C.: Where they mended the er:igines, where they were repaired and they ..• had a turn table, they put the engine, drive the engine on there and turn it around so it'd go back the other way. I think that was run by hand, the first long before they got electric. When my aunt lived in Fort Erie I don't think they had electric yet and that was oh way back quite awhile ago •.. ! can't remember what year that would be, I was a small girl yet, anyway. That left a big hole there. I think, which factory is built there where the long house was the west end of Phipp .•• Fort Erie? Do you? the one there on Phipp Street, .•• I can't remember what it is? Do you live in Well you should know what plant it is on the west end of Phipp Street. B.B.: I know the plant you are speaking of but my ..• R.C.: I can't remember what the name of it is. Over on Jarvis is the pharaceutical my son works there, one of my sons Ken. ( immensely since those days back there! But oh, Fort Erie has grown We use to drive to Fort Erie the road came down and it 'cross , came cattleways across the railroads and it was the Bowen Road that's where the old Bowen Road, that street is, Bowen, that ran straight up through and .•• B.B.: Straight up through where...? R.C.: Up where the golf liks is now. It went straight up through there. do you know where Pettit Road is, up the Bowen Road And and over when you're going down, over to the right, or to the left, there was a school house. !guess it's gone there now ••. and that's where the Bowen Road went down past that school house and cut straight down through and met an Bowen Street, they call it Bowen Road don't they, they call it the Old Bowen Road, ya. It joined on to that. And I was scared to death to go over the railroad there because it was on a slant and there were two railroads there right together, Canadian National that was theG'rand-Trun.Ck- �hJHh the Michigan Central and there was lots of trains in them days! Didn't have any buses, didn't have any trucks, you know these big transport trucks, wasn't any of them on the roads. ( B.B.: Do you remember the opening of the Peace Bridge? R.C.: Oh, yes! I was married then and my husband bought his grandfather's 17 �house and that was the one we moved into in 1913, when we came back� you know when I said my mother was in Markam, we moved into that house and then we were there for a year or so and then we moved to ( another place and ended up by the church where the parsonage is now. We lived up there for eight years. That was the longest we Hived in any place. Any way, what was I saying .•• ? B.B.: About the Peace Bridge? R.C.: Oh, yes I think that was in 1924 it was opened wasn't it? B.B.: '27 I believe. R.C.: '27? I thought it was when my old or second child was just a baby. I might be wrong on that but I thought that's when it was, when the Prince of Wales came over, he cut the ribbon. B.B.: Were you there? R.C.: No. I wanted to go so bad, I just couldn't stand it to think I couldn't . go. My husband wasn't as enthusiastic about it as I was. Said you 'M>Uldn't get anywhere near it, you wouldn't see it anyway. B.B.: Do you remember your first time driving over the bridge once it opened? R.C.: No I don't remember that but it was years before I got a chance to go across on the Peace Bridge. I don't know if I'd been over on the car before 1945 when I took treatment over in Buffalo for cancer, I had ( a cancer operation and took treatment in Buffalo. And I'd drive to Fort Erie myself, that's why I didn't go to Hamilton. We had the Model A Ford at that time and I just thought it was too big of an undertaking to drive to Hamilton myself andDave would have to take a day off, and we could hardly afford that so I drove to Fort Erie and go across on the bus. And take a street car to General Hospital. B.B.: What type of treatment? R.C.: They called it X-ray treatment. B.B.: Can you see between the village of Stevensville, and Bridgeburg, Fort Erie was there a big difference between them as you compare the way life may be in the village...'1> R.C.: Yes,theyhad facilities that Stevensville didn't havP-,. for years. I don't know. Aunt Esther had a bathroom. They became a electric. 'Cause Aunt Esther had a bathroom •. Those old bathrooms were something too they were so different from what they have now. B.B.: ( Describe them. R.C.: Well the tank that you have behind your toilet hung up on the wall up here • . I think you might find some of them in Toronto yet if you get into some of them old, old places. Because when Evelyn lived on Church 18 �Street they had that sort of a bathroom there, they were something. Aunt Esther may have had electric I'm not sure about that. ( She did have a bathroom so they must have had electric and I don't know they may have had septic tanks, I can't tell you that. But they had water, they had water to flush so they must have had electric. Anyway they were clumsy looking things but it was better than going outside. In the winter time it'd get so cold you'd forget what you went for. And then the electric lights, when I first went to Aunt Esther's in 1918 to work in Welland they only just had a µill cord light they didn't have things the way it is now. They just had you switched it on you know and the bulb, the bulbs were nothing like they are now, they were so you could see the wires inside of them and they were well they weren't big bulbs like thE.y are, they didn't have the watts that they have now. So they couldn't have had the power or something, I really don't know, t a about that. But I rem ember o d light she had there in the kitchen � 1J in Welland and they just had the pull cords in the bedrooms and everything too. And that's all, well we didn't have any in the kitchen but we had in the bedrooms upstairs, we just had the lights in the ceiling, to turn them on separately. We didn't have any outlets. When we got the electric ( I was satisfied to have that much. I didn't insist on a lot of outlets. I had one in the kitchen and for the washing machine and that was it. B.B.: What about the telephone...when did that come,'?to Stevensville? R.C.: They had telephones, they had telephones back in 1912. I remember Emerson phoned over to my grandfather to say my father was gone. They had telephones back in 1907 when my twin brother and sister were born. 'Cause granddad sent my mother over here on the train and she called from Stevensville to her brother to come and get her so we had phones then, so I don't know, I don't remember when they got the phones. B.B.: R.C.: Did you have a phone in your home? . No. We din't have a phone in our home until we moved up across the road from the church there, which is the parsonage now. They thought we were so far from the town, so far from the doctor and everything that they put the phone in. That was mother's relatives that did that too. B.B.: Where was the phone located before you had one in your home that you would go use? ( R.C.: There was many close by up there. B.B.: When they contacted you about your dad what phone did they use then? 19 �R.C.: ( Well it W§J.8 called Welland County, it was Welland County System ; it wasn't Bell. It was years later that Bell bought out Welland County. B.B.: Where was the office located in Stevensville? R.C.:Well, the central office was ••. I don't know where it was before Uncle Andrew Saylor had it. My mothers aunt and uncle had the central office and at the first over, when you go to Stevensville, Alvin Siders live there now, the first house over the railroad , the Canadian National Railroad, to your right. There was a big window in the front and that room was the telephone office. Alvin has taken the hall out, you came into the front door and there was a hall and you came into the front office and on into the rest part of the house. But Alvin took that hall out of there and the doer opens out doors now from the living room. He made the living room bigger. That's their living room or their, ya their living room. That's where the telephone office was for years, I can't tell you how many years. And where did it go from there, then? I can't think where it went from there or whether when Uncle Andrews quit, I guess thenWhen it went up to Wades then and they had it in the part that Coleman-Wades Tailor Shop. He made suits, men suits and he was gone then by that time and so they used that front part for ( a telephone office. And it was there until we went dial and they built the, they've got a building out north of Stevensville, brick building now. But the telephone office was at Wades until they went dial. B.B.: Is there anything else that you R.C.: Not that I can think of. Unless there was some questions you had to ••• has you reflect back? ask. B.B.: You've done fine. R.C.: They use to have what they call the Dummy which they ran across the bridge to go tm Buffalo. I think that ran befor the ferry ran maybe I don't know for sure. B.B.: Oh, tell me about the Dummy. R.C.: Well, it was all in one, like a street car, only it was run by battery I suppose it is •.. what did they use to, what did they call it, I can't say what generator, it may of been, I don't know. In ·early days they even .•. had I don't think that was ever run by steam though, I can't vision that being run by steam so I think that was generator, that generated ( their own power, the wheels ran, and the generator. B.B.: Where did you pick the Dummy up? Where did it run from? 20 �R.C.: Right there at Fort Erie where the station is, and it just went to Black Rock and back again, it ran back and forth ever so often. Was it used ( B.B.: Was it used quite ? R.C.: Oh, yes. B.B.: How much did it cost? R.C.: Oh, I wouldn't have any idea anymore. I suppose maybe 1 0 cents to go ••• across the river. But money was worth a lot more in those days than it is now. A dime don't amount to much now anymore. Yes, I drove back and forth on the Dummy quite a bit. I don't know why it got its name Dummy unless because it wasn't steam engine, you know it wasn't pulled by an engine, it generated its own power. Then they got the ferry, I don't remember when the ferry started, I don't remember when . that service started, but then they carried cars across, the ferry. B ut . I think maybe the ferry was in operation even before cars began to come around I don't know for sure. Uncle Emerson .•• they drove the horse and team, the horses and the surrey, you know the two seater with the top and it had side curtains so if it rained you put those side curtainsdown, they drove to Ohio. My Uncle Emerson, my mother's brother was married to a lady from Ohio, Aunt Franny, and they'd drive there maybe once a year for a reunion. And they went across with the ferry so it's back 0 quite a ways, I don't know. But I think the Dummy was first if I'm not mistaken, I think the Dummy was first. BBut whether they maybe ran, maybe the ferry ran a bigger boat before the even built the International Bridge, I don't have any idea when that was built. B.B.: Well, Mrs. Carver thank you. You've given some very interesting information. R.C.: Well, there's lots of things I guess I missed but B.B.: Can you think of anything out there R.C.: No, I can't think of anything. I can just see Fort Erie when it was Bridgeburg .•• ..• ? and it was so much smaller than it is now. It has really, really grown now ! B.B.: Thank you. 21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Beverly Branton Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ruth Carver Location The location of the interview. Ridgewood Manor, Ridgeway Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Carver, Ruth Description An account of the resource Provided here is a transcript of Ruth Carver's interview. She discusses topics such as: Technology Stevensville Recreation Churches Schools Stores and businesses Crescent Park Railroad The Depression Blizzard of '77 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 1985 1930s 1980s 1985 Blizzard of '77 churches Oral history railroad recreation ridgeway schools stevensville stores and businesses technology transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/8ccc20ea677069d22f0ca6dd02de23d7.pdf 4771d6ea9fca48420a11674ffd171f9f PDF Text Text Michael Near interviewing Mrs. Avis Benner, at her home at 2530 Bowen Rd . .( M.N: A.B: M.N: A.B: M.N: A.B: Avis, were you born in the Fort Erie area ? Yes, it was the Bertie Township then though. And that was right on the Bowen Rd. at home ? Right on Bowen Rd. at home. That was a farm ? A farm, it was just a acre of land the farm was on another road. Just an acre there, the farm. M.N: Your Mom and Dad had been out there for a while though, hadn't they A.B: M.N: A.B: Yes. Had they come from this area ? Yes, Mother was from right on Ridgemount, just a little ways from our place, in fact were I was born that land belonged to my Grand­ mother and gave it to Mom and Dad when they were married and they built a house there. M.N: ( Both sides of your family go back into the .... , quite aways into Fort Erie history. A.B: Yes, my Father was from the Garrison Rd. area. His home was on the Garrison Rd. M.N: Did you notice a big difference from living say on a farm then living actualy living in town? A.B: M.N: A.B: I didn't like it in town. Why was that ? I only lived there about a year, and then we moved out to Cresent, after we was married, but I didn't like it in town. A.B: And now I'm back on the farm. M. N: When did you notice the biggest difference from now, say from living on the farm from when you were a girl and now ? A.B: Oh, it was all horses when I was a girl and now it's tractors and big machinery and even the milking parlours, milking, it's all different, but it's still work. M.N: Dld your dad use horses? A.B: He did all his work with horses. M.N: Did he ever have a tractor? A.B: Just towards the last, but it was all he did it, then my brothers took over and then they got the bailers and combines. He did this with horses. 1 �M.N: ( A.B: What time period would that be, when he shifted to the tractor ? I don't know. I was trying to think. It was in the late forties, in the forties. M.N: Was the conditions alot tougher then, do you believe - economically A.B: Oh, maybe on the farm, it all depends on the farming your in now the last few years crop farming has been bad but then the milking you have the cows, the dairy herds, why if you have that, that's better, you get a lot more for that, the milk that part is a lot better. M.N: The farms were alot smaller then ? A.B: Yes, they cover more acres now, they cover more acres and they have more cows. They don't milk by hand then we- they milked by hand. They was just getting the milkers in, at first they just by hand. M.N: Was there more farmers then ? A.B: More that actually farmed around all the land around here was farmed, everybody farmed, now some of them they don't farm,but around this area it stayed about the same, some of it isn't. M.N: Which school did you go to ? A.B: Number 6, Bertie on Ridgemount Road and the school I went to ( was a one room school With,-it's been gone since they built the new one. Iwas 12 when they built the new one. I didn't go to it, I went to high school in Fort Erie but that one burnt down they closed that one down. M.N: How many kids in a one room school house ? A.B: Oh, anyweres from, in this one here 28-35, the teacher had the whole class, all the grades and the older ones helped the younger ones. You got your work done. If someone was having trouble, if you could do it you helped them, did work on blackboard. M.N: Did you have to go to High School, were would you go, Fort Erie? A.B: I went to Fort Erie then there was one continuation school in Stevensville but we had to find our own transportation and at Fort Erie had to pay for our own way there. No bussing, nothing like that. 2 �( A.B: They don't-we had to make our own fun and entertainment, now they want it all handed to them, if they had to shovel snow, to skate they won't skate, they want someone to do all that. There missing out on alot. When they get out they don't know how to make there own fun. M.N: I"m going to skip over to work or World War 2. M.N: Did you notice. What did you notice about World War 2, the effect say upon your life? A.B: Well, I guess it was like any other war, you worried, you had friends and relatives that were in the services and you worried about them. You were rationed but you made due with what you could get, but you knew it was for the best. M.N: How did you feel about the Germans and Japanese ? A.B: They were just our enemies . There was lots of people of German descent around, we didn't bear any hard feelings towards them at all, as far as we were concerned, I was-they were-the ones we were against were the ones that were over there, not the ones that had been here. Just because there parents were German ( or something-it didn't- myself it didn't bother. M.N: Was there some people it did bother ? A.B: No, not that I know of, none that I know, there probably was , none that I know of held a grudge that way. M.N: Rationing was one of the biggest factors ? A.B: Rationing was one of the biggest, we didn't starve , we had plenty, you had to maybe conserve on one thing and that, but, if you had alot of it and your nieghbours didn;t, you just. . . . .. . M.N: . What was the biggest thing you noticed about rationing, what was the biggest article that was short? A.B: There was no article that bothered me, I wasn't actualy suffering or short of anything really one more than others. I just watched. We just watched what we had. There was only the two of us. M.N: Do you think the people on the farm had a advantage over the town people in food supply ? A.B: ( Not really, because it was like-butter or sugar that was rationed, with the sugar, why they needed, in fact they would use more, they were more inclined to do there own baking and canning, there were alot of people in town didn't do canning that they did on farms 3 �( A.B: so they would use more sugar then some of the people in town. And now-maybe the odd one then would make there own butter but if they had to they could, very few did. M.N: Was that done in a hand churn or was there a machine to do that A.B: Oh, you mean on the farm M.N: Yes A.B: It was a hand churn. I remember they have-you can get attach­ ments to your electrical things. You can make butter now, but then it was all-when we made it. M.N: Did you feel pride in the service men ? Going off to fight the Germans and the Japanese ? A.B: Oh, yes, yes even those, there was some that was stationed around here at Niagara Falls, at the power station, even those-they, the odd time, they do some things that maybe they shouldn't, they get in trouble, you were still thankfull they were there to protect that stuff. M.N: When the War ended did you notice a change in the attitude of the people, did things change in the Fort Erie area, say Ridgeway ( Stevensville, was there a difference between then, say before the war ? A.B: Well, there was alot as far in this area, with the Fleet there was a lot more money in the area, during the war and right after, then what there was before but as things died down and the men came back why jobs were geting scarcer but no I didn't see that much difference, actualy a different pace pace as far as living, the price of things was higher and they just kept going up but that was-but during the war at one time wages was froze, they could'nt raise the wages. M.N: I'll shift a little bit till after the war, the communist started making big exspansions then, right after the war and it went through some hard times, like in the 50's the cold war. Was there any, what was the feelings about the communist ? Were the communist alien to this area? Did people really no what the communist were doing? Were they considered dangerous at that time ? During the war ( or before the war ? A.B: Just what we would read more in the paper any actualy being here, I didn't know any of those you know any, but you read it in the paper or hear it on the radio you would take a dim view of it. 4 �A.B: ( You wouldn't like what they were doing or what you heard but to have any that was active ones right around here I didn't know of any of those. I certainaly didn't like what they were doing. M.N: There was alot of people who came into the area during the war and after the war, immigrants and things like that did that make a big change ? A.B: Well, it built up in the, in what was then Fort Erie it didn�t: affect out were we were because it was farms were we are right now, out in Crescent were we lived, that built up but its built up more since we left, it's really built up now, when we left there wasn't that much. M. N: So you see abig difference in the Cresent Park area? A.B: Now, then what there was then when we were out there, oh yes. M.N: Just housitng ? A.B: Housing and streets have opened up that wasn't opened up but now its all built up, theres differe'nt streets opened up that well like on our own street there was only maybe 6 houses. When we first went out there was 3 on our side. When we left some of it ( had built up, it started to build up but now its all built up. And the farm that Ernie's father had on the corner, its not there any more, its all sub-division and all that. The ground here the farming area it hasn't built up well, right now you can't build on a farm land, they won't let you severance, you have to severance a lot. M.N: Thats the Green Belt Law isn't it ? A.B: I don't know what it is, its for agriculture even now, one time it was 25 acres but you don't need that now but you can't severance if its farming, its an awful job, even if its just a lot to build on yourself. M.N: How does that work ? A.B: They just won't let you severance it. M.N: How does that compare with years ago when the family would break off a lot, do you agree with that ? A.B: I think if you own your farm and I want to give my son or daughter a lot to build on you should be able to do it. M.N: ( The Regional Government thats taken over the Niagara Peninsula do you notice abig difference in the attitude of the way you lived back in the forties when there was a lot smaller population and you knew a lot more people and now it seems you have lost touch with local government ? 5 �A.B: Oh, the local government is altogether different, you have lost touch. You go to them - you've got to go to some o ne else an d t hen up higher , they don't seem to have much regional, authority, it's more its region al only time you want to do anything ; a permit to do this, a permit to do that or any other thing . _ M .N: People have mentioned to me, for example when Herb Guess was M ayor you could go to him more personally and he would listen to your problems and you could deal more e f fectifly on a more personal level then you could now. Do you think thats true ? A.B: You can go to them now but I don't think they listen and to do anything like they used to and of course we notice the difference when it all became Fort Erie- like here-Bertie Township, now it seems everything goes that way. They don't- it isn't equalized. As far as I'm concerned they want you to be Fort Erie but yet your classed as Ridgeway or Crystal Beach when it comes to your mail if you put Fort Erie on your mail they won't deliver, although you are in Fort Erie because when I was on court duty I told them what about living- the address was Stevensville but it was all Fort Erie and they put it Fort Erie. As far as they were concerned it was all Fort Erie. M.N: Did you, when you were agirl living out in this area, did you consider your-self separte from Fort Erie , it was another towp, you would visit, you didn't consider your-self part of that. A.B: No, we wasn't part of Fort Erie, even when we went from here to High School you weren't part of Fort Erie you were Bertie Town­ ship but you went to the Fort Erie High School. M.N: Do you remember A.B: It was B ridgeburg Bridgeburg? when I went to High School. It wasn't Fort Erie H igh School it was lkidgeburg High School. M.N: 13 ridgeburg A.B: Bridgeburg. M.N: There was other sections of town at that time? A.B: Amigari and Fort Erie M.N: At that time what would you say was Fort Erie if I asked you at High School ? that time ? A.B: The South End you would just class as Fort Erie, this end was Bridgeburg. M.N: You must have used the ferry? 6 �( A.B: Oh, yes. M.N: How much was it on the ferry A.B: To go across to Buffalo ? It has been so long ago I forget, it was'nt much. M.N: Was it a good ride ? A.B: It was a good ride if you didn't get seasick. M.N: Is that right, could it be rough at times ? A.B: Oh, yes. M.N: What did they do in the winter time when the ice was in the river ? A.B: You went across on the dummy. M.N: Oh is that right, they had a passenger service? A.B: Yes you didn't have to go to Buffalo-you could go by train over M.N: Did you notice a big difference when the Peace Bridge was built A.B: Oh, yes, traffic, and of course-you had to-when the boat was going to Black Rock. You could go by dummy or by the boat. they were lined up to go back on Sundays and sometimes on Saturday. We had a lot of Americans coming over even then and they were lined up to go back you had to be there or wait for the next ferry to come. ( When the Peace Bridge opened you didn't have that. When the Peace Bridge opened you didn;t have that, eventually the boat quit it did'nt go anymore. M.N: At that time what was your impression of the South End was it a nice section, was there a lot taverns down there then ? A.B: We didn't go to the South End much, the main shopping area was the North End and that's were we went. M.N: That would have been classified as Bridgeburg ? A.B: Bridgeburg. M.N: So Jarvis St. was more a commercial area were you went for groceries or food stuffs ? A.B: It was all stores, different stores - now what it was like early, when I was small we did all our shopping in Stevensville. We didn't shop to much in Fort Erie mainly because it was hard to get to, we didn't have a car when I was small, reall small and we used to do our shopping in Stevensville and we still continue, we did our bank- ( ing and groceries. M.N: What was available in Stevensville, a general store ? 7 �A.B: Two general stores, one had dry goods in it, groceries, the other one had shoes and you could get almost anything, there was a ( hardware store and a hotel and two barbershops and a implement shop, a shoe store. M.N: Was Stevensville bigger, then it is now A.B: It was just the main street and a, we used to say one railroad crossing to the other, if you cross one or the other you were out of the main part of Stevensville, there was a main street there and the main street - the one store was on main street they call it Main Street now but the Post Office was on what is called Stevensville Road now. M.N: How often would you go to Stevensville to shop ? A.B: Oh, we'd go on Saturday night. M.N: Saturday night ? A.B: We went Saturday night that was people would meet and visit the men would go to the barber shop, and have a good visit, a shave, if they needed a haircut they get that, get the groceries then we would head for home. ( M.N: Would this be a outing in a sense ? A.B: Yes that would be an outing, in the winter maybe we did;nt the men would go and get the grocerie�, if it was nasty we wouldn't go and get -that was our outing. M.N: And that would be people from this area ? A.B: It owuld be this area and up the other - like, this side of Stevens­ ville up towards Welland, they would come and do there shopping. M.N: I noticed just down on the corner of Bowen and Ridgemount theres a quarry, has htat quarry been there a long time? Thats Walkers quarry I believe. A.B: Its Walkers now then it was - belonged to the - its been there a long time , it belonged to Bertie Township and my Dad ran it for a while. M.N: A.B: And then . . . . . .. M.N: That would be Charles Spear ? A.B: ( Oh, did he really ? Senior. A.B: Yes, he ran that for awhile. M.N: Would they supply stone for roadways ? A.B: For the roads around here, they crush the stone and they started up when Cresent Park started up. 8 �A.B: ( They supplied stone for up in there, when it first started and all these Township roads and repair-the quarry- they got stone from there, different ones, the teamsters. M;N: Hofise land wagon ? A.B: Yes, horse and wagon. Thats how they-then they went to trucks. M.N: Then Walkers bought them out ? A.B: Plyly, had that one, no, he went up farther, Campbells bought it and then Walkers bought it from him. M.N: So that was a small industry for the area ? A.B: Yes, well thats, well theres, when I was small it was one-it wasn't a small industry it was the only one around except for farming, right close here, there was a lot of teams at that time. M.N: At this time, I know this was an influence, did you have a radio ? A.B: Yes, we had a radio, the first radio we had, had those horns, like on a Victrolla. M.N: Gramaphone ? A.B: And that was, oh maybe sixty years ago. M.N: Did that become i important source say as important as the T.V. ( is to us now ? A.B: Oh, yes but you didn't get that much on it, we'd get news and that. There be programs on you'd listen for . M.N: Did you have favorite programs ? A.B: Then it was Maggie and Jiggs, that goes a long way back, that was one they used to like, thats what I say there wasn't a lot of stations on but a. . .. M.N: Were did you get most of the stations from, Buffalo ? A.B: Yes, thats- I think it would be I was to young to remember that, it was just this thing that music came out of and peoples voices came out of and thats what. . . . M.N: When the radio became accepted, like the television we have now did you look for certain programs ? A.B: Oh yes, and especialy hockey games, Saturday hockey games that was it, but then the radios started to get more stations like you can now, there would be certain programs and now they have soapoperas that are on television then they was on radio. ( M.N: Oh, really ? A.B: You followed them, of course I was older then certain times of the day they were on radio just like on T. V.. In fact when they first started on T. V. it was some of the soap operas that you would have on radio 9 �( M.N: Theres men like Milton Berle and Red Skelton they carried over from radio into television is it basically the same thing, they just sort of shifted? A.B: Yes. M.N: Do you remember getting your first television? A.B: I think we was on Orchard Ave. Ellen was small, about forty years ago. It was a small one, the cabinet was wook, and it was heavy but we got a real clear picture, and R. C. A. M.N: How many stations could you get? A.B: Then it was your Buffalo stations. You had to have a special areial to get the Toronto stations, it was mainly Buffalo stations. M.N: Do you think with our increasing communications, television and satellites do you think its better now, do you think we have a better understanding of what's going on in the outer world than we did before? A.B: Oh yes, you get news from the other countries and that you didn't before - that part - you get more from the newspaper than what you used to, it was more local news, like here, you get more news with the television and the radio. M.N: I'm going to jump again, inthe early 30's when Prohibition was going strong in the U. S. did you remember about that time in this area, was it an effect on the area? A.B: Not that I know in this area, not that I know personally. M.N: I mentioned it because Fort Erie has a strong connection with that time? A.B: Fort Erie that its self out here in Bertie Township, I didn't come in contact with that and I know there was a lot of it in Fort Erie but where and all who were involved I don't know, it didn't effect me because, we weren't used to it at home. M.N: This is a quiet area? A.B: Well I wouldn't say it was that, at home we didn't - we made our o wn fun, we had house dances and card parties, we played cards you went out. M.N: ( Yo u stuck pretty close to this area? HOw often would you go out? A.B: You mean how often would we have dances? 10 �( A�B:: If you wanted to you could go to a dance or a card party every week. M.N: Were would they hold them ? A.B: They would hold them, like the dances they would hold in the homes; the same with the card parties in different homes, from home to home, right here in Stevensville they had a hall that they would hold dances, it was above Spear's garage, Spears garage is still there but they don't use the hall. There was two halls the other one they called Litchenbergers hall, if they wanted to put on a play or anything big they would go there. They used to put on plays like they do now. The church groups would put on suppers, there was quite a few suppers they would put on, Church groups would put on suppers to raise money. M.N: A.B: Oh, square dance. M.N: That was a popular style ? A.B: ( What kind of music was popular When I was young it was square dancing. M:N: When the big bands came in did you notice that change in the music was that a popular music ? A.B: Well then the square dance music in the homes-people started to go to other places and you didn't have the square dances, you don't have them now like they did in the homes, when I was small thats were they held them, and of course in the summer we used to go to Crystal Beach thats were we would hear the big bands. The dance floor was really popular. M.N: What was Crystal Beach like then ? Was it nice ? A.B: Oh yes, you could go and spend all day there; just walking around we used to go at nights when the bands were there; just to listen to them, you didn't have to pay to go to watch the bands; and they would have different bands you would go and watch them they used to come over from the States on the boat; the' bdat docked up there. M.N: A.B: ( Would that be the Canadiana ? Yes, and they come across, it was a big thing to watch the boat come in and Erie Beach , we used to go to Erie Beach quite a biL and then it hasn't been going for quite a while. 11 �( M.N: Were you at Erie Beach when it was operating ? A.B: Yes, we used to go to Eire Beach more than Crystal Beach, Crystal Beach was something special, when I was a youngster M.N: Could you tell me something about Erie Beach ? What I would know as the old Dance Hall. A.B: Well thats it I was smaller and wasn't interrested in the dance hall but just in the rides, we would hold our picnics there. M.� They had rides at Erie Beach? What kind of rides did they have ? A.B: All the ones they had at Crystal Beach, in fact they had a old mill there before - you went down a hill into water and then they had-not as big as the Cyclone at Crystal Beach they had one that was a little smaller then that, the turns were sharper I was never on it, I could be wrong but I think it was there before the Cyclone. M.N: When you were little and went to Erie Beach what interested you most ? ( A.B: The rides and the people and the swings ? M.N: Was there a lot people ? A.B: Oh yes, you had to be there to get your table early, there was a lot of people from Fort Erie and that would go to Erie Beach, they were close to Erie Beach thats around here we went there more than Crystal Beach. M.N: Was the grounds kept well ? A.B: As far as I remember, I wasn't really interested in the grounds, I wanted the rides and the swings and that, we always had a lot of fun at Erie Beach, you see I was older and remember the bands at the dance hall- I remember more about Crystal Beach because , I was older when we went there. M.N: We have heard that Erie Beach had its own little train of some sort that used to take people out along - say from the ferry out todo you remember that ? A.B: I remember it but I was never on it. But thats how they would go from Fort Erie to Erie Beach or I imagine they could come across on the boat. M.N: Did this railroad run right along the river or did it cut through the parkway? 12 �( A.B: I don't remember that part, it was more in the Fort Erie part, I don,t remember that part. M.N: Was there big crowds at Erie Beach ? A.B: There was big crowds, just like Crystal Beach now, or when Crystal Beach was busy you had to wait for the rides. M.N: What happened at Erie Beach? A.B: I don't know, I don't even know who owned it , I don't know what happened. M.N: Did the depression have a big affect on this area ? A.B: I imagine it did like every were else , money was tight, you scrimped I never went hungry or cold. M.N: There was quite a few people in Fort Erie in that situation, were it was hard times? A.B: Thats were-I don't know much about then, as I say we were out here from hearing there was a lot, there was some in that Depression that lost there homes, in what is known as Fort Eire , but , I was on the farm then - it was hard, you didn't have money to throw { around, you made do M.N: • During the great Depression in the United States many farmers lost there land and it was pretty tough for them, was there an effect like that around here, did anybody loose there farms, or land? A.B: Not that I know ofbecause I think they was - right around were I lived they all owned there own farms, they were handed down to Father and son, it wasn't as if they had just gone out and bought them. M.N: This area most of the farmers in this area are familys that have been here for awhile or knew the familys that had been here for awhile or are related to the familys do you think that had an effect the close contact? A.B: They, around here the farmers would help with the work or thr­ ashing they all worked together , they helped one another in the harvesting and if they needed help , they would help them, I think it was more like that in Town your nieghbour - now in some places ( tyey don't even know there nieghbours. M.N: Food supplies, you didn't have the refrigeration , how did you keep your meat ? �A.B: There was a butcher that used to be out in the country, a butcher that used to come around every week and you would buy your meat. or you could go to town, there was one who came around to the houses and thats how we would do it , buy it for the week, you would have your own chickens and your pigs for the sauges and then you salted some. M.N: There was far more work involved in keeping your food supply ? A.B: Oh yes, now you can take - you have freezers, you can freeze it but then you couldn't. M.N: A.B: Do you think the food was better then say then it is now? Its fresher. M.N: Do you think you have more choice then you did then? A.B: Oh yes, M.N: In what ? A.B: In everything you got more choice - you mean in foods- theres more variety in friuts, there fruit and vegetables , then you didn't have the vegeatables in the winter, tyeres more packaged foods of different kinds, I'm not saying how good they are for you. ( M.N: Because of the chemicals they have now ? A.B: The chemicals and the sprays, thats it some of them , the apples you buy in a store now don't taste like the apples you would get off a tree. 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Crystal Beach Subject The topic of the resource Crystal Beach, Ontario Description An account of the resource Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL -LH - Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Michael Near Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Avis Benner Location The location of the interview. Mrs. Benner's home at 2530 Bowen Road, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Benner, Avis Description An account of the resource Provided here is Avis Benner's interview. She discusses such topics as: Life on the farm Schools Recreation World War II Communism Ferries Crystal Beach Amusement Park Erie Beach The Depression Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985 1980s 1985 Crystal Beach amusement park Erie Beach ferries Fort Erie Great Depression Oral history recreation transcripts http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/5f8dece3329f79d9eb64332c03e5d2bb.pdf ad8e995fb5432d48873da7759225a4e5 PDF Text Text April 15/85- This is a interview by Michael Near with Ernest Benner at his home on the Bowen Road. ( . M.N: Mr. Benner where were you born ? E.B: I was born in the village of Bridgeburg. M.N: Thats now the north end of Fort Erie ? E.B: Now the north end of Fort Erie and our home-stead was on Dufferin Street were at present today is Dufferin Motors is our old home-stead; the old BellArd Theatre was across the road from us, which was run by the Ziff family, in them days it was silent pictures and Eda Ziff played the piano. M.N: Did your Dad come from Fort Erie ? E.B: Yes, my Father was born in Bridgeburg. Bridgeburg,not Fort Erie. :Hy Dad was born in Bridgeburg, he worked with my Grandfather Em Benner, teaming, digging cell¢ars. M.N: They were called teamsters ? E.B: Yes my Dad and Grand-dad and many more around Bridgeburg in those days did the big projects-the two big projects they did was dig the cellar for Pratt and Lambert Paint and Varnish Company ( up there on Mack St. and the Arner Company which used to be the old Jell-o Company were they made Jell-o and those cellars were all dug and scraped with horses. M.N: The horses were a lot more popular then ? E.B: Oh yes, there was lots of horses then in Bridgeburg them days, Charlie Vahaye had a horse, a promient family in Bridgeburg Dicky White was the butcher shop on Jarvis St. , he had a horse and a Democrat, he delivered grnceries with it and Harvey Con­ noly used to deliver groceries. M.N: Whats a Democrat ? E.B: A buggy like mine, a two seated buggy, down on Courtwright St. John Dustro had a grocery store he also delivered with a horse and Peanuts Benner drove the horse. M.N: Was that any relation to you ? E.B: Yes, first cousin. 1 �M.N: ( When did you first start at the Coal Company ? E.B: !started in the coal after school I suppose I'd be about 12 or 13 years old, come home from school and go down and bag coal. Thats the only job I ever worked at, !worked at Horton Steel for two months, other than that the only other job I had was at home. M.N: You delivered coal ? E.B: Yes, I delivered coal for years and years, with trucks after the horses went out. When the snow storm of 44, thats the winter Ellen was born, I delivered coal with the horses for two weeks In the winter of 38 I delivered milk for the Fort Erie Dairy in the winter time, I was on the farm and went and helped them out. M.N: Big change since you were a kid ? E.B: Ho ho theres more changes then you can believe, its pitiful the way Fort Erie is today. M.N: In what way ? E.B: Well number one Fort Eriewas a Rail Road town and when we was kids I could of got a job any place, there was all kinds of work in ( Fort Erie. It was a Rail Road town, you talk to your Dad, shovel ing snow in the winter on the Rail Road , you could get a job any place, now its all mechanized theres no work, look at your Rail Road, look at the section gang all �one by hand, now its machine. M.N: I would like to ask you some specifics. Do you remember Prohib­ ition ? E.B: No, not that much. M.N: Do you remember anything going on, at that time ? E.B: I remember when they was rum running at the foot of Dufferin St. there was boats coming in and out when I was a kid, at that time we didn't know any better kids would dive down arid get bottles of what ever it was, whiskey, wine, beer, I don't know what it was I was just a kid like little Mike. M.N: Was there a lot of guys involved..... E.B: Oh yes, there was a lot of guys involved in smuggling, this river was alive from here to Chipawa. ( M. N: Was there any bad incidents:-shoot outs ? E.B: Not that I recall. 2 �M.N: ( Okay will skip over to the Depression- hard times in the Fort Erie area ? E.B: Yes, it was hard times, I could tell you so much it would make your head spin. There was just no work, us kids in our family I went out to the farm to work with Uncle Orville Sherk, but half of Fort Erie caddied, do anything to get a dollar, kids would go to the Erie Downs Golf Course and caddy. In the Depressionit was just there was no work. Engineers, conductors, and brake­ men and so on the Rail Road lost there jobs. Old Pere Embry I'll never forget for one, he ended up as janitor at the High School, till this thing got over-Cecil Winimute-oh my Uncle Braun Parker and Avery and Eddie and all those guys do anything, this is when Grand-pa Benner had teams, teamsters you only got ¢50 a day. M.N: Was there any welfare or social assistance then ? E.B: Yes, what they would do in our case, being in the coal business if you had no money and no heat you went to the town hall. The town hall was run by two people, Bill Tate was the clerk and Doug ( Sage was his secratary and they did more then all they got down there �oday, I'll tell you. You would get a voucher for a ton of coal bring it over to my Dad or the office and they hang it on a hook. This was one of many, then every month my Dad would send the bill into the Town, and he would get his money for the coal, the town paid everything and the same with groceries, you got a voucher for groceries and you took it to Carrolls Store, Carrolls was on Jarvis St. then or the Dominion Store-this is the way they did it-but you worked for it, down there on the corner of- were Bill Fickels is to-day- I can remember as a kid going through there to the office and the works office was right along side of it, it was as big as this house here. That was the office and everything - Bert Sampson and Doug Finlason was town fore­ man, Roy Renshaw started just as a kid, sweeping and shoveling. M.N: What was the difference between Bridgeburg and Fort Erie ? E.B: Well Bridgeburg and Fort Erie had the same thing- Bridgeburg was in this end of town, Fort Erie was at the other end and I ( can't tell you much about the other end, I remember old Lou Douglas he was Reeve of the other end and old Bill Milton was fudge. Bill Holly- when they incorperated Bill Holly was mayor the best mayor Fort Erie ever had or Bridgeburg ever had. It was 3 �E.B: ( -tough, they bought your coal, they bought your food, they never see you g°. hungry and I remember going to school- if you broke . glasses, the kids didn't have no money, the Lions Club, they furnished glasses. M.N: When do you think they pulled out of the Depression ? E.B: I couldn't say Mike, they called it the dirty thirties, what was it 3 years, 4 years, I forget. M.N: Did the war help ? E.B: Well you see we were quite aways from the war, but we never went, when was the first time, I went, when was the first, I was· in the second draft. By that time things were booming, Fleet was going strong and they kept adding on to Fleet, -Redford Construction did a lot of work at Fleet, I mean Benner Coal Company in them days sold a pile of cement and everything else. Theres so many changes Mike. When everybody says you'd hate to go back to the old days- its brutal whats these kids going to do, this is what gets me, I mean everyone can't be a doctor or lawyer, what are they going to do? The computers ? In them days they plowed snow, ( my Dad and Grand-dad and everybody else down there, they plowed snow with horses on the sidewalk- your old man- they did this all winter long. M.N: Can you tell me about the ferry ? Do you remember if it operated in the winter time ? E.B: Yes, I think it did on decent days when there wasn't to much ice. I'll tell you who you want to talk to about that ferry- Scotty Miller, you know Yummy Miller- you ask Yummy Miller, he will refer you he lives right down there on Phips St.- his wife- Scotty worked on the ferry, to bad Pete Thompson wasn't here-Christ- Pete could tell you more- oh man- but there all gone now but I remember when young Scotty Miller worked on the ferry. And I know Sunday afternoons a bunch of us would walk up to the ferry dock, get the boat across, cost you a nickel to go over, we walked up ferry hill, it cost you a nickel to go to the Victoria show you got a bag of popcorn for a nickel-man! you had a field day for ( a quarter. M.N: What was the south-end like ? What was down there ? Just like it is to-day, I was never in the south-end really that much, Bill 4 �( E.B: _Holly was the main stay there, he had a hardware store, Frank Hapgood had the grocery store, Eddie Seaton had the brokers and insurance office. The train ran to Erie Beach from the ferry dock right straight through, that ferry would come over loaded with people, that was a big deal and those two hotels was there . M.N: Which hotels were those ? E.B: The Anglo-American, the Queens was run by the Hawkins family, the Queens Hotel was there- the King Edward but t�at was big business. . . M.N: What do you call that train that ran from .. ..? E.B: I couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was . telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope on that thing. M.N: ( What do you call that train that ran out from. E.B: I ... ? couldn't tell you Mike, the train went from the ferry dock out to Erie Beach, what they called it I couldn't tell you, but as I was telling you, if you could call Mrs. Ray Plato, tell her you were talking to me and she'll maybe talk with you, give you some dope on that thing. M.N: Were you ever out to Erie Beach when it was open ? E.B:: Oh yes, I was just a little kid . M.N: Was it nice ? E.B: Oh yes, it was really nice but as I say it was run and controlled by the Bardol family and they owned all that property, Harry Heatherton had a store there, oh yes, we did business with the Bardols for years. M.N: The Bardols had control of it - were they Canadians ? E.B: No they were Americans. M.N: What about Crystal Beach E.B: Well we never got out to Crystal Beach very much Mike, it was a long way up there but it was going strong but they both did good, evidently. That boat came from Buffalo. M.N: The Canadiana ? E.B: Yes, the Canadiana came from there done a big business. to Crystal Beach and they 5 �( E.B: If you could talk to some of the old custom officers down town if theres any old ones, like Pere Sexsmith is gone now and Johnny Rider, they all worked that boat. At Cry stal Beach they had the customs and immigration there. M.N: They had customs and immigration at Crystal Beach ? E.B: Oh yes, right at the Beach, they did it at the ferry dock too. Charlie Muir ran it down there. M.N: Do you remember anything about the building of the Peace Bridge ? E.B: Oh a little, lets see I was about 8 years old, I heard my Dad talk about it, they drawed cement in there they poured those piers and everything. The cement came in cloth bags, they dropped bag and all in, that was a big big deal for Fort Erie the Peace Bridge was, I was just a kid, I remember them building it. M.N: How many people were in that area of Bridgeburg, Fort Erie, and Amigari, roughly ? E.B: Maybe 3 to 4,000, I guess- like I told you get into those files down there, I wanted to go down there, Grand-Pa Benner was- served ( on council, I think it was 1890 just before 1900, you could get all that stuff, oodles of stuff. M:N: Were did you go to school in Fort Erie ? E.B: Phipp Street School . M.N: That was Bridgeburg ? E.B: That was Bridgeburg. M.N: Was that a big school ? E.B: Yes. M.N: Did it take in all that area of town ? E.B: Phipp St. went from Bowen Road in Fort Erie to Courtwright St. well then after a few years as the population grew, I remember my brother Zeke and Gordy, see we lived on the North side of Jarvis St. they had to go to Winimute School but I never did, I started at Phipp St.. M.N: What did you do as a kid ? E.B: Skating, hockey, playing ball, swim in that river. M.N: The river a lot cleaner then ? E.B: Oh yes, it was clean as a whip. M.N: Fish ? E.B: Lots of fish at the foot of Dufferin St., you see they had the air­ plane dock - sea-planes used to come in there. 6 �E.B: M.N: When did this airplane used to come in there ? E.B: ( An airplane dock just down from the gravel dock. Oh Christ, I don't know when- why they landed in there I don't know, but they did used to be sea-planes that came in there, you know pontoon planes, they land on the water, but there was all kinds of fishing in the water, lots of pike and bass in the spring of the year, you take in there under the Peace Bridge they used to call it the old mill race, all kinds of fish up there. M.N: Whats the old mill race ? E.B: That was the name of it, when they built the Bridge that done away with it, you know when you go under the Peace Bridge, well that was all water,, thats were we used to fish. M.N: That was natural ? E.B: That was natural then they put the bridge in. M.N: So when did the town start to grow ? E.B: Well you could definitly say in the war years, Fleet got going, Horton Steel, all them people worked around the clock. M.N: ( The Rail Road was going strong ? E.B: The Rail Road was going steady, they was hiring men like crazy -they couldn't get men. M.N: Do you think the schools were better then, when you were a kid ? E.B: I would say so- definitely, because you had the 3-r's rememberreading, writing, and arithmitic, look at it to-day you got these guys coming out of college and can't spell there own name bu� our set-up is altogether different, exaperience don't mean nothing you got to have that piece of paper, which is all wrong Mike, I mean I'm from a wealthy family and your from a poor family, your people can't put you through college and you come out with a piece of paper and you don't know nothing about nothing, I've worked at trucking and teaming and you name it, I got the exsper ence, but I'd be knocked out-mine you- look at the wages that's being paid to-day, I mean I started working down there shoveling coal, we got 20¢ a hour and you worked your way up. I got married in 1942 and I was making 25 $ a week, bought a house, a'fid all our furniture, we was doing fine on $25.00 a week, now that $25. 00 has to be $325.00 or you don't exist, I mean interest in those days was 3 or 4 %, look at what it is to-day 16-18. A pair of shoes, the best shoes I ever had - Sunny Shoes- I never paid more then $3.30 at Father and Son Shoes. 7 �M.N: ( Did you ever go to Buffalo and shop ? E.B: Oh yes, shopped in Buffalo all the time, we always bought are overhalls- all our winter clothes- Sears Roebuck was a wonderful big store- like in my days, the lower terrace they called it, thats were all the hardware stores, all the big ones. My Dad and Grand­ dad, in those days would go over and buy and what little duty you had to pay on it. M.N: A lot of people shopped over in ...... ? E.B: Oh yes, a lot of people shopped in Buffalo. M.N: In my research I've found an area called Victoria, down by the International Bridge, do you remember Victoria ? E.B:: No, but they tell me that Bridgeburg was called Victoria, you go ' · and search in that library. Bert Miller wa{) the old historian, he's got a daughter alive, Mrs. Mary Sauder, she lives down on the. Blvd. she did, whether she's got any of them old papers, there was a whole write up in the Fort Erie paper about 10 years ago all about Victoria and the name of Jarvis St.-its all in there. M.N: Do you remember when Jarvis Street had mud on it ? E.B: Yes, I remember when they paved Jarvis St., the only reason I re­ member, when they came to a drive way , were your drive way went in they poured concrete aprons you would call them we were just kids and the foreman gave us a nail, I'll never forget it, we put our names and date in the concrete. M.N: Do you remember the date of that ? E.B: No, I remember when they paved the streets in Fort Erie because Godson Construction Company from Toronto did all the work and my brother Howard he was water boy for the construction company all he did was carry a pail of water and give the labourers a drink. M.N: Do you remember any of the business down on Jarvis St? E.B: Oh Mike Purpura had the barber shop, he was a prominent barber, and you go down Jarvis St. there was - Briggs- the Briggs building old Mr. Briggs had a big business, I'll never forget out in front of his store, right on the sidewalk of Jarvis St. sat a gasoline pump one of those old hand pumpers, they had the glass thing and they held 10 gallons, and gasoline in them days was about 20-22 cents · a gallon and you go down from-Briggs had the paint, wallpaper, fishing tackle, bycycles, he had everything, he did a big business. Next to Briggs was Patton and Dotty it was a clothing store in Fort Erie.. 8 �E.B: ( Then you went down and the Superior Store and the Dominion Store. Frank Willik had a butcher shop there-Mitch had a hardware store there, Tommy Holbick worked in the hardware store and Hecknians Barber Shop was there and La Hays grocery store was there- and Ernie and Alice Mitchels Barber Shop was there, Dicky White's Butcher Shop, thats before they built the A&P, Paul Pong had a laundry in there, Everts had the Dairy, Magdallena Moringstar had the Fort Erie Photo Studio, Robins had a Shoe Store there, Lonsbury had the frug Store, Kieth Butler had the Barber Shop, Ziggy Klien had the Pool Room, Charters Bakery was down in there to, the Bank of Montreal was in there- I remember when they built the Bank of Montreal on the south si.de of Jarvis St. they had the cops, a big to do, they took the vault and the money from one side of the street to the other. M.N: Who was the cop then ? Andy Griffiths ? E.B: I remember Andy and Chirp, Walter Kitt was a cop, but before Andy Griffiths - ain't that a bugger- I'm slipping, he lived up in the Barney Long house on Dufferin St., Hyat was his name, some such thing as that- he was a cop. Well then down on Jarvis St. ther was a Chinese Resturant it had a big rooster out in front with lights on, it just looked as if its head was going all the time and Eddie Johnson had the R•eview Paper, which hired a lot of people, old John Atwood had the Atwoods Store down there, he was Reeve of the town, he was the under­ ta,ker, he was the furniture maker, he had her. The old Post Office stood there- old Billy Hogg ? - Billy Braum ? - your going a long way back- and Gord Roberts had the eye-Rungs Garage was in the back and there was the Superior Store and the Royal Bank old G.R. Steele ran the Royal Bank. There was 2 or 3 stores up in there but I forget who was all there. I remember Tom Nags had the Barber Shop up on the top end of Jarvis St., he had a big wooden veranda wooden side-walk, people would go there and sit- my Dad went to the barber shop every Saturday with out fail, thats were the old timers met and shot the breeze. M.N: This was right in Bridgeburg ? E.B: Right down at Heckmans Barber Shop- my Dad- Angus brothers they had Angus Groceries on Central Ave., Bill Hana, Bill Cavana Doc Streets and Doc Mitchell. 9 �E�B: Bill Heckman would never get home Saturday night, they didn't close up to 12:30-1:00 oclock, shooting the breeze down there ( oh that was a big due. M.N: Did you used to go to dances ? E.B: Oh yes, we used to have beautiful dances down there, all kinds of dances. M.N: What kind of music ? E.B: Different people would play, no such thing as juke boxes then, you had someone on the violin, the guitar, the piano. M.N: All people from town ? E.B: Oh yes, lots of Waltzes, you know, square dancing was big but I· remember - must have been the Rebecas it was the ladies organization of the Odd Fellows, they would hold dances and my Mother was on the lunch commitee, I remember us kids would go upstairs, with cakes- we had a great time. M.N: Was there a lot more lodges then- mens clubs ? E.B: Well not more, there was the Masonic Lodge, the Odd Fellows, the Orange Lodge- that I remember the Kinsmen Club, the Lions Club, the Junior Chamber of Commerce which was really going strong then, Dutch Jackson was president, I used to go down to it. But them was all good organizations and they did a lot of good for old Bridgeburg, I'll tell you. M.N: What did they do ? ' E.B: Helping people out, you know. M.N: Did they build a lot of stuff, or just donate money ? , E.B: They did a lot of donations, helping out, the Kinsmen Club for instance years ago- maybe in the forties, they supplied all the hockey, they had kids playing like they do now, from six or seven years old and up and they footed the bill for it, the Kinsmen Club they bought those kids everything, they did really good. M.N: You mentioned hockey, the Fort Erie arena during the great snow storm collapsed, that was 37 or 39 ' was that as bad as the snow storm of 1977 ? E.B: M.N: ( Oh I would say yes, did the 77 take much down ? I think it caused a fair amount of damage . E.B: The arena was the big damage in Fort Erie at the time, but they never had the equipment like they do now- snow plows- I remember Bill Renshaw drove the army truck, as long as you didn't break down you was fine. 10 �E.B: But you take like us guys drawing coal, or milk with the horses when the teaming was going, you had good slieghing all winter long, now ··with the salt and calcium you couldn't sliegh if you had to. M.N: You think the team was better for that type of weather? Slower ? E.B: Oh yes, you where a lot slower, but you were tuned to the times. To-day its hurry hurry, just look at me this morning with the team I could of did that in 2 hours but I was all morning with the team. Working men took a lot of pride in there work but not to-day, to­ day its production, hurry up. M.N: You think things were a lot more quality then ? E.B: Yes sir. M.N: When did you notice the difference when coal shifted over to elec­ tricy and gas ? E.B: Oh I would guess about 45 to 50 some where in there, gas $tarted to come in strong then and then they pushed oil but oil never got the foot hold that gas did but it was a lot more money but people was tired of carrying ashes evidently, the cheapest coal we sold was $12.00 a ton that was for number 1 hard coal. M.N: How long would a ton of coal last? E.B: A ton of coal would run a normal house a month, 30 days, give or take, how much you had cold weather and wind, but once the people got the gas, and wages started going up why everybody went to it, the coal business went right down ...... . M.N: Where did you get your coal ? E.B: Our coal came from Scranton, Pennslvania. M.N: That would be brought in by train ? E.B: Oh yes, we shipped everything by rail, we used to ship stoker coal stoker coal was promient then, the hospital, the green houses, the bigger stores well then Archie MacGlas1'on he started- down there on the foot of Jarvis Street we called it the gravel dock, they shipped gravel, pea gravel, why as kids for sling shots they were dandy, and then they - during the war they shipped in scrap cars in there, you don't remember that, they unloaded scrap there..... M.N: What did they do with the scrap ? E.B: Shipped it to Hamilton I guess. Well then Archie went into the coal business, he went into the stoker business, why he took all the stoker business in Fort Erie we couldn't compete with water rates. 11 �E.B: I with rail rates so Archie had a good stoker business, he had -he sold stokers, and seviced stokers, we was the best of friends mind ( you, we was in competition, but good competition. M.N: Whats a stoker ? E.B: Well a stoker was a hopper thing, it would hold 5 or 6 hundred pounds of coal and it would last a day or two, you didn't have to attend to it every day. M.N: Who was the first mayor you ever remember ? E.B: The first mayor I ever remember was old Mr. Hall, Jim Hall's f ather, ther was him as I remember Bill Atwood was reeve and Al Kirk was deputy reeve what ever they called them and now I 've for-· gotten who followed down the years who followed Hall there was - I remember - Charlie Price was mayor, Finn Rapochy was mayor, Holly from the south end he was mayor, Herb Guess was inay�r. M.N: E.B: Oh I guess the majority of them were conservative. M.N: Fort Erie has always been a conservative town hasn't it ? E.B: ( Most of these guys conservative ? Yes. M.N: Did any of them go on to bigger politics? E.B: Well I don;t think so, well Jack Teal was mayor for 13 years, I think Gerv Fretz was the only one that went on to...... but election night in Bridgeburg was one of the big nights of the year, I'm tell­ ing you, there was more hustle bussel, hustling votes up you know but I remember as a kid, we used to go down to that town hall at night, when the polls closed at night- 8: o'clock or what ever time well by 9 or 9:30 we would have a new mayor and Jack Baker had the corner store over there, papers and candy, well when you got the new mayor no matter who it was took us kids over to Bakers and bought us all candy that was a big big night, thats why you never forgot those politicians. M.N: The politicans were more out for the people then ? E.B: Oh yes, but I think on the overall old Bridgeburg was a pretty good spot to live in, you know we were right in that neck of the woods you couldn't go any farther because of the river, there was a lot of commuting back and forth to Buffalo and I know from being ( in business you take the same business in Bridgeburg or Fort Erie now and the same business in Toronto, the one in Toronto will do a lot better, the transport has to come another hundred miles, were right in the neck, you look at the map. 12 �M.N: ( There was a lot of hotels down on Courtwright St. do you remem ber any of those ? E.B: Well, yes I remember the BanlE.a House, I remember the BarN�a House when Bob Beatty run it, thats a long long time ago and we sold those people coal and that piano we got I bought the piano out of the Bar"ll�-a House, Bob Beatty piano went to George Seback and his kids took lessons on it and when they was done I bought it from short and now Lois has it and my grandson is taking lessons on it and thats out of the Ban-i e.a Hous�. now the old bucket of blood up the street I remember it was Mervison Hotel I guess and I remember when it was Waters Livery Stable everybody that came to town- you'd ta)_{e your horse and buggy over there and they feed it and put it in the barn just like you see in the movies" ll.N: When did it change over to a hotel ? E.B: Well it was always a hotel and livery stable. M.N: It was combined type thing ? E.B: Yes, I remember old Mr. Carmichael lived out here at the subway and he drove a little horse and buggy to work every day, he was ( caretaker at the station down there. M.N: The rail road station ? E.B: Yes, and he kept his horse in Waters Livery Stable. M.N: Was the bucket always a tough place? E.B: The bucket was never a tough place, every one thought it was tough, old Matt Compton said to the gang that came in there that there dollar was just as good as the other ones, you went there and had a gooc;l time and everybody knew everybody, and no one got into trouble, you take Jack Fordham and Red Anger when those guys were in there hey day, it was a lot of laughs I'll tell you. M.N: Where they locals ? E.B: Oh they were locals and tougher then whalebone . M.N: Where did they work ? E.B: Red Anger was the black-smith around town, he was on the race­ track- he was one of the best, Jack Fordham was a engineer on the Rail Road well when they got into the sauce they were just like a couple of bulls, I remember one time, our office was just across the street we come down there and cut through the bank, well Red Anger and Fordham are in there all loaded up they picked up a Quebec heater up-it was a thing about so high- they picked it up and carried it outside and put it on the sidewalk. 13 �E.B: ( Old Matt Compton was pulling his hair out. M.N: Matt Compton got around quite a bit in town ? E.B: Matt ian the hotel, Matt and Mary Compton, Sunday was the busy day. Jack Fordham got drunk one time and Matt had a little safe every body had these little home safes, and he got up stairs, some how, and he picked that safe up and carried it out on the verandah and he dropped it over the end well they called the police and Chirp went down, heres Jack down on the lawn - and he says what are you doing Jack- he says I'm just trying to get W.G.R. Chirp Mathhews is another one to talk to he can tell you more about it. You talk to Chirp or Gutsty Purpura theres not many of the old ones left, they 'll fix you up. M.N: When did you notice that the town really became a town ? E.B: You see I was born and raised here and it made a difference when you grew up with the town and every body knew every body. I remember when the Fleet started I don't know I suppose it was Jack Anderson who started the Fleet - I remember Oscar John­ son, P. W. Johnson pumped gas for Gramel they had a Gulf station at the foot of Courtwright Street and Pee Wee quit and went to work at the Fleet, he work up there 6 months and then get laid off, he took up sign painting and he did good, but this is what a lot of them did when they started out there, wll once it started to roll those people had a really good job, look at your uncle Al Ried, there all pensioned off now and I think is one of the best places in Fort Erie to work maybe in the country, I don't know, they got all the benifits. and there busy, there trying to keep it going. M.N: Was there industries back then that are not now? E.B: Oh, a lot of small industries that folded up and got out. M.N: Nothing of any size ? E.B: Well you take the Mentholatum was big in those days, its closed, the Jell-o Company was big, big big business, I remember when they drawed Jell-o - Ernie Young drove a model T truck, drawed Jell-o up to the Rail Road, they shipped it in cars, and there was the Markel Electricon Lewis St. well when the Jell-o went out the Arner went in, do you remember ? And they hired a lot of people, they did a -pill factory you know but then it folded up and thats all apartments. 14 �M.N: ( Big difference in the Rail Road ? E.B: Oh, there is no Rail Road, the New York Central is gone, there was-the round house up on the top end of Jarvis, she's gone, Orly Johnson was a hogger there, and old Mr. Galvirth lived next to us, Grandpa Hewell, and Alvin Benner, Ross Brown and all they did was get engines ready, they had a turn table there, you could go and watch the engines �urn around and thats all gone. ... well your Dad and Bobby Long, Frenchy-you know all them guys is done-I don't know what the Rail Road is doing, but it sure slipped but you stop and think and talk Rail Road why pay rail rates to ship it into Fort Erie and then you got to unload, say a car of sa.nd or coal or what ever it is, now a big truck can bring it right up to your door. M.N: Did any one ever think that Fort Erie would expand as much �s it has ? E.B: I often think if my Grandpa Benner could see that Central Ave. Bridge, see everybody had to go around underneath the Internation al Bridge that was a busy place evert thing was coming or going ( you went to the south end of town you had to go the boulevard I often say if Grandpa Benner could see that bridge, man oh man wouldn't that have saved a lot of steps. M.N: Do you think the town has grown for the better E.B: Oh yes, its grown for the better, better in a lot of ways. M.N: What do you think about this Regional Government ? E.B: Its the worst thing thats happened to anybody, you got no control over nothing, I mean before we had a mayor - were talking Bridgeburg now, you had the mayor and council, out here we had Bertie Town -ship as we was know and you name it we had Fred House, we had Bruce Finch, we had Orn Teal, we had some awfuly good men out -here and they run the Township and evry thing went along fine, and now your in regional- who do you talk to ? You got a regional council, you got a chairman everything is in the Welland area, I mean right here you could do this and do that, regional council is the worst thing that could happen, I said this right from the drop of the hat. M.N: Do you think its the loss of the personal contact? E.B: Oh it definitly is, definitly, I mean take for instance you, you want ed a drain cleaned out or some thing, you called the town ship office in Ridgeway, 15 �E.B: ( -and either you went up town and they were out they stop by and have a visit for 10 or 15 minutes, say what do you want and they fix it, .or this week or next they send some one out, you can't do that now, the thing is so big who do you talk to and all they do is pass the buck, pass the buck. M.N: So the local service was a lot better then? E.B: Local service was 10 times better than what we got to-day M.N: And not as large ? M.N Who do you think was the best mayor in town ? E.B: I don't know, !mean when you go back, I guess Bill Holley was one of your better mayors this is years ago, coming up to date your · present mayors I would say Jack Teal was one of your better mayors he must of been, the man held office for 10or·15 years, I don't know how long. \ 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Crystal Beach Subject The topic of the resource Crystal Beach, Ontario Description An account of the resource Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL -LH - Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Michael Near Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Ernest Benner Location The location of the interview. Mr. Benner's home on Bowen Road. Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Benner, Ernest Description An account of the resource Provided here is Ernest Benner's interview. He discusses such topics as: Bridgeburg Transportation Railroad The Depression Hotels and Taverns Crystal Beach Amusement Park Erie Beach Peace Bridge Schools Buffalo Stores and businesses Recreation Politics The Barnea Fleet Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 1985 1980s 1985 Barnea Bridgeburg Buffalo Crystal Beach amusement park Erie Beach Fleet Great Depression hotels and taverns Oral history peace bridge politics railroad recreation schools stores and businesses transcripts transportation