http://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/c7c5c8de42975f41d23c5a4122130a87.pdf c78d5d21a0b62b75a495877dbd83bcd3 PDF Text Text This is N e il F l indall in the h o m e of M r . Percy Detenbeck , 545 Central A venue Fort Erie, Ontario , t h is the 12th day of August 1985. N.F: Where w ere you born M r. Detenbeck ? P.D: I w as born in the Townsh ip of Bertie, three m iles w est of the Bertie Boundary. N.F: How big was Bertie Township at the t i m e ? P.D: Well it took in R idgeway, S tevensville, C rystal Beach and then out to the subway on the outsk irts o f F ort E r ie . N.F: Where exactly was it that you l ived ? P.D: I lived on Sunset D r iv e , that's name then . . . it was just a the name of it now , but it had no side road . .I went to school at Number . Six, up on Ridgemount Road...and then after school I worked par t time o n the farm...and then I got myself a job a t the a g e o f seven­ teen on the Michigan Central Railroad at that time...and in 1930 I star ted 1928 . .and in 1930 the New York Central leased it for . ninety-nine years. N.F: For ninety-nine years? P.D: Yes they were supposed to...and I wo rked for the New York Central up until the Penn Centr al took it over...then after that...why it was only a few years I took my pension ... that was in 1974 . and . . I've been on pension since 1974 ...I get an American pension because I worked for the New York Central...so I've been retired ever since . .. do in g nothing b u t g ar den ing and s uch . N.F: Th e M ich igan Central had P.D: Yes , that's when I first started . . . it ran between Detroit and Buffalo a roundhouse in For t Erie? the M ich igan C entral . . . then the New York Central took it over and it was between Chicago and New York . . . which we thought we were going t o work for a big railroad and everything was going to be real prosperous . . . and in 1930 they cut the staff just about fifty percent. N.F: That was in 1930. P.D: And then the Depression came and I was laid off . . . worked s o m e t i m e i n t h e w inter a n d t h e n i n the s u m m e r I'd be o u t of a j o b . . . and n o une mploym ent i n those days e ither , in those days the last (1) �( cheque was it . . . you had t o go out and find a j o b s o m e place w ith a p ick and shovel. .. and then I started back in 1936 . . . and I cont inued r ight on through . . . steady. N.F: Did you travel w ith the railroad or were you always in F ort Erie ? P.D: It was the Fort Erie yard was w h ere I worked . . . and then in 1960 they give us n ine days notice that they were going to close the yard up. N.F: Se r iously, that is what they did ? P.D: Nine had days . . . that w as all they g av e us j o int seniority with M o ntr os e I went to an d all these m e n.. . well w e . and Welland . . so I left here and Welland after that and I w o rk e d in Welland until I took m y pension. N.F: That wouldn't be very easy either travelling back and forth. P.D: No, it wasn't and I'm on pension now on my twelfthyear ..I travelled . back and forth... well I must have travelled back an forth at least ten years or so before I took my pension. ( N.F: That is difficult. P.D: In the winter time especially. N.F: There is no direct route into Welland. P.D: Well now it is wo rse than it used to be when I first went up. ..at the time they put the new canal through and I saw that right from the time it started until it was finished and the boats came then they moved our yard from t h e C ity of .Welland out five t h ro ugh miles w est of Welland, o u t on the h igh w ay along the Welland R iver . . . and that's where it is today ... and the T.H.&B it is a j o int the and the Central, and s ince that t ime they've the C . N. T.H.&B R . they went C onrail first and now t h e C onrail has sold out to the C . P. and the east end you work for the T . H .& B--C . P.--C . P . and if you are on the west end the C. N. k ind of took the west end over ... so the west end now they have the tunnel. . . we had the tunnel so the C .N . uses the tunnel at the west end and the C . P. uses a bridge to N iagara F alls on this end. N.F: You've seen a lot of changes then , from the t i m e you started. ( (2) , �( , P .D: Well I've seen lot s of changes espec ially in the boxcars . .. the cars, the boxcars they were only forty-e igh t foot, for ty-tw o foot , now you have got cars that an-over a hundred foot in length. N.F: That is huge, really huge. P.D: So there have been a lot of changes in m y day espec ially in e qu ip m e n t w e had the o l d s t e a m engines . .. n o w t h e y a r e a l l dieselized . N.F: When d id that beg in ? P .D: Well I can' t say right off. N.F: Was it a really a fast change over or did it take a number of years ? P .D: Oh, it ch ang ed over quite fast . ..the first trains that came , o ver here in our yards here in Fort Erie was the Penn syl van ia and that was the first diesel I saw... they used to come over and bring their trains over and drop them off and take a train back .. .well then a little while after that the New York Central came out with a few diesels ... and as the diesels came out, why they would get rid of a steam engine ...so we've had six or seven steam engines up here standing stored for a long time... before they took them away to ( scrap them. N.F: They scrapped them. P.D: During that time a lot of those brass bells that a man couldn't lift, they were stolen off them... so when they left here the bells were pretty well gone .. . I think they even took the bell off the one over in the museum . ..that there was supposed to be stolen ...they would be worth a lot of money of a fellow had them today. N.F: There must have been to keep at the P .D: a lot of me morabil ia that people didn't th ink ti m e . Yes and the old roundhouse up here . .. they tore it down, and all the car shops . . . and another th ing that happened just before they closed the yard . . . they bu ilt us a new yard office, and repaired the car shops and fixed all the repair tracks up and everything . .. and then a year or so after that they closed her u p and all those new buil d ings, they tore th e m down. N.F: ( They s i m ply tore t h e m down. P.D: They just tore t h e m down . . . well they were wrecked in the first (3) �( year that they were vacant. N.F: Did they have cattle pens up on the tracks? P.D: Yes w e had stock pens up . . . they were on the top of Jarvis Street yes they sat r ight at the top of Jarvis Street, if a train got delayed or something ... and the cattle had to be fed ... we had to have a stock thing to run the cattle through , down to feed them . . . and the section man w ould chase them back up again, roll them up� N.F: When you were in school what was there in the area for recreat ion ? P.D: We had no r ecreation at that t i m e . . . only what w e made ourselves; w e ' d make a football field at the sch ool yard of our own, and then put u p s t icks and then that's all w e would ever have, or m ake a l ittle baseball d iamond . ..but w e had no recreat ion at that and the school time . . I went to out there on Ridgemount Road was a . stone school. .. and I can still remember the wooden emblem on the front 1865 when it was built...out of stone, and all we had fo r heat was a g reat big box stove...and a woodshed in back of the school, and we'd, each one would have to take turns car rying this three foot ( s quar e block of wood in, to keep wood on the stove... to try to keep her warm ... and the school was so drafty, there were lots of times that we had to come home, you just couldn't keep her hot. N.F: I'll bet, winters were mor e severe then weren't they? P.D: Oh, yes, and then an outhouse way on the outside .. you had to . about f ive h undred yards to get to it in walk i n the winter time... a ladies one corner of the school yard and the man's on the oth e r corner, and then walk ing back and forth to school a whole m ile ... we didn't have any busses . . . we'd walk in snow right up to our bell ies . .. hoof h e r back and forth to school everyday . N.F: It couldn't have been very easy . P.D: No, not l ike they have got it today . . . you had so many chores to do in the morning before you went to school . . . and then when you came h o m e from school you had chores to do at nighc;and no television to s it u p and watch either . . . in later years w e wound up .. ; well I used to start build ing crystal set radios . . . and then that was ( (4) �something then it went from crystal set, why we'd build a one ••. tube, that was really something. N.F: I bet it was yes. P.Il And sit up half the night and see how many stations you could log. N.F: That would be very interesting. P.D: It was sure different then and now. N.F: Was it a one room school house! P.D: One room ••. all the whole classes right from premier class right on up to your senior second and then you went and passed your entrance to Fort Erie here to high school...you came down here when you passed your entrance. N.F: How did you ever manage to get to high school in Fort Erie? P.D: Well t hat was t he only place t hat you could go you see, t hat was t he arrangement . N.F: Just no choice about it . P.D: No, when you got t hrough t here, you went down to try your ... t hey called it an entrance, and t here was no grades in t hem days ... t here ( was ... you went to premier school, junior first, junior second, senior second, junior fourt h, senior fourt h and t hen t hat was your end ... that was as far as you went int o t hat , t hen you go t o high school aft er t hat in Fort Erie which.. . I went out and got a job for. N.F: Most people did. P.D: I didn't bother going no further...after t hat you had to self-educat e yourself . N.F: Which is not such a bad idea. P.D: Yes, you got self-educated...and that you don't ever forget...self­ education. N.F: Because if you don't do it right the first time, you automatically do it right after, do it until it is right, when did you first move into Fort Erie? P.D: Oh, well I moved in as soon as about eighteen when I came down ••• and I boarded different places and I'd go back and forth had a car, to ride back and forth I always .•. I'd stay down a week or so ••• was in and out of town all the time I ••• my father he worked for the .•• ( (5) �( C. N. all his life ••. and he used to run the farm and always worked nights on the railroad, and worked the farm in the daytime .•. but h e always commuted back and forth in a horse and buggy first, and a horse and cutter...and then after he got the cars, why he used cars.. .I could always go back and forth when I was working, but then I came and let's see I was about thirty some years old before I got married...but I didn't figure on getting married, and my wife came from out west they brought her here to the Fleet Aircraft during the war, and that's how I got married...she never went back west...and we've done pretty good since, real good...since I took my pension now we, we get along pretty well, making more money now t han I ever did while I was working. N.F: I can well imagine, yes. P.D: And I st ill pay a lot of income t ax ...when I first worked on t he rail­ road whatever I made I got the whole full cheque, no deduct ions ... no income t ax or anything t aken out ...t hat didn't st art unt il about 1935, when t hey st art ed t aking income t ax out ...t hen I didn't know ( much about income t ax and t he boss come to me and t old me get t hose income t ax papers filled out or we'll, you'll be garinsheed, and you'll lo se your job. N.F: Well t hat 's one way to convince you. P.D: So I got a hold of a local lawyer Teddy Tyrill, used to be here in t hem days, got him to fill it out, but he made a mistake so I got money back instead of more than I had to pay in, he made an error so ••. nobody knew too much about it in those days... and then they started taking out hospitilization and all that stuff like that, and they never...oh, it was quite a while later that it was before they started taking income tax out of your cheque...we had to pay the whole thing at the end of the year...and that's what make it tough for us too. N.F: Would it ever, yes. P.D: Yes when I started, it was for that time was getting about 56¢ 30¢ an hour, and Horton Steel at or 35¢ . . . so ( (6) I figured that I had �a real good pay ing jo b . N.F: It is hard now to th ink about wages like that . R.R: Yes now the wages that you get today one hundred and twenty-five or one hundred and th irty-five dollars a day, just an ord inary sw itch­ man. N.F: That's w ithout be ing on the roa d . R.R: It's a good pens ion plan , I get a very good pension . . . ou r pension started in 1937 P res ident R oosevelt put ours th rough , it's an A m e r ican pers ion, and w e got, well our pens ion was real good then acco r d ing to the C . N . and the C . N . is real good now too, then the only th ing about the C . N. l ike our A me r ican pens ion your w ife gets half of what you get . . . b e t w e e n the t w o of us you see, we get A m e rican pens ion now is d iscou n t e d and w e have to pay inco m e tax on that too, and that is thirty-six, th irty-seven percent or it ' s been close to fo rty ce nts on the dollar. .. but w e pay inco me tax on that , of cou r s e you can gain a little bit th ough . ( N.F: They'll take that l ittle b it away as fast as they can too . R.R: O h , yes j u s t as fas t . N.F: W hen you first s t a r t e d work ing a t t h e railroad d id they have a lot of people work ing there ? R.R: Oh it was b ig and it w a s a very busy yar d , me n , there w e re all k inds . of m e n u n t il t h e b ig layoff in 1930 . . . that's when the N e w Y or k C entral took it ove r , and the D epression hit at t h e sa me t ime . . . so I worked even in the . . . W indsor s o m e times when men were going on vacation, in the s u m m e r . . . and I was lucky enough to get a job at the E r ie Downs Golf C ou rse . . . ! drove the t ractor up there, d id that for a w h ile . N.F: C o m ing f r o m a far m that would be second natu re. R.R: A n d then, m aybe in the w inter t i m e and th ings got tough then I m ight be called back on the railroad for the w inter . . . and just in the s p r ing when the t rucks started t o run again I'd get laid off, that's the way I had to start . . . for the first five or s ix years . . . t ill 1936 and then it got steady and I worked right on through . ( (7) �( N.F: That is a long t i m e . P.D: F orty-seven y e a r s , s a m e job. N.F: What were you doing ? P.D: I was a car inspector . N.F: That's the first job you started w ith so I guess you do know qu ite a few of the changes in the cars, and equipment. P.D: Well I was off s ick in there for , and I was laid off, and I took a tu rn as a sw itch m an and then I got laid off again and car ins pector was a more secure job, m uch more secure in our depa r t m ent so . . . well I had a chance to i t was going weeks go fir ing o r an yth ing but I wanted to be where to be steady , and then you'd be because the m jobs laid off a while s o y ou o n ly in 1936, work a few you had to have a lot o f seniority to have a job then, s o I got one there and then I was all set. N.F: That worked out well. P.D: So it worked out quite well for me I never ever killed myself. .. and t he railr oad was a pleasu re in those days, it really was, and ( you couldn't wait to go to work ... not today. N.F: You don't hear many people say that. P.D: You used to have more fun at work than you d id when you were home. you use to have a baseball team or any teams? N.F: Did P.D: No, they had a h oc k e y team for a wh ile but not a ball t e a m . . . we had a hockey team after they built the arena up here . . . and one of the fello w s , I'll tell you how lax w e used to be on the railroa d , th is guy is dead now so I can ment ion th is ... ! was a U n ion R epresentat ive , for twenty-five years and I travelled all over the U n ited States . . . California, Texas and in Canada too, B . R . C . of A . Brotherhood of R a ilway C ar m en of A me r ica, I represented that for t w enty-five years, so that was another th ing I'd be on these conventions at Kansas C ity or anyplac e , Montreal, and we were getting seventy-five dollars or e ighty dollars a day when they were getting about fifteen dollars a day for working home here, the w ife and I , she always t ravelled ( (8 ) �( w ith me . . . we had the best of hotels and everyth ing ... oh, that was really good . . .I made pretty near as much money in the union as I d id working, and s o m e days well more, because I had to go to Detriot to the Joint P rotec t ive Boards they called it, about every month , and that would take three days to go up there and back.:. and w e g o t paid f o r travell ing time, same a s we do at t h e convent ion, and w e'd go from here to Kansas C it y , I'd put three days to go to Kansas C ity and three days to come back, six days there, just travell ing and you'd get on the train here and it was always on the tra in, you'd you'd b e in Kansas get on at free t r an sport a t io n ten at night and the next afte rnoon C ity, but I'd put in three d a y s ... five days to California, each way, Longbeach was our last convention going in C a l if o r n i a you figure five days going and five days com ing back, .. that was interesting too ...okay I was referring to this guy; he was working four-to-twelve and he com e to me and told me the boss won't let m e off, what are you going to do about it, so I explained that I couldn't ( do nothing because we didn't have no m en, and he ar gue d and argued, and he went to wor k t hat afternoon, for o'clock for the four - to - twelve, but in the m eanti m e when the things were all cleared up, without per m ission or telling anybody he goes up and plays hockey, he was a hockey player because he come from Elk Lake, up nor th, an d t hey he were really hockey fans, so he we n t u p broke his ankle ... well he came pla y in g h ockey and back to work and h e called me u p on the phone and h e said "I want you to c o m e up t o work'\ so I went u p and he's got a broken ankle, he's got a rag wrapped around it and h e wants to know how he can say how he has done it on the j o b . . .I said that it's i m poss ible, because all the people u p there at the arena saw you do it, how can you explain that .. :so he got fired.::an d . i t took m e about s ix m onths before I g o t him back . . I got him back�;J got him back w ith h is full senio r ity but no back pay or anyth ing: N.F: That's amazing. P.D: How it happened . . .I went w ith the General C hair man t o Detroit, o r rather the G eneral M anager was in Detroit, so the General ( (9) �-� ( .... ,.. ,,. .. -.� Chairman was going to take h is pens ion at the end of the month and so was the G e neral Manager ... so our General Chairman says "what do you say , your tak ing your pens ion at the end of the month and I'm taking m ine, what do you say w e put th is m an back to work and we can leave a clean slate", so the G ene ral M anager okayed it and that's how we got him bac k . N.F: Isn't t h a t great. P.D: Well I came back that n ight and he lived over here on Jar v is S t reet in an apa r t m ent upstairs, so I went over and told him be ready to be back at work anyt i m e your r ea dy . N.F: Oh , I bet he w as happy . P.D: Yes, N.F: Jobs have never been that easy to find in this town. P.D: No not at all, but at one time the railroad was the only thing in a young fellow with a wife and family. this town... the re was nothing much else ... that paid good money... like t he Horton Steel was thi r t y-five cents an hour for years ...and ( the Fleet started up but they didn't have too many men years ago. N.F: It didn't start off lar ge did it? P.D: No, no not unt il the war time, that's when t he Fleet really started up, but before that Jack Sanderson and a gir l by the name of Emma Sto rm was his secr etary, and that was all plus a few men ... so that's all that consisted of...so the railroad was the only thing, and it used to be always busy because if you didn't like work ing on the New York C entral, why you would j ust quit and go over the next morning and work for C. N . or the C . N . would qu it and they would come over here and work for the M ich igan C entral, and that's just about how easy it w as in them days ... yes I started off w it h the first old car I got was an old Modet T and I d rove it back and forth t o work. N.F: What were the roads like ? P.D: Well they w e r e mostly o r d inarily s tone roads , and then they would put oil down on the m .. . in the w inter t i m e it was bad , well j ust hook up the h o rse and cutter slide the shafts over on one s ide so the ( (10) �pathway would be where the cutter marks run and you could see the horse could run u p that . . . they would slide the shaft sideways, <t-·- --1 and the cutter would stay in the two marks and you were com ing back the same way. N.F: That m akes a lot of se nse. P.D: Yes well that is the way that they used to do it in them days .. . and if you wanted a doctor l ike there was babies to be born o r anything l ike that you called S tevensville , there was a doctor in S tevensville and one in R idgeway, Doctor Buell in S tevensville , S tackhouse in R idgeway and Doctor Douglas down here in the south end, and Doc M enck , and they were the fou r old doctors, and say you w ife was going t o have her baby or s o m e t h ing you would call them up the day before ... s o he w ould hook u p h is horse and c u tter, and y ou w o u l d horse back o u t to m e e t h i m if the weather was b a d a n d the roads w e r e bad, b r ing h i m in and put h is horse away and everyth ing and h e ' d s t ay ove r n igh t . N.F: ( Really , that is w h at they would do. P.D: The baby was bor n r ight in the h o m e , no hospitals , and then they had t o s t ay in b e d it w as nine days , before they could even g e t out of bed in those days. N.F: N ine days . P.D: N ine days and r ig h t in bed .. .I was jus t up t o the h o s p ital here a c ouple of weeks ago w ith a cold here . . . and there was a young girl had a baby there . .. and the next day she was up and walk ing aroun d , it w a s the s a m e w ay w ith an operation, my father h a d h is appendix out in Buffalo and h e was a month before he was ever allowed to get u p out of bed, just last year I had my gallbladder out and I was seventy-four years old at the time I had my gallbladder out . . . and they had me u p . . I had it out at e ight in the morning and they had . me u p and walking around at four o'clock in the afternoon . . . and three days aft e r that they sent m e home w ith a bunch of tubes tape d on my stomac h , a n d he told m e to c o m e back i n t e n days and I'll look you over . . . so in ten days I went back and he pulled out (11) �( the tubes and t h e s t itches . . . never touched it after, it was a perfe ct job and I can eat anyth ing I want . . . that's someth ing . . . and that w as a serious operatio n years :ago. N.F: Well it must have been a life threatening operat ion. P.D: Yes oh yes, even pne u m on ia o r b r onch itis were real bad . . . and then if an old person , they broke any bones pneu monia w ould set in and that is what they would d ie of is pneu monia, not from a break. N.F: Times really have changed that wa y . P.D: Y es, so that is about i t . N.F: How b ig w as the h o s p ital when it w a s first opene d ? P.D: Well it was j u s t about maybe half the s ize that it is now, that front part w a s all o r iginal, t h e new part in the back and t h e e mergency areas , they are t h e only parts that were put on . . . t h e front part is all t h e old part of the h o s p ital. N.F: C o m ing from a far m d i d y ou ever g o to t h e B e r t ie F air ? P.D: All t h e t i m e , oh that w a s s o m e t h ing w e w ould never m is s . . . that was a good day, a day when the sch ools w ould close and e v e r y t h ing ( and w e used to have foot races up on the racetrack . . . they h a d this up at t h e racetrack y ou k no w , they had foot races a n d all k inds of shows and y ou1 .w ould take some of your farm produce d o w n there for p r ize s . N.F: I t w as an agr icultural a n d s o c ial event as w ell ? P .D: Oh sur e , it used t o last a bout t h r e e days , then the fire men they ' d have dances at nigh t , they'd run t h e dances t h e fire depart ment would, and w e ' d dance under the g r andstand, that is when Maddigan had it. N.F: It was a p r ivate enterp r ise at that t i m e ? P.D: Yes it was in those days . . . used to be a bush there where all the barns are . . . and h e had g a m e hens all chicken coops through the bush . . . and h e put a shotgun in h is buggy and he'd d r ive back t hrough t o check h is chicken coops everyday . . . w ith a shotgun. N.F: Y es, no fooling a r ound . P.D: He'd see if anybody would steal ch ickens, and h e l ived way ove r (12) �( on the c orner of what was it , C oncession and B e r t ie . . . way back in the corner where thay pile the m anure and the g r ound stuff that is w h e re h is h ouse was, h e had a cock pit in there where he used t o collect and cockle the birds . . . my father worked on the thrashing machine in them days and he used to thrash h is grain, he w ent as far as Texas figh t ing cocks . . . he was outlawed around here so h e w ould go down there because it was lawful down there and h e had certain chauffers d r ive h i m down . . . different guys. P .D: I can i m agine it w ould have been an interest ing t r ip . N.F: Yes in those days they wouldn't have the h ighways .. . w ell my brother has been down there for over thirty years .. . he left R idgeway and s old h is bus iness w h en he ca me out of the air force and he moved to Texas, and he made himself a fortu ne d o w n t h e r e, h e is w o r t h over a m il l io n dolla r s in p r o p e r t y .. . he never had t o o m uch wh e n he w e n t d o w n b u t he borrowed a l l the money f r om t h e banks dow n t h e r e , it's easy t o bor row money f r o m the banks dow n t here, t h e r e ( is a boa r d , a n d you s t e p in front of t h is b o a r d a n d t h ey l o a n you ten thousand and you make good so the next t ime you get fifty thousand dolla r s and that's how he built h i mself on other people's money . . . well he w a s d o w n selling a irplanes for Flee t after, and h e just got scout ing around t o see where was a good place t o s e ttle s o Houston was really prosper ing, so w ith all the m o n ey h e had h e bought property outs ide of the city . . . then he started t o build apa r t ments and what they call warehouses down there, and I call them fact o r ies but he used to build a warehouse, just w ith angle iron, put on t in and s p ray it w ith a foa m su bstance on the ins ide to keep the heat and the cold out, and then maybe he would make fou r ... four l ittle factories there, just enough to start u p a l ittle bus iness of some k in d , if you were in the plu m b ing bus iness you'd have a little plu m b ing shop on one corner and on a nother corner som eth ing else . . . h e used t o build them and rent them out . . . and then t h e c it y built right out to him . . . that's where he m ade h is money . . . he owns property in F reeport Texas, Marble F alls and on L y ndon Johnson ( (13) �( Lake , and h e had got a daugh ter a son-in-la w in Dallas, a doct o r, he bu ilt h i m a b ig clinic and then h e lives in Houston, r ight on the outskirts of Houston. N.F: He made quite the dec is ion when he left d idn't he. P.D: Well h e had a lot o f ne rve, but m y father he neve r would ever ... he never did have the nerve to do anyth ing , he wouldn't gam ble on noth ing ... and I was just about the same way I could only be fooled . thirty-five years ago when I moved here . .! could have owned th is whole corner here from M ark S m ith , he used to be a r ich bachelor in F ort E r ie and h e owned all the m stores on Jar v is Street, and h e owned all th is property ... and he wanted to sell it to m e w ith noth ing down, it w as all rented, e ve ryth ing was rente d , yes I would have been living h e r e . . . so noth ing down I coul d have made the payments, I coul d have been a millionaire h e r e .. . th is whole cor ne r and then h e offered me some place s in the south end there on Forsyth and Waterloo, there are apertment houses on that s id e , no apartme n t houses in front and t h e n a h ouse in t h e back . . . and h e offered i t ( to m e f o r eleven thousand dollars , with noth ing down, a n d a l l r e n t e d , because he started to go t o Flo rida at t h a t t ime e v e r y w inter a n d h e d id n't want the t r o u ble w ith o w n ing them . . . all h e want e d was the interest coming in ... he d idn't care how much pricipal you paid as long as that int e r e s t was coming in and it was paid u p and t h is Jamie , that's Ja m ie's F oodland, well h is fath e r ca m e along and paid fifteen thousand dollars fo r those apart m ents about three weeks after he offered the m to m e and I could have sold it to him . . . so I lost four thousand dollars r ight there in a matter of w eeks. N.F: A t one t i m e F ort E r ie was a bootlegging centre. P.D: Oh yes. they had both , bootlegging and rum running all along t h e way from C osy Dell c l e a r down here to these docks, yes t h e y used to load boats so they could take them to Cuba, oh yes and st raight over to Buffalo. N.F: That's a very fast t r ip . . P..D: They s mu ggled C h inamen over and everyth ing. (14) �( N.F: When would that have been that they moved the C h inese, was that before the rum running ? P .D: Well these were pretty well all going on around the same t ime. N.F: It was around the s a m e t i m e ? P.D: Yes , I don't know if it is to be believed o r not but from what I hear . .. they tell m e they used to put the m in burlap bags t o take t h e m over by boat , and then if the C oast Guard or anyone should c o m e along . . . t h e y w o u l d j u s t du m p the m i n the r iver . . . just let the m go ... then they used to have this . .. where the school is down here at the . sh ipyar d , the m a r ina is . .I never s a w it but they claim that they have tunnels right unde rneath t o g o into that building . . . ! heard about it but I never d id g e t to see it . N.F: That w ould have bee n the B il t m o r e C lub at that t i m e ? P.D: N o , it was s o m e k ind of a hotel, B il t m o r e certainly sounds l ike it , s o m e k ind of a c lu b , and then t h e y ' d tell m e that this place of F rank P a t t ison, had tunnels , reme m b e r these k ids here a few years ago , d iscovered t h e open ing f o r a tunnel i n there . . . w e l l t h a t i s w h e r e ( t h e y u s e d to store these C h ina m e n . . . and then t h e y w ould t a k e the m out and b e off w it h t h e m. N.F: It w ouldn't be not iceable at all, so bootlegging w as popular ? P.D: All over town .. . espec ially in the w e s t end, up around H o r t on S t e el there . . . pretty near e v e r y one of t h e m s ide streets was a bootlegger one right after the o t h e r , on both s ides . . . w e w e r e just talking the other day , Fish Thom pson is gone I guess, that seems to have cleaned up all the bootleggers around here , in this part of Fort E r ie . N.F: For Fort E r ie itself it may have. P.D: Where was I up in the R idgeway Leg ion the other day and a girl was saying yes there are bootlegger s around yet, because I know three in C rystal Beach ... well that's just normal because that's a su m me r resort ... s o m e th ings never change in C rystal Beach, that's where they put the welfare in the w inter t ime. N.F: Did you go t o E r ie B e ach ? P.D: Oh , yes . .. that w as , mother used to hook up the horse and buggy (15) �( and she had s o m e friends that were in the ice business out there where w e used to t ie u p the horse, and then we'd walk from there down the lake . . . a b ig w ide c e ment walk, and w alk all down through the park . . . the b ig Dance Hall, they tore that down, but it used to be a natu ral beac h , just a beaut iful beac h , and everyth ing w as really natural then and p icnics . . . that is where we used to have all the p icnics, l ike any women's outfit wanted a picnic why they used to have their picnics there on a S unday or any day . N.F: I t m ust have been busy. P .D: O h , yes sure it w a s , well that was a real place ... they had the train . running from t h e F er ry B oat out to the.. F erry boat run ning to E r ie Beach , and they h a d t h e boat g o ing over . . . and that was just f ifty cents ... she and I used to r ide over and back just for the boat r ide , we never g o t off on the other s id e . N.F: P.D: ( W e r e t h e r e m any bus inesses i n F or t E r ie ? Oh yes, t h is here J a r v is S t reet was the m a in place in t h i s , the no rth e n d. N.F: I t has always been l ike that ? P.D: Yes , J a r v is S t reet w as t h e m ai n t h ing, but there w e r e quite a few cloth ing stores and th ings . . . you could buy anyth ing . . . today you can't buy nothing h e r e , when they got down t o hav ing two b ig stores Loblaws and t h e A&P , later on and that' s n o t too long ago, but then t h e mall was built and then t h o s e p l a c e s d isappeare d , t h e LG . A. was the next biggest one to c ome in, has to do okay it's the only store left to buy anything in, and Brun tons they started down on Jarvis S treet . . . ! suppose most of them are doing fair but now they have got these b ig stores up in R idgeway and I th ink that they w ill hurt someone .. . ! don't know why they would put two b ig stores like that into one s mall area, and so close together . .. yes w e had three drug stores here at this end at one time on Jarvis Street . . . now we are lucky to have one, we d idn't have none for quite a wh ile. N.F: What were the drug stores ? P.D: There w as C ornell w as here . .. and C a m m was down below ... and in ( (16) �the m iddle one was Lons berry . . . three drug stores right the othe r side of Jarvis S t reet, but then we didn't have anything for quit e a wh ile until the I D A ca me in , well that's about all I know. N.F: Everyth ing helps , everyth ing adds g reatly, when did they take the roundhouse down, from the M ich igan C entral Yard? P.D: Oh they tore that down . . . 1960 is when the yard closed, and then they had one engine working here ... and I worked h e re for th ree years after that, I worked till 1963, C la r ence Benne r and I.. .he just died, he used to live over here on Jarvis Street .. �he and I worke d alone u p here for about three yea rs after ... then that's when I went to Welland and he took h is pens ion . .. a n d then they tore the rou ndhouse dow n r i g h t a w a y, they t o r e every thing down. N.F: There is noth ing left there now at all? P.D: Noth ing, noth ing but we eds and the snow, I don't know if the snow is gone t h e r e now o r not but there was some left there not too long ago . . . the town backs rig h t up at the end of Jarvis Stre et and dumps all t h e snow, oh h ell they dump it back way up h igh, it ( it stays t h e r e .. . well t h ere is a s t ay s cold ... lot of snow there in June, lots of t im e s . N.F: Th a t is diffe rent t oo. P.D: But th e G ra h am M a nufactur ing C ompa ny, t h a t is whe r e t h e r oun dh o u s e was . N.F: It must have been a big phy s ica l structure . P.D: Oh it was hug e , it used t o hold abou t twelve o r th irteen steam engines and then they had the tu rn table you see� .. it could turn th e m and run them into any stall you w ished .. :well it went from Phipps S t reet pretty near over t o Jarvis S treet, it's shape went around like that, like a g reat big half moon. N.F: That is huge. P.D: It held a lot of engines .. . and there were a lot of men work ing there and then those steam engines they had cinder p its�;�they were;-. . they would run the engine over these pits and then use a shaker bar and they would shake all the cinders out of the engines . .. ( (17) �' ·-� ( and they would have t o shovel them out . .. and then towards the end they had a . . . they could hump the engines and they and bucket s , w ith an elevator for them to go on, more automatic instead of doing it by hand . .. that's when they started to do away w ith the men.. . then they had to have men in the coal docks too, they worked there load ing and such . . . but the coal docks weren't used for long aft e r that . . . it led to a lot of unem ploy m ent. N.F: F o r t Erie has grow up qu ite a bit , and grown out from what it was? P.D: F ort E r ie never s e e m e d to populate too m u ch though , it went along back in the old days there was th is fu r n itu r e store and old man A t w ood owned it , he and th e m , they w e r e all the reeves and c oun c il m en and the m ayor . . . and they never wanted nothing to come in . . . they j u st w a nted the i r l ittle old tow n that th ey could r u n by th e m selves . . . a n d t h e y w oul dn't allow an ything else i n h ere ... and that i s w h y it d idn't build up. N.F: ( That is a sh a m e . P.D: A n d w h e n th e F le et c o m e in . . . well, that helped a lot a n d see durin g th e war ti m e they brought in so many outsiders lik e form Que bec, a n d all out th r ou gh th e w este rn provinces ... j u st th e s a m e a s my w ife c a m e . . . well that is a lot of w h at helped populate F ort E rie . N.F: I s u p pose that a lot stayed afte rwar ds, yes . P.D: A lot of th e m afte r the war was ove r th ey l i k e d it here bette r th an out in the w e s t s o m e plac e , or whereve r they had c o m e from . . . so a lot of the m stayed h e r e . . . outs ide of that the populat ion would never have e x panded. N.F: Was the a m alga m a t ion itself a popular idea ? P.D: Oh yes, well it started off in three sect ions . . Jike there was . . . they took B ridgeburg away and they made it F ort Erie North . . . and they called the other end, the original F ort E r ie , that was F ort E r ie South ... and where A magari was they called it Fort E r ie West .. . that is how it started ...and then eventually we all, named it all Fort E r ie ... just l ike they merged it all the same way as they d id when they brought in Reg ional Government. . . yes see all of a sudden ( (18) �( here we are these three places and they are all merged together l ike that . N.F: Wh en you were young a n d l iving out on Sunset, what is now S unset would you have gone to S t evensville for any of your shoppi9g or would you have c o m e into F ort Erie? P.D: Oh well at that t i m e th ere was the only pl �ce you could go to get any feed was the feed m ill, and there was only one in Stevensville and R idgeway, if you wanted to get anyth ing, say you r grain ground up or anyth ing there w as noth ing in F o rt Erie so you went eith er to S t eve ns v ille o r R id g e way ;; Stevensville an d our . then there was hotels h a lfw ay between p la ce: .. there was one out here on R id gem o un t Road, that used to be a hotel..:and of course that was the horse and buggy days, why they c�Ued t hem half-way houses::. when the far m ers would come home, there was a hotel in Stevensville and when they come hom e by the time an hour or so had passed they would be at this half-way house, and they would stop over there ( ... and then they could continue on hom e : .. if they come from Ridgeway, there was another one up wher e I think t hey called that Stonemill Road now, that used to be Windmill Point but t h e y call it Stonemill Road now, and there was one up here right near the Dominion, the corner of Do minion and Windmill, no w that was a half-way house, there and then you could I'd hea r d that ter m before and I never knew exactly what t hey were if you come from Ridgeway you could stop come on home. N.F: referring to. P.D: These people would have farms, and do their far ming too::. and they would run their l ittle saloon, but you see they weren't crowde d like they a r e today, they h a d t h e o l d spittoons; and liquor used to be maybe ten cents a.:-: maybe two ounces for a dime:::nickel beers, that's how the old t i m ers has their fun; they had fun out of it.;: they had a lot of fun:;:and my mother when she wanted to go shopping she went to F ort Erie, and she gathered up her eggs; and her butter, which she w ould make in a roll; she had these wooden pound things, (19) �( she could make it u p in pounds ... she would make some up in pounds but that was just for a few odd customers she had, and the ones that she took into the store , would be a round roll, these she would take her wooden ladle and m ark the m , you know , make them look good, then she would wrap it, or those, up into t issue paper and one week or so she would come down Bowen Road, now it wasn't under the subway, that subway was not built in those days... you had to go slant ing across the tracks there out at, out at P e t it Road ... where the U n ion C entre is , where M iller's Auto W reckers is ... there is where you kept bear ing to the left, and that went r ight s t raigh t d o w n and clea r ing across all those railroad tracks . . . u n t il you hit beh in d t h e R io Vist a Golf C ourse, and that is where you would c o m e d o w n i s right there, t h a t w a s t h e B o w e n R oad, a n d t h a t w a s the only was that you could get into t o w n . . . on t h is side . . . then there was a store u p here on Central A venue, Hanses S tore they calle d it, t w o brothers they h a d it , and m y m o t h e r would take h e r but t e r ( in t h e r e and h e r e g g s and s t u f f and she would get her groce ries, and then they would w e igh u p the bu t t e r and stuff . . . well m aybe t h is w e ek she m ight o w e f ifty cents or a dollar . . . well that would be on the book . . . you never paid it, no cash handled . . . and the next time she w ould c o m e d o w n and come around the other way on t h e Gil m o r e R o a d , b y the F le e t there . . . and M alcol m 's S tore was over t h ere, h e was a j u dge at one t ime, Judge M alcolm r ight across from t h e Grand Trunk Hot e l now, o n t h e corner h e had a store, it has b urned down now . .. and she would do the same thing there take in her butter and her eggs and stuff ... and there would be a bill there maybe when she got all through he would owe her a dollar, well then they would let that go for the next week . . . and that is how she worked both of these stores ... and then she had d ifferent houses w h ere they m ight just w ant a pound or t w o or a dozen eggs , and then she used to drop t h e m off at the house for the m .. . and I can just r e m e m ber when I w as young maybe she would buy me a candy and a pack of gum, that was a lot back then ... it was a lot d ifferent (20) �( then, than it is now . N.F: Yes that is for sure. P.D: Oh yes, and then w e had the trip . . . to Crystal Beach . .. we always went to Crystal Beach on F armer's P icnic . . . they always had a farmer's picnic for the far m ing boys, so we would got a day out of school for that . . . all us country ones . . . and we would all go u p to Crystal Beach for t h e F arm er's P icnic, and you got cut rate prices on some of the things and then you would meet these g irls fro m Buffalo these A m ericans would come over here and they used to n ickname us farmer boys, they used to k i d us about be ing farmer boys.. . and then when w e could see them they used to have long dresses, well they would kind of s h o r t e n their dresses, and they had what they would call j azz g arte r s, and they wore the m below t h e ir knee . .. they were a s ilk garter about two inches w ide and they would put th e m on and boy we c o u l d see them these j azz garters and you really thought you were look ing at s o m e t h ing ... we never r e m e mbe r too much o f t h a t , any m o r e ( the o t h e r d a y and I I w as looking at an old class picture j u s t realized t h a t pretty n e a r a l l of t h e m are dead now, o f all t h e ones I w e n t to school w it h , s o m any of them are dead. N.F: W hen you first m o v e d h e r e to C entral A v e n u e , who were y o u r n e ighbo u r s ? P.D: Oh , N.F: Th is would have alw ay s been c o m m e rc ial then. P.D: Yes th is was always in the business section, the c o m m ercial d istrict I never had no n e ighbours here. here . . . see t h is here building at one time was owned by John D . James he owned where the C re d it Union is here , well that was h is general store , that is where my mother used to c o m e shopping too, he had a ge neral store here , and behind here where m y garde n is , well that w as h is lu m ber m il l , he had a l ittle lum ber m ill there and this was h is barn . . . so then after that the Ziff brothers come here, you know Louis Ziff, they came here and they built it up a little b it and they had a gas pu m p out front , one of those round c ircular ones, that was right off the front here . . . well they d idn't run it very long (21) �( and R oss S m it h bought it and he r e m odelled it and he m ade an apart m ent upstairs, and this level h e fixed u p for the Junio r Chambe r . . . the J u n io r Chamber had th is for, well they had it when I came here, and they had it about a year after I came here, and they rented it off from me until they got that golf cou rse u p there . . . so they bu ilt a lit tle buil d ing of their own up there, a clubhouse like and they left here . . . and after they left here I just put a few par t i t ions in here for storage like I've got now some on the other side here and I've got a pool table , and I've got a collect ion of hats here . . . well once in a wh ile s o m e one moves away and b r ings m e another hat . . . s o I don't know if w e get any older the guy next door that bought F ickels why he is talk ing abo u t buy ing th is . . . so I don't know , I don' t lik e the thought of mov ing into an apa r t m e n t , i know I ' d b e los t , I ' ve g o t a workshop h e r e a n d I garden a n d I t h r o w snow around , sit u n d e r that big maple tree, it may be an old shack but I th ink we would be los t . N.F: ( I bet you would be . P .D: A n apa r t ment is j u s t a place to live . . . the way I've got it f ig u r e d every t i m e I got my vacat ion I w e n t t o T e x a s to see m y brother and m y other brother is in F lo r ida, they stay there for s ix months, and I can go e ither place and that is what an apart m ent would be good for, you wouldn't have to look after a house, the sa m e way that w e do now , wor rying abou t fre ezing pipes and whatnot , I could just lock h e r u p and not have t o worry . . . we jus t came back from W innipeg, we went out t o see the w ife's. sister she is s ic k , and I j u s t d rove my car out there and back . N.F: You have been happy w i t h F or t E r ie then ? P.D: Oh yes , well I'd have t o be that's the only place that I ever worked, well everyth ing was always home t o m e , I never had far to go t o work, w h e n I w a s young c o u l d even walk u p t o the subway, so in fact if the w eather was too bad I could always walk , just straight up Jarvis S treet and I ' d be on the yard . . . so that wasn't too bad, and the hotels in those days . . . the N e w York Central used to be (22) �pa id on the tenth and the twenty-fifth . . . and the C . N . used to get paid on the f ifteenth a n d the th i r tieth , so the hotels always had fou r good days . N.F: They certa inly would . P.D: They had fou r good days a m onth anyhow you know .. ;and then betw een t i m es if you wanted a drink, and you d idn't have any m oney . . . why then you would have to charge it, s i m ply put it on the books . . . all these stores used to be pr ivate stores and you w ould go down and buy you r grocerie s and ju s t charge it .. . it was all cha rges, there was no cash and c a r ry . . . you charged e ve r y th ing , you had y o u r own book . . . the storekeeper w ould have a w h ole shelf o r shelves of boo ks , with your I got what i n i t ials o n , you so you w e n t in and y ou got you r m ea t , w a n t e d to eat during the w ell then on payday, when that c a m e , week, a n d charge it y ou all. . . you went down and you had to pay these bills, by the t i m e you paid all t h e bills and had th r e e o r fou r dolla rs wor t h of bee r , you we re broke again .. . and you would be back char ging again , and that is the way it w o r ked... but t oday now with these big sto res now you can't cha r g e and that is t he only t rouble.. . but all these sto res were all run on cred it, N.F: Yes you would know everybody , but that is w h y one. And you would know eve r y body. P.D: every and pa y day s used to be t wo weeks, and som e between paydays t im e s they w ou l d run ove r , s ixteen day s before you got p a id . . . and the pay was s m all , so after you got your b il ls paid you d id n 't have noth ing left . . . well you charged in cloth ing stores and butcher shops , and grocery s t o res everyth ing was charge d ; well really a lot of them went brok e , s o m e g u y s y o u k n o w wouldn't pay , they always cla imed that the best paid on the railroad was the enginee r , and yet they were the hardest m e n to get the m oney out oL: the hardest fam ilies to get the m oney out of, it was always l ike that : . : a n d l ike you take the section men they were the lowest paid, and they would pay up the i r b ills r ight up, better than the engineer d i d : N.F: You would have known your politic ians back then; (23) �( P.D: Oh , yes, all of them , if you got into any t rouble in them days you just called up your M e m be r of Parlia m e n t , and he'd tell you . . . oh forget about it I'll have it fixed up for you t omor row . N.F: Is that r igh t i well that was good. P.D: S o m e of the names are Billy W illson in R idgeway , well he was a conse rvative . . . and m y fathe r was r a is ed as a liberal. . . the wi:. m e n didn't have no votes in t h e m days a n d I r e m e m be r when s h e got her f irst vote . . . she told him that she was going to go out and k ill you r vote . . . w h ich they w ouldn't d o , first they w ould talk it over and dec ide . . . but that w as h o w she would t alk , she w as going to do h is vote in now . . . then aft e r B illy W illson there was B ill H ouck , h e ran a big dairy far m on the N iagara Boulevard so he w as t h e next m e mbe r of parlia m ent for around h e r e . . . s o everybo d y k n e w h i m too, because he w as the s am e k in d of a fellow , o n l y they w e r e m o r e t e m pe rance . . . B illy W illson h e al w ay s playe d g ol f at E r ie Downs . . . and then you take l ike aft er they lost t h e be er license and the liquor ( license years ago, then they h a d r o o m ing houses, like the Barnea H ouse d o w n here, that w as j u s t a roo m ing house and the Bucket I call it , what is the real nam e , I've forgotten . . . well I call it the Bucket anyway . . . a n d that was just a r oom ing h o u s e , everyth ing w e nt d r y , the hotels and such they couldn't sell o r serve anything alcoholic at all a t that time . . . and t h e n l ik e m y father if h e got sick a n d h e wanted a bottle o f w h iskey o r anything . . . h e used t o g o t o Doc Buell, go to Doc Buell o u r fam ily doctor in S tevensville . . . and he had t o get a pres c r i p t ion, and then h e would have to sen d that to M ontreal, oh yes, h e would get the w h iskey by the gallon . . . yes h e would g iv e you a prescript ion for a gallon of w h iskey . . . send to M ontreal . .. and then the mailman . . . he would be watc h ing for the m a il ma n for days and days and days . . . until the mailman came along and he would have the jug of w h iske y , all in a box . . . so it would take maybe three weeks before he could get h is liquor . . . that's the way they used to get their l iquor in them days you see in M ontreal you could b u y w h iskey , but not in Ontario . . . and there is something ( (24) �( else I've got to tell you about . . . you talk about bootleggers . . . there used to be about e igh t or n ine book makers around town. N.F: You mean here in F ort E r ie ? P.D: Oh yes . . . if you go r ight on up t o this here place r ight behind my place here . . . this long b u il d ing . . . and this was run by the Hawk ins fa m ily, you know that is old Harry Hawk ins . . . and they would have boards . . . big black boards l ike you would have in a school house . . . all along these walls . . . and each blackboa r d would have a Racet rack on it . . . Hialeah , P im l ic o , all d ifferent Racetracks . . and then there was a guy walking on t h e platfo r m , all these blackboards were raised up a bit . . . and t h is guy would have earphones on, and he w as getting all t h e results . . . and they would have all these horses marked on these black boards, d ifferent h orses for d iffe rent tracks . . . and they had a regular w icket w h e r e you could go u p and make y o u r bets . . . fifty cents, fifty cents was the lowest bet I th ink you could make . . . fifty cents, dollar, t w o dollars , whatever you wanted t o bet, but fifty cents was the lowest and w e ' d c h ip together a qua r t e r a p iece ( and bet a horse . . . and t h is guy u p on the platfo r m he would tell you as the horses w e r e r u n n ing . . . he'd call t h e m off j u s t the same as Daryl W ells . . . and when the race was over h e would mark a ring around the m and that was the w inne r . . . and then eventually h e would get the p r ices, and h e would mark t h e p r ices d o w n . . . and you went u p t o the w icket and you cashed your bet . . . you see there w as a book here and there was one down at the foot of C ou r t w r ight S treet . . . and then up to the south end there were three or four of the m . . . there were a lot of the m u p there . . . but they w e re pract ically all f inanced by the Hawkins , you see they w e re quite wealthy people in F or t E r ie , a n d getting w e alth ier . N.F: That is the same fam ily then that owned the Queen's Hotel ? P.D: Yes . . . and that house on the corner, you know behind the Queen's Hotel. . . r ight across fro m the Legion . . . well she used to run a book room in the base m ent of that house . . . and then they had a n old building that was on the north s ide . . . and you used to go upstairs ( (25) �( and they had a w o m a n running a book there . . . l ike the h igher class of people went down in t h e base m e n t , where it was n ic e , and she used to run it herself . . . and then she had th is oth e r girl run it upstairs at the other . . . and that was for the lower class of people . . . and then behind, r ight bac k , across the street from the E r ie Lane, I call it the E r ie Lane, it's G ra m my ' s now . . . right across from R obe's Gas Station, there was an old build ing across th e alley th ere, F orsyth S t reet runs th is w ay , east and west, on F orsyth S t reet there was a b ig long building there was a book room there. N.F: I never realized that it was that b ig a business, they must have had A m erican customers also . P.D: Oh y e s , it was a b ig bus iness and that is where a lot or most of the custo m e r s come fro m , the A m e r icans . . . but it was always busy . . . and they must have been mak ing m oney becau s e they never stopped . . . and t h e c h ief of police h e never bothered the m . N.F: P.D: ( Who was ch ief at that t i m e ? A ndy G r iffin was t h e c h ie f when they were really w ide open . . . and of course he was a good friend of the Hawk ins . . . but w e n e v e r had too m any police . . . I r e m e m be r one police run the whole t o w n , d a y a n d n ig h t . . . old C a r t e r , he used a M odel A ca r , a n d he w o u l d be police b o t h n ig h t a n d d a y . . . and t h e n t h e r e w e r e s o m e before that .. . like I got arrested for rid ing a b icycle over here on Phipps S t reet , on the s idewalk . . . on m y bicycle . . . we took a ride one S u n day m e and another fello w , and we got u p on the sidew alk , boy that was because the streets was all rough and stones, so we got u p on the sidewalk, oh that was a nice s m ooth ride and we only rode about a short d istance and he w aved a newspaper at us . . . s it t ing on the veranda . . . old Dowd I th ink was h is name, he waved a newspaper at us and he c o m e out and h e took ou r names and addresses, and give us a su m mons . . . s o w e d idn't know , I took it home and Jezz did I get a t r i m m ing . .. ! had to g ive this su m mons to m y father . . . and the other fellow , a neighbou r who lived next door, h e had to take his home to h is father . . . and the court house was right across here someplace, over by the firehall here . . . and my mother c o m e ( (26) �( down w ith m e in the horse and buggy , and we stopped at the railroad and m y fathe r had told us to stop, and I guess he gave u s all the money h e had in h is pocket . . . well we come down and theycharged u s four dollars apiece . . . well my fathe r in the m days w as only g e t t ing about two o r three dollars a day . N.F: Wow , that is a lot of money . P.D: Well you know what we had to do then . . . when we got back on the far m was do a little work . . . and I do m ean a l it tle work . N.F: B r idgeburg always had a fire station, or c o m pany ? P.D: Yes, all horses and f ire wagons . . . over here r ight by Don Dean's . . . Benners us ed to have t h e ir team . . . and they had the harnesses drop right over the horses . . . that was it . . . horses would j ust go crazy when they would hear the fire bell. N.F: It m u s t have been exc iting at that t i m e . P.D: But I was pretty young for t h e m days to know too much about th e m , I j u s t can re m e mbe r because I h a d a n uncle w h o lived on P h ipps Street, a n d we u s e d to c o m e down and play cards at n ight at th is uncle's . . . and I r e m e mbe r he belonged to the fire c o m pany when that happened, and that is how I r e m e mbe r e d . N.F: D i d they m o v e the f ir e s tat ion when they got the trucks ? P. D : Y e s they put it in the town hall. . . that is where it was moved ove r on the other s ide of the town hall, and they had j u s t a s m all plac e , i f y o u h a d a fire m e e t ing, t h e f ire m e n couldn't all g e t in i t , used to have to back the trucks out . . . and m ake a lit tle spot to have a meet ing . . . and then this used to be the town tool shanty r ight here, that is when I moved h e r e , they used to make repa irs here, and it was st ill a tool shanty . . . and then afte r they moved over on Lew is Street, where they are now , well then they made a fire hall out of this . N.F: So that is when that was done. P.D: Yes, so they put the front on first for the trucks . . . then G u y V iolino, he put the extentions on it . . . he put the last one on . . . so we've got { (27) �( a n ice little hall over there now . . . we had a b ig s t reet dance here, on Satu r day n ight . . . but it raine d at eleven o'clock at n igh t , neve r rained at S tevens v ille , o r R idgeway , and it just s plashe d down h e r e it s t a r t e d at eleven o'clock . . . j u s t s h e n everybody w a s gett ing p r i m ed up . . . everybody was rar ing to go and get out and dance , just got started, and the rain started, it just splashe d down and last e d about an hou r , just enough that everybody went h o m e , and spoiled the even ing , the whole thing, we lost a lot of money on that. N.F: F o r sure y e s , how long has the c o m pany in the north e n d here, and all the c o m pan ies been having the ir parades and dances ? P .D: . The street dance we h a d here . . th is is only about the second one w e had recently . . . b u t w e intend to have one yearly n o w . . . and N u m be r T w o C o m pany u s e d t o have dances a t t h e Racetrack, that w a s years ago at the B e r t ie F a ir as I was tell ing you . . . but that had to be a long t i m e ago because I was only a k i d . N.F: ( They've been do ing it f o r a long t i m e the n . P.D: N u m be r One C o m pany , they've been hav ing that J a m boree there for quite a w h ile . . . number one handles it but we all alway s j o ined in w ith w o r k ing w it h t h e m , all the c o m panies go in and then there are a lot of c o m panies f r o m t h e s tates that come ove r . .. they have quite a parade because w e are always on the front of t h e parade . . . pretty well i n the front, and w e are back dr inking beer in the park here and the parade is s t ill c o m ing out of the school grounds where they fo r m u p . . . so it is a long parade, it goes clear down W in te r m u t e across t h e N iagara Bouleva r d , and t h e n u p Gilmore a n d into the g rounds . . . so it really is a long parade , and they have that every year. N.F: They really had a good parade in 1 9 5 7 , the firemen really fit in well for F o r t E r ie's Centennial Year, the firemen worked extra hard that year. P.D: Oh hell, they were up o n top of my roof here, people were all over everywhere when that w ent by . . . well that w as a b ig one . . . that w as really a b ig parade . ( N.F: The bridge , C entral A v e nue b r idge was u p then wasn' t it ? (28) �{ P.D: Yes . . . yes, that w as u p . N.F: I've heard that it was a hu ge, long, long parade . P.D: O h , yes it was . . . well yes they brought all those g irls from M c Van's you know, M c Van's over in Buffalo at the corner of H ertel and N iagara . . . M c Van's they have torn that building down now . ; -. but that used t o be a real . . . all the m ovie stars from H ollywood used to c o m e and stop there on their vacations . . . because Mr. M cV a n had a r e a l good d r a g w ith a l o t of b i g shots . . . a n d I m e t R ochester who used to be w ith and appear with Jack Benny . . . he came over here j u s t to stop in for one weekend . . . and he ended u p s t a y ing the whole w eek . . . he'd say " w h a t a good t i m e you fellows have around here" and e v e r y body was buying h i m drinks . . . but I danced w ith the K ing S is t e r s o v e r t h e r e , all three of t h e m . . . and g ir l w h o u s e d t o s ing f o r C a m pbell's Tomato I danced w ith .. a S o u p � oh it u s ed to b e q u i t e a t i m e . . . a n d t h e y would j u s t l e t their h a i r d o w n because they w e r e really on a vacation . . . a n d Mr. M c V a n u s e d t o pay them . . . h e place would b e j u s t j a m m e d pac ked . . . w e l l , pr o bably h e g av e { them enough for t h e i r m eals a n d a few d r inks a n d s tuff like t ha t , t h ey d id n ' t w a n t no b ig m on e y . . . they was j u s t h av i n g of on vacation . . . and d id n ' t have t o pay for a good t i m e , sort it� .. so there w e re a bunch of t he m , a couple of hay rack loads of t h e m that w e n t in t h a t p ar a de , that w e n t by here . . . and t h e m a s t e r of c e r e m on ies . : . h e was h e r e . and in on that too . . . bu t e v ery body kn e w one another . J ' d t ake s o m ebody ove r , some of my rela t ives , maybe a d istant relat ive who lived far from here and we'd go over there to M c V an's . . . and I' d get the master of cere m onies behind s t age and I would tell h i m they w ere here v is i ting from such and such, and he would get u p on t h e s t age . ; ;and announce their names and they couldn't figure out how in the w o rld he knew this , and h e would make them stand u p . : . oh , and that w as the way t h e place worked, it was really interes t ing . . . everyone s i m ply had a good t i m e . N.F: Yes I bet they di d, did F ort Erie go th rough a rat ioning period in the Second W orld War ? ( P.D: Oh yes , everyth ing was ratione d . (29) �( N.F: D id it really get to a severe point in F ort E r ie ? P.D: Well nobody suffered too m u ch . . . because you was trad ing one coupon off to somebody else for anoth e r c oupon . . . and gasoline, well you could get some of these places they got the gasoline somehow or other . . . you could even buy phony gasol ine t ickets . N.F: I never real ized F o r t E r ie got involved in those th ings. P.D: Oh yes, we had a fellow h e r e , right down at the end of the street here . . . he had a gas stat ion and hell, he had to take those t ickets and put them in the bank too, those t ickets after they took t h e m b a c k in, y o u k n o w a f t e r t h e y bought g a s . . . b u t he h a d coupons they would feel just l ike that plate, a th ick paper plate . . . but I wouldn't take no chances by going t o a ny other gas station, I'd always g e t m y g a s from h i m . . . and I guess m ay be t h a t was what h e want e d . N.F: I t sure could have been y e s . P.D: I ' d always take them back to h i m . . . and then I used to . . . when I was w o r k ing the ra ilroad , n igh t s , I used to work for A rch ie M ac Glashen . . . ( h e run the F ort E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . down at the foot o f J a r v is . N.F: That w as the name of i t , the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany ? P.D: Y e s the F o rt E r ie Dock C o m pany . . . h e had p iles of coal in there . . . stoker coal, h e used t o g e t it in there by the barge loads , th is stoker coal. . . well then I used to run that big crane, that c rane had a n inety foot b o o m on it . . . and I used to g o down and help him run that c rane . . . m y brother ran it first . . . when the war broke out he had ju s t got h is c o m m e r c ial license . . . s o they grabbed h i m and took h i m in the A ir Force r ight away . . . so I used to go down there . . . this M ik e S t o r m t h a t h a s this contract bus iness h e r e . . . w e l l he used t o r u n it , b u t he h a d a business of h is own, a n d he j u s t couldn't p u t in a l l that time . . . so between m y young brother and I , we used to run the c rane fo r A rc h ie MacGlashen . . . and then he was selling stokers, and putting them in . . . well, I used to go around putt ing in stokers, in people' s furnaces i n m y spare t i m e . . . a n d then we were loading scrap iron, we would push in a . . . the railroad would push in a whole bunch of e m pty cars down there . . . and w e would have a barge load of scrap ( (3 0) �iron c o m e in . . . and we had a magnet, for the crane, and w e used to p ick it u p . . . and load all these cars up, because it was always shipped by rail . . . the scrap iron was during the war . . . oh that was a . . . really a going concern down there . . . that was really s o meth ing . . . he done a g reat business down there . . . and then h e used to have this sand dock too . . . s i licate sand they called it, that's something else they used t o ship out too . . . W illia m s , Bud W illia m s of the W illiams G old R e f inery, they had a share into that, you s e e M ac G lashen h e h a d I th ink fifty-one percent or someth ing s o h e could h a v e control l ing interest of it . . . and W illiams had the rest . . . but M acGlashen he operated it all, and it was a l ittle extra spending money for me .. .I'd be working n ights and oh, s o m e t i m e s you would get an extra two or three hours sleep at n ight on t h e r a ilroad on those benc h e s , those h ar d benches . . . that is w h e r e I got arthritis I th ink . . . sleeping o n t h e m benches . . . but hell in t h e m days w h e n you w e r e young you only needed t w o or three hours sle e p , and you were all s e t to go . . . as far as the m oney you m ade down there , it didn't d o no good . . . you would spend it maybe before you got h o m e . . . o r charged that much, whatever you made you would have it p u t o n t h e book s o m e place . . . y e s there w e re a lot of boats used t o c o m e in h e r e , and then they brought soft coal in there, and it u s e d t o come f r om Toledo, Ohio, boats run ning back and fo rth , that w a s the old coal dock they called it . s t ok e r s . . e v e r y b o d y in t o w n that c o u l d affo rd one had a c o a l stoker . in t h e i r furnace . . . a good i d e a . . . oh it w a s a l l r ight i n t h e m days unt il the coal got bad, and then, see I was gett ing telephone calls all the time to come and fix people ' s stokers . . . they got s tones , the stones got m ixed u p in it, in the coal . . . MacG lashen had gravel and stuff down there too . . . they used to get the gravel r ight across the r iver here , y e s they could take gravel r ight out, just over across the r iver, and h e w ould b r ing a scow load over there and h e was selling gravel there then too . . . and then the k ids were throw ing the gravel around these stone p iles and coal p iles . . . well, in the furnace then, the stones would work their way against the stoker wor m and shear the p in (3 1) �( off . . . then they w ould be calling me to come and help t h e m . . . they have got no heat . . . and t h e k ids would freeze to death . . . if I was h o m e a n d wasn't working I ' d h a v e to g e t u p i n the m iddle of the night and go out and fix s o m e body's stoker . N.F: That would be a m is e rable job, yes. P .D: Well you know , you didn't m ind it then when you were young, and working was s i m ply a w ay of life . . . if you weren' t doing someth ing else . . . you were work ing . . . but th is A rc h ie M ac G lashen he was a real n ice fellow though, yes anytime I needed any m oney, why, I'd j u s t go down to h im. N.F: I hear that h e d id a lot for the com munity too. P.D: Yes h e was a great C h a m be r of C o m merce man t oo, F ort E r ie ' s C h a m b e r of C o m m e r c e . . . h e was a g o o d man . . . h e c o u l d figure i n h is h e a d a s f a s t as y o u c o u l d w ith a pencil . . . an d t h a t man could re m e m be r anyth ing . . . h e had a good m e m o r y , h e w ould s c ratch h is head when h e wanted to call . . . maybe call Ottawa, s o m ebody in Ottawa about a boat load of s o m e th ing, and h e w ould j ust scratch ( his head a l it tle w h ile a n d then he would dial t h e nu m b e r . .. that is the m e m o ry h e had, yes h e was fine . . . well h e helped bu ild the W indsor Tunnel, and how h e got t o F ort E r ie was t h e P eace B r idge . . . see they built the W indsor Tunnel, and if you g o th rough that t r affic tunne l , well t h e r e is a c u r v e in it . . . it goes around a c u r v e , and t h e n int o the U n it e d S tates at D e t r o it . . . and they started from the o t h e r end, a n d t h e y s t a r t e d f r o m th is e n d a n d he t o l d m e w h e n t h e y got together they were only three inches out . . . work ing from both ends underneath the water. N.F: To meet at a point l ike that. P .D: Yes sir, and they worked in com part men ts in that tunnel and all com pressed air you know . . . them guys got well paid, b igger than the ordinary salary, but they were rough , and he told me that there would be men die pretty near every other day, they would clear them out dead . . . they ' d d ie in there . . . and at the end of the week when pay day was . . . that gang that was working that week, you ( (3 2) • . . �( would never have them the next week . . . s o you w ould have to have anothe r gang , all ready to go in, and they would go in in the ir place and t h is other gang would go out at the ir sh ift end and booze up, s pend all the m oney they made, and when the alternate gang would go out , they would do the same th ing . . . and that gang was ready to come back in again . . . but he told m e he had run across a blacks m it h , he needed one of those f o r tools and everyth ing . . . and h e said "the best black s m ith he had was an alcohol ic, he was continuously all the t i m e d r inking, but he could really sharpen ch isels and th ing s , he r eally k n e w h is business about iron " , a n d he w a s a n alcoholic . . . yet h e was one of the best blac k s m iths they ever had, s t r ictly an alcoholic . . . well then aft e r they finished . . . that b ig c rane I was telling you about . . . they moved that from D e t r o i t , they brought it d o w n here a n d it w o r k e d on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . so h e , A rchie, w o r k e d on t h e P e a c e B r idge . . . a n d j u s t the day before he d ie d , h e d ie d o n a S u n d a y , w a t c h i n g tele v is io n , h e l ived on t h e N iagara Boulev a r d , j u s t d o w n below F rench man's C re e k, he d rove out in f r o n t h e r e , ( in front of t h e h o u s e here on C e n t ral A venu e , a n d h e was tell ing m y w ife, h e says " you tell that husband of yours to get that belly off, or he ain't going to last long " , and he w en t home and d r op p e d dead in h is chesterfield t h e next day . N.F: I s n ' t that s o m e t h ing . P.D: B u t h e was really , really good t o m e . . . well l used to help h i m ·out ... wh enever h e wanted help . . . and he would loan me h is car, or t ruck or anyth ing I wanted, I couldn't be w ithout wheels. N.F: It m u s t have been busy down at those dock s , I've never realized how m uch they handled and did. P.D: Now you see that track ran right s traight through . . . r ight up in front of the R oyal Hotel there . . . maybe at one t i m e they took the steel off the tracks , tore it out , but the tracks used to run r ight back in, right back to the end . . . and that wall, started to cave out . . . because w e had that great big boom c rane must have w e ighed tons and t ons . . . and b ig w ide caterp illar treads on it they were huge . . . ( (3 3) �( well, you know , that wall started to sh ift out . . . so I helped h i m on that . . . w e d ig the ground away from the ins ide of the wall . . . and we drilled holes through that c e ment . . . oh the walls were about , two feet thick . . . we d r illed holes th rough that c e m ent and put bolts in and nuts and a cable . . . then w e dug a t rench oh halfway back t o ���·� that dock , we dug m ay b e from here to across the s t r ee t , a good fifty feet . . . dug a t rench about that w id e , maybe e ight inche s to a foot w id e , and d e e p , and filled that w ith stones and rocks and everyth ing and lay e d th is cable in, w ith clamps attached to it, you see the r e were c la m ps on the cable . . . and they would lay it back in, and fill that full o f c e m ent, and put them m aybe s ix feet apart . . . all along the length o f that w hole wall, and then let it d r y , and f ill it in . . . and that is w h a t is h o l d ing that wall today. N.F: That was a good idea. P.D: It is still s olid down t h e r e now . . . well that wall w ill never go u n t il those cables d e t e r iorate . . . that is the only th ing that w ill let it g o , y o u k n o w a l o t o f people d o n ' t k n o w anyth ing about t h a t . . . person ( I was going t o talk t o , I'll s e e h i m at lodge, t h e owner, U t iv i t c h , yes I'll tell h i m . N.F: The dock down there w as that a natural shape or m an- m ade ? P.D: Well, h o w it g o t s t a r t e d I don't know , it was all fille d , they j u s t k e p t filling a n d f illing, t h e y got a l l the d irt t h a t t h e y c o u l d g e t , it was bu ilt w a y u p towards the International B r idge, b u t t h e r e w a s another building at the s o u t h e n d of that dock t o o . . . w h e r e there was a laundry put in there at the south end of the dock one t i m e , they r u n a laundry ther e , a n d t h e r e w a s a carpenter s h e d where they made boxes for the Fleet A irc raft , and a carpenter shop in there too , of course that has been all torn down. N.F: And that is where Her b G ue s s eventually moved into was down there. P.D: No, Herb G ue s s is down ac ross from the Ohio Hotel, down further s till, that w as all filled in, there were two places down there . . . so he got one . . . and different ones lived in the other one, it was M rs . Bard o l that owned E r ie Beach a t one time, she lived i n a little ( (3 4) .• ��..;D% �{ cottage down there, next to H e r b Guess . . . then r ight out here . . . there was a water tank . . . stood r ight out behind t h e garden here, j u s t a big round water tank . . . fifteen feet around maybe , and s e venty feet h igh . . . and when they tore that dow n , to build the other water tank . . . they dropped h e r down, and they cut h e r u p I th ink into three s ilos, and that is what A rc h ie MacGlashen used t o store coal and stuff in aft e r that . . . and that is about all that I can tell you s i r . N.F: Thank you very m u ch for the intervie w , and for all of the interest ing information. (35) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Crystal Beach Subject The topic of the resource Crystal Beach, Ontario Description An account of the resource Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL -LH - Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Neil Findall Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Percy Detenbeck Location The location of the interview. Mr. Detenbeck's home at 545 Central Avenue, Fort Erie Original Format If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Cassette Tape Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Detenbeck, Percy Description An account of the resource Provided here is Percy Detenbeck's interview. He discusses such topics as: The Depression Railroad Recreaction Schools Bootlegging Erie Beach Business and industry Fleet Crystal Beach Amusement Park Politics Hotels and taverns Fire department Fort Erie Centennial World War II Factories and industry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1985 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection 1980s 1985 Centennial Erie Beach factories and industry Fleet Fort Erie Great Depression hotels and taverns Oral history politics railroad recreation schools stores and businesses transcripts world war II