https://www.fepl.ca/localhistory/files/original/973bbd241254c24f48f92d969a2f75ce.pdf 9c00a391f3572aa8df4441bf1804fc27 PDF Text Text This is Shelley Richer intervi e w ing Mr. William Athoe in his hom e a t 3836 Highland Road o n July 26, 1985. S.R: Hello Mr. Athoe , how are you? W.A: I ' m very w ell thank you. S.R: What is your date o f birth ? W.A: M ay the 2nd in 1 9 0 2. S.R: Where w ere you born ? W. A : I w as born on the corner o f Ridge Road and Bertie R oad, in Bert i e To wnship . That's t h e old bri ck house where t h e Fenian R aid w as fought in. S.R: W ere there hospit als then or did the doctors c o m e t o the house or w ere there m i d w i v e s ? W.A: We h a d d o ct ors. There was D r . S chneider i n Ridge w ay and . . . o h he avens, I can't think o f the fello w in S t e vensville n o w . Dr. Buell was ther e , but he c a m e later. Oh, we h ad do c t ors and we w ere advanced a f e w ye ars ahead o f m i dwives I gue ss. S.R: Were there any kind o f hospi t als a t all, h o m e hospitals or anything like that ? W.A: I don't kno w. I kno w w h en my oldest son w as born my wife had t o g o t o Fort Erie t o . . . Mrs. Jim my Quested had a m at erni ty hom e that sh e ran. I t w as a private home and two o f my children w ere born there and the o ther one was born in this house upst airs. S.R: That m a ternity hom e , where w ould that have been in F ort Eri e ? W.A: I believe it w as on Dufferin Stre e t , but I don't kno w the address o f everything anym ore . S.R: Have you lived in the area all your life ? W.A: All but three years that I w as in N e w Y ork City. S.R: Where in Ridge w ay did you grow up? W.A: Well I gre w up on the farm there on the corner of the Bertie Road and Ridge Road. I was there until I was a b oUt sixteen or seventeen. S.R: And then you m oved here ? W.A: And then I w ent to Niagara Falls for a year or t w o and w orked down there, then back t o Ridge w ay and in 1925 I w ent to N e w York City and w ork there '25, '26 and '27. Then I come back here and built this house in '28 and got m arried and have been here every since . S.R: Back then, who w ould have helped you build the house ? W.A: Who w oul� have helped m e ? Well Carl Pooler and his sons w ere (1) �the carpent ers that I had help. J ohn Benner and M orris Huffman w ere t w o brick layers that I had h elping m e . { S.R: C ould you tell m e what s chool you attended and where it is lo cat e d ? W.A: Well, my childhood school days, public school days, w as in number ten and that w as on t op of the hill there do you kno w where Frank ••. N ashes used to b e , or you must kno w where number ten .•. ? S.R: D o you kno w the stre e t ? W.A: Well it w as on the Garrison Road , but it w as just about t w o or thre e hundred yards fro m the Ridge R o ad on the Garrison, Num ber Three High w ay. S.R: Ho w far a w ay fro m your home w ould that have been? W.A: Half a m i l e . S.R: Oh, so it w as just w alking to school then ? W.A: Well, i t w as pre t ty rugged in the w intert i m e when . . . no sno wplo w s or anything ...I m ean big truck sno w p lo w s or anything like that . E verything w as, any banks or anything had to be shovelled out by h and and it w as only horse and buggies or cut t ers anyhow. W alking to school, I kno w we used to walk and be looking down at the fences, the road w as dri f t e d in be t w een the fences and w e ' d be above the { fences looking d o w n at the m. S.R: You still had t o w alk then, there w as no other w ay ? W.A: Y ou had t o w alk, ye ah. There w as no buses, no . . . w ell there w eren ' t any buses that ' s f o r sure ..• no t e a m s or horses o r cutt ers o r w agon sleighs or anything. S.R: D o you kno w approxi m ately what year your school w as built ? W.A: Well, they wouldn't le t you stay I think now they except the m at .•• five years old in schoo l , but they w ouldn't until you w ere six at that t i m e . So I start ed at , when I w as six , and my te achers name w as Miss Gleason. And the teacher be fore her was, originally w ent t o Fort Eri e , and w as Mrs. Oscar Teal , and her name w as Anna Murphy. But I didn ' t go t o Miss Murphy, I w ent to Miss Gleason, but my brothers and sisters all w ent to Anna Murphy whi ch w as Mrs. O s car Teal, later S.R: • • • lived in Fort Eri e , Jack Teal's mother. C ould you describe your school, h o w it was when you w ent and if there w as any changes or anything like that, any additions? ( W.A: Well, the seats w ere, when I first w ent t o school w ere aw ful old and they w ere m ore or less slatted seat s . Boards about that , 2�-3inche s wide and nrobably four of them. And once i n a while one w ould (2) �g o down and the other one w as coming up , you'd get a nice pinch. But later they w ere all rene wed with ne w seat s , all one pie c e w ith ( rounded backs and nice curved seats and everything. The sides w ere w ainscotted up about four feet high, all dark grey colour, and plast er above that . High ceilings, about t w elve feet high I gues s and the h e a t , i n t h e w intertime t h e h e a t w as all up at t h e ceiling and your feet w ere fre e z ing . S.R: H o w did they heat it ? W.A: W i th a big, long w ood stove and the w o od they used t o take and burn, it w as thre e feet long. It w a s long enough you could put three foot w ood in there . The farmers around used to supply the w ood and we kid s alw ays had to c arry i t from the w oodshed built on the b a c k of the school. We had to carry it in and keep a big w ood box full o f w ood out in the boys coatroom. It w as carried from there into the s t o ve, a.nd later they got natural gas around. They had a big long gas pipe in there, with h o les drilled through, that gas used t o come out, and they used t o light that and then put t w o or three blo c ks o f w o od in and turn this gas on and s t art the w ood. And as soon as the w ood got burning they'd turn the gas o f f t o save ( gas. While w e had it, it was very s c arce. There were very fe w w ells around and , but now that later they got a lot o f w ells and it w as pipe d in fro m o ther places t o o and they have m ore of it . I guess . . . ! think the last few years there, quite a few years there, it was heated w ith gas only, no w ood at all . S.R: C o uld you d e s cribe the outside o f your building, like h o w m any room s i t had , colour, anything that you re m e m ber about the building itself ? W.A: W e ll, it w as a light-red bri ck building and it w as bri ck all the w ay as far as what could be brick, all but the roo f and the w indo w s. It w as all one roo m and all the classes w ere fr o'm •.• , that w as be fore grades. They all w ent by readers at that tim e , first , second, third , fourth readers and then they had first and second in e ach one ye t . Y o ur junior fourth, then you went senior fourth and from there you went and tried the entrance examination and if you passed that you w ent to what they called the Continuation S chool here in Ridge w ay, whi ch is the old Masoni c Hall next t o Bickell's S t ore in Ridge way, now at the present time. But it w asn't high s chool w ork, they called it fifth grade w ork, but it was the same as, about the same as nin th grade w ould be t oday in high school. (3) �S.R: ( That's just as far as education advanced then ? W.A: That's as far as I w ent was grade nine , yes. It w ould be the same as grade nine no w . S.R: Did they have i t any farther than that ? W.A: Pardon ? S.R: Did they have education any farther than that , or w as it just on to college ? W.A: I think that if you w anted to advance any farther than that they had t o go t o college and I think it w as Ham ilton where m ost of the m from around here w ent . A n d t h e normal s chool of c ourse for t e a chers w as in there t o o . S.R: Could you d e s cribe any changes that took place in your s chool? Is your s chool s till there, or i f not why? W.A: Well, Buf falonians I think, got com ing over here in large numbers and built cot t ages and some year 'round homes, in, what is now c alled Ridgew ood and Oakhill Forest, and they got so m any kids c o m e in there t h a t t h i s o n e room school w as not suffi cient anym ore and it w as t orn d o w n and this four room s chool w as built there, that' s ( there no w . But that ' s no longer used . S.R: D o you rem e mber approxim ately when it w as t orn d o w n, what year? W.A: No, approxi m ately I w ould say maybe t wenty ye ars ago, that ' s probably t w enty ye ars old that s chool that 's there no w . Th at w ould t ake it back what, sixty-five? 1965, I w ould think w ould be s o m e where near close to it , when it was t orn down, the old s chool. S.R: Are you, or have you been a me mber of a church? W.A: Yes I belong t o the United Church here in Ridge w ay. It used to be the Me thodist Church when I w as a kid and w ent t o Sunday S chool. S.R: And where w as that located in Ridge w ay ? W.A: Its on the corner of Dominion Road and Ridge Road. S.R: D o you kno w approxim ately when it was built or who it w a s built by, or have there been any changes in it ? W.A: Well, there's been numerous changes. The Sunday S chool w as built out on the north sid e . That w as all ne w and the room on the east where they have their dinners and e verything out there now . They play basketball out there , that w as all added to i t . I don't know what years, but not too many years ago. The big auditorium where they hold their dinners and things out in there, I built that , laid the blocks and bricks on the outside and plastered it on the inside . (4) �Th a t m u s t h a v e b e e n about , o h , it m u s t have b e e n c l o s e to t w e n t y y e a r s a g o t o o , I g u e s s . B u t t h e y w e r e all a d d e d ne w , t h e S u n day ( S c h o o l r oo m s . Then they had a , t h e y had a . . . oh what d o you c a l l it w h e n you s it u p on t o p? S.R: B a l c o n y? W.A: B a l c on y , y e ah . T h e y h a d a b alc ony u p above, o n the west e n d of t h e church , and a s t a irw ay l e a d ing up t o i t . and sit up in t h e r e . Y o u c o u l d go u p t h e r e W e used t o ride a bicycle f r o m o u r fa r m into Sunday School and mother always saw that we got there t o o . We always had t o tell her what the lesson was about and everything after we got home, or we found out what. There was no way of going and playing ball someplace and come home and say we were at Sunday School. S.R: Do you recall any special events the church had to offer the family? W.A: My own family? S.R: The church families. Any special events the church had to offer for the families to attend or participate in somehow. W.A: Well, the weddings, many of the weddings took place there, and a lot of the funeral services were held there. ( In fact, most of them, or all of them practically, were held there until Mr. Hary Dell, the undertaker at that time, built a funeral home where Larry Williams is now. And after that a lot of the funerals, of course, especially unless it's an extra large o n e , then they go to the church, but most of them are held at Larry William's Funeral Home now. That was built by Harry Dell o r ig inal l y . S.R: Did churches always h a v e w e d d in g s or d i d w e d d ings u s e d to take place in the h o m e ? W.A: W e l l , lots of t h e m do in t h e h o m e s a n d l o t s of t h e m u s e d to h a v e t h e m in t h e i r a r c h w a y s out in the b a c k y a r d if it w as a n i c e d a y , and if t hey h a d a bad day the y ' d h a v e t o go in t h e i r h o u s e s . the archways ... ! If i t ' s can r e m e m be r be ing t o a c o u p l e d i f f e r e n t o n e s u n d e r arch w a y s . S.R: Was it a ve r y popular p r a c t ic e t o h a v e t h e m in t h e h o m e or in t h e c h u r ch ? W.A: ( W e l l , I t h ink t h e b i g g e s t p a r t of t h e m e s p e c ially if t h e y w e r e w h ite w e d d in g s , w e r e in t h e c h u r ch . S.R: Do you r e m e m be r any p r o m inent m e m be r s of t h e c h u r c h o r c o m m u n i t y and t h e spe c ia l t h ings t h e y m a y h a v e done? '�' �W.A: W el l , four of t h e s o u t h w in d o w s in t h e c h u r c h w e r e p u t in w it h n ice c o l ou r e d g l a s s a n d l e a d e d glas s , b y d iffe rent c h u r c h m e m be r s . ( I k n o w t h e o n e w a s p u t in t h e r e b y t h e S h e r k fa m il y , t h e H u g h S h e r k fa m il y . T h e r e w a s anot h e r o n e by t h e Mann fa m il y . They were w onde r ful w in d o w s , b ig , h ig h , g o t h ic w in d o w s , a n d a l l t h e p i c t u r e s of a s h e p h e r d c a r r y ing a la m b w it h a b i g c r oo k s in one t h ing , a n d anoth e r on one o f t h e m . Oh , I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e o t h e r s w e r e , b u t t h e y ' r e beaut iful w in d o w s a n d r e a l l y c o s t a l o t of m oney. E ven in those d a y s it would cost a l o t of m on e y . S.R: A n d y e t th ey w e r e d o n a t e d ? W.A: Y e s , t h e y w e r e d o n a t e d by t h e fa m il i e s . T h e fa m i l i e s w o u l d p u t it in h o n o u r ing th e i r . . . l ik e , I t h ink W a r d S h e r k p u t t h e one i n f o r h is fat h e r w h o w a s M r . H u g h S h e r k . p u t t h a t in . I d o n ' t k n o w t h e M anns , w h o O l d A d o l p h M a nn, I th ink h is one s o n Ge o r g e p r o b a b l y w a s t h e one f o r t h a t . I d o n ' t k n o w w h o t h e o t h e r t w o w e r e act u a l l y . . I . don't know who put the other two in. t h e o n e , s o u t h s id e . T h e fou r of t h e m a r e a l l o n T h e y ' r e beau t i f u l w in d o w s . . . s t il l t h e r e . S.R: ( W h o is t h e f i r s t p o l i t ica l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e you ca n r e m e m be r ? W.A: Po l i t i c a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s ? W e l l , y o u m e an local o r . . . B il l W il s o n I w ou l d s a y w a s o u t f i r s t m e m be r t h a t w e h a d r ig h t h e r e f r o m R id g e w ay. He was a local R i d g e w a y m an. S.R: H is d u t i e s and h is t it l e ? W.A: H e w a s a C o n s e r v a t iv e . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r he e v e r . . I d o n ' t t h i n k . h e e v e r got t o be a C ab in e t Me m be r . S.R: Do y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t d u t i e s he h a d to do in the t o w n ? W.A: N o , not s p e c i f ically , only t h e , w h e n e v e r he was cal l e d u p o n , p e o p l e w ou l d g o to h i m a n d want s o m e t h ing a n d he' d have t o go and take i t up w it h his, w h o e v e r w a s the C a b inet Minis t e r you k n o w , and t h e y ' d have t o take it u p w it h him a n d try and ge t it for h i m if he c o u l d . S.R: D o you know w h a t t i m e t h i s was , h o w m any y e a r s ago o r w h a t y e a r ? W.A: A h , bac k in t h e . . . h e h a d t h e M o d e l T F o r d Agency, s o it w a s back a r ound , about R id g e w a y . 1 916. H is first opponent w a s Dr. S c h n e i d e r f r o m H e w a s t h e Libe r a l t h a t M r . W ilson ran agains t . Schneider l e f t h e r e and s o l d t h e b u s i n es s , h is d o c t o r ing p r ac t ic e o u t h e r e ( a n d w e n t t o N ia g a r a F alls , b e c a u s e N iagara F alls u s e d t o b e i n t h is r i d in g . there ..• A t t h a t t i m e it w a s c o m b i ne d . I t h ink h e w e n t d o w n the. t a l k w a s h e w e n t t h e r e f i g u r ing h e w a s g o i n g t o m a k e (6) �a lot of f r iends. If h e went t h e r e a b o u t t w o y e a r s b e fo r e t h e e l e c t i o n , h e ' d m a k e a lot o f fr iends and g a r n e r a lot o f v o t e s d o w n t h e re. ( W h e t h e r it w o rk e d o r it d idn' t I d o n ' t kn o w , but B il l W ilson beat him by q u i t e a m a j o r ity anyh ow. S.R: A n d y e t he w as f r o m a l i t tle t o w n l ike R id g e w ay. W.A: A l i t tle t o w n l ik e R id ge w ay yeah. S.R: W h a t a r e s o m e of the changes t h a t have taken place in t h e a r e a , , l ik e , at one t im e i t used t o b e Bertie Townsh ip ? W.A: Yes, we used to have o u r o w n Bertie Township C o u n ci l , C o u n ty. . T ow n sh ip Council here in Crystal Beach likewise and Fort Erie. At that time . we used to have a Reeve, and a Deputy Reeve, and three Councilmen, and they had the same at Crystal Beach. And then they come along and told us it was going to be a lot cheaper, they'd have a lot less men if they got the...oh what do you call it now...the ...l've gotten terrible ...the Regional Government. They come out and told us Regional Government was going to be much better and cheaper and everything, and they wouldn't have near as many, it would save us a lot of money. At that time our Reeve was getting about seven hundred dollars a year, Deputy Reeve was getting about four hundred. ( I know, my brother was Deputy Reeve for quite a few years. It was going to eliminate, out of the five years, it was going to eliminate them all but one. We were going to have one Aldermen here, and ' one from Crystal Beach, and one from Stevensville I believe at that time, and the Mayor, and four or five Erie. A ldermen from Fort If it had stayed the salaries on the same levels t h e y w e r e w h e n they w e n t t o R e gi on al i t w o u l d have been a l r igh t , b u t r i g ht , away they t u r n e d a r o u n d and uppe d t h e m . w ha t they g e t now . Up in t h e thousands . I don' t kno w , h e a v e n s , . .! b e l ie v e o u r Mayor n o w · is g e t t ing t w e n ty- s ix t h o u s a n d or s o m e t h in g , m aybe e v e n m o r e . S.R: W h a t is y our o p in io n of t h e a m alga m a t io n of all t h e villages ? W .A: I th ink i t ' s . . . I t h ink i t ' s the w o r s t t h ing we e v e r h a d for t h i s c o m m un i t y , I h o ne s t ly d o . F o r th is reason . . . if I w a s t o go d o w n t h e r e n o w a n d a t t e n d t h e counc i l m e e t ing w ith a c o m pla int , o u r r e p r es e n t a t i v e f r o m h e r e in R idge w a y , a n d t h e o n e f r o m C ry stal B e a c h , w o u l d b e p r o bably t h e o n l y t w o in t h e r e that w o u l d know w h a t I w a s talk ing about r e g a r d ing a s t r e e t , or a cutoff s t r e e t , full o f m u d h o l e s , o r p o t h o l e s , or s o m e t h in g . T h e y ' r e t h e o n l y t w o t h a t ' s l i s t e n ing t o w h a t I am s a y i n g , t h e o t h e r t w o a r e s i t t ing t h e r e g a b b ing a b o u t (7) �s o m e thing e n t irely d iffe r e n t . A n d at that t i m e w h e n I w e n t in w ith a c o m plaint t o t h e Cou n c il d o w n h e re , they all knew e x a c t l y w ha t I w a s t a l k i n g a b ou t , a n d t h e y all s a t t h e r e l is t e n ing and e v e r y t h in g , a n d w h e n I g o t t h rough . .. w e ll I t h i n k w e s h o u l d d o s o m e t h ing a b o u t t h is o r that , and t h e y g o t b u s y and d id it. S.R: N o w R id g e w ay is o n e of the l i t t l e people? W.A: Y e a h , we d o n ' t c o u n t at a l l u p h e r e n o w . W e l l , w e d o , b u t what I m e a n , o u r o n e m a n h a s a s a y , a n d t h e one d o w n t h e r e , a n d I d o n't m ea n . . . but what I ' m s a y ing . . . ! d o n ' t m ea n that t h e y a r en' t g iv in g u s a fair shake, but we got four or five from down there, I believe at l e a s t fou r , p l u s t h e M a y o r for f i v e , v o t ing a g a in s t o u r t w o f r o m u p here. S.R: W h a t w a s y o u o p inion on t h e n a m e t h e y ch os e ? W .A: T h e R e g io n a l Go v e r n m e n t ? S.R: N o , F o r t E r ie . W.A: W e l l , t h a t ' s , that I h a v e n ' t a n y fau l t t o find w i th t h a t . a l r igh t . That w a s I t u s e d t o b e F o r t E r ie a n d B r idgebu r g ' t il l th e y ch a n g e d it , a n d w e n t R e g i o n a l I g ue s s . T h a t w a s all F o r t E r ie, a n d w e ' r e s u p p o s e d t o b e F o r t E r ie h e r e no w , bu t y e t , o u r m a il a l l co m e s < F o r t E r ie , R id g e w a y m o s t l y o n it , o r a l o t o f it . t h e co de n u m be r , is t h e p o s t o f f ice . A n d t h e LOS - lNO, It g o e s by t h e co d e s I g u e s s m o r e t h a n a n y t h ing n o w . S.R: A n d not by t h e n a m e s ? S.R: C ou l d y o u t a k e m e d o w n a m e m o r y w a l k d o w n t h e m a in s t r e e t in R idge w a y , s t a t in g w h a t the s t r e e t n a m e is and a p p r o x i m a t e l y w h a t y e a r you ' r e d e s c r i b in g ? A n d t e l l m e t h e s t o r e s t h a t y o u r e m e m be r a n d t h e s t o r e o w n e r s , and a n y t h ing t h a t . .. any p o i n t s o f int e r e s t t o do w it h the s t o r e s , l i k e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e h a n g o u t s f o r k i d s o r any thing l ike t h a t . W.A: W e ll , s t a r t in g at t h e s o u t h e r l y end of t h e tow n , t h e f i r s t b ig , b i g g e r bu ilding at t h a t t i m e years a g o , w a s a print s h o p , and it w a s o p e r a t e d b y Bo b Dishe r's fathe r , a n d I t h ink h is n a m e was M e r r it D is h e r. I t 's no longe r c o n t inu e d n o w , t h e R idgeway Dry C leaners a r e in t h a t s a m e b u il d ing n o w . T h e n on the s a m e s ide of t h e s t r e e t w a s t h e P u b l ic Sch o o l b u i l d ing and t h e f i f t h l e a r n w o r k t h a t t h e y tau g h t in t h e r e . P ro c e e d ing on n o r t h e r ly , t h e re was a b i g b r ic k h o t e l , a t h r e e s t o r e y bu ild i n g , calle d the Que e n ' s Hot e l. and t h e Bre w e r y i s o n that s it e n o w . (8) It's t o r n d o w n �S.R: W.A: The h o t e l w a s j u s t torn down. S.R: Lac k of b u s in e s s o r . . . ? W .A: ( Do y o u k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e h o t e l ? I t h in k , m o r e or l e s s , lack of bus iness. b e t t e r hotel o f t h e t w o. It w a s funny , it w a s a far It was . . . t h e o n e that's there now, t h e f r a m e h o t e l , t h e old M cLeod H o u s e . . . y e t t h e M c Le od H o u s e for s o m e r e a s o n r eally g o t t h e b ig end of t h e b u s ine s s . I don' t k n o w w h y . T h e oth e r one w a s n ' t g e t t ing e n o u g h w o r k a n d t a x e s k e p t g o ing up, and up, a n d up, and f inally t h e y . . . it w a s s o l d and t o r n d o w n . A n d t h e n t h e B r e w e r y w a s bu ilt in t h e r e, t h e B r e w e r ' s W a r e h o u s e . T h e n on t h e o th e r s id e of t h e r a i l r o a d t r a c k , g o in g back w h e n I w a s a very s m al l b o y , th e r e w a s a groc e r y s t o r e in t h e r e , a n d t h a t w a s r u n . . . t h e o w n e r t h a t r u n it , h is n a m e w a s D ic k H a r d is o n. w a s g roce r i e s o n l y , a n d they h a d a b a k e s h o p i n t h e back . It And t h e y h a d a o n e ho r s e w a g o n t h a t u s e d t o go a r ou n d t h e coun t r y a n d p e d d l e g r oc e r ie s i f t h e y w e r e o r d e r e d , a n d brea d . Next to t h a t I g u e s s , w a s a plu m b ing s h o p , t h a t w a s r u n by B e n Za v it z. I t ' s . . . t h e bu i l d ing is s t il l t h e r e ( .. .! c a n ' t th ink of t h e f e l lo w ' s na m e , t h e e l e c t r ic ian t h a t ' s i n t h e r e n o w . Then there w a s a poolhall there, a n d b a r be r s h o p r u n b y F rank C l a r k . It w a s bu r n t out in t h e s e c o n d b i g t o w n f i r e . A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a bank in t h e r e c a l l e d t h e R oy a l . I t h ink it w a s t h e R o y a l B a n k . It w a s a l s o b u r n e d d o w n. A store o n t h e co r n e r . . . I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e n a m e o f t h a t s t r e e t is. t h e co r n e r w h e r e t h e p o s t o f f ice is on t h e c o r n e r o f n o w . It's It . . D o n . K in s m e n h a d a s t o r e t h e r e , and M c M o r rans h a d a g o o d m e n ' s fu r n ish i n g s s t o r e in t h e r e for y e a r s. M c M o r rans w a s t h e r e f i r s t . d o w n in t h e s e c o n d t o w n fire. It b u r n e d Then go ing the o th e r w a y , on t h e c o r n e r w h e r e C a m e r e t t a ' s S t ore i s n o w , n o r t h , t h e s t o r e w a s t h e r e and a lady ran it by t h e n a m e of M r s . H o l m e s A'nth ony. S h e had a dry good s store and also a m ill ine r y s h o p connected w ith it. m a d e ladies h a t s in t h e r e . s t y l e s of t h o s e day s . offic e . of. Sh e V e r y ni c e hats t o o , for way back in t h e T h e n n e x t t o t h a t , there w a s a l i t t l e insu r a n c e A l an C o ll a r d w a s in t h e r e I g u e s s the last that I r e m e m be r A n d h e w a s there w h e n it burned down. N e x t to that t h e r e w a s a b ig d r u g s t o r e a n d it' s there y e t , only he r e b u ilt, s t il l in the s a m e plac e . A t that t i m e t h is drugstore w a s Schwartze ' s , J a c k Sch wa r tze' s D ru g s t o r e . p o s t off ice in t h e r e . The d r u g s t o r e ' s It b u r n e d dow,n . Then t h e r e w a s a It . .. and a post office on one s ide and a s h o e s t o r e (9) �on t h e o t h e r s id e , a c o m b in e d s t o r e . It b u r n e d . ( It w as r u n by M u r r a y Hibba r d . I t h in k , I th ink t h a t w a s t h e las t of t h e s t o r e s a n d h o u s e s t h a t w a s in along th e r e at that t i m e . T h e r e has b e e n a c o u pl e n e w o n e s b u il t in t h e r e t h a t was vacant p r o pe r t y . D o n K in s m e n s a n d B i l l Qu inse y s , t h e y a r e the s t o r e s th e r e n o w , n e w s t o r e s , b u t t h e y w e r e v a c a n t p r o p e r t y at t h a t t i m e. Then on the corner of the next b l o c k , I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t the . .! s h o u l d k n o w aft e r l i v ing h e r e e ig h t y . y e a r s , I s h o u l d k n o w t h e n a m e of t h e s t r e e t s , b u t I d o n' t . I don' t t h i n k a lot of t h e m have any s t r e e t s ig n s up on t h e m n o w y e t t o d ay . B u t t h e r e w a s a s t o r e t h e r e c alle d B o x e n ' s S t o r e , r u n b y H a r r y B o x e n . It w a s , I t h i n k m os t ly m e n ' s fu r n is h i n g s a n d g r oc e r ie s and s h oe s . A s h o e s t o r e i n t h e back c o m b in e d w it h t h a t ... a hou s e o u t o n t h e n o r t h s id e w h e r e h e l i v e d in . in t h e r e . T h e n t h e r e w a s s e v e r al h o u s e s along As I g o t down o n the corner o f t h e m a in s t r e e t a n d the D o m i n i o n R o a d , a n d o n t h e corner t h e r e , it w o u l d be t h e s o u t h - w e s t c o r ne r , t h e r e w a s a, w h e r e New m a n s S t o r e is t h e r e n o w , t h a t u s e d t o be a n u n d e r tak ing e s t a b l i s h m e n t in t h e r e. T h e f e l l o w t h a t r a n t h a t, h is n ame w a s M il t o n B r e w s t e r. it w a s p u t i n t o a s t o r e. ( A n d after h e got out of there, T h a t t a k e s u s d o w n to t h e c o r n e r , a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a b i g b r ick h o u s e o n t h e o p p o s ite c o r n e r, a n d Je s s ie F in c h l ive d in t h a t . It w a s t o r n d o w n a n d t h e b ig n e w b a n k i s t h e r e , t h e R oy a l Bank is o n t h e o t h e r c o r n e r n o w . I th ink t h a t c le a n s up t h e n o r t h . . .I m e a n t h e w e s t s ide o f M a in S t r e e t . T h e n g o ing bac k , I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e w a s anyth ing m u c h ' t il l w e g o t to t h e s t o r e b e s ide t h e r a il road t r a c k . Ward D is h e r o w n e d that a n d ran it at t h a t t i m e . I t h ink h e h a d . . . y e s I k n o w h e h a d , m e n ' s w e a r t h e r e a n d g r oce r ie s . T h e n l a t e r H a r r y Be n n e r w e n t i n t h e r e a n d S e y m o u r R u b e l . s t il l t h e r e . T h e n o n t h e o t h e r s id e is t h e M c Le o d H o t e l . b e e n , as far as I c a n r e c a l l b a c k , t h e M c Le o d Hot el. It' s It' s a l w a y s But m y Unc l e B i l l A th o e . . . h is n a m e w a s B i l l A t h o e t o o . ..h e o w n e d it and ran i t for q u i t e a f e w years ...a lot of y e a r s i n fac t . The M cLeo d is s t il l t h e r e . T h e n next t o t h e McLeod w a s t h e h a r d w a r e s h o p , a n d i t w a s o w n e d a n d r u n by a fam ily b y t h e n a m e of S t one . w h a t t h e ir f i r s t n a m e was say for s u r e on t h a t . .. .! b e l i e v e it w a s A . L., it n o w o f c o u r se . but I w o u l dn' t Bu t t h e last na m e w a s S tone . T o m J o n e ' s Law O f f i c e is n o w . I don' t k n o w T h at's w h e r e T h a t b u i l d ing has a new front on T he n next to that w a s t h e big s t one b u i l d ing t h e r e , t ha t was t h e o l d original I m pe r ial Ban k . (10) The n n e x t t o t h e bank �is War d S h e r k ' s, t h e s o n of th is Hugh S h e r k that I w a s t e l l ing y o u , t h a t t h e n i c e w in d o w s w e r e p u t i n i n h o n o u r o f. ( W a r d S h e r k ' s Har d w a r e S t or e , it' s s t il l t h e r e . . . h a r d w a r e and f u r n i t u r e . N e x t t o t h a t w a s Be e s h y ' s Ch ina S t o r e . A n d t h e n t h e r e was a c o u ple o f old h o u s e s i n t h e r e a n d t h e old i m pl e m ent s a l e s b a r n l ike. T h e y w e r e all t o r n d o w n a n d a n e w b a n k p u t i n the r e . A n d t h e n n e x t t o t h e bank , t h e r e w a s a b u t c h e r s h o p , a n d t h a t ... as f a r back as I c a n r e m e m be r , t h e f i r s t m a n t h a t w a s in t h e r e , h is n a m e w a s K e iffe r , w h o ran a b u t c h e r shop. T h e b u i l d in g i s s t il l t h e r e , r u n by M r s . Coo p e r . i s s u e d c a r l i c e n s e s in t h e r e . n e w bu i l d i n g p u t in t h e r e . La t e r s h e Then next to that there was a little M c M o r r a n s put it in a f t e r t h e b ig f i r e , w h e n M c M o r r a n s s t o r e b u r n t , t h e y w e n t o v e r t h e r e a n d b u ilt a s m alle r place in the r e . A n d t h a t ' s w h e r e Nat a l i e M o r g a n r u n s it in the r e n o w . . . a g ift s t o r e. S h o p in t h e r e now . T h e n n e x t t o t h e g if t s t o r e i s D a v id s o n ' s F r u it T h e n on t h e o p p o s i t e s id e o f D a v i d s o n' s , o n t h e o p p o s i t e s i d e o f t h e c o rne r , i s . . . Je r r y D a v i d s o n u p h e r e , h a d an ele c t r ic s t o r e i n t h e r e , s o l d e l e c t r ic a l a p p l iances f o r qu i t e a f e w y e a r s . I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t ' s in t h e r e n o w . t h e r e . . . b o o k s a n d g if t s I g u e s s . ( for years . S o me t h i n g n e w ' s in I d o n ' t k n o w , I h a v e n ' t b e e n in it T h e n i t ' s a l l h ou s e s in there a f t e r t h a t , I g u e s s , d o w n a s f a r as t h e U n i t e d C h u r c h. That' s . . . a n d t h e n g o ing o n d o w n p a s t t h e U n it e d C h u r c h a w a y s is t h e n e w F ir e H a l l t h a t h a d b e e n b u i l t i n t h e r e o f c ou r s e . It ' s b e e n t h e r e qu ite a few y e a r s t o o , nqw . It m u s t .. . S.R: A p p r ox i m a t e ly ? W.A: Oh I w o u l d say a p p r o x i m ately t w e n ty - f iv e y e a r s m a y b e . S.R: W h e r e was t h e old F ir e H o u s e l o c a t e d ? W.A: W e l l t h e old one w a s b u i l t in' b e h i n d t h e .. . it was b u ilt in beh ind the Dav ids on's F r u it S h o p , o n t h e , I g u e s s that w o u l d b e D is h e r S t re e t . S.R: I t ' s o n t h e ...o n e beh ind t h e fruit s h o p a n y h o w . Do y o u r e m e m be r w h o s t a r t e d , w h o b u i l t t h e F ir e D e p a r t m e n t , w h o t h e c h iefs w e r e , t h e a p p r o x i m a t e y e a r w h e n it was s t a r t e d and w h a t t h e e q u i p m e n t u s e d t o b e ? W.A: W e l l , t h e y h a d o l d ha nd-fight ing e qu ip me n t w it h t h e s e l f pu m ps . T w o or t h r e e m e n on b ig p u m ps o n t h e or iginal o n e , b u t t h e n t h e y ( g o t s o m e o l d M o d e l T F or d s that w e r e , c o m e in a l o n g l a t e r a n d k e p t b u il d ing u p . . . and h a d s o m e big n e w e r one s , s t il l n e w e r one s . I don't k now w h a t t h e late r ones t h a t t h e y h a v e n o w , t h e n a m e (11\ �of t h e m ak e of t h e m a r e , b u t t h e o r iginal c h i e f that I can r e ca l l is W a r r e n Bak e r , b e t t e r k n o w n as Co r k e y Bak e r . H e was t h e c h ief, t h e f i r s t o n e I c a n r e call t h e r e . S.R: Do y o u k n o w a p p r o x i m at e l y w h e n ? W.A: N o , I d o n' t . Co r k e y ' s a b o u t my ag e , h e ' s d e a d n o w . I w o u l d t h in k t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h i r ty o r t h i r t y-five , p r o ba l b y t h i r t y-five at that t i m e , t h a t would b e f ifty y e a r s ago that h e w as p r o ba b l y n e a r it whe n h e w as ch ief. S.R: T h e y ' v e h a d s e v e ral s in c e . Y o u m e n t io n e d a b o u t th is s e c o n d f i r e in R id g e w ay a c o u p l e of t i m es . What were the first and second fires ? W.A: W e l l , t h e f i r s t o n e I was t w e l v e y e a r s o l d . I r o d e in on m y b ic y c l e t o it in t h e r e . That's when I told you A n d t h e n ext o n e I w a s c o ntrac ting , m a r r ie d a n d c o n t r a c t i n g , a n d I w a s b u i l d i n g a , s t u c c o ing a h o u s e o u t o n Nu m be r T h r e e H ighw a y , u p n e a r C h e r r y H ill B l v d . , C h e r r y H ill Golf C ou r se, w h e n w e h e a r d t h e f i r e s ir e ns a l l b l o w ing. could see all the s moke. W e d i d n ' t k n o w w h a t i t w as. We A n d w e w ere s t u c c o ing th is h ou s e a n d s t u c c o ing is a j o b t h a t y o u can' t qu it . Y o u ' v e got t o ... w h e n y o u ' r e s t a r t ing one s ide y o u ' v e g o t to fin ish that s id e o r y o u show a l a p when y o u j o in onto it . ( So w e c o u l d n ' t s t o p and we d i d n ' t , w e r e n ' t able to ' t il l we f i n i s h e d . . . a n d w as g o in g h o m e f r o m w o r k a n d go t i n t o t o w n , and h e r e the w h o le t o w n , t h e w e s t s ide of t h e r oa d w a s b u r n e d out, and a l o t o f t h e b u i l d in g s o n t h e ea s t s ide o f t h e r o a d w e r e d a m a g e d . . . l ike S h e r k ' s H a r dw a r e S t o r e t h e r e , the w in d o w s w e r e a l l e it h e r b u r n t o u t o r b l o w n o u t w ith w a t e r h o s e f ig h t i n g t h e f i r e y o u k n o w , and w a s d a m a g e d m o r e or less . B u t anyh o w it was s a v e d , it d i d n ' t b u r n d o w n. w it h Be e s h y ' s Ch ina S t o r e . The same I t w a s d a m a g e d w it h w a t e r . t h e hotel w a s d a m ag e d some. I t h ink A l o t o f t h e belong ings from d iffe r e n t places w e r e t a k e n and c a r r i e d f r o m t h e s t o r e s o v e r t o t h e s t o r e o n t h e . . . n e x t to t h e r a ilroad t ra c k , w h ic h is t h e o n e t h a t was r u n by Har r y Ben n e r I g u e s s a t t h a t t i m e. But e v e r y t h ing w a s c a r r ie d f r o m o n e s t o r e u p t h e r e and p u t i n t h e r e a n d w h a t a m ix u p. When it c a m e t i m e t o d iv iding it u p , t h e y d idn' t k n o w w h a t belonged t o t h is o n e , o r w h a t b e l o n g e d t o t h e o t h e r s , o r anyth ing . a m ix u p . But I g u e s s they g o t it s t r a ightened aw ay. It was quite If any t h ing w a s lost it w a s likely p a id for by t h e insu r a n c e c o m pa n ies. .. . ? S.R: W o u l d you know h o w it g o t sta r t e d or w a s t h e re any W.A: I d on't kno w h o w it g o t s t a r t e d b u t I k n o w w h e r e it s t a r ted. _ (12) T here �w a s a l it t l e s t o r e on the back of M c M o r rans. A fellow by the n a m e of W h i t e y R o be rt s , a r e t u r n m a n , r u n a b i c y c le s t a n d o r s ho p back in there. He sold bicycles a n d repa i r e d the m . M y y o u n g e s t son Bob w o r k e d in the re a n d hel p e d h i m . .. more o r l e s s f i x ing wheels a n d w hat e v e r he could, a n d r e pa ir ing the m . It s t a r t e d in the back o f that sho p. W hat cau s e d it I don' t know . M y s o n w a s ho m e t o d in n e r w h e n it s t a r t e d , a n d h e was on a b i c y c l e , and he r a n d o w n o u r r o a d , d o w n o n h is b icycle . Rudder's S tore was on the other co r n e r t h e n , a t t h e t i m e o f t h e seco n d f i r e , t h a t ' s w h e r e M r s . H o l m e s A n th o n y w a s i n t h e f i r s t o n e . H e. p e d d l e d d o w n t h e r e q u ick a n d j u m pe d o f f h is w h e e l a n d s t o o d it u p a g a i n s t , l i k e a l it t le g a r a g e , that C a m e ret tas ow ned. I n h is e xcit e m e n t o v e r h e l p in g W h i t e y g e t s t u f f o u t o f h is bu i l d i n g , h e fo r g o t abo u t h is w h e e l , a n d w h e n h e w e n t o u t t o g e t h is w h e e l , t h e t ir e s a n d e v e r y t h ing w e r e a l l bu r n t o f f o f it. B u t , s o it s t a r t e d i n t h e r e . When we got there o n o u r w ay g o i n g h o m e f r o m w o r k , t h e y w e r e w o r k in g o n t h e , f i g h t ing the fire in the f r o n t o f that bu i l d ing, w h ich w a s McMo r r a n s a t t h a t t i m e , a n d t h e m e n w e r e u p t h e r e o n ladde r s . It h a d t in s id in g o n it a n d t h e y had t h e s e b i g a x e s w ith a s p ike o n t h e o n e s i de a n d an a x e on t h e o th e r , ch o p p ing holes a n d br eak ing h o l e s t h r ou g h the t in s iding. I t was a l l bu r n ing in the, be t w e e n t h e f lo o r a n d t h e ce i l ing, in be t w e e n t h e j o is t , and they cou l d n ' t g e t a t it t o p u t it out, .. ant:i t h e y w e r e cu t t in g h o l e s in be t w e e n e v e r y j o is t a n d s q u i r t in g w a t e r a l l t h e w a y back t h r ou g h t h e r e . I t w a s a l o s ing caus e . T h e y cou l d n ' t k e e p u p w it h it , a n d it f i n a l l y g o t t h e bes t o f t h e m a n d b u r n t t h a t store down, and t h e barbershop, and the hardware store. out but H i l b o r n ' s . E ve r y thing's The r e w as a d r iv e w ay the r e go ing b a c k in, and they were able t o c u t it off the r e a t that d r i v e w a y . H il b o r n ' s D r u g s t o r e is at . . . a d r y - c l e a n ing e s t a b l is h m e n t i n that p a r t' o f t h e bu il d ing n o w , a n d a real estate o f f ice in t h e other s ide o f i t , in the buil d ing. That was the las t . . . that bu i l d ing was the only one left in t he block from the railroad t rack north. S.R: And all t h e rest were g o n e ? W.A: A l l t h e r e s t w e r e cleaned out, yeah . S.R: W h a t d i d t h e R id g e w ay a r e a hav e to offe r in s p o r t s ? W.A: W e l l , we had p r a c t ically , I th ink t h e s a m e at that t i m e as t h e y h a v e now. W e h a d a rugby t e a m her e , and b a s e b a l l , t w o o r t h r e e h o r s e s h o e c o u r t s w h e r e t h e y u s e d to have e l e c t r ic l i g h t s and y o u (13) �c o u l d pitch h o r s e s h o e s at n ig h t . . . of c o u r s e t h e poolh a l l . a b o w l ing alley a t t h a t t i m e . W e had T h e b o w l ing alley w a s in part o f what I s a id was t h e im ple m e n t s a l e s barn. I don' t th ink there w a s a n y t h ing e ls e . S.R: W h a t k ind of s pe c ial e v e n t s ? W.A: W e h a d a dancehall up a b o v e o n e of t h e s t o r e s t h a t bu r n t d o w n. O n e of t h e b ig s t o r e s h a d a full s iz e dance hall up t h e r e . The O d d f e l l o w s , wh ich t h e y c a l l e d t h e T h r e e L i n k C lu b , t h e Th r e e L i n k s w ith t h e O d d fe l l o w s emble m . . . t h e y called t h e m . T h e y u s e d t o advert ise o r send o u t i n v i t a t ions t o t h e T h r e e Link C lu b Dances and t h e y w e r e a l l s p o n s o r e d by t h e O d d f e l l o w s . S.R: B u t t h e .. . W h a t a b o u t t h is a n n u a l t h ing b e t w e e n S t e v e n s v ille a n d R id g e w a y , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e d e s c r ib e wh at it w a s ? W.A: W e l l, t h e y c a l l e d t h a t t h e 24t h o f M a y , t h e y .. . w h a t do t h e y cal l.. .w h a t ' s t h e 24th of M a y .. . i t ' s Vic t o r ia day is i t ? Qu e e n V ic t o r ia ' s b i r t h d ay , I t h i n k . affair for years . I t h ink i t ' s Vic t o r ia D a y , T h e y h a d . . . it w a s an a n n u a l I t s t arted o u t e a r l y in t h e m o r n ing o n a farm d o w n o n N igh R o a d , c a l l e d t h e E n g e l h a r t F a r m , a n d t h e r e w a s a r a c e t r a c k t h e r e , in t h e r e . . .a h o r s e r a c e t rack . I t s ta r t e d o u t in t h e mo r n ing b y h a v in g h o r s e r a c ing t h e r e , a n d t h e r a c e s w e r e a l l s u l k y races . T r o t t in g h o r s e s y o u k n o w , n o t r u n n ing h o r s e s , t r o t t in g h o r s e s . Oh , a n d t h e r e was a l o t o f p e o p l e a r o u n d h e r e t h a t h a d a l i t t l e m on e y and for , j u s t f o r a h o b by, had a t r o t t ing h o r s e o r a pace r , a n d th e y u s e d t o e n t e r th em. T h a t was t h e f i r s t th ing i n t h e mo r n in g . Then in t h e a f t e r n o o n t h e y w e n t t o S t e ve n s v ille for all t h e o t h e r g a m e s . T h e run n ing gam e s , t h e r u g b y , a n d baseball...all t h a t was h e l d in S t e vens v ille. O f course the . . . l ike I s a id befo r e , all t h e s e t h in g s w e r e allo t t e d o n p o in t s . T h e r e w e r e s o many p o i n t s g i v e n f o r e a c h s p o r t , a n d t h e n w h oe v e r r e c e i v e d t h e m o s t p o int s at t h e e n d , g o t t h is b ig u r n . . . t h e big s t e r l ing coffee pot . S.R: Cou l d y o u t e l l m e t h e s t o r y b e h i n d t h e coffee pot ? W.A: W e l l , w h e n t h e y f i r s t s t a r t e d t h e c o m p e t i t io n off b e t w e e n t h e t w o v illage s , t h is M r . Be e s h y t h a t h a d Bee s hy's Ch ina Store i n t h e c e n t r e of t h e b l o c k , on t h e e a s t s id e of M a in St r e e t , h e dona t e d t h is coffee pot . And I suppose h e got it a t cost because h e s o l d that s t u ff in h is s t o r e . It would h a v e c o s t a l o t o f m o n e y even a t that t i m e b e c a u s e it w a s s t e rling s il ve r , a n d t h e fra m e w o r k that it r o c k e d i n t o pour it, b e ing ir w a s b ig and held a l o t , it was h eavy , and t h e w e igh t (14) �w a s all c a r ried in th is r oc k e r . He d o n a t e d that , a n d t h e n t h e s t o r e k e e p e r s a n d th ings u s e d t o give , d o n a t e p r izes for runn ing , a n d j u m ping a n d th ings. I d on' t k n o w who t h e y w e r e any m o r e . I t h ink p r e t t y n e a r e v e r y o n e o f th e m g a v e s o m e , c o n t r i b u t e d s o m e t h ing to it. But t h e m a in t h ing w a s t h is b ig cup that they kept for . . . the b ig coffee p o t t h a t t h e y h e l d for t h e y e a r . That s e e m e d t o be t h e one t h a t t h e y g o t in t h e fights o ve r , a n d all th is, t r y in g t o be the w in n e r. S.R: Is it s t ill a r o u n d ? W.A: T h a t b ig cof f e e pot ? Y e s , o u r L i o n s C l u b h a s it. I t ' s be e n all r e f u rbis h e d . y o u k n o w , l i k e I w a s . . . t h a t co m m e n t t h a t I cu t o u t o f t h e p a p e r t h a t T e d H ib b e l h a d p u t in . S.R: A n d what w a s that ? W.A: W e ll, it w a s t h is big s t e r ling s il v e r co f f e e pot a n d it w a s d o n a t e d b y Mr . B e e sh y . It w a s h e l d for y e a r s b y t h is R id g e w a y m a n b y t h e na m e o f S t okes . H e w a s the c a pt a in o f t h e R id g e w a y t e a m . He w as h o l d i n g t h e c u p t h e las t y e a r w h e n i t k i n d o f f e l l a p a r t a n d w a s n ' t c o n t i n u e d any l o ng e r . a n d t o o k t h e p o t w ith h i m . H e m o v e d away to B r a m p t o n , O n t a r io W h e n h e w a s p r e t ty n e a r on h is d e a th bee} a n d k n e w h e w a s n ' t g o ing to l i v e v e r y l o n g , h e b r o u g h t it bac k d o w n , a n d M r . B e n Za v i t z , t h e po s t m a s t e r , a d v i s e d h i m t o take it t o t h e L i o n s C l u b , w h ich h e d i d . it every s ince. T h e l i o n s h a v e b e e n h o l d ing T e d H ibbe l , h e s a w it , a n d w h a t a h o r r ible m e s s i t w a s , a l l b lack , a n d y o u w o u l d n't k n o w w h e t h e r it w a s a n o l d l e a d c o f f e e p o t t o l o o k at it . A f t e r h e g o t it a l l f i xe d , it h a d a f e w de n t s a n d th ings i n it t h a t w a s all t a k e n o u t , and all f in is h e d , it w a s a beaut iful t h i n g . O f f ice. We s t ill have it . I t ' s in t h e c a b i n e t in o u r l ion's W e l l k no w , we k e e p it t h e r e all the t im e , u n d e r lock a n d k e y of cou r s e , s o . . . S.R: It ' s valuable n o w . W.A: S o as n o b o d y can b r ea k in .. . that w o u l d be one of t h e firs t things , if t h e y b r o k e in , t he y w o u ld make off with I w ould thin k . S.R: Do y o u r e m e m be r t h e B e rtie F air at t h e O ld F o r t E rie Race Track? W.A: Yes , I r e m e m be r t h a t . We used to take a gib bets do w n t h e r e . I r e m e m be r t aking a big , big p u m pkin d o w n there one t i m e , and g o t firs t prize f o r it , a n d w o n sixty cents . S.R: Was t h a t a l o t then? W.A: Wel l , it w a s a s m all c o u ntr y fair and th e y didn ' t h ave ..• a l l t h e m oney they had was what was c o n t ributed by t h e B e r t ie C ou ncil h e r e . (15) �That was o u r o w n lit t l e local council, and I think m ay b e F o r t E rie donated a lit te t o w a r d s it at t h a t t i m e t o o , and m a y b e S t e vens ville . . . no, I don't think S t e vens ville , they w e r e in with o u r council. C r y s t a l B e ach t hey h a v e t h e ir own. d id n ' t have a l o t of m o ney. T h e y p r o bably donated s o m e . They T h e y couldn' t g ive t w e n t y-five t h i r t y d o l l a r s , o r s o m e t h ing f o r a h u g e pu m pkin , th e y ... six t y c e n t s , w e l l six t y c e n t s w as a l o t o f m o n e y at t h a t t i m e . Y o u c o u l d buy a b r a n d n e w pair o f s h o e s f o r a d o l l a r and a h alf. S.R: D o y o u r e m e m be r the y e a r s a p p r o x i m ately it to o k place ? W.A: T h e B ert ie F a ir ? S.R: Yeah . W.A: W e l l I don ' t k n o w ju s t e x a c t l y w h e n it s t arted, b u t w h e n I w o n the pu m p k in prize, I w a s in t h e . .. I w o u l d be about fourt e e n . That would b e fourteen, and I ' m b orn in 1902, t h a t w o u l d b e w h a t ? . . . a b o u t 1916. A b o u t 1916, I g u e s s . S.R: H o w many y e a r s a f t e r t h a t d id it c o n t inue? W.A: W e l l , it ac tually was put out of b u s i n e s s by the W e l l a n d C ou n t y F a ir. T h e c o u n t y start e d t h i s f a ir in W e l l a n d a t t h a t t i m e , t h e n a n d of c o u r s e it w a s m u c h l a r ger, a n d the priz e s we re m u c h gre a t e r ... a n d w h o w a n t s t o go t o a l i t t le f a ir l ik e F ort Erie w h e n the o t h e r o n e . . . t w e lve, fourteen m il e s a w ay . . . a l l the e x h ib i t s s t art e d g o i n g over there . It was big. T h e y h a d b ig b u i l d in g s th ere , a n d g o o d h o r s e rac e s , a n d c a t t le, s h e ep, ch i c k e n s . . . e v e r y t h ing e x h i b i t e d o v e r t h e r e wh ich w as more or less lack ing down h ere . O u t s ide o f ve g e t a b le s , and a p p le s , and f r u it s , a n d the h o r s e races . .. the h o r s e races w a s t h e d r a w ing e v e n t f o r do w n at t h e B e r t ie F a i r . e x c e llent r a c e s t h e re. They used to have some H o r s e s c a m e f r o m a l l t h e way u p th rough as far as C h a t h a m down h e r e , west, a n d run and e n t e r e d in t h e races d o w n h e r e . T h e y u s e d t o h a v e w o n d e r fu l-t r o t ting h o r s e r a c e s here. S.R: Did y o u e v e r visit E rie B e ach? W.A: Y e s , numerous time s . E rie Beach s t a r t e d ahead of C rystal B e ach, and w a s a very nice beac h . There used t o be a little rail r o a d t ra c k ran f r o m F o r t E rie , and t h e y u s e d t o c o m e o v e r on t h e fe r r y , and g e t on this litt l e rail r o a d , and r u n u p the ... ride up the E rie Beac h . E rie Beach h a d a regular z o o in t h e r e , anim al zoo . N o t animals . . . of c o u r s e not elephants , o r big ones like that , but s h e e p and g o a t s , and r a b bits, a n d all s m al l e r animals , all kinds of s m aller animals, (16) �a n d b ir d s , a n d peac o c k s , and e v e r y t h ing t h e r e . a t t r ac t io n . It u s e d t o be a b ig I u s e d to ride a b icycle f r o m o u r fa r m d o w n t h e r e s e v e n m il e s , t w o o r t h r e e t i m e s a y e a r , j u s t to go d o w n t h e r e a n d t a k e in t h e r id e s , a n d s e e t h e a n i m a l s , a n d rolle r s k a t e , . . . d a n c e a l it t l e b i t l a t e r , w h e n I g o t old e nough t o dance. hall t h e r e . T h e y h a d a n ic e dance T h e n C r y s t a l B e ach started u p a n d t h e y h a d t h e C anad iana, and t h is A m e r icana that p l i e d b e t w e e n Bu ffalo and C r y s t a l B e ach . It was an h o u r r u n, and th e y h a d g o o d o r c h e s t ras t h a t played o n t h e r e , a n d y o u c o u l d dance a l l t h e w ay over, or a l l t h e w a y b a c k . I t h a d a b a r a n d y o u c o u l d b u y d r in k s on i t . A n d t h e b o a t r id e a c t u ally c o m i n g o v e r h e re, p u t F o r t E r ie . . . E r ie Beach o u t of c omm i s s io n . T h e y c o u l d n ' t compete. Pe ople w e n t f o r t h e l o n g b o a t r ide as . . . S.R: T h a t w a s a b ig p a r t of t h e e n t e r t a i n m e n t r ig h t t h e r e. W.A: T h a t w a s in t h e d a y s b e f o r e t h e au t omo b iles w e r e on t h e ma r k e t . T h e r e w a s t h e o d d one, b u t v e r y fe w . I can r e m e m be r r u n n ing t h e l e n g t h of t w o f ie l d s t o s e e t h e . . . m y f i r s t aut o t h a t I h e a r d c o m ing down R i d g e Road, from R i d g e w ay, going o u t t o s e e it. it b l o w t h e h o r n a n d k n e w w h a t it w as. two fields to get down there and see it. I heard I'd h e a r d a b o u t i t a n d r a n A l l it w a s w a s an o l d b u g g y m o r e o r l e s s, j u s t a b u g g y w it h h a r d ru b b e r t ir e s a b o u t t h a t w ide, and that t h ick, and went b o o m p, bo o m p, bo o m p . S.R: It h a d a m o t o r on it r ig h t ? W.A: It h a d a m o t or, t w o h o r s e p o w e re d . A fe l l o w by t h e n a m e of H e r b e r t H a u n r u n a p l a n i n g m il l a t C r y s t a l B e a c h o w n e d i t . I don't know w h at in t h e w o r l d e v e r b e c o m e of it b u t . . . S.R: Y ou m e n t i o n e d t h e l i t t l e r a il r o a d go ing f r o m F o r t E r ie t o E r ie B e a c h , ',Vou l d y o u r e m e m be r t h e n a m e of t h e r a i l r oa d ? W.A: N o , I don' t . Unl e s s it w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e E r ie B e ach R a il r o a d , I don' t k n o w w h e t h e r that was r ig h t o r n o t . I t pi.ie d b a c k a n d f o r t h f o r y e a r s w h ile E r ie Beach w a s runnin g . Of c o u r s e s o o n as C ry s t a l B e a c h s t a r t e d , t h a t b i g C anadiana, a n d A m e r ic a n a r u nning b a c k a n d fo r t h , and it w as o n l y a . . .f o r t y - five c e n t s one w a y f o r a boat ride. I k n o w later y e a r s w h e n it w a s s till runnin g , I used t o take my t h r e e b o y s a nd go down t h e r e on a S a t u rday a f t e r noon and g e t on t h a t , ride o ve r t o B uffalo and never get off it .. . s t a y righ t on and c o m e b a ck t o C ry s t a l Beach , just for a nice cool boat ride . S.R: Ho w m u c h w a s it then? W .A: O h , w h e n I s t a r t e d goin g , I t hink it w a s up around fifty - five c e n t s (17) �or s o m e th in g , v e r y r e asonable. B e in g s it was c o o l , and a n i c e r ide, and t h e y c o u ld da nce f r e e , b a c k and f o r t h t o the m u s ic . . . w h y e v e ry body s t a r t ed floc k ing u p h e r e and left E r ie B e ach. The r a i l r oad cou ldn't pay for i t s e lf, c o u l d n't m a k e e no u gh t o pay for the o p e rat ion, a n d i t h ad t o c l o s e u p . B a rdols that o w n e d and o p e r ated E r ie Beach . .. Bardols . . . I don't know w h a t h is na m e w a s . . . it w a s B o b B a r d o l' s fa t h e r. h ad t h e .. . t h e y w e r e f o r c e d t o c l o s e u p t oo. They A t one tim e th e r e w a s a g re a t b ig h o t e l on t h e lake f r o n t t h e r e at E r ie Beach , a b e a u t iful b ig place . . . d o rme r w in d o w s on the r o o f. E v e r y s o far t h e r e w a s a d o r m e r w it h a w in d o w , a n d e v e r y o n e of t h e d o rme r s w a s a r o o m in t h e r e . . . a l l l o o k i n g o u t o v e r t h e la k e . S.R: Was that the dance hall ? W.A: N o, t h a t w a s n ' t t h e d a n c e h a l l, t h a t w as t h e E r ie B e a c h H o t e l. T h e d a n c e h a l l w a s j u s t l i k e any o t h e r dance h a l l, j u s t a b i g dance hall, a n d c o n fe c t i o n s t a n d s in along the s ide w h e r e y o u c o u l d go and buy p o p, n o t h ing h a r d o f c o u r s e. You could buy p o p s , o r I g u e s s c ig a r e t t e s , a n d c a n d y a n d c h o c o l a t e b a r s . S.R: Th is E r ie B e a c h H o t e l t h e n , it w a s r ig h t in t h e E r ie B e a c h A mu s e me n t Pa rk? ( W.A: It w a s p a r t of t h e park. It w a s o w n e d I guess by t h e B a r d o ! C o m pany. M r. Bardo! a n d h is s is t e r ... ! d o n ' t know name now. them la t e r . w h a t . . . I c a n't t h ink o f h e r I d i d k n o w i t b e c a u s e I u s e d t o do a l o t o f w o r k for T hey owned it . I t bur n e d d o w n , a n d I don' t k n o w . . . y o u can' t say w h e t h e r t h in g s a r e s e t on f i r e or not, b u t it w a s n ' t pay ing t h a t ' s for s u r e . S.R: It w a s s u s p ic io u s . W.A: It w a s unde r s u s p ic ion at t h a t t i m e, y e s . . . but it c o u ldn ' t be p r o v e d t h a t it was t o r c h ed. It was a r e a l n ic e bu ildin g , a n d b a t h h o u s e s on pa r t of i t unde r i n the g round flo o r w h e r e you could r e n t a bath ing su i t . They h ad a beaut iful big pool t h e r e . The reason f o r t h a t was t h e s t oney-bed lake b o t t o m .. . very u n e v e n , and r ough s t o ne s . w a s an all c e m ented bottom in t h e r e , and a big h igh w a l l , a n d they pu m pe d t h e water from t h e lake o v e r t h e t o p in there. it all w ent t o pieces. It Lat e r y e a r s It wasn't d r aine d in t h e f a l l a n d fil l e d u p with w a t e r , a n d f r oze , a n d e xpande d a l l t h e w alls , a n d broke t h e m all do w n . They' r e p r o bably o u t t h e r e in the w a t e r y e t , s o m e o f t h o s e walls . S.R: I i m agine they a r e . I h a v e n e v e r b e e n o u t in t h e r e . You m entioned rides a n d diffe r e n t at t r ac tions th a t E rie Beach (18) �and Crystal Beach h a d to offe r . . . W .A: ( W e l l t h e rides . . . S.R: P ic k one , E r ie Beach or C ry s t a l Beach, a n d d e s c r ibe s o m e of the rides. W.A: T h e . . .! w o u l d s a y t h e c o m ing a t t r a c t ion in b o th places for kids w ou l d be t h e M e r r y - G o-Rounds , a n d t h e k i d s u s e d to flock on t h e Me r ry - G o- R o u n d s . Of c o u r se t h e b igger k i d s , the young fello w s a n d g i r l s w e n t f o r t h e s e c o a s t e r s , t h e g iant c o a s t e r s and th ings. They h a d dance halls in b o t h places a n d t h e y h a d rolle r r i n k s . S.R: W a s t h e dance hall a n d the roller r in k . .. in C ry s t al B e a c h . . . b o t h i n s ide t h e park i t s e l f ? W.A: B o t h i n s ide t h e park at t h a t t ime . La t e r t h e r o l ler r ink moved o u t s ide the park . The roller r in k is t here y e t t o d a y in opera t i o n o n t h e n orth s i d e o f E r ie R o a d . B u t at t h a t t ime is w a s in t h e park, a n d the d a n c e hall w a s in the park . The old d a n c e h a l l was turned into a re s t aura n t , a n d e a t ing pa v il ion in th ere and th ere was b ig s a n d h ill, a h u ge s a n d h ill there. a W h e n y o u w e n t d o w n on t h e m i d w a y y o u c o u l d n ' t s e e the l a k e f o r t h e s a n dh ill . T h e n t h e y c ame in t h ere w it h b ig pumps, a n d t h e y s t arted pump i n g w ater from the ( l a k e u p o n t o t h e s a n d , a n d were forc ing the sand out. I n other w ord s, t h e y washed a l l t h a t b ig s a n dh ill o u t i n t o Lake Erie, wh ich the w a ve s ca rrie d it a w a y a n d flat tened it all o u t. . . w it h b ig h o s e s a n d pumping w a ter t h rough i t . T h e n they b u il t the b ig d a n c e h a l l o n t h e s it e m a d e b y p u m p i n g the w a t e r o n t o the s a n d . . . pu m p ing t h e s a n d a w a y w it h t h e w a t e r , t h e y b u ilt t h is b ig, h u ge , ope n-a i r d a n c e h a l l t h e r e . S.R: Is it s t ill t h e r e ? W.A: I t ' s still t h e r e , t h a t ' s t h e B a l l R o o m t h a t t h e y ' r e h aving big bands t h e r e . . . S a m m y Kay e , T o m m y Dorsey, a n d I don't k n o w . . . s o m e o f t h e o l d b a n d s a r e s til l playing t h e r e c e r t ain nights a w e e k . .. one o r two nigh t s . I think they' r e t h e r e F riday and . . . ! don' t k n o w . . . I s h o u l d n' t say if I ' m n o t s u r e . . . b u t I s e e it in t h e p a p e r . They're playing t h e r e a couple of nig h t s j u s t f o r a t t ractions . .. the new o w n e r s are b ringing t h e m in. I d on't k n o w w h a t ' s t h e r e t h e rest of t h e w e e k, w h e t h e r it . . . p r o ba b l y j u s t c l o s e d u p t h e r e s t of t h e w e e k . T w o nig h t s a wee k a t the . . . they have t h e s e b i g d a n c e s t h e r e n o w ( and these b ig d r awing bands . S.R: D i d y o u t ra ve l by ferry m u c h , the s mall f e r ries tha t to o k y o u t o B uffalo? _ (19) �W .A: W e l l , I don' t think t h e y e v e r had a fe r r y run ning f r o m B u ffalo that I r e c a l l , o r ever h a v e heard o f , running t o C ry s t al B e ach. I t was j u s t a pas s e n g e r boa t . S.R: No, F o r t E r ie to B u ffa l o . W.A: The f e r r y no. It w e nt f r o m B r i d g e b u r g t o Black R o c k . N o , the fe r r y was in F o r t E rie in the s o u t h - e n d and it went . . . it was t h e r e w h e r e . . . prac tically at the end o f B e r t ie S t reet , t o w a r d s t h e b o t t o m of F e r ry S t re e t on the B u f falo s id e . S.R: Was that Black R o c k t h e n ? W.A: N o , Black R o c k ' s d o w n w h e r e t h e r a i l r o a d b r idge is. S.R: Oh, s o it w a s the D u m m y that w e n t f r o m . . . W.A: T h e D u m m y r u n f r o m F o r t E r ie o v e r t o B l ack R ock . S.R: W e r e t h e r e any s t o r ie s t h a t y o u r e m e m b e r a b o u t the fe r r ie s , o r t h e D u m m y , o r a n y t h ing l ik e t h a t ? W.A : W e l l , I u s e d to go w it h a g i r l in B u f fa l o , a n d a n o t h e r f e l l o w a n d I , he had an old M odel T car and w e went over. I s t a y e d w ith m y g i r l longer t h a n I should h a v e I g u e s s , a n d he d i d n ' t k n o w w h a t happened t o m e a n d h e h a d t o catch t h e l a s t f e r r y back , wh ich w a s m id n igh t . W h e n I g o t d o w n t h e r e h e w a s n ' t w a it ing f o r m e , h e w a s g o n e . ( So I e n d e d u p g e t t ing t h e s t r eet car to B lack R ock a n d ca m e t o F o r t E r ie on t h e D u m m y a n d h itch h ik e d f r o m F o r t E r ie t o R id g e w ay . . . w a l k e d the b iggest p a r t of t h e w a y . I d i d g e t a l i t t le r id e . S.R: You m a d e it h o m e by m o r n ing r igh t ? W .A: I got h o m e by d a y l i g h t t h a t ' s f o r s u r e . And a n o t h e r t i m e I g o t o n . a f r e ig h t t r a in t h a t I t h o u g h t , I k n e w w e n t t h r ou g h S t e ve n s v i l l e , w h ich w ou l d h a v e o n l y b e e n t w o m il e s f r o m o u r far m . I thought I c o u l d g e t o f f in S t e v e n s v ille t h e r e , and only h a v e t w o m il e s t o walk . W h e r e t h e walk f r o m F o r t E rie , s t raig h t u p B e r t ie R o a d , was . . . o u r fa r m w a s on t h e c o r n e r o f B e r tie and Ridge R o a d . S.R: W h e r e ' s B e r t ie R o a d , is it s till around ? W.A: D o y o u k n o w B e r t ie S t re e t i n F o r t E r ie ? W e l l that ' s B e r t ie R o a d . If you f o l l o w s t r aigh t w e s t u p it , i t t a k e s you rig h t t o w h e r e I w a s b o r n , on t h e c o r n e r of R i d g e R oa d and B e r t ie R oad. W e l l anyh o w , I g o t o n t h a t t r a i n going t o S t e ve n sville , and I though t I could g e t off i n S t e ve n s ville and only h a v e t w o miles t o w a l k . T h a t thing w a s e m pt y I g u e s s , it did n ' t have t o o much o f a l o a d , and it w a s r e a l l y travelling rig h t th rough . I g o t s c a r e d a n d w o u ldn' t j u m p off, and I w e n t c l e a r t o W elland. I had t o c o m e back t h e n e x t day (20) �h it c h h ik ing back and w a l k ing . . . ! d o n ' t k n o w w h a t all. I d id n ' t g e t . ( h o m e ' t il l t h e m i d dle o f the afternoon . .! k n o w t h e ne x t d a y . That w a s t h e las t time I ever a tte m p t e d that . S.R: S pe a k ing of t ravel, h o w o l d w e r e y o u w h e n y o u g o t y o u r f i r s t car ? W.A: I w a s s ix t e e n w h e n I got m y f i r s t car and it w a s a M od e l T F o r d C oupe. S.R: Do y o u r e m e m be r wh a t y e a r it was, h o w m u c h y o u h a d to pay for it . . . ? W .A: It was a 1 9 1 4 , it was t w o y e a r s old w h e n I got it. It was t w o y e a r s o l d w h e n I g o t it a n d I p a i d f o u r h u n d r e d d o l l a r s . . . f o u r h u n d r e d a n d t w e n t y d o l l a r s fo r it . S.R: D o y o u r e m e m be r t h e gas m il e age ? W.A: Y e s , we g o t a b o u t t w e n t y - th r e e o r f o u r m il e s to t h e g a l l o n. It w a s a fou r c y l i n d e r o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w . S.R: W a s t h a t c o n s i d e r e d g o o d g a s m ileage t h e n ? W.A: It w a s g o o d m ileage at th a t t i m e , y e s . S.R: E v e n c o n s id e r ing t h e s pe e d l i m it s w e r e l o w ? W.A: W e l l , the s p e e d l i m it s w e r e l o w a n d t h e t i r e s w e r e th i r t y by t h r ee a n d a h a l f , a i r t i r e s , a n d th e y w e r e f ifty - f ive p o u n d p r e s s u r e in ( the m . The t h r e e and a h a l f inch t i r e , w h ic h w o u l d be abo u t l ike t h a t , a n d y o u c o u l d g e t f ifty - f ive pounds o f a ir in th e m . p r e t t y near l ik e r i d ing o n a lu m be r w ag o n. It was You j u s t ban g , b a n g , b a n g , a n d t h e r o a d s w e r e a l l f u l l o f l it t l e p o t h o l e s at th a t t i m e . . . s t o n e r o a d s a n d t h e y ' d g e t a l l c u p s i n t h e m u n t il t h e y w e r e s c r a p e d a g a in , a n d t h e y put t h e s t o n e back in th e m S.R: D o you r e m e m be r t h e s p e e d l i m i t s ? . P ic k a m aj o r roa d , and w h e r e t h e y d iffe r e n t in t o w n ? . . . we d id n ' t have . . . there w a s n o c o n s t a b le s , n o c o p s at that t i m e at a l l . W.A: They h a d a t o w n c o n s t a b l e in R id g e w ay T h e r e w a s n ' t much a n d he w a s j u s t a s w o r n in g u y , s w o r n in g iv e n t h e auth o r it y t o m ake an a r r e s t . . . b y the t o w n counc il . H is na m e was . . . the f i r s t one I ever knew was t h e re , w a s S a m A n ge r , t h e T o w n C on s t a b l e . S.R: D id he have to make very m an y a r r e s t s? W .A: W e l l , y e s the k ids r a i s ing ca i fl around, t h e odd drunk g e t t ing in a fight o r s o m e t h in g ( . • . n o t too m any . I don' t know . . . a t that t i m e w a g e s w e r e a w f u l l o w and t h e r e w e r e no really b ig fact o r ies around . . . t h e n i c k le plant i n P o r t C o lborne w a s n ' t t h e r e , H o r t o n S teel wouldn ' t be t h e r e , _or a n y of t he m . W a g e s w e r e v e r y l o w y e t e v e r y body w a s (21) �w orking. What you w anted to buy w as very cheap . You could go out and buy a ne cktie for a quart er, and now you're paying eigh t , ( nine , and t e n dollars for one . Like I said earlier, you could buy a good pair of shoes when I w as a boy for a dollar and a half, a dollar and sixty cent s . .• and they w ere good shoes . . . good , best of leather at that time . S.R: Talking of pri c e s , do you re member the pri ce of gas or the pri ce of milk and eggs and but ter, any of the staples? W.A: Well eggs . . . m y m other used t o go to . . . had custo m ers, and her eggs were alw ays genuine fresh, as fresh as they could possibly be. People used to call up and w an t so m any do zen eggs delivered at the end of the week. She used to al w ays go on Saturday. When I w a s out of s chool I'd have to dri ve the horse and buggy for her to deliver around. Then end up w i th . . . whatever w as left over . . . cust omers didn't t ake , she'ci t ake to Beeshy's S t ore . . . that w as the dry - goods st ore. They used t o take them in as barter at that time. You could trade six or eigh t do zen eggs in at eigh teen or t w enty cen t s a do zen , trade them in for groceries , any kind o f gro ceries you needed. About t wenty, eigh teen t o t w enty cents a do zen for eggs, and about thirty-one ( or t w o cen t s a pound for butter. S.R: And gas? W.A: Gasoline, oh I don't kno w . I don't remember what gasoline w a s . It w as under thirty cen t s , but I think it w as about t w enty-eight or t wenty-nine cents a gallon, the first gas that I used to get . Then it got up t o w ards forty-some cent s , and we thought that w as terrible. S.R: N o w look at today. S.R: When you gre w up you used to live on a farm . D o you re call who the previous o wner w as , or who built i t , or what year it might have been built , or anything like that ? W.A: Well, I t old you that previously. A fellow by the name o f Anger, fro m Chippa w a , came up there and bought the farm . They got the farm and in later years my granddad bought it from a fellow by the name o f Anger. I don't kno w what year that w as. I kno w I was born there and I was born in 1 9 02 , so that's eigh 1fthree ye ars ago. S.R: ( What kind of farming was done ? W.A: Well, we had general farming in there . We had, usually had about ten or t welve head of cattle , m ilk cattle . Everything w as much harder . . . labour in those days and what it is now adays. We used (?. ?. \ �to sepa rat e the m ilk and make cream in the cre am separater that ( you had to turn by hand , like this, and spin it until it got so fast it sep a rated the cream from the milk. The crea m w ould come out one spout and the milk w ould come out another. You kept the cream a w e ek and then you w o uld have . . . I guess it soured and then you could churn it and m ake butter out o f it . The churns used to be like a s m all barrel, about that big around, and a V shapped fra rn e w ork . . . one - on e a ch side that this barrel used t o turn in, and it had a handle that run up and down, and it run on gears that turned this churn 'round and 'round. Someti mes it w as an a w ful j ob, depending on the temperature I guess m ore that anything else. I f it w as too cold you couldn't get but ter qui ck. Y ou'd turn and turn, churn and churn, t o get but ter, and if it w as too w arm i t w ould be the same w ay. My m o ther used t o put cold w ater in the churn sometimes and . . . whi ch it didn't do any dam age because it w ouldn' t turn into but ter. Nothing but the cream w ould turn into butter. When she put cold w ater in one t i m e and churned it about t w o or three minutes and you had but ter, and the next time you put cold w ater in you could keep right ( on for half an hour and you w ouldn' t get butter . . . put a lit t le w arm w ater in it and you'd get butter qui ck. But ter w as about thirty-one or t w o cen t s a pound at that time. They had a lit tle but ter press that you could squeez e it all down int o . It had a s creen on the b o t t o m a n d m others w as a leaf, a leaf and I d o n ' t kno w what . . . sorne thing els e . When you get it all pressed down in there tight, you pushed on a . . . like a stern plug that stuck up through the t op , and that w ould push the print of but ter out of this mold and it would have this m aple leaf and everything on it. You'd buy the papers , and wrap it all up in. You had to do all that , and churn it all , and seperat e it to get the cream and everything, and sell it for about thirty-one cents a pound. S.R: A lot of w ork. S.R: What affe c t s did the l)epression have on the farm and the family? W.A: The farrn . . . the pepression ? Well, I guess it didn't have much of an ... rnore affect on the farmers than it did anyone else. The people w eren't w orking and there fo}!!,t hey w ere scarce o f money and couldn't buy like they had been buying. They bought what the necessities w ere more than anything else. If you saw some nice • • • like the other day I bought a b asket of huckleberries and I paid a dollar and eighty- �nine cents for a pint . Well you w eren ' t spending m oney like that in those days in the t>epression t i m e . S.R: Did you go and pick your o w n ? W.A: Well, you could go up above Port C olborne and pick huckleberries, yes , in the m arsh up there . . • wild ones, but they w ere s maller than the domestic berry, but tasted just the same and everything. We used to go up there you kno w , in the � epression t i m e . I used to go up there , another fe llo w and I, drive a car T. too . .• . . . that w as an old M odel all the w ay t o Port C olborne and pick huckleberries. We had t w o boxes. One was fourteen and one w as eighteen quarts and they hooked t ogether w i th a rope around them . We used to shove a piece o f a board about four feet long , which w as planed the corners o f f nice and sm ooth, put it through the rope and s w ung it up o ver your shoulder and hang on the board to carry it so it w ould hold it up out o f the moss. Y ou'd sink down in the moss that deep. Y ou couldn 't carry them in a basket without holding your arm s like this (straight out in front ) and you can't do that . . . c arry a baske t , an eleven quart basket of berries very far b e c ause they'd get going down and finally they'd hit the moss and tip the basket and out goes your berries. Then you' ve really got a job picking the m out o f that m oss. But w e used t o sell them . I can re me mber when we w ere .. getting thirty cents a quart for those berries. And we w ere getting . . . picking . . . the bushels . . . w e w ere get ting thirty cents a quart , which was better than nine dollars isn't it? Thirty times thirty is nine dollars? Ten t i m e thirty is three and three times three is nihe . . . sure . We w ere getting nine dollars a day and that w as real m oney at that t i m e . You'd w ork all day long for . • • w e l l , t h e first job that I h a d after I left the farm w as in a quarry where they were crushing stone , down . here on the corner o f the Garrison, Num ber Three and Ridge R o ad in there . They got all the stone out of there t o do the Number Three High w ay to st one •.. • . • the first t i m e it w as ever stoned. That's going fro m clay not t arred yet . We w orked in there for • • • and got a dollar . • • didn ' t g e t a dollar. W e g o t sixty-five cents a n hour shovelling stone from down in the quarry into carts. And the carts w ere pulled on tracks, railway tracks up on the • • • lighter tracks of cours e , up onto a hopper where they w ere dumped and put through a crusher where they w ere crushed. W orking down there in that hole when it was eight-five. or ninety, it would be a hundred and ten down in there (24) we �and there w ouldn't be a dry stitch on ya for perspiration. S.R: And no bre e z e to help ? W.A: N o , you didn ' t get a bit of bre e z e . But you w ere glad of the job. A t that time sixty-five cents an hour was a heck of a lot of m oney. That's over three dollars a day. We used to w ork ten hours . •• ten by sixty-five w ould be six-fifty. W e w orked for a fellow that had the quarry. The one at that time w as R oy Law . In later years he opened a big one down here at Windmill Point where they go s w i m m ing in there . He opened that and operated that for several years a f t erw ards. S.R: D i d you kno w why he st opped? W.A: Why he st opped? Well yes. It w as all one sided down here . All these roads that he was get ting to build and having t o bid on w ere m ore or less westerly and this d o w n here . . . the ri ver here and the lake here , Lake Ont ario the o ther w ay . . . all he h ad w as just a s m all, such a s m all end here . He w ent up above Port Colborne and bought a big quarry up there , ri ght next to this huckleberry m arsh and opened it up up there . Therefore he w as near all the roads all around D unville, and West Cayuga, and all up through there . He w as m ore right on the spo t s . It saved an awful lot on transport ation. ( S.R: Y o u m entioned to me before about the Fenian R aid. Could you ple ase describe what you w ere t old by your parents or grandparents about the Fenian R aid, having t o do w ith your farm? W.A: Well, the Fenian R aids w ere a bun ch o f Iri sh people that came over here on an old scow and landed do w n below F ort Erie fro m Buffalo. I guess they thought Canada w as only a sm all pla c e and only four hundred of them could c o m e over and take C anada very easily . . . which they tried, but the people here put up quite a resistence and then the Queen's Own Army w ere sent d o w n by trai � to Ridge w ay, and m ar ched all the way from Ridge w ay out there . The m ain battle w as fought right above , on our farm and the next one t o it. That w as in 1 8 6 6 . I don't kno w how m any there w ere o f the Queen's O wn, but as soon as they found out that they w ere meeting a lot sti ffer resistence then they anti cipated, they retreated and w ent back and got on their scow and le ft . S.R: { The Fenians ? W.A: The Fenians le ft , yeah , and went back t o the States. I don't kno w w h a t they w ere. Just a bunch like t h e Irish today I guess, fighting over there and they don't kno w what they're fighting over. The , 1 .... ,.. , �of c o u r s e I w as n ' t b o r n t h e n , b u t t h e o l d e r p e o p l e a r o u n d t h e r e and ( talking t o diffe r e n t o n e s . . . . some o f t h e older fa r m e r s over t h e r e , t h e n e x t m o r ning b e f o r e the battle , s o m e o f t h e F enians w e n t a n d de m a n d e d m i l k a n d things f r o m t h e fa r m e r s t o h a v e for t heir b reakfas t . . . m e a t a n d eggs and w h a t e v e r t h e y could g e t . T h e n t h e y g o t back u p t h e r e in w h e r e t h e m ain b a t t l e actually w as , righ t on t h e B e r tie R o a d . A t t h a t t i m e t h e fences w e r e all rail fence s . T h e r e w a s no wire fe n c e s a t t h a t time, t h e y w e r e mostly oak t r e e s . . .oak s plit s very s t r a igh t . T h e y s p l it them by h a n d i n t o r a il s a b out twelve f e e t long a n d four o r f ive i n c h e s in d ia m e t e r . each s ide of t h e road. There w a s o n e of those on The F e n ians . . . f o r I guess, t w o o r three hun d r e d y a r d s . . . t ook t h e fence o f f t h e o n e s ide of t h e r o a d a n d c a r r ie d i t o v e r to the o th e r s ide of t h e r o a d . It w as n ' t a s o l i d f e n c e . T h e s e r a ils w e r e s p r e a d a p a r t . T h e r e w e r e s pa c e s b e t w e e n t h e r a ils a n d t h e y put the f e n c e f r o m one s ide of t h e r o a d o v e r t o t h e o t h e r s ide of t h e r o a d s o that it w a s d iff icul t t o s h o o t between t h e m w it h out the bul l e t s h it t ing the ra i l . T h e y w e r e l o w e r p o w e r e d c a l i p e r guns in t h a t day and i f t h e y h it a rail i t s tuck . . . it dj d ..Jt go on t h r ough . ( N o w , t h e n e w e r r iffle s , l i k e I us e d t o g o d e e r hun t ing w it h , t h a t I o w n e d , w o u l d s h o o t t h r ough t h a t r a il l ike a bun c h o f c h e e s e n o w , b u t t h e y w oul d n ' t at t h a t t i m e . S.R: T h e y w e r e b e h i n d t h e s e r a il f e nc e s . W h ich w a s a l m o s t l ike a s o l i d w a l l by put t ing t h e t w o f e n c e s t o g e th e r, right? W.A: It was close to solid. It w a s , due t o a l i t t l e b it o f c r a c k, a l i t t l e b i t of c r ook in t h e rail. . . th e y coul dn ' t g e t t ig h t toge t h e r b u t t h e y w o u l d p r o ba b l y b e like t h a t . S.R: P e e k y h o l e s to look t h rough . W.A: A b u l l e t c o u l d h it o n the e d g e of one and go t h r o u gh and find a m a r k i n t h e r e a l l righ t . It f o u n d enough t h a t t h e y did n ' t l a s t long . They t u r n e d , t h e y t u r n e d t ail and r u n b a c k for the riv e r a n d left . They did that . I know T h e y m o v e d the fence f r o m one s ide t o t h e o t h e r . m y b r o t h e r-in- l a w ' s fathe r was on a far m . T h e r e w a s one far m Jake far m e d t h a t w a s n ' t in the battle next t o h is . build ings o n it . I t was a vacant far m in t h e r e . There was n o They w e n t across t h is vacant far m o v e r t o h is place and w e n t in t h e barn w h e n he ( w a s milk ing a n d t o ok all the m ilk t h a t h e h a d m il k e d f r o m t h e m il k c o w s , a ri d t o o k t h e pa ils a n d e v e r y t h ing , and c a r r ied i t a w a y t o d r ink o r in a k e f o r c o f fee o r s o m e t h in g , I s u p p o s e . , ., ,,,. \ M y p u b l ic school �teacher, I think I w as probably in about the senior third in that time. What they call senior third book, and there was a j unior third and ( a senior third . This old Mr. A. W. R e avely, he was old enough that he kne w all about it and was telling about . . . he was the one that told us about them going there and taking the milk a w ay from this farm er to drink. They t ook the pails and everything, ye t never paid them a cent . I guess they were glad they didn't shoot . He also t old about finding this one soldier lying with his stom ach over this rock, dead there , and about t w o of them that w ere w ounded. They carried them into our . . . it w asn't ours at that t i m e . . . into the house that w as later o w ned . . . it w as run by Angers at that t i m e . Where t h e Angers w ere , I don't kno w . Whe ther they w ere still there or not I never h e ard . They lost an aw ful lot of blood in there , and I guess it was qui t e a m ess, but probably not near as much as it w ould have been t oday. Today they w o uld have fan cy rugs and everything on the floor. In those t i m e s a couple little scat t er rugs or some thing is about all they h ad . They could w ash the rugs, and s crub the floors , and it w ould be as good as ne w . S.R: All the tra ces w ere gon e . W.A: ( Y e ars later, when I w as quit e a good sized lad, I don't re call the fello w s nam e , but I did kno w it, but I can't re call it now . . . c a m e down here and he w as the Que en's O w n S oldier from Toron t o . He w as just com ing down to insp e c t the Fenian R aid grounds where the battle w as fought. He re m e mbered the old Athoe homestead there . H e re m e mbered that. We w ere showing h i m t h e h o l e s gouged o u t of the bri ckwork on the corner of the house where the Fenians w ould shoo t , and it would hit this brick, and it w ould glance off and take , cut a gouge out o f the bri ckw ork about that deep and about that wide. It j ust cut a groove ri ght out of it. Showing him that and then we told him . . ! happened to think about this bullet hole in the . wind o w j a m . Sho w e d him that and right a w ay he wanted it. My father, beings he w as a Fenian . . . Queen's Own Soldier . . . S.R: He had fought there righ t ? W.A: He had fought there . . . been there yes. He told him that if he w anted to go to the lumber mill in Ridge w ay and get a board the same width ( and as long as that one , a good planed, smooth, board, he could exchange it. Which he did. He didn't t ake the whole board. A ft er he got dow n below the hole about that far, and was about that far above (27 ) �the hole , and it split all the w ay from the hole to the t op because it w a s , the hole w as closer to the top than it was to the bottom . ( I suppose it split the way of the least resistence, which w ould be the short w ay up . He w ent down below it about the sam e distance , and sawed i t o f f . A l l he took w as the short piece a w ay back t o Toronto w i t h him . I suppose he . . . S.R: A souvenir? W.A: A souvenir of the old battle grounds. But later people used to come from all over. They came over there from Buf falo, and all around, and w anted . . . said that they heard about . . . this w a s the bat tle ground and w anted to . . . heard of the bulle t holes, the marks that w ere in the brickw ork, and w anted to see the m and everything. Why, w e h a d , for ye ars, people coming there . N o t now anym ore o f course. Tha t was over a hundred years ago ( the battle ) . S.R: D o you re m e m ber any other st ories that your parents or grandparent s migh t have told you involving the hist ory? W.A: R e garding the battle . . . the Fenian R aid Battle , you mean? S.R: Or just hist ory . Things that happened when they w ere younger or anything like that . S t ories that they migh t have just t old you, late ( at nigh t st ories, and stuff. W.A: Well, I don't kno w . S.R: D o you re m e m ber the ship yard s , whi ch is now the M arina o n the Niagara Boule vard? W.A: Y e s, very w ell. I w orked there . I w orked there in 1 9 1 8 and 19 1 9 for t h e C anadian Alice Chalm ers C ompany while I S.R: . They m ade four b o a t s . . three . w orke d there and one after I left . D o you kno w approxim at ely what years the Canadian Alice Chalmers o w ned it and if anything was done before they had it ? W.A: Well, the w ar started in 1 9 14, and I think it was going m aybe a year or t w o be fore they came in there . Probably about 1 9 1 6 that they start ed. I didn't w ork on the first boat , I w orked on the next t w o , and I didn't w ork on the last one . I w orked on the War Badger and the War Weasel, I guess it w as. Oh, I guess there w as about a hundred and thirty-five or forty m en w orking • • • e asily that m any I guess w orking in there on all the different machine shops and the ( garage. They had busses that they took w orkers back and forth to Fort Erie on. They come up there in the morning and put them in • . • busses in the garage. They w eren't big busses. They probably carry (28 ) their �fifteen t o t w enty m en. They put them in this garage and it was hid in the dayt i m e . They ' d w ork in there ( . • . the drivers w ould w ork in there all day cleaning the m , and polishing the m , and doing whatever they could. A machine shop , a blacksm ith shop, pump house . . . S.R: What was the pump h ouse for? W.A: Well, the pump house pumped w at er for any of the , anything that needed water there . The bathroom . . . they had a bathroom that used w at er at that t i m e . They pumped w ater for that out of the slip int o a, up into a t ank. The t ank w as on a trestle, or a pedestal, or a tripod a c t ually . .• a four legged tripod up in the air about thirty or forty fee t . Th ey'd pump it up into that , and then aft er that it w as gravity. It w ould . . . the w eight of the w ater in the t ank w ould force it through the lines so all the other buildings where any w a s required, w o uld get i t . My brother a n d I w orked there . We drove a h orse and cut t E=r in the winter and a buggy in the sum m er d o w n there . There w as a s m all barn o wned b y t h e ship yards across t h e road o n a different property though , b u t they o w n e d it and w e could put our horse s over in there . It was w arm enough . . ! don't think . w e even had to blanke t the horse in the winter. But com ing out , ( we had t o punch a ti m e clock t o get out , and also going in in the m orning. We had t o come out around the offi ces, up t o where this time clock w as. To do that w e had t o pass this big trestle that held this big w a t er t ank up on t op of it. One nigh t they got an , oh, t errifi c wind . The t ank up there , being large like it w as , got so much w e ight against it , it pushed on the tank t o the east. I guess the pressure , it was so strong, it got it tipping a little bi t , and then the water run in the t ank that w ay and kept put ting that much m ore pressure . Finally, the leg on that side buckled , the tank upset and came ri ght . down. The next m orning when w e w ent in, here w as the tank all sm ashed to pie c e s in the drive w ay. All the wind o w s w ere out of the office and everything because of the water hitting the ground and w ent side w ays. S.R: Like a tidal w ave ? W.A: Yes. It took all the windo w s and everything out of the office there. That w as in 1 9 1 8 or ' 1 9 . Up until 1 9 2 0 , I left in 1 9 2 0 . S.R: And it was still • • • oh yeah. You said there w as one more boat built after you left. W.A: It turned out to be a lake freighter and plied the Great Lakes. It (29 ) �didn't get into any of the army w ork at all, w ar w ork. S.R: Do you recall your w ag e s ? W.A: ( Y e s . My • . . when I started there I don ' t kno w whe ther or not I s t arted I don't recall ..• • • . when or when I was leaving I w as get ting sixty-five cents an hour. At that time I was running a drill and a rea m er, drilling any hole that w asn't punched out in the pun ch shop , you ' d have to put up what they c all an old m an . . . it w as a in b e t w e en them ..• . . • and you put your drill a s cre w in it where you'd s cre w it and put pressure on it and it w ould force your drill through the steel. Spinning by air of course . . . air driven. Sixty-five cents an hour I w as getting. I think that was probably when I w a s leaving. I don't re m e m ber what I s t arted in at. I w as there three years . . ' 1 8 , ' 1 9 ' and p art of ' 2 0 . . close . . to three years. I w as there and the boss came arid asked me if I'd go and ride the ship in when it was launched as a test cre w . Each one o f the hatches had a ladder from the t op all the w ay down to the bottom floor. These were oil burning ships and they had a double floor on the bottom . . . a rolling keel floor like. Th at was all subdivided off into compartm ents of about thre e feet square . But they had ( a space left open, a sm all space left open at the lo w er floor. That w as for the oil t o pass back and forth. But these bulkh e ads in there kept it . • . on a rough w ater, waves couldn 't get i t , slopping in there and roll the ship over. It kept the oil from slopping. We were w orking on that and the . ! think that there must o f been close t o a hundred . . and forty-five , fifty, thirty-fiv e , something like that, men w orking on all the different branches of it . What •.. there w as s o m e thing you asked me about . Oh yes . About this laun ching. He asked me i f I w ould like t o go i n o n a test. I didn't kno w what he m e ant exactly and he w as al w ays good t o me and very good and I didn ' t dare say no. So I says , oh yes. So there was a ladder w e n t up to t op of these hat ches to the t op deck, and soon as i t w as in the w a t er • • • they launched them all in side w ays on great big, about sixt een inch square timbers, all j ust saturated with grease • . • just as much grease • • • an inch o f i t thi ck, piled along o n t h e t op edges t h a t they w ere going t o slide on. When they got ready t o launch, they had a m an on each side of that t i m ber with big, I think, t en pound sledges, and they w ere driving these w o oden w edges bet w een the boat and the skid. A s they g o t enough • • • they got these driven i n tight enough, t h e wedges start ed moving the boat. Then as soon as the boat m oved and got (3 0) �on that grease , they w ould slide side ways right in and kind of rolled over, and tip, and drop into the slip , and they rocked back and forth. ( We weren't supposed t o go down there t o go through on the inspe ction until after it quit rocking . Well, I re m e mber when I w ent down the ladder, it was slipping back and forth on the hatch ye t . We had t o cra w l through from one hole t o the next hat ch w ay where there was a solid partition . The reason for that being that there could possibly have been a riv e t that was skipped . . • that w asn't driven and water w ould be spouting up in there . While i t w ouldn't be suf ficient t o sink the boat , i t w ould t ake an a w ful lot o f pumping t o get i t o u t and ke ep it out . A fello w w ould get a . . . they'd h a v e t o get i n there and thre ad it with a p i p e threader and s cre w a . . . ins t e ad o f put ting a rive t , they c ouldn't put a rive t i n b e c ause the w at er w ould m ake it cold and they c ouldn't riv e t i t . So they'd have to put in a s crew-in plug and then batter that over a lit t le on the inside. S o that's what I had t o d o , was cra w l from this one hat ch o ver to the other. Water had raised. It le aked down through there into these era w 1 holes in there and got i t all rusty in there , and when { w e come out , what a m e ss. Our pants were just black, dirty rust and our shirt and everything. We all put up such a ki ck t o the boss that he went and bought us e a ch a ne w shirt and a ne w p air o f trousers , and gave them t o us fre e . A while ago we were t alking and I w as t alking about the m an I m e t , the superint endent , and I c ouldn't think o f his nam e . His name is Sampson, Bert S ampson. He lived in F ort Erie down at C o zy Dell. S.R: Where 's C o zy D e l l ? W.A: C o z y Dell is about a m ile on down the river f r o !D. Fort Eri e . I gue ss it's all called Fort Erie no w , but at that time it w as called C o zy Dell, part of it down in there . We all got a ne w pair of trousers and a ne w shirt out of it any w ay, for our dirty mess cra w ling through there on our hands and • • • m ore or less on your knee s and your elb o w s. What w e had when w e w ent through there w a s a ham m er and four or five w ooden plugs, d o w n to points up t o about an inch in diam e t er at the t op end. In case w e did find a rivet that w as out w e had t o stick t h e point of it do w n there and drive it d o w n i n tight w ith this ham m er to stop the leak t e mporarily 'till they could get at i t to get in there with a drill • • • not a drill, but a threader, and thread this hole so that it was able , they w ere able t o scre w the plug into it. (� 1 ) �I don't kno w whether they found any or not but there w as none in ( m y section, fortunat ely for me anyh o w . It w as bad enough the w ay i t w as w ithout water coming in yet . S.R: Was that the first thing that was done there , the four ships being built by C anadian Alice Chalmers, or w as there anything done in ye ars before that at the ship yards ? W.A: Well, in 1 9 0 7 .•• I can re me mber it but j ust barely, I w ould be only five ye ars old . . . they built, I think it w as called the A. B. Ossler. Either A . B. or E. B. It w as built there . I don't kn o w . . • it cost so much a f t er the one w as completed they never started another one until the w ar w as on in 19 14. It started I guess, about 19 16. They . . . well they m ight have st arted in ' 14 . It w a s ' 16 before they got operating anyh o w , building the first boat in there . And they built four in there after that . . . three while I w as there and one after. S.R: D o you re call the c o m m unity that w a s kno w n as Shipyards, Ont ario? W.A: Well, t h a t w as . . . t h e y j ust called it the Shipyard s . I t w as j ust called the Shipyards b e c ause that w as where they made ships . It w as the only one bet w e en here and Chippa w a . It had this boarding house ( there, wh ere the m en could board there . I gue ss they'd most likely be single m en, boarded in there and had their m e als and everything there . It w as called the Green Goose . And there was a st ore there where they could go and buy che w ing toba c co for the che w ers or the sm okers , and gro ceries or anything . I gue ss men's w orking apparel m ore than anything else , heavy w ork sirt s and trousers , and boots, in the st ore . I think that was about all. There w as a couple o f farm houses right near there too , but I don't think they had anything t o do w i t h t h e plant operations. S.R: S muggling. Could you tell me what you re call about smuggling or stori e s you w ere t old about smuggling, or anything like that ? W.A: Well, my d ad and one of the other neighbours used t o s muggle oil from Buffalo across and • . • is that the one you w ould like to hear ? They'd go over and they'd g e t s i x o r eigh t barrels o f oil on a sleigh in the wintert i m e and bring it across with a team of horses with sharp shoes, so they wouldn't slip on the ice, and bring it back over ( and • • • I don't kno w • • • they saved a lot. Oil w as a lot che aper over there then it was here. I don't know what they saved. They saved a lot and m ade it w orth while . Anyh o w , in smuggling • • • ! guess • • . ! don't think they had anyone wat ching, partolling for it or not , I never �h e a r d of that .. . anything like t h a t . B u t I k n o w the one t i m e I h e a r d m y dad s a y t h a t , w h e n t h e y c a m e back , t h e r e was a c rack i n t h e ( i c e t h a t a l w a y s . .. b e c a u s e of e x pansion y o u k n o w , a c r a c k t h a t ran from Point A bino t o W in d m ill P o in t . I t ' s always t h e r e e v e r y year. W h e n I u s e d t o g o fis h ing o u t there that c r ack w a s always t h e r e . T h e y u s e d to h a v e t w o planks o u t t h e r e , one on e a c h s i d e . When w e w e n t o u t , i f it w a s o p e n w e p u t one o n t h is s id e ove r t o g e t a c r o s s o n , and t h e n t h r o w i t bac k . S o which e v e r way w e w e r e go ing w e a l w a y s h a d a plank t o g e t a c r o s s o n . U s ually i t n e v e r o p e n e d u p m o r e t h a n a b o u t f if t e e n t o t w e n ty inch e s . But one t i m e due to a b a d w in d o r s o m e t h ing , it o p e n e d u p p r e t t y n e a r fou r fee t , a n d t ra v e l l e d n o r t h . . . s o u t h . . . it t r a v elle d s o u t h . W h e n th e y c o m e b a c k w it h th is l o a d o f o i l , t h e h o r s e s g o t u p t h e r e a n d t h e h o r s e s w h e r e afraid to get across the crack. They had to get across because t h a t ' s t h e o n l y w a y they c o u l d g e t h o m e . S o th e y l e t t h e h o r s e s t a k e a g o o d l o o k a t it a n d t h e y c ir c l e d a r o u n d a n d w e n t b a c k o u t a r o u n d a h u n d r e d y a r d s m a y b e , o r s o , g o t t h e w h ip aft e r t h e h o r s e s a n d h a d t h e m r ig h t u p o n a d e a d r u n s o t h e y c o u l d n't s t o p . the w e ight o f t h e o il push ing t h e m , t h e y ' d h a v e to g o . ( Because When they g o t t o the c ra c k t h e y j u m pe d a n d t h e s l e igh w e n t b o o m p , b o o m p and d id n ' t b r eak t h r o u g h o r a n y t h ing, b u t t h e y got o v e r t h e c r a c k a n d g o t h o m e w it h t h e i r o i l . B u t , I don' t know, I guess that was a g o ing c o n c e r n f o r a l o t o f t h e far m e r s a r o u n d at t h a t t i m e . w a s p r obably a l o t of t h e m s m u gg l i n g . m y dad t e l l a b o u t w a s t h is o n e . There T h a t ' s t h e o n l y o n e I h e a r d. H e w a s I t h ink , o n l y a b o u t f o u r t e e n o r f ifteen y e a r s t h e t i m e that that h a p pe n e d . H e w a s r i d i n g w ith an older neig h bou r and t h e older neig h b o u r w a s an o l d h a n d at it. S.R: D o you recall any of the r u m - ru nning d a y s ? W.A: R u m - r u nning ? Well, yes . T h e r u m - runne r s are :.. it w a s d r y in t h e S t a t e s at that tim e a n d m o s t o f t h e booze that they d id dr ink w a s m a d e , I u n d e r s t o o d , u p in t h e s ta t e o f C o nnecticut . here .. . you c o u l d e x p o r t it . A lot of rum- runners You c o u l d g e t a bunc h , buying it f r o m a l i q u o r o u t l e t h e r e for e x p o r tatio n . They h a d e x p o r tations m a d e to P ue r t o Rico and all o v e r , a n d y e t t h e y c o u l d n ' t g e t t h e r e wi th these s m al l b o a t s . ( But they didn't care. They . .. s e l l ing t h e l i q u o r , w e r e m aking it out for w h e r e v e r t h e y t o l d t he m . They used t o s ta r t out after d a rk t o g o t o P u e r t o R ic o a n d t h e y ' d go out and c i r c l e the lake o u t h e r e b e f o r e d a r k , a n d they ' d g o out a n d c ircle t h e l a k e (3 3) �u n t i l it g o t d a r k a n d c o m e back d o w n t h e N iagara R iv e r a n d go ( o v e r t o t h e other s i de and unload it and it e n d e d u p in all t h e s peak- e a s y ' s and e v e r y t h ing in t h e S t ates t o be s o l d o v e r t h e r e . S.R: A l l t h e w h a t to be s o l d ? W.A: S pe a k - e a s y s they c a l l e d t h e m . D id you say speak-easy s ? B o o t l e g g e r s , they w e r e s e l l ing it illegally b e c a s u e t h e y c o u l d n ' t get a l i c e n s e to s e l l it at that t i m e , b u t t h e y ' d s t ill s e l l . T h e y ' d g e t a l o t m o r e f o r it t h a n t h e y w ou l d at a l ic e n s e d h o u s e . I k n o w , I w o r k e d f o r o n e fellow d o w n i n , h is n a m e w a s S u l l iv a n d o w n in F o r t E r i e , u p t o w a r d s E r ie B each a n d h e a n d h is t w o b r o t h e r s w e r e r u m - r u n n ing all t h e t i m e . Of course, t h e y k n e w m e fr o m be ing a c o n t r a c t o r a n d h e a r d o f m e s o m u ch t h a t t h e y k n e w t h e y c o u l d t e l l m e , or if t h e y w e r e o p e r a t ing u n d e r my nose and I ' d never say anything. T h e y w e re r u n n ing a l l t h e t i m e . T h e y t o o k a l l t h e fr b o o z e in c l o t h b a g s , i n b o t t l e s a n d b a g s . T h ey ' d h a v e a l l t h e s e b a g s r o p e d t o g e t h e r w it h a b o u t t h r e e f e e t o f r o p e between each bag. W h e n t h e y g o t g o ing o v e r d o w n t h e r iv e r , g e t t ing over near the S t a t e s . . . t h e r u m - r u n n e r s u s e d t o be p l y ing the r iv e r ( u p a n d d o w n p a t r o l l ing . O f c ou r s e t h e ir b o a t s w o u l d g o a l o t fas t e r and they could catch the rum- runners . They used to when one, t h e y ' d h e a r o n e c o m ing , t h e y ' d h a v e t h is , m ay b e s ix o r e ig h t b a g s o f b o o z e t ie d o n t h e r o p e s o n t h e b a c k o f t h a t b o a t . When they' d h e a r . . . a n d be t o w i n g it . . . a n d t h e y ' d h e a r a r u m - r u n n e r c o m in g , t h e y ' d t a k e a k n ife a n d c u t t h e r o p e a n d l e t a l l t h e b o o z e s ink t o t h e b o t t o m . They knew from t h e shore, they knew the shore real w e l l and they' d k n o w p r e t t y . near r ig h t w h e r e t h e y c u t it loos e , w it h i n a h u n d r e d feet or so maybe. T h e n e x t d a y t h ey ' d g e t o u t t h e r e w it h b i g g r a p p l ing hooks w h ich are abo u t e ight inch e s , and t h r e e of t h e m . . . one t h is w a y , a n d t h a t w a y , a n d one t h i s w a y . . . a n d t h e y ' d d r a g t h o s e back and f o r t h in t he r e . E v e ntually t h e y w o u l d c a t c h t h e r o p e h o o k ing t h is bag t o t h is bag. up. Then they' d b e a b le to pull the w h ole bunch T he n they' d r e c e ive it all that t h e y ' d cut lo ose t h e n i g h t b e f o r e . O f c o u r s e they m a d e . . . it was a rough r a c k e t but I g u e s s they m a d e a lot of money o n it . But h e u s e d t o t e l l m e that b e c a u s e h e k n e w I w o u l d n e v e r say a n y t h i n g . ( T h e y ' r e all d e a d n o w . . . a n d w a n t t o e v e n r e peat it n o w because t h e y w e r e a pretty rough b u n c h o f cus t o m e r s . T h e n t h e . . . I k n o w another fellow that , due t o w o r k ing on a h o u s e up at B u r na b y , a b o v e P o rt C o l b o r n e . They h a d a g r a v e l l e d r o a d t h e r e , g r a v e l l e d w it h l a k e s h o re g r a v e l , w h ic h is l ittle round s to n e s . �It w o n ' t pack tog e t h e r , it w il l . . . unle s s i t ' s m ix e d w it h d i r t or s o m e t h ing . ( If you g e t into it w it h a veh icle you r w h e e l s a r e g o ing t o t u r n in on it a n d you' r e apt t o b u r r y y o u r s e l f and get s tuck . We w e re w o rk ing u p at this Burnaby on a h o us e , and we w e r e stay ing . . . b e ings it was u p out t w e nt y m il e s to d r iv e , w e w e r e s t ay ing u p t h e r e , l iv ing in t h e garag e . We bu ilt t h e g a r a g e first and w e were l i v in g in c o t s , a n d cook ing on an o il s t o v e in t h e g a r age . heck, w ha t w a s h is last na m e . We m e t t h is D u k e . . . oh I'll g e t it aft e r a b it . . . w e met h i m anyh o w a n d h e k n e w u s , a n d w e w e r e w o r k ing t h e r e , a n d h e d idn' t h a v e any f e a r of u s . H e w a s do ing t h e s a m e t h ing . H e would work. . .h e w a s o p e r a t ing o u t o f H u m be r s t o n e . . . i t j o ins P o r t C o l b o r n e . I t is P a r � C o l b o r n e n o w , t h e s a m e as F o r t E r ie is all, and B r idge b u r g ' s all one. H u m b e r s t o n e an.ct P o r t C o l b o r n e u s e d to be s e pa r at e . He w a s o p e r a t ing o u t o f H u rn b e r s t on e a n d h a d a l a k e s h o r e c o t t ag e . H e ' d go d o w n to t h e l i q u o r s t o r e s a n d g e t a w h o l e b u n c h to s h i p it o u t a n d it w a s t o g o t o C le v e l a n d N e w Y o r k o r s o m e p l a c e a n d h a v e it d o w n t h e r e . H e ' d c i r c l e a r o u n d u n t il it got d a r k a n d h e ' d c o m e in a n d s t o r e it in h is c o t tage a n d h e ' d k e e p it in t h e r e m a y b e ( three o r four days, just s o they wouldn't be looking for h i m any m o r e , l o a d i t on a t n ig h t a ft e r d a r k a n d t a k e o f f a n d go d o w n a n y p l a c e b e t w e e n C l e v e l a n d a n d Bu f f a l o a n d u n l o a d it s o m e p l a c e w h e r e t h e y h a v e p e o p le g o ing t o m e e t h i m . S o o n e n ig h t w e w e r e . . . t h e r e w e r e t h r e e of u s s l e e p ing in t h is g a r age a n d a b o u t t w o o ' c l o c k i n t h e m o r n ing w e heard t h is eng ine r o a r ing l ike all g e t out. be D u k e a l r ig h t , o r s o m e of h is m e n . a s s is t anc e . W e figu r e d it w o u l d S o w e w e n t o u t t o offe r o u r W h e n t h e y s a w u s c o m ing w ith the i r h e a d l i g h t s , t h e y d id n ' t k n o w u s u n t i l w e g o t c l o s e r . . . t h e y h a d o n e fello w . He was I t a l ia n , a n d h e t o l d W in d to g e t a r o u n d t o t h e back of t h e c a r a n d w a t c h e d ' t ill h e found o u t fo r s u r e w h o w e w e r e . a r e volve r . And h e had a gun, W e g o t d o w n t h e r e a n d r ig h t a w a y h e s a w u s a n d k n e w u s a n d s a i d , o h , i t ' s alr igh t , a n d calle d m e by n a m e . A n d he c o m e around a n d w a s chuck ing h is g u n d o w n in h is belt . . . a n d t h e t h r e e o f us push ing on it w e w e r e able to p u s h h i m o u t . W h ile h e k n e w we w o u l d n ' t do any t h in g , but to be a l it t le b it safe , or k e e p o n t h e g o o d s ide o f u s , he gave us a b o t t l e of w h is ke y . ( W e l l , w e d id n ' t g o to b e d any m o r e that n ig h t , it w a s about t w o o' c lock in t h e m o r n in g . W e e n d e d u p g e t t ing p ie - e y e d a n d w e n t s w i m m ing a n d I don' t know w h a t all. S o w e u s e d to h a v e a lot o f fun but • • . he used to • . . he was �a rum-runner. ( D u k e , Duke , D u k e E l s . . . n o t E l l s w o r t h . o f h is last name any m o r e . I c a n ' t t h ink They s t il l have the h o t e l in H u m be rs t o n e , r ig h t as you go o v e r t h e H u m be r s t o n e B r id g e . I t w o u l d be t h e n o r t h b r i d g e in . . . a c r o s s t h e c a n a l in . . . w h a t is n o w k n o w n as P o r t C o l b o r n e . W e l l , w e u s e d t o h a v e a l o t of f u n . I know we was up there one t i m e , f o u r o f u s w o r k i n g , a n d t h a t w a s aft e r w e w e r e b u il d ing t h e house. H e c a m e a l o n g t h e r e t h is one d a y , a n d c a m e in and s p e n t the t i m e o f day m o r e or les s , f o r a m in u t e o r t w o w it h u s a n d b r o u g h t in a c a s e of b e e r . A n d a t t h a t t i m e w e w e r e c o m ing b a c k h o m e . I t h ink w e w e r e u p d o i n g s o m e r e p a i r s o r s o m e p i c k - u p w o r k , o r s o m e t h in g t h a t h a d n ' t b e e n f i n i s h e d . W e g o t p r e t t y w e l l po[ u t e d w it h t h e c a s e of b e e r anyh ow , a n d c o m ing h o m e to R id g e w a y ; t h e o n e f e l l o w t h a t w a s d r iv ing h a d a M o d e l T T o u r ing C a r . That ' s t h e o l d fas h i o n e d , a n d it h a d t h e s i d e c u r t a i n s a n d e v e r y t h ing o n i t . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u ' d r e m e m be r t h e m o r n o t . I s i n g l a s s in t h e s i d e s f o r t h e w in d o w s . N o t l ik e l y . It w a s s t u ff t h a t w o u l d b e n d . I t ' s l ik e t h e s t u f f t h a t t h e y h a v e i n s t o v e s t h a t y o u c a n s e e f i r e t h r o u g h o r any t h ing . I like g l a s s . Y o u c o u l d s e e t h r ou g h it b u t it w a s n ' t s t iff T h a t was what t h e c a r w a s built . . . h a d g l a s s e s like t h a t . . . o r w in d o w s l i k e t h a t . W e got p r e t t y n e a r d o w n t o S h e r k s t o n t h e n a n d I h a d . . . I h a d a d a t e t h a t n ig h t a n d w a n t e d t o g e t h o m e e a r l y a n d w e w o r k e d a l it t l e lat e r b e t w e e n d r in k ing a n d f in i s h ing . I was w a n t ing t o get h o m e a n d I s a y s t o t h e g u y d r i v i n g , I s ay s , won't t h i s th ing go any fas t e r ? I can r u n fas t e r t h a n t h at ' s g o i n g . I ' d l ik e to s e e y a . I s a i d , l e t me out . r ig h t along s ide o f it . He says yeah , B u t I g o t o u t a n d w a s r u n n ing H e l e t m e k e e p e v e n w it h him f o r quite a w h ile and f inally s t a r t e d go ing ah e a d . H e g o t ahead of m e fo r , q u i t e a l i t t l e b i t ahead , a n d h e s t o p p e d and w a it e d ' t il l I caught up and said, w e l l a r e you ready t o g e t in o r n o t ? all g o t u s into t ha t . S.R: The r u m - r u n n e r s W e u s e d to have a l o t of fun u p t h e r e . D o you k n o w any t h ing about the railroad d ay s ? When the railroad was r eally g o ing s t r o ng in the area. W.A: W e l l , t h e r e used to be a lot of t r a ins w e n t t h r o u g h R id g e w a y h e r e . F re ight w a s t e r r i f ic at that t i m e . t h e road. There w as no t r u c k s much o n A ll freight w as pract ically d e l i v e r e d by r a ilroad going t o B uffalo and back and fo r t h . Oh, there w a s a lot o f t r a ins g o ing t h r o u g h R idgeway at that t i m e . T h e y ' r e all c a n c e l l e d out now . Now there isn' t a one any m o r e . They got t o r u n o n e e v e r y h u n d r e d (36) y eo. r s �to k e e p t h e i r franch ise , and that ' s all. it o r n o t I d o n ' t k n o w . ( go ing pas t . S o whether they'll ever keep B u t at t h a t t i m e t h e r e w a s a lot of t r a ins P as s e n g e r t r a ins were g o ing all t h e t i m e back and forth to Buffalo, and all t h e w ay u p to G o d e r ic h in C a n a d a . I guess you went all t h e w a y t o W in d s o r and D e t r o i t , b u t you h a d to change once o r t w ic e t o g e t t h e r e . B u t there w a s a b u s y t i m e at that t i m e . We h a d a g o o d s t a t io n h e r e i n R id g e w a y . W e h a d t w o ope rat o r s , a n ig h t a n d a d a y o p e r a t o r a n d t h e y h a d t o w o rk t w e l v e h o u r s h i ft s . S.R: Do y o u r e c a l l a n y n a m e s ? W.A: W e l l , A l b e r t Y a k , h e w a s t h e s e n i o r o n e a n d h e h a d t h e d a y sh ift be ings h e h a d p r e f e r e n c e and, oh w h at was . . . K e n d r ic k , oh . . . h is las t name was Kendr ick . S.R: H e w a s the fellow t h a t d id t h e n ig h t sh ift . D o y o u r e m e m b e r a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h e y e a r o f t h is ? A rou gh e s t i m ate on h o w o l d y o u w e r e . W.A: W e l l , I d o n ' t know . I w a s o n t h e h ig h s c h o o l b o a r d s e v e n y e a r s , a n d t h is A l b e r t Y a k , t h e f e l l o w t h a t w a s d a y o pe r a t o r , w as o n t h e h ig h s c h o o l b o a r d the s a m e t i m e I w a s . A n d t h e h ig h s c h o o l w as b u ilt in 1 9 27 so M r . Y a k , he w a s on t h e r e t h e n y e t , an d t h a t w a s 1 9 27 . ( S.R: S o it w a s b e f o r e 1 9 2 7 ? W.A: Yeah , b e f o r e 19 27 . A n d t h a t ' s the s a m e s t at i o n t h a t w a s lat e r m o v e d t o F o r t E r ie , u p n e a r H o r t o n S t e e l . S.R: l s t h e r e o n e i n R id g e w a y n o w ? W.A: N o , no s t a t io n . S.R: Th e r e j u s t w a s n ' t e n o u g h b u s i n e s s f o r t h e t r a i n t o w a r r a n t a s t o p T ha t s t a t io n ' s all g o n e . i n R id g e w a y ? W.A: W e l l , a l l the f r e ight was cut o u t , or t h e b ig g e s t p a r t was a l l c u t out . T r ucks c u t t h e m o u t . T h e ra ilroads for a l o n g run . . . l ik e if you w a s go ing t o sh ip s o m e t h ing t o W innipeg o r w a y out to t h e C anad ian w e s t , a long run, it w a s much cheape r to run by r a ilroad than it was b y t r u c k , b y gas p o w e r e d v e h i c le s . pa r t of it out t o t r u c k ing l ines . p u t t h e m out h e r e . S o they lost t h e b ig g e s t I t h ink t h a t ' s reall y , p r o b a b l y w h a t N o t only that , b u s s e s put t h e pas s e ng e r s e r v ic e out of c o m m is s io n as w e l l . N o t only that , t r a ins o n l y s t o p at c e r t a in s t at ions and s o m e of t h e m w e r e quite a lo ng w a y s a p a r t . There was n ' t any b e t w e e n P o r t C ol b o r ne a n d D u n v ille fo r instance. ( I ' d s a y Dunnv ille w a s f o r t y a n d t w e l v e . .• t w e nty-e ight m iles . t w e n ty - e ight m il e s t h e r e b e t w e e n s t a t ions . And There's W h e r e t h e b u s w il l l e t y o u o f f a t any l i t tle s ide r o a d o r anyth ing you w a n t e d t o d o . (37) �S.R: ( So y o u w o u l d s t ill have to g e t a bus o r a t ax i ? So even e x p e ns e w is e it w o u l d be m o r e e x p e n s ive u s ing t h e t r a in . W.A: T h a t ' s r ig h t . and busses . not. The r a il r oa d s got p i n c h e d out o f b u s iness by t r u c k s A n d I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r it w il l e v e r c o m e b a c k o r I thought about that d iffe r e n t t i m e s m y se l f . If g a s o l ine k e e p s g ing u p , and u p , and u p l ik e it is , a n d soft c o a l . . . all t h e r a il r oa d s f i r e d w ith s oft c o a l w h ich is t h e c h e a p e s t k ind of c o a l g o in g . A l be r t a ' s g o t m il l ions of t o n of it o u t t h e r e . And A l o t o f i t ' s . . .I ' v e b e e n t h r o u g h t h e m and a lot o f t h e m in e s o u t t h e r e , t h ey ' r e all s u rface m in e s . Y o u don't e v e n n e e d t o d ig down in . . . t u n n e l d o w n in t h e g r o u n d f o r it l ik e t h e y d o o u r c o p p e r a n d g o l d a n d the o t h e r m in e s h e r e i n , a n d r o c k in O n t a r i o . m in e s . O u t t h e r e it ' s a l l , a l o t o f i t ' s a l l s u r fa c e V e r y c h e a p t o m in e a n d g e t , s o if g a s o l i n e k e e p s g o i n g u p f o r t h e t r u c k s a n d t h ings a n d g e t s s o s c a r c e , i t m ig h t c o m e b a c k t o t h e r a il r o a d s o m e t i m e , a n d w e ' l l h a v e t o g o b a c k a n d c o m e i n t o g o i n g b y w it h f ir e a n d c o a l . S.R: W it h t h e w a y t h ings a r e t h o u g h t a b o u t p o lu t io n , t h a t p r o b a b l y w on ' t happen. ( W.A: B u t I h o pe I n e v e r s e e it . A l l t h e c o a l s m o k e in t h e a ir a n d s t u f f . W e l l , I d o n ' t kn o w . T h e . . . a c t u ally I d o n ' t t h ink t h e t r a ins m a d e any more s m ok e t h a n t h e busses a n d t r u c k s d o because t h e r e ' s s o many more of the m . S.R: Y o u w e r e a m a s o n c o n t r ac t o r . I s t h e r e a n y b ig j o b s o r a n y j o bs h a v ing t o do w ith h is t o r ic a l t h ings t h a t y o u ' d l ike to ta l k a b o u t ? W.A: W e l l , i n 194 0 , I had a j o b b u ild ing a p r iv a t e h o m e up on the lake front a b o v e P o int A b ino a b o u t a m ile , f o r a B u ffalo m a n . H e was a c o n t r a c t o r l ik e w i s e . B u il d ing A nd t h is w a s a f i r e p r oo f b u il d ing . t h e floor was all made o u t of w h a t they call flex i- c o r e s , w h ich w as a b o u t a foot w id e and a b o u t s e v e n i n c h e s d e e p and t h e r e w a s t w o t h r e e inch h olesth r o u g h t h e m e n d t o e n d . T h os e w e r e a l l r e info r c e d w it h r o d s , and t h e y f it t i g h t t o g e th e r on t h e b o t t o m . They, w ere m a d e i n for m s t h a t w e r e s h a k e n s o t h a t t h e y w e r e as s m o o t h a s c a n be u n d e rneat h , a n d t h ey w e r e m ad e l ik e a V - j o int o n t h e b o t t o m . The n o n the t o p , t h e . . . t h e r e w a s a c r a c k b e t w e e n each one about t h r e e quar t e r s of an inch w id e and there w a s a groove in each one , you h a d t o put a bea m across t h e t o p and b o l t s and pull t h e m u p ( so t h e y w e r e all o n e leve l . T h e n y o u po u r e d c o n c r e t e d o w n t h e r e and in t w o o r t h r e e d a y s w h e n i t got h a r d , be ings they' d g o b a c k in t h e s ide c r a c k s in each bea m , t h e w hole t h ing could n ' t m o v e . (38) �They h a d to s t ay p e r fe c t l y l e v e l and it m ad e a n ic e s m oo t h c e iling a n d e v e r y t h in g . ( S t a ir w ay s w e re all concrete a n d steel a n d e v e ry t h i n g . T h a t w as my b igges t j o b . I h a d e l e v e n b r ick lay e r s on t h a t , p l u s f ive h e l pe r s I g u e s s . S.R: W a s it s o m e t h ing n e w t o b u i l d a f i r e p r oof hou s e ? W.A: W e l l , it was a f i r e p r o o f h o u s e and it was m o r e or l e s s I t h ink s u p p o s e d t o be an a d f o r t h e s e fle x i- c o r e s . . . f ir e p roof floo rs , and a l s o s o u n d p r o o f . B u t a n y h o w it t u r n e d o u t th is f e l l o w w a s a c o n t r a c t o r in B u ffalo h i m s e l f , and h e w a s b u i l d ing the West S e ne c a H ig h s ch o o l at t h a t time. T h e b r ick lay e r s c o n t r a c t r u n o u t o v e r t h e r e , a n d th e y w e n t out on s t r ik e . A n d h e ' d f igu r e d t h is in at a c e r t a in p r i c e p e r h o u r f o r t h e b r ick lay e r s a n d w h e n t h e y c o m e b a c k in t h e y g o t e ig h t y c e n t s a n d h o u r m o r e t h a n w h a t h e h a d f igu r e d in o n the c on.t r a c t . T h e f e l l o w s t h a t r u n t h e l ift s , engine e r s , t o o k t h e f r e ig h t e l e v a t o r s u p a n d d o w n , w h e el b a r r o w s f u l l of br ic k s a n d c o n c r e t e a n d e v e r y th ing , t h e y got I t h ink a d o l l a r an h o u r m o r e . A n d not only t h a t , t h e y got a r i d e r in t h e ir c o n t r a c t that they c o u l d n ' t s h ift t h e m m o re t h a n once a d a y . ( A s f o r s h ift ing I m e a n . . . t h e y c o u l d ta k e t h e m off t h e l ift , t h e e l e v a t o r took t h e m u p a n d d o w n a n d p u t t h e m on a c r a n e t h a t l if t e d t h e b i g s t o n e s il l s u p f o r under the w in d o w s , a n d s w ing the m a r o u n d a n d l e t t h e m in p l a c e . o r ig inal c o n t r a c t o r t h e y ta k e a n d d o t h a t . T h e y take t h e m . . . t h e T a k e t h e m o f f t h e l ift a n d p u t them o n t h e c r a n e , a n d put the m f r o m the crane back o n the l i f t . T h e y c o u l d n ' t do that in the n e w c o n t r ac t . If t h e y g o t t h r o u g h t h e . . . p u t t ing t h e s ills u p at t h r e e o ' c l o c k i n the aft e r n o o n , t h e y h a d to p a y t h e m t h e e x t r a t w o hou r s t h r o u gh ' t il l f iv e o ' c l o c k and t h e y d id n ' t do a n y t h ing . the m a c h i n e . They' d h a v e t o g e t ano t h e r guy c o m e o u t a n d pay h i m a half a day . t o bankruptcy. A n d not o n l y that , t h e y c o u l d n ' t u s e So b e t w e e n t h e t w o , i t put B i i l B o r na m in t h r ough H e came over t h e r e two days in a r o w a n d s a t t h e r e fo r a c ou p le h o u r s o u t o n t h e balcony and t e r r ac e , j u s t l o o k i n g a t the water. w it h B il l . A n d I said t o the men. I s a i d s o m e t h ing is t h e m a t t e r I s a y s h e ' s not r igh t , h e wasn' t talk ing and a t t h e e n d of t h e s e c o n d day h e c o m e o v e r and s a i d t o m e , B il l h e s a i d , I ' v e g o t s o m e t h ing t o t e l l y a . ( you a s w e l l as i t d o e s m e . H e s a y s , i t ' s s o m e t h ing t h a t c o n c e r n s H e s a y s , I' m going t o h a v e to g o t h r ou g h bank r u p t c y on t h a t s c h ool j o b . A n d h e says , I m ig h t not b e able to pay you . S atu r d ay n ig h t f o r t o c o v e r y o u r e l e v e n m e n and y o u r (3 9 ) �five helpers and yorurself. H e say s , if y o u . . ; a r e you f inanc ially s it u a t e d that you can c a r r y me as long as t h r e e w e e k s at a t i m e ? ( A n d I gave it a r ough th o u g h t and I , m o r e o r l e s s t h i n k i n g , w e l l , w h a t a m I g e t t in g int o h e r e ? I t w a s n ' t t h a t I c o u l d n ' t financ ially I c o u l d have d o n e that alr igh t . to let you k n o w about that. S o f inally I s a i d I said , I'll , , w e l l B il l , I ' l l have let you know t o m o r row . S o he c o m e o v e r t h e n e x t day a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I could l e t h i m h a v e t w o w e e k s a n y h o w a n d pos s i b le t h e t h i r d w e e k , if I h a d t o . H e w a s as hone s t as t h e day w a s lon g . H e c o m e o v e r at t h e e n d of o n e w e e k a n d g ive m e s o m u ch a n d t h e e n d of t w o w e ek s h e c o m e o v e r a n d g a v e m e s o m u ch m o re . Three weeks h e gave m e more, a n d w h e n I g o t a l l f i n is h e d I w a s a l l p a i d u p a n d h e n e v e r o w e d m e a n ic k l e . B u t h e o w n e d p r o p e r t y i n C an a d a t h a t , a n d t h a t ' s w h a t c a r r i e d h i m t h r ou g h o v e r h e r e . B e c a u s e g o ing t h r o u g h b a n k r u p t c y o v e r t h e r e , t h e y c ou l d n ' t a t t a c h a ny t h i n g o v e r h e r e . H e w a s h a v ing in c o m e c o m i n g f r o m p r o p e r t y a n d s t u f f that he o w n e d o v e r h e r e in C anada. H e h a d to g o back a n d s t a r t o u t f r o m a s h oe s t r in g . H e w e n t b a c k i n t o t h e p a i n t i n g b u s i n e s s , w h ich h e w a s a pa i n t ing c o n t r a c t o r o r ig i nally . { Two o r t h r e e guys a n d a n old b e a t u p van a n d s o m e la d d e r s , w e n t b a c k p a i n t ing h o u s e s , a n d a ny t h i n g h e c o u l d g e t , w o rk i n g h is w a y b a c k u p a g a i n . But h e . . . betw een the loss and, I s u p p o s e t h e h u m il i a t i o n , o n e t h ing an d a n o t h e r , a y e a r a n d a h a l f af t e r w a r d s h e d r o p p e d d e a d o f a h e a r t a t t a c k . H e never owed me a n ic k l e , b u t he c o u l d h a v e o w e d m e q u i t e a l o t a t o n e t i m e . That w a s m y m a in b i g job . B u t I b u i l t t h e f i r e h a l l h e re in R i d g e way a n d I bu ilt t h e R i d g e D a i r y in C ry s tal B e ach , a n d t h e y we re g o o d s i z e d b u i l d ings t o o . B u t t h e r e is n ' t e n o u g h b i g b u i l d ings g o i n g o n d o w n h e r e t o k e e p a f e l l o w b u s y w it h m a n y m e n . B u i l d in g s a r e s m all a n d if you ha ve four o r five m e n , t h a t ' s about all you could g e t w o r k e n o u g h ah e a d a t one t i m e t o k e e p g o ing . S.R: A re t h e r e a n y c l o s ing c o m m e n t s , o t h e r c o m m en t s that you w ould l ik e t o m ake at all ? W.A: W e l l , I d on ' t k no w . It l o o k s to me as if t h e fut u r e ahea d , e s p e c ially fot the young e r g e n e r a t i o n , that . . . c o m ing on now , that unless they g o t h r ough college and g e t a d e g r e e of s o m e kind, o r get a good ( trade of some kind, t h a t w ould b e my a d v ic e t o t h e g r o w ing up young people o f today . They need t o g e t a degree in s o m e th ing o r a good trade, other tha n that it looks t o m e as if they're g o ing t o end up (4 0 ) �dit ch diggers or som e thing for the rest of their life. The competition's too keen. ( S.R: There's too m any people and not enough j obs. W.A: N o t only that , but the nickle plant , when they first started up here it w as only three companies. They could sell nickle any place they w anted and as much as they could produce . N o I underst and there is over forty of the m . That's in Europe and all over. The competition's ke en. It usesd t o be the companies all hated the m be cause they w ere paying high w ages and they w ere exp e c t ed t o meet their w ages. No w the nickle plants h ardly keep . . . are able to keep their o wn h e ad above the water. In f a c t , there's t alk even o f Port Colborne shut ting d o w n , and operating only from Sudbury. It might even c o m e t o that . S.R: So there's enough ni ckle that people aren't going t o pay the high pri ce no w . W.A: Well, the pri ces h ave dropped down beings they can't sell it and with w ages going up . I t ' s . . . well everythl �. is changing over. Drastic change is t aking place right over nigh t . S.R: Is that all for your closing c o m m ents? W.A: Well, I can't think o f anything else . I w ould think th ough that . . . like I said to repeat , that I think a young fello w t oday should either get a good trade or a good education. S.R: If he w ants t o support hi m s e l f and a family. W.A: And support him sel f and a family and keep steadily e mployed. S.R: Well, thank you very much for the intervie w Mr. Athoe. W.A: Well, I'm glad you w ere able to come up and int ervie w me. I'm sorry I couldn't tell you m ore than I did, but I did tell you a l o t , probably half of it's not very interesting. S.R: No, it's all interesting. (4 1 ) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Transcripts Subject The topic of the resource oral history, Fort Erie Description An account of the resource Transcriptions from interviews of various Fort Erie residents conducted in 1985 by the Fort Erie Public Library Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fort Erie Public Library Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived FEPL- LH - Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fort Erie Public Library Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Shelley Richer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. William Athoe Location The location of the interview. Mr. Athoe's home at 3836 Highland Avenue Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History - Athoe, William Description An account of the resource This is the transcript of William Athoe's interview. He discusses such topics as: Medicine Transportation Heating Schools Churches Wedding traditions Politics Stores Hotels and taverns Erie Beach Policing Bootleggers (American Prohibition) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 26, 1985 1980s 1985 Erie Beach Fort Erie Oral history shelley richer transcripts william athoe