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This is Shelley Richer interviewing Ross Brown in his home at
5 Jessie Street, on July 19,1985 .
S.R:
Hello Mr. Brown. How are you?
R.B:
Fine, thank you.
S.R:
What is your date of birth?
R.B:
January the 26th, 1905.
S.R:
Where were you born?
R.B:
On Dufferin Street in Fort Erie. It was Bridgeburg at the time.
S.R:
Have you lived in the area all of your life then?
R.B:
I have.
S.R:
Could you tell me what school you attended and where it is located?
R.B:
Rose Seaton, and it's not there any more. It's tore down. It
was on Phipps Street. The one they tore down and built it over
here on the other street.
S.R:
Do you know why they tore it down?
R.B:
Oh, I don't know.
S.R:
How far away from home would your school have been?
R.B:
Oh, two blocks at the most.
S.R:
How did you get to school then?
R.B:
Walk. Walked to school. Oh, we used to go to school bare footed.
S.R:
Could you describe your school and your teachers names and
the number of students?
R.B:
I remember we had a teacher Jane Gerrard. I think it was two
sisters. I think the other ones name was Hel en and she was
a wonderful teacher. She was very strict and she'd take a striap
and hit any kid in any seat. She'd just throw from that desk and
she should have been a ball player. Hughie Henderson was the
principal.
S.R:
Could you describe your school, like it was when you started?
R.B:
When I went there was two rooms downstairs and two rooms
upstairs. There was.. .in the hallway in the front there was stairways
went up this way and this way. And that side was the boys side
and this was the girls side. And we wasn't allowed on one anothers
side cttrecess. The girls stayed on their side and the boys stayed
on their side.
S.R:
Did the school change at all after that?
R.B:
Oh yeah. They built some on the back and there was more rooms.
(1)
�S.R:
R.B:
No. It was there when I went to school. That's all I know.
S.R:
(
Do you remember what year it was built?
Is there anything interesting you can remember about your school
days? Any little stories.
R.B:
Well the first coloured boy ever went to the school here, there
was fourteen of us got a whippin' for calling him chocolate drop.
In them days you got a whippin' on the hand with a strap. We
got it pretty good. That was Mr. Henderson, the teacher was
at school, the principal was. My grandfather donated part of
his property for a coloured grave yard there, way back, years
and years back. I can't tell ya...on, Ridgemount Road and...it's
near the grave yard...what do you call that grave yard...the Ridgemount
Grave Yard. He donated the property for the coloured people.
Now they're living at this end of the town. They had to go up
to the other end of the town, Old Fort Erie, and there was, up
on the hill there, and they used to have to live there. They didn't
belong in this end.
S.R:
R.B:
No.
S.R:
You were never a church attender or anything like that?
R.B:
(
Are you a member, or have you been a member of a church?
The wife and the kids are. My kids went to sunday school and
I believe they should go.
S.R:
What church was your family brought up in then?
R.B:
Presbyterian.
S.R:
And where is that church?
R.B:
Highland and Central. Saint Andrews Knox Church.
S.R:
Do you remember what year it was built?
R.B:
1930. Opened in 1930.
S.R:
Have you ever been in it to know any changes that took place
in it, or if there was any additions or anything like that?
R.B:
Yes,11 was in it when my kids got christened. One time I was
in uniform when I came. back. We had our boy christened because
he was born when I was over... when I was in Newfoundland. When
I come home we went to the church so he could be christened.
I took my daughter down the isle when she got married. That
(
church burnt down. The original Presbyterian Church was on
Courtwright Street. You know where the bowling alley is now
on Court.. . just around the corner on Courtwright Street there?
(2�)
�Well just around the corner towards the river, back of the garage
there was a big building. It was a Presbyterian Church. My mother
(
used to look after it, do the cleaning in it, and that's why I remember.
When I was a little boy she used to take us there when she did
it. This would be around, maybe 1910 or 11. That church burned
down.
S.R:
Do you remember about what year?
R.B:
I don't remember what year but it's a long time ago. It burnt
down in thirty-one.
S.R:
Some of the changes in the area. Could you describe the old boundaries?
R.B:
Well. Bowen Road. Gilmore Road was a boundary between Old
Fort Erie and Bridgeburg. And Bridgeburg was called International
before Bridgeburg, and before International it was called Victoria.
S.R:
Do you know why the names changed so much then?
R.B:
Well, International was changed on account of the bridge being
built, this railway bridge called International Bridge. So they
changed the name from Victoria to International. Yeah, International
Bridge. Then when it got changed to Bridgeburg... I don't know
when that happened. It's been Bridgeburg pretty well as long
(
as I remember. The other is history you know, what I've been
told in school.
S.R:
Then there was three areas in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Yeah, there was Amigari, Fort Erie and Bridgeburg.
S.R:
So then Amigari was the Thompson Road.
R.B:
Yeah, Amigari was the... that end of the...the top end of Gilmore,
right by the railway tracks there. You know where the hotel
is there across from the race track? That was Amigari. You
know where the...well there was a little store there on Gilmore
Road there. That was Amigari, pretty well Amigari. All from
the Horton Steel over was Amigari. Over that way. It used to
be Jackson's Store. It was right on the corner there where...the
first road from the railway tracks. There's all lumber across
from it now.
S.R:
Could you tell me who your neighbours were when you were growing
up?
(
R.B:
Yes. There was people by the name of Britnell lived next door
to us. And there was Flake's lived on the other side of us, Frank
Flake. There was people lived further down called Jones. I don't
(3)
�know, remember his first name. But I remember one time my
brother and I was in there when we was kids, and they had little
(
peach trees next to 'em, and we was in there taking the peaches
and we had our caps off. We had them full and she come and
we run and left the caps and all. It was some years afterwards
that we moved next door, next door to them, and she kept calling
us kids to give us a hat and we was scared because we was thinking
of the peaches, so finally she give them to my mother. Here's
the kids hats that had the peaches in.
S.R:
Back then, about how many neighbours, how many people lived
on a block?
R.B:
Well, where I am now, there was nothing here but bushes. Jarvis
Street is almost the same. There's a few differences. Jarvis
Street, back of the Pratt and Lambert, used to be the ball grounds.
Baseball. Then it was moved on this next corner down here.
The corner of Robinson, right on the corner, in that field over
there was baseball. Then over on Jarvis Street, back on the other
street, was behind the ball grounds, and there was people by the
name of Hannis's lived there. They were allowed to keep pigs
(
in Fort Erie. They had a pigpen there. Their son Charlie goes
up to bat and he hit a home run, and he hit it and it landed in
the pigpen. That's interesting isn't it?
S.R:
Could you describe Jarvis Street? Take me on a little memory
walk down Jarvis Street. What the street was like, store names
and owners.
R.B:
It seemed to be more hilly. It was just mud with some stone on
it. I had an uncle that lived on Jarvis Street, that had a livery
stable. In them days nothing come to the stores by truck, it come
to the station and it had to be walked from the station to the
stores, and that's why the livery men did a lot of that, as well
as delivered to homes. And he, right where the Royal Bank is
now, there home was. Back of it he had a barn because there
was an alley back there, and he kept his horses in the barn, and
he had his horse. Of course there was no automobiles in them
days. His name was William Brown, my father's brother.
(
S.R:
What about the other stores and store owner's name that you
can think of?
R.B:
Well there was a store right next to it that was called Ward Kraft
(4)
�Store. There is some of their ancestors are alive someplace yet.
(
That's about where the Canadian Tire is now. Well, where the
Canadian Tire used to be before they moved over there. And
I had another Uncle Pete who was a plumber in Fort Erie. He
was also the custodian to the town hall for years.
S.R:
What did Amigari have to offer?
R.B:
A railway run through there. The race track is there.
S.R:
Which railroad would that have been?
R.B:
It would be, at that time, the Grand Trunk. The CNR now. It
wasn't government owned. It was called Grand Trunk, and it run
through Amigari there. And there was a little yard over that
used to be cars stored into. On this side of the Royal Hotel there
was half a dozen tracks there. And the later years they had a
coal pile there. This would be during the J)epression years, the
thirties. They used to have a huge coal pile, oh there was hundreds,
and hundreds on tons. I didn't know why they stored it on the
ground there. Well when the Depression come along that was
really handy for a lot of the people. Almost any house in Amigari,
(
or even in this part of the town, you'd see black smoke coming
out of the chimneys. People not working, they'd carry the coal
away. Nobody bothered them.
S.R:
What, the Grand Trunk never ever said anything about people
taking their coal?
R.B:
No. They had detectives you know on the railways. We had one.
There's some of them living here today. But I think they, I don't
know they know but I think they did. They realized that people
was up against it. Oh, the Depression was bad. I was laid off
during the early thirties and we was on what they call the pogey,
they called it relief. We used to call it the pogey. I worked two
days a week for it. That's eight days a month for twenty-six dollars
a month. That's what I got.
S.R:
What did you have to do to work for it?
R.B:
Go down and report to the town shanty and dig a sewer or dig
a water line up or anything they had to do.
S.R:
(
Where is the town shanty?
R.B:
It was right where the fire hall is today across from the...on Jarvis
Street. You know where the fire hall is? That was a work shanty
before the fire hall was there.
(5)
�S.R:
(
Do you know when the three little villages became Fort Erie and
the reasons why?
R.B:
January the 1st, 1932, and the reason why was it... Fort Erie was
back in history, so they thought they'd take a name that had a
historical name to it. Where Bridge burg, you know, they was...they
had changed the names and Fort Erie does have an old history
on account of the Old Fort. That's why they took the name.
S.R:
ls there any other changes that you can... prominent changes that
have happened in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Well when they built the Fleet during the war, that caused a lot
of employment. Enough people worked there. At one time in
Fort Erie you was either railway men or customs officers. There
was no other jobs. They used to have a little mail car. Mail used
to come in by railway. The man had to go over to the station
to pick the mail up. He had a cart with two wheels, and he used
to bring it back over to the post office from there. And he'd
take all the outgoing mail.
S.R:
(
What did Fort Erie have to offer in sports?
R.B:
Baseball. We played a lot of it even way back then. It was local...and
they used to have the play-offs, they'd go to the other cities and
play them off. One year there was a special train out of Fort
Erie. With it being as small as it is. .. to go to a baseball game.
And if I remember right, I think it was up north. I think it was
a place called Deloro. They run a special train out even. To
give you some more information onto it, when you went down
town and went to the stores or to the barber shop...closed 'till
after ball game. We'll be open after ball game. We didn't go
to school either. That's right because nobody had cars. Oh, you'd
go down there and there would be two or three thousand people
sat around and watched the ball game. Now this is...this time
I told you the ball game was over here. They moved the ball ground
down by the river where... you know where it is today , at the
end of Bowen Road there. The first house as you was going down
Central, that big house there, there used to be people by the name
of Day moved there. When we were boys, he's older, he was called
Homer. So I seen him a while ago and I says, when they used
to hit a ball way up there, and it landed in your lawn it was a
home run. ls that why they call you Homer? He laughed
but I don't suppose that was it.
(6)
�S.R:
(
Was there any famous teams at all? Any really, really popular
teams in Fort Erie?
R.B:
Yes. They almost went to the championship...they went to the
championship one year but I can't remember what year. I think
they just got beat out by the last team. The championship of
Ontario. They were Bridgeburg Mentholatum's.
S.R:
Do you remember any of the players?
R.B:
Oh yes, yes. Ray Young, Williamson. He was almost a big leaguer
here. Jack Williamson was a pitcher. Hall was the catcher.
Tommy Frazer, first base. Wess Towers, Bruce Hogue, he was
well enough to be the post master a while back. R. Atwood, he
was the undertaker later on. Charlie Hannis, the fellow I told
you hit the ball in the pigpen.
S.R:
In the old arena in Fort Erie, what activities used to go on there?
R.B:
Hockey, hockey, hockey is all I know. The Bisons played there.
That was their home team, home arena. And during the Depression,
nobody had much money or anything, so what they used to do...they
didn't smoke in there, and between periods, you know the three
periods in hockey, they'd open the door and they'd go outside and
(
smoke. Then they'd come in for their next period. Well they
had pass out checks for when they come back in, so an old fellow
that worked in there, he give me the pass out checks. They had
different colours each week. Well he give me one of all the colours.
I'd go up between, after the first period and get in. He'd show
me which seats wasn't occupied. I was getting in for nothing
seeing the last two periods. Well, if you didn't have any money
you didn't ... ! realize it was cheap, but nobody had anything in
them days, and I walked from here up to there. You know where
the arena is. It's in the same place. Oh, you didn't mind it.
S.R:
Was the arena the same as it is now?
R.B:
No, they made some changes in it. The arena was...we had the
big snow in 1937 I think it was, or'36, '37 ...the arena caved in
because the snow got too heavy on the roof. It fell down March
17, 1936.
S.R:
Was anybody hurt or was it occupied at the time?
R.B:
No, nobody was hurt. It was in the early hours of the morning.
No, nobody was hurt. They rebuilt on the same spot now again.
That's in the same place, the one there now.
(7)
�S.R:
(
Were you involved in any sports?
R.B:
Oh yeah, I played softball. I played for the West Ends. We was
the champions of Fort Erie.
S.R:
What year was that?
R.B:
Several years.. !28, 129, 130. I can show you some pictures of them.
So anyway, I got laid off when the war was over. .. it was being
the first world war was on, and I went to work for the Pratt and
Lamberts. The players from the Falls sent pitchers to beat us.
Nobody could beat us in Fort Erie. At one time we was playing
a junior team, another team, I forget their name, but it was run
by the merchants of Fort Erie. And anyways it was three out
of five, the championship. We lost the first two games.
There
was a fellow betting on us, and we won the next three. He said,
oh you fellows did that on purpose. Well he don't know we had
a meeting after losing those two games and was sure we was done.
How we ever got out of it I don't know, but we won the next three.
S.R:
So you won the championship again?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah. Then I played for McMorrans. We, the West Ends
and McMorran, he first come to town and started his tailor shop
(
down here, sold men's clothes. And anyways, he backed us up
and made our sweaters. We used to... well we was a good smart
outfit. But I'll tell you what we used to do. We used to run card
parties in the winter, and everybody would donate their home.
Maisie's mother and father did. We'd go to a different home and
have tea and we'd pay a quarter, or whatever it was, then we
had enough money to buy our sweaters with. You know our organization
was...and Maisie's father used to take up a collection for us at
the games and that helped pay for things too. And boy when he
took up a collection, he'd walk a mile if someone was a mile away, with
a hat. Albert Keenan was her father. He was a boiler maker
on the railway.
S.R:
Do you remember when the fire department started in Fort Erie?
R.B:
I don't remember the exact day when it started, but I remember
the old tbwn half was; a wooden building and it had a little square
glass, about six inches square, you broke out and you reached
(
the rope and you pulled the bell. That's what let you know when
there was a fire. The bell rang. Frank Benner was just around
the corner, the fire hall was on Central near the back end where
(8)
�the town hall is today. Frank Benner was down there on the other
side of Spears Garage there, and he had a team of horses. He come
(
with his horses. He put them horses on that fire wagon. Them
horses would just go crazy. That was really something.
S.R:
How did they get the fire out? What is a fire wagon?
R.B:
They had hoses and big pumps. They had a fire wagon. He'd pull
the fire wagon, the horses, and they had the hoses wound down
there and then they'd unwind them.
S.R:
So there was already town water?
R.B:
Oh yeah, yeah, there was town water, yeah.
S.R:
Do you remember what you had to do before there was town water?
R.B:
Well, I don't remember us not having water but I remember them
not having sewer and there were outside, outside, what we called
the back house in them days. Outside toilets and pay birds. And
they used to...well the, it used to be a fellow out in the country
you used to hire him every year, you know. That's when Eaton's
catalogue was handy. You never had any toilet paper and you always
hauled the Eaton's Catalogue up in the toilet. You know... pages.
(
S.R:
What was there to do for entertainment, such as on a date?
R.B:
Oh entertainment. Play cards... play cards, play euchre and went
to the show three times a week.
S.R:
Where's the show?
R.B:
It was on Dufferin Street.
S.R:
Do you remember the name and where on Dufferin Street?
R.B:
Yeah, the Bellard. There used to be two fellows that run it. I forget
their names. The Regent then, and then they sold it to the Ziffs.
That's when the Ziffs first come here, the whole family. And the
Ziff family really had run that show wonderful. And all of them
was part of it. Barney, which you know. You know Barney don't
ya? Well he had the bowling alley up at the other end, he run the
picture machine. His sister played the piano up at the front. In
them days they played the piano up at the front because it was
silent pictures when they first started. One of his sisters sold the
tickets and...the mother. And one of the sisters took them as you
went in. The whole family and it was a hard...and I just said today
there was one of them from that family. They're really hard working,
wonderful...and they're Jewish people. Wonderful people.
S.R:
What was the name before it was the Bellard?
(9)
�R.B:
(
The Regent run by a Captain Highland. Yeah, Captain Highland,
yeah. And they'd get drunk and they wouldn't light the fire because
there was only two stoves and everybody would freeze and go home.
Well when the Ziffs came they rebuilt it, then it was called the
Bellard.
S.R:
Do you remember when the Bertie Fair at the Old Fort Erie Race
Track took place?
R.B:
Yes, I certainly do.
S.R:
Do you remember the years?
R.B:
Well one particular year my wife put peaches into it and won a
prize for her canned peaches. That was in 1935 , or somewhere
in there. So, that everybody used to get first prize for their canned
peaches and all, you know it was fun, more fun.
S.R:
Would you be able to guess when it started or when it finished?
R.B:
1897 the track was built because that's when my sister was born.
She always talked about it, that she was born when the Race Track
started.
S.R:
(
The Bertie Fair started at the same time?
R.B:
I can't tell you when it started. It's been there as long as
I
remember.
That's all I can say, because we used to get a quarter to go to the
Bertie Fair when we was kids, and that had to last you all day...well
you could buy a hot dog for a nickle, sure. But it had to last you
all day. That's all you got. Then we used to go to Crystal Beach...a
farmer's picnic. Every year, they called it, the farmers had a picnic.
My ancestors on both sides was farmers. You know way back.
We used to go down here and get on a train and go as far as Ridgeway.
We'd get off at Ridgeway and get on a horse bus with benches along
the sides, with two horses, and they'd take you into Crystal Beach.
S.R:
Into the Amusement Park?
RJH:
Yeah, you go into the park and everybody took a lunch you know...a
basket full of food. Oh there was all kinds of food. The farmers
had stuff and they was trying to give it to somebody else, you know?
It was a real, real picnic, real get-together... wonderful.
S.R:
Could you describe the Amusement Park, the way it was then?
What rides they had, attractions.
(
R.B:
Well, it was a...cars used to go around, used to whip around...what
did they call them on the floor there... Crack the Whip. And there
was a, the thing that goes up and down, you know the Cyclone,
(IO)
�or something they call it... Roller Coaster. And the Merry-go-Round,
and there was a Fun House there too. And then there was a Hupity
Dumps. It went like this. You get up at the top and you sit down
and you slid down. Bumpity-Bumps they called it. You slide all
the way...it was all made smooth you know, it wouldn't hurt you
or nothing. And we all just could stay on there for hours. Then
later on they brought in the skating rink. You could rent the skates
and skate in the skating rink.
S.R:
Ice skates or roller skates?
R.B:
Roller Skates.
S.R:
Oh, the one that's across from the Amusement Park right now,
or was it in the Amusement Park itself then?
R.B:
It was in the Amusement Park itself. I think it was about where
the dance hall is now, if I remember right. You know where the
dance hall is now at Crystal Beach?
S.R:
Could you describe the dance Hall?
R.B:
Yes I remember. .! never danced but I can remember looking into
.
it. I remember hearing the music. I can't tell you too much about
it. I know there was a place where you stand along the edges and
watch them dancers in there. It was kind of roped off like a railing
all the way around. You could stand here and here and here and
there was dancing in the centre. The orchestra set up, well they
had...
S.R:
Did any famous orchestras go there? Would you know that, or was
it just local bands?
R.B:
I think so, but not dancing I...it's not in my memory. See, I never
did dance. When we danced all we ever did was square dancing.
S.R:
On those farmers picnics?
S.R:
Do you remember the riot in 1969 at Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I remember hearing of it.
S.R:
But you don't know what it involved or what happened or anything?
R.B:
Well I think it involved mostly Americans wasn't it? Blacks and
whites from Buffalo. I'm not absolutely sure of that, but I think
that's it. I don't think there were Canadians involved in that as
I know of.
S.R:
Do you know why it started at all? Do you remember?
R.B:
The difference between the blacks and whites. Whatever their
differences was I don't know.
(11)
�S.R:
(
Do you know what the Sand Quarry was?
R.B:
The Sand Quarry, no. Oh, where they used to go swimming. They
used to go swimming in there.
S.R:
The Ontario Hotel, did you ever visit there?
R.B:
The Ontario Hotel. I can't remember.
S.R:
Do you remember anything about Ridge Dairy in Crystal Beach?
R.B:
Ah, yeah, I don't know whether it's in the same place as it is now.
I can't remember much about it. I remember going by it.
S.R:
Did the people from Fort Erie have very much to do with the people
from Ridgeway or Stevensville or Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I'd say no most of the time. Not unless it happened to be plumbers
or carpenters or someone that went back and forth like that. Being
on the railway, and most of the people I worked with, my friends
worked on the railway. They were all here. But a few come in
from the farm, but not too many.
S.R:
So there were no reasons why, political type reasons or anything,
why you didn't?
R.B:
Oh, no, no, no ... there was no hard feelings or anything like that.
It was generally, generally the whole area voted for the same person
(
anyway. See Crystal Beach and Ridgeway and everything else vote
for the same peole, don't they?
Well they used to be way back...ther:e
used to be a lawyer in Welland by the name of German. He was
elected the...continuous, all the time. He was always...but he was
Liberal. A fellow by the name of Willson used to sell Ford cars
in Ridgeway. He... I voted...he was a Conservative. I voted for
him once.
S.R:
Was that when it was mayor or what would there... ?
R.B:
Back in the 20's. Ridgeway at that time, I think it was called... Bertie
Township had their own police force then, you know, and Fort Erie had
their own police force. And what happened, see Ridgeway was a town
of their own... it wasn't the Fort Erie now. Stevensville was a town of
their own. Well they never had sewers there or anything else, so then
they became Bertie Township. They had their own police force. So when
the Fort Erie... it was declared Fort Erie1they repainted all the police cars.
A short time afterwards, I can't remember exactly, very short, they became
Regional and they repainted them again. The policemen was all Regional
Policemen...not the Fort Erie or Ridgeway or, they're just Regional now...all
the police force.
(12)
�S.R:
(
Do you remember the Peg-Leg Railroad going into Crystal Beach?
R.B:
I can't say I do. I worked on the Paddy Miles train. Paddy Miles
used to know all the Niagara Branch. He used to run right into
Niagara-on-the-Lake. There used to be a train run every day.
S.R:
It came to Fort Erie?
R.B:
It come to Fort Erie and it used to come out...and we used to tend
to the engine, because the engines had to be attended at the end
of the trip all the time.
S.R:
There were two railroad yards in Fort Erie. What railroad yard
would it have come to then?
R.B:
It come to the New York Central yard. Michigan Central at the
time. See that name changes over the years. That was Michigan
Central before it was New York Central.
S. R:
What yard ... where was it located?
R.B:
Right up here at the end of Phipps Street. You wouldn't remember.
You know that factory up at the end of Phipps Street, Graham
Manufacturing, well there was a round house there. I worked there
and
(
I
just lived across the road from it. I'd be to work in one minute.
It was what you call a round house. You know what a round house
is? That's what they keep locomotives in. Then when you went
into the round house, it was round like this, there was tracks in
for each engine. You come onto a turntable. A turntable was big
enough to hold the engines in. They had an electric motor and
you'd push it around until it come to the track you wanted to put
it onto. Why you put it into the round house? , ,It had pits underneath
between the tracks so the machines could get underneath and repair
what was underneath. They couldn't do it when they were on the
tracks down like that.
S. R:
What year did you start working on the railroad?
R.B:
1923. Oh I started on the CN in 1920.
S. R:
Was the CN in the same place?
R.B:
The CN, I worked in the yard office and I was call boy and then
I got to be a checker.
S. R:
The CN was in this place you were talking about with the round
house?
(
R.B:
No, no. Later on the round house was on... CN I worked at the yard
office. See that was in the checking department. Where they check
the cars. The round house was on Michigan Central. In 1923 I started
there.
(13)
�S.R:
(
Where was the CN yard?
R.B:
Where it is now. They had a round house too. They tore it down
on account of the diesels.
S.R:
Oh, so the CN was in the Amigari area?
R.B:
Yeah, oh yeah. Now...see the diesel engines, when the diesel engines
.
came in 1944.. by the way,a steam engine had to be renewed at
the end of each trip. You had to clean the fire, get the clinkers
out of it, you had to load the tank with coal, machines had to go
around and grease all of the rods.. .where a diesel is roller bearing.
They can go hundreds and hundreds of miles with nothing done to
them. But they laid off hundreds of men. That's what done away
with us. They closed the shop completely on account of the diesels.
S.R:
Just like computers are doing now?
R.B:
That's right, that's right. You explained it.
S.R:
How many tracks were there when you got started? The difference
between when you started and then when expansion came.
R.B:
Well, our...we always had double tracks, east bound and west bound.
On the trains you'd keep going. But the Grand Trunk which is CNR
they used to have single tracks. It means, with a single track, that
(
you have to have what they call sidings. If a train's going that
way and one's coming this way, he goes in the sidings to let it by.
That makes it longer going over the road. But the New York Central
used to call it the Americas Speedway because it run from Detroit
to Saint Thomas to Fort Erie. And you have divisions. From Fort
Erie to Saint Thomas in one division and Saint Thomas to Windsor
in another division. There's a tunnel underneath the river at Windsor
where they meet the train tunnel. It's been there for years. I don't
know when it was built. So the reasons why you had divisions is
this. There's about a hundred and sixteen miles from here to Saint
Thomas by railway, and about a hundred and eighteen from Saint
Thomas to Windsor. Well, an engineer, or fireman, or brakemen
working on a train, a hundred miles is eight hours pay.
S.R:
Did it take eight hours?
R.B:
No. If you was on a passenger train you could be over there in
a couple of hours and you got eight hours pay. And when they went
from here they got a hundred and sixteen miles, so they got sixteen
into a hundred. More than a days pay, you see? Well they went
up and back in the same day so they used to run by mileage and
(14)
�the freightmen was allowed thirty-eight hundred miles a month
and a passenger forty-six.
(
Well if you go... if you go from here to
Windsor and back in the same day, you had it four times.
four days in.
You had
So, they used to do ... when their time was in they'd
take the rest of the month off.
be paid once a month.
But they found out... they used to
What you earned from the first to the fifteenth,
you got on the twenty-third, and what you earned from the fifteenth
to the last of the month, you was paid on the nineth... so the nineth
and twenty-third was paydays.
So they found that by getting their
time in the first of the month, and taking off the end of the month,
the second pay they had nothing coming.
So what they did was,
they would layoff a few days to keep that down so halfs would be
alright.
We always had a spareboard ... four or five men on the spareboard.
You call them off when they're laid off.
down.
See they keep their mileage
See, if they're allowed thirty-eight hundred, you try to get
nineteen hundred each half.
In the first half of the month if you
had nineteen hundred by the tenth, you'd take five days off.
that's the way they done it.
See,
But see, well anyway, when they started
the five days a week... see I worked seven days a week up until
(
1954... when
they started at five days a week, why they gave us six days pay
for five.
We lost one days pay.
Well all the fellows that worked
in the yard though... you see on the yard you had regular shifts, four
to twelve, twelve to eight, and eight to four.
eight hours.
That's all they got,
But the fellows that was in the yard, when they come
to five days a week, all went back on the main line where they got
this mileage I was telling you about, thirty-eight hundred miles
a month.
See, the money was higher on the line but sometimes
you were away from home.
See that's why they got a boarding house
down there by the CNR Station: You know where the boarding house
is there?
Well that's for main line.
See, when they come in from
Saint Thomas well they go to bed and have a nice rest before they
go out the next day.
S.R:
R.B:
Yeah.
S.R:
(
It's on Lewis Street?
Did the CN help at all during the Depression?
off?
Were people laid
Did they help out any of the workers?
R.B:
During the Depression the bosses were terrible.
S.R:
Why, and what do you mean?
(15 )
�R.B:
Well, if they give you a bawling out, which we say raise hell with
us, a bawling out for something that you know damn well you didn't
do, you know what our boss used to say to us?
work here.
You don't have to
There's a sidewalk over there.
S.R:
They knew you had to have that job to make sure
R.B:
If you had a wife and family at home what did you do?
to take it.
• • •
You had
You stood there with your fist behind your back.
of the bosses was a lot different.
Some
There was some good ones too.
But the ones that was rotten, was really rotten.
The unions today,
I'm sore at the unions today, but there's one good thing they did,
they stopped a lot of that.
There used to be a lot of discrimination.
S.R:
When did the unions come in?
R.B:
Well, I don't know.
They come in gradually.
the railway it was later.
(
• • •
I was what you call a
Now, do you know what a hostler is?
S.R:
No.
R.B:
Alright, I'm going to go back for you now.
Years ago when the people
had horses and the lady was out riding, when she come back in, she
turned the horse over to the stable hand, and he looked after the
horse and put it away.
locomotives.
That's what a hostler is.
But I did it with
When a locomotive come into the round house, the
engineer got off, he was done.
I run that locomotive up to the coal
dock for the labourers to put coal into it.
See on the railway I was
an engineer inside the round house, but not on the main line.
run that down to the
cleaned the fires.
• ..
• • •
• • •
a cinder pit.
underneath the fire box there was a pit and
you opened a thing and all the ashes went down in there.
cleaned that fire and did all
•.•
And they
because after all, they burned maybe
twenty ton of coal between here and Saint Thomas.
a lot of ashes down in that ash pan.
the fire.
I would
what they called the cinder pit, where they
The ashes went down into a pit
Because they had the
There'd be
You let it out and you cleaned
I didn't do that, the labourers did that, but I run the engines
down for it.
on
Then later on the machinists
See, there are different trades that have different unions.
There's a machinist union, then there was
hostler.
• • •
When I started on the railway there was
no unions for us at the round house at all.
got one.
They come in gradually
I run the engines down to the train table and we'd turn
it around, put it in the round house, and the machinists and boiler
makers would look after it.
They'd go underneath and he'd grease
(16)
�it and oil it.
(
Then when you backed the engine out of the turn table,
you had to turn the turn table out so it was headed west because
it would be headed east coming in.
That's why you had
and I'd
•••
bring them out and I'd have to go around a little channel to a little
side track and get it ready for the engineers.
turn table.
But I'd get it on the
See the unions wouldn't let me do the work, that was
labourers work.
But I'd set up an engine while he was running around.
Well I had a good job but
then when the diesel come oh
•••
had to do was back them up for them to put sand in.
sand
all they
.•.
Why they have
because the wheels could slip and they have a pipe that goes
•••
down, they turn the air on and it blows a little sand, it gives you
grit see.
And then they back them up for fuel oil.
the fuel oil into them.
And they put
That's all there is to it.
S.R:
Do you remember your bosses, what their names were?
R.B:
Wilfred Vye was one.
Roy Grice.
In
1923
The first boss I remember was a fellow called
that was, I remember him.
Then there was
Bert Olderieve during the depression years, I think he's got a son
in town here now.
(
Wilfred Vye was night foreman.
We had a fellow... then
later on the car department had their own foreman.
the name of Brindley.
A fellow by
Well later on they joined together and Mr.
Brindley was in charge of the car department and the locomotive
department, which we was both.
around town.
There's an old Wayne Brindley
Maybe you know some of them.
S.R:
What were derailment teams?
R.B:
Well, when the engine went off the track, why they
in the round house.
we had a derrick
•.•
It laid there... it had no fire or steam in it.
But as soon as we got work we put a fire into it to get steam.
It
had a big end on it, and you run your derrick out, a locomotive would
hook onto it and take it out where it was and lift it up.
used to run the derrick before he become foreman.
that?
Wilfred
Did he tell you
Yeah, he used to and I used to fire it for him.
S.R:
Oh, get it all going so you could take off.
R.B:
Yeah, so you could take off.
It was used so seldom but it laid around.
They put it in a place where it was stored, but ready in case, you
know in case they wanted it again.
(
And coal and everything in case,
so you could start a fire on it as soon as you got word, then you
could go out.
S.R:
You mentioned before that you were either a customs officer or
a railway man.
(17)
�R.B:
(
When I got laid off the railway in
of the truck companies.
I got a job working for one
1960
Which one was it now?
And I went up working
for the trucking company working at the Peace Bridge.
a lot of people don't know.
Here's what
All the freight that comes through,
a lot of it's got to be examined, and there has to be invoices with
it, and there's duties got to be paid.
they pay the duty.
That's what the brokers do,
Well, everybody thinks of a customs officer
as a man as you go through with your cars to the bridge.
there is a lot of them,
Which
but there's a lot of them back in there.
They've got to watch these trucks when they're unloaded and what's
on them, because there's stuff that could be smuggled in.
to
when I worked in the car
•••
We used
we'd take it all off and put it all
•••
on, on what they call the dock
pulled all those goods off, and what
•..
they had invoices in and Customs would say what they want.
We'd
take it up to the inspector and he'd open it up and look to see what
it was.
They wouldn't do everything but they spot checked.
there was an awful lot of comp
trucking companies.
(
trucks.
Well
they were companies back in there,
•••
You've seen them on the road, the different
And there's a lot of customs
There was appraisers too.
a lot of jobs back in there.
•••
Sometimes when things come through
they appraised the rate on it you see.
A lot of people don't know
that the duty must be paid directly, the brokers do.
They pay the
duty, the brokers, then the company pays the brokers.
paid whem it goes through.
The duty's
Now some stuff goes through in bond.
When it goes through in bond we don't do nothing wilh it.
It's got
a seal on it and wherever it goes there's got to be a customs officer.
If it's going someplace where there's no customs office
places don't have a customs officer
well most
•••
it's got to be cleared here.
•••
Well sometimes when the freight comes through, the invoices
don't know what happens
isn't there.
•••
They just put the
there until the invoices come through.
back in for the customs officers.
•••
!
it's kept
•••
See there's a lot of work
Do you know the customs officer
works back in the railway yards too for stuff going through
?
Oh
yeah.
S.R:
(
What do they do in the railway yard?
R.B:
Well they go and
they, one of them opens up the cars and inspects
•••
stuff if it's being imported or exported.
Oh yeah, it's a big job.
There's much more.
Maise's brother was a customs
No,my son-in-law
(18)
.••
�officer and he's pensioned off today.
He was in Toronto.
He worked
down here at the Peace Bridge and he worked at the head office
in Toronto.
My son-in-law was a customs officer, my daughters'
husband, and he worked at Fort Erie.
got another job.
Then he moved to St. Catharines
He had to go up to the ships going through the
canal and he had to go on the ships to do up the stuff
•••
Well then
he got a higher job and he went to London, and he used to go to
the airport out there to do their stuff up.
Now, he's in the head
office in... I don't know exactly what he does
he's in Hamilton.
•••
There's an awful lot of jobs for customs that people just don't know
about.
They just see them when they're going through the Peace
Bridge or at the Niagara Falls Bridge.
people.
There's lots of work for those
But you know, did you know that there's an awful lot of
lady customs officers today?
Did you see some of them come to
the bridge.
S.R:
I see in summertime they hire the college students.
R.B:
Now that's an ideal
job for a lady.
{
well there's regular ones now.
•••
I believe in that because it's
••.
That's an ideal
but I don't believe
in ladies out there picking, or shovelling or working on the railway,doing
that.
Customs officers they could be because it's not manual labour,
they've just got to use this...
S.R:
Your head, yeah.
R.B:
That's alright for a lady to do that.
there's a lot of background.
Oh yeah, customs officers,
They have a lot to do.
A lot of people
don't realize how much they've got to do.
S.R:
When talking of customs you mentioned about smuggling.
Do you
remember any of the goings on with smuggling back during the rum
running days?
R.B:
Yes, I remember quite well.
I remember the cars would come down,
railway cars full of beer, they'd come down there at the foot of
Courtwright Street.
There was a railway track just this side of
the International Bridge which crossed into the docks there, and
with a boxcar full of beer they'd load up the boats that's consigned
to Cuba
load the boats and they'd be back the next morning empty.
•••
They had been to Cuba off the Niagara River.
(
S.R:
Do you remember anything else smuggled other than alcohol?
R.B:
Oh yeah, there was quite a bit about it.
watch them, see.
We used to go down and
We used to watch the coast guards
(19)
•.•
! don't know.
he
•••
�I hate to say anything
(
they used to come out and shine that big
•••
light and go way down the river and all the boats would take off
full of beer.
S.R:
Oh, they'd wait until the coast guards were out of sight then?
R.B:
No.
That was a signal as far as I was concerned.
They were unloading
and back again before he come back up the river again.
there for hours watching it.
You figure, well
•••
We'd sit
! don't know if it
was a coincidence, unless they knew he'd be gone that long, I don't
know.
But it looked...
S.R:
Too much of a coincidence.
R.B:
It was suspicious anyway.
S.R:
Was there much violence involved with it?
R.B:
No not
S.R:
With the smuggling
••.
no there wasn't much violence like there is now.
••.
as far as the local police and the people doing
their duty trying to stop it?
R.B:
Well, I know fellows that used to bring loads from St. Catharines.
There's a brewery in St. Catharines called Taylor and Bates.
not sure if it was St. Catharines or Welland.
(
I'm
And they used to go
down and get a load in the back end of their car and bring it down
here, and they'd get twenty-five dollars for that.
were breaking the law.
Oh yeah, they
Some got caught and some didn't.
S.R:
What happened if they got caught?
R.B:
Oh, they got fined.
I never heard tell of anybody going to jail.
I don't remember what the fine was.
They made lots of money,
they could afford the fine.
S.R:
Did you hear anything about the Chinese people being smuggled?
R.B:
Yes, way back
..•
I'm not going to name the family but there was
a famous family, been around here for years.
name too.
I've no doubt you have.
Chinamen to
You've heard the
They used to smuggle
take
•••
and I know of a case, my father told me about this,
•••
because he remembered.
They rode up the river and they, the coast
guard or something would come along, I forget what they called
them in them days, they'd just dump them.
They all drowned.
S.R:
R.B:
{
Why didn't they swim?
Well, maybe they couldn't swim in the river or something, I don't
know.
Did they do something to make them drown?
But that river's pretty swift you know even good swimmers
drown. -Then another case where they used to take them over and
put them on the breakwall.
Well the breakwall over there, you still
(20)
�got to get through that water. You know another thing they used
to do in the later years? You know the basket that goes over the
Whirlpool in Niagara Falls? (they'd say) Go on that. Over on the
other side is the United States. They were still in Canada see.
They don't know. Because one time that used to get on both sides.
Now you can only get on one, this side. You used to be able to get
on the far side too as well.
S.R:
Oh, so people used to come over and bring stuff?
R.B:
No. It was all in Canada. See you go across the Whirlpool in that
basket, that's still Canada here. It's still Canada there. But that
round circle fools them...
S.R:
Oh, now I understand what you said, yeah. We were talking about
Crystal Beach before, could you compare Crystal Beach to Erie
Beach?
R.B:
No. I liked Erie Beach very much. That dance hall they used to
have there, and I never danced but I used to go and watch. It was
all right over the water. It was wonderful then. We used to, we
used to ...they had these four dolls and they're set up on a platform.
You had to knock them off with three balls. The Jewish people
run it. We had a fellow...and you got a box of chocolates. A pound
box in them days, or course chocolate was dear. And we had a guy
who was a baseball pitcher, he could knock them down. And there's
this little lady that used to say, oh please don't come play anymore.
Because you know, she says, you're breaking me. He'd go over there
and get a couple then he would, he would be... Oh yeah we like this
beachreal well. There was a little train that used to run to it. It
run from the ferry.
S.R:
Do you remember the name?
R.B:
They used to call it the Snake Hill and something. The ferry dock
used to be there. You know the ferry dock about...you know where
Agrette's Store is? On that side of the boulevard up.
S.R:
At the south end on the boulevard?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah. Well that's about where the dock was. But if you got
a high wind and the water got held up in the lake, the river would
lower and the boat couldn't dock. But that only happened on a rare
occasion. When we used to go...we used to go from one country
to the other for a nickle. And I was telling one of the old timers...what's
his name now, Ken Minor. He's about eighty-four, you can get information
(21)
�for him. I told him about going from one country to the other for
a nickle. He says, I can remember back farther than you. He said,
(
you used to get two tickets for a nickle. Yeah, Ken Minor, yeah.
S . R:
You said you like the dance hall, could you describe it?
R.B:
Yes, it...the dance hall was up above. It was over the water. Down
below was a hot dog stand and ice cream, different stuff like that.
You'd get it all in the other platforms. There used to be some...not
dancing I didn't bother with too much but it was a nice looking building.
S.R:
Was there anything else other than the big dance hall? What other
attractions were there?
R.B:
Well, there was Bumpity- Bumps and the Blue Streaks and the roller
skating and...oh what was that? In the boat when you went through
the tunnel and you went through a dark part. That's where you took
your girlfriend and you'd get a kiss when you got to it. I think they
called it the Tunnel Of Love. In them days that was all they kissed.
S.R:
And they had an olympic size pool?
R.B:
They had the largest, outdoor, freshwater pool in the world at that
time. On this side of the dance hall here. Oh yeah, the other side,
(
yeah.
S . R:
They had a track in a field or stadium, do you remember any events
that took place there? Did any famous people come?
R.B:
I can't remember anybody. I remember the car...my father worked
on the railway then, although he was a carpenter, and they used
to have a union. They used to have a picnic every year and they
used to have it at Erie Beach. Everybody took their own food, you
know, baskets and things like I told ya. Then they had races for
all the children. They'd have a thirty yard races. It was nothing,
just made up between ya's, you know. It wasn't a regular thing you
know, the unions did that in the car shop. That was going every
day for somebody. Oh yeah, there'd be different unions there. People
don't have much money, but they had a good time, they made a
good time. Everybody brought baskets of food, you always had food.
And everybody...if you didn't have much, somebody else had too
much...come on we don't want to take all this home.
S . R:
(
Everybody was willing to share, not like nowadays.
R.B:
Do you know we used to...I had an uncle killed on a motorcycle in
'18 or '19, somewhere.. . 1917, and they lived right down on the corner
of Dufferin Street and Robinson. There was no houses up this way,
(22)
�it was the last house. That house still sits there. There was so
(
much food come in from neighbours and stuff, she had to find a
place to give it to somebody else. We couldn't use it. They don't
do that anymore now... from neighbours and everybody. Of course,
don't forget, in them days ...this is, I don't like this subject but... he
wasn't taken to the funeral parlour, he was in a casket in your own
home, right in your front room. And you always used to have somebody
sit up with them every night, all night and it was three or four days
before he was bur ied. We always had somebody in the family sit
with them all night. You know why? I hate to get on this subject... rats ...dead
body. You see the houses didn't have basements in. I can remember
my grandmother was in our front room, wasn't she ? 1925 that was,
yeah. We lived on Jarvis Street. You don't know what a wonderful
world you have today.
S.R:
We have luxury compared to that.
R.B:
But ah, you know what I mean, we didn't know any different. We
were happy. In fact, I think we were happier than most people are
now because we didn't know... because we don't know about these
(
things. We played lots of games.
S.R:
What kind of games did you play?
R.B:
Snakes and Ladders, Run Sheep Run, Tap The Icebox. In Run Sheep
Run you choose up sides, and then maybe, it' s according to how
many you got. Say we got twelve, six on this side and six on that
side and you have a leader. Each one elects a leader. He takes
his fellows out and he hides them and you come and take your six
and go and find them. And when you're looking for them ...now this
place where you start is call your goal. You generally use a telegraph
pole or something like that. He would say ... the opposite leader
that hid his men would come back and you had to go and search
and he'd go with you. Well, when he figured he was far enough away,
that his men was closer, he'd holler Run Sheep Run, and if they
got back first he lost.
S.R:
Something like Hide And Go Seek is today?
R.B:
Yeah, Hide And Seek. Tap The Icebox, you remember that, you
played that. Well that's very much like Hide And Go Seek, only
(
somebody hid their eyes on a pole... always a pole. They'd tap you
on the back and you had to turn around and guess who it was. If
you guessed, well then they had to take a turn, and if you didn't
(23)
�guess everybody went and hid. We used to play Palm Palm Pull
(
Away. I bet you never heard tell of that. All right, ya choose up
sides, and somebody got on each side of. .. say a lawn or a small park,
a small place. This side one gang, and one gang on this side and
there'd be so many guys in the centre. You had to run across like
that without them touching ya. You'd wait for somebody to run
and they'd run right through. Then you got on that side and whoever
had the most guys on the opposite side they started out from won.
We used to play it at school...recess. And you played tag I'm sure.
Oh yeah, we ... you had... well we never used to... see all the parcels
you got from the store in them days wasn't done like now, they were
done up in strings. Nothing come, your sugar was all in bags and
he'd put it in a smaller thing and do it up with string. See he didn't
have it up on the shelves and it didn't come like it does now. And
even if you got crackers, they come and take them and put them
in your bag. And everything was. . . save that string and we used
to wind it and make a ball out of it, then wrap tape around it. That's
what we used to play ball out in the field there with when we were
(
kids.
S.R:
Oh, a ball for catch or playing stickball or something like that?
R.B:
Yeah, yeah, and they used to play football over there in this field.
Right over here. And right over here at this store, right up at this
little store on the corner was a garage.
S.R:
Simpson's Store?
R.B:
Yeah, this little store right here, Simpson's. This little store here,
there was nothing... there was nothing over in that field, and we
used to play ball over there, and he used to see us playing ball... and
that's the picture Wilfred Vye showed you. That's where we used
to play. That's where that picture was taken, right across from
there. And anyways, he seen all these people around, and he thought,
gee, I'll get pop in. And he started selling a lot of pop.... you know
all those people over there in the hot weather. Then pretty soon
he had a few groceries on the shelf. It gradually got to be a store,
gradually over the years.
S.R:
(
Oh, so that's how it became a store then?
R.B:
That's how it began. It was a gasoline station when it first started.
S.R:
You mentioned before about the ferries, why did people go to Buffalo
so much? Why didn't they just buy their stuff here or have their
(24)
�entertainment here?
(
R.B:
Well, you don't get the entertainment in a small town you get in
a big city, you don't have the facilities.
a lot to go to the show.
We used to go over there
I can remember when there was no show
in Fort Erie in my time, when we used to go over on a little car.
It used to go across this bridge . . . there was no Peace Bridge.
called it the Dummy.
They
You've heard that expression about it before.
It had seats into it and there was a customs officer rode it with
me on the way over so it wouldn't hold it up .
You went down a
few steps. . . we called that Black Rock over there . . . and there was
two shows, there was the Amherst and the Jubilee.
on Sunday too.
They were open
We used to go over there to go to the show.
there used to be two
•
.
Then
There was a couple big stores over there.
There was Davis's and AB's, I think.
After the Peace Bridge went
up them stores went out of business.
Do you know why?
No business.
And if you wanted to go up into the city you got a street car up.
S.R:
Oh, one of the electric powered street cars?
R.B:
Yep .
(
With the overhead thing you know.
And they used to run one
up Niagara Street if you wanted to go up town.
But we didn't go
up to the city that often.
S.R:
Could you describe the dummy a little bit more?
R.B:
Well, it looked like a passenger car but one end of it had the motor
and the engineer and the fireman into it . . . electric .
get in that part.
You couldn't
And the other part had, like a bus, seats along
each side .. . double seats .. . wider than a bus because the seats was
double, two could sit in.
There was several, quite a few of them.
On a saturday night, you know, you used to have to watch the drunks
that would come from over there.
Booze and all that was out.
And another thing we used to do . .. my father used to go over to get
his beer . .. fish fries was free.
He'd take all us kids, and us kids didn't
drink any beer.
There was five of us and my mother, she didn't
drink any beer .
He only paid about a nickle for his beer and you
got fish.
You didn't have fish and chips in them days, you had fish
and potato salad, and it was free . . . we'd all have our fish and chips .
They used to have a free lunch counter in the bars in Buffalo.
(
another thing that they never had over here.
and meat and roast.
S.R:
They had sandwiches
All of you help yourself. .. free.
Just if you went in and bought a beer?
(25)
That's
�R.B:
(
Yeah.
That's before
' 20.
Then P rohibition came in.
I remember
taking Wilfred Vye, I guess I told you about this, taking his father
over.
My brother was in the Lafayette Hospital over there
was no hospital in Fort Erie.
in to get a beer
lunch counter
food.
• • •
• • •
•.•
there
I took Mr. Vye over and we stopped
he wasn't a heavy drinker.
We just had
• • •
this free
oh, he said, you must have, you can't have it free
I says it's free you know, help yourself
. • •
the
• ..
pretzels, big bowls
of pretzels.
S.R:
And you don't know why?
R.B:
No I wouldn't say that, I would say, you are comparing a village
with a city.
Was it just too cheap over here?
You can't compare them.
things like that.
See a village
don't have
. .•
See, Fort Erie was a village at one time.
Fort
Erie never had a mayor, Fort Erie had a reeve.
S.R:
Who was the first reeve that you remember?
R.B:
Mr. Hogue I think.
S.R:
Do you remember what year that would have been, approximately?
R.B:
I can't tell you for sure.
'15
(
to
' 20 .
Well,
1915-16,
or something
• • •
between
Hague's was an old family around here, you've heard
the name before I'm sure of that.
They had the
•.•
you know where
the Oddfellows Hall is on the corner of Jarvis and Central
flat building?
. • •
that
Well that was H ague's Store there, and I used to pull
a wagon around and deliver groceries for him every saturday... a
little wagon full of groceries
..•
just in the Fort Erie area.
S.R:
How much would you get for a saturday doing a little job like that?
R.B:
We used to get about a quarter.
That was Bridgeburg then.
didn't get much, as long as you got a little bit.
the Pratt and Lambert in
'19
When I started at
I got twelve dollars a week.
When
I started in the Pratt and Lambert in, the war was over, in
I think it was.
In
1920
. • •
was making twelve dollars a week.
$49.60
know, I quit
1919
a friend of mine came down and said, there's
a callboy job open and it pays a hundred dollars a month
it was
You
and I
Well it wasn't quite a hundred,
every payday and you got paid twice a month.
You
that job at noon and went and started at four o'clock
over there.
S.R:
That was on the railroad?
R.B:
Yeah.
S.R:
Why was it that the Grand Trunk paid so much more than the other
On the Grand Trunk
places?
(26)
�R.B:
They didn't pay more than the other places, Pratt and Lambert's
paid less than the other places.
(
That's what it was.
New York Central
paid more than the Grand Trunk did.
S.R:
The Grand Trunk is the CN now?
R.B:
Yeah, and the Grand Trunk
•.•
I guess he's in his nineties.
he worked on the CNR.
! got a fellow, a man down the road,
He was on the same job as I was on and
He was a hostler doing the same kind of
work but working for the CNR, which it was the Grand Trunk, and
this is in the later years, I was making five dollars a day more, doing
the same work working for an American railroad.
S.R:
You were making five dollars a day more than him?
R.B:
He was making sixteen something and I was making twenty-one
something.
That's the biggest salary I ever made.
And do you know
I only made about five thousand dollars once in my life.
fifty-two hundred in a year.
Erie and they go on strike.
a car.
(
And now It's the best money in Fort
And we got a home, but I never had
I was almost fifty before I had a car.
pay for our home.
I made
I walked to work to
It's paying off today though isn't it?
S.R:
Yes, the way the prices of them are today.
S.R:
Would you know what year the Peace Bridge was built or opened?
R.B:
1928
S.R:
Did they have anything special for the opening?
R.B:
Yeah, the Prince of W
•..
'29, ' 28.
ales was there and there was several people
from the States that was important too.
I forget who it was, and
they met right in the middle of the bridge like... to open it up.
S.R:
What kind of festivities did they have?
R.B:
Well, I was on down the river to see all the people lined up waiting
for them to come
.•.
they knew he was coming.
I didn't go up to
the bridge you see, but I guess they had quite a do up there you
know, speakers and things like that.
a do at the Peace Bridge.
But, yeah, there was quite
We were also there for the fiftieth anniversary.
S.R:
Could you describe that, the fiftieth anniversary?
R.B:
Greg Wilson spoke.
then?
He was chairman wasn't he, of the Bridge Committee
That's been a lot of.
did you realize that the Peace Bridge
••
cars come by than any other port between Canada and the United
States, and in Detroit and Windsor it's bigger than us?
More cars
cross this Peace Bridge than any place there is access between the
two countries.
(27)
more
• ..
�S.R:
(
Would you know any reason why?
R.B:
I don 't know why, ah, because they have to go through this way to
go to Toronto and
Could you hazzard a guess ?
..•
S.R:
Oh, to get to another major city?
R.B:
Majors cities ... Toronto.
S.R:
And we have the Race Track and Crystal Beach and
R.B:
Well , that keeps your Race Track going up here.
.•.
You know that
ninety percent is from the other side of the , across the river.
Have
you ever come across the Peace Bridge when the races was on?
Then you know what I mean.
S.R:
It's jammed.
S.R:
Is there anything else from way back when, that you can think of
that you'd like to add?
R.B:
Yes.
boy
I can think of.
my, on my grandfather's farm when I was a
••
•••
S.R:
Where would that be?
R.B:
At Ridgemount, seven miles out of town , near the graveyard at
Ridgemount , the farm was very close to it
(
dances in the winter.
we used to have square
•••
He used to come in what you call the hay
racker , a big rack , and he filled it all full of straw, and he'd take
all the people out.
There would be twenty-five or thirty people
on there all sitting in ' t,he straw with blankets , and they'd be singing
all the way out because there wasn't no music
the square dancing.
and they'd have
.••
We s quare danced quite a bit in the winter
becasue the farmers generally wasn 't busy in the winter.
generally got to feed his cattle.
over there in his house.
He's only
We used to have square dances
And this original coloured man, his name
was Lam Bright, the grandfather of all these people, played the
big bull-fiddle , and he was a great friend of my grandfathers , and
that's why my grandfather donated that property at the end there.
S.R:
Oh , and you said the original coloured man?
R.B:
The original coloured man , yes one of the originals.
their mother was a white woman.
a boy.
I remember her from when I was
So they're half and half like.
I can hear him yet with his kids.
But these Brights ,
Oh yeah, remember the old
They used to take use kids out ,
the mother and father would , they'd take us up and put us to bed.
But we could hear them dancing down below in the parlour.
S.R:
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
(28)
but
.••
�R.B:
(
Well, I told you about my father, he was born in
all said he was a year older than Canada.
and Canada became a country in
a year older than Canada.
father's parents
186 7 .
' 66,
didn't I?
They
Well, he was born in
1866,
He always said he was older,
His parents come from Edinbourgh, my
mother and father.
.••
S.R:
From where?
R.B:
Edinb urgh, Scotland.
mother's side.
See, the old ones ways back was from my
The Dennehower's we're talking about from
•.•
Browns come from Edinb urgh Scotland.
The
I've been in Edinb ·urgh
in the wartime.
S.R:
What was
•..
you said your father was born a year before Canada
became Canada
R.B:
a country.
•..
What was it before then?
Well it was Upper Canada and all that7but it joined as one in
186 6 .
See it was only a hundred years old.
You remember that, not too
long ago
I should say.
in
•••
196 6 ,
yeah.
But ah,
'67 ,
Yeah , well there
was Upper Canada and Lower Canada and all that.
Niagara-on-the-Lake was called Newark.
of Upper Canada.
(
See that's when
That was the capital
But I don't know too much about it.
S.R:
Is there anything you'd like to add in closing?
R.B:
Yeah.
My grandfather had a thrashing engine, and he used to do
thrashing for all the farmers in them days.
be mud.
All the roads used to
There happened to be rain, and when they went to one
farm they had to have eight or ten teams of horses pulling this big
iron machine out to get there.
When they would thrash it, the wheat
of each farmer, all the different farm women would come and cook.
And all the pies and cakes, oh boy, us little kids would go out there
and oh those good homemade pies.
Oh, really nice, yeah.
that's the way they lived in them days.
But they,
And my grandfather was,
they say the Germans is mean, but there was never a fencepost
crooked on that farm.
went
When you went through that little gate that
and went into the front of the house and left it open, oh he
••.
was stern.
But ah, no it's a, why I always remember my
see I never
.••
seen my father's father, I seen the grandma, I never seen the father.
I don't know what he looked like even.
And Maisie and I went up,
we were trying to look up the old farm, it's up near, you know a
(
place called York?
through there?
It's on that river.
What's that river that runs
It's on the Grand River.
tried to trace it, because
So we was up, but we just
do you know Bob Wilson ?
••.
(29)
He used to
�be a customs officer, he's retired, well he's a
(
father's sister's daughter.
up.
his mother was my
• ••
You know, we tried to look the family
So he's taking it from the other side but the Brown's can't go
too far because the great grandmother and great grandfather, they
both come from Edinb urgh, that's all I know about them.
that I don't know anything.
S.R:
Thank you for the interview Mr. Brown.
R.B:
And thank you very much, you've been very nice.
S.R:
Thank you.
(
(3 0)
Before
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crystal Beach
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crystal Beach, Ontario
Description
An account of the resource
Select historical photos and documents digitized from the Fort Erie local history and Louis McDermott collections
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
FEPL -LH - Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fort Erie Public Library and Louis McDermott
Document
A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview.
Shelley RIcher
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed.
Ross Brown
Location
The location of the interview.
Mr. Brown's home at 5 Jessie Street, Fort Erie
Original Format
If the image is of an object, state the type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Cassette tape
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History - Brown, Ross
Description
An account of the resource
Provided here is Ross Brown's interview. He discusses such topics as:
Schools
Churches
North End
Fleet
Sports
Crystal Beach Amusement Park
Railroad
Recreation
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Fort Erie Public Library Local History Collection
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
July 19, 1985
1980s
1985
churches
Crystal Beach amusement park
Fleet
Fort Erie
north end
Oral history
railroad
recreation
schools
sports
transcripts